Interesting tag-team battle here. Where it might appear on the surface that Doom and Kharn have the advantage, don’t underestimate the power of Team Thor.
Who do you think wins?
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May 25, 2009
#1
I’m going with Kharn and Dr. Doom. Kharn is the champion of the bloodgod and harbours an extreme thirts for blood. Gorechild would prove quite a challange for team one. Dr Doom has been depicted as withstanding attacks from the Silver Surfer. I think team one would put up a good fight, although I don’t know anything about Rand al’Thor, but I think the might of the betrayer and mind of doom would eventually be too much.
May 25, 2009
#2
I agree. Kharn should easily be able to take out Thor ( as Khorne is probably more powerful than Odin ).
I don’t know who just Rand al’thor is, but just imaganing the extra bonuses Dr.Doom could give an already powerful Kharne tips me to thier favor
May 25, 2009
#3
From the looks of Rand al’Thor, he doesn’t have any protection, armour wise, against the physical attacks from Kharn and Doctor Doom. Thor could pose a threat to team two, but with their brute strength and superior intillect, Thor should pose no seriour threat.
May 26, 2009
#4
odin force could be a big weapon in this because it is not odin directly interfering its just something thor can use….
and i dont think that either member on team 2 can compete with the odin force without direct interference from their respective gods
May 26, 2009
#5
True, Rand does have a complete lack of armour, but that’s because his strength doesn’t lie in physical combat, but rather in the magical realm.
http://www.factpile.com/cloud-vs-link-vs-kratos-vs-sauron-vs-thor-vs-richard-rahl-vs-ganondorf-vs-rand-althor
That page has some very good info on Rand al’Thor strengths. I’m in the process of writing a respect thread for al’Thor in the forum section, although I haven’t done as much as I probably should have.
Having said all that, Rand is more then capable of roasting Dr Doom in a matter of minutes, although Kharn would prove to be a slightly bigger problem. Still, I guess Thor can handle him.
May 26, 2009
#6
Woa.
Thats about the only reply I can cook up right now.
“I don’t know who just Rand al’thor is, but just imaganing the extra bonuses Dr.Doom could give an already powerful Kharne tips me to thier favor”
Kharn would decapitate Doom in an instant should he dare lay a filthy spell on him. Even if it was beneficial to their team.
May 26, 2009
#7
“Having said all that, Rand is more then capable of roasting Dr Doom in a matter of minutes, although Kharn would prove to be a slightly bigger problem. Still, I guess Thor can handle him.”
That is a way I can see the match playing out.
May 26, 2009
#8
IDK, I see Khorne as being powerful enough to cancel out most of Thor’s magic
May 27, 2009
#9
Khorne is, certainly, but I doubt his blessing inparted onto Kharn is able to stop that amount of juice. The Blessing of Khorne is indeed mighty, but these are attacks from another god, not just a sorceror.
Equally, Rand is able to pull so much juice as to challenge the Creator himself. I’m gonna go off on a limb and say that the Creator is just a few steps above the Berzerker.
May 27, 2009
#10
Hmm. But didn’t the God Emperor himself have a hard time killing Kharn? Does that count for anything?
Oh, and who do you mean by the “Creator”
May 27, 2009
#11
The God Emperor never fought Kharn.
He would have easily destroyed Kharn if they ever did go up against eachother.
May 28, 2009
#12
” Oh, and who do you mean by the “Creator” ”
The Creator is the Wheel of Time’s version of the Christian God
May 28, 2009
#13
The Creator is the Wheel of Time’s omnipotent being that gave life to the universe. He is the equivalent of Marvel’s One Above All and any other such deity of that kind.
May 29, 2009
#14
The God Emperor never fought Kharn.
He would have easily destroyed Kharn if they ever did go up against eachother.
All the Emporer could do was blast half his face off.
May 29, 2009
#15
And Rand is able to almost challange God ( if what Matapiojo says is true) then I see that team Thor would win. Just seems, that anyone able to challange “God” should be able to beat a insane, blood thristy Kharne, and Dr.Doom by himself. But this is only true, if he was truly as powerful as Matapiojo says.
May 29, 2009
#16
Team evil FTW here.
Dr Doom is probably the biggest threat here. He has been known to do some truly bewildering things. Stealing the Odinforce for example, which would surely aid his team in this match-up.
Kharn is, and it pains me to say this, a Meat shield in this match. He can take both of the others for a time (Ultimately dying in the attempt), slowing them down long enough for Doom to pull the ultimate Deux Ex Machina.
Its what he does.
May 30, 2009
#17
In this fight Kharn is far more dangerous then his teammate.
Rand is more then capable of effortlessly defeating Dr Doom:
He could use the One Power (his form of magic) to immobilize Doom, and then burn him from the inside out.
He could open and close a gateway on Dr Doom, instantly cutting him in half.
Or he could just end it in a couple of seconds with balefire.
June 3, 2009
#18
I don’t don’t know much about the “good” team, but I do know Kharn.
Even if they killed him, he would just come right back and fight again, and again, and again.
In addition, Kharn always has his trusty god, Khorne, to back him up… and seeing how Khorne doesn’t like to lose… wouldn’t Khorne just give Kharn enough juice to kill the good team.
Dr.Doom dies easily, but Kharn wins because he has a soulstealing axe powered by a Khornite daemon and the praise of a blood god.
June 3, 2009
#19
See, Kenny C…
I would generally agree with you. Hell, I’m one of the biggest Kharn advocates here, but when his opponent is an actual god wielding the mighty Odinforce, and a partner that can wield enough power to challenge (and possibly defeat) the omnipotent creator of his universe, then I would have to say that Kharn’s hopes of success are slim.
June 6, 2009
#20
Yeah your probably right… hell Kharn wasn’t meant to kill gods… if he was nothing in any universe would be left but Kharn.
Then he would be left with a decision… whether to statisfy his craving for killing with kiilling himself or just pass the time by hitting his head on a rock for eternity.
June 14, 2009
#21
if you have read the wheel of time books, then you know rand could take them alone with out thors help
June 16, 2009
#22
“Then he would be left with a decision… whether to statisfy his craving for killing with kiilling himself or just pass the time by hitting his head on a rock for eternity.”
So true, haha….poor warrior has nothing left to do, except maybe, try taking down the Trynaids……would be fun to see
- pondering fool
June 17, 2009
#23
I have to say it is impossible for Kharn to come back after being hit by balefire, as it just removes him from existance.
True, if Kharn would be able to come close to Rand, he’s pretty much screwed, since Gorechild would rip right through him.
However, Rand has more than enough ways to prevent Kharn from coming near him, and if it would get dangerous, he just creates a portal to get the advantage of range again.
June 21, 2009
#24
I think Dr Doom is being seriously under rated Doom has proven time and time again that he should never be written off between the magic and the teck he has at his disposal he is far from a minor threat with feats including stealing others powers the odin force being among those previosly stolen and his armor withstands some of the greatest punishments marvel has to offer he is a force to be reckoned with even in this match
June 27, 2009
#25
Team Thor are the clear winners here.
Thor and Rand are two of the most powerful fictional characters around, and together they are far worse. If Khorne poured all of his divine essence into Kharn and Dr. Doom stole the Odinforce to use in this battle, then it would be close to an even fight. Barring that, this fight won’t be much of a problem for Team Thor.
Dr. Doom is indeed a powerful character, but he wouldn’t last for long against Rand al’Thor. Al’Thor has several tactics that could bypass Doom’s armor, such as by forming a weave of magic inside Doom’s body and then detonating it with enough force to turn Doom’s innards to jelly. Or he could make Doom explode into superheated flames from within and push his temperature into the thousands of degrees, or fire a beam of balefire at him, which is completely unblockable by even the strongest armor or magical defenses. Then there’s the matter of the Choedan Kal, the ultimate weapon that could allow Rand to possibly challenge the Creator. Put in the Marvel universe, the Creator(and thus Rand with the CK) would probably be comparable in power to the One Above All. I think Doom’s more than a little outmatched if he’s facing that.
Kharn might be able to beat Rand, provided that he doesn’t have the Choedan Kal and the blessing of Khorne blocks all of Rand’s magic.(Though I believe Rand could probably find a way around that, such as by making the ground explode under Kharn’s feat.) With the Choedan Kal, Khorne himself would be hard pressed to beat Rand.
Assuming the Choedan Kal is not used(whereupon this battle is over before it begins), then the way I see this fight playing out is this: Thor will hurl an Odinforce-imbued Mjolnir at Kharn while Rand and Doom start exchanging attacks. Given the power of this attack, I’d say that even with the Blessing of Khorne, Kharn would be severely injured in the least, preventing him from taking a shot at Rand. Thor closes in and finishes him off, while Rand disposes of Doom.
July 4, 2009
#26
While Kharn is by far the most awesome of the four, he is not remotely on their power levels. High level comic book powers are retardedly powerful.
July 8, 2009
#27
Balefire anyone? I wonder though, if Kharn protection from Khorne would protect him from Balefire…but I don’t see anyway how Dr. Doom would survive a blast from Rand. Then adding Thor with his Odinforce into the mix…not looking good for Team Doom/Kharn.
- pondering fool
July 28, 2009
#28
I Think as soon as the battle starts Kharn Pounces on Rand and tears him apart.
(God that looked cool in my mind)
Rand won’t be fast enough for Kharn, He side-steps bullets for god’s sake.
July 30, 2009
#29
“I Think as soon as the battle starts Kharn Pounces on Rand and tears him apart.
(God that looked cool in my mind)
Rand won’t be fast enough for Kharn, He side-steps bullets for god’s sake.”
Umm . . . excuse me?
Care to explain to me how Kharn is going to get through an energy shield that can stop a nuclear blast? Care to explain how Kharn is going to dodge a beam of utter destruction that moves at the speed of light and instantly burns anything it touches out of existence? You know, balefire, the little weapon that Rand can use to DESTROY CITY SIZED TARGETS.
Also, Rand is by no means slow. At least, the One Power isn’t. Rand is capable of, in miliseconds, affecting over a dozen targets simultaneously, and weaving mutliple works of powerful magic that require a comparable amount of concentration and effort as weaving a rug in midair while blindfolded. If Kharn “pounced” Rand could simply make the air he’s moving through become harder than cement, trapping Kharn in mid-air, or just use the One Power to turn everything within miles of him into ash.
Then there’s also the fact that Rand can use the Choedan Kal(just a Pandora’s Box in statue form that allows the user to draw an unlimited amount of energy from the fundamental power that drives time the universe and creation itself and harness enough power into their physical bodies to go toe-to-toe with a god and win, nothing important).
Also, maybe you’re forgetting Thor? A physical god who can move faster than light? Kharn won’t be able to so much as lift his weapon to Rand before Thor God-Blasts him, or gives him Mjolnir to the face.
August 4, 2009
#30
1 Gorechild, A legendary chain-axe that Kharn uses, He can inflict moe damage at a close range than any nuke could hope to deliver.
2 The magic would be useless, Blessing of Khorne. If the energy shield is magical It is useless. (Mata I think I dissagee with Rand being a few steps ahead of Kharn for Khorne is just the god of war.)
3 The Statue that you mention is quite Interesting, What happens if it is destroyed?
August 5, 2009
#31
Interesting tag-team battle here. Where it might appear on the surface that Doom and K “Thor & Rand al’Thor Vs Kharn & Dr. Doom”harn have the advantage, don’t underestimate the power of Team Thor vs Team Atlantis vs the Buggaloo’s vs Barney the Dinosaur vs. Gay Bob vs Jimmy Stewart vs Alfred E.Nueman vs Raggedy Ann vs Michael J.Pollard vs Harvey Frearstein vs Will Farrell vs Mirris the Exploding Cat vs Jim Starlin’s Infinity Tuba vs the Infinity Plunger vs the Infinity Toilet vs Dwain Hickman vs Gillighan vs Rhoda vs William Bendix.
August 7, 2009
#32
“1 Gorechild, A legendary chain-axe that Kharn uses, He can inflict moe damage at a close range than any nuke could hope to deliver. ”
While I have no doubt that Gorechild is a mighty weapon, I’m not so sure it could really penetrate shields that strong, especially when Rand has additional options besides simply forming shields with the power. He could, for example, harden the air between him and Kharn until it was too thick for anything to move through, or form a portal between them that will force Kharn’s attacks to enter a void between worlds, rather than continuing on to meet Rand.
“2 The magic would be useless, Blessing of Khorne. If the energy shield is magical It is useless. (Mata I think I dissagee with Rand being a few steps ahead of Kharn for Khorne is just the god of war.)”
Not true. The Blessing of the Blood God is designed to render Kharn immune to powers of a psychic nature. Rand’s powers are not psychic in nature. In fact, I’d hesitate to even call them “magic.” Rand uses the One Power, which, while similar to traditional magic, is more similar to the Force in nature, only it can be used to do pretty much anything, rather than being grouped into an assortment of limited powers.
“3 The Statue that you mention is quite Interesting, What happens if it is destroyed?”
Well, if the Choedan Kal is somehow destroyed, Rand wouldn’t be able to access it’s power anymore. However, that is a moot point since Rand does not need to be holding out his key in plain sight where Kharn could get it. He only needs to have it on his person, e.g. tucked under his clothes. It would be impractical for Kharn to try to get it at close range when Rand is assaulting with lethal weaves driven by the powers of the universe shaped into pure destruction.
Anyhow, thoughts of Kharn puncturing Rand’s shields or blocking his magic is not viable, considering the powers that Rand wields with the Choedan Kal. He holds the fundamental energy that drives the universe inside him, and can weave it into any form he wishes to change reality to his will. Even if Kharn could puncture Rand’s “normal” shields and withstand mortal magic, he’d be in hot water when he’s facing an unlimited source of energy drawn from the True Source of all power that is being woven into dozens of different deadly attacks simultaneously, all of them with the sole purpose of obliterating Kharn.
Kharn is mighty, definitely, but not on a god-like level. He’s below Khorne, a god. Rand is equal to, if not above,gods. He’s so powerful that there is virtually no being in the entire Wheel of Time universe that could fight him, with the exception of the Creator. And even then, it is explicitly stated in “The Shadow Rising” that Rand(with the Choedan Kal) could challenge the Big C for dominion over the universe if he wanted to.
Read my previous posts, along with Matapiojo’s. Rand is simply beyond the level of anyone who doesn’t wield godly power, and even then his chances of victory are high. Even if Kharn could somehow beat Rand, there’s still the matter of Thor, who by himself is an actual god more than capable of schooling Kharn.
August 12, 2009
#33
Hello, anyone think about Choedan Kal being moonstone or whatever that invincible stone is that holds the darkone’s seals, bale fire destroys everything the moment before it hits, erasing it from existence, really, im not a comic book person, but i know enough about the wheel of time to know that anyone with infinite access to the One Power is all but invincible, make 2 sets of porta around himself, one on the outside to prevent attacks from coming through and the other so he can send strikes of balefire out, that simple
August 12, 2009
#34
I forgot to add that rand is a blade master with a virtually indestructible blade, he’s also a good fighter with the spear and quarterstaff, and he isn’t a bad fighter unarmed.
August 12, 2009
#35
“The Blessing of the Blood God is designed to render Kharn immune to powers of a psychic nature.”
Untrue.
Psychihc powers are mainly a simple game mechanic. Magic, sorcery, psionics, and even daemonic powers are all considered to be “psychic” and have the same effect on the Blood Champion.
That said, this doesn’t make Kharn absolutely immune to Rand’s creativity with the One Power. Such powers are only nullified if they target Kharn in any specific way. The air and portal examples you just gave are good examples of effects that would not be nullified as they do not target the berserker in any way.
Also, it may still be up for debate, but this blessing may not be utterly absolute as particularly powerful effects may still harm Kharn (and Rand’s are as strong as they come). This one is hard to debate as there is no good example in canon. All we have are game mechanic versions of this power. Though it’s important to note that the most current entry does nullify ANYTHING that targets him or includes him in its area of effect…
August 14, 2009
#36
@ Matapiojo
Do you think Rand with the Choedan Kal (Or what ever makes him able to challange the Creator) would be able to overpower Khorne’s blessing? Sure, Khorne is pretty sick, isn’t it possible for even this mighty god to be surpassed in power by Rand? Interesting thought……
- pondering fool
August 14, 2009
#37
I don’t see why it wouldn’t. If it is power enough to be comparable to the stuff that makes other stuff be stuff, then he could litterally do anything.
August 14, 2009
#38
The I think this match would be over pretty quickly. Rand’s magic overpowers khorne’s blessing of kharn, so balefire elimates him quickly. Rand can use his other enchantments/magic/balefire to elimate Doom also. And Thor can be there for moral support, cheering the Dragon Reborn to victory…..
- pondering fool
August 21, 2009
#39
“Psychihc powers are mainly a simple game mechanic. Magic, sorcery, psionics, and even daemonic powers are all considered to be “psychic” and have the same effect on the Blood Champion.”
Really? Psychic is just a general term for “supernatural”? Well, if that was the case, I suppose it would probably block most direct uses of the One Power. Of course, indirect uses would still be in consideration as has been mentioned, possibly along with balefire, since it has been observed to cut through any and all shields of supernatural origin.
But that’s really a moot point considering the Choedan Kal. Rand with the CK is possibly as powerful as the Creator, probably as powerful as the fundamental powers of reality(True Source drives time and creation), and at least as powerful as the Dark One. That would likely put him in Khorne’s playing field or (most likely) above it. Though Khorne’s blessing is indeed very powerful, it’s kind of a stretch to assume it could block attacks from an entity as powerful as or more powerful than Khorne himself, unless he focuses all of his power on that one blessing.
Rand probably could take care of both of these by himself, but I don’t think Thor is just going to sit there. Just imagining a God Blast AND a Choedan Kal-powered balefire beam directed at Team 2 is . . . just overkill. Awesome, spectacular overkill. It would probably destroy the universe along with team 2.
August 23, 2009
#40
@AHEM
Nah, why would Thor even lift a finger. He is morale support, the awesome norse cheerleader. Rand does all the work, and Thor gives out barrels of beer during half time (the match would probably never go on that long but who cares, when Beer of Asgard is being served!)
- pondering fool
September 19, 2009
#41
after reading and from what i know of these guys i give my vote to thor and that guy lol
September 22, 2009
#42
“after reading and from what i know of these guys i give my vote to thor and that guy lol”
I agree.
Have we covered this topic extensively enough to give the Factpile Award to Team Thor?
October 1, 2009
#43
“Have we covered this topic extensively enough to give the Factpile Award to Team Thor?”
Well, you have my support mate. Dragon Reborn just has too much power, let alone he gets Thor also. Factpile award for Team Thor/Rand
- the pondering fool
October 1, 2009
#44
A question from those who know about Rand…
How much could he take in damage. I.e. if he stood still and did nothing would he survive any attacks from his opponents?
Not that I think it would change this match, but having an understanding of a character’s durability is always nice.
October 2, 2009
#45
Kharn is Khorne’s favorite, he’s got more blessings on him than the pope. It’s not enough to actually cancel out thor’s divinity but it can take the edge off the worst effects. Kharn’s abilities and experience as a chaos space marine should be enough to make up the difference. The fact that Gorechild was once wielded by a primearch adds a hint of divinity that was enforced by Khorne and thousands of years of bloodshed.
Rand is a mage, of sorts, and most likely a swordsman, but I have not heard of him using any divine power beyond sharpening the contrast of typical good and ill fortune. Dr. Doom, however, is an acomplished sorceror and scientific genius. His intelligence and knowlage are sufficient to defeat demi-gods. It is entirely possible that he could reverse engineer the gentling process and strip Rand’s power from him.
October 2, 2009
#46
“How much could he take in damage. I.e. if he stood still and did nothing would he survive any attacks from his opponents?”
Rand’s body is protected by a network of multiple complex weaves designed to thwart any attack, as can be seen in his numerous battles. His most basic protection is air weaves, which manipulate the air and space that things move through. Arrows shot at Rand deflect to the side, daggers stop short of his skin, extreme heat is dispensed around the area, etc.
In the Path of Daggers(don’t remember exactly where) Rand covered himself in full body shields to whether an attack from the Forsaken Osan’gar. To put this into perspective, this is from a universe where the best channelers regularly toss spells at each other that have comparable strength to modern nuclear weapons(blast entire cities into ruins in seconds), and dozens of them at a time, all the while trying to counter or deflect their enemy’s weaves. Rand and the Forsaken are the best of the best. Rand repeatedly weathered all of his enemy’s attacks, the destruction so massive that he was literally sent bouncing and falling around the area in his shields, completely protected.
In addition, Rand’s mind is fortified with weaves of Spirit designed to protect against mental invasion. These render him completely immune to any form of psychic or emotional manipulation. With them, he has effortlessly thwarted the strongest efforts of the strongest telepaths in his world. Egwene, said to be one of the greatest Aes Sedai and Dreamwalkers in 1000 years, described trying to breach Rand’s mind as nigh-impossible. He was so powerfully fortified, that she failed to even establish a hold on his mind to exert psychic pressure through to try to break in, and even approaching his mind psychically caused his vision to dim and become foggy, as if she was looking through muddy water. It should be noted that Rand wasn’t even actively making an effort to keep her out. He didn’t even notice that she was there, trying to get in.
Rand typically does not wear armor. His body is psysically stronger and tougher than a normal human’s, as a result of him being bonded as a Warded and probably being able to strengthen his flesh with the One Power if he wanted. He survived a direct slash from the cursed dagger of Shadar Logoth with a sizeable scar. The merest glance of this deadly weapon once caused an elite soldier to fall to the ground and die in instants.
Hope that gives a good idea of the kind of damage that Rand can take.
October 2, 2009
#47
while i think the bad team will lose, i dont see doom going down nearly as easily as most people seem to think, i mean, stealing powers is almost a hobbi of his lol
October 2, 2009
#48
Ah, so Rand is the true threat.
That being said, considering how thoroughly Dr. Doom analyzes his opponents (I assume he took this battle seriously) then isn’t it possible for him to set up holograms of all the women that died because of Rand and have them scream at him?
I imagine the psycological trauma would be severe. Add his lovers into the mix and Rand might as well gouge his own eyes out.
October 2, 2009
#49
Here’s a question though, how would Doom figure it out?
Most of them are dead and buried and the only real images of them are in Rand’s mind.
A mind that is so heavily fortified with enhancements it’s impossible to read.
October 2, 2009
#50
“That being said, considering how thoroughly Dr. Doom analyzes his opponents (I assume he took this battle seriously) then isn’t it possible for him to set up holograms of all the women that died because of Rand and have them scream at him?”
Rand is no stranger to that kind of torment. He takes time to painstakingly memorize the names and details of every single one of those women and then tortures himself by repeating them to himself again and again, so he’ll never forget what happened to them.
In addition, Rand has an additional advantage that I may not have mentioned, called the Void. It is a mental techinique used by channelers of Saidin to clear their minds. While wrapped in the Void, Rand can easily ignore any degree of pain and discomfort, “as if it were another man’s.” This ability is not to be underestimated. Rahvin, another male channeler, was wrapped in the Void and wasn’t even slowed down when his eye and a chunk of his face were destroyed and scorched by fire. Rand, at the end of The Fires of Heaven, was subjected to weaves of pain that basically struck at every nerve in his body, as well as his very spirit and link to Saidin, causing the kind of pain that is best described as hell on earth a thousand times over. While taking this pain, Rand was still able to concentrate enough to control and counter several weaves at once. The really impressive part? The weaves he was countering were made of Saidar, and thus were completely invisible to him.
I have to agree with Megafire in that it is extremely unlikely that Doom will find out about this weakness of Rand’s at all, let alone effectively exploit it. This is more of a psychology quirk of Rand’s, and unless Doom travels to Randland and does extensive research on the Dragon Reborn, he’ll have no way of knowing that Rand has this particular tendency. Minimal prep time is assumed, and that just isn’t going to cut it for Doom.
Not that I’m saying Doom is a weakling, far from it. However, when you’re up against two foes who are basically walking gods who can blast the planet you’re standing on into dust, you’re in trouble no matter how good you are.
October 9, 2009
#51
wow, I have nothing to say, it’s already been said.
Go rand!
Also, I’d like to see Rand Al’Thor (without the choden Kal) VS Darth Vader
October 10, 2009
#52
“Also, I’d like to see Rand Al’Thor (without the choden Kal) VS Darth Vader”
I’d like to as well. I already suggested it, I believe, some time ago. It would definitely be a fight to see, the Force vs. the One Power.
October 22, 2009
#53
Are u all serious? Thor is a god, for crying out loud! He solos Kharn and Doom by himself! Those two are potent, no doubt about it, but just not the material to take on such a powerful Asgardian. Thor can blast galaxies to smithereens with the Odinforce. I don’t think Khorne and Doom are going to be much of a problem. Similarly, the CK that Rand uses makes him even bigger and badder than physical gods. This is overkill! Team Thor wins with no problem!
Factpile award for Team Thor!
October 23, 2009
#54
i second the nomination for team thor+rand
October 23, 2009
#55
I third the nomination for Team Thor. Thor and al’Thor for the win!
November 9, 2009
#56
It is unfortunate that this particular thread has been quite lately. Seems I must rally again the support for Team Thor…..off to go campaigning it seems….and right before the start of winter……not a good start….
- the pondering fool
November 9, 2009
#57
i still say doom if he has prep time, owns this, but without it…..he still has a good chance
November 9, 2009
#58
@ss
“i still say doom if he has prep time, owns this, but without it…..he still has a good chance”
Mate, have you consider (not saying you are stupid or anything as such.) the power of having balefire and the odin force on one team? Rand, by himself, would annihilate team Doom, with a simple attack of just balefire. Erasing your opponent from the threads of history is quite a powerful attack indeed…….
- the pondering fool
November 9, 2009
#59
@pf
i dont know much about balefire, but cand it burn through all of dooms magical and technological wards?
November 9, 2009
#60
“@pf
i dont know much about balefire, but cand it burn through all of dooms magical and technological wards?”
I got this from wikipedia, as it did an adequate job of describing its power. AHEM or Mate could probably do a better job, but I had limited time:
“It has only one known weave, and when evoked, summons a blindingly bright beam of “liquid light” that is capable of destroying nearly every known substance. The real danger of balefire, however, is that it can undo (or erase) the past actions of anyone it hits: for instance, Rahvin, a Forsaken, killed several characters but was later balefired by Rand al’Thor. “After”, the slain characters’ deaths were undone and they were later found alive, having a blurred memory of their death, though at times others who were witness to it express surprise at seeing them alive. Another important fact is that it removes the victim from the pattern completely, preventing Forsaken from being resurrected and likely stopping souls from being reborn. Balefire has different effects based on what it hits. For living beings, a mere touch seems to be enough to wipe the entire being from existence. For normal structures and objects, it seems to destroy only what it touches.”
Pretty damn powerful stuff mate…..
- the pondering fool
November 9, 2009
#61
yes but it only cover material and living beings, not magic and forces(like force fields) that is more to the point of what im asking
also can balefire affect rand?
November 9, 2009
#62
“yes but it only cover material and living beings, not magic and forces(like force fields) that is more to the point of what im asking
also can balefire affect rand?”
Yes, balefire I believe (and I could be wrong, so AHEM could correct my mistake) has been shown to go through all magical defenses in the Wheel of Time world, Except for this: “Cuendillar is the only known material to resist balefire. Rand al’Thor did once part a stream of balefire with (or through) the sa’angreal Callandor in the Stone of Tear, but whether or not this is an integral quality of Callandor (or, for that matter, what The Sword That Is Not A Sword is made of) has yet to be addressed.”
Rand has been shown always having to dodge Balefire (by the sheerest of measures) as, it is strong enough to take down even him (and he keeps many weaves and shields around him). So, if someone did shoot balefire at Rand, and it somehow hit him, i believe our hero would be erased from existence.
- the pondering fool
November 9, 2009
#63
hmmmm well barring everyones favorite mastermind finding away to redirect the balefire, i must give this battle to team rand
November 10, 2009
#64
“yes but it only cover material and living beings, not magic and forces(like force fields) that is more to the point of what im asking”
Pondering Fool is correct. Balefire affects everything. Living matter, unliving matter, spirits and intangible creatures with no physical bodies, beings created from magic, magical shields, everything. In fact, once in “The Path of Daggers” when Rand weathers a powerful Channeler’s attacks while inside a nigh-indestructible shield, he notes that it would “keep out anything, short of balefire.”
The only thing that shows any resistence to balefire is Cuendillar, the indestructible crystal. While Rand could indeed by hit by balefire through all of his defenses, he carries Callandor with him, which is made of indestructible, balefire-resistant Cuendillar. Also, he can sense when magical forces are being woven and where they are, which would allow him to easily dodge in time if he felt balefire being woven.(He actually did this in “The Fires of Heaven.”)
Redirecting balefire is next to impossible, precisely because it hits, affects, and erases absolutely everything. For example, if you held out a mirror that could reflect magic up and Rand balefired it, the process of touching the balefire to allow it to reflect off the surface would cause the shield to have never existed, and thus the balefire hits the person holding the shield with no interference. Since it also affects magical and purely energetic constructions, redirecting it with magic is also a no-go, since reaching out to touch the balefire with magic would swallow the spell being used into nothingness. Balefire is like a moving black-hole of destruction that swallows everything it touches, which is one reason why its so dangerous. Once fired, it cannot be redirected or called back; it just destroys.
And that’s just regular balefire. Just imagining what Rand could do with a simple balefire weave when he’s being backed by the god-like power of the Choedan Kal is just scary.
November 10, 2009
#65
“And that’s just regular balefire. Just imagining what Rand could do with a simple balefire weave when he’s being backed by the god-like power of the Choedan Kal is just scary.”
If he wanted to, couldn’t he just create a wave of balefire a couple hundred miles wide and send it towards the opposition? Haven’t read the Wheel of TIme series, but from the limited knowledge I have gained on this site, didn’t the wizards (or what ever they call the magical people) use that to destroy entire cities in an ancient war? Or something along those lines……
- the pondering fool
November 11, 2009
#66
“If he wanted to, couldn’t he just create a wave of balefire a couple hundred miles wide and send it towards the opposition? Haven’t read the Wheel of TIme series, but from the limited knowledge I have gained on this site, didn’t the wizards (or what ever they call the magical people) use that to destroy entire cities in an ancient war? Or something along those lines……”
The “magical people” are called channelers. Other terms–such as Aes Sedai, Asha’man, Wise Ones, and Windfinders–refer to organizations made up of channelers. The “ancient war” was called the War of the Shadow.
Anyway, you are correct. Rand can extend balefire to cover any distance he wants, so long as he is willing to expend the amount of Saidin necessary to unleash so much balefire. It was stated outright in the books(Book 5, “The Fires of Heaven” chapter “Gateways”) that Rand could annihilate an entire city with a single balefire attack if he wanted to, provided he had an angreal or sa’angreal in his possession.(And that’s one attack: he can keep those coming, and use several of them at once, if he wants to.)
Balefire was indeed used for this purpose during the War of the Shadow, and oftentimes by channelers less powerful than Rand(only Moridin and Alivia are really up to Rand’s level in channeling strength), using angreals less powerful than Rand’s sa’angreal of choice, Callandor. It is because of the resulting temporal disruption and damage to the Pattern of the Wheel of Time caused by the use of so much balefire that made balefire become regarded as such a dangerous technique, that and that only fairly powerful channelers can learn to actually wield it.
Since Rand can maintain multiple weaves at once if he wants to, this sort of firepower may even come from different directions. Rand seems to prefer channeling balefire through his pointed hand, but given that he’s been able to manipulate objects without making any sort of gestures towards them in the past, he could very well have different ways of forming and projecting balefire at his disposal.
And that’s just the power a channer can wield with an angreal or sa’angreal. With the Choedan Kal, there’s no telling how much balefire Rand could unleash. When you’re wielding a power that can be used to shatter the world, go toe-to-toe with gods, and warp reality on a universal scale, it gets kinda difficult to estimate just how much force your attacks are going to pack.
November 11, 2009
#67
wow sound like rand outclasses just about every1 with just balefire, but you say others can summon the fire as well?
November 12, 2009
#68
“wow sound like rand outclasses just about every1 with just balefire, but you say others can summon the fire as well?”
Yes, any sufficiently powerful and skilled channeler can learn to use balefire, at least in small amounts, though no one is really as powerful or as skilled with it as Rand. He was able to use it instintively, without being trained or even knowing about balefire, when he was still getting the feel of his new powers in the third book.
One of the main reasons why Callandor is such a valuable asset to Rand is not only its incredible sharpness and ability to enhance Rand’s natural powers, but also its ability to block balefire, which no magic short of divine power(theoretically) can do. When he isn’t carrying Callandor, Rand has to rely on his spider-sense like ability to sense magic and dodge before he gets balefired. He actually did this during his battle with Rahvin, when Rand wasn’t wielding Callandor.
Yeah, with these powers, Rand is a pretty difficult opponent to face. He’s almost a demi-god with all his powers and equipment, and what makes it worse is that his attacks can bypass just about any defense. Balefire is unblockable unless you have Cuendillar to deflect it, his shielding weaves can prevent an opponent from using any type of magic, and he’s covered with enough shields to take most attacks any way. Still, I firmly believe that Rand would need the Choedan Kal’s full power to battle god-tier opponents like Thor or Khorne.
November 17, 2009
#69
I just remembered something that should have a crucial importance in this battle.
In “The Shadow Rising”(Chapter 58, “The Traps of Rhuidean”) Rand al’Thor fought one of the Forsaken. The channeler in question had received a shield from the Dark One that allowed him to draw upon his link to his god to protect him from the Taint of Saidin. During the battle, Rand, acting on instinct, reached out and severed the bond, destroying his shield. He didn’t even know about it before hand, but he still figured out almost instantly that Asmo was drawing on his link to the Dark One, and figured out how to sever it, something that impressed even the other Forsaken and was previously thought impossible.
That’s right, Rand reached out and severed the bond between a universe-spanning, reality-warping God of Evil and one of his chosen champions, leaving said champion vulnerable. While Khorne’s blessing would be much different from the bond Rand severed, the fact that he was able to do it at all is incredible. He could very well repeat the process with Kharn, cutting him off from his god, preventing him from benefitting from his immunity to magic and the possibility of Khorne resurrecting him mid-battle.
I think the noose has been placed around Kharn’s neck in this battle, even without taking the Odinforce and the Choedan Kal into the equation.
November 20, 2009
#70
“That’s right, Rand reached out and severed the bond between a universe-spanning, reality-warping God of Evil and one of his chosen champions, leaving said champion vulnerable. While Khorne’s blessing would be much different from the bond Rand severed, the fact that he was able to do it at all is incredible. He could very well repeat the process with Kharn, cutting him off from his god, preventing him from benefitting from his immunity to magic and the possibility of Khorne resurrecting him mid-battle.”
Mmmhh…trying to think of something for Kharn to do in his defense….nothing. When you figure in Thor plus Odin-Force….puchica, not looking good for Team Doom. Which brings me to say, Doom really appears to be the useless one for Team Doom (even though it is named after him!). What are his abilities/strengths? Thanks to all who end the lingering ignorance.
- the pondering fool
November 21, 2009
#71
“Which brings me to say, Doom really appears to be the useless one for Team Doom (even though it is named after him!). What are his abilities/strengths? Thanks to all who end the lingering ignorance.”
POWERS AND ABILITIES:
Harness and control the Roma, Gypsy magic. Doctor Strange considers him magically proficient but only a mid-level mage. He also has more scientific devices and considers the pursuit of these to be more important.
Fire mystical blasts, create force-fields, invoke mystical entities for support.(Outside help–can’t be used in this battle), ensnare foes in mystical bands of energy, create portals to other planes of existence, switch his mind with that of another human being that he makes eye contact with, superhuman strength(while in his armor), scientific weapons(missiles, energy blasts from his suit, etc), flight(using his armor), generate electrical shocks along the surface of his armor to repel foes, self-sustenance systems within his suit to allow him to go long periods without food, water, oxygen, etc, infrared vision(again, from his armor), absorb and store solar energy to power his suit, genius-level intellect.
The movie version of Doom had different powers, but could control electricity, still possessed his suit an numerous technological weapons, and his body became a highly durable bio-metallic compound.
http://marvel.wikia.com/Victor_von_Doom_(Earth-616)
http://marvel.wikia.com/Victor_von_Doom_(Earth-121698)
As you can see, his powers, well strong, are not remotely in the godly realm. Rand with Callandor would be a match for him, especially given his ability to cut enemies off from all sources of magic(bye, bye, Gypsy magic) and bypass all defenses with balefire.
January 9, 2010
#72
Might be pretty hard to say something good for Kharn/Doom here, but i really wanna get my opinion on some points across.
“Care to explain to me how Kharn is going to get through an energy shield that can stop a nuclear blast? Care to explain how Kharn is going to dodge a beam of utter destruction that moves at the speed of light and instantly burns anything it touches out of existence? You know, balefire, the little weapon that Rand can use to DESTROY CITY SIZED TARGETS.”
The shield is easy enough. Gorechild can cut anything, including magic itself and forcefields, daemons, adamantium, Phase weapons that also cut it all you name it. Blocking it is hard.
And I firmly believe that Balefire, or any amount of dierect hitting magic, won’t take him out. You see, you place a weapon that can destroy everything apart from one substance against a Blessing that stops any supernatural attack regardless of properties. If that Balefire hits, it will be nullified like anything else. Balefire has one weakness, the Blessing has none. I will personally give it to the Blessing, although that is one hell of a possible debate.
Similarily, magic is useless. Even if Kharn was hit with magic of a calibre that far outclasses even Khorne in raw power, that will mean nothing. If you have something that is absolutely unbreakable, it means nothing even if you apply an endless amount of force. If it cannot break it won’t break. And as this is a power that is part of him, rather than Khorne stepping in each time something fishy happens, I say that the nature of the Blessing cancels it out no matter what you do to it, rather than Khorne wildly trying to bash the incoming assault.
“With the Choedan Kal, Khorne himself would be hard pressed to beat Rand.”
Might be stupid of me to even start a debate on this as it ain’t on topic, but I say no. In such a titanic match both will get in hits, and if Rand is hit his soul is eaten and his spiritual essence becomes part of Khorne. Now THAT would be scary.
“He could very well repeat the process with Kharn, cutting him off from his god, preventing him from benefitting from his immunity to magic and the possibility of Khorne resurrecting him mid-battle.”
Kharn is no more connected to Khorne than Rand is. His Blessing is a gift that lies in him, not something that comes from without. If you weave a field around him that will try that, he counts as being inside the area of effect and the effect is cancelled anyway.
I have something else to say, but I’m busy at the moment. I’m watching my beloved Manchester United do battle with the filthy Birmingham.
January 9, 2010
#73
“The shield is easy enough. Gorechild can cut anything, including magic itself and forcefields, daemons, adamantium, Phase weapons that also cut it all you name it. Blocking it is hard.”
“Similarily, magic is useless. Even if Kharn was hit with magic of a calibre that far outclasses even Khorne in raw power, that will mean nothing. If you have something that is absolutely unbreakable, it means nothing even if you apply an endless amount of force. If it cannot break it won’t break. And as this is a power that is part of him, rather than Khorne stepping in each time something fishy happens, I say that the nature of the Blessing cancels it out no matter what you do to it, rather than Khorne wildly trying to bash the incoming assault.”
No offense, Wacko, but your arguments are really leaning in the No Limits Fallacy direction. I don’t think the Blessing can be extrapolated to such extremes. It makes Kharn immune to direct uses of magic, but even if it isn’t counted as “Khorne stepping in” it still ultimately comes from Khorne. I find it hard to believe that Khorne can create something that is ultimately more powerful than himself and is completely indestructible to any amount of supernatural force. It blocks magic, but godly power? Unless I can see an example where he defends against god-powers flawlessly, such as Tzeentch focusing all his power on attacking Kharn and failing to pierce it or something of the sort, I’m not really willing to accept that Kharn would be immune to the kinds of powers Rand could bring to bear.
January 9, 2010
#74
Aren’t both Thor and Rand effectively omnipotent? Thor is particularly worrying, with his FTL speeds.
January 9, 2010
#75
“Aren’t both Thor and Rand effectively omnipotent?”
Pretty near to it, at the very least.
January 9, 2010
#76
I am curious about one thing, what if Thors Mjolinor collided with Kharns Gorechild?
January 9, 2010
#77
“I am curious about one thing, what if Thors Mjolinor collided with Kharns Gorechild?”
I don’t know what properties Thors hammer is given in the Marvel universe, but I would guess they are extreme, to say the least, if it is a weapon worthy of an Asgardian. Gorechild is a daemonically possessed, all-cutting, soul-stealing nigh-indestructible weapon worthy of Kharn and Daemon Primarch Angron, and Khorne himself thinks it rockes. If Mjollnir is anywhere near as strong as i guess it is, the mayhem will be huge.
“No offense, Wacko, but your arguments are really leaning in the No Limits Fallacy direction.”
Might be, but how am I supposed to debate another way? Thats how this stuff is represented, and up until now both statements seem to hold. If it is stated as having no limit, before it is shown that the limit is in the very least EXTREMELY high as the limits hasn’t been found yet, thats the one and only way to argue.
“I find it hard to believe that Khorne can create something that is ultimately more powerful than himself and is completely indestructible to any amount of supernatural force.”
Thats the thing, I don’t. The Blessing could well do that as far as i see it, because it’s not power of Khorne vs even greater power. Instead it is something Khorne made that is calibrated to stop any amount of such force. If you take one kind of power and pour it into something that has properties that negates said power completely, you could in theory apply an endless amount of said power and get no results, despite using more power than what went into creating the cancelling object in question. That is very believeable to me.
“It blocks magic, but godly power?”
In this instance, it seems like the godly power is simply an extremely potent form of magic, at least pretty similar, and it is LOTS of it. The difference is slim.
“Unless I can see an example where he defends against god-powers flawlessly, such as Tzeentch focusing all his power on attacking Kharn and failing to pierce it or something of the sort, I’m not really willing to accept that Kharn would be immune to the kinds of powers Rand could bring to bear.”
If you know 40K, and I am certain you do, you knows that a god in 40K would have no interest at all in blasting a mortal. The only thing we know is that Khorne is the biggest and the baddest, and that is of zero importance here.
January 9, 2010
#78
As such I can give no such example. The only thing is that no one has breached the blessing before, but none of them was in the tier of gods.
January 11, 2010
#79
Anyone having anything to say? Would be sad if this match dies here.
January 11, 2010
#80
“In this instance, it seems like the godly power is simply an extremely potent form of magic, at least pretty similar, and it is LOTS of it. The difference is slim.”
You do realize that the One Power in WoT is the power of Creation? It’s what the Creator built to drive the Universe and time itself. Channelers accomplish their works by drawing small amounts(they have a limit to how much they can handle) of it into finite weaves. The Choedan Kal removes all limitations in drawing the One Power. Rand has dispelled the power cast directly by divine beings(e.g. the Dark One) with it.
“If you know 40K, and I am certain you do, you knows that a god in 40K would have no interest at all in blasting a mortal. The only thing we know is that Khorne is the biggest and the baddest, and that is of zero importance here.”
And that’s the rub. We’ve never seen the Blessing tested against such powers. It pretty much blocks everything in the mortal/psyker levels of power, but not the godly realm, which is why I don’t think it could be extrapolated to block attacks of that magnitude.
January 11, 2010
#81
You might very well call it the power of creation, but to my ears, and Khornes, it’s just magic. Magic isn’t always explained, but i’ve seen kind of similar natures of magic in other works of fiction. But if the Choedan Kal only allows a greater consumption of the stuff, it will be no different from his other spells excluding scale and possible spells he might only do when buffed.
As an aside, how can Rand use this power, if he wants, to fight the Creator? Wondered since I heard about it. If it is all his own creation, (like everything else,) how can someone pick it up and attempt to blast him with it? Shouldn’t the guy be able to stop that?
“And that’s the rub. We’ve never seen the Blessing tested against such powers. It pretty much blocks everything in the mortal/psyker levels of power, but not the godly realm, which is why I don’t think it could be extrapolated to block attacks of that magnitude.”
The power a god would use is the exact same as a psyker, only in greater quantity. As the gods themselves are made of the stuff that the Blessing is made of they might blast it, but there’s no way a being like an Alpha Plus can do anything. And Caco Domius himself would probably not be sufficent either, and he was a Triple Alpha. The thing is that in theory the Blessing has no limit, only a designed function. I still think that the Blessing is more dependant on structure than power. Ahh, let’s just drop it anyway. It’s not like either one of us will agree with the other, and Team Thor got themselves a win anyway. Doom get taken out with Choedan Kal right away, before all of Rands powers buff Thor to the max. Kharn can’t take that, so it’s a win in that way, even if magic cannot directly hurt Kharn.
January 12, 2010
#82
“As an aside, how can Rand use this power, if he wants, to fight the Creator? Wondered since I heard about it. If it is all his own creation, (like everything else,) how can someone pick it up and attempt to blast him with it? Shouldn’t the guy be able to stop that?”
It’s more of a theory than a certainty, as we’ve never seen anyone actually go toe-to-toe with the Creator with it, or even the Creator appear at all. In theory, if He is truly Omnipotent, then there shouldn’t be anything within His Creation that could threaten Him. The statement that it could go against the Creator was said by Lanfear, who explained to Rand that the CK could take on the Dark One(the Creator’s antithesis), or maybe even the Creator.
We do know that the Choedan Kal is capable of interacting with and even surpassing levels of power in the magnitudes of godly realms, since Rand was able to alter the nature of the True Source itself with it, dispelled a divine curse cast by the Dark One, and Lanfear(who has interacted with the Dark One and has a good idea of his powers, unlike with the Creator) said that the CK could overthrow him. I personally would place the CK below the Creator in power but above most gods, but it really goes into speculation quite a bit at that point, since we’ve never actually seen any limits on the actual power of the Choedan Kal, and it’s accomplished some feats that could only be called godlike.
January 12, 2010
#83
“Ahh, let’s just drop it anyway. It’s not like either one of us will agree with the other, and Team Thor got themselves a win anyway. Doom get taken out with Choedan Kal right away, before all of Rands powers buff Thor to the max. Kharn can’t take that, so it’s a win in that way, even if magic cannot directly hurt Kharn.”
/nods
I’ll agree to disagree. Team Thor for the Factpile Award.
January 12, 2010
#84
Wait a sec. In another discussion a debater points out that Rand no longer possess the Choedan Kal. He destroyed it. How is his powers without that? He probably still kicks ass, but when his scope is reduced i wonder if you still think he can blast Kharn.
January 14, 2010
#85
“Wait a sec. In another discussion a debater points out that Rand no longer possess the Choedan Kal. He destroyed it. How is his powers without that? He probably still kicks ass, but when his scope is reduced i wonder if you still think he can blast Kharn.”
He can still use balefire, sever connections to gods, and casually destroy cities. Without his big weapon, his best chance against Kharn would probably be in indirect attacks, such as thickening the air in the area to make it impossible to move or using a deathgate to slice open spacetime where Kharn is standing. It would depend on how the Blessing interacted with balefire and indirect attacks like that, which mostly falls to speculation. Who would win in that scenario isn’t really relavant, though, because if Kharn moved for Rand, then Thor would serve him Mjolnir to the face halfway there, while Rand toasts Doom.
January 14, 2010
#86
I’m not claiming a win here by any means. I’m just curious as to your stance on Rands direct strikes. And your answer is okay, you’re not among the “so what, he’ll PWN anyway suckah!” douches.
January 14, 2010
#87
“And your answer is okay, you’re not among the “so what, he’ll PWN anyway suckah!” douches.”
Though he would.
/wink
June 12, 2010
#88
I don’t know anything about Thor other then he is a “god” and know nothing about Karn or all that much about Doom but if you give Rand the Choedin Kal (I know I botched that) It will end very quickly. He has the power to destroy the world. Not to mention he was half insane (was since I am not sure he is anymore) He is going to fight the Dark One himself, the Devil essentially for those of you who don’t know, and if that doesn’t kill him, if Death Himself cannot kill you, I don’t know what can. (That book isn;t out yet so don’t know what really happens)
I cannot in all honestly give a trustworthy vote. It would be too biased by the fact I know nothing about the others. But Biased vote wise… Rand and Thor would have to win. Once again, don’t know nearly enough.