Published on June 20, 2013, by admin - Posted in Duels 103
Suggested by sadot06
For this fight we have Dr. Doom (Marvel) going up against Super Android 17 (Dragon Ball Z)
Fight takes place in Albion from Fable 3. (Map below)
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No prep? Doom lose.
With prep? It’s an entirely different story
Doom gon’ whoop dat ass. Really, I don’t know, I quit watching Dragonball when it quit being good.-
I am just glad to know Albion will be getting destroyed. After Fable 3, it deserves it.
But yeah, stomp one way or the other dependent on if Doom has prep or not
Doom gets punched into space. Like seriously super 17 was fast enough to flash step into space www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC-sXK4HWxc (3:58)
Looks like most DBZ teleports. Does base Doom have any powers beyond his great intellect?, e.g. hes not much of a combatant if he does not have time to device some sort of device?
“Looks like most DBZ teleports”
He wasnt teleporting. That was his movement
“I am just glad to know Albion will be getting destroyed. After Fable 3, it deserves it.”
As for the fight…Eh. Even without prep, Doom is an insanely powerful sorceror that could just send 17 on a one way trip to the sun.
With prep…well Doom’s technology is broken as shit
“That was his movement”
Doesn’t look like it, does the manga confirm this or is there a specific reason outside of that scene so you know it was purely movement?
@Kitten Lord: GT is anime-only, so there’s no manga to go alongside it.
Finding speed feats for Doom is a bitch since he rarely gets his hands dirty, but here are some of the best things I’ve found so far:
Flying alongside and keeping up with Galactus in space:
Trading blows with Iron Man
Casually deflecting Mjolnir
Dodging energy blasts
I thought as much.
Also the Galactus one sounds impressive, I don’t know how fast Galactus was going but assuming his speed there is at a high level as Galactus’ power would suggest Doom is potentially faster. I don’t suppose theres any special amps Doom was under at the time?
And ironman is also pretty damn fast, I don’t know comic iron man but even super-hypersonic+ from the movie is impressive.
•I do not know the best way to determine how fast Super Android 17 traveled from the mountain tops to space in the video provided by Chuck inglish, but I’ll try something.
•On Wikipedia, List of mountains by elevation ranges from 8k to below 1k.
•If I add 8k, 7k, 6k . . . 5 meters, I’ll end up with 36,005 meters. If I average it, I get the following.
•36,005 m. / 9 = 4,000.56 m.
•The next part where Super Android 17 appears is above Earth. Perhaps it could be assumed he’s about at the range of a satellite, which differs in elevation, but Low Earth orbit gives 100 miles.
•100 miles is 161 kilometers, or 161,000 meters.
•4,000.56 m. is located in the troposphere.
•The Kármán line is 62 miles above Earth’s sea level, according to Wikipedia.
•4,000.56 m. is 4.00056 km., or 2.48 mi.
•62 mi. – 2.48 mi. = 59.52 mi.
•100 mi. + 59.52 mi. = 159.52 mi.
•It took Super Android 17 about 5 seconds to travel from his location to space.
•This means Super Android 17 traveled 31.9 mi./s.
That is 114,840 mph, or Mach 149.53.
“Doesn’t look like it, does the manga confirm this or is there a specific reason outside of that scene so you know it was purely movement?”
No Android 17 has ever learned Instant Transmission, which is the only teleportation technique that can be learned by regular characters. Unless you have some source saying its some new teleportation, its a movement speed feat.
In fact its almost exactly what Goku does against Cell, another one of Dr. Gero’s creations.
I’d go for Doom, I’m expecting his force fields to take while he figures a way to catch and kill him.
Dr. Strange tries to use the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak on Doom. Doom doesn’t give a fuck with his magic.
Sable uses a weapon previously able to fuck Dooms day up, his armor says lol no because it adapted to the weapon.
Instant transmission is what it looks like, but at the same time it does not have to be instant transmission either, just both teleports have a similar look to them.
“Unless you have some source saying its some new teleportation, its a movement speed feat.”
That’s not how it works, it appears to be a teleport to me, just because your interpretation is different does not make my one require “more” evidence than yours does, unless you have outside proof proving its not a teleport and it is factually a speed feat.
Several things suggest its teleportation, like the Cloud cover not being influenced in any way by him going through it, no frictional heat or movement of his clothing, etc, theres no shockwave or visible burst of energy the seconds we see after he moves. He disappears and re-appears just as if he was Goku using IT. What this method of teleportation is must be a new Android thing.
Hulk smash Doom? No Doom Smash Hulk
The Might of Doom
Kitten Lord Post #16
•It appears to be a teleport. Don’t let my agreeing with you cause you to think that you’re free from the onus, however. You made the claim that it looks like teleportation, so yes, that is how it works.
•Prove also that the people who worked on GT were concerned with clouds moving, “frictional heat”, shock waves (in space?), &c. Funnily, we don’t see this occurring with Goku, either, who was traveling at such speed. Escape velocity and all.
•Surely, you can demonstrate an example of these happening in GT elsewhere if such is the case.
“Instant transmission is what it looks like, but at the same time it does not have to be instant transmission either, just both teleports have a similar look to them.”
Wait when did 17 learn to teleport? Do you have a something from the movie stating it’s a teleport?
If you watch the scene itself, he makes exactly the same sound as he disappears/reappears as Goku does every time he uses instant transmission, which he does later on in the scene posted at about 6:50. Combined with the aforementioned pointers, its unlikely and mostly baseless to claim this is simply speed.
I more interesting question that should be asked here is what is the precedent that this is regular movement? Because watching the scene he does not do anything else comparable. Infact his speed is fairly modest.
“who worked on GT were concerned ”
I don’t have to prove they were concerned with anything, no more than you have to prove those who made GT made that scene a speed feat or a teleportation one, all we have is what is shown and common elements of breaking the atmosphere and moving at speed are simply not there, if they were your side would have “more” evidence, as it stands though their not there, so all you really have is your own claim at the moment.
The people who worked on GT have no qualms as that scene shows about showing explosive energy either form movement or impact, Goku gets smashed through multiple stone piecies that explode with smoke. Even their clothes move from certain impact etc, so trying to claim GT laziness does not work for all accounts, nor does it automatically make it a movement feat.
“If you watch the scene itself, he makes exactly the same sound as he disappears/reappears as Goku does every time he uses instant transmission, which he does later on in the scene posted at about 6:50. Combined with the aforementioned pointers, its unlikely and mostly baseless to claim this is simply speed.”
Again when and where did 17 learn to teleport? Was it stated anywhere on the movie?
Anime flash steppy nonsense is pretty common in dbz, teleporting not so much.
Kitten Lord Post #21
•You made the claim. The onus of proof is on you. Shifting the burden of proof is a fallacy.
•If you’re not going to prove your claim, then retract your statements.
•I already told you it looks like teleportation. Don’t give me any of this “your side” nonsense.
•You’re assuming that if the people who worked on GT showed explosive energy, smoke, clothes moving that it’d follow that they would have done the same with clouds moving, “frictional heat”, shock waves, &c.
•Goku would have needed to travel at escape velocity to exit Earth. There’s none of what you asserted about Super Android 17.
•While you’re at it, can you show at any time Super Android 17 ever teleported, even if only several meters? That would really help your teleportation argument, which as I said before, appears to be the case.
if he was teleporting they would have stated instant transmission. so no.
“You made the claim”
I made the suggestion and gave reasons for it. So far there is no evidence for the initial claim that the feat was a speed feat. You don’t understand burdon of proof, I don’t have to prove he teleported unless I am positive. So far my point is it looks more like a teleport in every way, especially when compared to IT and that there is no evidence of speed.
Complaining about other entities not showing correct implications for speed is nice and all but it does not prove your case and assertion that this feat was a speed one either. And other precedents within the scene itself suggest otherwise, at no other point does he appear to go at mach 150.
“While you’re at it”
I may do so eventually if I want to assert for certain that this was a teleport but until I see stronger evidence beyond a claim that it was movement speed I am not inclined to. Do you have scenes where he clearly goes mach 150 or even close outside of this one?
“Was it stated anywhere on the movie?”
I don’t know, maybe somewhere in the movie it is stated whether he used teleport or moved mach 150, more information would be useful however.
“they would have stated ”
Who? Who would have to state IT for it to be a teleport? Who even says its IT?
No prep? Super Android 17 should win this.
Heres Super Android 17 taking on the Z Fighters:
0:28-Super Android 17′s destructive power.
1:18-Tanks a blast from Super Saiyan Vegeta.
1:52-More of 17′s destructive power.
3:10-Machine gun built into his arm.
4:21-Using impressive combat speed against Vegeta.
•You made a proposition. To be fair, Chuck inglish did assert it as a “flash step” first, so I do retract what I said about you being the first to assert.
•To counter this, he can demonstrate the following.
1. There are only a few types of teleportation abilities in the Dragon Ball series.
2. These abilities are confined only to a few characters.
3. Canon makes no mention of Super 17 being able to teleport through any means of any of these abilities.
•Once reasons are given to demonstrate why Super 17 didn’t teleport, the onus is on you.
•I wouldn’t know of any other time Super 17 traveled past high hypersonic speeds, as I have never watched GT. This, of course, is not a counter to the speed feat I wrote, as that would be an argument from ignorance.
•There are others who have given Super 17 speed feats, however, which have also been categorized at high hypersonic speeds. A Google search may help.
“Who? Who would have to state IT for it to be a teleport? Who even says its IT?”
the rules of the universe. no one in dbz has the ability to teleport except for the ones who use IT. never once has someone used teleportation that wasn’t related to IT as far as i know. and since this is a universe that uses flash steps CONSTANTLY. (every single battle someone flash steps.) your argument doesn’t have a leg to stand on
“Instant transmission is what it looks like, but at the same time it does not have to be instant transmission either, just both teleports have a similar look to them.”
Or you could stop assuming its something a character has never done before and prove it.
“That’s not how it works, it appears to be a teleport to me, just because your interpretation is different does not make my one require “more” evidence than yours does, unless you have outside proof proving its not a teleport and it is factually a speed feat.”
The character has not displayed the ability or even the knowledge of teleportation techniques existing. He and many other characters do the exact same disappearing act since forever.
“If you watch the scene itself, he makes exactly the same sound as he disappears/reappears as Goku does every time he uses instant transmission…”
And whenever anyone goes fast and disappears in the series at all.
Going “pshing” does not mean you can teleportlol.
“Who even says its IT?”
Goku and Cell, even in the Cooler movie they point it out when MetaCooler used Instant Transmission.
Since I already typed “pshing”, if I put it in my next post will I teleport there or am I just making two posts…
Maybe I ‘ported to the bottom of my own post!
“That is 114,840 mph, or Mach 149.53.”
Mach 150.87 actually, but doesn’t really make much difference.
Hotlinked images don’t work.
In that image where he dodged that blow from Hulk, was he teleporting?
Doom is pretty broken even w/o prep. Going with Victor to be…. The Victor
“he can demonstrate the following”
1. That does not suggest this is not one of them.
2. Its your assertion here that a character has to be confirmed to have a teleport for us to be able to suggest a move we have seen is one, I don’t follow your reasoning, can you explain?
3. Canon makes no mention of him going mach 150 either, thing is, based on that scene is “looks” like he did teleport.
“Once reasons are given to demonstrate why Super 17 didn’t teleport”
In a way, but this has yet to happen. Saying “well there’s only a few confirmed teleporters”, does not counter or deter Super Android 17 form being one of them, neither does the fact there are only a couple of named teleports. Canon does not have to specifically mention in text or speech for a character to be capable of something seen, which would also cover mach 150 movement as well anyway, leaving us at the same crossroad.
“character has never done before ”
Which suggests you have other showings of mach 150 from Super Android 17?
“The character has not displayed the ability ”
Discounting this scene, maybe not but the same can be said for that sort of speed claimed.
“And whenever anyone goes fast and disappears in the series at all.”
It would be useful if you cited “timing” for your videos, would make viewing them easier but true, maybe that noise is overused, but it does not counter the fact its very similar in this specific scene to Gokus own teleport. It does not take away from the fact that this could still be a teleport.
“Goku and Cell”
That does not suggest them not mentioning it automatically means said character does not teleport either.
“Since I already typed “pshing”, ”
pshing is simply a word you’ve associated with the noise relevant to teleporting in DBZ and in that scene, I don’t think you typing it allows you to teleport, although if that word is also one you want to use for you jumping to a specific DBZ conclusion with vague evidence that’s fair enough.
“since this is a universe that uses flash steps CONSTANTLY”
Your leaning on affiliation fallacy somewhat but the fact the universe uses what your coining as a flash step is all well and good but does not prove without any doubt this is one of them. Movement has a lot of physical attributes relevant to it that I listed above, and although its true GT animation may not take it into account, this odes not counter those facts that if it had them this would be far more identifiable as movement.
god damn it. i told myself i wasn’t gonna go in dbz threads anymore i promised i’d stay way. i just wanted to drop in and say “super 17 loses by being non canon” everyone would laugh have a few smiles but nooooooo here we go.
its not association fallacy, its common sense. if dbz character use ki blasts all the time and i see an energy blast of course i’m gonna know its a ki blast unless stated otherwise. so when i see that thousands of character in a series can flash step why the hell would i assume in one scene that someone randomly teleported even though the character has never once shown any knowledge of how to teleport, and the only characters in the entire series that actually know how to teleport are the ones using instant transmission. their is literally no evidence to support that scene is teleportation and not a flash step.
“its not association fallacy”
Yes it is, your associating other characters, even many of them with this one, and this one scene that were talking about. Your also not appreciating the difference between a flash step over maybe a mile or two at best, which I am assuming is what your referring to as the “norm” and one that covers possibly hundreds of miles.
” their is literally no evidence to support that scene is teleportation ”
The fact there’s no physical trails or related energy releases required, the fact it makes the same noise and the fact to our perception Android 17 disappears and re-appears in exactly the same fashion as Goku using IT suggests there is actually some evidence and for the same reasons, less for regular movement.
Also to add to the argument on how GT displays graphically certain physics effects, when Gohan or whoever it is, is falling from space there is some light coming from him as he falls, suggesting that actually, at least in atmosphere GT animation shows “some” semblance of speed.
Flash steps aside, whats the precedence on Super android 17 flash stepping hundreds of miles? Hell anyone flashstepping straight to space?
through space i don’t remember, goku flash stepped half way across a planet once. and everyone who flash steps in dbz makes that sound. it happens all the time. you have no legitimate argument kitten. secondly you are taking a move that a character has never, not even a single time demonstrated the ability of knowing and trying to apply it to a scene where he is doing something that we see in dragon ball all the time.
future android 17 flash stepping
“Which suggests you have other showings of mach 150 from Super Android 17?”
When did I say I did? All I said was that he wasn’t teleporting.
“Discounting this scene, maybe not but the same can be said for that sort of speed claimed.”
He has shown the ability to move fast, the feat shows an improvement on that.
“…maybe that noise is overused…”
“maybe” he says.
“…but it does not counter the fact its very similar in this specific scene to Gokus own teleport. It does not take away from the fact that this could still be a teleport.”
Except your argument centers around one small trait of the technique, you did not show any of the other qualities of it.
It could be, if you could make it seem more like a teleport. And that the character in question could ever teleport, or had the knowledge of such a thing existing, or some character actually saying its a form of teleportation.
“That does not suggest them not mentioning it automatically means said character does not teleport either.”
Since the only thing that really separates Instant transmission from any other disappearing act is someone saying its indeed teleportation, I say it does sugest exactly that.
WIthout the evidence that says that it is indeed a teleport, how could it be a teleport?
“pshing is simply a word you’ve associated with the noise relevant to teleporting in DBZ and in that scene…”
I made up the word, yes, but you’re the one using the sound effect as proof for you’re argument.
“…to a specific DBZ conclusion with vague evidence that’s fair enough.”
I’m following a trend established by multiple hundreds of DB episodes. You’re making up a completely new ability for a character and then saying you’re right without providing additional evidence.
But If you feel sound effects are vague, why use them?
I’ll fix the hotlinked ones, my bad.
as to the dodge….I’d honestly have to say likely a teleport….pretty sure teleport.
Strange vs Doom bands of cyttorak scan
Doctor Strange Sorcerer Supreme and Doctor Druid vs Doctor Doom’s good side. Both of them are boned until Doom intervenes against Doom. For the honor of Doom..
one more scan coming in this set
Even after seeing some of Doom’d feats, I don’t see how he wins. I mean, Super 17 is supposed to be stronger than Buu, correct? And Buu was crazy strong!
Doom survived this
the Mad Celestials blasted him and he survived….because…he’s Doom
“When did I say ”
You said you didn’t like me claiming something a character has not done before, hence why I asked for more showings of what your claiming, otherwise its a double standard in your case, only your missing the point of my argument which is you cant assume. Your saying its not teleporting but you cant prove its speed either apparently.
“the feat shows an improvement ”
Where did this suddenly come from? seems as sudden and random as an outlier as teleportation which is looks more akin to. Although, he is like a 5 episode character apparently so pretending you have a long precedent for him is dishonest imo.
“make it seem more like a teleport”
It does though, how much more like a teleport can it be? it makes the same sound as Gokus, and you see a guy disappear and re-appear without showing transition. On the other hand, you have nothing there that makes it look like movement, you have no transition or the physical anomalies that go with moving “that” fast.
“how could it be a teleport?”
The same way it could be movement, based on what we see in the show. It was not stated to be speed either.
“You’re making up a completely new ability ”
No, teleportation is not “new” for DBZ, the fact its a different type from one you know does not instantly make teleportation impossible for the Android. Also following a trend is nice and all but you don’t have a precedent for this example.
Seemed to have lost my post unless its awaiting moderation but ill re-do it to some degree, basically;
“through space i don’t remember, goku flash stepped half way across a planet once”
I assume this is long before he actually got IT? So your trying to claim some sort of precedent for something when you cannot even recall a scene like it and only one other scene that resembles it somewhat.
“have no legitimate argument ”
Of course I have, I am arguing against the jump to conclusions from such an ambiguous scene. Considering a lot of physical factors are not present and considering all we see is a guy disappear and re-appear over a vast distance, beyond most there’s no precedent. Trying to shoehorn all fleshsteps under one banner and saying “its the same” is a bit of a generalisation as well, considering apparently according to your own recollection you cannot think of a flash step over such a distance.
Physics taken into account, its impossible for him to have gone that fast, so far without friction, heat or even smoke and in a universe that has teleportation and beings who can use it its not a surprising idea to think he teleported considering to lack of evidence for “movement” and physical processes. And although its true GT may not take everything into account, they take a lot into account from explosions, physical forces etc. Even on his way back down from the atmosphere gohan or w/e his name is was glowing as if he was hot.
Regardless, the lack of physical pressure or shockwaves or w/e is still lacking, if they were there then movement would have been obvious but as it stands, its just conjecture from people who think its just a flash step, just because “flash steps happen”, well so does teleportation. I am yet to be convinced its impossible Android had a teleportation.
Either way, I am on the fence and leaning towards the evidence of teleportation until those who are so strongly for movement prove it was movement beyond conjecture, affiliation etc.
after math of the Mad Celestials attack on Doom
I’m happy the admin posted my match. Sad Kitten Lord is trying to derail it with his trolling. We get it. You hate DBZ.
Anyway, I’m glad Doom has the feats to make this match interesting. My money’s on Super 17 for now.
I mean can’t super 17 just speed blitz dr doom? Or super 17 could just spam these www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC-sXK4HWxc (3:31) their crossing the earth at insane speeds and beam’s blast radius can be seen from space.
Even if I don’t help Doom win if I can make the fight award worthy I feel like I represented him well. It’s a fun match though likely more fair than you’re average DBZ vs Marvel fight.
just going to reiterate the Mad Celestials scan….
Is anyone else’s Factpile just slowing right the Hell down?
“I am yet to be convinced its impossible Android had a teleportation.”
This is a clear case of shifting the Burden of Proof, Kitten Lord. It is the positive claim that requires evidence, not the negative claim. You say SA17 had teleportation, then you must prove it, as possession of an ability is a positive claim. We can say “it might not be teleportation, characters have disappeared because of sheer speed before”, and that is enough of an argument to disprove teleportation without further evidence. Simply because you are not supporting a character does not mean you still don’t have to prove a claim made about his moveset.
I’m having the same problem mainly with this thread.
“just going to reiterate the Mad Celestials scan….”
And how powerful was that blast supposed to be?
it took a guy who’s more powerful than Galactus to beat them so….more than anything 17′s ever done.
“Is anyone else’s Factpile just slowing right the Hell down?”
Aye, both my own and Ammo/kyu is as well. It must be server side.
“This is a clear case of shifting the Burden of Proof”
No, the initial “claim” was that the Android was fast, the fact I suggested, rather than affirmed that it looked more like a teleport does not automatically shift Burdon of proof to me, it still remains with the side who believe it is speed. Until I want to affirm it is a teleport without a doubt however, I do not have to prove it without any doubt, just point out the things as I have that make it look like one. If anything, trying to make me prove it is teleportation is in fact classic shifting of burdon of proof, because me suggesting another option was instantly met with “prove its teleport” while the opposition seems to think they don’t have to prove its speed.
” that is enough of an argument to disprove teleportation without further evidence”
This is what “I” am doing, only instead of saying “it might not be teleportation”, I am saying “it might be teleportation and it may not be speed, because people have teleported before in DBZ”. You cant prove its movement speed any more than I can its teleportation, only I am doing a better job of pointing out similarities with teleportation and why it is not speed. Even if other “speed flashes” have occurred often before, this does not automatically make this exactly the same. To confirm that, there would have to be some text or word of god on other thousands of mile flash jumps, preferably from the same character (Super Android 17 in this case)
“You hate DBZ.”
Not at all, interestingly I have enjoyed some fights and watched the whole thing even if a small piece of it was all that was relevant to the thread. my problem and hate is with affirmation of ambiguous feats, power scaling etc.
“it took a guy who’s more powerful than Galactus to beat them so….more than anything 17′s ever done.”
Sounds like PIS to me and doom being prepared for his bout with celestials. And besides that’s not a way to quantify the attack that doom tanked
Kitten Lord Posts #33, 44
•There’s Instant Transmission, but there’s no indication Super 17 knows this, thus no reason to believe he used it.
•There’s Sonic Warp, but only Frieza demonstrates this ability and that’s not teleportation.
•There’s Wild Sense, but Super 17 wasn’t countering an attack, so it’s not that.
•It’s not Bunkai Teleport, as the only user is the one who invented the technique.
•Instant Movement? Maybe, but it needs to be proved it’s that. It also appears to be only in Z, not GT.
•Then there’s Zanzoken, which Super 17 is said to have according to Dragon Ball Wiki, but I’m not certain if that’s so. Still, it seems to be the most logical choice. It’s not regarded as teleportation, but very fast movement.
•My point is that it’s confined only to a few users and of those users, Super 17 doesn’t use any of them for the reasons above. Zanzoken appears to be logical, however, but this is not teleportation.
•I don’t see why that’s relevant, since he demonstrates high speeds anyway. As I said, there are other sources out there that place Super 17 at high hypersonic speeds and I doubt it’s the one I checked out.
•Even if it was teleportation, I don’t see how that changes anything, considering Super 17 would still be traveling distances in little time.
•The ball is in your park to present which movement ability Super 17 has, prove that it’s that particular ability, and demonstrate other times where he’s used such ability.
•Your “friction” argument was shot down earlier. Goku doesn’t adhere to these physics you speak of when he’s traveling escape velocity. Oddly, you’re using this, even though you ignored it for the match with Jedah in it.
GuardianAngel1911 Post #49
•What’s important about that scan?
except he didn’t know he was going into that. Only Valeria Richards knew. He didn’t have any warning other than they told him get out of their way or they kill him, he was just trying to buy the FF time, he wasn’t even 100% sure if he’d come out.
@Mea quidem sententia
it’s just the aftermath of the mad celestial attack I just hadn’t found the scan when I posted the first part above it.
Doom in a fist fight with Namor.
“Oddly, you’re using this, even though you ignored it for the match with Jedah in it.”
Double standards are what Kitten Lord is known for
Doom can convert matter to energy and absorb said energy (and absorb energy period likely)
had the ability to reverse the effects of Ghost Rider’s Penance spell on then Sorcerer Supreme Dr. Voodoo
GuardianAngel1911 Post #58
•It appears Mad Celestials are part of another universe, not 616.
“No, the initial “claim” was that the Android was fast,”
And it was immediately backed up by the precedent established by the entire series. To suggest an equally viable option requires equally viable proof. The only proof you have is: “It kinda looks like teleportation”, which is countered by “It looks like the flash step used throughout the entirety of the series”.
@Mea quidem sententia
They are, they were trying to invade 616, but they were still so powerful it took a future Franklin Richards (basically the One Above All jr.) and Galactus combined to stop them. After the Future Foundation stopped the interdimensional gang of evil Reed Richards’s they were about to send that groups ring leader home, but the Mad Celestials burst through deciding to destroy the earth (and as we now know, the universe) because they could. The fact it took future Franklin Richards (a being so powerful Galactus is scared of him) and Galactus combined to stop them speaks to their power.
“except he didn’t know he was going into that. Only Valeria Richards knew. He didn’t have any warning other than they told him get out of their way or they kill him, he was just trying to buy the FF time, he wasn’t even 100% sure if he’d come out.”
We still have no way to quantify that attack though
“There’s Instant Transmission”
“but it needs to be proved ”
Was”instant movement” a teleport or is that actually movement as the moves name implies? hard to tell, regardless, is there evidence IT is the only teleport in the series?
And your right, it does need ot be proved for us to know what teleport it was beyond a shadow of a doubt, just like movement would have to be proven as well.
“he demonstrates high speeds anyway”
Not mach 150 speeds apparently, you cant simply generalise “high speeds” and then this feat because you don’t see “speed” which requires seeing him travel distance and we don’t see him “travel distance, we simply know he goes from A to B. When he demonstrates regular speed you actually see him flying across the mountains in that very scene and towards his foes, you can somewhat see his transition and his flight.
” don’t see how that changes anything”
Your right, I am not saying it would. I simply don’t like the idea people are claiming strongly for movement when it could just as well imo be a teleport.
“The ball is in your park to present which movement ability ”
Only if I want to affirm its teleport, I honestly do not care, I merely care about the logic that people are using to try and affirm its movement.
“Your “friction” argument was shot down ”
If your referring to your claim that GT does not show physics concerning escape velocity that does not shoot down my argument, it does not change the fact that those physics “should” be present, and that if they were, movement could be more easily affirmed and that their lack, still suggests teleport. GT shows heat on re-entry apparently when Gohan falls to earth.
You’ve listed a lot of different types of teleport, suggesting that a “new” teleport is not impossible since at some point those were.
“even though you ignored it for the match with Jedah in it.”
I don’t recall an argument concerning escape velocity coming up in that thread but you can revive it if you like to discuss this apparent double standard.
“And it was immediately backed up ”
No it was simply claimed, followed by the non sequiter and the nudge to affiliation fallacies that just because flash step is used in the series this automatically makes this a flash step. Teleportation is also used often as well, so my argument based on your logic is just as well backed if I wanted to suggest it is factually teleport.
“which is countered by ”
Its not countered no, it just leaves flashstep and teleport at the same crossroad, they both look similar.
“Double standards are what Kitten Lord is known for”
And your not the only one who squirms or gets upset when my inquisitorial boot stops you from following your fallacious path. My well spoiling friend.
Was”instant movement” a teleport or is that actually movement as the moves name implies? hard to tell, regardless, is there evidence IT is the only teleport in the series?
Instantaneous Movement is considered to be the advanced version of Instant Transmission. The main difference being that a Ki signature is not required for the teleport to lock on to a specific destination.
I see so it is a teleport. Fair enough.
Well I don’t know that. I just know there are two types of teleports. I never did like the GT series, so I won’t argue for or against it. I just wanted to bring it to the people’s attention.
No I meant instant transmission and instant movement are both teleports? Instant movement is not just really fast moving?
Oh, yes that’s right.
Just to reaffirm that it is in fact a teleport, the person using it can take others with them, so long as they are in contact with one another.
no it sits right at more powerful than anything shown in DBZ since their sociopathic Marvel Odin+ tier entities with no morals and no history of holding back.
then again it’s probably an outlier.
Kitten Lord Post #65
•As has been said, Instant Movement is a teleport.
•If we rule out teleportation, it can only be movement speed, just like if we rule out movement speed, it’s teleportation.
•I used “high speeds” as a placeholder because I don’t know the calculations others have done to determine Super 17′s speed, but they have stated he’s capable of relativistic speeds.
•The accurate speed to me is unknown.
•Should this be teleportation anyway, covering that much distance in 5 seconds is still impressive.
•It’s still a problem, as Goku was launched at escape velocity. The descriptions you apply to Super 17 must also be applied to Goku.
•Since such is not the case, there is no reason to use physics as a way of determining what’s going on.
•Looking at Super 17′s information on Dragon Ball Wiki, it says he has Afterimage Technique and that he’s seen using it on Vegeta. That’s Zanzoken, so I’m sticking with that.
•This is pretty much an impasse. If you want to your final opinion in, you’re more than welcome to. I just don’t think we’ll be changing each other’s minds.
“Should this be teleportation anyway, covering that much distance in 5 seconds is still impressive.”
It is, although teleportation sort of takes out distance as being impressive per say, since technically your not really “covering” that distance, a teleport takes it out of the equation but it would indeed be a fast one yes.
“It’s still a problem, as Goku was launched at escape velocity. The descriptions you apply to Super 17 must also be applied to Goku.”
At first glance it seems he was (I think its Gohan or whoever isn’t it? wasn’t Goku in hell at that exact point? I don’t recall) but theres a point in that video that makes it look like he is still in the upper reaches of the atmosphere, theres like a blue sky and cloud cover in the backdrop. At around 4:09 I wonder if hes broken Earths gravity yet or if hes just leaving the atmosphere. The camera angle is odd, on what hand it looks like hes out of the planet, on the other theres blue skies behind him and clouds.
“Since such is not the case, there is no reason to use physics as a way of determining what’s going on.”
Perhaps but I was simply pointing out that if those physics were there, it would make it far more likely it is movement speed. Without those things regardless whether or not GT would take them into account its far harder to affirm.
“I just don’t think we’ll be changing each other’s minds.”
Probably not, we can agree to disagree. ill probably leave it alone now since the discussion is not necessarily that relevant to whether Android beats Doom anyway.
i wanted to post this yesterday but couldn’t get on. kitten your argument is that the sound made him teleporter. this is why you are wrong
“Correlation implies causation
This type of argument claims that since A is associated with B, then A causes B.
Example: “Afterimages, blurry images, and speed lines usually are used in manga and comics to denote speed. Therefore, anything drawn with afterimages and blurry effects must be moving very fast.”
This argument ignores the possibility that the said effects were added for some other reason, or that they are simply there to exaggerate the object’s movement rather than to imply vast supernatural speed”
No I am saying the sound “suggests” it may be a teleport, which is different to an affirmation. There’s nothing wrong with a suggestion based on several virtues. It is completely true that the way this was displayed is almost exactly the same in both sound and animation to a instant transmission. To say it defiantly was a teleport considering other things make that sound would be fallacious but then so would assuming its a flash step or instant movement.
Its interesting to note that your example in the fallacy sounds a lot like, if not equel to what the claimants for the “hes going fast” are saying concerning it looking like a flash step as well, only their more affirming it. There’s still no more proof that it was movement speed than it is a teleport, infact were we to toss out the physical requirements for said speed because as Mea said GT may not take it into account the proof for both is the same.
false. we are saying that a character who uses super speed was using super speed. you’re suggesting that a character is using teleportation because the sound is similar to teleportation and the lines are similar to teleportation.
That’s circular logic, your saying your right because your right basically. You cant prove it was super speed, which funnily enough, often sounds exactly the same as a teleportation.
You cant prove superspeed so stop claiming he was using superspeed until you can prove it. Whats your basis that it is superspeed? Do you have one or are you just claiming it because it sounds good?
And stop saying “you are saying”, I am not, I am saying there’s just as much evidence to suggest either one. And were GT to use real physics in their animation schemes concerning someone moving at said speed, less evidence for movement speed. Its only GT’s animation or lacktherof that keeps this as a crossroad rather than proving teleportation.
“I assume this is long before he actually got IT? So your trying to claim some sort of precedent for something when you cannot even recall a scene like it and only one other scene that resembles it somewhat.”
well considering the fact that the feat its self is only 150 and dbz characters have had faster feats than that since the namek saga no speed like that is not unheard of? and yeah it was before he even got ssj1
ah well if thats the case. we know for a fact that original android 17 had super speed. on the other side of the argument he has never once shown the ability to teleport. we see super 17 travel a far distance in a short amount of time. what is the logical conclusion?
I have not seen much beyond 150 feats, theres probably one off the top of my head that’s clearly above it concering Gotenks but not enough to say this is without a doubt speed concerning Super Android 17, we were talking about flashsteps. Quite often when displaying speed you actually see the character or their trails, Gotenks being a good example of someone going extremely fast.
It sounds to me like theres not a lot of precedent for flash steps across long distances, not hundreds of miles long and on top of that, even if there were that does not instantly make this a flash step.
“we know for a fact that original android 17 had super speed”
We know he can move quickly, based on some other scenes in that video where you actually see him move from point A to point B possibly hypersonic, but mach 150 is quite a ways along then and that still does not throw out the fact that it still looks and sounds like a teleport.
“we see super 17 travel a far distance in a short amount of time. what is the logical conclusion?”
That’s a loaded question, its like me saying “we see Super 17 disappear and then re-appear without seeing the transition in between and making the same sound as other popular teleports, whats the logical conclusion!”
The logical conclusion is so far there’s little more evidence for either, slightly more for teleportation.
“no it sits right at more powerful than anything shown in DBZ since their sociopathic Marvel Odin+ tier entities with no morals and no history of holding back.”
How so when it couldn’t even kill doom or even cause any damage to the surrounding area.
long distance flash step by goku in namek saga
Is that the one you were referring to? I cant gauge the distance from those four scans alone, I don’t know how far apart they are but this scene has something different about it compared to the one concering Super Android which is context, it actually says he “moved” that fast and actually shows him starting to move. Theres also the fact Goku is the main character is a lot more fleshed out and has more showings, wheras Super android 17 is like a few episodes worth a character.
“Is that the one you were referring to? I cant gauge the distance from those four scans alone, I don’t know how far apart they are but this scene has something different about it compared to the one concering Super Android which is context, it actually says he “moved” that fast and actually shows him starting to move. Theres also the fact Goku is the main character is a lot more fleshed out and has more showings, wheras Super android 17 is like a few episodes worth a character.”
no its another one. i don’t remember which issue of the manga it is specifically but if you want i can find it. in that one it specifically states that he is on the other side of the planet it shows him flying then suddenly his body goes all blur and then he’s there. and well you’re half right about that. you could probably power scale anything from android 17 thus giving him more feats.
and also look at the last page they are very far away
Its fine I believe their far away although I am not a fan of power scaling being used alone to determine feats some things are shown. Either way I think this discussion has run its course.
“Its not countered no, it just leaves flashstep and teleport at the same crossroad, they both look similar.”
But the thing is, SA17 was never indicated to have teleportation abilities. No statement and even no performance before or after demonstrates the possession of such an ability. Considering he already has faster-than-human super-speed, Occam’s Razor would favor super speed. It simply makes the most sense.
maybe power scaling wasn’t the best word. i just meant that super 17 is two android 17s put together so obviously he is capable of doing everything and more than android 17.
“Occam’s Razor would favor super speed”
Occams Razor wants to make the least amount of assumptions as possible, “high speed” and “mach 150″ does not necessarily go hand in hand. Until more evidence shows up for it being speed, maybe a statement or something. No statement or performance before or after that scene suggests such a scale, and in fact the scene itself shows him moving around quite clearly, it would have to be assumed there was a good reason for him to go significantly slower across those distances while fighting which makes no sense.
Teleportation on the other hand, ticks every box based on the scene itself. The only question that it could be speed is we don’t specifically “know” or get “told” its a teleport. Speed, taking into account the laziness of GT animation is certainly a possibility but not a fact.
actually if you watch the scene again he even moves up a little before he flashes
and since goku has been calc’d faster than that way back when he was on namek and super 17 is making him look like a punk pretty sure mach 150 is not anywhere near an unconsiderable speed.
“Occams Razor wants to make the least amount of assumptions as possible, “high speed” and “mach 150″ does not necessarily go hand in hand.’
really? you can literally tack that onto any speed feat. Thats not even an argument. Even if mach 150 was his top speed that would more than likely make him the slowest character in the series. dbz characters have shown to be significantly faster than that and is shown being faster than the other z fighters so how does the fact that he moves at mach 150 make this feat lean in any way towards teleportation.
“actually if you watch the scene again he even moves up a little before he flashes”
It looks like his height is levelling out as the leg he used to kick the guy upwards is being moved back down again.
I don’t understand what your second link is supposed to mean.
“since goku has been calc’d faster than that ”
This is getting in the realm of irrelevancies but what calc?
“pretty sure mach 150 is not anywhere near an unconsiderable speed.”
HIs regular speeds as shown when he is flying around the rest of the scene are not similar to it, its still a shot in the dark. Mach 150 merely comes from the calculation that assumes it was actually speed.
“so how does the fact that he moves at mach 150 ”
That’s not necessarily a fact, that’s what is being disputed.
“you can literally tack that onto any speed feat”
Explain, what I said is true. Simply saying someone is fast is not enough to suggest every time they move its automatically speed regardless of what it looks like, at least when we know teleportation exists in the series and is displayed exactly like that feat.
“dbz characters have shown to be significantly faster than that ”
Just for this thread, can you post some examples?
“how does the fact that he moves at mach 150 make this feat lean in any way towards teleportation.”
Because even while fighting Goku in SS4 he does not appear to be doing the same speed as you claim. Infact that’s the only time he would have shown mach 150 I am guessing since I doubt theres any proof he went that fast elseware. The rest of the episode you see him flying from mountain to mountain, and dodging/trading blows across maybe miles, not hundreds.
For example at 2:45 he speeds at Gohan or whoever yet it takes him a few seconds just to cross that cityscape ruin. And just before 6:00 he flies up possibly at most a mile as a high estimate to meet Goku flying above him and that takes him about a second or so, same when you see him cleave through the mountain he plowed Goku into, hes not moving at mach 150.
It makes no sense for him to go slow while fighting SS4 goku at his hardest.
@kitten my second link shows the androids could fly across the world in only a few minutes. actually it could be seconds and that might be a miss translation. either way. and god damn it i told myself no more db threads but here we go
Will Doom’s magic affect the android?
Because if so
Weren’t androids with the red dots in their hands the ones that absorbed energy and made stronger? If Doom doesn’t know that then some of his ranged attacks are useless.
then again Doom has similar tech in his armor so it’d be a bit of a back and forth in that department, and Doom can turn solid matter into energy to absorb.
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