Hiro time travels and the like often enough to where I wouldn’t consider it against the rules. It isn’t out of the ordinary for him to just pop up and vanish people in time.

Now technically, he could actually go back and just kill the xmen as infants or something of that nature. Parkman has the capabilities to search memories, his power magnified by ando to a greater extent. Then they go back and do the deed.

This is unlikely unless the xmen were perceived as completely evil by Hiro. But all the same, it’s not just completely impossible to get around a solid defense.

Although wolverine’s memories for the most part are blurred and broken up, so not sure they could find much about his origins (unless he has had memory restored in a recent issue) but I don’t know that Parkman could get a mark on Wolverine’s past.. and since they can’t kill him it kind of goes back to the beginning of no team coming out with an absolute 100% victory.

To top that off, Hiro having control over time hardly equates to him reacting first.

The XMen have many years of combat experience. not only that, but the circumstances of their world have progressively made the mutants a lot more ruthless than their hopeful beginnings. They favor swift and desicive action over peacefull resolutions as of late. It is considerably more likely that these battle hardened veterans strike long before Hiro realizes what he is up against. While the Japanese misfit tries to introduce himself, he could be blasted out of this battle altogether by an optic beam, a lightning bolt, a psychic rush, or a teleporting blade.

Also, who all are we putting on the Heroes team?

Hiro, Ando, Matt, Mohinder, Claire, Peter are really the only consistent ‘good guys’ that I can think of, there may be 1 or 2 more that aren’t dead.

That deaf lady that can break stuff with sound would be somewhat helpful in a frozen-time situation i’d think. If anyone knows more people that would be on the Heroes team, let me know because I’m only using like 4 of them lol

Deaf lady is hardly one.

I would consider Noa in there. He may not have powers, but he is more consistent than most others. Strauss could be in as well. I would even put in Mrs. Petreli.

I’d ultimately call this a draw. There is no specific battle stipulations mentioned, so it’s up to us to decide how it plays out.

The Xmen have a chance to sweep this up very briskly, because as the Heroes are all pretty much human Xavier can just do a massive mind blast and clear the field.

On the other end, the Heroes have 1 (potentially 2) time manipulators, and could do exactly what I mentioned, or other things if they put their minds to it to clear the field in their own methods.

The xmen certainly have training and stuff to where one would say experience would prosper, but it’s pretty clear time control, and more specifically powerful time control is a very bitchy thing to deal with.

So since both sides have pretty reasonable methods of dealing with the opposing team, I don’t think it’s out of the question to call it a draw. The Heroe’s side would require more strategy or effort than Xavier or the xmen would need, but stopping time or teleporting people isn’t a drastic step in relation to Mr. Nakamura’s tactics.

Yeah maybe, and it’d be a much clearer winner.

I’m pretty certain Phoenix and possibly Apocolypse could withstand the time business. Phoenix can rip dimensions… not sure exactly what Apocolypse is about, but he seems like he could do damage, don’t know though.

And of course there would be others i’m sure, I don’t have enough information on it. But all the same, universe would pretty easily go to Xmen I would think.

if it was universe battle, quicksilver would catch hiro in his time travel and kill him with ease and then its hopeless for the heroes due to pheonix, and we forget about rogue who can take anyones power and is stronger than any hero.

That broken link shows Cyke blasting a Sentinel.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1437/cyc3sk7.jpg

“The XMen have constant training as a team that could be compared to military special forces around the world. They are taught on a day to day basis on how to maintain a physical and psycological advantage over their oponents in the field, and we are talking about some of the most seasoned XMen there are.”

Right, but this amounts to squat when they don’t move, think or do actions of any kind. Like when time stops.

We don’t have any information on what starts the fight. If the Heroes are in a room and get a fax saying “xmen are out to get you” or if they are all just meeting in the schoolyard for a brawl.

You can’t really just say X-men will get the first strike in, just like I can’t say Hiro will freeze them before X-men have a chance to attack. Both of these things COULD happen though. And once either of them does happen, it’s really lights out for the team on the receiving end.

ohhh and people theres one more hero that i dont think anybody mentioned this guy the haitian that guy can stop everyones powers and of course hed focus it on the x-men meaning well they got no powers it doesnt matter how much training they got powerless x-men vs super powered heroes oh and up above admin said he wasnt sure group univerese whatever either way what about samuel he can move the earth oh and the haitian could make the x-men forget so the heavy hitters would be samuel sylar and the haitian just had to say that huh go heroes

@Sparks

Wow.

Simple physics fail you.

All your fancy tricks are great and all, but you have a one-trick pony here while XMen have numerous. If you remove Hiro from the equasion, the team is done. Its as simple as that.

How do we remove Hiro from the equasion, you ask? Simple. Have one team member with the capabilities to have a SURE first strike. Its not a matter of flipping the coin and hope for the first turn. Its a matter of fact.

Hiro has yet to demonstrate speed in freezing time or teleporting. He actually squints and/or nod the effects taking him anywhere between one to even 5+ seconds depending on his current state.

Now, I am selecting Cyclops for this, but Storm has similar feats. I choose to not use Storm because her premptive strikes are fairly dependant on the weather conditions. A sure hit on Hiro will not be possible on clear skies, so lets stick to the man in charge.

Cyclops have demonstrated to be able to release his beam IN THE MIDDLE of him thinking of it. Yes, he didn’t even finish the thought and the beam was released. His beam travels at the speed of light. Not only that, he has shown that he can hit multiple targest simultaneously either with a massive blast that has a gargantuan area of effect, or by using his subconscious space cognitive ability. This blast has enough power to vaporize Sentinels, and it has been the one thing seen in Marvel so far that van atomize Adamantium when fully unleashed. Then there’s the fact that he has shown incredible shooting speed to take out even Quicksilver…

So, with Cyclops alone, the entire Heroes team will get obliterated before they can THINK what first action to take. This is a SURE first strike.

Granted, this is only true on a scenario where both teams are following the Factpile Debating Rules as they are all present and in plain sight in the battle arena. Any other scenario would probably favor your Hiro arguments.

However, there are still numerous defensive arguments to be had. A good example is Storm’s pressure dome ( http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1374/pressuredome14ac.jpg ). There is also her method of freezing ( http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2235/frozencolossus8kl.jpg ).

“All your fancy tricks are great and all, but you have a one-trick pony here while XMen have numerous. If you remove Hiro from the equasion, the team is done. Its as simple as that.”

Nothing fancy about it. And I think it’s pretty clear I throw my vote to Hiro being the most powerful of the group. I also stated at least twice that the X-men have more flexibility with strategies here, really not necessary to mention, everyone knows x-men has more powerful people as a whole.

Now, Cyclops shooting, or thinking to shoot, or whatever it is you’re proposing Cyclops, or anyone do is situational. He may shoot first, great. He may not, great. It is a potential outcome, may be a great potential. But it is not a certainty.

Xavier could target the Heroes specifically from several hundred miles away and kill them with his mind. Doesn’t mean Heroes can’t stop it. Again, really the only valid players for Heroes side are Hiro and potentially Peter. Right, not a debate, not a disagreement, you don’t need to tell me the Heroes’ strategy is unimpressive or dull, it’s still a valid method of clearing the field.

“So, with Cyclops alone, the entire Heroes team will get obliterated before they can THINK what first action to take. This is a SURE first strike.
Granted, this is only true on a scenario where both teams are following the Factpile Debating Rules as they are all present and in plain sight in the battle arena. Any other scenario would probably favor your Hiro arguments.”

Not really. Like you said, it’s open, both teams know a fight is coming, there is no stipulated time that the fight starts. That still leaves a window for Hiro to pull a time freeze. Cyclops or Storm’s speed is wonderful, but really amounts to squat with an (enhanced) time stop.

You’re mistaking my support for Heroes for a lack of faith in the X-men. Not sure why, seeing as it’s been pretty clearly mentioned they can kill the Heroes much easier.

The only reason the Heroes team requires more explanation, is because the X-men simply have more ways of winning at their disposal.

The Heroes would have to rely on Nakamura and maybe Peter, but that’s just how it is.

As to your continuing bit about the 3 semi-invulnerables, again. I didn’t call it a victory, not sure why you keep bringing it up. I said it prevents the X-men from winning, which it does. I wouldn’t call that needless since it in fact rids them of the 3 forever.

But if there -has- to be a death, it’s not impossible for the Heroes to just kill the 3 in the past.

Wolverine’s past could be hard to find given his age and the like, but all the same. It is not an impossible scenario if you’re specifically looking for a dead team.

Hiro has seen a person moving at the speed of light while he stoped time. CYclops’ eye beam shoots at teh speed of light, it can hit him while he stops time game over.

“We can plainly see how powerfull ANY marvel universe is, so I wanted the Xmen villians and heroes, versus all of the curent heroes charecters, much better fight in my opinion.”

yeh it probably would…xmen would still win

everybody keeps talking about hiro what about the rest of the heroes team let me say it again hiro is one of the big boys and as we all know ando is a very powerful one aswell of course he might get tired but not right away weve all seen him use his powers to juice up the other heroes so im going to tell you all some things that could happen ando could juice matt parkmen to an almighty mega level of course someobody did mention how powerful ando was and how he was able to make the speedster fast enough to travel through time so yeah hes pretty dam strong anyway back to it ando juices matt parkmen matt uses his ability to trap all the x-men within there own minds trust me he did this without ando and it was very effective so with ando he can trap them all within themselves bam x-men are done right then and there how can they fight if there already down for the count and trapped in there own heads oh and there not just traped there like walled in so bam also another thing that could happen he could again using his mind powers he could make the x-men fight each other wolverine stabs cyclops collosus crushes alot more and so on and so on till there all dead so thats another thing the heroes can do oh and also peter could get matt parkmans ability and well double the mega minds double the trouble but either way peter can absorb powers anyones powers hes one of the strong ones if its getting one of his own team mates powers or the x-mens so lets keep going next up is hiro himself remember everybody hes not the only one on the team but he is one of the big boys hiro has the ability to stop time i mean do i need to say more he could do so much while time is stoped he can also travel through time stoping anything that happens to the heroes or getting an advantage from the future or the past just think about it while the fightings going on hiro goes back in time to kill an x-man before they even become x-men since there are not many rules up above there who says that bennet didint give hiro information on the x-men who they used to be were they used to live information that could help hiro go back in time and pick them off so either way hiro in the fight or doing a very important side mission hes gonna cause some pretty good damage so lets move on to suresh the guy with the muscle hed be the one to knock down the x-men take on colossus and deal alot of the heavy damage and if ando is juicing him up well hes gonna be at near hulk strength either way and something tells me if surresh punches cyclops even once hell either knock him out cold or kill him so thats his part lets move on to the hatian ahhh the hatiian the most mysterious and quiet hero of them all he can stop there powers wolverine cant use his claws unless he wants to bleed to death storm cyclops therepowers are all gone and the hatian could just focus his powers on the x-men so tell me what are the x-men going to do powerless against the heroes who are at full power hm nothing but get toasted OH also one little thing i forgot to mention about hiro not about his powers but he does know how to weild a sword and hes pretty darn tough with that sword from what ive seen just had to say that so thats the hatians part also he could make them forget all of them wouldnt know why they were even there so thats his part and it is the heroes side vs the x-men so i have to mention just a few more not gonna mention them all just some of the strong ones i have to mention samuel whoa have you all seen what he can do he can rip your body in half using the dirt he can use rocks like bullets and he can cause earthquakes sink towns im pretty sure he can move mountains and cities of course not yet but its been mentioned that hes gonna get stronger so samuel well he could pretty much rip the x-men to pieces or crush them all or open up the ground and let the earth swallow them either way hes not one to mess with him so lets move on traci strouse has the ability to freeze anyone turn herself to ice and the other ability to turn herself into water while keeping her solid body form so you just cant hurt her oh and she could take on storm storm uses the rain alot traci can freeze the rain and everybody caught in the down pour will be frozen solid including storm herself so thats her part of course all of the heroes could do alot more im just saying some of the things they could do so lets move on to someone who just cant be stoped sylar one of the strongest heroes of them all so many abilities at his disposal including the ability to gain and keep others powers by just touching them so sylar gets all the x-mens powers just saying he could if he wanted he could also use his telekenysis rip some heads off use his power of electricity his power of radiation he also has the ability to freeze aswell he can transform look like whoever he wants he can fly he can melt metal so long wolverine and colossus there goes your metal he can create sonic blast and so many more im not gonna say them all but yeah he literally has more powers then the x-men team combined oh and he can heal he can turn people to solid gold he can hear like superman see the future and well believe it or not hes got more powers but i think i made my point sylar would pretty much kill that team and im sure im forgetting a few but im just gonna mention this last hero ando red lighting he can either use it like regular electricity or he can use it to power up his team to mega levels oh and one last thing i have to mention i said this before but i have to say it again matt parkmen peter and sylar is they all had the mind control ability and lets say they were being powered up by ando (by the way im not saying ando is gonna be like a golden ticket and automatically get them the win just saying he helps thats all if he wasnt there the heroes would still take it they still have sylar samuel and hiro and the hatian so just saying ) back to it matt peter and if he chooses to get it sylar all have the mind control ability and there all juiced up proffesor x cant stop them i know hes super strong but the heroes are all juiced up so there is something that can fight proffesor x ok well thats my post just saying what the heroes side could do there not just pushovers and there not just depending on hiro OR ando hiro and ando are strong but with or without them there all pretty dam strong and i know the x-men team there not pushovers either but the heroes side has more powers and stronger powers so heroes wins and the x-men lose they will of course put up a fight but in the end heroes wins thats my post enjoy

THIS JUST IN! AS OF THE LAST EPISODE OF SEASON FOUR SYLAR IS NOW A HERO!

that is all

every one keeps talking about taking wolverine into the past and junk has anyone forgotten wolverine is over 200 years old regardless of what origin story u choose he would just wait for the day of the battle sneak up on hiro and kill him then rogue colossus and emma kill the rest with emma and jean and the prof disabling parkman and then its a slaughter house victory