Toph Vs Vin

Toph Vs Vin

Suggested by Aelfinn

Here we have Toph (Avatar) squaring off against Vin (Mistborn).

The fight takes place on a large metal arena with a diameter of 5 miles.

There are a large assortment of metal instruments, large and small, nearby.

The instruments are any that can be thought of, including blades.

Vin has a standard amount of all metals.

However, the fight takes place in two stages: one with atium and one without.

Who wins?

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130 Comments on "Toph Vs Vin"

  1. Macross Fallstar September 16, 2013 at 8:33 am -      #1

    I have minimal knowledge of both but im going with Toph on this one.

  2. Sauroposeidon September 16, 2013 at 8:45 am -      #2

    Didn’t we just have an Avatar match like a week or two ago?

  3. GuardianAngel1911 September 16, 2013 at 8:48 am -      #3

    @Sauro
    it was a universe vs 1 entity match on August 31.
    -
    As to the match I’ll support Toph

  4. StealthRanger September 16, 2013 at 8:51 am -      #4

    “Didn’t we just have an Avatar match like a week or two ago?”
    -
    Yeah, the one with Golbez in it

  5. Sauroposeidon September 16, 2013 at 10:27 am -      #5

    Yeah.. there’s so much stuff out there that we shouldn’t be repeating franchises with in the same week or two. Star Wars has two, and Avatar has two. While I didn’t care for pretty much every match except for the Endor and Golbez one, I still LIKE seeing the variety of character and franchise match ups. I get sick of seeing the same franchises getting sometimes a huge glut of matches posted. This obviously is the low end but I am getting tired of it. It’s especially bad when it’s the same character.. over.. and over.. and over again, like Harry Dresden. I’ve noticed when it does happen it’s usually a niche, not very popular franchise too, such as Warhammer/40k or Harry Dresden. It’s rarely well known IP with a wealth of material (like Star Wars and Star Trek).
    -
    I know it may seem petty to get on this when, again, it’s only been two franchise repeats.. but I do hope Admin reads this anyways. For some of us, this site may actually be the highlight of our day. Currently, I wake up, go to work, come home, check factpile, eat dinner, go to bed. Repeat, repeat, repeat. except on days where I close shop like today. So seeing ANOTHER Avatar match, even though I fucking love Avatar, so soon after the last, kind of sucks. =/
    -
    I imagine there’s A LOT of match suggestions, and sure some of them might suck (like most of mine do) but I would like to see a bit more variety. -
    Ok, getting off my pedestal now.

  6. Aelfinn September 16, 2013 at 10:46 am -      #6

    Come at me, I suggested this a while ago. And really, two Avatar matches in a week gets under your skin?
    -
    Anyway, regarding this fight, Vin is a lot more agile than Toph, but Toph has more AoE attacks. Vin has excellent precog with atium, but can she get to Toph?

  7. Shadow-Knight September 16, 2013 at 10:48 am -      #7

    I am on Toph’s side for now. She is a badass
    This clip shows some of what she can do earth bending, and she does know how to metal bend as well

  8. Shadow-Knight September 16, 2013 at 11:05 am -      #8

    At 1:40 and near the end, it shows some of her metal bending(minor feats), ripping it open with her bare hands and sending large chunks of it flying.

  9. Shadow-Knight September 16, 2013 at 11:19 am -      #9

    Offensive and Defensive earth bending

  10. Watchdog Lowk September 16, 2013 at 11:24 am -      #10
  11. Shadow-Knight September 16, 2013 at 11:42 am -      #11

    4:25 – 4:54 in the third video I posted shows her using metal bending, she forms it into armor for herself , and then metal bends objects in the room to beat some fire nation soldiers

  12. Sauroposeidon September 16, 2013 at 11:52 am -      #12

    “Come at me, I suggested this a while ago. And really, two Avatar matches in a week gets under your skin?”
    -
    She was just in a match the other week in that Golbez match.
    -
    I’m not ripping on the match, just how we have such a wide variety of characters to choose from and we tend to get character repeats.

  13. Bibliophage September 16, 2013 at 11:57 am -      #13

    As much as I love Toph, no one seems to give Vin enough credit. Even without accounting for iron and steel Vin is incredibly agile; with them she never has to touch the ground. Almost all of Toph’s precision would be gone the moment Vin figured out how she sees.
    In any event, both of them would be unaccustomed to fighting anyone so small.

  14. Shadow-Knight September 16, 2013 at 12:03 pm -      #14

    Toph doesn’t JUST use her earth radar to see vibrations, she also uses her hearing. In one of the clips I posted, it showed a part with her hearing an attack coming and dodging it.

  15. Shadow-Knight September 16, 2013 at 12:05 pm -      #15

    I do; however, agree that Vin does not get as much attention as others.

  16. admin September 16, 2013 at 12:11 pm -      #16

    @Sauroposeidon – Character/Franchise repeats are of my making. Traffic spikes come when we have one match that is popular and when seen on other traffic sending sites (like reddit/stumbleupon) and is why you will see this happen.

  17. Hellion Nick September 16, 2013 at 12:22 pm -      #17

    Toph has the advantage since she does indeed sonar through earth, metal and even manages to pull some excellent hearing.
    -
    For a hearing example: the part where she metalbends the drawbridge between two ships away, she first overheard a whisper between the fire nation soldiers who wanted to go back to their ship.
    -
    My one real question considering Vin though, how fast is her control/bending or whatever she can do with the metal in the arena?
    From what i understand both contestants are capeble of controlling it in their way, but I only know how fast Toph is when bending metal.
    -
    Also regarding Toph, is this Toph during her travels with Aang or Toph at her peak as head of the metalbending policeforce?

  18. Shadow-Knight September 16, 2013 at 12:26 pm -      #18

    “Also regarding Toph, is this Toph during her travels with Aang or Toph at her peak as head of the metalbending policeforce?”

    Good question, I only gave examples from Avatar: TLAB because Its the only version I kind of know. Never read any book/comics, nor have I watched kora.

  19. Aelfinn September 16, 2013 at 12:38 pm -      #19

    I would say Toph is at her peak as head of the metalbending police, but as far as I know her feats don’t massively scale up when that happens.

  20. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2013 at 12:42 pm -      #20

    “The fight takes place on a large metal arena with a diameter of 5 miles.
    -
    There are a large assortment of metal instruments, large and small, nearby.
    -
    The instruments are any that can be thought of, including blades. ”
    -
    OK……. Anyone else not seeing “oh, and there’s some dirt and rocks in the corner over there”?
    -
    …Anyway, if she actually has some rocks to work with, Toph might have a chance, but… Vs Vin’s ability to riot and sooth emotions…… Well, it might help if the “large metal arena with a diameter of 5 miles”c had a roof, and no lighting. :lol:

  21. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2013 at 12:45 pm -      #21

    And though it’s probably already been said, I’d point out that Vin’s “flying” is her pushing herself up on a tripod of steel pushes, and as such would still be putting out stuff for Toph to “see”.

  22. Dassadec September 16, 2013 at 12:48 pm -      #22

    Sorry guys, Toph is screwed royally, vin is far too mobile and fast with her abilities for Toph to even touch,
    -
    Tophs sonar won’t help her here too much because Vin won’t be touching the ground for very Long in this fight Mistborn tend to spiderman around while fighting

  23. Bibliophage September 16, 2013 at 12:49 pm -      #23

    What I said was that Vin could remove almost all of Toph’s precision by staying off the ground, not that she could be untouchable. Also, given that the arena is made entirely of metal, Toph won’t have any actual earth to work with.

  24. Dassadec September 16, 2013 at 12:55 pm -      #24

    Once again, without specifying incarnation Vin is techincally Preservation and before that she’s buffed with Mist powered abilities. Current incarnation an all that makes vin ridiculous. Best to get someone to specify at the very least Pre Preservation Vin or you should have put her against the Verse.

  25. Watchdog Lowk September 16, 2013 at 1:04 pm -      #25

    Toph gotten pretty good using her hearing to pinpointing stuff in the air
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Ava/6afc3546143bb1fc652db4f7acd8fb43b9573a863ee6ec48c82f5d41.jpg
    -
    Also if Vin has metal on her Toph should be able to sense her like how she seems to be able to do for stuff like earth when it’s in the air.

  26. Watchdog Lowk September 16, 2013 at 1:08 pm -      #26

    “hearing to pinpointing”
    -
    to Pinpoint
    ===
    Another dodging feat for Toph
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Ava/Tophdodgeprojectile2.jpg
    ===
    Is there earth under the arena cause toph should be able to bust through it using metalbending.
    ===
    How long can Vin stay in the air?

  27. Bibliophage September 16, 2013 at 1:11 pm -      #27

    She can remain in the air indefinitely, as long as she has steel in her belly.

  28. Dassadec September 16, 2013 at 1:15 pm -      #28

    @ lowk
    Vin uses no metal except her vials. Her weapons and gear are crafted for fighting other Mistborn/ metal manipulators. Toph might bend vin’s vials away but if this is Mistpowered Vin it doesn’t matter.
    To clarify, the only metals Vin carries are flakes in vials she drinks in battle to replenish her powers. She “Burns” the metals in her stomach to power her abilities.

  29. Watchdog Lowk September 16, 2013 at 1:17 pm -      #29

    “She can remain in the air indefinitely, as long as she has steel in her belly.”
    -
    Is this literal or something like “fire in your belly” type of thing?
    ===
    Toph getting her own comic series revolving around how she becomes police chief and other republic city so we might be getting more metalbending feats for her.

  30. Watchdog Lowk September 16, 2013 at 1:20 pm -      #30

    aaaaand looking it up Tophs comics are several months away. Nevermind.”
    ===
    “To clarify, the only metals Vin carries are flakes in vials she drinks in battle to replenish her powers. She “Burns” the metals in her stomach to power her abilities.”
    -
    Ah so literal. Then shouldn’t Toph still be able to track because of that stuff?

  31. Commander Cross September 16, 2013 at 1:25 pm -      #31

    On #5

    That one’s frankly your fault.

    Try Tenchi Muyo vs Star Wars-related matches* and Maybe you’ll be onto something, aside from the concern you already sent in.

    I officially lost count for how many times I may have tried to bring in some of Dresden’s allies or enemies on board to bring some variety in there, only for how most of the time the attempts backfire.

    @Everyone else

    Toph taught her kid how to metalbend as we’ve seen her kid in The Legend of Korra, yes?
    I say this is anyone’s game for now until further notice arrives.

    1.) (As long as its not full-blown universal warfare)

  32. Watchdog Lowk September 16, 2013 at 2:05 pm -      #32

    Anyone else think Lin could’ve been a good idea for instead of Toph? Maybe in a city.

  33. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2013 at 2:16 pm -      #33

    @Watchdog Lowk
    “Anyone else think Lin could’ve been a good idea for instead of Toph? Maybe in a city.”
    -
    Biggest problem with Toph, is the OP doesn’t giver her any earth to work with, and though metalbending is good, it doesn’t tend to be “large scale” enough to deal with Vin jumping all over the place.
    -
    ….That, and the fact that Vin can pretty much turn Toph’s will “off” at will.
    -
    Yeah…. Change it to “they happen to meet in a forest/city”, and don’t give Vin any of the flaring metal(whose name I forget), and this might just be a fight(hell, it would be near turning it to a stomp the other way).

  34. Bibliophage September 16, 2013 at 2:22 pm -      #34

    Lin Beifong Vs. Vin in a city with skyscrapers? Pretty much an ideal match, I’d say.

    Also, Vin is pretty much immune to any metal projectile, barring an unexpected attack, because she can Push them away.

  35. Dassadec September 16, 2013 at 2:42 pm -      #35

    “Ah so literal. Then shouldn’t Toph still be able to track because of that stuff?”
    -
    I would think so, but that’s why we need Aelfinn to set Vins incarnation, because even before Vin becomes Preservation( a god) she gains the ability to burn Mist( an integral part of her world) around her to power her abilities, this removing the need for actual metals.
    If Toph can’t track vin it’s gonna be impossible to win, so I’d nominate even pre mist-powered Vin as an incarnation.
    -
    A question, does Toph wear any metals? Cause a duralumin Push or pull will really mess up her day if so.
    Duralumin allows a Mistborn to instantly burn up thier chosen metal reserve for a instant burst of the effect,
    Ex: if Vin burned her soothing or’rageing”( iirc) metal with Duralumin she could alter Tophs emotions in a critical moment to make Toph either mindlessly rage or cry for a moment
    -
    I guess I’ll give a list of the most basic Mistborn powers, a Mistborn has access to the following abilities, Duralumin may not be in the match though, still waiting on aelfinn to set the match conditions but here you go
    -
    Steel

    Coinshots have the ability to burn Steel, which allows them to “Push” on nearby metals. This can allow them to make metallic objects that weigh less than they do to fly through the air away from them (using coins, for instance, as weapons). For metallic objects which weigh more than they do, this can cause them to be pushed away from the object. It was generally assumed that a Coinshot could not Push on metals that pierce or are otherwise contained in the body of another Allomancer (e.g., ingested metals), however it can be achieved by an exceedingly powerful Allomancer.
    -
    Iron

    Lurchers have the ability to burn Iron, which allows them to Pull on nearby metals. This can allow them to make metallic objects that weigh less than they do to fly through the air toward them. For metallic objects which weigh more than they do, this can cause them to be pulled toward the object. It was generally assumed that a Lurcher could not Pull on metals that pierce or are otherwise contained in the body of another Allomancer (e.g., ingested metals), however it can be achieved by an exceedingly powerful Allomancer.
    -
    Tin

    Tineyes have the ability to burn Tin, which allows them to enhance all five of their senses. Tineyes are often used as lookouts and scouts because they can see in near-darkness. A major flaw of burning is that if a sudden loud noise or bright light appears it can render a Tineye stunned for a short time. Tin also gives mental “stability” allowing the person to utilize all of the information that it provides and allowing them to assess a battle situation quicker than a normal person. The increase given compares in no way to the mental increase given by atium.

    Pewter

    Pewterarms, or Thugs, have the ability to burn Pewter, which allows them to greatly enhance their physical capabilities. While burning pewter, a Thug can fight or perform physical labor longer than any normal person, and is also many times stronger than his or her normal self. This enhanced strength also allows a Thug to shrug off wounds that would kill or incapacitate a normal person. Pewter-burning also provides a Thug with an increased sense of balance and vastly increased speed and dexterity. A Thug performing a “pewter drag” can run for many hours at speeds up to approximately that of a galloping horse. This is extremely draining on the Allomancer’s body and will require the Allomancer to burn pewter after completing the pewter drag itself, just to keep the person’s body from collapsing in near-death exhaustion.

    One danger for a Thug is when the Thug carrying something that he or she normally could not carry and he or she runs out of pewter to burn, the object he or she is carrying will crush him or her, causing serious injury. Another danger is that a Thug who shrugged off earlier wounds could succumb to said wounds when he or she runs out of pewter to burn.
    -
    Bronze

    Seekers have the ability to burn Bronze, which allows them to determine if someone is using Allomancy in the immediate area. With practice, an Allomancer can determine the location of the other Allomancer, which metal the other Allomancer is burning, and to what extent the other Allomancer is burning his or her metal. An extremely powerful Allomancer can penetrate the copperclouds of other weaker Allomancers.
    -
    Copper

    Copperclouds[1], or Smokers, have the ability to burn Copper, which allows them to hide themselves and others from “Seekers” by dampening allomantic vibrations caused by burning metals. The area hidden by a smoker is known as a coppercloud (hence the name). In strike teams, Smokers are extremely helpful to keep from being caught by a Seeker, or a Mistborn burning Bronze. Exceedingly powerful Mistborn or Seekers can pierce copperclouds and feel the dampened allomantic vibrations. The only known cases are Vin as she was piericed with a Bronze hemalurgic spike in the shape of an earing and a woman also chosen as Preservation’s heir. And the Steel Inquisitors because they were usually seekers and had a Bronze hemalurgic spike.
    -
    Zinc

    Rioters have the ability to burn Zinc, which allows them to inflame the emotions of those nearby. This can be used to incite riots(hence the name) or to enhance any emotion of the target. A Rioter can affect a single person or all the individuals in a particular area.
    -
    Brass

    Soothers have the ability to burn Brass, which allows them to soothe or guide emotions in a particular direction. A Soother can affect a single person or all the individuals in a particular area.

  36. Epicazeroth September 16, 2013 at 2:43 pm -      #36

    1) Does Vin have vials and how many?
    -
    2) “large metal arena”
    Seriously? Toph is a metal bender.

  37. Dassadec September 16, 2013 at 2:45 pm -      #37

    I honestly think Vin vs Spiderman would be an excellent fight maybe movie spidey, not sure vin can handle spiderock

  38. Epicazeroth September 16, 2013 at 2:48 pm -      #38

    Would any of Vin’s non-duraluminum-enhanced powers even be useful against Toph?

  39. Dassadec September 16, 2013 at 2:54 pm -      #39

    @epicazeroth
    -
    A Mistborn will typically carry 3-5 vials of each metal, this is usually enough for a whole night’s activities.
    -
    Like I said though, a neutral arena will incorporate Mist and vin can’t power her abilities with said Mist currently( before she became Preservation and if we go there its not even up for debate lol)

  40. Epicazeroth September 16, 2013 at 2:56 pm -      #40

    @Bibliophage: Actualy, she can’t Push them away. She can only Push with her own weight/strength. On the other hand, benders seem to be able to push and pull with far more power than their own strength.

  41. Bibliophage September 16, 2013 at 2:59 pm -      #41

    “Would any of Vin’s non-duraluminum-enhanced powers even be useful against Toph?”
    -
    Small pieces of high velocity metal are always dangerous, and steel has turned coins into bullet-comparable projectiles.
    Pewter makes Vin stronger than nine foot tall ogre things, and able to ignore most injury.
    -
    with rioting to keep Toph from being properly calm and centered, Vin has almost nothing to fear from Toph’s offense. It would still be a difficult thing for Vin to land a meaningful hit on Toph though, even though the damage threshold is far lower.

  42. Bibliophage September 16, 2013 at 3:02 pm -      #42

    @Epicazeroth: any fairly small projectile she could knock away with a Push, given that benders are throwing the object, not continuously propelling it. A large projectile she could push off OF.

  43. Epicazeroth September 16, 2013 at 3:02 pm -      #43

    Yes, but that doesn’t really matter if Vin is encased in metal.

  44. Dassadec September 16, 2013 at 3:05 pm -      #44

    Can Toph even metal end at a range?

  45. Bibliophage September 16, 2013 at 3:09 pm -      #45

    Metalbending, as we’ve seen it, doesn’t work at long range. Toph had to physically grab the metal she was bending in the show. Until the tentacle whips showed up in LoK metalbending was mostly a matter of being able to mold metal as if it were clay. Long story short, Toph can’t wrap Vin in metal unless Vin sits still for it.

  46. Aelfinn September 16, 2013 at 3:18 pm -      #46

    Vin is pre-Mist-using. I felt I had implied that when I said Vin had a “standard amount of all metals”. I mean, Mist-using Vin existed for about a chapter, then she became a planet-moving God.
    -
    “Biggest problem with Toph, is the OP doesn’t giver her any earth to work with,”
    -
    I said nothing about not pulling earth into the fight. From the edge of the arena or underneath, it’s still fair game. Hell, if Toph wants to she could momentarily leave to gather some. During the fight, of course, so she’d have to not die during that, but it’s still an option. I’m not a big fan of ring-out = win except for extreme cases such as dimensional banishment or space-punch.
    -
    I’d like to bring up that Toph’s metal-bending is stronger than Vin’s standard metal-pushing. It would take more than the weight of a small woman to do the things Toph did to metal.

  47. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2013 at 3:19 pm -      #47

    @Bibliophage
    “Metalbending, as we’ve seen it, doesn’t work at long range. Toph had to physically grab the metal she was bending in the show.”
    -
    I’d point you towards the crowd control barriers the metalbending police uses, their clearly not touching them at the time.

  48. Epicazeroth September 16, 2013 at 3:22 pm -      #48

    Well, seeing as how Toph founded the police force, and they clearly learned metal-bending from somewhere, I’d say she made all the techniques. Because, really it’s only been a generation, so who else would’ve been able to improve the art?

  49. Bibliophage September 16, 2013 at 3:25 pm -      #49

    @Shgon: haven’t watched LoK very recently, forgot about that.
    -
    Also, as far as pure force goes bending is much stronger than allomancy for moving metal (or anything else), But a coinshot can launch projectiles faster than anything we’ve seen in Avatar. The only bending that approaches that kind projectile speed was when Aang was fighting the Firelord and used machine gun rocks.

  50. Shadow-Knight September 16, 2013 at 3:26 pm -      #50

    Could we change a couple of things, nothing major just
    =
    -change the setting to make the room/stadium half metal & half earth (dirt and rocks)
    =
    and
    =
    -restrict the “turn off will to fight” mental fu*#ery.

    ————-
    This way we can actually debate a fight without giving Toph next to nothing to work with.

  51. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2013 at 3:32 pm -      #51

    @Aelfinn
    “I’d like to bring up that Toph’s metal-bending is stronger than Vin’s standard metal-pushing. It would take more than the weight of a small woman to do the things Toph did to metal.”
    -
    A good point… One that basically means that there’s rather little that Vin can “do” to Toph is Toph gets into metal armor, as every twitch of it would be controlled by her Bending.

  52. Watchdog Lowk September 16, 2013 at 3:34 pm -      #52

    “Metalbending, as we’ve seen it, doesn’t work at long range. Toph had to physically grab the metal she was bending in the show.”
    -
    I’d point you towards the crowd control barriers the metalbending police uses, their clearly not touching them at the time.”
    -
    For a more toph related feat she started teaching metal benders to move coins around, She rapped a weapon on the other side of the room around a guys head, loosened screw in tanks as she passed them, and wrapped a guy up in tank treads without touching them.
    ===
    “Well, seeing as how Toph founded the police force, and they clearly learned metal-bending from somewhere, I’d say she made all the techniques. Because, really it’s only been a generation, so who else would’ve been able to improve the art?”
    -
    Around March we might find out.

  53. Epicazeroth September 16, 2013 at 3:36 pm -      #53

    She needs duraluminum to actually completely get rid of emotions.
    -
    Also, have you seen earth, water, and fire benders shoot projectiles that go off the screen in a fraction of a second? There’s a good example in the title sequence.

  54. Aelfinn September 16, 2013 at 3:37 pm -      #54

    “This way we can actually debate a fight without giving Toph next to nothing to work with.”
    -
    I don’t consider a metal arena filled with many metal instruments “next to nothing”. You know, because Toph invented metal-bending. She can destroy the arena if she wants to and bring earth into it if she wants. It’s already past 50 posts, so I’m not sure if I can change it, but I didn’t feel like I was being unfair.
    -
    “restrict the “turn off will to fight” mental fu*#ery.”
    -
    Vin doesn’t “turn off the will to fight”, she just messes with emotions. This can be dramatic if she uses a duralumin-fueled push, but she often does not do so in combat situations. If she could, it would have been quite helpful throughout the series. Toph’s emotions maybe being messed with is just something she’s gonna have to deal with. It’s a part of Vin’s power-set.

  55. Shadow-Knight September 16, 2013 at 3:38 pm -      #55

    Sorry, the top part of my last comment was already addressed in post # 46, it hadn’t loaded when I posted. But I must still ask if we can restrict the “turn off will to fight” power because .

  56. Watchdog Lowk September 16, 2013 at 3:42 pm -      #56

    I think Toph was the reason behind the the wire things since they actually show she uses them in the flashback. However I am kind of doubting over her doing the spiderman thing they do.

  57. Shadow-Knight September 16, 2013 at 3:43 pm -      #57

    @Aelfinn

    ok, I was just asking, like I said. Several of the posts hadn’t loaded while I was typing, and many of my thoughts were addressed.

  58. Hellion Nick September 16, 2013 at 3:45 pm -      #58

    @Aelfinn
    “She can destroy the arena if she wants to and bring earth into it if she wants. It’s already past 50 posts, so I’m not sure if I can change it, but I didn’t feel like I was being unfair.”
    -
    For all I know you mentioned this in a way in post 46, doesn’t that make it legit from there?
    As you clearly mentioned that Toph could go for pulling earth from underneath the arena. Just Saying.

  59. Aelfinn September 16, 2013 at 3:47 pm -      #59

    “doesn’t that make it legit from there?”
    -
    I was referring more to the changes that Shadow-Knight wanted.

  60. Hellion Nick September 16, 2013 at 3:51 pm -      #60

    Well I do not know if it makes the fight more favourable or balanced for Toph, but in case of the latter I would be in favour of allowing it. Of course if Toph would end up being a good match for Vin without the need to access to earth then no hard feelings either.

  61. Aelfinn September 16, 2013 at 3:52 pm -      #61

    Anyway, when it comes to the fight, if Toph wraps herself in armor or starts to “turtle”, Vin should be able to make Toph come out of her “shell” by making her super-angry.

  62. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2013 at 3:53 pm -      #62

    The way I’m seeing it at the moment, is ether A. Vin duraluminum-pushes at Toph’s emotions and then kills her, or B. Toph puts/has on metal armor(“has” as it is after all what the MB-police wear), and just “LOL-nope”s near anything Vin can do, as after all “lack of will” isn’t going to make the metal vanish.

  63. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2013 at 3:59 pm -      #63

    @Aelfinn
    “Vin should be able to make Toph come out of her “shell” by making her super-angry.”
    -
    …..Not fallowing the logic of “super-angry”=”coming out of shell” rather then “hit her harder”….
    -
    Anyway, “super-angry” isn’t that easy, and would basically need duraluminum, otherwise it would likely take to long, and be to noticeable that the feelings aren’t real.

  64. Bibliophage September 16, 2013 at 4:04 pm -      #64

    Rioting could make Toph more likely to make a mistake, but the armor issue will give Vin huge trouble with getting a killing blow. If Toph’s wearing the standard police armor, then Vin might just try to throw her around and stab her through a gap in the armor. Not really likely to work, but a decent thing to try.

  65. Dassadec September 16, 2013 at 4:12 pm -      #65

    ”…Perhaps I shouldn’t be at the front, Straff thought suddenly. He turned his horse, then noticed something. An arrow suddenly shot from the midst of the charging koloss. But, koloss didn’t use bows. Besides, the monsters were still far away, and that object was far too big to be an arrow anyway. A rock, perhaps? It seemed larger than… It began to fall down towards Straff’s army. Straff stared into the sky, riveted by the strange object. It grew more distinct as it fell. It wasn’t an arrow, nor was it a rock. It was a person—a person with a flapping mistcloak.

    Vin screamed down from her duralumin-fueled Steeljump, massive koloss sword light in her hands. She hit Straff directly in the head with the sword, then continued on downward, slamming into the ground, throwing up snow and frozen dirt with the power of her impact. The horse fell into two pieces, front and back. What remained of the former king slid to the ground with the equine corpse. She looked at the remnants, smiled grimly, and bid Straff farewell….”
    Hero of Ages
    -

  66. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2013 at 4:15 pm -      #66

    @Dassadec
    -
    ….And?
    -
    Aside from that not being much of note next to some of the forces Toph has put out in her bending, Vin can, IIRC, only use duralumin with one metal at a time, so it’s not like she could push the front of armor and pull at the back……

  67. Dassadec September 16, 2013 at 4:23 pm -      #67

    @shgon
    Err she cleaved a man and a horse in half with that attack, and made a sizeable impact crater, Toph is still gonna feel that in her metal body armor,

  68. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2013 at 4:28 pm -      #68

    @Dassadec
    “Err she cleaved a man and a horse in half with that attack, and made a sizeable impact crater, Toph is still gonna feel that in her metal body armor,”
    -
    More talking about Vin fighting for control of said armor against the force of Toph’s bending.
    -
    And honestly… It *isn’t* much next to some of the stuff benders puck up and throw around.

  69. Dassadec September 16, 2013 at 4:30 pm -      #69

    I want to touch on the range of the fight here, Vin has a massive advantage from long range via Tineye senses, and Coinshots. Vin can dictate the engagement as her leisure by either pushing away from Toph using the bit of metal on the ground to “allomancy highway” anywhere she wanted in the arena while flinging said smaller peices as bullets.

  70. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2013 at 4:35 pm -      #70

    @Dassadec
    “I want to touch on the range of the fight here, Vin has a massive advantage from long range via Tineye senses, and Coinshots. Vin can dictate the engagement as her leisure by either pushing away from Toph using the bit of metal on the ground to “allomancy highway” anywhere she wanted in the arena while flinging said smaller peices as bullets.”
    -
    Said “bullets”(which is a touch exaggerating their speed and damage) wouldn’t do much Vs armor like Toph used near the end of AtLAB…. Though the thinner stuff the MB-police wear is debatable, it’s not like she couldn’t just add to it.

  71. Dassadec September 16, 2013 at 4:35 pm -      #71

    More talking about Vin fighting for control of said armor against the force of Toph’s bending.”
    -
    I don’t think vin could do much more than knock Toph over or off balance, by pushing on Toph while simultaneously pushing backward to anchor herself to remove the limit of her small body while strengthening her body with pewter to not be crushed.

  72. Shadow-Knight September 16, 2013 at 5:23 pm -      #72

    What would happen if Toph ripped a hole in the floor and started using earth bending as well as metal bending. How well can Vin handle columns or walls of solid rock and dirt getting flung at her going around 90 miles an hour.

  73. Bibliophage September 16, 2013 at 5:28 pm -      #73

    “How well can Vin handle columns or walls of solid rock and dirt getting flung at her going around 90 miles an hour.”
    -
    Let me put it this way; Vin is more agile than Azula, and Azula managed to dance around everything Toph could throw at her without bending a whit.
    -
    Vin can effectively fly, and when flying moves fast enough that people who can see lose track of her. Toph will be hard pressed merely trying to aim in the right general direction, let alone land decent hits.

  74. Shadow-Knight September 16, 2013 at 5:40 pm -      #74

    just wondering, because I know Toph can do some crazy things with earth-bending, and since this is adult Toph, she has had years to master her craft. I can see this going either way.

  75. ReDruM September 16, 2013 at 6:33 pm -      #75

    If Toph can use the earth around and underneath the arena what’s stopping her from just creating layers of shielding around herself that Vin cannot penetrate and just launch giant boulders at high speed until she eventually lands a hit. Its not like Vin can dodge every single strike and Toph would effectively have all the time in the world. As a matter of fact isn’t Toph a superior Earthbender to Aang and Aang was able to launch condensed pebbles at high enough velocities to split pillars of stone multiple feet thick in half so wouldn’t power scaling allow her to do the same?
    -
    I’m on Toph’s side for now. She has more options.

  76. GuardianAngel1911 September 16, 2013 at 7:04 pm -      #76

    @ReDruM
    at the end of the first series she was still superior to him outside avatar state (Avatar State being a totally different game all together) adult versions I can’t say with certainty.
    Granted I’m not saying she can’t do the pebbles thing (if your reffering to the final battle they werent’ actually pebbles but boulders condensed down in on themselves to that size, same density just tiny)

  77. Glutinous-Bicarbonate September 16, 2013 at 7:42 pm -      #77

    Can Toph pretty much force Vin to stay on her toes and such until she’s burnt out all of her metal supply, or is it assumed she has an indefinite supply to remain at fighting condition?

  78. Aelfinn September 16, 2013 at 7:42 pm -      #78

    “Its not like Vin can dodge every single strike”
    -
    While Vin has the metal Atium, she can do almost exactly that. It gives a perfect and un-erring image of future movements multiple seconds in advance to the user of atium, and improves the brain capabilities to react and understand it all. Vin will be able to dodge any boulder or rock before it is even fired. Atium is used up fairly quickly, but it’s the over-powered metal in-universe. They say the only way to beat atium is to either overwhelm it so that whatever the person does still leads to their death, or to have atium of your own.

  79. Aelfinn September 16, 2013 at 7:47 pm -      #79

    “is it assumed she has an indefinite supply to remain at fighting condition?”
    -
    No. Vin has almost never run out of metals during a fight/night, at least when fully-stocked as she is here, but if Toph is able to out-last it, that sucks for Vin.

  80. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2013 at 8:14 pm -      #80

    Like all forms of precog, atium has it limits, in this case the “if you can’t dodge, you can’t dodge” one, which Banding is more then AOE enough to invoke, only…… Well, that would be more easily done then said, if it wasn’t for the whole “large metal arena” thing. :lol:
    -
    But anyway, any one bead of atium is only going to last a few moments, and it’s not going to help much in getting past a full earth or metal shield, or for that matter, if Toph just goes under ground.
    -
    …..Yeah, just going “sand lion” on Vin might be a good plan.

  81. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2013 at 8:18 pm -      #81

    “…..Yeah, just going “sand lion” on Vin might be a good plan.”
    -
    Well, going by my search engine, the proper name is “antlion”, but at least “sand lion” seems to be used, so I didn’t have a complete brain fart. :P

  82. Sauroposeidon September 17, 2013 at 8:18 am -      #82

    @Admin
    -
    Ah, that makes sense. I’ll be honest that I don’t like the answer that much, but it’s your site and you’re fully justified whether I like it or not to do what’s best for its traffic.

  83. Aelfinn September 17, 2013 at 12:34 pm -      #83

    “.Not fallowing the logic of “super-angry”=”coming out of shell””
    -
    As in, if Toph made a literal shell to hide from Vin, or something, Vin could make her come out of it.
    -
    “otherwise it would likely take to long, and be to noticeable that the feelings aren’t real.”
    -
    Toph wouldn’t know that her feelings could be messed with, though (unless that comes under “basic knowledge”, but that seems like that would be too much information).

  84. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2013 at 12:42 pm -      #84

    @Aelfinn
    “As in, if Toph made a literal shell to hide from Vin, or something, Vin could make her come out of it.”
    -
    …..Why?
    -
    “Toph wouldn’t know that her feelings could be messed with, though (unless that comes under “basic knowledge”, but that seems like that would be too much information).”
    -
    She doesn’t need to, noticing that kind of thing done to indelicately is rather noticeable, as is even shown in Mistborn itself, and “in the meddle of a fight” isn’t the time to take it slow.

  85. Aelfinn September 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm -      #85

    “Why?”
    -
    What do you mean? I’m just saying that if the circumstances, for some inexplicable reason, caused Toph to form a metal shell around herself, making her angry would be enough to get her to come out.
    -
    “noticing that kind of thing done to indelicately is rather noticeable, as is even shown in Mistborn itself”
    -
    But people in the Mistborn universe know that emotional manipulation is a thing. Toph also doesn’t come off as the type of person to really examine her own emotions.
    =
    Unrelated WoT side-note: have you heard the rumor that Shaisam is actually a different Dark One?

  86. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2013 at 1:06 pm -      #86

    @Aelfinn
    “What do you mean? I’m just saying that if the circumstances, for some inexplicable reason, caused Toph to form a metal shell around herself, making her angry would be enough to get her to come out.”
    -
    That’s just it, no, it wouldn’t.
    -
    “But people in the Mistborn universe know that emotional manipulation is a thing. Toph also doesn’t come off as the type of person to really examine her own emotions.”
    -
    Foreknowledge isn’t really needed to notice your suddenly feeling something completely different then you were before, something you’ve got no or little reason to feel.
    -
    “Unrelated WoT side-note: have you heard the rumor that Shaisam is actually a different Dark One?”
    -
    That sounds silly, where did you hear it?

  87. Aelfinn September 17, 2013 at 2:11 pm -      #87

    “That’s just it, no, it wouldn’t.”
    -
    Why?
    -
    “Foreknowledge isn’t really needed to notice your suddenly feeling something completely different then you were before, something you’ve got no or little reason to feel.”
    -
    If Toph had a lot of trouble hitting Vin, as she is sure to, it would not be a large jump from “frustrated” to “angry”.
    -
    “That sounds silly, where did you hear it?”
    -
    I think there may be Sanderson WoG on it, and it was brought up in TvTropes, from what I heard (as I said, rumors). And yeah, I agree that it sounds silly at first, but it makes a lot of sense when it comes down to it. Mordeth used something evil, right? It was an evil as opposed to Shai’tan as it was to “good”, often beating counter-point in the two wounds Rand had. The evil of Shadar Logoth was used to destroy the taint on saidin, and it explains the expansion of Padan Fain’s power. Also, we know the Dark One is probably only a multiversal (not an omniversal) threat due to him only threatening the main universe and its mirrors, but not the world of the Finn or the place where the Ogier would use the Book of Translation to go to. As the Creator said to Rand that it was the time of the “great test”, or something along those lines, it makes sense if each multiverse has its own threat to face. And as Herid Fel said “what matters it to a gardener if one rose wilts and dies?”

  88. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2013 at 2:45 pm -      #88

    @Aelfinn
    “Why?”
    -
    Because “angry” would just make her want to hit Vin harder/more, which… Doesn’t, in any way, need for her to drop her defenses.
    -
    “If Toph had a lot of trouble hitting Vin, as she is sure to, it would not be a large jump from “frustrated” to “angry”.”
    -
    To not be noticeable, as in the books, it would have to be a slow build up, where as to be of much use in a fight, it would have to be a quick, and so noticeable, one. “A little angry” isn’t going to amount to much, and a duraluminum burn, though much more effective, doesn’t last that long, and as I said, if Toph is already in her armor… It’s not just going to vanish.
    -
    “I think there may be Sanderson WoG on it,”
    -
    None I’ve ever seen, and I’ve look just recently at Fain’s page on the WOG database for stuff having to do with the Finn.
    -
    “Also, we know the Dark One is probably only a multiversal (not an omniversal) threat due to him only threatening the main universe and its mirrors, but not the world of the Finn or the place where the Ogier would use the Book of Translation to go to.”
    -
    OK, that’s just wrong. For one, yeah the DO is omniversal, hell, he’s out side the Pattern, but much more noticeably then that… Remember when then Pattern was breaking down towards the end of the LB where they were fighting outside the Pit? How a bunch of images of other realities were phasing in and out? The Finn were one of them, and they were fighting there.
    -
    So yes, the DO does threaten the dimensions like those of the Finn and Ogier.
    -
    “As the Creator said to Rand that it was the time of the “great test”, or something along those lines, it makes sense if each multiverse has its own threat to face. And as Herid Fel said “what matters it to a gardener if one rose wilts and dies?””
    -
    Oh, there might be other versions of “Rand” who are also “the Dragon”, and hell, there are other “Chosen Ones” in the Main Reality, but there is only one Creator and one Dark One, who are both are both out side of the Pattern.

  89. Aelfinn September 17, 2013 at 3:34 pm -      #89

    “So yes, the DO does threaten the dimensions like those of the Finn and Ogier.”
    -
    That doesn’t explain, though, how the Ogier could even think the Book of Translation could help, or why the Creator wouldn’t care much at all for the Dark One destroying the Pattern. “Like a flower to a gardener”.
    -
    But that’s just rumors, so it’s not important.
    =
    “Because “angry” would just make her want to hit Vin harder/more, which… Doesn’t, in any way, need for her to drop her defenses.”
    -
    I’m not saying “drop all defenses”, I’m saying “if Toph is literally in a giant metal ball (which isn’t conducive to bending), getting her angry will make her come out of the ball to attack”.

  90. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2013 at 4:08 pm -      #90

    @Aelfinn
    “That doesn’t explain, though, how the Ogier could even think the Book of Translation could help, or why the Creator wouldn’t care much at all for the Dark One destroying the Pattern. “Like a flower to a gardener”.”
    -
    The “Like a flower to a gardener” was just a POV that LTT told Rand in his head, as RJ in a WOG said.
    -
    “Interview: Mar, 2000
    Letter to Paul Ward (Verbatim)
    Paul Ward
    Possible question: Is the Dark One pure True Power? Why does the Creator ignore Randland except to talk to Rand at the end of The Eye of the World?
    Robert Jordan
    No, the Dark One is not pure True Power. Who says the Creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind? And I will neither confirm nor deny that the Creator spoke to Rand.
    Paul Ward
    Neither confirm nor deny? What’s up with that?”
    -
    And for that matter.
    -
    ” Question
    -
    The Creator’s “Inability” To Act On His Creation
    -
    Having encountered a similar “theology” in Donaldson’s Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can’t act on His own world. It didn’t seem to make sense, except as a plot device.
    Robert Jordan
    RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowledging imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they’ve been left on their own to “patch” things up. :-)
    MICHAEL MARTIN
    -
    This sheds a LOT of light on some things in Randland. First, there will not be any final expiation of evil (i.e. Book of Revelation in Christianity). What we have is an infinite cycle (“Wheel”) of the struggle of light and darkness. The best to be hoped for is an eternal balance, rather than some final, complete victory (for good). This bothers me on several fronts, not the least that evil can win and good can’t.
    -
    Also note that this really helps explain Fel’s ramblings in Lord of Chaos. The sealing, Bore and all that will just cycle endlessly.”
    -
    LTT’s “smart” but that doesn’t mean he’s “right”, even more so as, IIRC, that was something he said even before “Dark-Rand” came about, when Rand… Wasn’t exactly feeling “pro”-creation.
    -
    “I’m not saying “drop all defenses”, I’m saying “if Toph is literally in a giant metal ball (which isn’t conducive to bending), getting her angry will make her come out of the ball to attack”.”
    -
    …..It’s not a “giant metal ball” it’s basically her rapping a bunch of metal plates around her like armor. She’s still quite mobile, and quite able to bend.
    -
    Was there not a video of it on page one(didn’t look closely at them mysself)?
    -
    Can someone with a internet connection up to the task look for her doing that on the FN-blimp in the last few episodes?

  91. captain napalm September 17, 2013 at 4:16 pm -      #91

    Glad to see more Mistborn matches–though all four of them have been Vin. Awesome as she is, it’d be nice to see some other characters get a go, Kelsier or Wax maybe.
    -
    Anyway, in regards to the match itself: I’m going with Vin initially, mainly due to the fact that while her bouncing around and Toph’s AoE attacks make a wonderful stalemate (until Vin runs out of metals), if Vin gets one good hit in with pewter-enhanced strength, that’d be enough to win, whereas that same strength will mean she can take a couple of hits in return and not be completely out of it.
    -
    Of course, Toph does have good defences to stop Vin getting said necessary one hit, but tin-enhanced senses (and atium, in one version) should allow her to identify and exploit the weakest point in Toph’s armour/barrier/whatever she’s defending herself with.

  92. Commander Cross September 17, 2013 at 4:24 pm -      #92

    @Captain Napalm at #91

    Tell me about it, I say the same kind of thing in regards to ‘Pumpkin-headed’ Dresden himself and letting some of his allies or enemies have a shot instead.

    With dot hack-related matters for that matter, I even tried to do likewise with some of Haseo’s allies or enemies whenever I get half of a shot to do that, which is not often.

    Ahh well, what can you do?

  93. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2013 at 4:37 pm -      #93

    @captain napalm
    “Of course, Toph does have good defences to stop Vin getting said necessary one hit, but tin-enhanced senses (and atium, in one version) should allow her to identify and exploit the weakest point in Toph’s armour/barrier/whatever she’s defending herself with.”
    -
    On the other hand, if Toph goes underground…. There’s not actually anything Vin can do to her.

  94. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2013 at 4:40 pm -      #94

    @Commander Cross
    “Tell me about it, I say the same kind of thing in regards to ‘Pumpkin-headed’ Dresden himself and letting some of his allies or enemies have a shot instead.
    -
    With dot hack-related matters for that matter, I even tried to do likewise with some of Haseo’s allies or enemies whenever I get half of a shot to do that, which is not often.
    -
    Ahh well, what can you do?”
    -
    Very few WoT characters get fights. Mostly it’s a “best of the best” thing.
    -
    Vin is the most skilled Mistborn(and in “burning the mist”-mode, most powerful), so she gets the fights.

  95. Rhododendron September 17, 2013 at 7:27 pm -      #95

    that picture of toph is kinda creepy…

  96. Aelfinn September 17, 2013 at 10:08 pm -      #96

    “..It’s not a “giant metal ball” it’s basically her rapping a bunch of metal plates around her like armor”
    -
    Yeah, I know that. Did you not see how I qualified my statement? The thing is, if Toph covers herself in armor, a duraluminum-fueled pull is enough to move, what? Several-tons object? That should be enough to move Toph and mess her up. What I was accounted for was if she literally went “turtle”.
    -
    “On the other hand, if Toph goes underground….”
    -
    That’s effectively hiding, especially because she doesn’t know that Vin can run out of power.

  97. Watchdog Lowk September 17, 2013 at 10:13 pm -      #97

    “That’s effectively hiding, especially because she doesn’t know that Vin can run out of power.”
    -
    But Toph can still attack from underground though. How is that hiding?

  98. Dassadec September 17, 2013 at 10:15 pm -      #98

    You know I think vin can force a BFR by Making Toph afraid enought to flee the arena,

  99. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2013 at 10:21 pm -      #99

    @Aelfinn
    “Yeah, I know that. Did you not see how I qualified my statement? The thing is, if Toph covers herself in armor, a duraluminum-fueled pull is enough to move, what? Several-tons object? That should be enough to move Toph and mess her up. What I was accounted for was if she literally went “turtle”.”
    -
    “Several-tons”…. Have you seen the sizes of rocks that Toph can move?
    -
    If she’s putting her strength into not moving, it’s going to take more then “Several-tons”….. If you can even call throwing a small women over an army, and then cutting through a man and horse “Several-tons” is the first place. :?
    -
    “That’s effectively hiding, especially because she doesn’t know that Vin can run out of power.”
    -
    Earthbenders are perfectly able to attack from underground, and even if she doesn’t know Vin will run out of power, she’ll know that the coins can’t get her there.
    -
    And honestly…… Could be please get some quotes on these coins?
    -
    From what I remember, they weren’t anywhere near “bullet speed”, and the best damage they were doing, was pitting rock a little….. Which I’m not even sure would be enough to do much damage to Toph in the first place. :?
    -
    The Sword would likely be Vin’s best shot, but I doubt she has the speed to make use of it without first duraluminum-soothing Toph into inactivity.

  100. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2013 at 10:22 pm -      #100

    “You know I think vin can force a BFR by Making Toph afraid enought to flee the arena,”
    -
    It’s already been said that there is no “ring out”.

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