Suggested by Matapiojo
Well now, my all-time favorite sci-fi series in Robotech going against the powers of Star Trek. With all powers of all entities in play, Robotech couldn’t withstand whatever the Q Continuum wanted to do. However, should “Q” find the micronians interesting enough and let them battle un-impeded, Robotech would be able to take care of the Star Trek universe in time.
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July 8, 2009
#1
Sorry admin, but the scenario was a bit inconclusive. Are we or are not excluding the Q in this match?
If so, are we determining whether or not they would get involved?
That’s just to clear the air before jumping on the fun train.
July 8, 2009
#2
@Matapiojo – Let’s start by excluding them
July 8, 2009
#3
So…Macross or Robotech continuum?
July 8, 2009
#4
@ Belisaurius – No Macross, to me that’s a separate battle.
July 9, 2009
#5
Cloaked Romulan and Klingon fleets warp in, lay waste to Robotech Earth and other planets, then warp out. Borg swarms Robotech star systems and assimilates/destroys any survivors. The rest of the ST races sit back and watch.
July 10, 2009
#6
The Borg can assimilate the Robotech technologies.
July 11, 2009
#7
The Scimitar alone would discombobulate all of Robotech.
July 12, 2009
#8
Oh, hell, if this is Robotech coninuum, then any faction in the Star Trek verse could wipe the floor with the Robotech verse.
Try macross, popstar enhanced protodevlin could give the Qs a hard time.
July 12, 2009
#9
I can feel the fanboy starting to emerge…much like when Bruce Banner can no longer control the Hulk…
Just a quick note, I think the Zentradi armada alone could take care of the Federation, Vulcans, Romulan and Klingons…
July 12, 2009
#10
The Zentradi armada consists of almost 5 million ships. While that is an incredible number, I’m not really impressed with its firepower. In the final battle of the First Robotech War, the entire Zentraedi Grand Fleet appears in Earth’s orbit and opens fire.
“After folding into Earth orbit, the Grand Fleet fires on Earth, causing horrific damage – cities, houses, soldiers and children are all vaporized as the 4.8 million ships fire relentlessly. No area of the planet is spared by the barrage. All major cities are destroyed and the human population is reduced from 6 billion to only 70,000. ” -Wiki
95% of the Earth’s surface was devastated after a full barrage. That’s all the damage a fleet of 4.8 million ships can cause?
A small fleet of 20 Romulan and Cardassian ships destroyed 30% of a planet’s crust after only 5 seconds of bombardment.
July 13, 2009
#11
Does it give a time scale for the barrage?
July 13, 2009
#12
I did not see any timescales. It does say they fired “relentlessly” on the planet, so I’m guessing that the barrage lasted a few seconds at the least and that each ship fired several shots.
It’s still just pitiful when compared to the firepower of a small Star Trek fleet. 50 ships with a UFP technology level could do a much more effective and destructive bombardment in the same amount of time.
July 13, 2009
#13
The Robotech Masters & the Haydonites will be the backbone army instead of the incompetent humans of the Robotech universe…..
If we are going to exclude the Q then the Invid should be excluded also….
July 14, 2009
#14
This gets posted a lot as a standard for the power level of Starfleet weapons (I assume you are talking about the joint Tal Shiar/Obsidian order fleet that attacked the founders). There have been other instances of Alpha Quadrant ships firing on planets (for example the strafing runs carried out by Klingon Birds of Prey when Dax goes on the mission with the really old and senile Klingon to attack a Jem Hadar base). The weapons used there should not be orders of magnitude less powerful (if they were, Klingon Birds of Prey could simply be ignored by ships that can go toe to toe with a Cardassian Galor or a Romulan D’deridex), and they are having no noticeable effect on the surface of the planet, the atmosphere, etc. They are much more in line with showings like the Enterprise needing it’s entire complement of torpedoes to blow up one large asteroid.
What we do see in “The Die is Cast” is a thirty ship bombardment in which the surface-level explosions create fireballs in the megaton range at most, judging from fireball duration. No sub-orbital ejecta or even plasma was launched from planet’s surface at all. This is a case of the visualized aftermath superseding dialogue, which was hampered by the fact that the Founders were sending distorted signals from the surface of the planet (as we know, Trek sensors can be hampered by anything larger than a clock radio).
- – -
Up until now I had never heard of the Zentradi Empire (never watched Robotech), but from what few sources I can gather they are a force to be reckoned with. They are a galactic spanning civilization (possibly type II) whom have the industrial facilities and territorial holding to accommodate millions upon millions of four kilometer vessels and various smaller cruisers, even their scout vessels dwarf most Federation warships.
They are also capable of constructing several Fulbtzs Berrentzs class Home Bases, massive 1400km long battlestations.
Whether or not you contest their firepower, these is no denying their superior industrial capacity.
July 14, 2009
#15
“Up until now I had never heard of the Zentradi Empire (never watched Robotech), but from what few sources I can gather they are a force to be reckoned with. They are a galactic spanning civilization (possibly type II) whom have the industrial facilities and territorial holding to accommodate millions upon millions of four kilometer vessels and various smaller cruisers, even their scout vessels dwarf most Federation warships.”
Well, the humans of the Robotech Universe were able to suppress the Zentradis from annihilating them….Even on their Earth Invasion, Zentradi lost 30% of their fleet in a single fire of the planetary Ion Cannon in Alaska.
So in my Opinion, the Robotech Masters with their sophisticated Bioroids and more advanced bio-engineering are considered more powerful than the Zentradi.
July 14, 2009
#16
We don’t need to see magma when we already know that 30% of the crust has been destroyed. It’s perfectly fine if it’s the 30% outermost surface of the crust that’s destroyed. Also, if the visuals aren’t accurate to what the story is trying to portray then the visuals are wrong. “The die is cast” is the best example of planetary bombardment in Trek because the goal of the attack was specifically to destroy life on the surface.
The poor sensor readings is a silly argument. It’s ridiculous to believe military commanders would sanction an attack that would be a failure at worst and useless at best. The screwed up sensors was a ploy to make the combined Romulan/Cardassion fleets believe that life on the surface was being destroyed, not that the weapons weren’t capable of doing what the commanders thought they were doing.
You’re Trek knowledge is a little flimsy. Cardassion Galors are not in the same league as Romulan D’deridex Warbirds, as a Galor is no match for a Galaxy Class, unlike the Warbird.
Destroying the ground in a tv show is impossible with the kind of budget given so destructive estimates can’t be made off of visual evidence. It’s just not logical or honest. So the bird of prey argument is irrelevant.
Robotech weapon damage ranges are all over the place. They go from normal 20th century damage potential (coming from the F-14 like fighters) to being able to destroy half the surface of an island in a single blast (from the SDF-1). Supposedly the fighters are a threat to the main ship, so as great as the offensive abilities of the SDF-1, it’s defensive potential is not even close to Trek.
July 14, 2009
#17
*ahem*
I made a grave mistake, I confused Robotech with Battletech.
However, the Zentradi have been destroyed in the Robotech Universe, so if they are permissible as a faction, then so are the Tkon http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tkon_Empire
July 15, 2009
#18
Ah, the flimsy old weak knee-jerked “TV budget cannot produce the effects” excuse. If only I received a dollar for every time I’ve heard that.
So, when faced with a TV show whose producers have deliberately made it look a certain way, you propose we throw that out in favour of semantics? I see. Even though from this picture we can see that they’ve gone to the length of already generating the surface of a planet under full scale bombardment, what? Were there flash effects from the TOS too hard to use?
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q311/Lew88/Debate-1-pic1.jpg
TDiC demonstrates sufficient Trek firepower to cause less destruction at surface level than a large asteroid strike, with non-persistent fireballs, no visible ejecta whatsoever, and in fact, less surface luminosity than is generated from a large forest fire. In fact, the ONLY evidence that the ships in orbit were capable of anything more than surface-level destruction was one of several possible interpretations of a piece of dialogue, which is to say no conclusive evidence at all. Contrast this to their various attempts to destroy asteroids in “Rise” and “Pegasus” and “Cost of Living”, which are consistent with their observed firepower in TDiC but not with the unreasonable extrapolations derived from optimistic fanatics.
The first thing you get from a nuclear-level or greater blast is radiative ionization of an isothermal plasma sphere around the blast. This sphere will achieve temperatures far greater than the Sun’s core. As it cools and radiates energy to its surroundings while simultaneously expanding, you will eventually reach “hydrodynamic separation”, where the expansion catches up to the radiative fireball growth and begins to push out and create a shockwave. This shockwave (initially moving at tens of km/s for a kT-range blast) heats the air to many times the surface temperature (and brightness) of the Sun due to friction. It does not become transparent until the point of “breakaway”, when it has cooled to roughly half the Sun’s surface temperature and has slowed down to roughly 4 km/s.
In short, the problem with high-energy atmospheric detonations is that the air can only hold a certain amount of energy before it becomes plasma, and the laws of thermodynamics only allow it to expand and shed this energy to its surroundings at a limited rate due to blackbody radiation and hydrodynamics, so you invariably get a brilliant fireball with any sufficiently large release of energy in an atmosphere, and the more energy you have, the longer the fireball lasts.
Hence, we have obvious proof that these blasts are not the monster explosions you think they are (as if this isn’t obvious from just looking at their dull brown glory). The fireballs which should result from, say, gigaton-level energy releases should last for many minutes, and it is simply NOT POSSIBLE for shockwaves to move at hundreds of kilometres per second without glowing far brighter than the Sun. Don’t you know what happens when you try to push something through air at hundreds of kilometres per second? It burns!
Now onto your ridiculous argument:
1) “We don’t need to see magma when we already know that 30% of the crust has been destroyed. It’s perfectly fine if it’s the 30% outermost surface of the crust that’s destroyed.”
Which doesn’t abstain with anything ever seen in Trek beforehand or ever since. What? Did they teleport the crust off the planet and dump it into space?
2) “The poor sensor readings is a silly argument. It’s ridiculous to believe military commanders would sanction an attack that would be a failure at worst and useless at best. The screwed up sensors was a ploy to make the combined Romulan/Cardassion fleets believe that life on the surface was being destroyed, not that the weapons weren’t capable of doing what the commanders thought they were doing.”
A) Que? Did you even watch the episode? This is from the Startrek.com official synopsis.
“Episode No: 467
Air Date: 05.01.1995
Stardate: Unknown
The Die Is Cast
Synopsis
After rejoining his former Cardassian mentor, Enabran Tain, Garak helps him in a joint mission with the Obsidian Order and the Romulan Tal Shiar. Tain has masterminded a plan to destroy the Founders — Odo’s people, who rule the Dominion — and their homeworld. Tain, along with Colonel Lovok of the Tal Shiar, leads a fleet of cloaked Romulan and Cardassian ships into the Gamma Quadrant, commanding them from their Romulan Warbird. Garak is told to question Odo, who is being held prisoner aboard Tain’s ship. However, Odo says he knows none of his people’s secrets. On the station, Sisko learns of Tain’s mission, and is warned by Starfleet’s Admiral Toddman to prepare for retaliatory attacks by the Jem’Hadar.
Fearing Odo is aboard one of the Romulan ships, Sisko and his officers, including Security Chief Eddington, defy a direct order from Toddman and take the Defiant into the Gamma Quadrant to search for Odo. Soon afterward, the ship suddenly and inexplicably decloaks, leaving them vulnerable to attack by the Jem’Hadar, the Dominion’s soldiers. Meanwhile, as Tain, Garak, and Lovok head for the Founders’ planet, Tain urges Garak to interrogate Odo and learn if his people have a secret defense system. Garak agrees, but finds himself conflicted.
On the Defiant, Eddington confesses to sabotaging the cloaking device, under orders from Toddman to prevent pursuit of Tain’s fleet. Back at the Romulan ship, Garak interrogates Odo using a device that prevents him from changing his shape. Odo insists he is not hiding anything, but Garak persists, and Odo begins to literally dry up and fall apart. Unable to watch Odo’s excruciating agony, Garak begs him to talk, and Odo reveals his secret — he wants to rejoin his people. Shaken, Garak deactivates the device and lets Odo finally morph into liquid form.
Garak claims that Odo knows nothing, and Tain orders Odo killed. However, Lovok and Garak convince him to spare Odo for later Romulan study. The fleet then reaches the Founders’ planet and opens fire, destroying part of the surface, but there is no change in the life form readings. Garak discovers their ships have been lured into a trap — the planet is actually deserted. As he explains, their vessels are suddenly surrounded by 150 Jem’Hadar ships.
The Jem’Hadar attack, and Garak takes advantage of the chaos to escape and rescue Odo. Surprisingly, Lovok helps them get to their Runabout and reveals he is actually one of the Founders. His people learned of Tain’s plan and encouraged it in order to bait the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar into annihilation. Lovok tries to convince Odo to return home, but he refuses. Forced to leave behind Tain, Odo and Garak escape on their ship, and the Defiant rescues them from the Jem’Hadar assault. The Romulan/Cardassian fleet is destroyed as the crew returns to the Alpha Quadrant, barely escaping with their lives.”
Look at this quote again. It supports my contention that they were only talking about aesthetic surface damage, not the entire crust (which happens to extend well below the surface). And given that they were probably talking only about killing off the liquid blob that constitutes the Founder “ocean” on the surface, this is even less impressive. Once again, I feel I must remind you that it’s just not good debating technique to post information that refutes your own argument.
B) Considering that at several points throughout the episode military commanders had continuously contradicted themselves and their own intelligence, it stands to reason that their vessels were receiving faulty reports of surface damage. Especially when:
I) The Founders were relaying deliberately unqunatified readings back to the attacking vessels.
II) Trek sensors can be distorted by anything, from dense iron, exotic metals, gases, nebula and even the northern pole of a planet.
3) In fact, the ONLY evidence that the ships in orbit were capable of anything more than surface-level destruction was one of several possible interpretations of a piece of dialogue, which is to say no conclusive evidence at all, but curiously. In fact there is not one word to explain your assertion that the dialogue in question should be taken literally. In the 1980s, it was commonly said that the superpowers’ nuclear arsenals could destroy the Earth; did you also take that literally?
When the K-T mass-extinction “dino-killer” asteroid struck the Earth some 65 milion years ago, it produced a plasma jet of ionized matter which was hurled into space. This plasma jet glowed so brightly that it would blind anyone who looked at it, and when it came back down, it began to condense into liquid droplets and eventually superheated solid particles which showered down and started wildfires all over the entire planet. Yet this blast was totally inadequate to destroy 30% of the planet’s crust, and you have the audacity to claim that the feeble-looking dull brown clouds in in the scene are far more powerful than the dino-killer was?
It is painfully obvious that you have no real grasp of the kind of energies you’re talking about. All of your arguments are clearly couched in the language and mentality of mundane low-yield chemical explosives, not the kind of nuclear explosions or other mass-extinction events which merely scratch the surface of the kind of numbers you’d expect from wiping out a third of a planet’s crust.
- – -
The fact is, when it takes the entire Photon payload of a Galaxy-class vessel to shatter one 5km asteroid, I’ll continue to hold doubts as to their ability to destroy a third of a planet’s surface in a few seconds.
- – -
Funnily enough I’m pretty half assed in regards to most of these debates, but there’s always some weak kneed reactionary out there who has to call me out.
July 15, 2009
#19
Whew, I had a long lunch meeting there; I didn’t have a chance to wrap up my message before I posted it so I’ll conclude it now.
- – -
To destroy 30% of the crust of a planet, an individual would have to place over 796,68,578 gigatons of energy into the crust itself over any selected period of time. To pump this much energy (based on the non-existent principle of 100% efficient energy conversion yields) into the crust over the course of five seconds would require the use of:
1,195,028,670 Photon torpedoes (Based on the estimate of 1.5 kg of antimatter).
597,514,335 Quantum torpedoes (Not used by Romulans).
3,983,428,900,000,000 Phaser bursts.
142,857,142,857,142,857,142 Romulan Disruptor bursts.
Of course if we intended to be realistic about this and apply the most basic law of thermodynamics and state that no reaction is ever 100% efficient, and then equally offer a generous efficiency rate of only 50% (due to the omnidirectional nature of the blast), we start looking at a figure more like this.
2,390,057,340 Photon Torpedoes.
1,195,028,670 Quantum Torpedoes.
This is where common sense usually kicks in. We know that no Alpha quadrant power can carry this many emitters (Most Federation vessels have only 200 phaser emitters in the main array), and that both photon and quantum torpedo casings are quite large. Whilst there are no exact measurements at hand for torpedo casings, we know that they are frequently used as coffins during deep space burials; so assuming that the lower limit volume of the casing is equal to the average volume of a coffin (1375 cubed meters), the total number of required photon torpedoes would consume a volume of 3,286,328,842,500 (trillion) cubed meters.
To transport this many torpedoes into battle to produce the desired result of over 30% crust damage would require a vessel with a storage bay over 500,000 times the volume of a Galaxy-Class Federation vessel (About a seventh the size of our own moon) with the capability to launch nearly 500 million torpedoes per second. Even if we divide these figures amongst the thirty or so vessels that were bombarding the planet, the output is still ridiculously high for ANY Star Trek Alpha or Gamma quadrant power. Not even the Borg could compete with this level of firepower, as this essentially makes even the Doomsday machine look like a pop gun.
ultimately this is a classic example of onscreen evidence, past events and all known data contradicting one piece of dialogue which many have clung onto with abandon. If we genuinely believe that the fleet of thirty vessels could destroy 30% of the surface of a planet (meaning the actual destruction of the crust itself, and not the widespread environmental effects associated with nuclear detonations), we must assume that:
A) Each ship is capable of dumping over 531,123 gigatons of energy into the planet itself each second.
B) Therefore each lone ship is dumping the equivalent of over 150 Galaxy-class warp cores (the generator for the entire vessel) with each second of bombardment.
C) Thus we must ask the question, where have these uber weapons been the entire time? Whilst certain characters have made erroneous statements regarding firepower in the past (e.g. “I’ll turn the dial to 16 and blow up this building!”) If they’ve truly ever had the possibility of creating high ranged gigaton ranged weapons, their usefulness would have precluded themselves on the myriad of occasions that the Federation/Romulans/Klingons needed to vaporize multiple vessels, structures or aliens at close range. Simple calculations demonstrate that if this bombardment was conducted against a federation fleet, it could potentially vaporize over 152,704 Galaxy-class vessels in the blink of an eye, making any war of aggression a trivial matter at best.
The fact that a cubic meter of Tritanium has an energy threshold of only two terajoules certainly denotes that anything more than a single gigaton would vaporize the majority of a Galaxy-class vessel with the omnidirectional blast alone, let alone a direct impact. Said weapon would have been handy on more than a dozen occasions that I can recall.
- – -
Whilst the Alpha Quadrant powers are certainly impressive by their own regards, they are simply not in the planet killing energy ranges that most Trek fanatics would believe. So whilst I may seem jaded, I’ve spent the last two years listening to Trekkies who genuinely believed with conviction that the Federation could defeat the Galactic Empire, the Imperium of Man or even the Culture or Xeelee; thanks to such stupidity I feel that my methods have been tailored towards quashing such fanaticism before it becomes too vocal.
July 15, 2009
#20
“I’ve spent the last two years listening to Trekkies who genuinely believed with conviction that the Federation could defeat the Galactic Empire, the Imperium of Man or even the Culture or Xeelee; thanks to such stupidity I feel that my methods have been tailored towards quashing such fanaticism before it becomes too vocal.”
That explains somewhat why you seem to hate the Federation and all other Star Trek factions so much, but why did you listen to them(the trekkies) for two years if it annoyed you that much?
July 15, 2009
#21
Makes you wonder what the Xindi used to power their Super Weapon. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Xindi_superweapon
July 16, 2009
#22
“That explains somewhat why you seem to hate the Federation and all other Star Trek factions so much, but why did you listen to them(the trekkies) for two years if it annoyed you that much?”
I don’t hate Star Trek or any of her factions (in fact I enjoyed the series up until Voyager), I just dislike the fans who try and elevate the Quadrant powers beyond their current potential. Likewise, It’s kind of obvious at this point that I’m a Star Wars fanboy, yet not even I would be deluded enough to actually believe that the Galactic Empire could take on the likes of the Culture, or Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann (where mechas are capable of lobbing galaxies at a whim).
“Makes you wonder what the Xindi used to power their Super Weapon. ”
Enterprise bugged me for this sole reason, because it demonstrated that the 22nd century Federation were using weapons that were greater than their future counterparts. Their weapons actually worked when they needed to in a way that logic dictates.
Is the pesky Borg drone in your way? Dial your phaser up to 10 megajoules and blast him away regardless of personal shield adaption. Need to destroy a planet? Don’t use slow time consuming phasers, use a particle beam and just blast it away with a direct energy burst.
The problem with 23rd and 24th century defenses is that they are completely optimized for the prevalent weapons in their territory, and as we saw in “End game”, those defenses are useless against anything which isn’t phase and frequency coherent. Moreover, we saw that their transporters cannot penetrate thick unshielded armour. Yet the upgraded Voyager was considered to be the most advanced ship of the line, simply because it used thicker armour and tactical direct energy weapons. Did they keep records in the Federation?
After all, how they forget the value of particle beams, heavy armour or even bullets and scaled energy weapons in only a century?
July 20, 2009
#23
Wow L-W that was the saddest reaction I’ve ever seen. It’s sad and arrogant. I know you may mean to teach and that’s kind but it won’t help. That’s misguided. I’ve see Best of Both Worlds during the TNG run and I’ve seen first hand that visual special effects are flawed. The effects are meant to show a representation and are their the awe, and to help tell a story.
So, whom ever you are you’ve missed the point entirely. This isn’t a debate of the greatest technology in fiction, It can’t be. It’s something that can’t be equated. For example, you brought up Star Wars. Let’s use that. In Star Wars one of the motifs used in the story is nature vs technology and nature wins. Therefore, technology can not bring victory for the galactic empire, ever, that’s one of the underlying concepts in that fictional universe. Any any numerical argument anyone brings up, I’ve already heard. All they do is downplay the story and the visual effects that conveying something other than Force = mc^2 and more like Force= and energy field that surrounds us and binds us… Telling the story is again more important than the math, and those that look to hard at the numbers, well, they miss the point entirely.
Stories are just that, they tell a story. The stories of trek show that the Federation can basically come to a positive solution and the people involved will learn something. One important message from TNG was about opening one’s mind to the possibilities. And addressing L-W, your actions imply that you are far from that type of person. That’s what I find really sad, you come off as one dimensional and what’s worse, most people on this site thing of you as really smart. I’m sure you’re quite intelligent, but I’d prefer that you were applauded for a good reason.
Anyway, I’ve already mentioned how weak I think the defenses of robotech are, since there was so much technically odd about that show little can be really used in a serious argument, but it is what it is. The old school 60’s era Federation should take this quite handily.
PS: Thanks L-W, as far as tech goes in Trek Vs Wars, you’ve pushed me to remember something, so now I believe trek shields easily are far more useful than wars shileds as the Judicator got beat up very badly after being retrofitted to move into the orbit of a close orbiting planet (that still revolved) yet the Enterprise-D was able to hang out of a little while in a star’s corona with no significant damage after using an experimental design. All that you typed and now you’ve got me believing that the Federation might actually beat the Galactic Empire from both a tech stand point and from a literary standpoint.
Nice going
July 20, 2009
#24
Speaking of that, we really need to have a “Galactic Empire vs United Federation” match.
BTW Admin, has the Battle Requests section been closed to suggestions lately? I’m just making sure its not just me >.<
There shouldn’t be an issue as far as I know of. Just updated to the latest WP version so maybe that resolved something? – Admin
July 21, 2009
#25
1) Of course the special effects suffer from flaws, it’s an outdated television show that could barely afford the budget they were utilizing at the time; but the fact remains that they were still utilizing their limited effects to demonstrate what appeared to be less than megaton level surface explosions at best (when even a slight and inexpensive alteration in gradient would have sufficed); which practically falls in line with every other depiction of Star Trek weapons.
This is usually the first and poorest excuse that anyone brings to the table, and is usually the first to die in an opening engagement.
2) Notice how I don’t refute or claim victory for any faction, instead I merely refute the “30%” claim and demonstrate examples of Robotech engineering; I’m capable of presenting arguments from both courts rather than one.
3) …
Actually, there isn’t really a number three, the rest of your post is spent crying about how I lack an imagination, or only present a one dimensional argument. And? I’m not debating the finesse of storytelling here, I’m not questioning the questionable antics of the series writers, I’m merely presenting a sound argument based on visuals and the physical guidelines set by the series and actual scientific principles.
Now, take a kleenex, stop crying and present a real argument.
4) I would love to hear what arguments you have to support the Federation in a war against the Galactic Empire. Please, I am dying to hear what original ideas you have that I have yet to refute and shoot down like so many others.
As a final note, whilst Star Wars is far from being great literature, I suggest you refrain from suggesting that Trek writing standards or quality is any greater.
July 21, 2009
#26
“Enterprise bugged me for this sole reason, because it demonstrated that the 22nd century Federation were using weapons that were greater than their future counterparts. Their weapons actually worked when they needed to in a way that logic dictates.”
And that is the very reason I enjoyed Enterprise. I see it as more of a Consolidation series then anything else. While most of Star Trek was designed to be about the story, not the Science Behind it, and the era of the Airings reflected that. Heck in one of the ToS episodes, they encountered the Sun-God Apollo. Not some suped up Alien Lifeforme, the actual Apollo from greek Mythology. As the series developed they realized that logic must take part in the story telling for it to be believable, that’s an evolution of Television as a whole. Enterprise is considerably more technical and it consolidates alot of real world numbers with the fantastic Star Trek Technobabble. When I watch movies/TV, I make the assumption that the most recently released presentation provides the most canonical data. For example, a Photonic Torpedo was stated to be able to Put a 3km hole in an Asteroid. As of that moment, to me, the Episode where they said the entire Enteprise-D payload would be insuifficient to bust their way out of the Asteroid is ret-conned. (Further more, I take logic over story line anyway.)
To me, Enterprise is the baseline. Any TNG, VOY or DS9 Episodes where any weapon or technology is shown to be weaker/less effective/more useless then their Enterprise counterparts, then it has been retconned. Only the examples of weapons/technology shown to be considerably stronger/more effective/more usefull then their Enterprise counterparts are admissible. I can’t stand the relentless scrutinization that some people put into both Star Trek and Star Wars. They were never designed to be so disected. When the Special Effects guys designed the Phaser blast disintigrating an asteroid, I don’t think they did it with the thought that it will be so spitefully scrutinized or to be used in energy output calculations. I believe this is untrue for the majority of Star Wars, because it’s alot more coherent, but of course it would be. Star Wars is a set of 6 multi-million dollar movies. Star Trek is a range of 5 TV series’ spanning 50 years.
“Speaking of that, we really need to have a “Galactic Empire vs United Federation” match.”
Please don’t. The Galactic Empire would crush the Federation so easily, it’s not even funny. They have superior Firepower, Movement Capability, Industrial Capacity and Numbers.
July 21, 2009
#27
I had to duck off before properly finishing my post, so here’s the remainder:
Considering the Empire vastly overwhelms the Federation in:
A) Territorial holdings: Over several million worlds and thousands of protectorate governments Vs. 150 member worlds. Whoop.
B) Industrial capacity: One planetary factory is capable of producing three Star Destroyers per day, or 60% of a 900km battle station in six months. Whereas the Cardassian Union’s entire yearly capital ship production is equivalent to a single Star Destroyer, which is still greater than the production facilities of the Federation.
C) Vessel and station size: Imperial command craft dwarf their space stations, and Imperial space stations are the size of small moons. They have even built artificial planets in the past. The largest Federation starbases are less than a dozen kilometres in length.
D) Propulsion technology: Imperial vessels can cross the galaxy in a matter of hours. Federation warp drive is so slow that they require decades to cross their galaxy even at top speed.
E) Weapons output: Imperial weapons range from kiloton level missiles to 200,000,000 yottaton planet busting level superlasers. Ship mounted weapons can range from six megaton point defence lasers to multiple teraton heavy turbolaser rounds. The heaviest weapons in the Federation are in the high megaton ranges at best, in fact a single medium Imperial turbolaser shot is worth 3,125 photon torpedoes.
F) Shields: Imperial capital ship shields can survive direct hits from multi-gigaton nuclear warheads and turbolasers. Their planetary shields are far stronger, and can withstand days or weeks of sustained fleet bombardment with multi-teraton heavy turbolasers. Alderaan’s planetary shield actually blocked the Death Star superlaser for a split-second. Federation shields can survive only limited engagements against multiple megaton level warheads, in fact the shield of a mere pre-Imperial era Troop Transport vessel is twenty billion times greater than the shielding power of a Galaxy-class Federation vessel.
G) Communications: Imperisl ship subspace transceivers have a range of 100 light years. The Holo-Net permits real-time communication across the galaxy. Federation subspace transceivers have a range of 22 light years.
H) Power generation: Star Destroyers produce as much power as a small star, and Death Star hypermatter reactors produce millions of times the power of a typical main-sequence star. The unstable Federation matter/antimatter reactors can produce power on the order of 1E19 to 1E20 watts (the Acclamator generator provides 50,000 times more power per second than a Galaxy-class Federation vessel). Federation. fusion reactors are limited to the TW range.
Based on the above, do we really want to compare the Federation to the Empire technologically or militarily? Considering that a single TIE/Defender could go toe to toe with one of the largest known Federation vessels, any fight between the the two powers would easily result in the total destruction of the Federation (even if the Empire had both hands tied behind their backs). This is one fight that you do not want to pick.
If you still have trouble quantifying the scale of this war, look at this chart:
http://www.daltonator.net/fanfics/multi/images/scales/truesizes.gif
July 21, 2009
#28
“Please don’t. The Galactic Empire would crush the Federation so easily, it’s not even funny. They have superior Firepower, Movement Capability, Industrial Capacity and Numbers.”
I guess it wouldn’t be fair based on what I’ve heard. But really, I just wanted to see the arguments that would have been brought up
July 21, 2009
#29
There isn’t much evidence in favour of the Federation even stalling, let alone defeating the Empire.
July 22, 2009
#30
However you have to remember that the Galactic Republic (which is the same thing as the Galactic Empire) has been around for thousands of years, whereas the Federation is only a few hundred years old. In the future, as shown in episodes with Federation ships traveling back in time from the future, the Federation gets technologies that easily outrank that of the Empire. Meaning that actually the Federation IS more powerful then the Empire, just not in the time periods most commonly shown.
July 22, 2009
#31
Not really, even the 29th century Federation were not slugging around the kind of firepower that even the Republic has possessed 25,000 years earlier. The fact is that Voyager could easily go toe to toe with one of their shuttles in a direct fight.
The only advantage they had was time travel, which isn’t really an advantage when all they are doing is creating an alternate time dimension separate from their own, which does nothing to negate the initial problem of defeating the Empire. Heck, even the Borg had barely advanced in that time.
July 23, 2009
#32
@L-W
I like the Federation but they really are retarded sometimes when it comes to weaponry. I’d assumed that because their technology had advanced so much that they could travel in time that everything else would have advanced similarly. They still are more advanced then the Empire apart from weapons though being that they can travel in time quite easily.
August 12, 2009
#33
I am going to once again shoot down the ICS and the wank-a-tons as I did in SWvsHalo.
First page of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith.
The gnats are drive-glows of starfighters. The shining
hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful
enough to vaporize a SMALL TOWN. The planetoids are cap-
ital ships. End quote.
And then we have the BDZ that never happened in The Hutt Gambit which had ground troops stated to be sent down AFTER the BDZ was done.
But its late and I’ll quote it in the morning. Page numbers for the first part of what I am going to quote from The Hutt Gambit are 223-224.
And is any one else running into this error: HTTP 500 Internal Server Error.
I keep getting that every time I click on the Star Wars vs Halo thread and several others since yesterday.
August 14, 2009
#34
Yes, I get that probably every once in awhile and I’m not able to go into that specif match for the whole day.
Try using a different internet browser when that happens ( especially if your using Internet Explorer ) When it happened to me yesterday, I switched to Mozilla Firefox and it worked.
August 27, 2009
#35
While there is still a breath in my body I will vote against Star Trek.
September 25, 2009
#36
Damn it, I can’t open up the Star Wars Vs Halo thread anymore, the thousand odd posts just keep shorting out the thread entirely leaving me with a HTML failed message. Either way I have some putting down to do:
1) Frieza, the only thing you’ve been shooting is blanks (at your own foot, of all places). Seriously, your stunning lack of grasp over the most basic scientific principles would leave even Karen Traviss choking in your dust. Come back when you’ve at least grasped a basic understanding of thermodynamics for one thing.
2) The small town bit isn’t particularly useful unless you can define the are of a small town. Although given your track record, your affinity for vague and unquantified statements should really come as to no surprise.
At its maximum size, the surface temp of the fireball is 7000 degrees Celsius (although this also assumes that a turbolaser behaves like a nuclear blast. Hint: It doesn’t), sufficient temperature for vaporization. For a nuclear detonation at peak scaling, the fireball radius in feet is equal to 145 times the yield in kt to 0.35. In other words, the formula is r=145*y^0.35 , where Y is KT and R is in feet.
Now here is how it gets tricky, how big is a small town? My hometown in Israel is classified as a village by local standards, but has a population of 20,000 and a surface area of 6.8 square miles. Thus the yield required to vaporize (not just blast) the area would be 151 MT (consistent with the lighter guns). But Exeter, Rhode Island, with its population of 6,000 (United States law states that anything smaller than 10,000 is classified as a “small” town – whereas large town have populations of 100,000’s) has a surface area of 57.71 square miles, requiring a yield of 3,735 MT (nearly 4 gigatons to vaporize). So depending on how big the town gives you different yields. And that’s taking a simplistic look at it by comparing temperatures. Specific heats enter into it so really you should figure out the energy applied over and area and scale it (which would actually make the blast larger than the 200 gigaton figure written in the ICS) according to the composition of the judicial area, which could raise the energy necessary for total vaporization of the surface area by over an order of magnitude.
Of course you could just simply be a borderline Creationist moron that assumes that each every turbolaser is built the same for the exact same purpose, whereas we know of dozens of variants designed for specific tasks (artillery, point-defence, heavy, anti-armour, bombardment etc.).
3) Once again assumes that every BDZ operation is going to be carried out uniformly across the factions and the breadth of the galaxy itself accordingly in the exact same process, rather than to the whims of the Captain in question, such as:
A) The bombing of Taris which was ordered to destroy the upper city centers only.
B) Canderous Ordo’s famed assaults against the core worlds during the Mandalorian wars “What’s a few continents turned to glass, if you have the whole world in the end?”.
C) “The planet of Humbarine was left with inadequate defenses during the conflict, which saw General Grievous leading Separatist forces in an hour-long bombardment from his flagship the Invisible Hand. This act completely depopulated the planet and melted its crust.” – ROTS: ICS
D) “It was still not known who the attackers had been who had come out of nowhere to systematically and ruthlessly burn off the planet” (Spectre of the Past, p.48)
E) “… to rendezvous at Dankayo and reduce the tiny base to molten slag. Even before the last of its atmosphere drifted away, before the dense clouds of atomized topsoil could begin to settle, Imperial transports Elusive and Timely, as well as a complement of TIE fighters, moved in to perform “mop-up” operations and a through search of Dankayo’s now evenly-cratered surface” (Scavenger Hunt, p.3)
F) “I know that the Grissmaths shipped their political prisoners there, in the hopes that they’d starve to death, and set automated gun stations all over the planet to keep them from being rescued. I know that the prisoners not only didn’t oblige them by dying but that their descendents — and the descendents of the guards — are still farming the water seams while the Grissmath homeworld of Meridian itself is just a ball of charred radioactive waste.” (Planet of Twilight p.4)
G) “Sunlight rippled across a sea of shimmering glass. Glass that had once been part of iridescent domes, towering minarets, soaring archways, vertical towers, and all the other structures that constitute a city. A city reduced to a sea of manmade lava, as Imperial laser cannon carved swathes of destruction through the once-beautiful metropolis.” (Jedi Knight, p.47)
H) Since the operation that was to be carried out on Nar Shaddaa in The Hutt Gambit was described as a BDZ as well, and the commanding officer expected to search through ruined cityscape afterwards, this means there are several degrees of destruction available to the commander in charge (not surprising, since turbolasers have variable yields). Some BDZs only destroy assets on the surface across the entire planet, while the more severe bombardments like the ones described in AOTC:ICS, go further down into the target world.
Either way the goal of the BDZ is dependent on the desires of the commanding Officer who issues the order, much like the process of Covenant glassing does not designate total planetary destruction (such as Voi, Harvest, Reach etc.).
September 25, 2009
#37
Try now, I can get in quite easily….
December 6, 2009
#38
I may be a fan mostly of the ‘Trek’ but I have to admit that if SDF1 were to fire it’s main cannon, then the Enterprise D (TNG prodused around the same time as Rodotech, so this would be a logical conparasion;) and most of the Fedration Fleet would be history (in a bad way).
On the other hand a Galaxy class starship can seporate, making the Enterprise two ships in one. plus the Enterprise is shorter , not to menthin she can hold Worp speed for a longer pieread of time in caparison to Folding.
Saying that, the Zentraedi are able to overpower the Klingon Empier, (well thay are bigger then the Klingons, Size wise that is,)
To conclode; Star Trek ships have the edge when it comes to speed, but are no match for the wepones from Rodotech.
‘Live Long and Rodotrek’ (i have a habit of adding random things to the end of ‘Live Long and…’)