@PF

Nice to see you coming to America and congrats on having a fiance! I usually head up around PA during the Holidays to visit with my grandmother. Through i probably wont be able to drop bye and meet you in person. Have a safe trip over. Beware of the terrorists.

@PF

Sucks how close you were to the crash site.

Now that your moving to America does that mean about 90% of the site is American or so? Just a really rough estimate. I’m a bit tired. See you tomorrow.

“Man, 9,11. Why haven’t people gotten over it yet? Sure a whole heap of people died but in the nicest why possible, why do presidents and stuff bring it up? It happened a long time ago. So I would ask why it is still such a weird topic.”

David you just stepped into a pile of shit. 3000 innocent souls were murdered in cold blood. Killed by pure evil. Because of this the world will never be the same. On that day history had changed forever things are never going back the way they were. The 910 was the last day of foolness and blindness to the dangers of the outside world. 912 we learned that in order to insure freedom and security for the free world from this most evil of beings we had to fight them on their lands their blood. 911 tought us that if we don’t fight them over there then the war they decleared on us will be fought on our land and our blood will be lost.

Like it or not the world changed forever on that day and it’s never going back. On 912 the day after the 911 we took a silent oath that it will never happen again and pray that future generations will learn that we must never let of defenses weaken to the point it can happen again.

Never Again

“You’ve said some dumb shit over the last few months but… c’mon… really?”

I am inclined to agree. This was pretty out there.

We are nearing a decade of the event that killed thousands of our civilians at a time of “peace” with our own resources, true enough, but the guilty party is still at large and with no apparent clue that might lead to their capture.

No, we are not forgetting 9/11 any time soon.

If anything 9-11 can be seen as a repeat of Pearl Harbor if you look at it the right way.

Man, you guys are all getting pissed off over nothing. Im Just saying that if the world got over WW2, we can all get over something like 9,11.

@ sapper

Yes I would be pissed that you had done that. MAybe even enough to KILL you. But I don’t really know. All I think is that violence begets violence, hatred begets hatred. You shot at those people who had killed your comrades, and for what purpose? Protection? Vengance?. Anger? Just so you know, the familes of the enemies you killed will hate you for the rest of their lives. Hatred begets hatred my friend, but you already know that……don’t you?

Thats all conflict is. Yell at me, I don’t care. Deep down, you know what happens

Ignorance? What, that I can analyse conflict and emotions? They are more complex then you think Kenny. Only its very simple to understand. Its like a ” you break my toy now I’ll break yours ” mentality.

Remove emotions from these sorts of things and everything becomes easier to read.

“Hatred begets hatred my friend”

While this is true David, consider the purpose of a government.
As a society, we release certain rights to the government, to gain certain rights. For example, you release your right to kill at will for the right to be not killed at will. When government fails to protect us from other’s intentions of murder, it is not doing its job and will change to do so. That is *partly* why 9 1 1 was such a big deal.

Wow David that was some crazy shit to say mon. How can you not understand why people haven’t gotten over it? Actually I know why. Cause you never been in a burn recovery ward before. Well I have and the smell of burnt flesh is something you’ll never forget if you lived to be a thousand. I volunteered in a hospital and I worked in the burn ward changing sheets, badges, ect. and to see people burnt to the fucking bone and that smell is something crazy. There were babies in there too and there were babies in that building.

No offence, but Pearl Harbour was sort of America’s fault. When you cut supplies to a country, it would be understandable to be quite pissed. Also, you gotta admit, the Planning and stratigy used was INCREDIBLE! The japenese won a decisive victory and they deserve to be commended for that victory. I’m not bashing the US, I’m saying from a battlefeild tactical veiw, Nice work.

“When you cut supplies to a country, it would be understandable to be quite pissed. Also, you gotta admit, the Planning and stratigy used was INCREDIBLE! The japenese won a decisive victory and they deserve to be commended for that victory. I’m not bashing the US, I’m saying from a battlefeild tactical veiw”

while your mentioning this given the direction of the discussion isn’t exactly smooth, I still disagree with the content as well.

What exactly did the Japanese win at Pearl Harbor? They attacked a base an unprepared base and caused some damage. Yet on the same day, I believe Churchill noted that the war had just been won. Pearl Harbor practically guaranteed the loss to the Axis forces. It was an enormous BLUNDER.

What does an attack that kill a thousand people matter when you provoke an entire nation to kill millions of your soldiers? Bloody nothing, that’s what. The Japanese single-handedly screwed Germany over. With America to fight Germany on the West, it had no chance of actually holding its new territory and would be crushed from both sides, and a similar predicament would occur to Japan, with its bloated pacific empire.

Even from the most emotionless, military standpoint, Pearl Harbor was about the same blunder in war as is giving up your queen for a pawn in Chess.

Now, had I been president, here’s what I would have done by now

Taken out Kim Jong IL…he is enslaving millions of people against their will, and he has threatened us with claims of nuclear weapons…he could use a good bombing or two…

Liberate Somalia…yeah, I know what happened during Black Hawk Down but this time we wouldn’t be fucking around…go in, kill the rabid insurgents (using as lethal of a force as possible), then restore power to some sort of leader

After those two I don’t think anything else is necessary…unless Iran, Russia, or China decide to declare war…

isn’t it time the United States, stop pussy footing around and starts taking control of unstable countries and establishing regional govenors,

i’m pretty sure if america gained control over most african nations, they could actually put i stop to the stavation, rampant uncontrolled diseases and massive wide scale war and terrorism.

within a few generations the countries would be prosperous was more producing not only enough food for themselves but enough to create substantial profits which could be sent back to the U.S. as payment for running the country as well as the new markets of business that will open up for america with the new resources they would gain from their new colony’s.

The people standard of living would vastly increase since the U.S. would create a better infastructure, with equally distrubted power, running hot and cold water and other amenities.

Lets all take a step back and breathe a little shall we?

David, whatever your personal views on the matter, you should note that events like 911 are not something a nation, or even the world, gets over quickly. I know people who lost friends in that, my parents had been at the crash site a day before doing the tourist thing.

Why won’t people get over it like they did World War 2? WHo say’s people are over world war 2? If anyone is old enough to have known about that war first hand, they won’t forget it. Hundreds of thousands of people the world over died for no reason, families were torn apart, whole countries were devastated and America unleashed a force the likes of which will hopefully never be seen again in the ultimate act of self sacrifice.

Yes, I know I’m often the first to jump at a chance to attack America if it’ll prove amusing, but no other country on earth would dare unleash a nuclear attack for fear of reprisal and world relations. America took that hit, and it worked, it might have gone the other way. However, it did open them up to being blamed by extremist groups for inhuman acts. That and the other meaningless reasons.

lets have a little respect for the dead shall we.

@ Baron and Shaun – You realise wars are not point and click wins right?
Attacking an entire country is a difficult process, on that takes planning, financing, theorising and pinpoint precision on every single order. and movement.

Korea is Dangerous. They have many many men at arms, and they know their ground well. They are well armed, and frankly Kim’s probably just insane enough to strap chemical weapons to his men so that even in death they[‘d be killing, meaning casualies would be enormous. Until they become an active international threat, they’ll be left alone. And even then, it’ll take some persuading to get countries to rise up against them, because no-one wants world war 3.

Now, can we please all shake hands and be friends again?

…Damn, i miss hippies sometimes.

“@ Baron and Shaun – You realise wars are not point and click wins right?
Attacking an entire country is a difficult process, on that takes planning, financing, theorising and pinpoint precision on every single order. and movement.

Korea is Dangerous. They have many many men at arms, and they know their ground well. They are well armed, and frankly Kim’s probably just insane enough to strap chemical weapons to his men so that even in death they[’d be killing, meaning casualies would be enormous. Until they become an active international threat, they’ll be left alone. And even then, it’ll take some persuading to get countries to rise up against them, because no-one wants world war 3.”

im quite aware of the logistics of warfare

however i was proposing the idea of american intervention in african nations not north korea.

Perhaps the best way to deal with NK is to somehow show the brain-washed population how crappy they have it and let the tides of revolution wash the military state away.

If we do have to fight NK, I don’t foresee too much of a problem thanks to SK and the sheer overwhelming force of the Pacific fleet. I would be more concerned with how China responds…. though my Grandpa (paratroop in Korea and Vietnam) would say “It’s time ta finish the job!” if they did do anything.

Ok, I left this thread a few days ago and return to a discussion of how we should be over 9/11, America needs to conquer African nations, and how to deal with North Korea? What the heck happened?!

First, David, you are partially right, in that the world will soon need to get over 9/11. Don’t mistake that we should not deliver justice to those who were the killers. Frankly I think that the New York City Trails for Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is a joke. But we should not let the loss of the innocents blind us with rage. I will agree to that point. However, this does not mean America should not search out and take out those terrorist who seek to harm her and the free world. I am probably one of the few Brits that actually supported Gitmo.

On the matter of WWII. Thousands, if not millions, should never forget who that world changed the entire geo-political, social, religious, and economical changes the war caused. I mean, for pete’s sake, look at the nation of Israel. They are a result of the war, and have been fighting for their existence since ‘48. WWII will never go away.

The notion that America should go out conquering African nations is just ridiculous at the moment. To argue for an Imperialistic America, is ignoring the reality of the American public. From my experience in America, and my friends, most Americans are probably against the notion of other wars. The only reason people argued for Iraq and Afghanistan, was not to conquer, but to eliminate threats. America is in no condition to start further wars, definitely not for imperialism and I would think, for democracy.

I am too tired to talk about North Korea. Just remember, that their leader has brainwashed his people into thinking he is nearly Divine, nearly all of their budget goes towards military spending, and they have the the worlds 4th largest army in terms of personal. Not an easy nut to crack.

- the pondering fool

All of you are seriously overestimating the trouble we would have to defeat NK. I’m not saying it would be easy, but the war would be a prime candidate for a motivational poster with ” Futile.”

Nk can field

“Active personnel 1,190,000(2008 est.)
Reserve personnel 4,700,000(2008 est.)

major combat units consisted of 153 divisions and brigades, including 60 infantry divisions/brigades, 25 mechanized infantry brigades, 13 tank brigades, 25 Special Operation Force (SOF) brigades and 30 artillery brigades

korean people navy

There are some 650 vessels including 3 frigates and 23 submarines

The Worker-Peasant Red Guard is the largest civilian defense force in the DPRK with a strength of approximately 3.5 million”

Not what i would call i push over

NK isn’t exactly in the best situation by having China looking down at them 24/7. After all, it’s not nearly as easy for NK to attack USA as it is to attack china, so no matter how much we distrust NK I’m sure China is even more uncomfortable with them.

Iran is more of a problem, since it is surrounded locally by allies and those sympathetic with them.

Yu really don’t understand the present relationship between China and NK do you? NK is still not that hard to topple in my book, hell if we really wanted to be a bunch of ruthless bastards, we could just bomb and blockade them into the stone age.

@ Shaun

Please explain to me how bombing every military base, factory, road, bridge, airfield, government building, etc. is not going to negatively affect the military and the populace as a whole.

Another thing I ask is when did we ever give NK aid when they threatened war(date and scholarly article requiered). Besides, if we do invade NK (bomb, blockade, whatever), it’s most likely because they truly did some wrong on a globally recognized scale and China will stay their hand to prevent an embrassment to their nation.

China doesn’t need North Korea at all and if Global Opinion is in favor of NK going down, what are the Chinese going to do? Invade? The threat of them losing all support from the Western world, being devastated by U.S. reprisal, and losing their biggest economic cash flow (US) would cause them to think rationally.

“What would we rather want? The loss of a single erractic and virtually worthless ally, or the threat of China being laid low?”

I think you know the answer. Oh yes, concerning the blackmail, if we’re already pissed enough to blockade a nation from all supplies and are considering bombing it, do you really think we will just back off when they threaten to militarize reactors when they’ve clearly done something that made us reason that war and the threat of nukes is preferable to NK continued existance.

Taking out North Korea’s military power, though not on par with the United States, is no complete pushover. If the USA was going to take on NK, they would not simply blow it to kingdom come and then do nothing. They would have the responsibility of putting in a new regime. …
That is where the hard part comes in. NK population is devoted, though brainwashed, devoted to their ideology in the “Great Leader”. Even without air and naval superiority, the North Korean people would still fight on. They already live in basic poverty, as their government spends most, if not all, of their money on military defense budget. There only real source of supplies comes through China. To starve the North Koreans effectively, you need to get China to cooperate on this mission.

If China decides not to cooperate, then the USA will need to actually land troops to enforce their will effectively (not saying they can not hurt the NK war effort through blockade, bombardment and etc…) , which means, land warfare. Having an sizable part of your population brainwashed into dying for the “Great Leader” will mean the USA will have to fight a long steady insurgency. And right now, I doubt the American people are willing to fight longer in Afghanistan and possibly Iran, without having to worry about fighting North Korea.

Plus, if the USA was simply attacking to put in a new regime suitable to American Foreign policy, I doubt China will say “Goodluck!” and leave us alone. North Korea is China’s lap dog. If the USA goes into NK without China’s approval, the Chinese will not hold still. I don’t know if the Chinese would use military force to fight off the Americans, but they might supply the NK to further bleed American forces. Right now, America has to focus on Afghanistan/Pakistan and Iran.

- the pondering fool

“I’M NOT SAYING IT’S A PUSHOVER GOD DAMNIT!

I’m merely stating that if we had to take NK down. It would not be a hard challenge,”

okay those too thinks appear to be contradiction to me, since you saying it wont be a push over but then you say it wont a hard challenge.

“considering the fact the reasons for us invading NK would be so overwhelming that China wouldn’t be in a position to block us without the threat of losing their global respect and our economics.”

since no-ones been very clear on what the scenario is, that has caused this war it hard to judge what any countries response would be, such as if NK nuked tokyo then i can imagine china stepping out of the way or at least not intervening with miltary matters,

however if it is regime change than china will support NK, they can not be seen to be weak in this since it invites america to invade them next.
America has just as much to lose by cutting off economic ties with china.

“Then, it would be a matter of blockade and airpower before we enlist the aid of SK (among others) to garrison the country.”

since NK can field over 1 million regular soldiers, nearly 5 million reserve forces and another 3 million miltia the main problem is ground warfare and doubt both america, SK or any other ally will wont to deploy a garrison force to keep control them under control.

“We might even use a combination of propaganda and food drops to prepare the ground for re-education. If an insurgance occurs, we put the lessons we have learned in the Middle East and certain aspects of Vietnam to good use.”

propaganda would be little use to most NK population since either their in the miltary and owe the loyalty to NK regime since it is they who feed, house them and give them everything else they need and is not likely about to join a coup which might give them the same standard of living they have now.

Those who not in the miltary are party members and would not join for the same reason leaving the general population who is unable to read, straving, brainwashed to hate americans and/or is deadly afraid of the regime and wouldnt dream of going against it.

food drops would be confiscated by the army and re-distrubted to the army.

leaving america no choice to launch a massive ground invasion which would cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent soldiers lives.

My take on NK is that Kim jong Il needs a large bullet to the head. Going to war with NK is not a problem. China will not intervene ( trust me, their poltions aren’t as stupid as some, I have meet a few when I was over there) China can sustain itself without needing to rely on NK, so why would they send their troops to a nation that is not important to them?

Before you talk about the next Korean War learn about the last Korean War or at least the Chinese sided with the NK and they are the reason why there are two Koreas. Also it is Truman’s weakness was also the reason why there are two Koreas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

I know times change and I know America will be victoious in the end. But you must understand why this topic could have never come about if it wasn’t for the Chinese and weak western politcal leaders

“My take on NK is that Kim jong Il needs a large bullet to the head.”

i agree the world would be a better place without him.

“Going to war with NK is not a problem. China will not intervene ( trust me, their poltions aren’t as stupid as some, I have meet a few when I was over there)”

How is facing over million enemy soldiers not a problem, and since when do you you know how the chinese will react to an american invasion of NK, i very much doubt the chinese politicians, went into an indepth discussion of their miltary position for such an event with you.

and meeting a handful of low-level politicians those not give someone an overview of the entire govermental system.
since any foreign leader that meets boris johnson (mayor of london) would think britain is run by idiots lets invade.

“China can sustain itself without needing to rely on NK, so why would they send their troops to a nation that is not important to them?”

why did Britain rise to belgiums defense in world war 1, we didnt really rely on them for anything really, but we had defense accords with them just as china does with NK, and just as we saw German expansion into further countries as an eventual threat to britain, China wil see the same thing with america.

Not to mention that china relies on NK as a western border defense, has hundreds of billions of dollars of investments and loans tied up in NK, and the fall of th NK regime would cause millions of refugee’s to flood into china causing massive disruptions to their country

and thats not the strategic surgical strikes the US bombing campaign plan calls for… this is all out carpet bombing… if we cover every inch of NK with napalm… leveled every building…. we still wouldnt get them… and America would look like assholes…

Too late doc……….HAH!

Well Iraq and afganistan have already done that so….yah. But I can’t say much because the NZSAS is over there.

Alright I get it, I’ll take out Kim Jong Il. Damn yankee’s that can’t do it for me . GOD!!

“however in my scenario doesnt require acceptance of the general populace in africa, only the pretence of it, we must learn the lessons of history.
so they wouldn’t rush in with only half the picture and end up looking the fool.
it would be a long term stratagem, which would involve the control and manipulation of nearly every level of media.
The main stream media would create an image of hell on earth in afica, which overtime would create an upset in the general public, in which they would demand america to do something, instead of the goverment telling the people why there going to war, is it was in iraq, the lefty media would be distracted by some of made up scandal or controvesial issue happening at the same time.
right leaning media wouldnt need much convincing on the issue.”

So basically, for your grand idea to work, all of America has to united in order to conquer some African countries? Yeah, like this will ever happen mate. I don’t know if you have ever been to America, or seen the political/social divide that America has now. The only times America has fully been unite in the past 100 years or so, was WWII, possibly WWI, and I will even throw in the invasion of Afghanistan. You can debate Korean War, but besides that, I see now way America will unite for Imperialist means. Right now, Americans want to get out of Afghanistan as soon as possible (some want it now, others want success first then withdrawal. Either way, they want to get out as soon as possible) and for the economy to get back on track. The idea of the whole American society uniting in order to conquer feeble African countries, is frankly, quite silly.

- the pondering fool

@ sapper

Bite me man, we are in afganistan with you. We didn’t need your blessing, we came over to help the poms.

“David… NZ hasnt done nor will ever do anything militarily without American blessing… get over yourself…”

I think its not America that blessed NZ but Aust. rather….

Fine… so instead of NZ being the snot nosed little brother…. Austrailia is… so where does that leave NZ? a stain on the bedsheets??

NZ part of the family, but its a runt like the falklands, but we shouldnt be too harsh on NZ its not their fault their only ambassador on this site is david.

“Course if it were not for Britain, you wouldn’t be there. Brits are cool, cept for the ones that don’t like me.”

Huh? As if Britain was the only country who partook in the colonization of America. Dozens of European nations helped colonize America, Britain was merely one of many in this regard. She happened to have the most influence for the longest time in America, but if Britain never came, America would still be here. Cmon David, we both know you know better than that

“You haven’t heard of the New Zealand wars between Native maori and British colonists have you?”

Nor have I, but given that New Zealand is now a Colony belonging to her majesty, I’ll presume you lost that one?

And then you go and insult Winston Churchill? Sorry dave, you’re on your own.

“friend making isnt his strong point…”

Still trying to figure out what his strong point IS…

/looks at mata/

he is pretty good at number 3…

An Ability to enrage Sapper beyond what was previously thought possible?

He has his belives and veiws. I have mine. We won’t comprimise so we are probably always gonna argue. Such is life.

@ Pondering fool

Thats what I was trying to get at.

“Those battles were important my friend. If NZ didn’t capture Monte Cassino, who would have? The Americans. Tried and failed( on a footnote, American B17 and B25 Bomber squadrons were known for being…..inaccurate. Dreadfully) . The British. Also tried and failed. NZ (and Australian) forces did it.”

The German paratroopers withdrew from the battle, right before the Polish 12th Podolian Uhlans took the monastery. And the main thrust to take the hill was comprised of British, Americans, Poles, New Zealanders, South Africans, and French. It was not soley the New Zealanders and Austries that took the hill. Not saying they did not play a role, but don’t over exaggerate the accomplishment.

- the pondering fool

@PF
Well, it would certainly be different, but it’s speculaative on whether it would be “better” or not.

It’s possible that it would be better if the Europeans never came. This is not necessarily a stance I hold, but it is out there. America wouldn’t be the same, but I am sure that if France won, they would have been overthrown eventually to a democracy of sorts. It’s not like we became a republic just because there was a large British presence here, after all many European nations at the time still had kings (although some were losing their heads!)

But would a state similar to America still be here? I would say most probably, whatever European nation in charge would have been revolted against, it’s not like it was exclusive to Britain. After the first generation of immigrants to America, one really loses any loyalty to a land they have never been in or seen.

Nations like India might have had a radically different history if Britain never interfered, since I wonder if anyone else would have attempted to colonize them, but for America, I just see Britain as the top dog among dozens of colonizers.

I’m no history buff, but that’s just my take on what I know /shrug

It’s not like I have anything against England, quite to the contrary actually. Perhaps I am over-glorying the American Revolution, and making too many ideals out of it, but I just saw it as inevitable. Britain was just in the wrong spot at the wrong time to deal with the revolution as well as the what, 5 other nations it was fighting at the same time? They kinda got screwed there.

“@PF
Well, it would certainly be different, but it’s speculaative on whether it would be “better” or not.

It’s possible that it would be better if the Europeans never came. This is not necessarily a stance I hold, but it is out there. America wouldn’t be the same, but I am sure that if France won, they would have been overthrown eventually to a democracy of sorts. It’s not like we became a republic just because there was a large British presence here, after all many European nations at the time still had kings (although some were losing their heads!)”

True, this is all speculation. That is why I say, it is impossible to say America, the nation we know as the stronghold of democracy and capitalism (while some will say the latter is getting killed by Obama), would have turn out the same. Who knows, if the French took over, they decide to export a lot of French Citizens and eventually water down the ex-British population. Or some new French territorial governor goes mad with power, and kills of any non French citizen. It is impossible to say anything, because so many actions led to the nation we know of today.

- the pondering fool

“remember the Yorktown!”

That was a mighty ship it was damaged in the battle of the Coral Sea and was repaired in lighting speed and threw the Japanese slightly off balance at the Battle of Midway do to the fact they thought the Yorktown was combat ineffective and because of that believe it was at Pearl Harbor. In the battle of Midway she went down with honor.

Oh don’t forget the USS Missouri just saying

“There’s another ship I’d like to honor. In a suprise night attack by the Imperial Jap. Fleet on U.S. forces, a lone destory turned around and faced the entire fleet by itself while the U.S. tried to consolidate. That ship went toe to toe with a f^&%ing heavy cruiser and actually stalled the entire. She was blown to pieces of course, but she gave then one hell of a blood nose. I can’t remember the battle or the ship’s name though…. think started with an “L.””

I think I remember seeing something along those lines on the “Enterprise Battle 360″ on the history channel. That was a good show, I must admit. Probably because I enjoy studying military history.

- the pondering fool

“Same here I love the history and military channels. I personally like Patton 360 alittle more though”

That was a very good show also. Old Blood and Guts….ever see the 1970 “Patton”? I believe they play it pretty historically close to what he was really like. Anyway, it is a very fine film for Patton adorers. The opening scene is the best though:

http://www.strimoo.com/video/16376588/General-Patton-s-Opening-Speech-from-MySpaceVideos.html

- the pondering fool

Oh I forgot Midway and MacArther

“Of the television series, my favorite goes to the “Band of Brothers”. I really enjoyed that series immensely.”

Same here do your know that HBO is making another WWII series called “The Pacific”

Here is the link to the trailer

http://www.hbo.com/events/pacific/video.html