Motoko Kusanagi Vs Adam Jensen

Motoko Kusanagi Vs Adam Jensen

Brought to you by andrew

For this match we have Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell going up against Adam Jensen from the Deus Ex: Human Revolution franchise.

They are both heavily augmented post humans with a broad skill set and are both strong protagonists in their universes. Motoko is ex military with a full body prosthesis, and is an extremely capable combatant and hacker. Jensen has a lot of experimental tech wired up to him, and is certainly no slouch in the combat and hacking area’s.

The idea would be that they both have their basic loadouts – for this match that would be their stealth equipment, hacking capabilities, armor and their standard sidearm (i.e. Jensen has his 10mm unupgraded, iirc Kusanagi uses a 9mm). Jensen does not have the typhoon, and Kusanagi does not have any specialized hacking equipment (the dummy barriers etc – just her own in built and natural abilities)

the versus takes place in the standard cyberpunk setting – industrial slum, with moderate rainfall.

this match takes place in a dock yard with warehouses, narrow alley ways, high points with moderate rainfall.

Both Adam and Motoko have all their abilities – Who would emerge the victor?

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140 Comments on "Motoko Kusanagi Vs Adam Jensen"

  1. CannibalisticCookie July 19, 2013 at 8:20 am -      #1

    Motoko hacks Jensen through anime logic. /Match. Really though, you should have said no hacking of the opponent, because now you’re going to have endless waves of GitS fans saying that she can just hack Jensen.
    -
    In a straight fight, with no Typhoon, I am leaning towards Motoko anyways, though Jensen’s X-Ray vision might be a deal-breaker.

  2. Sauroposeidon July 19, 2013 at 8:27 am -      #2

    I know for a fact that this is a match Lancer really wanted to see up here. He should be happy to see this.

  3. Kara Zor-El July 19, 2013 at 8:41 am -      #3

    Motko’s pretty fucking fast, how fast is Jensen? I’ve only played like the first mission or two of Deus Ex Human Revolution.
    _
    “Motoko hacks Jensen through anime logic. /Match”
    _
    I know it’s been a while since I watched any GitS, but I didn’t think she could wirelessly hack, Jensen would have to be plugged into the net. Wouldn’t he?

  4. andrew July 19, 2013 at 9:03 am -      #4

    couldve sworn i was the one to suggest this :|
    -
    anyway. /anime logic wouldnt necessarily work, because. she is only shown to be able to combat hack people with the same kind of stuff as her. batou in GITS:SAC is a good example – she forces him to punch himself in the face. but they pretty much work off of the same OS and coding formats and such. now – i dont know a single damn thing about hacking or computer coding, but i thought the match up assuming that the difference of the technologies and their development would stop her from just walking up to him, smiling, and hacking him into shooting himself.
    -
    yes, kusnagi can hack wirelessly, but that could theoretically be a weakness as well. in GITS:SAC they have an “autistic mode” which blocks all wireless in/out communications, which is, to my mind, somewhat similar to what jensen would be here.
    -
    being a gits fan myself (it was how i came into the cyberpunk aesthetics and genre) i actually reckon this is pretty evenly matched. we will see anyway.

  5. Kara Zor-El July 19, 2013 at 9:15 am -      #5

    Oh can she? Well, it’s been quite a few years since I saw SAC. I’m a huge GitS fan though ;P I even have the original manga!
    _
    If you like Cyberpunk, and haven’t seen it, I highly recommend Armitage III.
    _
    To the match, I ask again, how fast is Adam, because Motoko could possibly speed blitz.

  6. Karen Starr July 19, 2013 at 9:20 am -      #6

    Armitage 3 is awesome, I’d also look into Battle Angel.

  7. Namer July 19, 2013 at 9:27 am -      #7

    Just played DX:HR a couple weeks ago. I don’t think Jensen’s any faster than Peak Human. Don’t recall any proper speed feats off the top of my head.Jensen does have a cloak and is sufficiently armored enough that a 9mm won’t be too effective.

  8. Kara Zor-El July 19, 2013 at 9:33 am -      #8

    “Armitage 3 is awesome, I’d also look into Battle Angel.”
    _
    Gen 13, Armitage 3 and Battle Angel Alita? … I think I love you xD
    _
    @Namor
    Well, is the cloak standard equipment though, or is it one of his major upgrades? Motoko is well versed in quite a few martial arts if I’m not mistaken, and her robotic body is pretty damn powerful.

  9. Watchdog Lowk July 19, 2013 at 9:36 am -      #9

    “Motko’s pretty fucking fast, how fast is Jensen?”
    ” I don’t think Jensen’s any faster than Peak Human.”
    -
    He can dodge bullets
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Just%20cuz/sniper1_zps1b940e1e.jpg
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Just%20cuz/sniper2_zpsdc3ee061.jpg

  10. Karen Starr July 19, 2013 at 12:18 pm -      #10

    I can’t recall but I feel like Makoto has dodged bullets before herself…, so maybe they are at least even in terms of speed.

    @Kara
    <3

  11. Kara Zor-El July 19, 2013 at 12:33 pm -      #11

    I SAC I’m pretty sure Motoko was running at over 70mph chasing after a car down the highway, or something.

  12. shaun182 July 19, 2013 at 12:39 pm -      #12

    Here is an example of the major’s endurance
    -
    m.youtube.com/watch?v=-56mT6durto

  13. Cananatra July 19, 2013 at 5:21 pm -      #13

    Both are cyborgs but while Jenson is the typical grafted tech into a body Motoko is only a brain and some brain stem. With her levels of strength any shot she lands on the non-augmented areas of Jenson will destroy flesh in close combat and the only ranged attack which will guarantee kill her is a AP round to the head. So my money is on Motoko for this one.

  14. Grim Aran July 19, 2013 at 5:28 pm -      #14

    It’s been quite a while since I watched GitS and I haven’t touched human revolution in months but iirc Motoko’s augments have much more raw power than Jensen’s, though his are more varied as I recall. I dunno what level of bullet resistance she has but I’m pretty sure just shooting him in the head is an insta-kill, or failling that, a martial arts hit in any non-armored/augmented part of him will wreck it, which in the case of his head means death also.

  15. lancer_AR July 19, 2013 at 6:06 pm -      #15

    No hackinng
    -
    Also I find this funny. I suggested this around the time DX:HR first came out and figured I’d get Adam jensen’s debut match against a worthy opponent and instead admin posts a match with Adam Jensen fighting some nobody robot guy maybe like 3 people heard of.

  16. Cananatra July 19, 2013 at 6:32 pm -      #16

    Grim Aran, I cant speak for most of her body, but the brain cases require high powered rifles with special ammo to reliably penetrate.

  17. sadot06 July 19, 2013 at 6:43 pm -      #17

    Yay, a Kusnagi match. I suggested a few myself. I’m leaning towards her. I watched the whole series not too long ago. She’s extremely beast

  18. Watchdog Lowk July 19, 2013 at 6:49 pm -      #18

    “Both are cyborgs but while Jenson is the typical grafted tech into a body Motoko is only a brain and some brain stem. With her levels of strength any shot she lands on the non-augmented areas of Jenson will destroy flesh in close combat and the only ranged attack which will guarantee kill her is a AP round to the head.”
    -
    The skin is actually dermal armor. And he’s got a self repair system and the insides are mostly cybernetic as well.

  19. Cananatra July 19, 2013 at 6:58 pm -      #19

    Mostly is an exaggeration. His arms are tech, as are his legs from the knees down. He has plenty of implants in his torso but his original organs are still there, though some like the heart, with modifications. Perhaps most importantly though his spine and skull are unaugmented in any defensive capacity and his dermal armour isn’t exactly brilliant.

  20. andrew July 19, 2013 at 7:32 pm -      #20

    no seriously, this was my suggestion. asides the first and last two sentences, that is literally what i wrote word for word. somewhat annoying when i paid the two dollars to get this on the site…
    -
    and i dont see why hacking is a no-no. there is no indication that motoko could actually hack jensen himself without a hardline access, which probably wouldnt be acquired unless she caught him napping anyway. his only “wireless” service is communications, which he would not be using in this fight, if she tried gaining access through this he could literally turn it off and suffer no disadvantage.
    -
    anyway – strength feats for the SAC major are more in the line of what she cannot do – she is shown to be able to pretty handily throw other approximately human sized things around, whether robotic or otherwise, but the actual stand out events we see are showing her trying something beyond her abilities, like prising the hatch off of a tank. despite this, one would think that even in desperation she wouldnt try unless there was some chance she would be able to prise the hatch open… Jensen is able to lift dumpsters and the like in game, but nothing heavier than that.
    -
    these feats seem roughly equal to me, with jensen maybe coming out a little ahead. outside of takedowns we dont really get to see his dexterity imo, given game-mechanic limitations, but the major is definitely possessed of great dexterity, and is very fast in a flat run. do the books/comics of deus ex give decent speed/dex feats for jensen?

  21. OberHeresy July 19, 2013 at 8:13 pm -      #21

    Its an anime vs. something that is vaguely based in reality…..what the hell do you think is gonna happen?!

  22. Watchdog Lowk July 19, 2013 at 8:17 pm -      #22

    “Perhaps most importantly though his spine and skull are unaugmented in any defensive capacity and his dermal armour isn’t exactly brilliant.”
    -
    His skull was so it could hold the implants in his head… and those shades.
    images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100618203760/deusex/en/images/8/8e/Jensen_augs_noshades.jpg
    Wasn’t his back injured in the attack?
    ===
    “do the books/comics of deus ex give decent speed/dex feats for jensen?”
    -
    Some yeah. Tryin to get some of them together.

  23. OberHeresy July 19, 2013 at 8:19 pm -      #23

    I should point out Admin that Dues Ex: Human Revolution is a GAME in the Dues Ex series, not the series itself.

  24. Grim Aran July 19, 2013 at 11:02 pm -      #25

    So I looked up some stuff and my new guesses are that she wins at range because his bullets will only scratch her dermal armor at best and her’s can potentially one-shot him. And she also wins in melee because she’s a couple times faster, comfortably stronger, substancially more durable and a much much better hand-to-hand fighter.

  25. Watchdog Lowk July 19, 2013 at 11:31 pm -      #27

    cross 30 meters before the guy can react
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Just%20cuz/Adam%20Jensen/infiltrate2_zps0cfc4328.png
    ===
    “I looked up some stuff and my new guesses are that she wins at range because his bullets will only scratch her dermal armor at best and her’s can potentially one-shot him.”
    -
    Going by him only suffing minor damage from the typhoon I think he should be able to take her 9mm.
    ===
    What explosive can do
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Just%20cuz/Adam%20Jensen/Explosivespointblank1_zpsfbe77541.png
    -
    Adam survives it going off
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Just%20cuz/Adam%20Jensen/Explosivespointblank2_zps430eee57.png
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Just%20cuz/Adam%20Jensen/Explosivespointblank3_zpsfb1eefdd.png

  26. Watchdog Lowk July 19, 2013 at 11:39 pm -      #28

    Wouldn’t Adams arm bladaes give him somewhat of an advantage in melee since he has a greater striking range and equal bullet timing reflexes?
    ===
    I I can find feats for either you guy and gals think Steve Austin or Jaime Sommers(bionic man bionic woman) would be good against The Major? They’ve got a comic reboot.
    media.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/48827/bmvsbw.jpg

  27. Watchdog Lowk July 19, 2013 at 11:40 pm -      #29

    *I I can find feats
    -
    If I can find feats

  28. Grim Aran July 19, 2013 at 11:45 pm -      #30

    I assumed the typhoon didn’t harm him because it was designed not too, what with being fired from his body and stuff. Besides even with all defensive upgrades you still get shredded in seconds by open fire in-game, even on easy, Jensen isn’t a very durable individual for a super cyborg.

  29. Watchdog Lowk July 19, 2013 at 11:50 pm -      #31

    “I assumed the typhoon didn’t harm him because it was designed not too, what with being fired from his body and stuff.”
    -
    The one fired from the other guy in the scan.

  30. Watchdog Lowk July 19, 2013 at 11:55 pm -      #32

    I really need to stop hitting post so quickly
    -
    “Besides even with all defensive upgrades you still get shredded in seconds by open fire in-game, even on easy, Jensen isn’t a very durable individual for a super cyborg.”
    -
    The scans show he actually pretty durable. Thing there’s even a cutscene where he was blasted away by a grenade and just got back up. Also aren’t most weapons in game are above a 9mm pistol. I think the only the submachine gun was and even then it had something that made it above a regular 9mm bullet.

  31. Grim Aran July 20, 2013 at 12:05 am -      #33

    I still say she runs up to him and punch/kicks his head off.

  32. CannibalisticCookie July 20, 2013 at 12:06 am -      #34

    Why can’t Jensen just ambush her? It isn’t like she can hide. He can always see her, I don’t think she has the same ability however. Being able to see your enemy through walls is a pretty huge advantage.

  33. Grim Aran July 20, 2013 at 12:10 am -      #35

    And what’s he gonna do then ? He can’t kill or severly injure her in one shot, if he gets a shot before she notices him. After that she’ll punch/kick his head off.

  34. Watchdog Lowk July 20, 2013 at 12:15 am -      #36

    “And what’s he gonna do then ? He can’t kill or severly injure her in one shot, if he gets a shot before she notices him.”
    -
    He does have the strength toss several hundred pound vending machine and punch through solid wall. That strength applied in using his blades which have shown cutting through things from bone to armor should help in cutting her.

  35. Ford Prefect (the Hoopy Frood) July 20, 2013 at 12:24 am -      #37

    In game it says that dermal armor gives one resistance to headshots, against 10mm AP iirc too

  36. andrew July 20, 2013 at 2:04 am -      #38

    “Why can’t Jensen just ambush her? It isn’t like she can hide. He can always see her, I don’t think she has the same ability however.”
    -
    they both have the ability to cloak actually, though this is somewhat mitigated by the constant rainfall of the setting.

  37. OriginalA July 20, 2013 at 3:39 am -      #39

    Hacking is a no go because Jensen’s hardware doesn’t allow people to hack into him without a physical alteration to the hardware. Specifically it required a modified Wet Drive within the Neural Hub. … Whatever that means. Jensen doesn’t have it so The Major can’t use that against him. It’s kind of a major plot point in DE:HR that you can’t normally hack into people, and that to do so requires the person that is being hacked to be specifically modified to be open to such proxy control.

  38. andrew July 20, 2013 at 3:50 am -      #40

    but that just means she theoretically cannot hack him. there is no reason they cannot subvert any technology in the environment. remember this takes place in a “standard cyberpunk setting”, which means there will be computer technology and security cameras and the like in the environment.
    -
    in any case; the hacker in the typhoon plant was being remotely controlled by a hacker in real time, so it is probably possible if one is capable enough.

  39. I-REAPER-I July 20, 2013 at 6:22 am -      #41

    I know so little about these two characters. I played Deus Ex for like 2 days.

  40. Cananatra July 20, 2013 at 7:14 am -      #42

    OK, it’s surprisingly hard to find good combat compilations for Motoko but here are some.
    -
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_krGuSLC7c
    -
    The very first scene on that we see her jump a considerable distance between buildings and then hop back and forth up them. At that distance that required a lot of speed and strength.
    -
    0:34 another speed feat of her crossing a roof and grabbing an opponent before he can finish pulling his pistol after ducking into cover.
    -
    0:54 drops several stories, bit of aim dodging, broke another cyborgs arm, very accurate shot.
    -
    1:12 drops from a helicopter down the side of a skyscraper and headshots a guy holding a hostage while passing the window.
    -
    1:30 taking on a armoured suit. 1:35 diving away from a large grenade explosion then taking a hit from an anti-tank level gun, losing an arm to it and avoiding the other rounds. 1:50 shows braincase durability, that was easily a couple of tons.
    -
    2:13, firing a large anti-armour gun one handed repeatedly.
    -
    2:50, stops a large helicopter she’s roped using muscle power.
    -
    3:25, gets hit by a fragment of corrugated iron from an explosion and is knocked down. Other fragments pass clean through surrounding buildings walls.
    -
    I’m fairly sure those feats put speed, strength and durability in favour of Motoko.

  41. Watchdog Lowk July 20, 2013 at 8:16 am -      #43

    “I’m fairly sure those feats put speed, strength and durability in favour of Motoko.”
    -
    Strength and durability yeah. But Adam’s got the same speed feats plus one were he dodge a bullet when it was just about to hit him.

  42. Belisaurius July 20, 2013 at 10:46 am -      #44

    Jensen’s abilities draw energy from his built in batteries. While he can recharge these batteries, it takes time. In which case he will need to take periodic breaks in order to either eat an energy bar or wait for his own metabolism to charge his batteries.

    Kusanagi has never been under these restrictions.

  43. Namer July 20, 2013 at 12:37 pm -      #45

    It doesn’t take much time to snap up a bar of candy. Besides, has this been referred to in cutscenes? If not, then it counts as gameplay mechanics.

  44. Mea quidem sententia July 20, 2013 at 1:28 pm -      #46

    Namer Post #45
    •Your question assumes that it must be referred in cut-scenes.
    •Your next part is an assertion and a non-sequitur. Even if it wasn’t a non-sequitur, it’s not an argument, nor convincing.
    •The reason it’s a non-sequitur is because there are other ways besides cut-scenes for something to be canon, such as manuals or in-game descriptions.
    •Even if Belisaurius doesn’t have evidence for his points, everything as you and I know runs on energy anyway. The same could be said of Motoko Kusanagi as well.

  45. Grim Aran July 20, 2013 at 5:52 pm -      #47

    Belisaurius’ point is a pretty good one, Jensen’s bigger feats are done with augments that sap his reserves, Motoko surpasses them and doesn’t need to recharge.

  46. Watchdog Lowk July 20, 2013 at 6:41 pm -      #48

    “Belisaurius’ point is a pretty good one, Jensen’s bigger feats are done with augments that sap his reserves, Motoko surpasses them and doesn’t need to recharge.”
    -
    The bullet dodging feat didn’t seem to be using energy. In fact it show that even without energy he has great reaction since he was able to see the bullets coming, process what weapon they were from, and react accordingly all before the bullets hit.
    ===
    There’s also that he jumps across 30 meters to knock a guy out before he reacts then, uses xray, then speed blitz a room of guys, and blocks bullets by swinging a guy in front of himself
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Just%20cuz/Adam%20Jensen/fight1_zps70815b9f.png
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Just%20cuz/Adam%20Jensen/fight2_zps0b1c70f8.png
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Just%20cuz/Adam%20Jensen/fight3_zpsd34682b1.png
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Just%20cuz/Adam%20Jensen/fight4_zps741a6480.png
    i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/infamousColeMacgrath/Just%20cuz/Adam%20Jensen/fight5_zpsc96ed14f.png
    Doesn’t seem to use up a lot of energy.
    While I agree he does use energy to sustain some of his abilities It seems the game mechanics do seem to limit Jensen’s energy some.

  47. Watchdog Lowk July 20, 2013 at 6:42 pm -      #49

    limit Jensen’s energy some.
    -
    limit Jensen’s energy usage some.

  48. Grim Aran July 20, 2013 at 6:58 pm -      #50

    How I see it is more like the comics writers went OTT because that’s what comic book writers do and the game shows Jensen like the wimp of a cyborg he actually is.

  49. Watchdog Lowk July 20, 2013 at 7:04 pm -      #51

    Or hes like several other game character who should be able to wipe the floor with everyone but is limited by game mechanics.

  50. Kara Zor-El July 20, 2013 at 7:11 pm -      #52

    I think Motoko is still out of his league. Isn’t the bullet thing a reaction feat not a speed feat? I know there’s also that other scan were he raced the 30 meters or whatever. I think the construction materials in Motoko are just so much stronger than in Adams that even if he were fast enough to keep up with her, he isn’t strong enough to do anything, while she is strong enough to probably rip him in two xD

  51. Grim Aran July 20, 2013 at 7:30 pm -      #53

    @Lowk-> My point is better thought out than it seems !! If say, Deadpool was like in his cannon in-game you couldn’t die, so he’s limited by game mechanics. Jensen is stated to still be half non-augmented, most notably his spine and pelvis, which are the support base for the whole skeleton, if he used his artificial lower legs to suddenly sidestep faster than bullets he should break his own body, thus I say the comics aren’t reliable imo.

    Also what Kara said, she’s going to break him, like a kit kat bar.

  52. Watchdog Lowk July 20, 2013 at 8:20 pm -      #54

    “I think Motoko is still out of his league. Isn’t the bullet thing a reaction feat not a speed feat?”
    -
    Its both. He saw the bullets, then moved himself and his friend out of the way.
    ===
    “I think the construction materials in Motoko are just so much stronger than in Adams that even if he were fast enough to keep up with her, he isn’t strong enough to do anything, while she is strong enough to probably rip him in two xD”
    -
    His blade are strong enough to cut into armored people. That plus the strength at which he can strike should helping cut into her.
    ===
    “Jensen is stated to still be half non-augmented, most notably his spine and pelvis, which are the support base for the whole skeleton, if he used his artificial lower legs to suddenly sidestep faster than bullets he should break his own body, thus I say the comics aren’t reliable imo.”
    -
    Pretty sure a good bit of Jensens internals had to be worked on after the incident. Man was crumpled up his dented container, lower half of his body was mangled, and he was shot in the head. Plus his spines seems to stand up just fine when he lift and throws the heavy stuff.
    Alternatively, the feat happened and it pretty clear what happen and what you stated didn’t happen. Stop trying discredit good evidence it took me a long time to find it, stahp it.

  53. Grim Aran July 20, 2013 at 8:24 pm -      #55

    I dunno know for sure his spine and stuff aren’t augmented, I took that off a post on here lol. I’m just saying if it isn’t that would severely limit the superhuman stuff he can do and make it even easier for Motoko to snap him like a twig with a sidekick.

  54. Kara Zor-El July 20, 2013 at 8:35 pm -      #56

    “His blade are strong enough to cut into armored people.”
    _
    Pretty sure that’s an association fallacy. Cybernetic Consturction in Deus Ex may not equal Cybernetic Construction in GitS. Prove he can cut through the kind of materials Motoko is made out of. If you wanna know how tough it is, watch the vic provided by Cananatra.

  55. Kara Zor-El July 20, 2013 at 8:38 pm -      #57

    Vid* >.>

  56. Watchdog Lowk July 20, 2013 at 9:00 pm -      #58

    “Pretty sure that’s an association fallacy.”
    -
    Was just giving an example of how good the blades were…
    ===
    “Prove he can cut through the kind of materials Motoko is made out of. If you wanna know how tough it is, watch the vic provided by Cananatra.”
    -
    I know how tough she is I’ve seen her get stomped and squished at takes some pretty mean hits throughout the series. I however don’t know what she’s made of, I remember Orginal A had given something regarding that but I don’t remember where it was. Do you happen to know what she’s made of?
    Also do you happen to know of any time she happened to be stabbed or gone up against a blade?

  57. Watchdog Lowk July 20, 2013 at 9:07 pm -      #59

    Only time I i could find that I remember was Kuze attempted assassination and she had to use her gun to defend against the sword.

  58. Kara Zor-El July 20, 2013 at 9:20 pm -      #60

    Can a blade pierce better than a bullet? Because she’s taken some pretty powerful rounds and been unaffected. – Just wondering is all.
    _
    To the instances of stabbing, off the top of my head I’m unsure, I’d have to look into it.

  59. Mea quidem sententia July 20, 2013 at 9:23 pm -      #61

    Grim Aran Post #47
    •Adam has cyberboost proenergy bars to resolve the energy issue.
    •Motoko may or may not require recharging, but just because we don’t see that ever happen does not mean it isn’t so.
    •As an example, we don’t see Captain Falcon defecate, but it doesn’t mean he doesn’t.
    •Things require energy. What reason is there to assume Motoko does not require energy recharge?
    •The onus is on you to provide evidence that Motoko does not require energy recharge.
    ——————–
    •I’ll be back for the rest later.

  60. Kara Zor-El July 20, 2013 at 9:30 pm -      #62

    MQS
    _
    I don’t think the question of her having to recharge is relevant. Jenson needs to recharge after x amount of exertion regardless, while Motoko has shown to be able to keep going after extremely strenuous bouts. She’s shown she could outlast anything Jensen could without needing to recharge.
    _
    They part of the vid showing her being attacked by the Mech thing, I think proves that. Also proves she’s far more durable and stronger than Adam.

  61. tyrannicuslictorface July 20, 2013 at 9:49 pm -      #63

    Grim Aran Post #47
    •Adam has cyberboost proenergy bars to resolve the energy issue.

    ~~~~~

    Isn’t that a game mechanism? Logically you need to digest the food/bar in order to receive the energy from the food. Unless Adam has a cyborg stomach filled with concentrated hydrochloric acid or something, he won’t be getting much at all from those bars other than some indigestion and flatulence.

    Also, I am pretty confident that a fully decked out EYE agent from EYE Divine Cybermancy could take out both of them.

  62. Mea quidem sententia July 20, 2013 at 11:02 pm -      #64

    Kara Zor-El Post #62
    •I think we’ll need to see some more comic panels to make a judgment about Adam’s energy usage.
    •As for the question of bullets, the geometric shape matters. One with a rounder tip isn’t going to pierce as easily as one with a sharp tip.
    •If someone can find out what Motoko’s body is made of, that would help.
    ——————–
    tyrannicuslictorface Post #63
    •I see no reason for it to be a game mechanic. Nothing has been proved to say it’s so. An assertion or dismissal is not evidence, nor an argument.
    •The stomach contains HCL, which has a pH level of 1.
    •Also, biofuel.

  63. Cananatra July 21, 2013 at 8:34 am -      #65

    “Motoko may or may not require recharging, but just because we don’t see that ever happen does not mean it isn’t so.”
    -
    In one of the episodes they find a brain case loaded by an artist to keep in him a theatre of his memories of sorts. What he believed was his ultimate artistic achievement. The braincase was left for significant periods of time as a bauble on a stand with no external power supply. We can not say for sure that it was never recharged over the decades it was there, however it does show that the braincase can support a brain without recharges, for longer than this match would last.
    -
    A second point, and one important to remember is that nano-technology is a driving power in the Ghost in the Shell universe. As these nanites can be used in regular people without power supplies then the nanite itself must have some sort of power generator.
    -
    “Things require energy. What reason is there to assume Motoko does not require energy recharge?”
    -
    No cyborg in Ghost on the Shell is ever seen to recharge. They have to go in for periodic maintenance as components wear out however they never plug in to recharge. Also, Motoko is using a military grade cyborg body, though one with a light chassis. As military bodies by their very nature are required to fight in conditions without power supplies (ie jungles) they must be self sustaining over a significant period of time.
    -
    As far as food is concerned Cyborgs in Ghost in the Shell eat protein bars occasionally to replace the proteins needed in their organic parts.
    -
    “I see no reason for it to be a game mechanic. Nothing has been proved to say it’s so. An assertion or dismissal is not evidence, nor an argument.”
    -
    The only reason you would see no reason is if you happily ignored laws of physics. Unless you wish to claim the bar is actually a battery, there is no way for him to get energy from food as quickly as he does in the game.

  64. Watchdog Lowk July 21, 2013 at 9:42 am -      #66

    ““I see no reason for it to be a game mechanic. Nothing has been proved to say it’s so. An assertion or dismissal is not evidence, nor an argument.”
    -
    The only reason you would see no reason is if you happily ignored laws of physics. Unless you wish to claim the bar is actually a battery, there is no way for him to get energy from food as quickly as he does in the game.”
    -
    Couldn’t it be due to the fact that the method he receives energy throught food is augmented as well?
    The Sarif Series 8 Energy Converter gives users the ability to maximize the energy available to any and all of their neuroaugmentations by transforming ordinary food to energy within augmentation-specific cells. With practice, these cells can increase in number and efficiency, ensuring that energy will always be there when needed.

  65. Cananatra July 21, 2013 at 10:07 am -      #67

    Fair enough lowk. I hadnt seen that augmentation.

  66. Mea quidem sententia July 21, 2013 at 1:37 pm -      #68

    Cananatra Post #65
    •Insufficient data.
    •Yes, I would agree that even if Motoko does require energy recharging, it’s irrelevant to the match.
    •All right, so no recharging necessary, but maintenance is required. Again, I will ignore this as it’s not relevant to the match.
    •Interesting that you mention protein. Cyberboost proenergy bars offer protein and carbohydrates.
    •I have to stand by canon, even if it goes against physics.

  67. andrew July 21, 2013 at 6:19 pm -      #69

    in response to some assertions several posts above, i just want to point out that if jensen’s non-augmented body parts prevented him from utilising his augments to their fullest, he would not be able to lift dumpsters, fridges and so on unaided in the way that he does. to attempt to do so would break his supposedly unaugmented spine. they dont, so we cannot assume he is limited by whatever unaugmented body parts he may or may not have.

  68. Cananatra July 21, 2013 at 7:21 pm -      #70

    Eh andrew, I’ve lifted small fridges and I’m no cyborg and I’ve lifted empty dumpsters with a friend as they are surprisingly light. Anyway point is that his organic bits wouldn’t break under those loads anyway. Bone has a fair bit of compressive strength.
    -
    The difference is that he still has organics which are more fragile than the augmentations and can tire out. Motoko doesnt.

  69. tyrannicuslictorface July 22, 2013 at 1:10 am -      #71

    tyrannicuslictorface Post #63
    •I see no reason for it to be a game mechanic. Nothing has been proved to say it’s so. An assertion or dismissal is not evidence, nor an argument.
    •The stomach contains HCL, which has a pH level of 1.
    •Also, biofuel.

    ~~~

    Because logically it makes no sense? Stop hiding behind technicalities and face the facts. Unless you can explicitly cite that the food has been designed to break down instantaneously and be absorbed by the body the moment it has been ingested, it wont do anything until the digestive cycle has been completed. This is like saying roasted chicken pickups immediately restore health and vitality when consumed.
    .
    .

    Don’t be daft. Yes the stomach contains HCL, but is it so concentrated that it can immediately break down food the INSTANT it enters the stomach? I don’t think so.
    .
    .

    Are those bars some kind of combustible material? Is Jenson’s stomach a furnace? If yes, ok. Valid. He can recharge mid-battle via those bars. If no, its invalid.
    .
    .
    .
    @Lowk
    Couldn’t it be due to the fact that the method he receives energy throught food is augmented as well?
    The Sarif Series 8 Energy Converter gives users the ability to maximize the energy available to any and all of their neuroaugmentations by transforming ordinary food to energy within augmentation-specific cells. With practice, these cells can increase in number and efficiency, ensuring that energy will always be there when needed.

    ~~
    .
    Does it speed up digestion? If no,eating bars midfight won’t do a damn thing. Eating a meal like an hour before the fight could be worth mentioning, but it probably won’t contribute to the greater scheme of things.

  70. Watchdog Lowk July 22, 2013 at 1:21 am -      #72

    “Does it speed up digestion? If no,eating bars midfight won’t do a damn thing. Eating a meal like an hour before the fight could be worth mentioning, but it probably won’t contribute to the greater scheme of things.”
    -
    Well it states the things that break the food down increase in efficiency, the augment is repsonsible for helping speed up recharge time, and isn’t exactly a regular human digestive system kind of point to yeah doesn’t it?
    But yeah don’t really see how it matters much.

  71. andrew July 22, 2013 at 1:51 am -      #73

    cananatra – they arent small fridges and empty dumpsters though, and he manipulates them whilst holding them off of the ground, and can throw them significant distances with enough for to kill opponents (augmented or not). the kind of dumpster we see him lift should weigh somewhere in the region of 270kg empty. i dont know about the fridges.
    -
    in any case – the point i was making (though i over emphasised it somewhat) is that he can lift masses and manipulate them without significant stress or risk of injury to himself.
    -
    (i am trying to prevent this from becoming a stomp, since its my first suggestion up, and jensen doesnt have much support)

  72. Mea quidem sententia July 22, 2013 at 4:44 pm -      #74

    tyrannicuslictorface Post #71
    Watchdog Lowk already supported this point. Sorry (not really), but just because you don’t like what canon says does not mean it doesn’t work that way.
    ——————–
    •Adam’s dermal armor appears to be made up of carbon nanotubes.
    •”Standard single-walled carbon nanotubes can withstand a pressure up to 25 GPa without deformation. They then undergo a transformation to superhard phase nanotubes. Maximum pressures measured using current experimental techniques are around 55 GPa. However, these new superhard phase nanotubes collapse at an even higher, albeit unknown, pressure.
    The bulk modulus of superhard phase nanotubes is 462 to 546 GPa, even higher than that of diamond (420 GPa for single diamond crystal).[54]”
    ——————–
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube#Hardness
    ——————–
    •The sprint enhancement allows Adam to run 7.5 m/s, or 16.8 mi/h. That’s not really all that impressive.

  73. Cananatra July 22, 2013 at 5:17 pm -      #75

    Appears? You have a source for that? Also hardness is not a measure of an items durability to impact.

  74. andrew July 22, 2013 at 5:59 pm -      #76

    deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Augmentations_(DX3)#Dermal_Armor
    -
    ” The structure of the plating is a phased composite; the base is a microfiber weave made from carbon nanotubes suspended in a dilatant (or shear-thickening) fluid. When kinetic energy from a physical blow or a weapon discharge strikes the plating, the fluid becomes rigid, deflecting the impact shock. Heat and electromagnetically-conductive elements in the armor matrix serve to dissipate damage from fire-related or energized trauma.”
    -
    the technobabble is copypasted from the games description.
    -
    what should be noted is that this armoured layer is very thin, and doesnt really allow him to “tank” damage in a traditional sense.

  75. Mea quidem sententia July 22, 2013 at 6:13 pm -      #77

    Cananatra Post #75
    •I’ve never played the game. I assume the information is found in-game, which I’m having trouble finding because people seem to like playing without dermal armor. It helps I said “appears”.
    •Hardness is but one type of durability. I understand hard materials can be brittle, such as tungsten. CNT has superior tensile strength to stainless steel and kevlar, if that helps any. More can be found below.
    ——————–
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube

  76. Mea quidem sententia July 22, 2013 at 6:18 pm -      #78

    andrew Post #76
    •Well, a standard, single-walled nanotube can withstand pressure up to 25 gigapascals (GPa).
    •It appears SWNTs are 1 nanometer in diameter.
    ——————–
    www.nanocyl.com/en/CNT-Expertise-Centre/Carbon-Nanotubes/Single-wall-Nanotubes-SWNT

  77. Cananatra July 22, 2013 at 6:21 pm -      #79

    I’m familiar with carbon nanotubes mate. The problem with them is in how they are bonded for use in armour. As Andrew has usefully provided the specs for how that is done we can see the weakness is the fluid in this case. If it’s tolerance is exceeded the armour fails.

  78. Mea quidem sententia July 22, 2013 at 6:25 pm -      #80

    Cananatra Post #79
    •I’m glad you are familiar with them. I’m not, so the more I learn, the better.

  79. tyrannicuslictorface July 22, 2013 at 8:42 pm -      #81

    @Mea quidem sententia
    tyrannicuslictorface Post #71
    •Watchdog Lowk already supported this point. Sorry (not really), but just because you don’t like what canon says does not mean it doesn’t work that way.
    ~~~

    You STILL don’t get it do you? Canon or not, if it cannot be performed in accordance with logic and the laws of physics, unless that feat has been appropriately cited and explained, it is not possible. Sanguinius is capable of flight as he has been cited as doing so, despite the fact that, unless his bones are hollow and his body mass ridiculously small, it should be logically impossible.
    .
    You have NOT cited if Jenson has a faster rate of digestion than a normal human being, you have NOT cited if this Proenergy Bar thing has been tailored to be broken down near instantaneously for Jenson to make use of it in-combat. Thus, the use of proenergy bars in this match up is INVALID.
    .
    If you can CITE that Jenson is a pink fairy that farts out rainbows and has a hammerspace behind his left ear, than it is VALID regardless of how stupid it seems. However, you have YET to cite or even bother to explain HOW proenergy bars are even valid in a combat scenario.
    .
    Also, since it appears you are incapable of reading the point I replied to contest Lowk’s point. I will requote it.
    .

    @Lowk
    Couldn’t it be due to the fact that the method he receives energy throught food is augmented as well?
    The Sarif Series 8 Energy Converter gives users the ability to maximize the energy available to any and all of their neuroaugmentations by transforming ordinary food to energy within augmentation-specific cells. With practice, these cells can increase in number and efficiency, ensuring that energy will always be there when needed.
    ~~
    .
    Does it speed up digestion? If no,eating bars midfight won’t do a damn thing. Eating a meal like an hour before the fight could be worth mentioning, but it probably won’t contribute to the greater scheme of things.
    .
    .

    Learn to argue points beyond hiding behind technicalities and your frankly stupid interpretation of what canon and game mechanics are.

  80. Watchdog Lowk July 22, 2013 at 9:27 pm -      #82

    “Learn to argue points beyond hiding behind technicalities and your frankly stupid interpretation of what canon and game mechanics are.”
    -
    Um, thanks for the advice?

  81. Mea quidem sententia July 22, 2013 at 9:46 pm -      #83

    tyrannicuslictorface Post #81
    •I see no reason to apply our laws of physics to the Deus Ex universe.
    •I don’t care if you take issue with canon.

  82. tyrannicuslictorface July 22, 2013 at 10:38 pm -      #84

    @Mea quidem sententia
    tyrannicuslictorface Post #81
    •I see no reason to apply our laws of physics to the Deus Ex universe.
    •I don’t care if you take issue with canon.

    ~~

    Is this your first debate on factpile? Forget factpile. Do you know what a source is?

    Canon is only considered valid if you cite the bloody thing with a source or citation. Sanguinius flying is canon based of WH40K fluff and is ALSO valid because sources from the book “Fear to thread” cite him as flying down from a thunderhawk.
    .
    So far all you have been doing is crying out BOOHOO ITS CANON without citing worth a damn. Produce a quote. A website, hell, just bother to EXPLAIN.
    .
    Lowk managed to explain to me that Jenson had some kind of augmentation to allow him to restore energy based on digestion.You on the other hand, managed to do absolutely nothing and assume that everyone on this thread takes the feats and points you make as fact ( Hint: Unless you cite or at least bother to explain. Its completely irrelevant and useless to the argument )
    .
    .
    Oh you mean the Deux Ex universe is not situated on Earth, has differing rules of gravity? Have you seen the factpile WH40K debates? How we calculate the goddamn petaton range of firepower a single Imperial ship can put out? And you say you see no reason to apply the laws of physics to a CONSIDERABLY less fantastic universe?
    .
    .
    I really hope you are new to factpile. This kind of ignorance is astonishing.
    .
    .
    @Lowk

    I apologise, the sentence wasn’t directed at you, it was that monkey Mea quidem. You did fine trying to explain and citing a digestion feat ( wow that sounds dumb ).

  83. Mea quidem sententia July 23, 2013 at 10:25 am -      #85

    tyrannicuslictorface Post #84
    •You already know Watchdog Lowk cited a source, so you asking for one is pointless.
    •The onus is on those who are dismissing what’s canon. Dismissing isn’t an argument, nor is referring to it as a “game play mechanic”.
    •Good for your example.
    •I never said it’s not situated on Earth. I really don’t care where it’s situated. Just because fiction uses same names, &c. doesn’t mean our laws apply to theirs, which you assume and asserted it does.
    •That’s up to you to prove that it applies. If you’re incapable of doing that, it’s no skin off my nose.
    •I pay no attention to WH40K. It never caught my interest. The name is ugly, the characters look ugly and boring.

  84. Mea quidem sententia July 23, 2013 at 10:31 am -      #86

    •Also, I would prefer if you’re going to insult me, to at least do it correct. I am a human, after all, which means I, like you, am an ape.

  85. Mea quidem sententia July 23, 2013 at 10:41 am -      #87

    •”Recharge Rate Upgrade 2
    Upgrade Requirement: Recharge Rate Upgrade 1
    Upgrade Cost: 1 Praxis Point
    Use: Speeds up energy recharge
    Activation: Automatic
    Energy Consumption: None
    Info: The most experienced Energy Converter users will only need 20 seconds for one cell to recharge fully, with no delay before charge-up begins.”
    ——————–
    deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Sarif_Series_8_Energy_Converter

  86. Cananatra July 23, 2013 at 3:20 pm -      #88

    Technically that canon only proves he can absorb energy through augmentations in his stomach. It does not specify the timeframe and thus leaves open to interpretation the line between game mechanics and canon.

  87. Mea quidem sententia July 23, 2013 at 5:37 pm -      #89

    Cananatra Post #88
    •The onus isn’t on me anyway. Calling something a game mechanic or dismissing it just because it’s in the game isn’t an argument.
    •By the same argument, the usage of energy in a short period for the augmentations in-game could be regarded as a game mechanic.

  88. Cananatra July 23, 2013 at 6:18 pm -      #90

    Actually, yes it is. Especially for insta-heal/power-up items in games. Unless you want to suggest Spartan’s can heal instantly while brushing past a wall mounted medkit?
    -
    You see for the most part it wouldnt be an issue as they tend to be clear cut. However this has an ambiguous write up and fairly reeks of game mechanics. Also, just in case you didn’t realise, game mechanics are not considered canon here.
    -
    The energy usage for augmentations would be a game mechanic if he was shown in the cutscenes or other canon not to run low. However since those bars exist, we know canonically, that he does run low.

  89. Mea quidem sententia July 23, 2013 at 9:23 pm -      #91

    •I was the one who doubted, not asserted, nor dismissed such as a game mechanic.
    •Your argument by analogy seems watertight.
    •My only issue is people asserting and/or dismissing something as a game mechanic, simply because it’s in the game.

  90. tyrannicuslictorface July 23, 2013 at 11:27 pm -      #92

    @Mea quidem
    •That’s up to you to prove that it applies. If you’re incapable of doing that, it’s no skin off my nose.
    ~~~~
    Wow are you lost? Do you know what the goal of a debate is? Or did you think this is forum with a different layout?
    .
    @Mea quidem
    •I pay no attention to WH40K. It never caught my interest. The name is ugly, the characters look ugly and boring.
    ~~~
    Irrelevant. If you are too stupid to recognise an example when given, i’ll just find another example from a different setting.
    .
    @Mea quidem

    •You already know Watchdog Lowk cited a source, so you asking for one is pointless.
    ~~~
    Lowk did the right thing by citing a source,is he your proxy account or your pet? If no, why are you expecting people to cite your own points for you?
    .
    @Mea quidem
    •I never said it’s not situated on Earth. I really don’t care where it’s situated. Just because fiction uses same names, &c. doesn’t mean our laws apply to theirs, which you assume and asserted it does.
    ~~~
    When you shoot a bullet in deus ex, does the casing fall to the ground? Gravity. Does the casing fall to the ground slower then normal or punches a hole in the floor? Higher and lower gravity. All these features must be taken into account (eg. Jenson is stronger as he lives and works on a planet with higher gravity, thus he has a denser skeletal and muscular frame ). I’d be glad to hear what ABNORMALLY DIFFERENT physics Deus Ex has when compared to our real life laws oh physics.
    .
    @Mea quidem
    •Also, I would prefer if you’re going to insult me, to at least do it correct. I am a human, after all, which means I, like you, am an ape.
    ~~~
    So far you have been incapable of recognising or interpreting examples and basic logic or even the basic rules of factpile. I stand corrected, you are less than an ape.
    .
    @Mea quidem
    •My only issue is people asserting and/or dismissing something as a game mechanic, simply because it’s in the game.
    ~~
    Now this statement has convinced me that you are a complete idiot and not some ignorant newcomer to factpile. Using that wonderful logic, a battle between Master Chief and Samus would end up with the Chief winning simply because he can instantly heal himself to full health whenever he brushes his hand across a medical kit ( game mechanics ). And that kratos must kill all unique enemies via a quicktime event ( game mechanics ).
    .
    Get this into your thick skull. Game mechanics are completely irrelevant.Canon is only relevant if a source or feat is cited to prove it ( Kerrigan is considered a potent psychic because it has been feated that she created some kind of localised lightning storm ) otherwise, it is considered irrelevant and not useful to the duel. Feats are the most solid examples and cannot be bypassed or undercut unlike Canon. If Jenson has been sourced as capable of farting exploding pink butterflies from his mouth, he certainly can PROVIDED he has a feat that explicitly describes him as being capable to do so.
    .
    .
    Learn to debate.

  91. Mea quidem sententia July 24, 2013 at 12:02 am -      #93

    •*yawn*

  92. Mea quidem sententia July 24, 2013 at 12:19 am -      #94

    •Listen, tyrannoclitoruswhatsyourface, I understand you’re not good at debating, so you need to resort to name-calling. It’s fine. I understand you need something to compensate for your penis size, but don’t let it be your ego.
    •Now, if only FP had an ignore button. I’d rather debate with people who know a thing or two about debating. Try not to let that insult you. Nothing personal.

  93. Mea quidem sententia July 24, 2013 at 12:21 am -      #95

    •It’s fine if I get banned after this. I’m expecting it.

  94. Watchdog Lowk July 24, 2013 at 12:22 am -      #96

    Wait is all this still about a cyborg’s digestive system? lol.
    ===
    “I’d be glad to hear what ABNORMALLY DIFFERENT physics Deus Ex has when compared to our real life laws oh physics.”
    -
    They’re stun guns put out more energy per shot then in our known universe. True story… Okay no it might have been a designers joke, or what I hope was a joke.

  95. Cananatra July 24, 2013 at 7:50 am -      #97

    I dont know why this debate is even continuing lowk. It’s fairly clear Motoko has enough important advantages to take Jensen with relative certainty.

  96. Watchdog Lowk July 24, 2013 at 8:47 am -      #98

    Well, Jesen should be able to take a few it given what he’s shown to take. His cloak is more useful since she doesn’t have away to see him. And hes just as fast. But only thing he really has that could do harm is his blade.
    -
    Meanwhile majors strength allows pretty much every hit she manages to land would be devastating, has a definite advantage in mobility, and like wise in durabilty.
    -
    So yeah Major seems to have the advantage.
    Might have been closer if they had been allowed more then just pistols Adam has got some pretty interesting, even the upgrade he gets for his pistol is pretty useful.

  97. Cananatra July 24, 2013 at 9:35 am -      #99

    Well going on other military eyes she would have all the basics such as thermal and night sight. Does Jensons cloak block thermal? Motoko’s does btw, but aren’t both going to be unreliable in the wet?

  98. Watchdog Lowk July 24, 2013 at 9:54 am -      #100

    Here the info on his cloaking
    When activated, the GlassShield Cloaking System augmentation bends the light hitting the user, rendering him practically invisible. The effect will work on any wavelength that is part of the visual spectrum, including laser beams.
    Not sure about in the rain. But there are building around as well.

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