“By dumping his own Fiendfyre on Rahl, he’ll get some time to use his biggest water spell and soak the field. Now, I know little of Wizards Fire, but special fires like this are often immune to water. But Voldemort might have a special propert water spell to counter with. And this is the point where the debate gets hard. Voldemort got the biggest arsenal of spells there is, but he has showed very little of it, he may or may not have magical water. So this point is hard to debate. I believe he could find a counter, but as it is impossible to tell I guess i have to say he needs to keep flying if the Wizards fire is used.”

It is hard to debate. Voldemort may have an ability to extinguish Wizard’s Fire, but then again, Darken Rahl may be able to do the same to Fiendfyre. As for biggest arsenal of spells there is, I’d say Darken Rahl can do more things with his magic. Wizards in SoT can get very, very creative. Another argument against Fiendfyre: In Faith of the Fallen, Zeddicus Z’ul Zorander talks about “curved shields”. In an actual battle, a wizard cast Fire powerful enough to go through most shields. But the curved shields rolled the Fire around and sent it right back at its caster. Already hardened for most shields, it went right through the hasty shields the casting wizard set up, and incinerated him and several hundred of his own soldiers. If Darken Rahl did that, Voldemort may not have time to think. At any rate, it would be a nasty surprise, maybe his last surprise…

Mazrim, should we just quit and call it a tie? I feel that the majority of points have been discussed and theres an endless amount of guessing, theory crafting and fact digging that needs to be made to get this debate any further, and since the two of us are most active right now, should we end it for the time being and see if someone brings it back up later? I’m sure AHEM and Shaun will agree to let this one lie for now. Voldemorts scarce info is especially making this discussion hard to get any longer.

“Mazrim, should we just quit and call it a tie? I feel that the majority of points have been discussed and theres an endless amount of guessing, theory crafting and fact digging that needs to be made to get this debate any further, and since the two of us are most active right now, should we end it for the time being and see if someone brings it back up later? I’m sure AHEM and Shaun will agree to let this one lie for now. Voldemorts scarce info is especially making this discussion hard to get any longer.”

Alright, a tie it is. We have discussed most of the information that can be taken from the books, which is not much for Voldemort and Darken Rahl. And, as much as I like Darken Rahl, Voldemort definetely has a chance. And, since no one else seems to be posting, we could quit this for now. Of course, if someone else brings up a new point, I am more than ready to continue…

One last thing:

Thanks for a good debate Mazrim. Long debates have a habit of ending with the sides yelling at each other, or one side being douches while the other tries to get a point through. And as I cannot remember any swearing by any of the main contributors in this debate, and you being the main man for Rahl, I need to thank you. These debates are nice to participate in, and people who only argues rather than shout are the stuff an enjoyable debate is made of. Thanks.

See you around.

Hey! Who ended the debate without me?! This battle is not over yet.

“I have been of the opinion that Rahl can get rid of Fiendfyre all along, after AHEM stated he has some manipulation of fire.”

Darken Rahl, like other SoT wizards, seems to have control over heat energy in general. The way he creates Wizard’s Fire in the first place is by drawing heat from the area around him, focusing it into flames, and then juicing it up with his magic.

If fire manipulation fails, Rahl can always resort to Subtractive Magic. That might help in clearing the battlefield if it becomes too chaotic.

“He took control of England, but I do not think the books gave any sign of his prescence in America, or Europe, or Africa or anywhere. Darken Rahl, on the other hand, did come very close to ruling the entire world, and probably would have if not for Richard.”

Actually, Rahl came close to taking over the New World. He never got a foothold in the Old World, which made up the majority of the SoT world.(And it is implied that there are further lands outside the New and Old Worlds, just as there are lands in our world that go beyond the continent a person lives on.) The landmass that Rahl almost conquered would probably be comparable to conquering Europe in our world.

“SO, new tactic. Transfiguration. Change the shield into a bomb and BOOM. Will probably NOT work, but it could be fun if it could.”

Wizards in SoT also have transfiguration, including ones much weaker than Darken Rahl. Giller, for example, was able to turn a man(Brophy) into a wolf with only Additive Magic. Darken Rahl will surely have taken precautions against his body being morphed mid-battle, assuming Transfiguration is even a viable combat option in HP, though I doubt it on the grounds that it has never been utilized for such before.

“In SoT, no one stands a chance against Darken Rahl. Zeddicus, the second most powerful wizard, does not dare attack him, Shota is also scared stiff of him, Richard cannot use the Sword of Truth against him, Kahlan cannot Confess him…the list goes on.”

Darken Rahl is not the most powerful character in SoT, though he is in “Wizard’s First Rule”, later characters introduced are more powerful than he is. Richard, when he came into his gift, was said to have powers that “even Darken Rahl could only dream of”(The Pillars of Creation), and Nicholas the Slide(Naked Empire) had every power Rahl had as well as a few of his own. In fact, Nicci could probably take him down in an even combat scenario, as she is much more experienced than he is and has the powers of both a wizard and a sorceress, as well as the same powers that Rahl received from the Keeper.

The main reason why no one dared to face Rahl was because he had the protection of Orden, which more or less rendered him immune to all forms of harm for the one year he had to seek the three boxes. Without that protection, the Sword of Truth would have worked just fine against him, though purely Additive sources of magic such as Zedd’s wizardry and Kahlan’s(normal) Confession would still have been mostly worthless.

“Seeing as your post sadly didn’t bring up anything changing the fight, I still think it was a good idea to let it lie for now.”

On the contrary, if we figure the Power of Orden into this, it could very well change everything.

When he appeared in the first book, Darken was protected by Orden. This was a unique protection in that it rendered him immune to all forms of harm and he didn’t have to use any of his own magic to use it. Up till now we’ve been assuming Rahl will be relying on his own shields for defense. If we figure Rahl to still be protected by the magic of Orden in this fight, then he could probably tank Voldemort’s attacks indefinitely without sacrificing any of his own power.

This could be a game changer, because if Voldemort can’t outlast Rahl and his attacks keep failing, he would eventually be brought down by a lucky hit, if nothing else.

I think I need to revise my table of advantages:

Rahl:

*Stronger shields
*May have the protection of the magic of Orden
*Greater control over magical fire
*Does not need a wand to use his full power
*Highly resistant or immune to all forms of non-destructive magic
*Immune to mental domination and telepathy
*Wields Subtractive Magic
*Can manipulate the air

Voldemort:

*Greater mobility, thanks to flight and apparation
*Can turn invisible
*Fiendfyre can cover the battlefield
*Does not grow tired from using magic over time.
*Gains the advantage in a chaotic scenario via rapid attacks
*Killing Curse
*Might be able to slow down time

If we assume that he has the protection of Orden there is nothing to it. Voldemort would either be taken out quickly (the best way to end him) or simply leave if it doesn’t work. That means Rahl will win. But I was under the impression that Rahl used his time and was last seen without this protection. Voldemort is dead, but if we use him as he was at the moment of death, he was as good as ever.

There is nothing extra now barring

Orden = Rahl
No Orden = Random

“If we assume that he has the protection of Orden there is nothing to it. Voldemort would either be taken out quickly (the best way to end him) or simply leave if it doesn’t work. That means Rahl will win. But I was under the impression that Rahl used his time and was last seen without this protection. Voldemort is dead, but if we use him as he was at the moment of death, he was as good as ever.”

Rahl died before his time ended, when he opened the wrong box. That’s how Orden works: you get the protection for one year, and then you either get the full power and become invincible or you die when your time runs out. In the moments before he was killed, he still possessed the protection of Orden. After losing the protection, he was only seen (briefly) as a spirit who could no longer interact with the mortal world except in very limited ways.

well it depends do we want a match, where we debate the skills and powers, or do we want a match were one is invicible and there is nothing that can be done about it.

so its rahl with orden match ends here
or its rahl without ordern match continues on

“One thing what is Orden? Is it active enough to be considered outside help, or a power placed in him that works automatically?”

Rahl entered the quest to find and open the Boxes of Orden. Upon embarking on this journey, he was given a small fraction of the power he would wield if he opened the correct box. After this, he permanently had an inseparable aura of “protection” around himself for the purpose of keeping him alive until he had a chance to open a box, or until one year passed. He doesn’t need to maintain or renew it in any special way, though it comes with the terms of only lasting for one year, upon which he is considered to have failed and Orden claims his life. So, I would say it’s more of a power that’s placed in him that works automatically, since Orden isn’t really a living thing but rather a vast magical power that can be harnessed by anyone.

“wait to decide about orden, what is his CURRENT form? thats is what we are using, does he has\ve it now?”

Current Rahl is DEAD. He opened the wrong Box of Orden, and thus forfeited his life to Orden and died. In his last moments, he still had the protection of the magic. If we go by the most strict incarnation of “current form” then he’s nothing more than a soul in the Underworld, same as Voldemort. If we use his latest LIVING form, he still has the protection of Orden.

Okay, new fight. Voldemorts soul vs Rahls soul. GO.

But at that time he wasn’t dead. These days he is a wrecked baby crying in an enormous white hall.

your right he is even weaker, wow rahl going to kick his ghost ass.

if they can perhaps they will try to fuse, so voldemort will have more form and
darken rahl may learn enough to resurrect, and in turn reconquer all of SoT universe,
perhaps this a debate for another day.

Yeah, right. Voldemort is in no condition to do anything, and he loathed the idea of being reliant on something else so much he refused to get addicted to the life elixir of the philosophers stone, he needed it only to get form.

If he cannot stand being reliant on such stuff, fusing with another being will never happen.

voldemort did join with prof quinn in order to gain the strength, in order to create a new body, and since he is the weakest state he has ever been in, he really doesnt have the option
to refuse any help at this stage.

but imagine how unstoppable Darken Rahl would be with the power of voldemort(im
going with rahl being the dominant part since he is the most while out either of them) , but no need
for a wand and almost limitless energy to perform this spells.

(the most whole out either of them)is what i meant

@shaun
ya i was just reiterating the point

“@shaun
ya i was just reiterating the point”

no mate that wasnt directed at you, i made a mistake and was trying to correct it, everything was bad timing soz if i caused offence.

“I would rather get shot to death than getting shot to death and then having my corpse empower the guy I hate most in the world.”

this is not completly correct analogy, since voldemort is not just giving rahl his power dooming himself, he is taking an extremly long shot to regaining his body and power perhaps more than he had to began with, something he would do almost anything to get.

and since its voldemorts knowledge and skill that is their only hope to return, he maybe more likely to help, hoping he could screw rahl over at a later date.

@mazrim
i know aint it great? lol

Thanks. One day I’ll have as many as you do…

i havent been on the site all that long myself, and gained a lot of stars so im sure
you will do it in no time.

Thanks for the encouragement…I’ll keep on posting!

As for Darken Rahl joining up with Voldemort as spirits, this is unlikely. You see, Darken Rahl still retains some of his magical powers as a wraith. He managed to incinerate several hundred of his former soldiers with Wizard’s Fire, and if not for a startling sacrifice would have killed Richard Rahl. Also, a good chunk of his servants and soldiers might still be convinced to follow him. In a fight between Rahl and Voldemort as spirits, Rahl would win, and as for them joining up, the only reason I can see Rahl doing that is to try and learn something or get something from Voldemort…

*Blasted by the other Rahl, Richard.

“You see, Darken Rahl still retains some of his magical powers as a wraith. He managed to incinerate several hundred of his former soldiers with Wizard’s Fire, and if not for a startling sacrifice would have killed Richard Rahl.”

Darken Rahl was not wielding the magic that killed the D’Harans himself. He was controlling a Sister of the Dark, Sister Odette, who happened to have all the powers of a wizard and also could command Subtractive Magic like Rahl himself could. The rest of the carnage was mostly caused by Rahl influencing his former officers and lieutenants to attack.

“However, he dies again, and I do not think he escapes the Underworld a third time, though he STILL manages to almost kill Richard and cause the death of thousands upon thousands from the Underworld in Temple of the Winds….”

After Temple of the Winds, Darken was banished into the pits of the Underworld by Richard Rahl(for the third time) using very powerful Subtractive Magic, effectively sealed from interacting with the world of life forever. After that banishment, he was never seen again. Aside from a slight ability to manipulate and possess, he was effectively powerless, and his third banishment by Richard pretty much sealed that.

“So, even as a spirit, Rahl managed to unleash massive chaos and death, perhaps accidentially, perhaps not…”

Yes, it was part of the whole manipulative idea he had going on to make up for his lost powers.

I guess we’ve all reached a clear verdict, then.

Orden-shielded Rahl vs. Lord Voldemort: Rahl tanks Voldemort indefinitely, until he either brings the Dark Lord down or Voldemort is forced to flee the battlefield and thus forfeit the match.

Normal Rahl vs. Lord Voldemort: A long battle with many advantages and disadvantages in both sides that is ultimately anybody’s game.

Rahl’s ghost vs. Voldemort’s ghost: An endless stalemate, possibly ending with the two joining forces to try to return to the world of life.

Sounds like my dreams when I was reading Wizard’s First Rule. I saw a friend as a Mord-Sith trying to snatch a child and bring her to the temple and I was fighting them off with multicolored sticks…and somehow I won…

“I think all of this debating Darken Rahl’s powers is having a weird influence on me. Last night I dreamed that he harnessed the power of Orden and used it to battle the Silver Surfer. Weird, I know.”

Can it be? Can AHEM, the stauch opponent of random comments, have just made a random comment himself?

How the mighty have fallen. You’d should give up a dozen or so stars for shame.

Um, I’ve never seen harry potter or read it, but I figure a bolt of subtractive ends the match right there. when in doubt, use subtractive.

“This is more a question, since the most recent Rahl is technicly a wraith of sorts would he still be effected by a spell like the AV? I have only read First Rule completely and still in the process of Stone of Tears so I’m unsure how Rahl interacts with actually living things. I do know the AV does not effect ghosts and I don’t think it effects things like Dementors, which seems to be what Rahl has become.”

Rahl is not currently a wraith. He was a wraith-like being for a short time, but he was again banished from the world of life and is currently sitting in a dark corner in the Underworld, completely powerless to affect the mortal world in any way. If we’re going by absolute current incarnations, Voldemort is in the same situation.