“- Why? They can punch right through SM armor, and I see very little to imply Zealot shielding being tougher than that. ”

They can tank thousands of 30mm explosive shells for around a second.

“- Source?”

Frontline. Do you want me take a photo of it?

“- All of which has been strangely mute even as Auir burned.”

The Protoss had a Civil war, we don’t know how large it was.

“So the goliath autocannons can outdo a modern tank’s main gin in about a second. While impressive it is completly outdone by the imperial autocannon which is stated to unleash 60 kilotonnes of kinetic energy in one shot. Thats not counting the power of the explosive ammunition. I put that through an energy converter I found online and apparently thats equal to 251040000 megajoules. Now it is stated in one of the Gaunt Ghost’s books that heavily armed and fortified imperial guard positions will flee instead of risking an engagement with traitor marines. loyalist space marines wearing similar power armour are wary of tau pulse rifle fire.”

One, I severely don’t trust that energy conversion. Where are you getting your info on the power of its explosive shells?

Two, Prove that Space Marines can take auto-cannon fire, don’t just say that the Imperial guard fleeing obviously means that Power armor can take those shells. The statement is vague as hell.

Alright, finally took photos of Frontline:

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/695/0000149.jpg

Alright, this proves that Protoss ships can enter into very low altitude in an atmosphere with their FTL drives. Even their fighters can do it.

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/937/0000150.jpg

Twilight Archons can seemingly cause devastation seen from orbit.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/3579/0000151.jpg
Two Protoss shuttles have shields that can defend it from an exploding planet’s energy. Protoss shuttles that have no weapons mind you.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6784/0000154.jpg

A protoss Zealot taking loads of Hydralisk spines. This is the Protoss’s first mission and her shields are not taken down at all in the entire battle. She lowers them later however, to do some psionic like healing later though on a Resoced Terran.

These Spines are described at SC2.com:
“Thanks to the remarkable musculature of a hydralisk (4,000 muscles compared to a terran’s 629), the penetrative force delivered by a hydralisk spine is quite astounding. A single spine can easily penetrate 2 cm of solid neosteel even at maximum range. Under any circumstances, massed groups of hydralisks should be approached with extreme caution and preferably siege tank support.”

And are capable of pinning a full grown human in power armor into a wall with just one spine.

“Breanne pitched back from the gun port. A single spine from a hydralisk had found its way through the faceplate of the lieutenant’s combat suit. Hideously, it passed through her head and pinned her combat helmet to a neosteel support. Lieutenant L. Z. Breanne hung there, still standing.”

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9075/0000153a.jpg

Here we see the use of phase prisms teleporting Protoss directly from one planet to another.

Where exactly did I say that the explosion from the autocannon shell was 60 killotonnes? Its the kinetic energy that is 60 killotonnes it makes no mention of the shell detonating. Autocannons are standard heavy weapons of the IG so I think it would be a fair assumption to think they would have heavy weapons in a fortified position. I told you where I got the number from. Its in the book Emperor’s Mercy by Henry Zou. I am unable to provide a direct quote at the moment but I will on the weekend.

As for the pictures you posted.
First those shuttles looked pretty far away from said planet and protoss shields have consistently been shown to be visible when something impacts them but we see no such thing from the shuttles.
Secondly isnt the scene of the supposed planetary destruction actually a archon teleporting a crystal to a protoss ship?
Third we dont know how strong hydralisk spines or neo steel is so whoopdee freaking doo.
Here is the link to the energy converter I used
http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/megajoules-to-kilotons-conversion.html

Quote 1 is from I,Mengsk.

Quote 2 is from Speed of Darkness.

“Can you post the page of what happens after the explosion cause it looks to me at least that the shuttles are powering up for a jump or teleport. The wiki states that they escaped the blast instead of endured or were protected from it.”

The Next page just shows them in a protoss fleet. It does not show the shuttles. It shows fighters and capital ships. Seeing that nothing states that it is Protoss FTL and looks nothing like it, Im assuming they took the blast and than left.

“As for the twilight archon remember there has only been one created.”

Seeing that in SC2 you can create them all the time by mixing High Templar and Dark Templar, it won’t be as rare as you think. They are just called archons though.

“Thats interesting about the armour being able to resist gauss fire but not hydralisk spines cause according to the wiki the spines are launched “with enough force to penetrate 2 cm. of neosteel.”

What does this have to do with anything?

“So that would make them inferior to the gauss rifle which is said to penetrate 2 inches of steel plating which you have said is neosteel.”

I gave an example of Gauss Rifles before the Guild War, when they used different rounds than during the Brood War. Also, though it states 2cm, we see more penetration in the quote I gave you. What does this have to do with now?

‘Was just noting something that looked like a contradiction. ”

After looking at the source,(which I mistaked for another earlier) It could be paristeel.

“As for twilight archons they have been replaced with regular archons and it seems that when a dark templar and a high templar merge they form a regular archon due to the templar caste sharing the rite with the dark templar.”

I know you just copied the wiki. Thats a contradiction in itself because we know different energies at work. I have a story that states Twilight Archons are formed when DT and HT merge. You have the wikipedia which gets its info on that from a fan-site that got its info from gameplay. As for now, seeing that this won’t be cleared up for two years due to Legacy of Void being the last part of SC2, the story is the highest canon we have regarding the issue.

“As for the quote about the autocannon. Basically it covers the death of a commanding officer who is in a bunker, firing on the enemy when a light tank with an autocannon fires at the bunker, which is the last thing he sees as the bunker is destroyed by sixty killotonnes of kinectic energy.”

Can I have the direct quote? Also, kinetic energy and explosive energy are calculated a little different IIRC. I’ll wait til this weekend if I have to.

”

Oh, guess what, new image I found from the Starcraft comics showing us the aftermath of a purified world.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310/blargh12/bombard.jpg

The Planet is still molten blue years after the bombardment.”

No, wrong planet. Thats what Urona Sigma looked like after the bombardment. Let me find the thing I was talking about.

Can you give me the paragraph before and after?

What differance does that make exactly?
Before “Enemy fire intensified, chopping in the guard positions. The Archenemy were upon them now. Ironclad infantry dismounted from their motorised convoystruggling up the hill. To Pradal’s right, a light tank rolled in line with the forward pillbox. Its turret slowly traversed, lining up with the fortification with a chain fed autocannon”
After “Half a kilometre up, a whickering salvo of enemy fire belted the highest defensive line. Defensive breastworksbore the ruptured scarring of heavy calibre rounds.”

Why cant it be 60 kilotonnes? The specific example we have of damage cause by the autocannon is it demoloshing a rockrete fortification. If that number sounds fantastic well at one point they were using a heavy bolter to turn boulders into fragmentation grenades. I have next to no knowledge of physics or science in general but isnt kinetic energy the force propelling something and then is transfered to another object during impact? So that would explain why we dont have mushroom clouds apearing everytime the gun fires. The KL5 is described as a light tank so I think its pretty common

“Why cant it be 60 kilotonnes? ”
Because we see no large explosive effects.
“The specific example we have of damage cause by the autocannon is it demoloshing a rockrete fortification. ”

Only Thirty centimeters thick. Tyranids can rip thorugh these barricades with only physical force proves that it is no 60 kilotons.

“If that number sounds fantastic well at one point they were using a heavy bolter to turn boulders into fragmentation grenades.”

So? That sounds reasonable compared with its affects in other sources.

“I have next to no knowledge of physics or science in general but isnt kinetic energy the force propelling something and then is transfered to another object during impact?”

Yes, but enough kinetic energy in it can make it cause an explosion.

“Projectiles which do not contain an explosive charge are termed kinetic projectile, kinetic energy weapon, kinetic warhead or kinetic penetrator. Classic kinetic energy weapons are blunt projectiles such as rocks and round shot, pointed ones such as arrows, and somewhat pointed ones such as bullets. Among projectiles which do not contain explosives are those launched from railguns, coilguns, and mass drivers, as well as kinetic energy penetrators. All of these weapons work by attaining a high muzzle velocity (hypervelocity), and collide with their objective, converting their kinetic energy into destructive shock waves and heat.”
-Wikipedia.

It has enough kinetic energy to act like a small time nuke.

“So that would explain why we dont have mushroom clouds apearing everytime the gun fires.”

It doesn’t explain it though because of the massive amount of kilo-ton kinetic energy.

“The KL5 is described as a light tank so I think its pretty common”

USA can have a light tank that shoots plasma, and there could only be one of them. Just because it is designated light does not mean they come in large numbers.
“

Carnifexes have claws that rip through fucking adamantium the same stuff that plasma weapons are usually used to crack. You know the guns that fires a projectile that detonates with the power of a small sun?
We dont know how strong rockrete is so isnt it possible that alot of the enrgy could have been absorbed by the bunker?

“Carnifexes have claws that rip through fucking adamantium the same stuff that plasma weapons are usually used to crack. You know the guns that fires a projectile that detonates with the power of a small sun?”

Proof of power of small sun.

“We dont know how strong rockrete is so isnt it possible that alot of the enrgy could have been absorbed by the bunker?”

If so, they would have used them as standard material, which they don’t………. There are only two mentions of rockrete in the entire series of WH40K from my searches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eICyqjtsizo

Just in case you didn’t get the reference.

“Does that meet your requirements?”

No, in combat as shown feats.

“Whats the difference? This is said by a veteran guardsman who has fought in countless wars. Id think he would know what is and isnt effective against traitor marines.”

But we can’t prove hes telling the truth. Provide infallible in combat evidence, I have, and I expect the same from you. From that message, we don’t know what kind of bolter rounds, the amount fired, the range they are fired from, the effects on the armor if it had any, and other data. We can get this from in combat, not from vague statements.

” They can tank thousands of 30mm explosive shells for around a second.”
- And be taken down by simple plasma-based flamethrowers…. What did Pulse rifles fire again? Its on the tip of my tongue. Granted this was after encountering a squad of Marines, but you make it sound as though the Zealot’s shields are hardly affected, so it was all on the plasma-based flame throwers (3 to be exact) on two Zealot shields. Not really that impressive.

” The Protoss had a Civil war, we don’t know how large it was.”
- So your basically citing that the Protoss has a galactic empire with sufficent resources to fight the Tau…. and then say you really have no Freakin’ idea. Brilliant.

“- And be taken down by simple plasma-based flamethrowers…. What did Pulse rifles fire again? Its on the tip of my tongue. Granted this was after encountering a squad of Marines, but you make it sound as though the Zealot’s shields are hardly affected, so it was all on the plasma-based flame throwers (3 to be exact) on two Zealot shields. Not really that impressive.”

And in that same squad were two Goliaths, 12 marines, and 6 Firebats, not 3. I messed up their.

“Lieutenant Scott followed his troops into the convoluted passageways, and it wasn’t long before they
encountered a firefight of their own. Inside the topmost tunnel three powerful Protoss Zealots loomed out at them, eyes blazing, mouthless faces giving them a demonic appearance.

“Look out!” Scott shouted.

The Zealots raised their strangely gloved hands and activated deadly Psionic Blades. The Marines were already opening fire. Their Gauss rifles sent out blasts that drove the Protoss back, even as the Zealots slashed with their crackling scythes.

Lieutenant Scott hadn’t had time to know all the men assigned to him for this mission, so he didn’t immediately recall the names of the three Marines who fell screaming. While the fallen soldiers’ Impalers still sputtered energy bursts into the translucent wall, the lieutenant motioned one of his Goliaths forward.

The Goliath advanced, his armor fully powered, his twin thirty-millimeter autocannons blazing. The weapon blasted without pause until the nearest Zealot toppled backward, dead.

Six Firebats converged on the other two enemy fanatics. Flames erupted from their Perdition weapons. In a last struggle, one Protoss Zealot killed a Firebat with his Psionic Blade, but then the flamethrowers crisped the surviving two aliens. They all fell dead next to the three Marines they had slaughtered.”

We don’t know if the Goliaths were firing on the last two, all of the marines were firing. Also, Firebat flamethrowers can vaporize Zerglings and Hydralisks as seen in SC2. All I have seen from Pulse Rifles is alot of blood and being knocked back.

Here are Gauss Rifle feats:
“Blood squirted onto the floor from the ragged crater in the man’s throat and Arcturus gagged at the horrid burned-metallic smell of the man’s death. Another man’s body lay farther along the corridor, this one with his chest torn apart by Impaler spikes. It looked like he’d been sawn in two.”

“Withering sprays of Impaler spikes ripped through the mercenaries, their lighter body armor no match for close-range gauss fire. Arcturus worked his rifle over the men below him, bloody eruptions fountaining where the spikes blew open skulls or tore limbs from bodies.”

“Realizing that to fight on was hopeless, one man threw down his rifle and held up his hands in surrender.

Arcturus cut him in two with a sustained burst of fire. ”

“The first marine dropped, Master Miyamoto’s expertly aimed fire punching unerringly through his visor and filling the inside of his helmet with iron spikes.”

“Arcturus stuck his rifle around the rock and pulled the trigger, not really aiming, but just wanting to return fire. The armor easily absorbed the recoil, and through his shots went well wide, he felt better for shooting back.”

This is before the Terrans switched to Depleted Uranium rounds.

“- So your basically citing that the Protoss has a galactic empire with sufficent resources to fight the Tau…. and then say you really have no Freakin’ idea. Brilliant.”

You wanted to debate Starcraft, a series that has only one game and an expansion out………. Starcraft 2 was meant to clear alot of stuff up, and I have not been able to read a book about the protoss yet. We know they have hundreds of worlds and they had a Civil War of unquantifiable size. Because of said war, the Zerg had an easy time with invading. If they did not have a civil war, the Zerg would have been mince meat.

“- I’m having a hard time finding a source on the Goliathes weapon systems beyond “30mm smoothbore autocannons,” where did you find firing rates at?”

Its from I’Mengsk.

“Arcturus pushed Mercurio’s body away and rolled to his knees as another hail of explosive 30mm shells reduced what little cover there was to mangled splinters of plascrete and metal shavings.”

“The two armored walkers braced themselves and their arms spun up and around. The already rotating barrels suddenly roared and meter-long tongues of flame blasted from the ends of their weapons. Flickering sparks and torn metal exploded from the building’s flanks, thousands of rounds carving the sheet metal like a whipping plasma torch. Entire strips of metal fell from the hangar, closely followed by torn up bodies.

For good measure, a salvo of missiles rippled from the shoulder mounts of the two goliaths, streaking inside the holes their guns had torn. One after another they exploded inside the building, and the roof boomed upward with each detonation.”

“This may be too vague for your tastes but it is proof of marine power armour resisting insane amounts of firepower and yet they are still frequently brought down by pulse rifle power. So we have no numbers for Tau fire power but I think its safe to say that the protoss ground forces are severly outgunned and that a zealot’s shield will offer little protection”

I can just simply say that marine armor can take one shot from a bolter round and be done with it given that quote. Give serious info, or all your claims are silly and nonsensical. Don’t force me to go find some information for you.

” Fourteen Marienes, six Firebats, two Goliaths, thats what I meant.”

- You forgot to mention that one Goliath never engaged as it it never described it being used. Hell, the one that actually engaged had to be motioned to so that it would engage.

” This is before the Terrans switched to Depleted Uranium rounds.”
- …. They gave a date on which Terran marines, the sector over, switched to DU rounds? I have to ask, when did they?

- As for the autocannons – All I’ve seen are the single barrel versions in artist renditions and the ones depicted in the movies… none of which have the firing rates described. Hurrah for canon contradicting other canon.

Oh, wait, you meant this Goliath? http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/File:Goliath_SC1_Cine_1.jpg

Thats UED, entirely different faction.

Uh, those cannons do rotate.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/File:Goliath_SC-G_Game1.jpg

See the area behind the cannon that allows for rotation. What scene are you talking about of reduced firing rate?

“Ummmm…. all I see is an armored ammo box, a blast shield, a single cylinder with cooling holes, and one large opening with a flash guard. There is nothing in that picture that implies internal rotation.”

The Cylinder with cooling holes and the end of the cannon is what rotates.

” What source do you have that says they don’t rotate?”

- Nothing to imply that they do and what purpose is a single barrel rotating?

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Goliath

Go down to the SC2 section It states

“For all intents and purposes, goliaths have been replaced by the Viking”

“However, Raynor’s Raiders are still able to gain access to them in the game’s terran campaign, Wings of Liberty. Seeing them in use by other factions is also a possibility.”

@ Mega

Ummmmm….. we’re debating firing rates (as to ascertain Protoss Shielding)…. not their use man.

Both of those are non-canon.

If you actually read the quote right it says bolt rounds suggesting more than one shot. Sure we dont know the exact amount of las fire, bolt rounds or cannon shots the armour can take but neither do we know how much gauss fire, autocannon rounds or siege tank shots it takes to down zealots. So if you have proof that power armour cannot survive at least one autocannon shot then post it instead of just trying to claim evidence is void because it does not meet YOUR requirments. If anyone else agrees however that the quote provided does not prove that power armour can survive at least one autocannon shell then I will try and find better evidence

You forgot to metion that Forrix was a terminator which are usually armed with a combi bolter which is two bolters strapped together which supports Gaunt’s statement of marine armour survivng bolt rounds. Also they are typically armed wiht a power fist so unless he decided to drop his gun when he entered melee combat I dont see how that disproves Gaunt’s statement.

I was wondering, could the admin clear up where the regions are at? Are the Protoss and Tau in their own galaxies? Are they put at opposite ends of an empty galaxy with resources? Are their territories stuck right near each other? This must be known before we start discussing the bigger stuff.

“I think that each races territories are placed in a neutral galaxy close to one another. Has there been any new info regarding the amount of planets the protoss have?”

You know, your going to have to wait til summer before new info comes. Man, I’m dying for SC2.

I was using the bolter as a feat, not the Power Fist.

Thats pretty much what Im going to do. I am going to have to say offline to avoid spoilers of course.