Luke Skywalker Vs Sephiroth

Luke Skywalker Vs Sephiroth

Suggested by StealthRanger

Luke Skywalker (Star Wars) faces off against Sephiroth (Final Fantasy).

Luke is in his EU incarnation, Sephiroth is his Advent Children form.

Battle takes place in the Coliseum.

Who would win?

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252 Comments on "Luke Skywalker Vs Sephiroth"

  1. Skarbrand June 15, 2013 at 7:27 am -      #1

    Oh yay another one of mine finally posted. Very nice

    Anywho, I’ll just lurk for a bit and see how this one unfolds

  2. TheBoss June 15, 2013 at 7:28 am -      #2

    Isn’t EU Luke, God mode Luke?

  3. Gluttonous-Behemoth June 15, 2013 at 7:29 am -      #3

    Weulp. Hm, well I can’t very well say. Fast and fast, and strong and strong, and magic against force I assume. I don’t know enough about Seph to comment.

  4. Kitten Lord June 15, 2013 at 7:46 am -      #4

    I have never been impressed by Sephiroth so I am going with Luke. I think in a melee even lesser force users can match Sephiroths speed and their precog could give them an edge but I have heard EU Luke isl ike the top end of the spectrum, I wouldn’t put it past Luke mind tricking, force smashing and speeding his way to victory before Sephiroth does much.

  5. OberHerr June 15, 2013 at 8:01 am -      #5

    Gonna need some feats from Septhiroth, but from what I’ve had hammered into my head from SW fans…..Luke is pretty damn OP in the EU.

  6. Asger June 15, 2013 at 8:38 am -      #6

    Isn’t EU Luke a galactic mind-rapist or something insane like that?

  7. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 8:39 am -      #7

    Yeah, his psychic range is definitely galactic.

  8. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 8:50 am -      #8

    Also, in that pic, Luke looks like the eighties.

  9. Zazax June 15, 2013 at 8:51 am -      #9

    Uh, wow. I feel sorry for Sephiroth.

    Well, Sephy’s got a time stop, various polymorph effects, and a spell whose description is literally ‘inflicts death’. His willpower is such that he was able to keep his ‘self’ intact after being absorbed into the lifestream (something never accomplished before him), so unless Luke’s are better than usual I don’t think a mind trick would work. His sword is also less a physical object and more a mental projection, so not sure if a lightsaber could cut through it. That’s about all I can think of that might help.

    Other than that, initial bets on Luke.

  10. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 8:58 am -      #10

    “Sephy’s got a time stop, various polymorph effects, and a spell whose description is literally ‘inflicts death’.”

    Which he never uses, and death never works against a boss character.


    “His willpower is such that he was able to keep his ‘self’ intact after being absorbed into the lifestream (something never accomplished before him), so unless Luke’s are better than usual I don’t think a mind trick would work.”

    Luke’s Force power is very very powerful, he was more powerful than a force user that was able to mindrape an entire city planet(think Coruscant, but not quite THAT big)


    “His sword is also less a physical object and more a mental projection, so not sure if a lightsaber could cut through it.”

    Has it ever taken damage? I really don’t care if the swords can match one another, force users wouyld never get a good match if their lightsabers just cut through stuff. I will argue it though if his sword has ever been damaged.


    “Other than that, initial bets on Luke.”

    Yeah, same here.

  11. Kitten Lord June 15, 2013 at 9:01 am -      #11

    How is denying the lifestream absorption some amazing feat of will anyway? How hard is it to deny the lifestream? Just because nobody usually does it does not automatically mean its some amazing feat that someone as powerful as Luke couldn’t influence him.

    And I don’t think Sephiroths sword can be damaged and even if it was, he can summon them from the life stream, their just energy given material.

  12. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 15, 2013 at 10:31 am -      #12

    @Kitten Lord
    not sure
    though for the record, it’s likely similar process to keeping yourself separate from the Force….which is what Force Ghosts are, Jedi who kept their consciousness within the universal power.

  13. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 15, 2013 at 10:40 am -      #13

    forgot to click notify.

    so that said I’m going to back Luke, massive TK to make Starkiller green with envy, Emerald Lightning which is a Jedi equivalent, though more powerful, to Sith Lightning, and makes Palpatine green with envy, and death if touched by it.
    Speed is about equal, strength I’m not sure on really, though moot if Luke decides to see how hard Sephiroth can go from the stratosphere to the dirt using TK, the dude’s force shadow clone thing that appeared in Darth Cadeus(Jacen Solo and a powerful Force user) and was like an avatar of Luke or something that the poor bastard didn’t sense somehow basically TK’d him till his chair was shattered….and I think the chairs frame was durasteel, not sure….but Luke was several lightyears away at the least when he did that. Massive TK range.

    Then there’s his ability to teleport weapons out of peoples hands with foldspace or whatever it was……

    And oneness, which makes him the embodiment of the Light side.

    And finally though it’d be a desperation tactic, there’s always Force Storm.

    I wonder though……would Wall of Light….which cuts people off from the Force…..make Sephiroth incapable of using Materia/Lifestream….whatever he uses for magic.

  14. Kyuuketsuki June 15, 2013 at 10:43 am -      #14

    Vampire Hunter D solos

  15. Ford Prefect (the Hoopy Frood) June 15, 2013 at 10:45 am -      #15

    @GA
    Don’t get into elemental comparability with this, that would bog down the match horrendously.

  16. Ford Prefect (the Hoopy Frood) June 15, 2013 at 10:46 am -      #16

    Stupid autocorrect
    *compatability, not comparability

  17. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 15, 2013 at 10:52 am -      #17

    @Ford
    it only does that in Warhammer debates and I’ve accepted Warp equaling everything, even used it to help turn the tide against the Imperium of Man….

    So personal demons aside I think it’s a genuine question, Lifestream and the Force seem fairly similar, life energy of everything, when you die your reabsorbed by it….with enough lifestream/materia whatever you can do amazing things that defy physics. So I’m just honestly curious if they are equivalent and if so would that mean Luke could use Wall of Light to basically neuter Sephiroth.

  18. Ford Prefect (the Hoopy Frood) June 15, 2013 at 10:59 am -      #18

    @GA
    I see what you’re saying. I’d personally prefer to see them fight without disabling one of the fighters (not that Luke shouldn’t be allowed to), it just seems like a better matchup to have them fight at full power.

  19. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 15, 2013 at 11:01 am -      #19

    @Ford
    Not saying Luke will use it just curious if it would work.

  20. Richard Rider June 15, 2013 at 11:55 am -      #20

    Time to go scavenger hunting for all the Luke feats scattered through out Factpile…

  21. Xeno Zeromus June 15, 2013 at 12:46 pm -      #21

    I love Sephiroth, and he’s a freaking powerhouse, but I know that EU Luke is pretty much Star Wars Jesus, so….
    I gotta say Luke has this.

  22. Urdnot Lowk June 15, 2013 at 3:55 pm -      #22

    Sephiroth can fly, Luke can’t. I think it pretty obvious who win here.

  23. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 15, 2013 at 4:04 pm -      #23

    Sephiroth can fly all he wants, won’t stop Luke from grabbing him with TK and smashing him into the ground repeatedly.

  24. Sauroposeidon June 15, 2013 at 4:12 pm -      #24

    First time I’ve ever almost felt bad for Sephiroth.. Wonder how a Luke vs Kefka match would go.

  25. Kyuuketsuki June 15, 2013 at 4:17 pm -      #25

    I got a match for “Star Wars Jesus”

  26. Commander Cross June 15, 2013 at 4:17 pm -      #26

    More Balanced than Tenchi or Dr. Strange vs Sephiroth, that’s for sure.(the former of the two fight Ideas did happen by the way!)

    Post-NJO Luke from the sound of things looks like he’d just overkill the nutjob to death, destroy the wing and feel more than welcome to urinate all over whatever’s left of him if he likes.

    Tenchi Masaki(OVA canon) without the Kami Form would just go in the blink of an eye to delete the nutcase from existence, and then feel free to laugh his ass out, granted the latter sounds more like Ryoko to do but whatever, Tenchi >>> Luke in terms of how to overkill the One-winged fuckface, really.

    I said my peace, here’s hoping Luke will overkill this idiot and that’ll be the end of it lest we hear about Goku vs said nutjob next.

  27. Kyuuketsuki June 15, 2013 at 4:21 pm -      #27

    You always find away to plug one of your match ideas cross,never fails

  28. Commander Cross June 15, 2013 at 4:24 pm -      #28

    Actually it wasn’t my idea, it was a response to what post #24 said if anything.

    Moot point as I’d rather not reply back here if it can be helped, let’s go at the VMA and talk more in terms of ideas, capice?

    P.S: You mentioned Goku vs Sephiroth first, not me.

  29. Kyuuketsuki June 15, 2013 at 4:33 pm -      #29

    When did I mention goku vs sephiroth? That must be directed at some one else because Im pretty sure I didn’t.

    Im really sure I didn’t mention it here because I have only said like 3 things here

  30. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 4:51 pm -      #30

    “Sephiroth can fly, Luke can’t. I think it pretty obvious who win here.”

    The classic Doomsday conundrum.


    “Sephiroth can fly all he wants, won’t stop Luke from grabbing him with TK and smashing him into the ground repeatedly.”

    I imagined something similar to the Puny God scene from Avengers.

  31. Zazax June 15, 2013 at 5:57 pm -      #31

    “Which he never uses”
    So…?

    “and death never works against a boss character.”
    Now, now, ZomB, you know game mechanics aren’t counted in matches.

    “Luke’s Force power is very very powerful, he was more powerful than a force user that was able to mindrape an entire city planet(think Coruscant, but not quite THAT big)”
    That’s a matter of scale, not potency. It’s explicitly stated that mind tricks only work on the weak-minded, and Sephy is the strongest-willed character in his ‘verse.
    Unless what Luke is doing is not mind tricks, of course.

    “Has it ever taken damage?”
    Not even when it was an actual, physical object in Crisis Core, let alone it’s AC incarnation.

    “How is denying the lifestream absorption some amazing feat of will anyway?”
    Whenever someone in FF7 dies their ‘soul’ (for lack of a better term) rejoins the Lifestream and is basically stripped of everything that made it who it was and eventually reborn as a clean slate. Sephiroth was able to give this the metaphorical finger and keep his ‘self’ together.

    “How hard is it to deny the lifestream?”
    Sephiroth is not the only person ever to do it, but everyone else who has done it either does it naturally (The Ancients), or been helped by one already inside (Zack, via Aeris/th). Sephiroth is the first and only character so far to do it through sheer willpower.
    It’s also notable that merely being exposed to Mako (Lifestream made manifest) is enough to drive Cloud comatose for an unspecified but long time, and totally shatter his mind into tiny pieces (it’s ultimately where all his identity problems stem from). Sephiroth spends even longer totally immersed in the stuff and is fine.

  32. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 15, 2013 at 6:10 pm -      #32

    @Zazax
    well he made Cadeus (a full fledged Sith Lord) see hear him from across the galaxy (at the minimum several lightyears) and I’m not sure exactly what the fuck he was doing but said “illusion” Luke was able to tk pin Cadeus like a rat under Hulk’s big toe.

  33. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 15, 2013 at 6:24 pm -      #33

    going to start posting feats.

    Luke using the force to make himself immovable. Raynar was using the force potential of all the Killik hives minus the Dark Nest. So basically Luke vs the Force power of billions of Killiks and Raynar’s own power. Possibly hyperbole on the Black Hole thing, but if nothing else enough to resist massive TK.
    ———
    ” The pain of losing an arm might have forced a common Jedi to stop fighting, but Raynar was no common Jedi. He had the Force potential of the Colony to draw on, and he did that now, swinging his remaining hand up to hurl Luke down the corridor as he had done before.
    But this time, Luke was ready. He placed his own hand in front of Raynar’s and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando’s asteroid tuggers, not the Megador’s sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.
    Luke stood that way, waiting, dimly aware that his surviving bugcrunchers were moving into defensive positions, one at his back and the other just inside the burst hatch. Raynar continued to struggle, trying to hurl Luke down the corridor, trying to move him a single centimeter.
    Luke did not budge, and finally Raynar stopped struggling and met his eyes with a stunned and anguished gaze.
    The Master sighed and shook his head. “What am I going to do with you, Raynar Thul?” he asked. “You learn nothing from your mistakes.”
    Luke deactivated his lightsaber and picked Raynar up by the collar and slammed him against the wall. He used the Force to pin him there, waiting for an answer to his question, watching as the expression in his captive’s pained eyes turned from astonishment to anger to calculation. “

  34. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 6:34 pm -      #34

    “So…?”

    CIS is active for matches. If he has never used it, we can’t say he ever will.


    “Now, now, ZomB, you know game mechanics aren’t counted in matches.”


    I’m not sure if that is a joke, I assume it is.


    “That’s a matter of scale, not potency. It’s explicitly stated that mind tricks only work on the weak-minded, and Sephy is the strongest-willed character in his ‘verse.”

    No, no, no. What I am referring to was no mere mind trick, he was completely masking his presence to an entire city-planet, while also draining their lives. MMindraping goes far beyond simple mind tricks.


    “Whenever someone in FF7 dies their ‘soul’ (for lack of a better term) rejoins the Lifestream and is basically stripped of everything that made it who it was and eventually reborn as a clean slate. Sephiroth was able to give this the metaphorical finger and keep his ‘self’ together.”

    Here is the description of what Sidious had to do to just to use essence transfer.
    “Palpatine’s body was destroyed. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body.” – Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

    Sounds remarkably similar. Just because FF characters can’t do something as frequently, doesn’t mean the ones that can are particularly powerful, force users separate themselves from death all the time. It’s no big deal anymore.

  35. Nomad June 15, 2013 at 6:50 pm -      #35

    “galactic mind-rapist”

    That is all.

  36. Potatochip June 15, 2013 at 7:27 pm -      #36

    Psychically sending a message to all other fellow force users in the galaxy =/= galactic mind-rapist.

  37. Zazax June 15, 2013 at 7:31 pm -      #37

    “CIS is active for matches. If he has never used it, we can’t say he ever will.”
    He’s never used it because he only has access to it after he dies in FF7, and his appearance in AC is both brief and absolutely dripping with PIS.
    We only know he can do it via Word of God, actually.

    “I’m not sure if that is a joke, I assume it is.”
    If you really want to go down that route I can start pulling out all of Sephy’s Contractual Boss Immunities (which includes mind rape), HP, and such.
    Also, you’re misunderstanding how CBI works in FF7. It’s not that certain spells don’t work on bosses (a good example is Stop, another one of the standard ‘doesn’t work on bosses’ spells; it’s actually the recommended way to beat Ruby Weapon, one of the game’s Bonus Bosses), it’s that most bosses have immunity to it. It seems a minor distinction, but there are almost always a couple statuses that will work on each boss that won’t work on others, showing it’s a trait of the boss, not the spell.
    Or we can both agree that game mechanics are stupid.

    “Mindraping goes far beyond simple mind tricks.”
    Ah, my mistake then. Kitten Lord mentioned it, so it’s all his fault.

    “Sounds remarkably similar.”
    Never said it wasn’t. However, is Luke capable of completely mindraping Palpatine? Because if the feats are equivalent…

    Also, let me reiterate: I’ve said from the start that Luke definitely wins. Was just bringing up the few ways that Sephiroth can at least *try* to fight back.

  38. Skarbrand June 15, 2013 at 7:32 pm -      #38

    “Sephiroth can fly all he wants, won’t stop Luke from grabbing him with TK and smashing him into the ground repeatedly.”

    I knew this would come up, kind of like in Vader vs Sephiroth. The main thing being is that a Force User has never been shown to be able to TK rape another force user without severely injuring and/or tiring them first, as demonstrated when TFU when Vader TKed a Jedi Master who was so far below him after beating him up badly in melee (among other examples)

    Basically for TK to be used either combatant would have to be weakened or tired out first (Sephiroth also has TK too, btw), but still given the massive speed disparity that existed between Vader and Sephiroth is gone here this is a far better match imo

    “You always find away to plug one of your match ideas cross,never fails”

    Naw he just mad because Dresden lost to Sephy (before he faced Haseo or Skulduggery on here no less)

  39. Skarbrand June 15, 2013 at 7:41 pm -      #39

    As for this:

    “and death never works against a boss character.”

    Pretty sure OriginalA debunked that concept that bosses are immune to powers and that some don’t have immunities years ago in Link and Cloud vs Kratos and Dante (srsly, I thought that was common knowledge by now)

    Luke doesn’t have canonical immunity

  40. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 7:46 pm -      #40

    “He’s never used it because he only has access to it after he dies in FF7, and his appearance in AC is both brief and absolutely dripping with PIS.”

    Still, it hasn’t been used. It’s the same reason we don’t say Aang will just blow up his opponent from the inside everytime.He obviously CAN, it’s just that he hasn’t.


    As for the ‘Death’ spell, I think it is another that he has never used, and Luke is more powerful than anything it has been shown used on.


    “Never said it wasn’t. However, is Luke capable of completely mindraping Palpatine? Because if the feats are equivalent…”

    No, however, Luke was able to overcome Palpatine’s mindraping of him when he was still weak. Current Luke is much, much more powerful.

  41. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 7:50 pm -      #41

    “Pretty sure OriginalA debunked that concept that bosses are immune to powers and that some don’t have immunities years ago in Link and Cloud vs Kratos and Dante (srsly, I thought that was common knowledge by now)”

    This isn’t that debate. Show ‘death’ killing a character more powerful than Luke. Or else, you can’t prove it would work against him. Also, if it was that effective, then they would use it all the time. They don’t use it, ever, in any cutscene ever. (To my knowledge.) Funny that.

  42. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 7:52 pm -      #42

    ‘Death’ as it is being sold here, is the biggest NLF I have ever seen.

  43. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 15, 2013 at 8:01 pm -      #43

    @Stealth
    except Luke did it to Cadeus, while he wasn’t even on the same fucking ship. I’ve got the quote somewhere on FP going to bring it asap but Cadeus is a powerful Sith Lord, Luke TK pinned him like it was nothing. And that was without even physically being in the same room.

  44. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 8:06 pm -      #44

    I think TCW actually contradicts the whole ‘Have to weaken a force user to TK them’ thing even. Sadly, I wouldn’t know exact episodes though.

  45. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 15, 2013 at 8:10 pm -      #45

    my bad it wasn’t the holo luke incident it was a different one, looking for the correct quote now.

  46. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 15, 2013 at 8:29 pm -      #46

    @ZomB
    well I found the right quote. So Luke using TK to make Caedus his bitch, without even moving. Cadeus=Sith Lord and if Luke feels like it Sephiroth=Lukes TK bitch. Important stuff is in bold

    Legacy of the Force 6: Inferno pg 133-140
    By the time Caedus had instructed SD-XX to secure the cabin against eavesdropping-physical or otherwise-and hidden the droid safely inside its security closet, Luke was marching into the cabin. In his high boots and black StealthX flight suit, he resembled a GAG trooper-at least until he hammered a slap-pad to close the door and started across the floor.
    Caedus was glad to see Luke’s lightsaber still hanging from its belt clip, but he took the precaution of slipping toward his desk, where he would have access to a dozen weapons and traps he had prepared in anticipation of just such a confrontation.
    Luke jabbed a finger in Caedus’s direction. “Now I understand why you’ve been avoiding me.” His tone was even and soft, but there was no mistaking the wrath in his Force aura. “And this time, you’ve finally crossed the line.”
    “What are you talking about?” Caedus asked, pretending ignorance. If the news of Omas’s death was just breaking on the HoloNet, an innocent Jacen wouldn’t logically have heard about it in the middle of his battle meditation.
    “I’m sorry I haven’t been available to console you, Uncle Luke, but I’ve been kind of busy trying to save the Alliance.”
    Luke narrowed his eyes and stopped in the center of the cabin. “I’d sooner cry on a Hutt’s shoulder than yours. I think you know that.”
    “I suppose family should be honest with each other.” The sadness in Caedus’s voice was genuine. He had always regretted losing his uncle’s respect and love-just another of the many sacrifices he was making to bring peace to the galaxy.
    “But Admiral Bwua’tu will be calling for the Hapan fleet soon. We can work this out-whatever it is- after the battle.”
    Luke shook his head. “I don’t think so.”
    Caedus exhaled in exasperation. “Is this about the academy?” He sneaked a glance toward his observation bubble, where a halo of battle light could be seen flashing around his chair, broken only by the thick triangular pedestal on which it rested. “I told you, I’m not going to leave one of the Alliance’s most valuable assets unprotected…”
    “Don’t play stupid,” Luke snapped. “This isn’t about the academy. It’s about Ben.”
    “Ben?” Caedus stopped at the corner of his desk, feigning shock. “Did something happen to him?”
    “You tell me,” Luke said. “You’re the one who sent him.”
    “Sent him where! I’ve hardly spoken to Ben since the funeral.”
    In the next instant, Caedus found himself flying across the cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair.

    “Don’t lie.” Luke started across the cabin. “I’m getting tired of it.”
    Caedus sprang out of the chair… or attempted to. Instead, he found himself struggling against an invisible weight. He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator.
    “Luke, you’ve gone mad.” Caedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair and discovered he couldn’t even do that much. “You can’t do this. I know you’re having trouble dealing with Mara’s death, but…”
    “This has nothing to do with Mara,” Luke said. “And you’re lucky it doesn’t. If she were here-if she had known what you were using Ben for-there’d be pieces of you scattered along the entire length of the Hydian Way.”
    The irony of the statement was far from lost on Caedus, but he was too astonished-and too frightened-to take any pleasure in it. While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.

    Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke Skywalker’s much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the Force, just enough to seem properly alarmed.
    “Does this have something to do with Cal Omas?” he asked. “Tell me Ben didn’t do anything foolish!”
    Luke’s eyes grew narrow and cold. “Tell me what makes you think he might have.”
    “Of course,” Caedus said. ” Ben learned of a conversation that made it look as though Omas had something to do with Mara’s death.”
    ” That’s ridiculous,” Luke said. ” Chief Omas would never have done something like that.”
    “Never have!” Caedus echoed. “You mean Ben…. you mean Omas is dead?”
    Luke looked at him without answering.
    Caedus would have shaken his head, save that it was still being held motionless with the Force. Had it been Mara’s death instead of Omas’s that Luke had just heard about, Caedus knew he would already be dead. Another reminder that anyone could be surprised.
    “I tried to tell Ben the same thing, but he’s so full of anger.” He locked gazes with Luke. “I’m afraid he’s going to become its servant, if one of us doesn’t reach him soon.”
    Luke nodded, then sat on the corner of Caedus’s desk. “How did Ben find out about this conversation?” Caedus forced himself not to look away. “I wish I knew.”
    “You told him.” When Luke’s expression did not change, Caedus realized that his uncle had been expecting the lie, that he had already worked matters out for himself. “It’s just so convenient for you, isn’t it? You let something slip in an innocent conversation and point Ben like a missile.”
    ” That’s not what happened.” The denial was strictly for form; Caedus knew Luke wouldn’t believe it. “But even if it were, now is hardly the time to discuss it. We’re a Squib’s hair from victory. After we crush the Confederation, I’ll be…”
    Krova’s voice came over the comm speaker. “I’m sorry to interrupt, Colonel Solo, but Admiral Bwua’tu is ready for the Hapans.” Caedus felt a knot unwind inside. Finally.
    “Tell Admiral Bwua’tu the Hapans will be coming shortly.” Caedus had retained personal control of the Hapan Home Fleet, determined to prevent any risk to Tenel Ka or Allana by not using it until victory was certain. He waited until Krova had acknowledged the order and closed the channel, then turned to his uncle.
    “I’ve told you all I know about Omas’s death, and I need to transmit that order myself. The Queen Mother insisted I take personal responsibility for committing her fleet.”
    Luke raised his brow. “You think you’re dismissing me?”
    “I know I am.” Caedus put an angry edge in his voice; he might be trapped in a humiliating position right now, but he was still the leader of the Galactic Alliance-and Luke was still its servant. “If you like, we’ll open an inquiry into Omas’s death after we’ve saved the Alliance.”
    Luke glared at Caedus for a long moment, then finally slipped off the desk. “Is that a promise?”
    “It is.”
    “Then I’ll take it for what it’s worth, “Luke said. Leaving Caedus Force-pinned in his chair, he started toward the door. “I’ll show myself out.”
    Caedus knew he would be freed as soon as Luke turned his concentration to something other than Force-pinning him-but that might take minutes, and Caedus needed to send in the Home Fleet now. Besides, he was the Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance, and he could not allow anyone, even Luke Skywalker, to humiliate him and simply leave. He had to assert some sort of authority.
    “Luke,” Caedus called. “Aren’t you forgetting something?”
    Luke stopped at the door and looked back, the rage in his face now softening to what looked like remorse. “You’re right. I should warn you that you’ll have to crush the Confederation without StealthXs. The Jedi can support you no longer.”
    “What?” Caedus was so shocked that he tried to rise- and found himself as unable to move as before. “You can’t desert now. We can end this war!”
    “We could destroy the Confederation fleets and kill a lot of rebels, “Luke admitted. “But I don’t think you can end this war, Jacen. I don’t think you even know what it’s about.”
    “That’s absurd.” Caedus did not understand how a man who had been fighting wars for forty years could be so foolish. “After their fleets are destroyed, Corellia and Both-awui will have to accept our terms, and once they’ve surrendered, the rest of the Confederation will have no choice but to come racing to rejoin the Alliance.”
    Luke shook his head and reached for the touch pad beside the door. “There’s always a choice, Jacen.”
    “And if you go through with this one, you’ll regret it.” Caedus could not understand why Luke wanted to desert him just when they were on the brink of saving the Alliance, but he did know how to prevent it. “Have you forgotten the academy?”
    The door opened. Instead of stepping through, Luke faced Caedus and spoke in a very calm voice. “I’m sure you’re not threatening the younglings.”
    He pointed at the base of Jacen’s meditation chair and made a tapping motion with his finger. The pedestal gave a loud whumpf, and the seat dropped a quarter meter.
    “Because you really don’t want to see me angry.” Luke made the tapping motion again. The pedestal emitted a metallic shriek, and the seat dropped another quarter meter. “And I think you’re smart enough to know that.”
    Luke tapped a last time, and the pedestal collapsed with a low loud crump, depositing Caedus on the floor with his feet sticking out in front of him like a child.

    “But if you want to try me, go ahead and make that threat.”
    Luke lowered his hand, and the weight vanished from Caedus’s chest. He could have leapt up to attack-had he been that foolish-but Sith were not slaves to their emotions. Avenging his humiliation could wait until after he had saved the Alliance. So, remaining on the floor where Luke had deposited him, Caedus simply touched the comm pad on his armrest. “Lieutenant, do we have an open channel to Prince Isolder yet?”
    “Actually,” Replied a deep Hapan voice, “You’re speaking to him now, Colonel Solo.”
    “My apologies.” Caedus looked across the day cabin to lock gazes with Luke. “Are you ready to commence your attack?”
    “I am, “Isolder said.
    Luke lowered his gaze and shook his head.
    “Then please proceed,” Caedus said. “And may the Force be with you.”
    “May it be with all of us,” Isolder replied. “If this plan doesn’t work, we’re going to need it.” The channel closed with a pop.
    Moving very slowly so his uncle would not misinterpret his actions as an attack, Caedus stood. “I know you too well,” He said to Luke. “You’re not going to abandon the Alliance.”
    “There is no Alliance.” Luke turned to leave. “It died with Cal Omas.”
    “For you, maybe.” Caedus couldn’t understand why his uncle was so focused on Omas’s death; it was one among millions, and even if Caedus had put the idea in Ben’s head, he hadn’t actually ordered the assassination.
    “But you are going to support this attack; I’m quite certain the Senate would frown on turning the security of the Jedi academy over to an order of deserters.”
    Luke’s hand brushed the hilt of his lightsaber, and Caedus thought for a moment that the fight he had been anticipating since Mara’s death-anticipating, dreading, and wanting-was finally going to come. He stepped away from the observation bubble, giving himself some maneuvering room in case Luke came at him in a tumbling pass.
    But Luke seemed to realize that attacking Caedus aboard his own Star Destroyer-even if he was fortunate enough to kill him-would only put the academy and the rest of his Jedi in an even more precarious position. He moved his hand away from his lightsaber and put it out to stop the door behind him from sliding shut.
    “Okay, Jacen,” He said. “If that’s how you want to play this, we will.”
    “It’s not how I want anything,” Caedus said. “But if that’s what it takes to win this war, I’ll do it.”
    Luke studied Caedus for a moment, then seemed to surrender to circumstances. “I don’t know why that surprises me, but it does.” His voice was weary and sad. “It looks like I should be getting back to my StealthX.”
    “It looks like you should,” Caedus agreed. “And may the Force be with you out there.”
    Luke snorted, half in disgust and half in humor. “Thanks, I guess.” He stepped through the door and started across the anteroom, his disappointment hanging in the Force as heavy as fog on Dagobah.
    “Good-bye, Jacen.”
    It did not escape Caedus that Luke had departed without returning the traditional kind wishes, but that was probably too much to ask of someone who had just been brought to task. Caedus waited until his uncle had passed out of sight, then closed the door and turned to find SD-XX standing at his back.
    “That went well,” The droid said. “For a time, it appeared you would have to kill him, too.”

  47. Zazax June 15, 2013 at 8:47 pm -      #47

    “Pretty sure OriginalA debunked that concept that bosses are immune to powers and that some don’t have immunities years ago in Link and Cloud vs Kratos and Dante (srsly, I thought that was common knowledge by now)”
    It pops up in pretty much every RPG-related fight on the site at least once. It’s one of those things that’s nigh-impossible to get rid of.

    “He obviously CAN, it’s just that he hasn’t.”
    So what’s the problem, then? He has no specific CIS that says “won’t use time stops”.

    “As for the ‘Death’ spell, I think it is another that he has never used, and Luke is more powerful than anything it has been shown used on.”
    It’s in the same boat as, Stop, yes. Basically, all this is coming from a statement that after being killed in FF7 and basically becoming a conscious entity within the Lifestream, Word of God says that Sephiroth can use any and all powers found on materia (which is crystallized lifestream). These various spells are all found on materia, but Sephiroth has put in such a short appearance since entering this state that he hasn’t really had time to use any.
    As for Death, it has nothing to do with the strength of the target. There are really powerful enemies that are vulnerable to it, and there are weak enemies that are immune to it. It all depends on the inherent immunities/resistances of the target, not the limitations of the spell.

    “No, however, Luke was able to overcome Palpatine’s mindraping of him when he was still weak. Current Luke is much, much more powerful.”
    Well, that’s a good resistance feat, I guess, but unless this mindraping works completely differently than I thought it does it doesn’t really help prove he can mindrape Sephiroth.

    “They don’t use it, ever, in any cutscene ever. (To my knowledge.) Funny that.”
    That’s because the only materia we ever see used out of gameplay are Holy, Meteor, and Bahamut SIN. FF7 doesn’t really have a lot of cinematics.
    However, in the Nibelheim Flashback bit in FF7 where Sephiroth is temporarily ‘playable’, he does make wide use of the materia he has. I see no reason he wouldn’t when he has access to even more.

    “‘Death’ as it is being sold here, is the biggest NLF I have ever seen.”
    How so? We’re literally claiming it does what it says it does, and that’s it. It causes death.
    Also, it’s on you to prove that Luke can resist it, not us to prove he can’t.

    Also, has Luke ever done any dimensional travel (not sure if Hyperspace would count here or not…)?

  48. Draco June 15, 2013 at 8:52 pm -      #48

    How fast can Sephi cast a spell? I know that most spells in FF need to have an incantation muttered, if this is true for Sephi he doesnt get a chance to cast. Luke will lock him with force TK.

  49. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 9:18 pm -      #49

    “So what’s the problem, then? He has no specific CIS that says “won’t use time stops”.”

    You have to provide precedence of him doing it. If he hasn’t, we can’t say he has. You don’t want to debate the character of Sephiroth, you want to debate you with the powers of Sephiroth.


    “Well, that’s a good resistance feat, I guess, but unless this mindraping works completely differently than I thought it does it doesn’t really help prove he can mindrape Sephiroth.”

    It is a psychic power feat beyond anything Sephiroth can compete with.-


    “How so? We’re literally claiming it does what it says it does, and that’s it. It causes death.”

    No, that isn’t how that works, the action is the positive claim, not a resistance to an action.-


    “That’s because the only materia we ever see used out of gameplay are Holy, Meteor, and Bahamut SIN. FF7 doesn’t really have a lot of cinematics.However, in the Nibelheim Flashback bit in FF7 where Sephiroth is temporarily ‘playable’, he does make wide use of the materia he has. I see no reason he wouldn’t when he has access to even more.”

    Yes, and you know as well as I Zazax, that we don’t use gameplay.

  50. Zazax June 15, 2013 at 9:42 pm -      #50

    “How fast can Sephi cast a spell?”
    We don’t see a lot of materia cast out of gameplay, but the ones we do (notably Bahamut SIN in AC) just take a couple of seconds to charge and a hand motion. Notably, Bahamut SIN is a summoning spell, and even in-gameplay they take much longer to cast than normal ones. Crisis Core, while also gameplay, is at least real-time, and most spells cast almost instantly, although a few (like Ultima) also have charge times.
    There’s also stuff like W-Magic and Quad Magic that let him cast multiple things simultaneously, but ZomB seems to want to limit Sephiroth to pretty much just swordfighting despite WoG.

    “You have to provide precedence of him doing it. If he hasn’t, we can’t say he has.”
    This literally the first match I’ve been involved in where one side is being denied use of the *vast* majority his powers because of this.

    “It is a psychic power feat beyond anything Sephiroth can compete with.”
    Defense =/= offense.
    Also, technically Sephiroth has worldwide psychic feats as well, via manipulation of the Lifestream to create Geostigma. Not quite as impressive as Luke’s, but he’s not completely defenseless.

    “No, that isn’t how that works, the action is the positive claim, not a resistance to an action.”
    As I’ve already said, it has nothing to do with the strength of the target. There are enemies of all strengths that are both vulnerable and immune to it. There is no distinct ‘strong = immune, weak = vulnerable thing, for *any* spell, let alone just Death (to use my previous example, Ruby Weapon, the second strongest boss in the game, is vulnerable to Stop).
    Therefore, it is not up to us to prove that the spell will work in any way other than it normally does (ie, inflicting death). It’s up to you to prove that Luke can resist it as certain FF7 enemies can.

    “Yes, and you know as well as I Zazax, that we don’t use gameplay.”
    But it’s not really gameplay. You don’t actually control him, so it’s not even ‘he has these spells available if you want to use them’. He quite literally does his own thing, which is mostly spamming high-level AoE spells and/or raising Kid Cloud whenever the one person you do control dies (which will happen a *lot*). It’s not *technically* a cinematic, but it’s damn close.
    It’s like dismissing favored weapons for NPCs because they happen ‘in-gameplay’.

    Perhaps I should elaborate better. Things that happen in gameplay (spells cast, story events, weapons used, etc) are considered fair game, but actual mechanics (HP, dodge percentage, damage dealt, turn-based casting times, etc) aren’t. FF7 is tricky since 99% of it is gameplay with very few (and short) cinematics, and most of AC is just notably materia-less, but with all the FF7 matches on the site people have done a good job filtering out the game mechanics (for example, you’ll never hear me claim ‘Supernova’ or ‘Heartless Angel’, because despite being Sephiroth’s two big nasty spells in-game, they’re both just dripping with game mechanics).

  51. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 10:07 pm -      #51

    “This literally the first match I’ve been involved in where one side is being denied use of the *vast* majority his powers because of this.”

    No it isn’t, it is just the first time you’ve noticed it. Force users are always limited by their CIS immensely. Any foce user could just shut down their opponents brain if they wanted. The only thing is very few force users have ever actually shown a tendency to actually manipulate people internally, and I think only Luke has been shown to fuck with peoples brains. Aang as well, his power is vast beyond anything we debate with, however, we only use what he has shown to have a tendency to do. I can probably come up with a few more examples, if you’d like.


    “As I’ve already said, it has nothing to do with the strength of the target. There are enemies of all strengths that are both vulnerable and immune to it. There is no distinct ‘strong = immune, weak = vulnerable thing, for *any* spell, let alone just Death (to use my previous example, Ruby Weapon, the second strongest boss in the game, is vulnerable to Stop).”

    NLF. Simple fact is, what you’re saying is an NLF. What you’re saying would mean that since the Christian GOd has never shown a resistance to ‘Death’ Sephiroth can just use it on him. This is why I always tell myself I won’t get into Sephiroth debates, it is always people using gameplay, and saying ‘Death’ will kill anything.


    “But it’s not really gameplay. You don’t actually control him, so it’s not even ‘he has these spells available if you want to use them’. He quite literally does his own thing, which is mostly spamming high-level AoE spells and/or raising Kid Cloud whenever the one person you do control dies (which will happen a *lot*). It’s not *technically* a cinematic, but it’s damn close.”

    If it isn’t a scripted cinematic, we cannot use it.


    “Perhaps I should elaborate better. Things that happen in gameplay (spells cast, story events, weapons used, etc) are considered fair game, but actual mechanics (HP, dodge percentage, damage dealt, turn-based casting times, etc) aren’t. FF7 is tricky since 99% of it is gameplay with very few (and short) cinematics, and most of AC is just notably materia-less, but with all the FF7 matches on the site people have done a good job filtering out the game mechanics (for example, you’ll never hear me claim ‘Supernova’ or ‘Heartless Angel’, because despite being Sephiroth’s two big nasty spells in-game, they’re both just dripping with game mechanics).”

    I don’t give a fuck what ‘other people’ have said, if it is not scripted cinematics, it is useless for debate. Ya’ know, in gameplay, using a Needler in Halo is fucking awesome, and Chief does it all the time. We don’t say that he does in matches tthough. Shit, the only reason we can even use Snake’s infinite ammo headband is because it was specifically shown in game cutscene, despite it’s purpose being described via word of god. Just because something exists in gameplay, does not mean it is useable in debate. Also, we only give Snake the weapons he is SHOWN IN CUTSCENE to have. Not the ones he acquires out of cutscene, despite him having them. For instance, there is a gun near the beginning that it is impossible to not acquire, but the game never shows him having it in cutscene, so I can’t prove he does.

  52. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 10:17 pm -      #52

    It should say, I can’t prove he’ll use it, since it is impossible to not have it, he obviously has it, but I cannot prove he will use it.

  53. Skarbrand June 15, 2013 at 10:23 pm -      #53

    “This literally the first match I’ve been involved in where one side is being denied use of the *vast* majority his powers because of this”

    Yeah, I don’t get it either, kinda like they’re to downplay Seph like they want him to lose as badly as possible lol

    @Guardian
    “Legacy of the Force 6: Inferno pg 133-140″

    Okay, you got me there, well played

  54. TheSorrow June 15, 2013 at 10:27 pm -      #54

    Yeah, I don’t get it either, kinda like they’re to downplay Seph like they want him to lose as badly as possible lol

    That’s rarely the case. Game mechanics and CIS are tricky things to debate for and against.

  55. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 10:27 pm -      #55

    This is all moot anyways, Luke’s RT is too fast for Sephiroth to handle even if he casted his insta-kill attack as fast as he could react to the beginning of the match, and then even if it hit(which from what I have heard, it doesn’t do too often.). Nanosecond reaction times are far beyond anything in FF, and Luke could wipe his memory in that time (TK, not Psychic either, so he would have no resistance). Or use his own insta-kill. Emerald Lightning.

  56. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 10:32 pm -      #56

    “Yeah, I don’t get it either, kinda like they’re to downplay Seph like they want him to lose as badly as possible lol”

    Not at all, more of what Sorrow said. I am sick and tired of going into debates to find that people have debated for a character for years without ever considering the character’s actual CIS, as one of the few Pilers that takes that rule seriously, it ticks me off when CIS is not used. I use it against one of my favorite characters, Aang, all the time because frankly, despite his incredible power, he hasn’t been shown to use it efficiently enough to win hardly any matches on here.

  57. Skarbrand June 15, 2013 at 10:35 pm -      #57

    “That’s rarely the case. Game mechanics and CIS are tricky things to debate for and against.”

    I was more referring to the denial of Sephiroth using them at all actually, like anything that could possibly give Seph a chance are being denied, lol

  58. Mea quidem sententia June 15, 2013 at 10:42 pm -      #58

    GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god Post #17
    •If you want to say that the Force and the Lifestream are the same, you can compare them as you have, but everything must be the same. Definitions, included. I think it would be interesting.
    ——————–
    •As for Death, yes, CIS is the default position. If x does not demonstrate using y, then there is no reason to assume x would. The onus is on the one who says x would use y, regardless of whether or not x could use y.

  59. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 10:47 pm -      #59

    “As for Death, yes, CIS is the default position. If x does not demonstrate using y, then there is no reason to assume x would. The onus is on the one who says x would use y, regardless of whether or not x could use y.”

    Thank you. This is the point I have been trying to make.

  60. Mea quidem sententia June 15, 2013 at 10:51 pm -      #60

    ZomBat Post #59
    •You’re welcome.

  61. Aelfinn June 15, 2013 at 10:55 pm -      #61

    I’m pretty sure that Luke was not shown to definitively have nanosecond reaction times. As far as I was aware, there is one quote saying something along the lines of “in a nanosecond” but that could have very easily have been hyperbole, much less an outlier without further examples.

  62. Mea quidem sententia June 15, 2013 at 10:59 pm -      #62

    Aelfinn Post #61
    •It reminds me of, “I’ll be there in a jiffy.”
    •I am curious where this nanosecond response time is.

  63. Skarbrand June 15, 2013 at 11:03 pm -      #63

    “I’m pretty sure that Luke was not shown to definitively have nanosecond reaction times”

    I thought those were called into question in vs Kharn, although I’m unsure of the current consensus on Luke’s reactions since then

  64. Mea quidem sententia June 15, 2013 at 11:08 pm -      #64

    •”Luke raised his lightsaber and grasped the Sith in the Force, intending to bring him tumbling into an ignited blade … then felt something catch him across the ankles. He had no time to be astonished, barely even the nanosecond required to realize Abeloth had survived her fall into the cleft. He merely felt his feet shoot away and found himself dropping face-first. – Fate of the Jedi: Vortex
    ——————–
    •This appears to be the source. So, it took only Luke a nanosecond to realize Abeloth survived a fall? This cannot be the only source from which this “feat” comes.

  65. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 11:11 pm -      #65

    “I-Five suddenly whipped up his left hand, index finger extended, and fired a laser beam at Jax. The beam splashed off the ionized fire that suddenly coated the length of the blade, which Jax had automatically raised to block the beam.”

    “That’s how,” I-Five said, “The speed of light is just under three hundred thousand kilometers per second. You are currently seven-point-three meters from me. Your Force-augmented anticipatory reflex action is obviously working fine. You just have to let it.”-


    Jax Pavan, a much weaker Jedi Padawan exhibiting nanosecond RT. And before you say he reacted to I-Five raising his arm, no, I-Five would not bring up up the speed of light if that were the case. The writer’s intent is clear.

  66. jackn8r June 15, 2013 at 11:33 pm -      #66

    “Jax Pavan, a much weaker Jedi Padawan exhibiting nanosecond RT. And before you say he reacted to I-Five raising his arm, no, I-Five would not bring up up the speed of light if that were the case. The writer’s intent is clear.”

    Association fallacy. Shaak Ti has manipulated the growth of plants with the force before, but that doesn’t mean Luke can even though he’s stronger in the force.

  67. ka-tet19 June 15, 2013 at 11:34 pm -      #67

    “Jax Pavan, a much weaker Jedi Padawan exhibiting nanosecond RT. And before you say he reacted to I-Five raising his arm, no, I-Five would not bring up up the speed of light if that were the case. The writer’s intent is clear.”

    well no. light moves one foot per nanosecond. 7.3 meters = 22.96 feet.

    however that is still impressive as shit

  68. ka-tet19 June 15, 2013 at 11:36 pm -      #68

    “Association fallacy. Shaak Ti has manipulated the growth of plants with the force before, but that doesn’t mean Luke can even though he’s stronger in the force.”

    he may not have all of the same force powers but he is probably shown somewhere to have better reaction times via power scaling

  69. Aelfinn June 15, 2013 at 11:42 pm -      #69

    “This appears to be the source. So, it took only Luke a nanosecond to realize Abeloth survived a fall? This cannot be the only source from which this “feat” comes.”

    That and the quote which ZomB has posted are the only ones I have seen.

    “Jax Pavan, a much weaker Jedi Padawan exhibiting nanosecond RT.”

    That is ignoring the fact that Jedi Masters in the movies clearly don’t demonstrate this ability. I understand EU is allowed in most things, but this has to be the most obvious example of an outlier I’ve ever seen.

    “And before you say he reacted to I-Five raising his arm, no, I-Five would not bring up up the speed of light if that were the case. The writer’s intent is clear.”

    Despite the fact that he wrote I-Five quickly raising his hand? You can’t make the decision that the writer wanted Jax to only react to the laser without further proof, considering simply writing in the raising of the hand indicates that the writer wants this to be part of the scene. Are there other scenes in the book which also demonstrate such high reaction times? That should deliver us an appraisal of the character fitting with what the writer wanted.

  70. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 11:42 pm -      #70

    “Association fallacy. Shaak Ti has manipulated the growth of plants with the force before, but that doesn’t mean Luke can even though he’s stronger in the force.”

    The thing is, Luke already has a nanosecond feat, I was just using this as an example of it not being an outlier. No association fallacy.


    “well no. light moves one foot per nanosecond. 7.3 meters = 22.96 feet.

    however that is still impressive as shit”

    Oh, I am aware that Jax’s is a multi-nanosecond feat. My point still stands though.


    “he may not have all of the same force powers but he is probably shown somewhere to have better reaction times via power scaling”

    Easily, though I do dislike powerscaling.

  71. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 11:46 pm -      #71

    “Despite the fact that he wrote I-Five quickly raising his hand? You can’t make the decision that the writer wanted Jax to only react to the laser without further proof, considering simply writing in the raising of the hand indicates that the writer wants this to be part of the scene. Are there other scenes in the book which also demonstrate such high reaction times? That should deliver us an appraisal of the character fitting with what the writer wanted.”

    The fact that he gave us both the speed of light, and the distance between them is obviously him trying to exemplify the speed of that reaction.

  72. ka-tet19 June 15, 2013 at 11:50 pm -      #72

    “Easily, though I do dislike powerscaling.”

    like most things i think if its used correctly and tastefully it can be helpful only a sith deals in absolutes after all.

    “Despite the fact that he wrote I-Five quickly raising his hand? You can’t make the decision that the writer wanted Jax to only react to the laser without further proof, considering simply writing in the raising of the hand indicates that the writer wants this to be part of the scene. Are there other scenes in the book which also demonstrate such high reaction times? That should deliver us an appraisal of the character fitting with what the writer wanted.”

    i gotta side with zomb on this one man. i mean why else would the robot bring up the calc in the first place. plus “which Jax had automatically raised to block the beam.”

    also @ka-tet19
    7.3 meters = 23.95 feet
    you stupid idiot

  73. ZomBat June 15, 2013 at 11:53 pm -      #73

    “like most things i think if its used correctly and tastefully it can be helpful only a sith deals in absolutes after all.”

    Do you not realize my avatar is Darth Ba-… Oh wait, well, imagination is pretty Sith too.

  74. ka-tet19 June 15, 2013 at 11:55 pm -      #74

    “Do you not realize my avatar is Darth Ba-… Oh wait, well, imagination is pretty Sith too.”

    lol nothing screams sith lord like a rainbow

  75. Aelfinn June 15, 2013 at 11:58 pm -      #75

    “The fact that he gave us both the speed of light, and the distance between them is obviously him trying to exemplify the speed of that reaction.”

    It would certainly appear to support your proposal, but the fact remains that raising the hand quickly was written into the scene and acts as something that could give Jax some forewarning. It was written into the course of events by the writer, while a character within the story (subordinate to the writer) makes the claim. Was the hand supposed to be part of the reaction? It’s part of the undeniable course of events, regardless of what a character in-story says. If there were further examples of Jax doing similar things, it’d make things much clearer, but as of right now we have an EU character contradicting the Home Canon Movies following your logic.

  76. Mea quidem sententia June 16, 2013 at 12:04 am -      #76

    ZomBat Post #65
    •”Anticipatory” is the key word. It means “happening, performed, or felt in anticipation of something”.
    •Even if nanosecond response time was permitted, by how many nanoseconds?

  77. ka-tet19 June 16, 2013 at 12:04 am -      #77

    @aelfinn
    here is what my problem with your analysis is

    “which Jax had automatically raised to block the beam.”

    now if he had been reacting to the hand raising he would have had to have thought “a hand is lifting he will shoot a laser at me” (which seems only mildly plausible) however the quote seems to imply that he did it out of instinct

    not to mention if he were to react to his hand then he would have included it into the calc (logically speaking i mean)

  78. ZomBat June 16, 2013 at 12:07 am -      #78

    “but as of right now we have an EU character contradicting the Home Canon Movies following your logic.”

    You see, THAT is an association fallacy. Jax Pavan may just have had particularly good reflexes. We don’t see him in the movies, so he contradicts nothing directly, which is what the Star Wars canon policy says he must do to make that non-canon.


    Luke having Nanosecond RT is hardly unfeasible, when he fought Guri (A robot much faster than any human.) He saw her as moving in slow motion. I think they were fighting so fast that sound stopped or something during that fight or some shit too. I’d have to read it again.

  79. ZomBat June 16, 2013 at 12:12 am -      #79

    “•”Anticipatory” is the key word. It means “happening, performed, or felt in anticipation of something”.”

    Pre-cog is part of any Jedi’s arsenal. It makes calculating RTs a bitch though.


    “Even if nanosecond response time was permitted, by how many nanoseconds?”

    Jax’s feat is twenty something nanoseconds.


    “now if he had been reacting to the hand raising he would have had to have thought “a hand is lifting he will shoot a laser at me” (which seems only mildly plausible) however the quote seems to imply that he did it out of instinct”

    Indeed, I-Five, and Jax are allies, he had no reason to believe he would shoot a laser at him.

  80. jackn8r June 16, 2013 at 12:19 am -      #80

    “The thing is, Luke already has a nanosecond feat, I was just using this as an example of it not being an outlier. No association fallacy.”

    I know he has a nanosecond reaction feat, but attributing this one to make the point that it’s not an outlier isn’t valid since it’s an association fallacy. Simply stating that it’s not without any reason doesn’t mean anything.

    “well no. light moves one foot per nanosecond. 7.3 meters = 22.96 feet.

    however that is still impressive as shit”

    Just do the actual math. The feat is 24 nanoseconds.

    “•Even if nanosecond response time was permitted, by how many nanoseconds?”

    The quote you posted isn’t clear, it just says “nanosecond” but the one of Jax is 24 nanoseconds.

  81. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 16, 2013 at 12:22 am -      #81

    well missed a bit
    @Stealth
    I wouldn’t have brought it up otherwise, I knew it got debated in the fight with Darth Vader, but Luke is on a different level.

    @Mea quidem sententia
    well I’m never good with figuring out if things are or aren’t elementally compatible, which is why I was asking, if things are here….Luke could potentially use Wall of Light for taking Sephiroth’s abilities away….but I’m not a Final Fantasy expert.
    ———————————————————-
    on the speed thing…..and I don’t remember if I posted it somewhere…..but to normal Jedi (who are in the supersonic range) Luke was moving too fast for his lightsaber strikes to be followed, but….that’s not reactions so doesn’t help much….

  82. jackn8r June 16, 2013 at 12:22 am -      #82

    “You see, THAT is an association fallacy. Jax Pavan may just have had particularly good reflexes. We don’t see him in the movies, so he contradicts nothing directly, which is what the Star Wars canon policy says he must do to make that non-canon.”

    This is not at all what he was saying. The whole contradicting canon bit is totally unrelated. Aelfinn is saying the fact that we don’t see a master (higher than a padawan) with these feats/abilities in the movies directly contradicts your attempt to attribute the feat to Luke (higher than a padawan.) And, it is an association fallacy.

  83. Skarbrand June 16, 2013 at 12:26 am -      #83

    “well I’m never good with figuring out if things are or aren’t elementally compatible, which is why I was asking, if things are here….Luke could potentially use Wall of Light for taking Sephiroth’s abilities away….but I’m not a Final Fantasy expert.”

    IIRC the concensus in Vader vs Sephiroth was that lifestream and the force are somewhat similar since they’re both drawing on the energies of living things around them or something. Granted that was from years ago when CIDE was around but just for what it’s worth, might read it again to see what was said there

  84. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 16, 2013 at 12:32 am -      #84

    @Stealth
    I’ll check it out then, because now I’m just curious if Luke could use Wall of Light to cut Sephiroth off from his powers…bit of a cheat strategy perhaps but it would get the job done….granted Sephiroth would still be a deadly swordsman so it’s not an instant win.
    —————————-
    And now posting Luke’s duel vs Jacen/Darth Caedus whole thing’s one massive duel showing pain tolerance and more
    ————————–
    Legacy of the Force 6: Inferno
    Luke didn’t give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang. Ben’s jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head. But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen’s eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke’s met flesh.
    The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen’s blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.
    Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps. Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt.
    Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen’s chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew’s chest should have been.
    Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.
    Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.
    The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising. Bad mistake.
    Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-which Jacen ducked. He came up under Luke’s guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke’s ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke’s chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing.
    Luke struck again with his lightsaber, using both hands and putting all his strength into the attack, beating his nephew’s guard down so far that Jacen’s emerald blade bit into his own shoulder.
    Jacen kicked at Luke’s legs, catching the side of a knee. Something popped and Luke felt himself going down. On the way, he swept his blade horizontally. Jacen screamed, and the smell of scorched bone and singed hair filled the air. Knowing Jacen would strike despite the wound, Luke rolled over his throbbing knee and spun back to his feet with a clearing sweep.
    His blade met Jacen’s in a shower of brilliant sparks. Luke freed one hand and drove a finger-strike at Jacen’s eyes.
    Jacen turned his head, but Luke’s little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head. Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew’s blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.
    Jacen went flying, and it required only a soft nudge to steer him into a tendril-draped rack in the far corner. He hit with so much cracking and crashing that Luke worried the rack had broken, but the thin tendrils quickly entwined Jacen in a net of pulsing green.
    Luke started forward, his injured knee buckling each time he put weight on it. The rack’s slender tendrils were tightening around Jacen, cutting into his flesh and oozing a yellowish irritant that made skin puff up and split. Jacen began to slash his lightsaber up and down, cutting the vines away two and three at a time. If Luke wanted to finish this-and it seemed like a good idea, given how battered he was himself-he had only a few seconds.
    Luke closed to within two meters without saying a word. What point would there have been? Jacen wasn’t going to surrender, and Luke wouldn’t have believed him if he offered. It was better to attack quickly, while he still had the advantage. He brought his lightsaber up to strike.
    “Wait!” Ben cried from behind him. “Let me do it!”
    Astonished and appalled, Luke put a little too much weight on his injured knee-and fell as it buckled. He rolled beyond the reach of Jacen’s lightsaber and looked back across the chamber. Ben was still strapped in the Embrace, but he had summoned the vibrodagger off the floor and was battling to cut himself free of the chair’s lashing tentacles.
    Luke shook his head. “I don’t think so, Ben.”
    “You have to!” Ben insisted. “I deserve it!”
    “Deserve it?” Luke returned to his feet, far angrier with Jacen than he had been just a moment earlier. “To kill someone?”
    “You don’t understand, “Ben insisted. “It was my fault. If I don’t do this…”
    “I said no, “Luke interrupted. How could Ben believe that he had a right to kill someone? “You’re very confused, Ben. We’ll talk about this later.”
    Giving his son no further chance to argue, Luke turned back to Jacen, who by now was almost free. Only one leg remained caught, though it was still entwined in a half a dozen places. Luke limped forward, circling toward Jacen’s trapped side.
    Jacen stopped cutting at the tendrils and flung a hand toward the ceiling.
    “Dad, look — ”
    Luke was already throwing himself to the deck. A tremendous crash sounded from the illumination panel, and the chamber fell instantly dark. He rolled opposite the direction he had just been moving, but wasn’t quick enough. The fixture smashed into his head and shoulders, slamming his face into the deck. He heard something crunch in his nose and was instantly choking on his own thick blood.
    Jacen’s lightsaber droned twice, filling that corner of the torture chamber with flickering green light. Luke Force-hurled the light fixture off his back, then hobbled to his feet.
    Jacen launched himself over Luke in a high Force flip. They exchanged perfunctory attacks as he tumbled past, then Luke was alone in the corner, watching the green column of his nephew’s lightsaber move toward the door. Jacen was running.
    Luke spat out a mouthful of blood and Force-leapt after his nephew, at the same time reaching out to drag him back. They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could follow, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows came out of nowhere. Luke caught another kick in his knee and found himself calling on the Force to keep his balance. He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen’s face shatter.
    Jacen stumbled back, groaning, the green light of his lightsaber briefly illuminating Ben’s face as the boy struggled to cut himself free. Luke pressed forward, angling toward the Embrace to keep Jacen away from Ben. Jacen fought his way over anyway, placing himself squarely between Luke and the chair, then gave ground and vanished behind the green ribbons his lightsaber was weaving through the darkness.
    Luke Force-leapt after him, knowing that this Jacen-the Jacen he had caught torturing his son-would not hesitate to take Ben hostage… or to kill him. Luke landed half a meter in front of Jacen’s lightsaber and quickly beat down his nephew’s guard-too quickly. When he did not glimpse a face in the light of his own blade, Luke knew something was wrong and stopped.
    Which was exactly what Jacen was waiting for, of course.
    Luke had barely started to turn before a loop of thin tendril slipped over his head and tightened around his throat, oozing toxin and cutting deep into the flesh. The wound swelled and burned as if it were on fire. Luke whipped his lightsaber around, trying to cut Jacen off his back, but Jacen was already spinning away, tightening his garrote and placing Luke’s body between himself and the deadly blade.

    Should have let me go when you had the chance, “Jacen snarled. “Now you’re done.”
    Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen’s ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall. Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to hammer his elbow up under Jacen’s chin.
    The garrote went completely slack. Luke followed up with a palm-heel to the same target, using the impact to drive himself away from his attacker and buy some maneuvering room.
    Then Jacen let out a bloodcurdling scream and stumbled away, a black silhouette vanishing into the darkness of the torture chamber.
    Luke stepped back in shock and confusion, summoning his lightsaber to hand, but knowing by the surprise in Jacen’s scream that this was not another trick.
    “It’s okay, Dad, “Ben said from beside him. “It’s just me.”
    Ben took the glow rod from Luke’s belt and activated it. Jacen was crawling across the torture chamber, the hilt of a vibrodagger protruding from between his shoulder blades. His face was inflamed and misshapen, his clothes were smoking and tattered, a hand-sized rectangle of scorched skull showed through his scalp, and still he was stretching a hand toward his lightsaber.
    Luke re-ignited his own lightsaber, then pointed out the door. “Artoo is in the hangar prepping a skiff for launch,” He said. “Go help him while I finish up here.”

  85. ZomBat June 16, 2013 at 12:33 am -      #85

    “This is not at all what he was saying. The whole contradicting canon bit is totally unrelated. Aelfinn is saying the fact that we don’t see a master (higher than a padawan) with these feats/abilities in the movies directly contradicts your attempt to attribute the feat to Luke (higher than a padawan.) And, it is an association fallacy.”

    Again, not attributingit to Luke. I am merely showing, that Jedi with reaction times in the nanosecond range, are not an outlier. Just high end.


    “on the speed thing…..and I don’t remember if I posted it somewhere…..but to normal Jedi (who are in the supersonic range) Luke was moving too fast for his lightsaber strikes to be followed, but….that’s not reactions so doesn’t help much….”

    That does show fast reaction though, being able to react at speeds that other Jedi can’t even see.

  86. ka-tet19 June 16, 2013 at 12:33 am -      #86

    “Just do the actual math. The feat is 24 nanoseconds.”

    see post 72

  87. Aelfinn June 16, 2013 at 12:34 am -      #87

    “now if he had been reacting to the hand raising he would have had to have thought “a hand is lifting he will shoot a laser at me” (which seems only mildly plausible) however the quote seems to imply that he did it out of instinct”

    I’ll admit that raising the hand is not a perfect forewarning, but it also ensures that blocking the laser is not a clear-cut nanosecond RT feat. It’s a fast reaction, no doubt, but how much influence the raised hand and pointed finger had is unknown. As I said before, other quotes would provide a better picture of Jax’s abilities.

    “You see, THAT is an association fallacy. Jax Pavan may just have had particularly good reflexes.”

    You don’t see how this also negates applying his Reaction Times to Luke? If the reasoning is that because this simple Padawan had low RT, then Luke must also have low RT, then the reasoning is inherently flawed. Jax may have exceedingly low RT (still hoping other quotes can be provided over here) but his feat (as it stands) can not be applied to other Force Users, let alone Luke.

    “He saw her as moving in slow motion. I think they were fighting so fast that sound stopped or something during that fight or some shit too. I’d have to read it again.”

    Which seems to indicate supersonic movement and approximately hypersonic reactions. Is that fast? Yeah. Is it faster than what I’ve seen of Sephiroth? Definitely. Indicative of nanosecond reactions? Not at all.

  88. jackn8r June 16, 2013 at 12:36 am -      #88

    “Again, not attributingit to Luke. I am merely showing, that Jedi with reaction times in the nanosecond range, are not an outlier. Just high end.”

    Alright, my bad. I thought you were saying that not Jedi in general but Luke being in the nanosecond range wasn’t an outlier.

  89. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 16, 2013 at 12:37 am -      #89

    Well if nothing else we know Luke has the speed edge, I’m going to see if that feat I was talking about is on FP I’d rather not have to type it out again if I can avoid it…plus I’d have to find it again in the book anyway.

  90. ka-tet19 June 16, 2013 at 12:38 am -      #90

    “That does show fast reaction though, being able to react at speeds that other Jedi can’t even see.”

    wouldn’t that be more of a combat speed feat?

  91. ZomBat June 16, 2013 at 12:41 am -      #91

    “wouldn’t that be more of a combat speed feat?”

    I’ve always thought reaction, and combat speed went hand in hand.

  92. Aelfinn June 16, 2013 at 12:44 am -      #92

    “well I’m never good with figuring out if things are or aren’t elementally compatible, which is why I was asking, if things are here….Luke could potentially use Wall of Light for taking Sephiroth’s abilities away….but I’m not a Final Fantasy expert.”

    An external, metaphysical force that is inherent to the lives of the people within the universe? I’d say they are compatible.

  93. Aelfinn June 16, 2013 at 12:48 am -      #93

    “I’ve always thought reaction, and combat speed went hand in hand.”

    I’d say they’re not a perfect comparison, but I would agree that one is generally indicative of the other.

  94. ZomBat June 16, 2013 at 12:50 am -      #94

    “An external, metaphysical force that is inherent to the lives of the people within the universe? I’d say they are compatible.”

    I concur with Aelfinn’s assessment. (I figure it isn’t often I’ll be able to say that, so I’ll take it where I can get it.)


    Anyways, I am really high, and really tired, so I might be passing out soon. If I post a gibberish message, it is because I fell asleep on my keyboard.

  95. ka-tet19 June 16, 2013 at 12:52 am -      #95

    “I’ve always thought reaction, and combat speed went hand in hand.”

    it depends on the character and feat. in this case i believe you’d be correct.

  96. Mea quidem sententia June 16, 2013 at 12:54 am -      #96

    ZomBat Post #79
    •I would think precognition would be acceptable based on the point that the anticipatory reflex is augmented by the Force.
    •As for the response time, I should have figured that easily. Assuming this is response time.
    •t = 7.3 m. / 299,792,458 m/s
    •t = 2.43501789
    •t = 0.0000000243501789 s, or 24 ns.
    •That falls in the range of time of fusion reaction in a hydrogen bomb, assuming it’s response time and not precognition.

  97. GuardianAngel1911 Super Sayian god June 16, 2013 at 12:54 am -      #97

    @Aelfinn
    compatible enough for Wall of Light to do to Sephiroth what it does to Sith/Jedi and cut him off from said metaphysical force?
    —————————————————————-
    and still looking for that feat but found this
    ———-
    Luke using a technique to see memories and erase them to instead rip a woman’s spirit as she once was from the now eldritch Abeloth. Still shows Luke knows how to basically blow your mind to oblivion
    ——-
    Luke could see a kaleidoscope of images, all drawn from Callista’s past, much of it with him, some of it from more ancient times. He marveled at her strength, the power it had required her to survive the loss of her original body, the strength it took her to remain partly Callista in the face of this overwhelming alien force.
    “Luke …” She spoke with both her voice and her mind. “Join with me. Save me.”
    He wrapped himself more fully around her, in body and in the Force. “I will. I will save you.”
    And he tore at her.
    It was an act of brutality, a perversion of the mnemotheraphy technique. It was like performing a surgical amputation with a dull stone ax weighing ten kilos. With all the strength he possessed in the Force, he yanked her away from her body, away from Abeloth.
    He could not have done it to a living being. But Callista did not belong where she was. The body she now inhabited, the broad life force that was Abeloth—they were not her true home. She had no true home. And Luke tore her free of the things that anchored her to the physical world.
    It was a physical effort, too. Luke staggered free of Callista’s body and fell to his knees, drained in an instant of all his strength.
    Now he could see with just his own eyes. Callista staggered back from him, her mouth open, a shriek of pain, half Abeloth and half someone else, none of it Callista, pouring out of her.
    ——————-
    now normally he couldn’t really do that to a living person/body….but Sephiroth isn’t a normal case…..basically being a specter that created a body around himself….so it might work on him?

  98. Mea quidem sententia June 16, 2013 at 12:57 am -      #98

    •That middle part in the math was unnecessary.

  99. ka-tet19 June 16, 2013 at 12:58 am -      #99

    couldn’t we just consider precog an extension of reaction time and make our lives soooooo much easier?

  100. jackn8r June 16, 2013 at 1:01 am -      #100

    “wouldn’t that be more of a combat speed feat?”

    No, because he’s reacting to a stimulus, which in this case is the laser firing.

    “I’ve always thought reaction, and combat speed went hand in hand.”

    They’re two entirely different things. The average human has the reaction time of 15-30 milliseconds. That has nothing to do with human combat speed. Of course it has direct relation to combat itself, but not the speed of the combat.

    “•t = 0.0000000243501789 s, or 24 ns.”

    I’ve been saying this for a while now.

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