Suggested by AHEM
I know these two characters aren’t as well known yet, but once the Wheel of time series gets turned into a movie, and Legend of the Seeker moves into further seasons, I think these two characters will have more exposure.
While Lanfear does possess great power to inflict some serious damage, you know I am gonna pick Nicci – and not just because she’s from the SoT series either. Nicci possesses both sides of the magic and is almost as powerful as Richard Rahl. That’s enough for me.
Who do you think would win?
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December 24, 2009
#1
100 comments . . . I would never have expected this suggestion of mine, involving two relatively obscure characters, to get this much attention.
December 24, 2009
#2
“It is not uncommon, however, for a target who is already touching their magic to be able to fight against and sometimes resist it.”
That’s only possible, however, if the person being shielded is more powerful than the person sheilding, like how Rand alThor managed to beat down Verrin and Alanna’s shield shortly after being bonded. I am pretty sure Lanfear is more powerful than Nicci, she is tied for second in a world where magic is 4x more common than SoT while Nicci is definetely behind several in SoT, and Lanfear has the True Source from the Dark One, and who knows what she can do with that…
December 24, 2009
#3
“That’s only possible, however, if the person being shielded is more powerful than the person sheilding, like how Rand alThor managed to beat down Verrin and Alanna’s shield shortly after being bonded. I am pretty sure Lanfear is more powerful than Nicci, she is tied for second in a world where magic is 4x more common than SoT while Nicci is definetely behind several in SoT, and Lanfear has the True Source from the Dark One, and who knows what she can do with that…”
While the general idea of that is accurate, it isn’t nearly as concrete as you imply. You’re confusing “resisting being shielded” with “breaking out of being shielded.” Like I said before, the act of shielding is like trying to wrestle someone down and handcuff them. If you’re stronger than they, you will have the advantage and will most likely succeed, but that will not stop them from trying to resist. If a person succeeds in wrestling down another channeler, than that channeler will become shielded, and will not be able to channel unless they break through.
Now, it is only possible to BREAK THROUGH a shield that has already been placed and finished if you’re stronger than the person who has shielded you, except in the case where they tie it off, wherein it can be broken by anyone with enough time and patience to dissolve the weaves. There’s nothing stopping a slightly weaker channeler from trying to resist shielding before they are completely cut off from the Power, however. The reason most don’t is because it is pretty much impossible if you aren’t already touching the True Source or are caught by suprise.
Lanfear, after all, resisted Rand’s attempts to shield her, despite that he is a little stronger in the Power than she is. If it wasn’t possible to resist a shielding attempt from someone stronger in the Power than you, then Rand would have no trouble with the Forsaken.
I too think that Lanfear is of a higher power level than Nicci, though I don’t necessarily think their “rankings” in their own universes are necessarily proof that one is better than the other, since the power scales in SoT and WoT are not equivalent to each other. There are some universes, after all, that are so powerful that a mid-tier character from there could beat a top-tier character from another universe.(Like DBZ or Marvel vs. Harry Potter.) I’m not saying that’s the case with SoT and WoT(in fact, WoT is usually stronger), I’m just pointing that out.
December 25, 2009
#4
“Shielding, however, cuts off all magic, and something Nicci really cannot duplicate or defend against. Its also incredibldy easy to do in the WoT Universe, many times the victims do not realize what has happened until it is too late…”
There was an incident in one of the later books where a magic user in SoT created a magical construct that could cut someone off from using their magic, much like shielding(and it worked). It wasn’t Nicci who did it, but since she’s one of the most powerful SoT sorceresses, her using it wouldn’t be that farfetched.
SoT universe also has Rada’Han, which lock away the magic of whoever it is locked onto. Nicci often carried one of those(being a former Sister of the Light) and in one occasion I can recall, she put a Rada’Han on a target by stealth, preventing them from using their magic, and took them prisoner. Since Nicci can move objects without touching them, she could probably throw a Rada’Han around Lanfear’s neck from a distance, which would kind of mess things up for Lanfear as her magic would be cut off. Unlike shielding, it is impossible to resist a Rada’Han once it’s put around your neck, and even the most powerful wizards have only managed to break free of it after a long period of time.
December 26, 2009
#5
Lanfear would take Nicci apart but Shota might give Lanfear a run for her money.
December 26, 2009
#6
“There was an incident in one of the later books where a magic user in SoT created a magical construct that could cut someone off from using their magic, much like shielding(and it worked). It wasn’t Nicci who did it, but since she’s one of the most powerful SoT sorceresses, her using it wouldn’t be that farfetched.”
Well…powerful does not mean knowledgeable. In Faith of the Fallen, she needed to get help from a Sister of the Light to cast the maternity spell on Kahlan. She is only 180 odd years old, so she is not a master of the harder spells. Still being on Faith of the Fallen, I’m not aware if this spell if common or not, but if it is obscure, Nicci probably does not know how to do it…
“SoT universe also has Rada’Han, which lock away the magic of whoever it is locked onto. Nicci often carried one of those(being a former Sister of the Light) and in one occasion I can recall, she put a Rada’Han on a target by stealth, preventing them from using their magic, and took them prisoner. Since Nicci can move objects without touching them, she could probably throw a Rada’Han around Lanfear’s neck from a distance, which would kind of mess things up for Lanfear as her magic would be cut off. Unlike shielding, it is impossible to resist a Rada’Han once it’s put around your neck, and even the most powerful wizards have only managed to break free of it after a long period of time.”
Earlier in this thread you claimed Nicci could sense Lanfear by her magic. That can work both ways. Any woman who can channel in WoT can sense any other woman who can channel at a minimum of around 100 yards, more so for someone like Lanfear. Stealth will not work for Nicci. As for throwing it on her neck at a distance, that would take some skill in aim, and I do not take Nicci as the type for horseshoes. Even then, Lanfear could blast it out of the air pretty easily….
December 26, 2009
#7
“Well…powerful does not mean knowledgeable. In Faith of the Fallen, she needed to get help from a Sister of the Light to cast the maternity spell on Kahlan. She is only 180 odd years old, so she is not a master of the harder spells. Still being on Faith of the Fallen, I’m not aware if this spell if common or not, but if it is obscure, Nicci probably does not know how to do it…”
Are you aware that “only 180 years old” is 2-3 times the age of Zeddicus Zu’l Zorander, the undisputed master of Additive Magic in the Midlands? In the later books, both Zedd and the +900 year old Ann and Nathan are left in awe at what Nicci can do. Several Sisters of the Light, including Alessandra and Annalina Aldurran, mention that Nicci was exceptionally talented for a Sister.
Don’t underestimate Nicci’s ability. This is someone who’s spent their entire(and unnaturally long) life learning everything she could about magic, while dappling in secrets and forbidden magic that most sorceresses don’t even know about, and taking on and experimenting with the powers of a wizard.
Nicci is a little more than 180, BTW. She stated she was 181 in Faith of the Fallen, and in the later books she’s a few years older.
It was never mentioned whether the spell was common or obscure, though it seemed quite complex, and it was never seen anywhere else in the series. However, it is not a practical spell to use in a direct combat scenario, as it required quite a bit of time to set up before execution. If it’s any help, this spell was created using magical artistry, like the spell in “Wizard’s First Rule” that was “drawn” on Richard in Tamarang to capture him. So, Nicci most likely would not use this sort of magic.
“As for throwing it on her neck at a distance, that would take some skill in aim, and I do not take Nicci as the type for horseshoes. Even then, Lanfear could blast it out of the air pretty easily….”
Maybe if she were to wind up her arm and throw it manually. When you’re throwing it with magic, and can guide it every step of the way, accuracy isn’t really a problem.
December 27, 2009
#8
Alright, AHEM, Nicci is in her 180s, and has studied magic every step of the way. But Lanfear is at least a hundred years older, not counting the 3000 years she spent asleep. Nicci could probably crush Zedd, Ann and Nathan, but this debate is not featuring them. Lanfear is the most powerful magical woman, ever, at least in WoT.
She would probably try to put the Rada’Han around Lanfear’s neck with magic, but that would be tough if Lanfear would just blast it out of the air.
Hmmmm…some of the more mundane attacks, such as Air and Fire are very similiar in both WoT. But Lanfear’s got several nasty tricks such as balefire that Nicci could not see coming. I wonder if there is anything Nicci could do that Lanfear could not duplicate, could not block, and had never heard of before. That might be the only way she can reach a killing blow. If not, the Wheel of Time trump card, balefire, will probably end this pretty quickly, once Lanfear realizes what Nicci can do…
December 27, 2009
#9
“Alright, AHEM, Nicci is in her 180s, and has studied magic every step of the way. But Lanfear is at least a hundred years older, not counting the 3000 years she spent asleep. Nicci could probably crush Zedd, Ann and Nathan, but this debate is not featuring them. Lanfear is the most powerful magical woman, ever, at least in WoT.”
Never disputed that. I didn’t say Nicci had the advantage over Lanfear in this category. I just thought it was unfairly dismissive to say she was “only” ~180 years old and thus not yet at an advanced level of mastery.
“Hmmmm…some of the more mundane attacks, such as Air and Fire are very similiar in both WoT. But Lanfear’s got several nasty tricks such as balefire that Nicci could not see coming. I wonder if there is anything Nicci could do that Lanfear could not duplicate, could not block, and had never heard of before. That might be the only way she can reach a killing blow. If not, the Wheel of Time trump card, balefire, will probably end this pretty quickly, once Lanfear realizes what Nicci can do…”
I seem to remember a few particularly impressive feats in the Chainfire Trilogy, though I’m not sure at the moment where they are.(Big books, after all.) I’ll see if I can find some that Lanfear will have a hard time dealing with.
December 27, 2009
#10
“Never disputed that. I didn’t say Nicci had the advantage over Lanfear in this category. I just thought it was unfairly dismissive to say she was “only” ~180 years old and thus not yet at an advanced level of mastery.”
When I said that, I meant she was relatively young for a Sister of Light. Prelate Anna is almost a thousand years old, and I’m sure there have been older. It takes time for anybody to learn anything in the Palace of the Prophets, so I was merely suggesting that she may not know as many advanced spells as Sisters of Light or Dark that are 600 or 700 years old.
“I’ll see if I can find some that Lanfear will have a hard time dealing with.”
Thanks.
December 27, 2009
#11
“When I said that, I meant she was relatively young for a Sister of Light. Prelate Anna is almost a thousand years old, and I’m sure there have been older. It takes time for anybody to learn anything in the Palace of the Prophets, so I was merely suggesting that she may not know as many advanced spells as Sisters of Light or Dark that are 600 or 700 years old.”
Maybe not quite as many as one of the ancients, though 180 is hardly young. She was a full Sister, after all.
Though Richard’s training would imply it, I don’t think that the learning of those within the Palace of the Prophets is nearly as slow-paced as you might think. The whole reason why the young wizards within the palace take so long is because they’re wizards being trained by sorceresses, not exactly the fastest method.(Wizards are supposed to be trained by wizards and sorceresses by sorceresses.) Though Sisters of the Light do train for very long periods of time, that’s mostly due to the thoroughness of their education, which includes things like prophecy and languages that don’t necessary pertain to magic. Nicci is quite obviously multilingual, since she can read and translate High D’Haran, so she probably put her training in the PotP to good use beyond just learnign magic.
December 27, 2009
#12
“I’ll see if I can find some that Lanfear will have a hard time dealing with.”
I’ve got one right here.
“In an instant, that terrible, intolerable void, that vacuum of power that Nicci had created in both worlds, was filled with the deafening release of a bolt of lightning that came crashing in through the window, while its twin, from the world beyond the world of life, ripped through the veil, drawn to the need unfulfilled–compelled to complete what Nicci had begun. This time, there was no safety in escape to another world; both worlds had together unleashed their fury.
“Scattered glass rained through the room. The thunderous boom shook the stone walls of the Keep. It seemed as if the sun itself were exploding in through the window. . .
“The explosion of that lightning was beyond anything that she had ever seen before. Creating the precursor in both worlds lent the lightning the power of both worlds, Additive and Subtractive, creative and destructive, intertwined in a single calamitous discharge . . .
“In the violent corona of crackling white light, the beast came apart, driven to dust and vapor by the intensity of the heat and power focused in the void Nicci had created.
“Gales of rain and wind roared in through the shattered windows. Outside, yet more lightning flickered through the roiling greenish clouds. When the lightning outside lit the room, they could all see that the beast was gone.”
This is from one of the later books. I can provide the book and page number if anyone wants to double check.
Basically, Nicci is fighting an underworld creature who just stood up to repeated direct attacks from Zedd, Nathan, Ann, Cara, and Richard himself all at once and was still fine. What Nicci did was pretty much create a link between the world of life and the underworld, build up a huge amount of force and a vacuum to draw it in, and then unleashed all the enormous power drawn from both worlds, both Additive and Subtractive, into a single explosive concussion, and blew the thing away in one go. That’s power for you, my friends. I’d like to see how Lanfear is going to survive getting caught between the jaws of THAT kind of spell.
December 28, 2009
#13
“I’d like to see how Lanfear is going to survive getting caught between the jaws of THAT kind of spell.”
Something tells me that would shatter her shield…But how long did it take her to cast this spell? This could probably end Lanfear, but only if Lanfear does not end Nicci before she can cast it…
December 28, 2009
#14
“Something tells me that would shatter her shield…But how long did it take her to cast this spell? This could probably end Lanfear, but only if Lanfear does not end Nicci before she can cast it…”
I found that part in the book when John mentioned it. It appeared that Nicci spent a considerable time charging up and creating the vacuum before unleashing it. Not really long, like minutes, but enough time to be somewhat impractical in a battle with an opponent that can sling out weaves at the speed of thought.
Lanfear’s standard air weaves would be highly unlikely to actually block a mixed Additive/Subtractive attack of this magnitude; she’d need one of the more heavy duty shields used by channelers, such as the one Rand used in “The Path of Daggers.” Her best solution would simply be to open a gateway to take her to a different location before the blast hit.
December 30, 2009
#15
Maybe they wouldn’t fight at all, but will instead perform a fusion dance to become the all-powerful Niccifear and own the characters of both worlds. : ) I know those kind of things don’t really exist in either universe, but maybe they could find a constructed magic from before the Great War or a teer-angreel(probably spelt that wrong . . .) that could do that sort of thing?
December 30, 2009
#16
Actually, more than you might think. WoT can link similiary to how the Sisters of the Dark did in Blood of the Fold, except with zero risk. Then, Nicci and Lanfear’s awesome powers would be combined, and they would rule both worlds!!!
Or Lanfear could just bond Nicci. Now wouldn’t that be interesting…
December 31, 2009
#17
“Maybe they wouldn’t fight at all, but will instead perform a fusion dance to become the all-powerful Niccifear and own the characters of both worlds. : )”
What? Lol.
Only problem with that theory is that these two are completely antithetical to each other in just about every way. Polar opposites.
Nicci is blond; Lanfear is dark-haired. Nicci has blue eyes; Lanfear has dark eyes. Nicci always wears a black dress; Lanfear always wears a white dress. Nicci is stoic and unfettered; Lanfear has definite anger management issues. Nicci only cares about furthering her causes and goals; Lanfear only cares about furthering herself. Nicci has been drowning in guilt and self-loathing her entire life; Lanfear is a total egomaniac. One of Nicci’s principal flaws could be considered her masochistic selflessness; Lanfear is selfish to an extreme level. Nicci is unruffled and completely unjealous; Lanfear could hardly be more possessive or jealous. Nicci has very little, if any, personal ambition; Lanfear is driven by unsatiable power-lust and ambition. The woman wants to take over the entire Wheel of Time universe, for crying out loud.
This two would not get along very well in real life, I think. Niccifear would either have an amalgrammed personality that rests in between extremes, or she wouldn’t be able to take two steps in any direction without her split-personalities arguing. Nicci isn’t into the idea of universal domination quite so much as Lanfear is.
January 1, 2010
#18
Back to the debate, I think I’ll count up the advantages:
Nicci:
Bond immunities
Indomitable will; will likely resist Compulsion
MultiHan might confuse Lanfear/make direct stilling less effective
Might be too valuable to destroy
Usually carries a dacra and Rada’han, both of which are quite potent
Extremely high pain tolerance
More composed in combat situations
Lanfear:
Balefire
More varied powers(Compulsion, Dreamwalking, etc)
Can turn invisible and teleport, both of which Nicci cannot do
Better at countering and cutting off others’ magic
Can maintain multiple weaves at once
Her magic is faster
More age and experience
Saidar is generally stronger than SoT magic,
Can increase her power with an angreal
Shock factor of being a dreamwalker/confessor/sorceress/etc.
January 1, 2010
#19
I’ve been and remain a big fan of the SoT, and Nicci in particular is one of my favorite characters, but I can see where this debate’s been going all along. I know when to fold them and accept that my preferred character might not win. Though I’ve done my best to bring up all the scenarios in which Nicci might win, it’s clear enough to me after reading these many excellent posts that Lanfear has much more diverse powers and pretty much has a counter to anything a SoT Gifted could do. I’ve seen enough to be convinced that Lanfear would win probably 7/10 battles with Nicci. Factpile Award goes to Lanfear.
Still, I’ve enjoyed this thread and thank everyone who participated for the epic debate. I remember when threads with fantasy characters would be lucky to get more than a few comments, but now we have this at nearly 120 and Darken Rahl vs. Voldemort at +160. The addition and contribution of Factpilers like AHEM and Mazrim have really improved this website, I think.
January 3, 2010
#20
“I’ve seen enough to be convinced that Lanfear would win probably 7/10 battles with Nicci. Factpile Award goes to Lanfear.”
/nods
Factpile Award nomination for Lanfear.
January 3, 2010
#21
@John Anen
Thanks for the compliment, and your defense of Nicci was excellent. I am amazed at the arguments you managed to pull up for her.
And thanks for the great points and book quotations in favor of Lanfear AHEM.
I second the Factpile Award Nomination for Lanfear.
January 4, 2010
#22
“Thanks for the compliment, and your defense of Nicci was excellent. I am amazed at the arguments you managed to pull up for her.”
Hehehe, whenever there’s a SoT character, you can count on that from me. Hopefully we’ll see some more matches involving these characters in the future.
“I second the Factpile Award Nomination for Lanfear.”
Thirded.
February 24, 2010
#23
Lanfear is simply to powerful for nicci to handle. While she (nicci) has both + – magic, you cant begin to compare her to the daughter of night. Lanfear would either tear her up for fun or use compultion on her to use a servant. an intrusing comparion both are or were in love with the main character of their books.
i fourth the factpile nomination for Lanfear.
July 15, 2010
#24
I think Nicci would win because Lanfear can only sense and cut off people from the true source however nicci uses magic not the true source and is incredibly destructive with the ability to create shields with her magic. She also has resisted the dream walker Jagang so it is highly unlikely Lanfear could use compulsion on her. Lanfear does have balefire but nicci has leggs and her spells are in general more destructive and probably more effective in a combat situation than Lanfears. Also Lanfear tends to rather just cut them off from the true source, which she cant do to Nicci, and dispose of them simply. I am sure Nicci would win. Lanfear has no power over her.