Sure.

I’ll preface this with: I’m an obvious Link fanboy. I will not deny this. Feel free to call me this, I will not be offended. That said, these claims are as devoid of bias as I can possibly make them. That said, I’m also a horrific Warhammer fanboy (Tyranids, mostly, but I love Chaos, too.)

Firstly: I read that unless specified otherwise, these posts use all of the showings of a character, rather than just the most recent. This was in another post which may have been old, but it was confirmed by Admin.

If this is allowed, Link has many, many, many advantages. If not, then there are only a few Link’s that I can see Kharn defeating. Anyway:

A composite Link would have;
The Master sword; which alone is pretty harsh on Kharn. He’s sort of, y’know, evil. This sword repels and smites evil. Pretty kool.
The Four sword; which quadruples the number of Link’s in play!
The Phantom Sword; which /stops time/ (Temporarily, but still neato!)

On top of these, which he admittedly could not wield simultaneously, he has several handy utility items that could be seen as cheap, or even I win buttons.

1. The magic cape. This makes Link invisible /and/ intangible. Kharne cannot hurt Link like this, or see him. Link is very strong, and wielding a magic sword designed to smite people just like him.
2. The Golden gauntlets. Stay with me on this one. It’s gonna get a bit wierd, and uber nerdy, but I’ve done math on these.

In OoT Link threw a series of massive granite pillars while wearing these, and… Well.. Going by some basic math, measuring the pillars by comparing them to Link’s height, ect, I’ve come out with a weight around a thousand tons. Now, lemme low ball that for the sake of being conservative. Let’s just call it 500. (still a huge amount of weight.) Link threw these at pretty high speed. One was in the air for about a second, and crashed over a hundred meters away.

In terms of physics, the energy output is amazing, and I could easily see Link breaching Kharn’s armour.

The Fire and Ice arrows: These respectively have been shown to freeze a volcano, and end a hurricane. The arrows in Zelda in general are pretty stupid. One goes through a tornado to hit a wind god, and another is fired /to the sun/. The velocity required to do either one is pretty insane, but to break the earth’s gravitational pull, a minimum velocity of mach 22 is required. I think even Link’s arrows could damage Kharne, to be honest. Or atleast knock him over in his armour. The magic arrows are where the danger is, though.

Also, Link has super-sonic reflexes, and could stop Kharn from SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!-ing him. This sounds asinine of me, but lemme lay it out.

Majora’s whips. A six foot whip makes a sonci boom when it’’s cracks. Majora had forty foot prehensile super whips, which Link, as a child, sleep deprived, without his piece of the triforce, evaded in order to defeat Majora. An adult Link in fighting condition will be able to react to all of Kharne’s moves. Kharn is inhumanly strong, but not moreso than Link.
Chateau Romani: infinite magic for three days.
Quake Medallion: turns enemies into goo.
Spell: (yes,that’s what it’s called. From Zelda II, NES!) Turns enemies into goo.

Now, let’s assume it’s not a composite Link.
OoT/MM Link has the master sword, golden gauntlets, Fire/Ice arrows, Chataeu Romani and Nayru’s love..
aLttP Link has the Titans mits, master sword, red mail, Cane of Byrna, Bombos/Ether/Quake medallions, and /magic cape/.
WW /PH Link has the master sword, power-bracelets, magic armour, and fire/ice arrows, then later the phantom sword.
Zelda/Zelda II Link has The red ring, master or ‘magic’ sword, shield spell, spell spell.
Four Sword Link has the four sword, resultign in three more of himself.

All of these Links have the silver/light arrows, which smite evil + 5 or something, and the light arrows have been seen disintegrating stuff.

Now, onto golden gauntlet fuelled math:

the block weighed about 1000 tons, let’s call it 500.

K = 1/2mv^2
m = 453592.36999975 Kg
v = 100 meters per second.

K = 2267961849.9987 joules.

That’s… a Pretty big number.

A little reposting and discussion can’t hurt, now can it?

” The Master sword; which alone is pretty harsh on Kharn. He’s sort of, y’know, evil. This sword repels and smites evil. Pretty kool.”

- Kharn’s not really evil, he just represents bloodlust and battle. And then there’s the need for the Master Sword to penetrate armor that took the main shell of a Baneblade….. and stopped it.

” 1. The magic cape. This makes Link invisible /and/ intangible. Kharne cannot hurt Link like this, or see him. Link is very strong, and wielding a magic sword designed to smite people just like him.”

- Too bad the shadow is still visible…… and needs magic to run…. which means it’ll run out.

” The velocity required to do either one is pretty insane, but to break the earth’s gravitational pull, a minimum velocity of mach 22 is required.”

- I’m curious….. how is firing at the Sun to recieve fire arrows mean that the arrow actually broke out of the atmosphere when in most of the games the pull of the Earth causes the arrow to dip down only after a couple decameters? And how do magic arrows react to someone immune to magic?

” An adult Link in fighting condition will be able to react to all of Kharne’s moves.”

- Since the only example you gave was of whips that cause sonic booms (which they all do is some form) and I’ve never seen Link move or react anywhere near the levels of a Space Marine…… I pretty much have to say your wrong.

” Quake Medallion: turns enemies into goo.
Spell: (yes,that’s what it’s called. From Zelda II, NES!) Turns enemies into goo.”
- Kharn: Immune to Magic

” All of these Links have the silver/light arrows, which smite evil + 5 or something, and the light arrows have been seen disintegrating stuff.”

- “Evil” being a hard term to apply to Kharn as he represents Chaos, which is neither good nor evil. And besides, Kharn has been shown to dodge bullets…. single shot arrows ain’t shit.

” That’s… a Pretty big number.”

- Only really applies if Link can hit him….. before Gorechild has another soul to eat. So…….. yeah, Link loses.

daemon armour is augmented power armour, infering extra protection. it still has all the properties of power armour, which are added to by the daemonic aspect. this means that whilst links sword could theoretically damage it, the armour would still need to be something links steel sword could penetrate, which it isnt.

Hey, I’m getting replies Thanks guys.

Point one:
“daemon armour is augmented power armour, infering extra protection. it still has all the properties of power armour, which are added to by the daemonic aspect. this means that whilst links sword could theoretically damage it, the armour would still need to be something links steel sword could penetrate, which it isnt.”

Being an avid Warhammer fan, I’m well aware of the capabilities and limitations of power armour. Here’s the thing: With Link’s strength feats and a magical sword designed specificly to fight people like Kharn, he *can* get through the power armour. Kharn’s armour’s got some very impressive feats, yes, but it has never stood up to a strike from someone who can throw a thousand ton pillar at around 100 m/s. A space marine’s strength is around sufficient to lift a hundred tons over his head in power armour. Kharn, obviously stronger and more durable, is probably sittign around 200 tons. If Kharn were to fight another one of himself, one of them would die.
To boot, the master sword would very, very likely count as a power weapon against Kharn, and Link is much, much stronger. (Physicly.)

I would disagree that the strength advantage goes to Kharn, would say that they both have great reflexes, and speed. If we let Link have the pegasus boot,s he can actively out run arrows, and in TP he’s seen cuttign them out of the air (in gameplay, but still good.) MM has him reacting to super-sonic attacks.

As for the whip feat, I have more back up for that. Majora’s whips came in a pair, and attacked in a flurry. If Link were to simply react to their aim, which would be very difficult, Majora could just crack the whip slightly differently to hit Link where he moved to. The upper limit that the tip of the whip could reach is easily in the area of hypersonic. (mach 5+) but definitely super-sonic. Let’s keep it low-balled.

*packs fanboyism away in a box.*

So, super-sonic.

Because of Link’s insane strength, and the fact this his weapon would count as a power weapon, I see Kharn’s power armour as no issue. His field also isn’t too big of an issue. I’d be willing to bet that The master sword could go through this too, sort of like a Necron Warscythe, due to it’s evil-smitey-ness. Even if not, Kharn’s invuln isn’t impossible to get through.

Now: Kharn’s immunity to magic:
“Blessing of the Blood God: Kharn is immune to the effects of psychic powers, and force weapons count as normal weapons against him.”

Yes, I do have the chaos marine codex with me. :p Love me some chaos.

The sword is not a psychic power, or a force weapon. Additionally, this immunity to magic is being talked about sort of like a no-limit fallacy. It’s very strong protection, sure, and whether it even applies to magic is up for debate. That said, it’s also personal. He has no aura, he does not confer this benefit onto units he joins, and thus, it could not turn off Link’s magic cape, or Nayru’s love, or Magic armour. This makes Link invunerable to Kharn’s physical strikes.

So, to sum up my argument, Link is far stronger, has weapons which will go through Kharn’s power armour, and can make himself invunerable to physical strikes from Kharn.

I do not think Kharn is immune to time-stops, either.

From the same codex is a power called warp time, which allows a chaos sorcerer to re-roll missed hits. In fluff terms, this is because he’s warped time, and has an advantage in combat. This spell is personal, and it works against Kharn. This is from the same codex, and it sa psychic power, even. Thus, because the Phantom Sword’s spell is personal, time is frozen, but Link is the target who is still able to act, Kharn would be frozen as well. Additionally, with the ocarina of time, Link can actively alter the flow of time. If Link slows time, it’s not a power that’d effect Kharn, he literally slows all time for everyone everywhere except for himself. Kharn would not be immune to this either.

Additionally, his immunity to force weapons does not protect him from Deamon weapons! Also from the same codex is a weapon called “Bliss-giver”, the Deamon weapon used by Chaos worshippers of Slaanesh. Kharne is not immune to this weapon, which causes instant death via eternal orgasm. (Well, a pleasure coma, or something..)

Imho, Kharn has met his match here.

Ok, avid Kharn Fanboi here, but guys, can we please get over this “Kharn is immune to magical weapons” fix we have? He’s not. Magical/psychic blasts, sure. But thats because Khorne see’s them as cowardly and as such force the users of such things to fight on his terms. Magical weapons however (Fire/ice arrows, Master sword) would not be nullified, because those are weapons, and as such fit into Khornes code of honour.

That said, Warptime at least is affected by his spell immunity if cast within (however many inches), as he has an anti-magic area of sorts

Now…. TO MATH!

I first determined that the object in question was a hexagonial solid due to what I’ve seen from youtube and therefore can use this equation – Volume = 2.598 a^2 * h

Following, I shall estimate Link’s Heigth as an optimistic 5 ft and then compared it to one edge of the base to find it around 10 ft

The height (h) once again using Link as a reference seems to be around…. 40 ft. That being said that means the object (according to my guesstimations) volume is shown by – 2.598 X 10 ft^2 X 40 ft. Which equals 10392 cubic feet. Then using a neat conversion website (http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/weight2volume) and guessing that the object is black granite… it comes out around 890 to 900 tonnes.

Another thing I find unusual is that this strength seems to only apply when he is actually lifting something…. never when fighting. For instance, any enemy that was faced afterwards should have been instantly destoryed when hit by that much force…. and yet…. they’re not. You could play this off as gameplay mechanics, but that doesn’t mean that this ability is activated all the time for Link. Indeed…. if you could lift around 900 tonnes… why would Link need to wield the Giant’s Knife with two hands if it should be as light as a feather to Link?

More later……

” and a magical sword designed specificly to fight people like Kharn”
-

” As for the Biggoron sword being used in two hands, gameplay mechanics imho. It was sort of an easter-egg sword for additional damage at the cost of a shield. Making Link stronger and taking away it’s balacing factor sort of ruins it’s concept.”

- I was refering to the Giant’s sword actually…. the one that the big Goron gives you in a cave…. not the Biggoron Sword which is earned after doing some such retarded quest.

The fact remains that the gauntlets have only been shown to be in effect when Link has been lifting something or pushing something of a considerable weight and having a weird symbol carved in it. The same effect is never shown in combat or any other facet of the game. In other words, I could easily say that the effect is only in place when moving objects with the weird symbol carved in it…. and no where else.

” Making Link stronger and taking away it’s balacing factor sort of ruins it’s concept.”

- It still throws doubt upon Link’s enhanced strength as most game mechanics issues simply deal with damage properties…. not saying that a character is limited to one weapon when he could easily use something else in another hand if he chose to and was (by your admission) quite strong.

Indeed, the strength shown with the gauntlets is actually a magic property and could be therefore restricted to a set amount of limits such as the object being lifted, as with the csarving on the side. An unsupported theory of course, but since you have no proof (shown) that the gauntlets work outside of certain facets of the game, still valid.

” would say that they both have great reflexes”
- Indeed, but I would have to throw my lot to Kharn’s being the better here as he has faced a similar scenario to the one in the whips are described (you forgot to mention that Link doesn’t truely dodge these attacks as most can be simply blocked and the rest prevented as there is no blocking) and arrows are not rocket propelled muntions. For instance, the RPG-7 (closest thing to a boltgun) is around three times as fast as modern compound bows. So yeah, no real basis for Link having greater reflexes, but quite a bit for Kharn.

More later.

” it could not turn off Link’s magic cape, or Nayru’s love, or Magic armour. This makes Link invunerable to Kharn’s physical strikes. ”
- All of which is based on Link’s finite magic and

“- I was refering to the Giant’s sword actually”
This is just the biggoron sword, that breaks after a couple swings.

“The fact remains that the gauntlets have only been shown to be in effect when Link has been lifting something or pushing something of a considerable weight and having a weird symbol carved in it. The same effect is never shown in combat or any other facet of the game. In other words, I could easily say that the effect is only in place when moving objects with the weird symbol carved in it…. and no where else.”

The descriptions of the gauntlets /all/ say that they give him strength, not they they allow him to lift. Furthermore, in the cutscnee where Link lifts the pillar and throws it, he grunts a bit, showing that he’s exerting effort and it is infact his own power. Furthermore: Ganon’s durability. We’ve seen him survive some really asinine stuff. I don’t think Link would be able to fight Ganondorf without a strength enhancing item, or inherently super strength. He has a strength amp in every game where he fights Ganondorf. OoT, WW, TP, aLttP, Zelda I, all contain some strength amping item. None effect gameplay damage, but the moon symbol’s only in a few games.. To say the gauntlets allow him to lift exclusively goes against the canon of Zelda

To support this:

-In TP, Ganondorf is struck by Midna so ungodly hard, that the castle he’s in explodes. This is like being kicked in the nuts so hard your house explodes around you just from the wind generated! Except on a much larger scale, ofcourse. This occurs in a cutscene, and it shows Ganon isn’t going to be hurt by a weak character. See what I mean?

So we see that
-Link grunts while lifting, showing that he is exerting effort
-Ganondorf would never be harmded by a weak Link
-The gauntlets descriptions all say they give him strength.
-The math shows that Link would be much stronger than Kharn physicly.

I’d also like to clarify I know a great deal about Warhammer, and bolt guns are not foreign to me. A bolter is basicly a fully-automatic, rapid-fire, armour-peircing, rocket-propelled grenade launcher on ‘roids. This is perfectly suitable for the warhammer verse where everythign is turned up to 11.

Link still has incredibly good reaction feats, strength feats, durability feats, and magical protection, a long with a sword that could stand up to gorechild and pierce Kharne’s defenses.

Add into this Nayru’s love. consider that like a Warhammer invulnerable save, and the ability to slow time, and I do think Link has this match.

Wait, Kharne can be affected by magic weapons? That changes a few things for me at least. On more than one occasion Light Arrows have been seen simply ignoring armor, such as in Wind Waker, and even passing through to hit enemies behind the target, such as in Spirit Tracks. Indeed, it’s possible to simply vaporize several enemies in a row. Spirit Tracks also added an exorcism aspect, but that’s not particularly important. In Oot they were able to dispel barriers.

I seem to recall arrows piercing Space Marine armor before, as well. I’m pretty sure if a light arrow was to hit Kharne, he’d be slowed at worst and pretty injured at best.

As for mach 22 arrows, I have severe doubts. We don’t know that the arrow even escaped the earth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEK6nVUEr68

There’s simply no way to tell, and even if it did, it only happened in this one instance.

“So we see that
-Link grunts while lifting, showing that he is exerting effort
-Ganondorf would never be harmded by a weak Link
-The gauntlets descriptions all say they give him strength.”
Of course, there is the slight problem that, without the master sword or the hammer of kickassness (name forgotten) Ganondorf can’t be hurt by Link. Thats sort of the whole point of his questing, the Master sword is the only thing that can hurt Ganondorf. Strength doesn’t come into it (I could be wrong here, i’m going off what people have said)

Speed wise its hard to judge, strength wise its hard to judge. While link has shown impressive speed and strength, its far from consistent. One example of huge strength doesn’t negate all the other times he’s shown at average or slightly better strength, and the same goes for speed. kharn is consistently able to dodge and fight well beyond human speeds. Link is consistently shown as fighting at “merely” master swordsman speeds.

You are correct on the matter of gorechild however, it is not (current fluff wise) a daemon weapon, merely huge and deadly sharp.

” I seem to recall arrows piercing Space Marine armor before, as well.”
- Really….. Source?

” -Link grunts while lifting, showing that he is exerting effort”
- Doesn’t really prove anything in relation to what I was saying.

” -Ganondorf would never be harmded by a weak Link”
- Considering that Link actually has (by your admission) a sword designed to hurt “bad” people no matter their durability…. I find this statement fail.

” -The gauntlets descriptions all say they give him strength.”
- Which is only showcased in certain cases and never in combat.

” -The math shows that Link would be much stronger than Kharn physicly. ”
- In certain cases apparently as this amazing strength in never even hinted at in cases not involving moving something heavy.

” Gorechild’s never negated an invunerable save. It’s treated as a power weapon, and is effective against vehicles, but it doesn’t go through Iron Halos for example. It’s also not a daemon weapon at all, but an artefact from the great crusade.”

- To use your own argument, gameplay mechanics. Indeed, I find it hard to believe you on the subject when you clearly haven’t done your research in terms of fluff.
In other words go here and be amazed – http://factpiletopia.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=163

” Link still has incredibly good reaction feats, strength feats, durability feats, and magical protection, a long with a sword that could stand up to gorechild and pierce Kharne’s defenses. ”

- Reaction times – Kharn wins as you have no rebuttal to offer… yet.
- Strength – Link seems to only have this ability “on” in certain cases.
- Durability – Indeed! Cloth can stop Plasma!

” could not turn off Link’s magic cape, or Nayru’s love, or Magic armour.”
- All dependant on either magic or rupee’s and both run out pretty quick. Indeed, Link has to actually hit a giant in a servo-enhanced battle suit (who can dodge bullets) to even have a hope of any victory and most of his hopes rely on magic…. which will run out… and then Kharn gets his skull due to better speed and reflexs.

” -The math shows that Link would be much stronger than Kharn physicly. ”
- I’d be needlessly repeating myself.

“Presumably the Mirror Shield or Reflect spell (that one is instant.) With those, he can reflect virtually any ranged attack, nonmagical included. The Mirror Shield can even launch a retaliatory laser when struck by a ranged attack. Wind Waker’s Magic Armor is also instant.”

Has the reflect spell reflected a non-magic attack? Also, the mirror shield has only defended against magic and middle ages weaponry. What’s to say that it wouldn’t just get melted by a several thousand degree bolt of plasma capable of reliably penetrating even terminator armor and light/medium tank armor.

“P.S. – Sifting through all the Zelda games is a real pain when you’re looking for what Composite Link could pull from his bottomless bag.”

If you allow composite Link, he wins. He has too much stuff.

“” -Link grunts while lifting, showing that he is exerting effort”
- Doesn’t really prove anything in relation to what I was saying.”

Yes, it does. It proves Link is using his strength to move the pillar.

“” -Ganondorf would never be harmded by a weak Link”
- Considering that Link actually has (by your admission) a sword designed to hurt “bad” people no matter their durability…. I find this statement fail. ” And in OoT When he did not have the master sword? He had to rely on his strength without it. Thus showing the gauntlets are active in combat.

“” -The gauntlets descriptions all say they give him strength.”
- Which is only showcased in certain cases and never in combat. ”

See above, also note that Zelda never makes you *watch* combat, you always get to play it. Nintendo has a strict games = played not watched policy. So, when have we had a chance to see this?

“” -The math shows that Link would be much stronger than Kharn physicly. ”
- In certain cases apparently as this amazing strength in never even hinted at in cases not involving moving something heavy. ”
See above…

“” Gorechild’s never negated an invunerable save. It’s treated as a power weapon, and is effective against vehicles, but it doesn’t go through Iron Halos for example. It’s also not a daemon weapon at all, but an artefact from the great crusade.”

- To use your own argument, gameplay mechanics. Indeed, I find it hard to believe you on the subject when you clearly haven’t done your research in terms of fluff.”
Now you’re committing ad hominem. I have indeed done my research. It is *hinted* at being a daemon weapon in a single short story of indeterminable canon veracity. I’m sitting here with my codex, and it is not a daemon weapon. I’m an avid Warhammer fan, my belief that Link would win this fight doesn’t mean I’m ignorant or biased.

“” Link still has incredibly good reaction feats, strength feats, durability feats, and magical protection, a long with a sword that could stand up to gorechild and pierce Kharne’s defenses. ”

- Reaction times – Kharn wins as you have no rebuttal to offer… yet.
- Strength – Link seems to only have this ability “on” in certain cases.
- Durability – Indeed! Cloth can stop Plasma!”

Reaction time: Link’s reacted to hypersonic attacks, can cut arrows out of the air, and out-fight Ganon who has speed feats as good as a space marine. (Crossing the room before anyone sees him in TP.) In WW, Link parry’s Ganon and dives onto his head with the sword for the finish, for example.
Strength: In TP Link stops a Goron dead in it’s tracks and tosses it like a ball. My math says the Goron is 200 tons.This alone would be enough to put him above Kharn in strength ,but later he wins a sword-lock with an admittedly weakened Ganondorf. He had no strength enhancing items at /all/ here.
Durability. Link walks around in lava, and has a load of magical protections. He also has to go against Ganon in all of his incarnations. In WW, Ganon busted an island with the majority of his power still pinned down by the master sword. I’m sorry, but what he’s wearing doesn’t matter too much, his base durability is super-human. If you allow protective items, each individual Link has a pile of ways to improve this. OoT Link has the magical protection of the silver hearts, doubling his durability, Nayru’s love, and in MM obtaisn Chateau Romani.

WW Link’s magic armour is instant

aLttP Link has the red mail, magic cape, cane of Byrna, ect.

All three of those have the mirrorshield which makes plasma a risky proposition for Kharn.

Zelda/Zelda II Link has the magic shield, red ring, shield spell, and reflect spell. (instant.)

Firing his plasma pistol is more likely to backfire on Kharn than kill Link.

“” could not turn off Link’s magic cape, or Nayru’s love, or Magic armour.”
- All dependant on either magic or rupee’s and both run out pretty quick. Indeed, Link has to actually hit a giant in a servo-enhanced battle suit (who can dodge bullets) to even have a hope of any victory and most of his hopes rely on magic…. which will run out… and then Kharn gets his skull due to better speed and reflexs. ”

Two words: Chateau Romani. OoT/MM Link, and any composite Link, gets infinite magic for 3 days. All of the other Links magic meters all get eaten very slowly, or do not continually eat magic. The only one this is even an issue for is TP Link. As mentioned, Link has great reaction time. He could easily land hits on Kharn, who would be unable to hurt Link until his invunerability wore off. This could take anywhere from several minutes for most Links, to three whole days for OoT/MM Link.

In conclusion: Link has defenses against Kharn, Kharn does not have defenses against Link. They both have great reflexes, but Link’s protected. Link is physicly stronger, and has powerful magic he can use to his advantage.

“Has the reflect spell reflected a non-magic attack? Also, the mirror shield has only defended against magic and middle ages weaponry. What’s to say that it wouldn’t just get melted by a several thousand degree bolt of plasma capable of reliably penetrating even terminator armor and light/medium tank armor.”

A plasma shot, while impressive, doesn’t destroy any of the magical artefacts in 40K fluff, why woudl Zelda artefacts be different?

“Because the plasma bolts are shooting at sci-fi equipment, not middle ages artifacts.” Middle age equipment which survives things that put it obviously above the norm for middle age equipment in the real world. In fiction this is called the fallacy of novelty. Newer =/= better.

@ScreamPaste
Give it up kid, the FactPile Award has already been given Kharn the Betrayer. Most of Link’s weapons are magic and Kharn is immune to magic. And you say that Link physically stronger than Kharn? Ooooohhhh boy…

“@ScreamPaste
Give it up kid, the FactPile Award has already been given Kharn the Betrayer. Most of Link’s weapons are magic and Kharn is immune to magic. And you say that Link physically stronger than Kharn? Ooooohhhh boy…”

If this debate in some way offends you, you’re free to not read my opinions. But yeah, I have evidence that Link is physicly stronger, and magic weapons within 40K /do/ effect Kharn, he’s only immune to spells.

“Your proof? In addition, the fact the the master sword flew out of his hand means that the Master Sword never really took that much force. Also, tell me how you think a sword can block a bolt of ionized gas.” To put it in perspective,Link had the golden gauntlets. He had the strength to casually /toss/ a pillar that weighed a thousand tons. Ganon was stronger. They clashed. The sword was fine.

“Yes, the mirriorshield deflects a MAGIC blast. Also, last i checked, when i jump into a pit of lava the game re-spawns me with a damage penalty. Also, compared to plasma, lava’s nothing. Lava is usually a few hundred degrees C, while plasma is at least 5000 C.”

Magic > Tech. Anytime the two meet in fiction, guess who wins. In WH40K, for example, many psykers can stop plasma blasts.

Also, having personally been exposed to a temperature of about 5000 degrees, it’s a matter of heat conduction. I had my ear melted, but I was otherwise just fine. (Don’t play with magnesium. Lesson learned.. )

Also, Link only respawns at the beginning of a room when you fall into an area that you can’t get out of, such as a bottomless pit, or certain lava pools that have no ledges you can reach. The pits you can get out of do not warp you out, and Link can walk around.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/lavawalk.jpg

“Inhuman strength and asinine velocities? In OoT, the arrows seem to move at regular arrow speeds, and no change occurs upon obtaining the “strength enhancing” silver or gold gauntlets.”

The arrows never arc, they fly straight, and go through hurricane force winds. Normal arrows cannot do this. In OoT an arrow is fired “at” the sun. People here are contending it probably never left the earth’s atmosphere, but the arrows are clearly much faster than regular arrows regardless.

” Magic > Tech. Anytime the two meet in fiction, guess who wins. In WH40K, for example, many psykers can stop plasma blasts. ”

- Wow…. awesome generalization that in no way address the fact that the mirror shield defects projectiles of a magical nature and you simply said “IT WOULD DEFLECT ANYWAY!” Please, how about some actual proof instead of making claims that are paramount to me saying that since I’m invunerable to shark bites because of my chain-mail, then I’m obviously invunerable to bullets too.

” The arrows never arc, they fly straight, and go through hurricane force winds. Normal arrows cannot do this. In OoT an arrow is fired “at” the sun. People here are contending it probably never left the earth’s atmosphere, but the arrows are clearly much faster than regular arrows regardless.”

– Considering this is based of a game from the 90’s and you have yet to show actual proof of higher arrow speeds, just no. However, this event you refer to when an arrow goes through a tornado is interesting…. the game that this occurs and the nearest reference point?

“” If you allow composite Link, he wins. He has too much stuff.”
- Considering we’re still debating, stop jumping to “I WINZ!” Makes you look like an idiot when several of your points are only truely accepted….. by you. ” I’m not jumping to “I WINZ!” I’m saying a composite Link has way too much stuff. ..Like when he gets the triforce at the end of aLttP. <–Shenanigans.

"- Considering that you used the fact that Ganon was defeated with the Master Sword, as that was the entire freakin’ reason for the sword, as evidence of Link’s strength out off combat and in no way actually showcases Link’s strength, your example was fail. What are you refering to when you say ” And in OoT When he did not have the master sword?” – As in an actual point in the game?"

When Ganon disarms Link of the mastersword.

"- Considering that the hypersonic attacks were nothing more than waiting to strike and/or raising a shield – No. Cutting arrows is impressive…. but once again – Modern compound bows (which have a higher velocity in relation to Link’s bow as it is never described as special in terms of velocity in my research) are still slower than an outdated RPG-7 projectile by a factor of three…. and Kharn has dodged them at near point black range. What I’m trying to relate is that Kharn has superior reflexs as Link hasn’t shown any real special feet beyond countering arrows traveling relatively slow. "
Here, I disagree. Majora unleashes quite a ridiculous flurry of lashes with his whips, to just wait for them with your shield up is unrealistic in the extreme when your shield does not cover your entire body, and your opponent can simply aim around it. The arrows being shot at Link have nothing to say that they are special, no, but it's still a good feat. I'm mostly using it to establish consistancy. Also, It's impossible for a modern compound bow to shoot an arrow faster than Link's bow, which sends arrows through tornadoes.

"- Before you try to say that Link’s arrows travel at Mach 22….. please… be real and ask yourself… does any of that make fucking sense at all with no real proof beyond vaguely shooting at the sun to gain an arrow set?"

If it was the only tiem Link's arrows did something impossible, sure, but it isn't.

"- Do you have a reference point of the goron scene and what are the physical feats of that version of Ganon? "

Dangoro, the Goron mini-boss in TP's Goron mines. I'll see if I can find the screenshot I used.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/2059jxy.jpg

Gorons are said to be made of stone, but I mathed Dangoro as lighter than any stone to allow room for air pockets in his curled up form and so that if I err'd, I'd err on the lighter side.

This version of Ganon disintegrated a sage with a punch, tore the chains in the sages chamber, and stood up to TP Link's retard strength for four rounds of battle.

"” In WW, Ganon busted an island with the majority of his power still pinned down by the master sword. I’m sorry, but what he’s wearing doesn’t matter too much, his base durability is super-human.”

- I love how you cite me for using gameplay fallacies….. and then you use these. Gameplay mechanics most frequently refers to damage rates and this is a clear example of this principal. I can take a RPG-like round from a distance of two feet away on Killzone 2 and walk away from it… does that mean that my character is superhuman? No, gameplay mechanics. "

This isn't a gameplay mechanic at all. It's a canon event that Ganondorf destroyed an island. It's also shown in a cutscene that he beats the crap out of Link. This establishes Link as being able to survive the crap being beaten out of him by Ganondorf. :\

"- Which is based on arrow events… not rocket propelled bullets. In this way, I could easily say that Kharn is faster than Link by a factor of at least three (I say at least as this is going off of modern compound bows and an outdated RPG that doesn’t use the powerfully propellants of WH 40k). "

You're ignoring the fight with Majora here. The current world record for two whips in the hands of a regular man is 144 cracks per minute. That's multiple cracks per second. Link would have to deal with several hyper-sonic whip attacks per second whiel fighting Majora. Volume of strikes+speed of strikes = impressive feat. This was without sleeping for a bare minimum of three days. Even if he's defending with his shield, blockign each individual blow would be beyond any peak human.

"- Defenses – Yes, he does have formidible defenses, but they are tied into magic and I have yet to see why Kharn would be unable to touch him while his weapon has been described to go through anything… even souls. "

No limit fallacy thar. his weapon is admittedly amazing. But Ganon is even stronger than Link, and he could not smash his way through Nayru's love. With Chateau Romani, Link can have NAyru's love up for 3 days.

"- Reflexs – I’ve already made my point, Kharn has reflexive feats that far outstrip Link."

I respectfully disagree on this point, based on sheer volume of attacks Link can handle in a short period of time. Also, Link can slow time with the ocarina, which will close the gap, if it is there.

"- Strength – Seems awkard to say that, but as soon as you have answered my questions concerning the goron and ganon, and have shown how the guantlets come into play when they shown no real difference in combat, I might agree with you."

Alright. You're willing to see my point of view, I like that.

In the cutscene posted above, we see Link stopping a Goron which my math says is 200 tons, assuming a lower-than-stone density, and Link is 6 feet tall. Link is anchored to the ground by his Iron boots, which are magnetised, so that the collision doesn't send Link flying, as physics dictate would happen, no matter how strong anyone is. He brings it to a full stop, and then tosses it into the lava, like a ball. This screenshot was taken while they're side by side, as Link winds up the toss, for scale. This is with no strength amps.

In OoT, Link's golden gauntlets are beign worn in the Ganondorf fight. Ganon disarms Link after the castle collapses, and Link is forced to fight with the megaton hammer. With no sacred weapon which will bypass Ganon's insane durability, he has to rely on his strength.

In TP again, we see that Ganondorf can withstand an attack from Midna which demolishes the castle he's in as it hits him. so we know Ganon is very durable, because he tanks this blow and is still around for two more rounds with Link.

Back in OoT, we see that Link managed to bypass this durability without the master sword. It seems to me, that without the golden gauntlets, this would be impossible.

"- Wow…. awesome generalization that in no way address the fact that the mirror shield defects projectiles of a magical nature and you simply said “IT WOULD DEFLECT ANYWAY!” Please, how about some actual proof instead of making claims that are paramount to me saying that since I’m invunerable to shark bites because of my chain-mail, then I’m obviously invunerable to bullets too."

Bad comparison is bad. The mirror shield reflects things it really should not. Ice, and fire? This is a little strange. Light arrows, too. Why is it being assumed that it can *only* reflect magic? This is a limitation that's never been shown. This would kind of stop it from reflecting mundane light. :\ which it does just fine.

"– Considering this is based of a game from the 90’s and you have yet to show actual proof of higher arrow speeds, just no. However, this event you refer to when an arrow goes through a tornado is interesting…. the game that this occurs and the nearest reference point?"

In Wind Waker, the way you get the song which allows you to use tornadoes to teleport is by coming across a giant cyclone, at the center of which sits a wind god, who creates these to suck up the ships of travellers and scatter them across the great sea.

Link earsn his respect by shoosting him with an arrow, through the massive cyclone. This was in a GC game, and the arrows still do not arc. You have to be reasonably far away to do it, otherwise you get sucked in.

“Bad comparison is bad. The mirror shield reflects things it really should not. Ice, and fire? This is a little strange. Light arrows, too. Why is it being assumed that it can *only* reflect magic? This is a limitation that’s never been shown. This would kind of stop it from reflecting mundane light. :\ which it does just fine.”

Please stop using the no limits fallacy. A magic shield deflecting directional magic attacks makes sense, a magic shield blocking a plasma bolt that would make a mockery out modern tank armor doesn’t.

“Magic > Tech. Anytime the two meet in fiction, guess who wins. In WH40K, for example, many psykers can stop plasma blasts.”

When magic beats tech in fiction, the magic is usually perfectly suited to beat the tech it goes up against through some kind of plot mechanic.

“Also, having personally been exposed to a temperature of about 5000 degrees, it’s a matter of heat conduction. I had my ear melted, but I was otherwise just fine. (Don’t play with magnesium. Lesson learned.. )”

1. Sorry to hear that you lost your ear.
2. Was that temp in F or C, because my minimum 5000 degree figure is C.
3. Lab accident >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liquid rock.

“You’re ignoring the fight with Majora here. The current world record for two whips in the hands of a regular man is 144 cracks per minute. That’s multiple cracks per second. Link would have to deal with several hyper-sonic whip attacks per second whiel fighting Majora. Volume of strikes+speed of strikes = impressive feat.”

While I won’t deny that link has impressive reactions, he still had the chance to see majora pull back and predict the blows. Also, he was blocking a very small point of impact with a relatively large shield.

“(Though taking severe beatings from one of the strongest Primarchs and surviving is no small feat)”

Not to mention the fact that that happened pre-heresy, so Kharn wasn’t all jacked up on chaos power. Also, side note, if you’d like a quote I have the entire horus heresy series sitting on my shelf.

“I actually think that the master sword would stand up very well to gorechild. If we allow Kenny C to continue stating it’s a deamon weapon, it will probably even smite gorechild.”

Gorechild is merely an obnoxiously powerful weapon. It was one of Angorn’s pre/heresy weapons. So unless the weapon itself was enhanced by chaos post-heresy, it’s merely an extremely powerful chain axe.

“3. Lab accident >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liquid rock”

Typo, my bad. I meant to write that a focused blast of weaponized plasma >>>Liquid rock. Also, that pool of lava you showed link standing in still managed to hurt him, just not instantly.

“- You have yet to show any particular feats as to Link’s strength in combat with the golden gauntlets that proves superior strength. Indeed, since all we have to go off is gaming and a few cutscenes here and there, there is actually more evidence to support that the Golden Gauntlets only truely come into play when Link needs to lift something.”

“”- Considering that you used the fact that Ganon was defeated with the Master Sword, as that was the entire freakin’ reason for the sword, as evidence of Link’s strength out off combat and in no way actually showcases Link’s strength, your example was fail. What are you refering to when you say ” And in OoT When he did not have the master sword?” – As in an actual point in the game?”

When Ganon disarms Link of the mastersword.”

Let me elaborate, since you haven’t played OoT. Ganon disarms Link. He does not have the master sword. Ganon is so durable that in TP, when Midna hits him hard enough the castle around him explodes, he’s unharmed…. And Link with the megaton hammer can hurt Ganon without enhanced strength? I’ve sunk your proverbial battle ship.

“1 – You have yet to prove that the master sword could even stop Gorechild from ripping right through it. Just becuase its magical doesn’t mean that’s its unbreakable to Gorechild. Indeed, while there are plenty of cases in which certanin things in the Zelda series can succesfully withstand the Mastersword, while Gorechild has had no such problem…….. in more than ten thousand years…. the galaxy over. ”

Cause y’know, a magic sword that sits around untouched by time for centuries, and withstands clashes between two characters each well into the metahuman strength range is going to be eaten through by a chain axe, which we know can’t eat through magic in 40K. (Iron halo/rosarius anyone?) The sword’s pretty obviously highly durable, if not indestructable.

“2 – You have failed to give a reason why the mirror shield would not melt from plasma or even how it would stand up to Gorechild. Simply claiming that it would because it has every thing before (all of which were simply magical attacks or simple medieval tools) doesn’t mean that it would resist an axe which has never been unable to penetrate….. not even possessed daemon objects can stop it. Same thing applies to Naryu’s Love. It has never faced anything on the scale of Gorechild and to state that it would resist anyway hints at No Limits Fallacy. ”

Actually, you’re the one using a no-limits fallacy here. Ganon cannot get through Nayru’s love. This establishes it as being able to withstand physical damage on a much higher range than Kharn can deal out.

“– What exactly are these attacks you claim are higher in power? ” Anything from Ganon. In WW he destroys an island, and this is with most of his power pinned down by the master sword. In OoT he shows himself to be physicly stronger than even Link with the golden gauntlets, and he can’t get through Nayru’s love.

Gorechild does not go through invulnerable saves, and while greatly impressive as a weapon, not moreso than an attack from a monstrous creature. Nayru;s love = invulnerable save. Gorechild does not go through magic. Nayru’s love = magic.

“- The fact remains that Kharn has dodged both whips and bullets with ease with little to no warning, while Link had plenty of warning before an attack would begin, could resist most of them by simply holding up a shield in the general direction, and could stop most of the other attacks by hitting Majora with acorns. Kharn’s speed and reaction time trumps Link’s.”

I love how when Link reacts to a whip, he has piles of warning, and yet Kharn doesn’t get that. The fact remains a flurry of whip attacks from Majora, who is not stupid enough to aim for a shield, is very impressive, and puts Link on Kharn’s level.

Hell, in the fight before this, Majora moves fast enough to leave after-images.

“Next post will focus on disproving any notion that Link’s arrows travel any faster than regular arrows and proving that the one instance that Link does show superhuman strength against a Goron was clearly overestimated.”

The next post will focus on arguing with canon feats for the arrows? Like, flying through a giant cyclone?

Also, I used an impossibly low density for the Goron, so have fun.

“Do you have any proof that TP and OoT gannon have the same durability? I’ve played several Zelda games and gannon varies more than link does.” How so? He’s always the same guy. There’s some variance between the 2d games and the 3d games, yes, but that’s because the series has been going on for more than two decades.

[quote]Also, in OoT, when gannon disarms link and you have to use the hammer or biggeron’s sword, you harm him by attacking a GAME-PLAY MECHANIC WEAK POINT.[/quote] This is how Zelda boss battles work. The fact remains Link without the master sword, knocked Ganon silly long enough to get the sword back.

[quote]I’ve also played MM, and imho, majora’s a bit of a whimp. Those afterimages were just to look fancy. If he really was that fast, what stopped him from zooming behind me and effortlessly owning my ass?[/quote] Link’s reaction time, that’s the point.

[quote]Nayru’s love takes a few seconds to activate. I know this from being frustrated on how long that little activation scene took. In that time it takes to activate, Kharns plasma pistol could turn him into nothing but ash and a could of vapor.[/quote] This point was mostly to counter Kenny C. claiming Gorechild will go through “anything”. That’s a no limit fallacy. The WW magic armour, Zelda II shield spell, and aLttP magic cape items all get around fine without a cast time, anyway.

It would do fine against Kharn’s armour, especially if he’s chaos’d it up any. The sword itself is hinted at to be sentient through out the games, as well. It “chooses” it’s wielder and won’t let evil ones touch it. /Random side note. With Link’s strength behind it, it could easily do what chainswords already do. If you look at the numbers, Link’s capable of an energy output in terms of strength that dwarfs any tank shell.

[quote]Also, before you go on about the gauntlets, if they do enhance battle strength, why doesn’t link’s sword turn his enemies into a pink mist with the slightest touch while he’s wearing them.
[/quote]
1. Gameplay mechanics
2. E rating.
3. You only get the gauntlets during the last ten minutes of OoT, the cartridge was already full as the game takes up 32 MB. (the whole thing.) an extra animation for every enemy = unnecessary space.
4. Why don’t all of Kratos, War, Alex Mercer, ect’s enemies disperse into fine mist?

A game needs to be played, and that means ,even though the grunt enemies don’t pose any real threat to the character, they do need to provide a gameplay challenge.

sentient sword=/=sword that can penetrate inches of ceramite.

sentient sword implies the sword posseses a soul, which makes it a juicy treat for gorechild. i would also like to point out that holy aura’s or evil smiting capabilities do not work in the same way against 40k characters as they do against characters in other universes. whilst we assume everything works as intended (ergo the mastersword smites evil) we can also assume that if kharn is sufficiently evil (moral mechanics working as they are intended to for a 40k character) he can overwhelm and ignore the power of the mastersword. so what we need is concensus on whether the mastersword can be harmed by gorechild, and whether it is of sufficient holy/evil smiting power that it nullifies kharns ability to suppress such attacks.

since you want us to look at the numbers that outright state link can produce more force than the combined kinetic, penetrative and explosive force induced by mbt main weapons, ill have to ask you to provide these numbers.

avoiding a whip, which requires a minmum amount of space to use, or blocking it using a large sheet of steel, is manifestly easier to do than to dodge rounds from automatic weapons or bolt weapons fired at point blank range with no warning.

put simply, there is no such thing as “no warning” when someone is trying to kill you with a whip. there is such thing as “no warning” when someone is trying to kill you with a gun.

invulnerable saves=/=complete protection, they are merely unmodifiable, and this is meant to represent the fact that they always offer the same level of protection, no matter what kind of attack or yield of attack is levied against them. also, *game mechanic*

nayru’s love=/=invulnerable save. they do not work in the same fashion, they are not activated in the same fashion, and they do not mitigate damage in the same fashion. also, invulnerable saves *do not exist* in wh40k, because they are a game mechanic for the game, not an actual existing and defined property in universe.

iron halo’s and rosarii, examples of the invulnerable save mechanic, are not magic, they are technology, and as such =/= to magical defences.

as to arguing ganon’s endurance in OOT by referencing another game, fail. logical inconsistencies exist between different instances of the legend of zelda games, therefor infering the abilities of a character from one by recourse to the other is bad logic.

you also assert that ganon is physically stronger than kharn. proof please.

firstly, i suppose i can concede the idea of gorechild being daemonic if more recent canon states otherwise (since more recent canon contradicts older stuff)

the kind of logic it is, is that there are limits on all things. suggesting that something is more powerful the more powerful its enemy is a roundabout way of using the no limits fallacy. it is also the result of how influential games like D&D are, which gives this kind of idea mainly because of a certain amount of lazyness in thinking out the metaphysics of morality (which, truth be told, is understandable when your creating such a complicated ruleset)

kharn isnt chaotic evil, because chaotic evil is a D&D morality mechanic as suited to wh40k as it is to zelda, or to real life. that is to say it isnt. murder isnt inherently evil either, or all sword wielding heroes would be evil, including, i presume, zelda. that means that evil is either completely arbitrary or a gradiated scale dependent upon situation….but that is digressing massively, and i *really* dont think we need to discuss philosophy here.

i do think before i post, and i think it is at least as safe to assume there are limits to the power of the master sword as to assume there arent. afterall, if we dont assume the master sword has limits, it becomes something that can slay the likes of galactus, unicron, morgoth or any other rediculously powerful god-being. again, i am guarding against the no limits fallacy.

even in game one could argue against this. does the sword do more damage to ganon than it does to a mook? because surely ganon is both more evil and more powerful (and therefor more evil again, relatively speaking) than some minor enemy in an earlier level…i doubt it.

invulnerable saves do not exist outside of the game mechanics, which are used to force balance ingame and avoid the need for micromanagement, and it is a game mechanic representing a notion that does not exist in the wh40k universe, as such the term is too vague, and irrelevant for argumentation since game mechanics are evidently not used in cross universe arguments, for the simple reason that they by necessity contradict any notion of canon. it is an imperfect mechanic in itself, if we look at necron warscythes. they ignore invul’s. but how can you ignore a defence that means the enemy isnt where your striking? the old ravenwing “jink” save should still provide a defence agains the warscythe, given that it is a dodge. it doesnt, which means the mechanic is ill fit as a blanket rule (though it is still the best option)

i think you wouldnt have been forced to argue against kharn if you had bothered to properly understand my points.

Fallacy # 1 – Since Link’s arrows can travel within a water spouts/tornado, theyz must be really fast!

- No. In fact, to defeat Cyclos you have to actually account for the strong winds that surround him and either spam him with arrows or try to account for the shift that occurs when shooting into the water spout. In addition, there is no actual proof that the winds are rotating at a significant speed. This is further illistrated that there is no mention of Link’s arrows being that special without magic applied to them, and none of those spells, to my knowledge, affect speed. In other words, Kharn would have very little trouble avoiding the arrows. While Link will find it hard to avoid the bolts of plasma heading straight at him.

Fallacy # 2 – Link is really strong and Ganon is also really strong!

- No. You have yet to prove that Link has been able to use the effects of the golden gauntlets while in combat. Indeed, when you sourced that particular Goron’s weight at 200 tons, you made critical mistakes.

Goron’s are silicon-based lifeforms and as such the rocky outgrowths on their bodies are the result of their respiratory system at work, processing oxygen into silica. They are not made of rocks to say the least. Therefore your equations are wrong right out of the gate.

Now, I took at look at Dangoro and estimated his height to be around 14 ft…. but lets go ahead and make him 18 ft. Using that and the fact his width is also massive leads me to believe that he is around twenty to twenty-two times as massive as me. Lets go ahead and up it to thirty times my mass for now. Now, Gorons are indeed more dense and heavy than any human, so I estimate that an single pound of my flesh would equal four pounds of a similarly-sized piece of Goron flesh. Let’s up that estimate to ten pounds for the hell of it. With these figures I come up with this equation -

190 pounds (my weight) X 30 (How many times more massive Dangoro is to me) X 10 (how much more dense he is then me) = 57,000 pounds or 28.5 tons (short ton)

Meaning, that in one instance of Link showing superhuman strength, while having Iron boots to weigh him down and provide an anchor point, he was still weaker than Kharn by a factor of at least 7 (200 divided by 28.5)

Thereby leading to Ganon being much weaker than you estimated.

(Please remember that I overestimated Dangoro’s heigth and density just to set a max. of how strong Link COULD be, without seeking the moderate route.)

Fallacy # 3 – Gorechild can’t go through invunerable saves! Invunerable saves = Magic!

- Using tabletop balancing mechanics to estimate the strength of Gorechild, when the fiction posted suggests nothing of the kind, is a poor agruement. The Tebletop game itself admits to “nerf-bat” several of their armies and characters to provide a more balanced game. The same thing applies to Kharn, while in fiction his Axe cuts through tank-armor and shields with ease due to the teeth of the Mica dragon, the GW crew had to scale this back as to give other named character’s a chance when facing the second greatest, living, hand-to-hand combatant in WH40K.

That being said Nayru’s love has never faced a weapon of Gorechild’s pedigree and never a warrior who has had over ten thousand years to perfect his craft of killing.

Fallacy # 5 – Da Mastersword is unbreakable! The Mirror shield can stop plasma boltz!

The simple fact it that the Mastersword has a history of facing enemies that can resist the sword to the point that a special strategy is needed to defeat the particular enemy. Gorechild has never faced such a problem, it chews through everything. Even the swords apparent timelessness is simply an example of minor magic that keeps it from rusting and fixing small cracks here and there over time to retain it’s edge and sheen. Once again, the Mastor Sword has never faced something on the scale that Kharn & Gorechild can lay down and there is no evidence that it would survive as it has apparently met materials in it’s own universe that stops it completely.

The Mirror shield is an a similar position in that while it can deflect simple medieval weapons, light, and magically-charged weapons due to it’s nature…. Plasma bolts on the scale of WH40K are another thing entirely. You can hardly say that it would survive when it has only faced elements of which it was designed to face (magic) and simple medieval weapons. I have no trouble seeing the mirror shield melting and therefore disarming Link of it or even possibly fusing it to his arm.

- All in all, Kharn has shown the ability to crave through….. everything no matter the material, strength, or origin. Link has no such feat to his name. Kharn has dodge rocket-propelled bullets with ease. Link has to rely on his shield to even have a hope against enemies with whips. Kharn has survived over ten thousand years of WH40K as a front line combatant. Link has no where near this amount of experience.

More later…..

P.S. – I’m having a hard time finding the post in which admin allowed composite Link….. I need some help.

“In other words, Kharn would have very little trouble avoiding the arrows.”

If they’re just normal arrows, why bother dodging. That wold be like trying to bring down a brick wall with a bb gun.

“The same thing applies to Kharn, while in fiction his Axe cuts through tank-armor and shields with ease due to the teeth of the Mica dragon, the GW crew had to scale this back as to give other named character’s a chance when facing the second greatest, living, hand-to-hand combatant in WH40K.”

Random curiosity, who do you categorize as the first?

“- Kharn’s boss – Angron……. wait…. I need to think to think this over again…. Second Greatest Hand-to-hand combatant who is both alive and not on the level of godhood.”

Well there are other Primarchs still out there, and I doubt that Kharn could beat any of them solely on the fact that they’re still Fing Primarchs.

“Not to sure about that one Yamato….. not to sure about that.”

Not too sure about what, the fact that there are other primarchs still out there, or that Kharn would lose to them.

O_O

ok, i didnt expect that lol. cool.

anyway:

“Not really. it has a very specific limit. It can’t hurt innocent things with any reliability. Samurai Jack had a good example, with Jacks sword designed to kill evil where-ever it was found, it was also incapable of ever wounding him, a pure and good soul. Thats rather a large limitation.
Plus, while its capable of more power depending on the higher evil levels of its opponent, its generally assumed that the more evil a person is, the more powerful they are. Or at least thats how it tends to work in fiction.”

afaik, jacks sword hasnt actually been used by jack to kill a living (and morally capable) thing. demons, cyborgs, robots…he has slaughtered these with awesome abandon, he’s cut trees and the like down with it, but i dont think he ever killed or a sentient, morally responsible biological organism. admittedly this is intended to get around censors in (amongst other countries) certain country’s, who disallow any show or game with gratituous depictions of blood…but the fact stands ’till disproven.

i would like to put forward the assertion that when there a sword which becomes more lethal the more evil an opponent is, that the actual physical fact of the sword impacting is not the thing which causes damage, but the holy aura (or whatever) transfering some kind of assault through the physical contact. as such, the only reason such a sword would have for actually being a sword, is so that it can continue to be used offensively in situations where the opponent is not technically “evil”. this allows for the master sword to, for example, cut up wood in the same way jack’s katana can; otherwise there would be no need to have created the sword to be “master”, it couldve been the master beanbag instead. this, combined with the example you give of an attack with the sword doing 3 hearts damage to a mook and one to ganon suggests that ganon posseses defences that ameliorate or counter the holy power of the sword, whether it be armour or magic. in either case the above assertion becomes problematic as it means the sword must either penetrate armour to do damage, or that the holy power is finite. in the case of the former the master sword can do kharn no harm untill it’s “holiness” has ruptured his armour sufficiently that a strike can break through to touch kharns flesh. in the case of the latter the swords store of holy energy must be sufficient that it break through khornes blessings and still deal damage to kharn himself…i dont see link living long enough to ensure either result happening.

ill give you the point on links understanding of evil being the decider on whether the sword could theoretically harm kharn here, but;

“The difference between murder and killing in a fair fight is often an issue brought up by heroes. Men who would kick a sword to their enemy so they don’t kill an unarmed man, who give their enemies a chance to surrender, who don’t backstab or harm the “innocent” according to their rules. Thats as close to good as you’ll generally find in a fictional universe”

the difference between murder and killing is generally in the form of or explicit direction of intent. to “kill” someone without “murdering” them is either to end their life by complete accident, or that their death is the result of some intended action on your part that doesnt take the possible death of a person into account. murdering someone, by contrast, is to intentionally act so that their life ends, “the end of that life being the goal and the means of the acts success” as it were. of course kharn is a murderer, he would admit it freely and he would probably laugh at anyone surprised or shocked by the admission. the reason the acts are evil are that 1) he murders on a truly preposterous scale, and 2) that he does so without remorse, not seeing any innate worth in those murdered beyond adding more skulls to the throne.
“heroes” still murder, aragorn killing dunlendings, or conan killing thulsa doom, these are acts of murder, justified by being in a state of war or being of strange (in modern terms) ethical predispositions. a perhaps more relevant example would be the contest in orc-killing between legolas and gimli at helms deep; they are infact doing this with the exact same immediate goals (winning the fight and scoring “points”) that kharn murders humans for. the difference is in perspective, and in the troublesome (at least for tolkien) notion that things can be necessarily evil.

men kicking a sword to their opponent isnt so much a matter of morality in fantastical universes (though it was in norse and saxon culture, where the notion comes from) as it is a matter of serving ones own pride. to kill one who cannot defend themselves is shameful rather than wrong, because there is no glory in killing one who cannot kill you back.

“Perhaps, but the Ganon would be considerably more powerful than said standard mook. Thus what takes three hearts (gameplay wise) off of a mook would take only one off of Ganon, or possibly none”

ive already addressed this, to a degree, in my thinking on how the master sword “works”, but i would like to say here that assuming the master sword does more evil to evil things, then it should do more damage not less to ganon, no matter the physical strength of the attack, for the combined facts that he is “more” evil than the mook, and that he is more “powerfully evil” (more capable of, and more willing to, commit acts of great evil). if it cant then it is not capable of truly dishing out damage proportionate to the evil of the opponent, and is therefor limited in its scope for righteous punishment.

” I agree the notion is ridiculous, but thats how it seems to work, and who are we to call Magic ridiculous, thats the whole point of it surely?”

glad we agree, but my argument isnt actually against the rediculousness of the notion, so much as it is pointing out that the master sword is not an example of this kind of weapon, which, if memory serves, is known as an “infinity +1 sword” elsewhere in the web. i will happily retract my argument if it can be proven that the master sword is just such a weapon, but as it is i feel ive done a relatively decent job (not excellent by any means, as im no demagogue or orator-several people here have had trouble with my style of writing in the bare few days ive been posting lol) of disproving the notion; and of putting forward the idea that if it isnt an “infinty+1 sword” then it doesnt infer upon link any more meaningful a chance of defeating kharn, who in every way that matters (and isnt magical) is beyond link.

anyway. thinking back on other peoples’ points; somewhere above me it is written that ganon disarms link of this sword, and link still beats him to a pulp. if this is so then i could quite happily assert that the master sword has little innate power to itself at all, except perhaps the channeling of links own “goodness” in the manner of ki-strikes in certain anime and manga.

doesnt disprove my point about jacks sword scenario. what i say is ” i dont think he ever killed or a sentient, morally responsible biological organism”, not that no one else had ever tried to do so.

your comment on the master sword makes its application sound very specific, as does the wiki article i skimmed…as if it could only be used in defence of the triforce or whatever. anyone able to comment on this? because if this is so it just got one hell of a lot less useful.

“Theres always his other weapons. Biggerons hammer for one would be interesting. Possibly Thunder-hammer level of hurting”

Possibly, but what are the odds of something as cumbersome as the megaton hammer actually hitting Kharn?

@Anonymous
No he does not have the Triforce. It isn’t one of his standard equipment, unless specifically said in the fight description, Link can’t use it.

And why does kharn have blue hair?

Uh…thats not Kharns hair…its more of a decoration or something.

@Kenny C.
IDK
But if admin didnt say it then its probably something everyone agreed on as one link couldnt win

“O_O
ok, i didnt expect that lol. cool.”

If someone takes the time to type reams of words in response to something I’ve said, i do my best to reply. Its only fair. I try to be respectful too, though sometimes that fails a little.

This match seems to be strayin into wild mass guessing. And I’m all for it, Nintendo Fans are so very good at this sort of thing (PhaXon from metroid as a prime example)

Lets try it this way,

Base characters, no additions, Kharn in a loincloth with a stick and Link attired the same, Kharn stands the best chance of victory.

With bog standard armours and their weapons (Master sword/Gorechild, Chaos Armour/whatever link wears) then again, with those basic pieces of equipment, its mostly looking in Kharns favour.

if we stretch beyond that, Link has far more to draw on and, potentially, could get a win, somehow. I’ve never played the games, but I tend to believe well written posts on the basis that… I’m a sucker for the english language and politeness. Link has a lot of magical weapons to call on, and they may be a combo, somehwere, theoretically, that could beat Kharn.

Fine, lets discuss what that could be.

Meanwhile, anyone out there who’s a fan of Warhammer fantasy, lets try and think of a fair match for Link from that universe rather than pairing him off against someone with millenia’s more tech behind them.

GOTREK! GOTREK! GOTREK!

“- No. In fact, to defeat Cyclos you have to actually account for the strong winds that surround him and either spam him with arrows or try to account for the shift that occurs when shooting into the water spout. In addition, there is no actual proof that the winds are rotating at a significant speed.”

…..Wait, did you just claim the winds of a giant cyclone being personally orchestrated by a cyclone diety which sucks up your boat and throws it across the sea if you get too close is nothing but a breeze? Yes, you did. This is where I tell you that you are infact, incorrect, and again, no arrow fired by a human being would ever get through that.

“- No. You have yet to prove that Link has been able to use the effects of the golden gauntlets while in combat. Indeed, when you sourced that particular Goron’s weight at 200 tons, you made critical mistakes. ”

Actually I did prove my point, but you haven’t replied to that. I wonder why…… Ohwell. I’ll get to replying to this.

“Goron’s are silicon-based lifeforms and as such the rocky outgrowths on their bodies are the result of their respiratory system at work, processing oxygen into silica. They are not made of rocks to say the least. Therefore your equations are wrong right out of the gate.”

Where’d you get this? Becauuuuse, the *game* says they’re made of stone. So you’re assumption here is flawed. Let’s continue.

“Now, I took at look at Dangoro and estimated his height to be around 14 ft…. but lets go ahead and make him 18 ft. Using that and the fact his width is also massive leads me to believe that he is around twenty to twenty-two times as massive as me. Lets go ahead and up it to thirty times my mass for now. Now, Gorons are indeed more dense and heavy than any human, so I estimate that an single pound of my flesh would equal four pounds of a similarly-sized piece of Goron flesh. Let’s up that estimate to ten pounds for the hell of it. With these figures I come up with this equation -
190 pounds (my weight) X 30 (How many times more massive Dangoro is to me) X 10 (how much more dense he is then me) = 57,000 pounds or 28.5 tons (short ton)”

No. You roughly *eye*balled him, used yourself as a unit of measurement, made poor assumptions, and terrible estimates. Considering that the game itself states Gorons as being made of stone, I’m going to correct you.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/goronscale2.jpg Observe! Link is a bit less than 96 pixels tall, so 96 becomes 6 feet.

Now we can find Dangoro’s diameter. He’s 245 pixels, not counting his armour, and keeping the line well within his edges. 245/96*5=15.3125 feet in diameter.

To determine volume: pi*r^3
R = 1/2 diamter = 7.65625

Volume = 13915.471821443914 ….ect. <–The Goron's volume in cubic feet. Who's awesome? I'm awesome! =D

K, next we apply density. We multiply density by volume. We know he's made of rock, and wearing metal armour, but we'll ignore that, and use a conservative number. Let's sayyyy… 100 lbs per cubic foot. (Less than any stone, and it accounts for air pockets, as he's obviously not a solic sphere.)

This yields: 1 391 547 pounds. For weight in short tons divide by 2000 = 695 short tons.

Now. Aren't you glad I use "200 tons"?

"Thereby leading to Ganon being much weaker than you estimated."

…..Wait, what? Ganon is stronger than Link with the *golden gauntlets*. That was in OoT. I've proven that the gauntlets give Link "strength" not "the power to lift things!", and also that Link can use that strength in combat.

"- Using tabletop balancing mechanics to estimate the strength of Gorechild, when the fiction posted suggests nothing of the kind, is a poor agruement. The Tebletop game itself admits to “nerf-bat” several of their armies and characters to provide a more balanced game. The same thing applies to Kharn, while in fiction his Axe cuts through tank-armor and shields with ease due to the teeth of the Mica dragon, the GW crew had to scale this back as to give other named character’s a chance when facing the second greatest, living, hand-to-hand combatant in WH40K. "

This one is golden. You attempted to dismiss my argument for using the mechanics of WH40K, and then used the mechanics of Zelda games for your own in the same sentance.

"Fallacy # 5 – Da Mastersword is unbreakable! The Mirror shield can stop plasma boltz!

The simple fact it that the Mastersword has a history of facing enemies that can resist the sword to the point that a special strategy is needed to defeat the particular enemy. Gorechild has never faced such a problem, it chews through everything. Even the swords apparent timelessness is simply an example of minor magic that keeps it from rusting and fixing small cracks here and there over time to retain it’s edge and sheen. Once again, the Mastor Sword has never faced something on the scale that Kharn & Gorechild can lay down and there is no evidence that it would survive as it has apparently met materials in it’s own universe that stops it completely. "

The only thing that's stopped the master sword in canon is extremely powerful magic, and even that doesn't work well. The sword is used in many games to destroy magical barriers, one of which *holds up the weight of the entire ocean which covers the world.* Pretty spiffy. Compounding this, it survived a clash between Ganondorf and Link in canon. To be blunt, you could step in front of a freight train, and take less damage than either side of that clash would hand you. The sword was at the epicenter of it, and was not scratched.

As for the mirror shield, Link with the Goron tunic can stand around in lava in temperatures of borderline retarded, and be fine for an extended period of time. The mirrorshield can reflect beams of heat which are dangerous even to Link in said tunic, and it's fine. A flash of plasma doesn't last long enough to melt the shield, or Link.

I should also point out your appeal to novelty fallacy. In fiction higher tech does not immediately mean better. Take for example that arrows in the WH40K verse can pierce Astartes power armour.

"P.S. – I’m having a hard time finding the post in which admin allowed composite Link….. I need some help."

I've only been arguing OoT/MM Link for the last little bit to make things a bit more fair, but I'll find a link to it if I can remember which debate it was anyway.

” …..Wait, did you just claim the winds of a giant cyclone being personally orchestrated by a cyclone diety which sucks up your boat and throws it across the sea if you get too close is nothing but a breeze? Yes, you did. This is where I tell you that you are infact, incorrect, and again, no arrow fired by a human being would ever get through that. ”

- Apparently you have a reading disability. I said there is no evidence of the water spout in question being that strong because if the winds of such a water spout were as strong as to throw you such a distance, it would rip you and the boat to pieces in milli-seconds. That leaves the fact that the water spount in question is magical and leaves the spout open to be rotating slow enough to allow regular arrows to fly in it, albeit with changes in direction, and then activate the main thrust of said rotation to lift you quite slowly up to the spout. Indeed, you don’t even get sucked up until you get to the very center, which is complete Bulls^&* with actual rotating columns of air as you would be affected as soon as you hit the outer wall. Once again, this is hardly proof of any superior speed.

” Considering that the game itself states Gorons as being made of stone, I’m going to correct you. ”
- I find it unusual that none of the related material I’ve read states this. – Namely -

- http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Goron
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe_of_The_Legend_of_Zelda#Goron
- http://www.zeldawiki.org/Goron

- None of which states they are made of rocks.

” …..Wait, what? Ganon is stronger than Link with the *golden gauntlets*. That was in OoT. I’ve proven that the gauntlets give Link “strength” not “the power to lift things!”, and also that Link can use that strength in combat. ”

- No you haven’t, just that becuase it works in certain cases, that it must work in others. You haven’t proven a higher strength (compared to Kharn) for either of the characters as you basing this off that the gauntlets are always working (dubious) and a single occasion in TP, in which you’re basing off that the Goron in question was indeed compareble to rock, which I have serious doubts as a reference to the Goron’s being made of rocks is strangely absent on the internet.

” To determine volume: pi*r^3
R = 1/2 diamter = 7.65625

Volume = 13915.471821443914 ….ect. <–The Goron's volume in cubic feet. Who's awesome? I'm awesome! =D"

- You're not awesome, you fool. The volume of a spherical object is 4/3*pi*r^3. That means the actual volume is 1879 cubic feet. Thereby leading to (with your dubious density) his weight being 187990 pounds or almost 94 short tons.

" This one is golden. You attempted to dismiss my argument for using the mechanics of WH40K, and then used the mechanics of Zelda games for your own in the same sentance. "

- Its funny…… The part you quoted holds no reference to Link at all…. and yet you say the same sentence…….

" The only thing that's stopped the master sword in canon is extremely powerful magic, and even that doesn't work well."

- Skulltula

" As for the mirror shield, Link with the Goron tunic can stand around in lava in temperatures of borderline retarded, and be fine for an extended period of time. The mirrorshield can reflect beams of heat which are dangerous even to Link in said tunic, and it's fine. A flash of plasma doesn't last long enough to melt the shield, or Link. "

- Most lava or magma types will fall in a temperature range of 1300-2400oF (700 to 1300oC). Plasma, by our primitive standards and used in cutting tools, is arouund 25000 degrees F. And that is with out primitive technology. Needless to say, Link has never faced anything on the scale of our simple plasma cutting tools (which are hotter by a factor of 19 with the given estimates). Also, since you never gave a qunatification of descripition of the things that can defeat the red tunic, its fair to say that the plasma gun will melt right through that Mirror shield.

" Take for example that arrows in the WH40K verse can pierce Astartes power armour. "

- How about you break from your trend of being vague and only giving additional infromation when asked, and actually point out these instances?

“I should also point out your appeal to novelty fallacy. In fiction higher tech does not immediately mean better. Take for example that arrows in the WH40K verse can pierce Astartes power armour.”

Those arrows were more than likely “monomolecular”, as everything in 40K is. That or they hit specifically weaker areas of the armour (the eye holes especially seem to be represented in fluff to be made of sugar glass if you take into frequency how often they break.) Still, thats lore for you. Do bear in mind however that the High tech of the future runs into more impressive alloys, huge leaps in tensile strength and more often than not some sort of superhardening refining process.

“i was actually surprised that there was anyone here into philosophy other than me; its not the kind of knowledge people really go in for in my experience. ”

Oh, you’d be surprised. Everyone considered themselves some sort of “weekend philosopher” around here. I think I’m the only one with a degree in it, but everyone does and will join in if the conversation appears and they have their own ideas

Very true Kenny, very true. However, rarely do those pages cite philosophical teachings (And rightly so, Philosophy is one of the few things in life where it is better to decide yourself rather than heed the words of past speakers. The answer is nearly always “It depends”)

…at least untill you find out that the theory you spontaneaously put together in a seminar about plato has evidently been formulated by hegel (who you hadnt heard of at that point) with far greater eloquence and internal consistency some 120-ish years prior XD

” Which means 1 043 660 pounds. 521 tons. I don’t see how you could have made such a huge mistake, either. All you did was add ” *0.75 ” to the equation, and somehow got less than a 6th of the original? GJ. ”

- /facepalm/

Since when does 4/3 equal .75? In bizarro world that might hold true, but not here. Here, I’ll take you through the equation , step-by-step as you seem to be math challenged as well.

1 – r^3 – 7.65625^3 = 448.7953 cubic feet
2 – Ans * pi – 448.7953 * 3.14 = 1409.2172 cubic feet
3 – Ans * 4/3 = 1878.9563 cubic feet

Thereby leading to the significantly lower weight. Please, check your math; this is embrassing to have someone on here making such fundamental mistakes in math.

More later.

Wait, my bedmas was wrong. Forgot the exponent. /facepalm.

I’m still awesome.

Now that you two have stopped bickering on how to find the volume of a sphere, can we get back to the debate?