@Admin

I’ll be honest with you. I’m inclined to take Rand Al’thor’s side because of balefire…

But why not make it a two stage battle. One where it’s swords only and another where they go all out.

What say you?

Also, are they fighting in a desert or a forest?

Well, I think that in a straight sword fight Rahl could take it with his Dance of Death or whatever. Also the fact that he can draw from the experience of hundreds, maybe thousands, of warriors will give him the edge.

As for magic, I’d give it to Rand because I have a feeling that Rahl’s magic relies on “need” to work it. Whereas Rand seems to be in full control of his abilities.

That’s what I have grasped from the information provided by others in this site and from skimming through the books.

If I am wrong, in any possible way, feel free to smite me. I am here to learn.

@Rorschach

There’s a difference here. My knowledge on these characters is fairly limited. Unlike you I am no newbie on this site….Don’t forget that I am your senior.

@Rorschach

We’re not using that Legend of The Seeker canon. We’re using Sword of truth canon, Rahl’s book version

@Rorschach

Legend of The seeker literally butchered the Sword of Truth canon. Other than names and central plot almost everything else changed. I also know that the characters’ fighting prowess was toned down ( a lot).

Now we wait for the ones with higher authority like AHEM, Mazrim, Matapiojo or Admin himself to say their piece. I have said mine and I believe that I was rather accurate, especially given that my knowledge on them is limited.

Ah! I’ve been waiting for this battle for a long while, and now I can finally give my opinions.

In a sword fight, these two are very closely matched. Richard took on a whole group of blademasters, two or three at a time in multiple waves, and slaughtered them all. However, Rand has also held his own against, and disarmed and defeated, multiple blademasters coming at him at once. He finds the best warriors in the land and then competes against all of them at once.

Richard has the Sword of Truth, unbreakable and incredibly sharp, fueled by his anger, but Rand wields a power-wrought sword which can not be broken and is shaprer than any ordinarily forged razor.

Richard has the experience of countless previous Seekers in his head, turning him into the absolute pinacle of skill and deadliness with a sword, but Rand is a blademaster in his own right and training without any such enhancements, and he practices and invents dozens of sword forms in combat.

Richard can draw upon his anger to make his strikes unnaturally fast and powerful, but Rand can fortify himself using the Void to grant him increased pain tolerance, heightened reflexes, and unshakable calm. Think of it like Drizzt Do’Urden’s Hunter aspect, only in a state of emotionless calm instead of controlled fury.

They’re both taller than most men, and described as heavily muscled and very fast for their sizes, and they both can withstand pain that would make a lesser men beg for death.

Rand has the home field advantage, and has spent much more time in, and had fights in, arid environments than Richard has.

In short, it would be a fantastic sword fight to witness, and would probably have a different outcome in every individual fight. For the first match, it could go either way.

“Is it just me, or do those pictures make them look identical?”

Rand has red hair. Rahl has dark hair. Other than that, though, their faces and clothes do look kind of similar . . .

It’s fitting, I think, as the two have very similar roles within their own stories, and it’s possible that Rahl was based partially on Rand.(The two series have many similarities, and Rand existed four years before Rahl.)

By the way, Admin, when you say, “Power-forged sword” do you mean one of the indestructible metal swords that last for thousands of years, like the Heron Mark Sword Rand used to have, or the Power-forged swords of fire that Rand often creates and uses in place of a regular sword? The latter would be more probable in this duel, as Rand doesn’t have the Heron sword anymore but uses the blade of fire as one of his primary weapons.

Haha. I knew that requesting this every day would end up making it happen. Glad I decided to do so, because this is the one duel I’ve really been looking forward to. First, let me clear this up: Rand does not have any advantage due to balefire. Yes, balefire is a one hit KO, however, Richard has a very similar power when he combines both additive and subtractive magic to make that crazy black lightening. Anything touched by that is instantly vaporized. In terms of combat skill, these characters are nearly even, however, I think that Richard has a bit of an advantage in sword play, while Rand seems to have a bit of an advantage in magic powers.

Richard does use his powers through need, however, I think that he would quickly realize his need through fighting an enemy like Rand.

In terms of magical feats, Rand and Richard have done some fairly nuclear sh*t. Richard destroyed the barrier between the new and old world that it took many War Wizards to create in the first place. Rand, however, cleansed the taint on Saidin, annihilated miles upon miles of the Aiel Waste (which is where this battle takes place), and, at on point, held enough Saidin to completely destroy the planet in one blast of balefire. Unaided, he nearly destroyed the royal castle of Andor, he is one of the only channelers to use balefire without aid, he has managed to capture or kill almost every single forsaken, and he is proficient with all elements.

I’m going to go ahead and say that I think Rand has this. It would be a tough and grueling fight, but when it comes down to it, I think magical usage is what will determine this one. While I think Richard could hold his own for a while, he simply doesn’t have enough knowledge of his own skills. The only advice he ever really had on how to use his magic was a book with blank pages. Rand, on the other hand, has had the mind of one of the most powerful Aes Sedai to ever live dwelling inside of his own mind, teaching him little tricks and things. Rand has been known to bring back weaves that haven’t been seen since the Age of Legends. He has summoned massive lightening storms, leveled mountains, brought water to deserts, created walls of fire, and rediscovered teleportation, just to name a few things. His talent for creating new weaves on the go, even in the heat of battle, is what I think will determine this battle.

“First, let me clear this up: Rand does not have any advantage due to balefire. Yes, balefire is a one hit KO, however, Richard has a very similar power when he combines both additive and subtractive magic to make that crazy black lightening. Anything touched by that is instantly vaporized.”

The black lightning is entirely subtractive and does not require additive magic to create and use. Richard does sometimes combine the two to form stronger lightning, but that results in a dualism-styled chain of normal lightning and black lightning together.

Subtractive magic doesn’t vaporize things, by the way. It consumes them and sends them to the Underworld. If they were vaporized, there would be a vapor residue left over from where the solid matter was turned to gas. Subtractive lightning leaves nothing behind.

Anyway, should he choose to use subtractive magic against Rand, Richard will run into a problem; Rand’s magical shields and defenses.

Richard has never really demonstrated any spells that protect his body, save for some air manipulation to slow down or stop uncoming arrows. Rand, however, has covered his body in shields that have stopped powerful magic attacks at point blank range, and woven wards around areas that specifically counteract certain advantages of his enemies, such as killing any Shadowspawn that cross them, or sounding an alarm when an enemy draws near.

Subtractive lightning has penetrated magical shields before, but only of wizards and sorceresses who wielded only the additive. If judged by SoT standards, Rand would be considered to have both additive and subtractive magic, given that he can change and create as welll as destroy.(Such as through Balefire.) It isn’t a sure thing that Richard would be able to hurt Rand at all with his subtractive magic, while Richard has no equivalent defense against balefire.

Damn, I didn’t think about that when I suggested it. Personally, Ahem, I don’t think one could say that balefire woud be subtractive. If I had to do a comparison, I’d say that the True Power, the power of Shaitin, is closer to subtractive magic. To say that Balefire could be considered subtractive, would mean that Richard could potentially block balefire with his own subtractive magic. I have to agree with you though; Richard isn’t really known to use any wards or shields, though it is conceivable that he could do so, as his talent with magic relies on his own instinct and need.

I’d say that either character’s best bet against either Balefire or Subtractive lightening would be physical skill, aka, dodging. Balefire and Subtractive lightening have both been dodged numerous times in both series, so it’s certainly not impossible.

I see what you’re saying though, which is that, even though it would be an interesting fight to see, Rand certainly has the upper hand through feats of magical strength. Richard hasn’t done anything near what Rand has done in the heights of his power, and Rand is known to go into battle with a big bang. Quite frankly, he doesn’t f*ck around. While Richard would be trying to charge Rand with the Sword of truth, or trying to build up enough need to use his magic, Rand would simply engulf the entire area in flames.

Sorry for the triple post, but I forgot something. AHEM, if I were to decide to write a short story about this duel, would you be able to help me out a little? You are easily as knowledgeable about both universes as I am, and I would be grateful to have your help on such a subject.

Balefire is unblockable is No Limits Fallacy. For example, Subtractive magic sends everything it comes into contact with into the underworld. Balefire makes everything it touches cease to exist. What happens if Subtractive lightening hits Balefire? Probably a paradox that destroys the universe…

@Johnnyquest, there was a time when two bursts of Balefire touched each other. All it really did was give the two wielders headaches and dizziness.

BTW, I think No Limits Fallacy can be taken farther or disregarded when dealing with magic, because, well, it’s magic.

(AHEM, I know the One Power is more like the Force, but still.)

A No LImits Fallacy is when a phenomenon that is poorly understood or has not yet encountered any limits is extrapolated to infinity. Balefire being unstoppable isn’t a No Limits Fallacy; it’s exactly what is stated in the canonical books of the Wheel of Time. Nothing can stop it, no magical shields, no armor, no weaves, nothing. The closest thing is the indestructible Cuendillar, which balefire reflects off of and keeps going, probably to avoid the paradox of an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. Since Richard doesn’t have any Cuendillar on him, and has never really used magical shields anyway, the odds of him somehow blocking balefire are next to zero.

In addition, as galorian said, balefire has the advantage of removing whatever it touches from temporal existence, something that subtractive lightning cannot do. If balefire hit a web of subtractive lightning, then said lightning would no longer have existed in recent history, and thus, balefire encountered no resistence, nothing happened to start a paradox, Richard never counterattacked, Rand is unharmed, and Richard is no just a memory.

I didn’t say that balefire was necessarily made of the same subtractive magic seen in SoT, just that it would be ‘considered’ to be subtractive in nature and function by the standards of SoT. In SoT, any magic that destroys or takes away from the world is subtractive, and that is what balefire does. The True Power doesn’t fit quite as well, because it can be used for non-destructive purposes as well as destructive, though it is primarily harmful.

“Sorry for the triple post, but I forgot something. AHEM, if I were to decide to write a short story about this duel, would you be able to help me out a little? You are easily as knowledgeable about both universes as I am, and I would be grateful to have your help on such a subject.”

What kind of help?

“Mainly a proof read to make sure I haven’t made any mistakes in terms of the characters and their abilities.”

Sure, I suppose I could do that.

seconded.

I hope admin won’t be too bummed out by this turn of events.

My knowledge is severly handicapped on these two subjects, what are they’re powers?

Factpile award? Already? But we haven’t really gotten any arguments in favor of Richard yet! And I barely even scratched the surface of how these two would fight it out with magic.

C’mon, seriously, surely someone will defend the Lord Rahl? Admin? Anyone?

Long Live Richard Rahl and Long Dead Rand. That’s how I sized up your explanation on how these two charaters are compared to one another. It must really be the works of the author’s imagination in putting those awesome powers in their characters. Imagine Rand being that invincible and so monstrous at the same time. No qualms about destroying universes. Universes, my dear. And humans of course! I’m not surprised Richard Rahl keeps on saying “I hate magic”. He must really be coming to a level already that he is now getting to understand what this awesome gift can do to him and to his soul. Only in my nightmares!

Hi. Me again. I’m really awed at the level of powers the heroes of these battles possess. And I get to see how “insignificant” on how it looks and described in the books, R. Rahl’s powers compared to them. i read the books of SOT and I like how the author describes how the power is acquired, learned and used. I have’nt read the other books actually except the books on Starwars. In both SOT and Starwars, the authors’ description is for me more real that just a pigment of imagination. I read a lot of books on metaphysics, mind power, inner mind, theophysics, whatver comes on hand that has everything to do with hidden yet potent powers of man (i.e., the gifted). These books I mentioned somehow describes how powers are learned and used, based on certain principles and logic. Yes, logic! I was even surprised that the books even mentioned mathematical principles and the use of continuum ratios (hope i got it right). The truth is I love the vales and principles imbedded in these books. The Jedis’ and the Seeker’s principles. They’re immortal. How can anyone beat them?

Thanks Blood Dancer. I do love Richard Rahl and Anakin Skywalker. I thought this discussion wiould cover not just the “displayed and known” to us powers of the characters. Whatabout getting out of the box and probe on the yet to be known “unknown” powers of our heroes.

Would Richard Rahl be able to use a Mord Sith?

@JA, no, a Mord Sith would certainly be considered to be outside help, which is not allowed in these duels unless specifically stated. For this battle, all Richard, and Rand for that matter, has is himself.

“The total number of blade masters was 50, if memory serves. With just a sword, I don’t think Rand could match that.”

It was 30.

ah I have been awaiting this battle for a long time……

On the surface it seems as if Rand would win at full power and Richard would win in a blade fight. I will have to go into detail another time. While Ricard Rahl has the skills to defeat Rand in an all out sword match I dont think that His Magic will suffice against Rand….Its a 50/50 win win for both depending on what they do. But this would be an epic battle to watch from a long long distance away.

“On the surface it seems as if Rand would win at full power and Richard would win in a blade fight. I will have to go into detail another time. While Ricard Rahl has the skills to defeat Rand in an all out sword match I dont think that His Magic will suffice against Rand….Its a 50/50 win win for both depending on what they do. But this would be an epic battle to watch from a long long distance away.”

Maybe Richard could take this at close range, but I doubt he could match Rand magically. Rand has a lot of abiliites than Richard could not duplicate, as well as the memories of Lew Therin Telemon inside his head (kind of like Richard’s blade skills, only for magic instead), and more raw power. The biggest feat of magic Richard performed was killing +1000 horsemen at once. Rand has slaughtered armies of Trollocs many times that size, reformed landscapes, and inflicted sufficient casualities on a vast Seanchan army by himself to force them to retreat.

So what im thinking and hearing is in a purely physical sword fight Richard takes it unless Rand is using one of his Saidin swords but in terms of magic Rand wipes the floor with Richard….. how felicitous….

Well, it’s been eleven days without a post on this duel. In my opinion, there has been sufficient evidence given that the Dragon Reborn would be victorious in this battle.

So, once again, I nominate Rand al’Thor for the FP Award.