Published on July 6, 2013, by admin - Posted in Duels 76
Suggested by Rookie
From Dragon’s Dogma is Grigori, making his debut on FactPile up against Alduin from Skyrim.
Dragon King against Dragon King.
They fight atop the throat of the world (Skyrim).
Which Dragon will claim the victory?
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Some videos about Grigori:
Grigori appears in the world:
Apparently Grigori have some control over weather (From 2:21):
Final battle against Grigori (at 13:25 Grigori ruin the tower, from 28:35 Grigori nearly ruin the town):
Also some more info about Grigori in-game powers. He can mind control humans and pawns. His special roar can kill ordinary humans and pawns instantly. Now about his spells, because in battle you migh not see them clearly I use other videous to show his spells to you (From 1:38 Frigor, from 8:56 Bolide, from 1:58 Levin):
From 8:57 Holy Furor:
And the wiki: dragonsdogma.wikia.com/wiki/The_Dragon
What special technique do you have for getting your matches posted? I want to know it too…
Also, how long does it usually take to get a match posted for you?
“What special technique do you have for getting your matches posted? I want to know it too…”
I don’t know really. I suggested this match about a month ago.
From my understanding, Alduin from lore is supposed to be far beastlier than the in-game one.
Well, the reason Alduin ended up winning against Kalameet is 1. He’s basically invincible to most things, with the exception of things that are “destined” to kill him, and 2. He can do a lot of crazy stuff with his shouts.
I think the Admin either A. Is sleeping with Rookie(most likely) or B. Consistently likes his match suggestions, and just happened to put up a nice group of them recently.
But, it’s obviously A.
@Rookie post 1: So, like Alduin but a lot less?
” So, like Alduin but a lot less?”
I think yes. But Grigori never cared about the destruction of the world. He travels between worlds to fight with the Arisens and claims their hearts for himself if they die in battle against him or accepted his offer.
Damn rookie, your matches seem to be being posted so quickly! Crazy! You sure your not paying?
“You sure your not paying?”
Well, seeing the info presented I think Alduin could pull a win thanks to shouts. They both have about the same destructive feat of destroying a tower.. alduin nearly razed a whole small town.
” They both have about the same destructive feat of destroying a tower”
I am not so sure about it.
Grigori attacking a tower(From 13:13): www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK3zT4VJcTc
Alduin attacking a tower (from 4:10):
You can see a difference here. It is far from same(IMO). The Alduin probably have the edge in this battle thanks to the shouts, but I doubt that his brute strenght is near to Grigori level.
Grigori seems to be FAR heavier than Alduin. Alduin smashes through the wall of the tower, Grigori plows through the roof.
Alduin doesn’t really like to engage in melee, so Grigori’s brute strength would be mostly moot unless he can fly faster than Alduin.
So what’s preventing this from going the same way as the last Alduin match, seeing as one of them has to get the very Concept of Mortality itself forced upon him before he can be killed ?
“So what’s preventing this from going the same way as the last Alduin match, seeing as one of them has to get the very Concept of Mortality itself forced upon him before he can be killed ?”
This time I am prepared for this)))
Grigori also can be slain only by Arisen hand, so for this fight let’s turn off the immortality. They both can fly, fight, use magic and hurt each other.
If you want more fantasy explanation, let’s say that it is the seneschal (God in Dragon’s Dogma and creater of Grigori) who gives Grigori the right to hurt the Alduin)))
I’m voting Grigori, he destroys the world too, and then he goes to another one and destroys it too, over and over again. Also he’s pretty wise and treats you as his equal while Alduin is an arrogant prick who sorely underestimates you.
Also Grigoru carres this thing inside of his body, so he definatly can hurt Alduin:
“I’m voting Grigori, he destroys the world too, and then he goes to another one and destroys it too, over and over again.”
Yes, but lore-wise Alduin can devour an enire universe, while Grigori can only destroy one world at the time. Also Alduin have Dragon Shouts.
Alduin is the *world* eater, it only says he’ll wipe out Nirn and even then he won’t actually destroy it, just raze the surface to “reset” it. And most shouts are basically just spells, Grigori won’t feel much if you breath fire or ice on him. As was pointed out higher on the page he’s also much, much stronger physically, he destroyed a castle just by landing on it and taking off.
Those ar very minor shouts compared to the rest. Like, Elemental Fury, which greatly increases the speed of the user, or Slow Time, which does exactly what it sounds like. He could use Drain Vitality to weaken Grigori by sapping his strength/health(whatever that is in this context).
Good old Unrelenting Force could definitely stall him, possibly even knock him out of the sky. Then there is the meteor shout and the lighting storm shout.
And that’s just the in-game ones. Shouts are basically a dragon speaking what they want of happen. So Alduin can do a lot more as well.
And whirlewind sprint would allow him to zip through the air.
Also, there is no delay inbetween these shouts if someone is gonna bring that up. The only limitation is for him to say the words. The delay in game for the Dragonborn is a game balancing mechanic.
Imo Fus Roh Da would barely if at all budge him given his size/weight and general sturdiness. When you stab him in the heart as he flies above cloud-level to shake you off, he falls straight down to the ground and all it does is maybe daze him a few seconds while he gets back up. Speaking of in the heart, I’m pretty sure it only “comes out” in the presence of an arisen so Alduin might well have to deal with above mentioned extreme durability.
The way I see it is Al has all those neat fancy powers but ( relatively ) not that much raw power while Grigori is a lot less versatile but has massive amounts of pure strength.
Well since I was a mage/archer/warrior my favorite shout was the one that lowered the armor class and cause DoT. Easier to hurt AND deals continuous residual damage is a no brainer IMO. Couple that with the dragon rap master….
Initial bets with Alduin. But, let’s see how this goes.
It’s barely going at all. But that’s okay, because I know how to attract cynics: With Twilight.
What can Grigori do aside from be big and land on stuff?
“What can Grigori do aside from be big and land on stuff?”
Control over weather. After Arisen nearly kills him, Grigori change the weather around the world.
Powerful abilities (from 28:35 Grigori nearly ruin the town with his magic. From 24:45 Grigori using his most powerful attack)):
He is also have several magic attacks, like meteors, holy attack, lighting.
His roar can kill ordinary persons and pawns.
@Soul at #25
That scene makes sense, or at least the kombat after that.
I could go check for what else both sides can offer or try to gauge their foe quality if it helps.
Would it help?
@Commander Cross- I didn’t watch that scene. I only wanted it to attract people. It seems to have failed.
” so Alduin might well have to deal with above mentioned extreme durability.”
Marked For Death. And if it’s coming out of Alduins mouth, it will hurt a lot more. Fire and Frost won’t hurt especially bad. Whirlwind and Elemental Fury would make Alduin pretty fucking fast. Become Ethereal will make Alduin….ethereal. Detect Life will give Grigori no place to hide. Plus the addition of lightning and meteors coming from the sky that target enemies makes Grigori have to work that much harder. And I would assume Dragonrend would at least stun Grigori. Drain Vitality will do just that. The summon shouts are irrelevant as they outside help. Soul Tear might do some damage depending on Grigoris resistance to soul rape.
Also, all of those shouts and more can be used as fast as it takes Alduin to say three words. Grigori has an obvious size advantage, and I’d say even strength. But Alduin will fly circles around his head, while making him more succeptible to damage and draining his health and magic, becoming untouchable, pelting him with lightning and meteors, and more.
I highly doubt Alduin can use Dragonrend as it’s a concept totally alien to them. It was also developed by mortals, not the dov, so that’s further evidence against its inclusion.
I just thought of that now. Dragonrend is out.
Yeah, Dragonrend is currently the only known shout that dragons can’t do, as it was made by humans using their hatred for the dragons, and their knowledge of what it feels to be mortal.
Even without it, Alduin still has plenty of usable abilities and several advantages over Grigori.
@REAPER -> Marked for Death lowers defense a bit, but nigh-invulnerable minus a bit is still pretty damn sturdy. Or alternatively, MFD lowers *armor*, Grigori doesn’t have armor. Become ethereal also makes you unable to hurt others. I see no reason why the giant bright red dragon with a big power advantage would want to hide. The Arisen can call lightning and meteors down on him, doesn’t really hurt that much. Dragonrend is A: unusable by Alduin and B: useless on non-elder scrolls dragons. Drain Vitality would do fine and I’m not sure if stuff from DD have souls but soul tear would prolly hurt if they do. Grigori can also fly very fast, dunno what makes you think Alduin could blitz him just cause he’s smaller.
Oh also, shouts are magic, so they can be resisted with magic res, Grigori has pretty decent magic res.
Alduin could blitz him with a combination of Slow Time and Battle Fury, with Whirlwind Sprint (Which is only a sprint in name, and the Dragonborn’s usage. Alduin would use Whirlwind Flight or something similar) to close in and back out.
Could Alduin use Bend Will on Grigori ? Does Grigori have any mental resistance feats ?
MFD lowers Armor. Armor meaning damage resistance. Grigori will become more vulnerable.
And are Shouts Magic ? I’m not so sure on that, since TES has magic that is completely different from the Thu’um. Only Dragons and select few people can use Shouts. A LOT more people use Magic.
In-game, Shouts are magic. Other than that, they’re technically a type of magic.
My breton witch is immune to magic and dragon shout do jack shit damage to her, so magic res=shout res.
I would agree that they are game mechanics. They do not use your magic bar and in lore it’s more akin to some sort of “soul”power than grabbing the metaphysical strands of energy. Being subject to magic res should be a balancing issue.
Also marked for death (thanks for the name) whittles away life at the same time. It Lowers durability/causes more damage to be taken, so the fact that G dragon had no armor is moot. It works on creatures without armor, like bears and…. Dragons
As I feared, it seems that Alduin is winning this match too…
Still there is might be one thing that can help Grigori win this battle.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPFJO28x3AI (From 25:59 to 27:20)
Can Alduin protect himself from such magic?
Shouts may not use magicka but they’re still magic. Whether you expand your own magical energy to create fire or command fire into existence with your voice, it’s fire either way and magic res protects from it. My witch dovahkin can even walk through non-magical fire unscathed. Imo if it applies to fire breath it applies to all shouts since they’re the same sort of power.
Still game mechanics. While Shouts technically are called magic, it’s not magic the same way “real” magic of TES is. They’re more an innate ability than something anyone can just pick up, though it is true that anyone can learn it.
The point was Yol Toor Shul ( fire breath ) fire is the same kind of fire as the “flames” spell. Yes it’s a different kind of power, yes it’s a much more powerful attack but it’s still just fire. Thus if your fire resistant you can resist Yol Toor Shul too, sure it’ll hurt more because it’s stronger but you’ll resist it.
” dunno what makes you think Alduin could blitz him just cause he’s smaller.”
The fact that he has two speed increasing shouts and one time slowing shout makes me think that.
Marked for Death will slowly hurt Grigori while making him easier to hurt.
Ans the Shouts are more of a spiritual gift.
I wasn’t ever going to debate the fire shouts because I’m sure Grigori is resistant to fire anyway, he’s a red dragon. Can someone post up some things Grigori is resistant to?
Because Ice Form is able to freeze Flame Atronachs. That’s ice cold enough to freeze fire.
I’m just using fire as an exemple to illustrate my point.
I’ll wait to see some more of Grigori in this debate.
TES magic is powered by souls regardless though.
Enchantments, which are functionally identical to magicka powered spells, are powered by captured souls. Heck, in Oblivion, Enchanted weapons had normal magic spells placed directly on them; they still consumed soul power to use.
Simply put, consistent portrayal of enchantments being functionally the same as “mana magic” while also “soul magic” means that they are the same thing. The fact that “soul” based magic like Shouts are checked against magic resistance just reinforces this.
That’s more than simple game mechanics. That’s consistent canon implication.
In Skyrim, spells are not powered by souls. What’s your point? They’re identical, except they can do completely different things. Shouts are
1) In Skyrim, spells are not powered by souls. What’s your point?
2) They’re identical, except they can do completely different things.
3) Shouts are not soul based.
Yes, normal spells are not powered by souls; they run on mana.
Enchantments, which are normal spells as per Oblivion, however are powered by souls. That’s the link between so called “soul” magic and mana magic.
The end result is that regardless of power source they are still magic and magic resistance blocks both. So the question to how well Shouts will do against Grigori is entirely dependent on his ability to resist magic, cause that’s what the Shouts are; magic.
Shouts are soul based. They are powered by Dragon Souls. Or did you miss the fact that you have to harvest Dragon Souls in order to get new Shouts?
Yes, they do run on souls. But the souls of animals and people. In Skyrim, if a NPC puts up a magic wall, the Shout will still go through. Shouts are just the voice of a dragon. It’s just they way they speak. I see what A is saying, but a battle between dragons is just a verbal debate. Not a magic shootout.
“Can someone post up some things Grigori is resistant to?”
Grigori is resistant to all elements (including ice and holy elements) except for dark element (he is weak against dark element). He is immune to fire, thunder and holy elements.
Anyway, it seems what I must ask again. Can Alduin protect himself from the entropy?(because this spell has enormous range, Grigori was like a half country away, mortally injured and he still was able to cast it and nearly ruin the city).
“Shouts are soul based. They are powered by Dragon Souls. Or did you miss the fact that you have to harvest Dragon Souls in order to get new Shouts?”
Um, no. They aren’t powered by shouts. See, if they were, then anyone could use them to use a shout.
No, how it works in Skyrim, is that you, the Dragonborn, can absorb a dragons soul and use it to gain the knowledge required to use the shout, to understand the word and how to make it a Thu’um.
Its no more magic than normal fire or wind is.
For instance, take the Greybeards. They can’t absorb dragon souls. Yet they are masters of using many different shouts.
Why its so special to be able to absorb a dragons soul is that it makes the process to be able to use the shout instant, since you just learn about how to use the shout from the soul itself. Dragons don’t need souls to use the shouts because its completely natural to them.
“Control over weather. After Arisen nearly kills him, Grigori change the weather around the world.
Powerful abilities (from 28:35 Grigori nearly ruin the town with his magic. From 24:45 Grigori using his most powerful attack))”
I watched the spots you pointed out, and I don’t see how you can say that Grigori ruined the town, or caused those people to age or what not. Do you have any proof he did that?
The Dragon Souls… are a shortcut, you could say. By taking it, the Dragonborn takes some of the inborn knowledge of the Thu’um that every dragon has.
The ruining towns spot, all I saw was black clouds swirling around the town, then some of the buildings crumbling away like in an earthquake. Besides, Alduin is an immortal dragon demigod. He’s not exactly going to age and die…
“I watched the spots you pointed out, and I don’t see how you can say that Grigori ruined the town, or caused those people to age or what not. Do you have any proof he did that?”
But Grigori said it himself: “… this world’s utmost depths…”And you can clearly see that he is doing something with the weather while he talks with Arisen. And after that we see how city starts to crumble and the hole in the earth is open. If not Grigori, who else can do it?
Well, I could see him dying causing devastation, but has he shown this ability any other time in the game, or any other source? Cause, I would just put it down to his dying causing that.
Plus, like itchyness said, I don’t even know how much it would affect Alduin. He is immortal.
“Well, I could see him dying causing devastation…”
That might be so, but the problem is, Grigori survived this battle:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kygt512ZQ2w (from 02:28)
Grigori is just waiting until Senechal summons him again.
1-> the town being ruined isn’t a spell Grigori does, it crumbles because the everfall just opened under it, whether or not he was the one to open I couldn’t say but it wouldn’t really help against a flier anyway.
2-> Entropy can kill immortals too, Arisen don’t age without their hearts and it can kill you anyway.
3-> I’m pretty sure the Ur Dragon isn’t the same as the Red Dragon, they’re both Grigori since that’s a title but they’re not the same individual. The “Grigori” you fight in game is an Arisen who managed to kill his dragon but failed to defeat the Seneschal, he only holds 3 hearts, the Ur Dragon has 28.
“3-> I’m pretty sure the Ur Dragon isn’t the same as the Red Dragon, they’re both Grigori since that’s a title but they’re not the same individual. The “Grigori” you fight in game is an Arisen who managed to kill his dragon but failed to defeat the Seneschal, he only holds 3 hearts, the Ur Dragon has 28.”
There is only one Grigori, as I understand it. Senechal simply grants him new body each time he needs him to test the Arisen. Grigori have multiple bodies, but still there is only one Grigori. If you remember, the Grigori in Savan (current Senechal) past, “our” Grigori and Ur-Dragon Grigori all have the same voices and same bodies, also Ur also acknowledged Arisen, so he knew him before. And since we never met another giant dragon before, it is safe to assume that this is the same Grigori.
Alduin survived the battle with the Dovahkiin. His soul was absorbed by Akatosh to test the world again. So basically like Grigori, if I understand correctly.
When you fight this Grigori, he tells you the pain you’re causing him is the same pain he once caused, ie. he used to be an Arisen and he fought a Dragon. He won that battle and went through the everfall but was unable to beat Savan, the current Seneschal, so he became the Red Dragon who took the dragonforged, the duke’s and your heart. Then you kill him, go through the everfall and face Savan too, and if you lose you become the new Red Dragon of that world. It’s possible the bodies of all Dragons look the same but they definitely aren’t all the same person.
So Grigori could be a Legacy Dragon title of sorts, not too different from the Nolanverse Ras Al’ Ghul(from Batman Begins) or DC Comics’ Dr. Fate, right?
Well Grigori means “watcher” so it could just be a title ( which it is imo ) but we’d have to get a translation of the latin he speaks on the beach at the beginning to be sure. But ya that’s pretty much what I’m saying. Maybe the Dragon just looks the same because Savan made it look like the one he fought, other Seneschals could have made dragons look like whatever they wanted, maybe it’s not even always a dragon, maybe some oddball Seneschal sent Unicorn!Grigori to make find Arisens.
Well now that we’ve discussed the backstory of Grigori. Would anyone care to continue the debate? I’d still like to know if he can resist Alduins many types of attacks.
We’ve pretty much been saying yes for a while.
We may as well continue on and see what further information both sides can offer we can find.
Makes sense to me.
Ok, I’m having some serious issues with the Grigori information.
My major beef comes with the claim he “Changed the weather” and Grigori’s goal.
Lets start with the easy one to get rid of, Grigori’s goal. For starters he doesn’t just kill Arisen, he finds them, and test them. In fact, he doesn’t even test them, The Seneschal does. The Seneschal created “The Dragon” in order to find and track the Arisen, the Gods Canidate aka the next Seneschal.
What irks me is the Entropy claim the most, that wasn’t Grigori. At all. That was the Everfall opening up and the Seneschal basically acknowledging the Arisen. Grigori didn’t destroy the town with magic. The Everfall was unleashed.
Also, that mind control feat? No. Drakes and The Dragon have the ability to manipulate Pawns, not man. Pawns are those without innate will, so possession isn’t really that hard. While the Seneschal claims humans are no different than the pawns, there have been no humans affected by the Drake and Dragons mind control, only pawns.
ONE MORE THING.
The Ur Dragon and Grigori are two different dragons. When an Arisen fails the test against the Seneschal, they become the Dragon. Another Grigori doesn’t share a body, each Dragon is different. In Bitter Black isle you hear Daimon (Arisen gone mad… Thats a different story) conversing with the Dragon, the dragon of that tale being his former lover and owning a female voice.
See, I don’t know much Alduin and what he can do, but Grigori is a powerful dragon. Thats about all I can say.
That’s pretty much how it works ya. Seneschal gets tired of being the omnipotent master of the multiverse ( for some reason that remains alien to me ) so he makes a dragon, dragon attacks villages and cities and wrecks the **** out of them until someone badass ( or stupid ) enough attacks him, then he steals their heart and makes them an Arisen, the badass gets back up, without their heart because willpowa!!! ( someone give them a green lantern ring ) and goes about killing monsters until s/he’s beefed up enough to take the dragon who has meanwhile been curbstomping the rest of the world (apparently for the lolz), then s/he kicks it’s giant fiery butt and the everfall opens, the Arisen jumps in, kills stronger monsters and gathers magic rocks from their corpses, opens a portal to beyond the rift, fights the seneschal and if it decides the Arisen is badass enough assisted suicide occurs and we got a new omnipotent master of the multiverse. The role of Grigori is to “find someone who’s will is strong enough to become Arisen” and to “temper their will into something capable of sustaining the world”. The test of the Seneschal is basically just him checking out your will personally and making sure you know your options and you *really* want to do what you’re doing. So Grigori is essentially a beef gate to screen for people badass enough to fight god.
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