A match that has been asked for many times has finally hit the site.
Here we have the crafty veteran in Link, the ‘Ol hero of Hyrule going up against Cloud Strife of Final Fantasy.
For this match all powers are in play, which would *seem* to give an advantage to Link, but it doesn’t mean it would be an easy victory.
How do you think this fight would play out?
While you are right for the most part, Sephiroth was only defeated by Cloud because he held back on him due to his arrogance and because the creators declared it was PIS
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But yes, Cloud is ridiculously above Link in speed. Just about everything else too. Strength, durability, probably stamina too
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And new page
^i showed that a while ago link fans ignored it
Speaking of which, whats with the influx of Link fantards recently?
its there time of the month i guess
Yeah true I guess
“While you are right for the most part, Sephiroth was only defeated by Cloud because he held back on him due to his arrogance and because the creators declared it was PIS”
To be fair, he didn’t exactly take Zack seriously either.
Yeah I know. I was simply saying that to address the “Cloud beat Sephiroth so Cloud is superior to Sephiroth” thing that was brought up
‘Yeah I know. I was simply saying that to address the “Cloud beat Sephiroth so Cloud is superior to Sephiroth” thing that was brought up’
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If you’ll re-read my previous comment, you’ll notice I never once said Cloud was superior to Sephiroth, only that he had defeated him twice. Which is true.
Also, just because his defeat was declared PIS doesn’t change the fact that Cloud had flat-out speedblitzed him for a win at the end. Also true.
If you mean when Cloud killed Sephiroth with the Omnislash V6.0 then I concede that point
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Either way Cloud still speedblitzes Link
Zack>>>>>>>>>Sephiroth and his gay buddy Cloud.
“Zack>>>>>>>>>Sephiroth and his gay buddy Cloud.”
this
man i just finished fate zero
kiritsugus final lines reminded me of zack fairs so much
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what if kiritsugu had summoned archer(shirou) instead of saber
“Zack>>>>>>>>>Sephiroth and his gay buddy Cloud.”
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in2lit.pbworks.com/f/thumbs-up-borat1.jpg
@Zazax
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So a person disagreeing with ya is considered ‘trolling’? Ye have already accepted the fact that Link can come into battle wearing the power bracelet, magic armor, cape, boots, gloves, or any other thing that normally he would have to equipt, but as soon as that wearable item is something that would result in a hinderance to Cloud, you say it can’t be worn? Why? The masks is a wearable item, not a potion or spell, and it is obviously not because it would grant a bonus coming into battle as ye have Cloud coming in wih the reflect ring and sprint shoes, which both give him spell bonuses coming into battle. The only reason I can conclude why an exception is made for the mask, is because it prevents Cloud from targeting Link right off the bat.
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I have proven theat swords in FF are made from ferrous material, I have also proven that battle ready swords are magnetic, ye have set the standard that physics are not in play in FF, so it is yer turn to prove your claim, that the Fusion sword is made off a special material, any durability can be explained by two things, ignoring physics and the quality of the blade, so until you prove your claim, the burden of proof falls on ye, as I have presented more then enough evidense for this issue, and your only contribution apparently is to endlessly say ‘now prove this’.
@British
Yeah, the Cloud-fans here like to insult and curse anyone who doesn’t agree with them and set alot of double standards. Examples: Link’s MS can break magical barriers time and again, and the GG show to lift over 70 tons, but neither count because of gameplay mechanics, while Clouds materia dependent on gameplay mechanics always work. Cloud can come in with buff granting spells due to equiptment and their abilities maximized, wihile Links is not. Basically the rules are flip flopped whenever one of Link’s items provide him with a way around Clouds defenses or supply him with an advantage, and anyone pointing them out is accused of trolling. What I have come to see is that the spirit of the rules has been broken, if not the word.
Should have known the Link fantards would see eye to eye. Both completely convined they are right no matter what. Its like trying to argue with 9/11 conspiracy theroists
daioni still upset over elf boys loss
And my point is proven.
Butthurt fantards arguing that Link can beat combatants so vastly superior to him
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First Cloud, then Kharn. Who next I wonder?
And further proven.
^And still butthurt
“First Cloud, then Kharn. Who next I wonder?”
idk
meh i should suggest saber(fate/) vs link :maybe
Do eet! :ho
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Looks like Link is becoming then new Kratos (who was the new Dante :maybe)
“Butthurt fantards”
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Troll.
“Troll.”
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i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff412/King-Hopper/Reaction%20Images/Dandy3.jpg
“Do eet! :ho”
the site dosnt need another stomp
(stomp in sabers favor as she out classes cloud in every way)
files.sharenator.com/okay_meme_RE_ATTENTION_SHARE_NATION_Amazing_things-s300x272-170761-475.jpg
“(stomp in sabers favor as she out classes link in every way)”
fix’d
Broken JPEG?
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The fact here is if Link were allowed the same advantages Cloud is allowed, Cloud would not be able to beat him, not because of superior strength and speed (which Link can approximate with speed and strength enhancing equiptment), but because he is a master of many styles of fighting as opposed to Cloud, who basically relies on overpowering a foe with magic or his sword techniques, which is basically why the Cloud fan’s are so insistant on a one hit KO and eliminating Link’s equiptment as usable or effective at defending him, because a strait forward one hit KO is the only way Cloud could win, because after that, Link is sniping him from well beyond his range from four directions.
Allowed to come properly equipt, Link would have on the stone mask (does not need activation, just needs to be worn), preventing Cloud from targeting him with spells and he would have on magic armor, preventing him from taking damage, which eliminates any 1 hit KO scenereos. Link has warp seed to take him out of Clouds range, and the hawkeye and bomb arrows to snipe at Cloud with explosives. The four sword allows for coordinated attacks with the pirate charm as a communication method, and a bomb to Cloud’s item pack will destroy his restorative items, not to mention materia would probably be damaged from a point blank explosion. Clouds Shield only lasts a short time, made even shorter by the constant haste (Enough time to make 2 actions which given the huge boasting of clouds speed is only a few seconds), resulting in a huge drain on Clouds MP and repeatative motions to recast and restock, easily predicted after a brief period of observation. Link breaks Clouds materia(Which light up like a beacon when used) and items, leaving Cloud only with his sword and limit breaks, which require close range to be effective.
Alright guys, let’s take this slow now. No need to get angry. Let’s examine the claims, though.
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“Link’s MS can break magical barriers time and again,”
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Breaking some magical barriers =/= breaking all magical barriers. You’re gonna have to show what barriers it gets through and how they are similar enough to be acted upon in this situation.
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“the GG show to lift over 70 tons,”
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Cloud is too fast for this to have much of an effect.
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“Link would have on the stone mask (does not need activation, just needs to be worn), preventing Cloud from targeting him with spells”
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I haven’t been paying attention to the stone mask argument. Please explain this.
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“he would have on magic armor,”
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Assuming he has the 2000(I don’t know for sure) rupee wallet from Skyward Sword, the magic armor isn’t going to last long anyway. A 999 wallet can be dropped like a rock just from a few substantial hits in the TP Universe. Considering just how strong and fast Cloud is, the rupees will soon be depleted, if not all at once.
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“the hawkeye and bomb arrows to snipe at Cloud with explosives.”
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First off, it isn’t really “sniping”. Link’s range isn’t fantastic, and Cloud can close the distance very quickly. Second, I don’t know if it is mechanics or not, but in TP it is impossible to equip bombs and the hawkeye at the same time.
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“The four sword allows for coordinated attacks”
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Unfortunately, the four sword doesn’t quadruple equipment, and an un-equipped Link is a dead Link.
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“Clouds Shield only lasts a short time, made even shorter by the constant haste (Enough time to make 2 actions which given the huge boasting of clouds speed is only a few seconds), resulting in a huge drain on Clouds MP ”
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This is a good point. Like I said, Magic Cape plus Sneaky-Stab (or maybe another move) is Link’s best hope.
MS sword has Broken through the WW barrier surrounding Hyrule castle once fully empowered, which was impervious to both physical and magical attacks, LttP contains a barrier across the Castle door, also impervious to all available attacks except for the master sword. The only time Link has not been able to pierce barriers are for gameplay reasons: To seal to seal off battle arenas, and the twilight princess barrier does not allow you to draw or use weapons on it to test it once you are on the north road where it is located, requiring you to have the fused shadow as the plot demands.
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GG: The arguement isn’t that Cloud is to fast for it, it’s that Link is able to utilize that strength for anything besides lifting, which is denied link due to game play mechanics.
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Stone Mask: Link is not allowed to ‘buff’ himself before battle, which would be no potions or spells, but is allow to prep equiptment. The Stone mask makes the wearer unnoticable and invisible to others, meaning that Cloud cannot target Link. The mask is equiptment, does not use magic, and can be worn for any length of time without limit. Zaz argues that Link cannot come into battle wearing it because it gives him an advantage while allowing Cloud to come in with reflect ring and sprint shoes, both giving him advantages coming into battle.
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Magic Armor: Link has a wallet size of 9999, which is over 80 minutes of invulnerability. He then has his other set of magic armor which uses magic and Romini Chateu which gives him magic for 3 days.
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Bomb arrows: It is a game mechanic, and it’s accurate enough and far enough away to be out of Clouds range. Link can also make a getaway with the warp seeds if need be when Cloud starts coming after him.
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Foursword: Copies equiptment as it copies his shield, already established that Link can utilize that aspect of the blade to copy any equiptment he has.
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Link has many more options open to him then just the magic cape sneaky stab.
“Second, I don’t know if it is mechanics or not, but in TP it is impossible to equip bombs and the hawkeye at the same time.”
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Wouldn’t the bomb and the fuse get in the way of the scope?
“So a person disagreeing with ya is considered ‘trolling’?”
No, just you, at the moment.
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“Ye have already accepted the fact that Link can come into battle wearing the power bracelet, magic armor, cape, boots, gloves, or any other thing that normally he would have to equipt, but as soon as that wearable item is something that would result in a hinderance to Cloud, you say it can’t be worn?”
So, none of the other stuff that Link is wearing (massive strength boosters, the stupid gloves I spent a who;le page arguing against, etc) are hindering Cloud? If they weren’t, I wouldn’t have wasted time arguing against them.
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“The masks is a wearable item, not a potion or spell, and it is obviously not because it would grant a bonus coming into battle as ye have Cloud coming in wih the reflect ring and sprint shoes, which both give him spell bonuses coming into battle.”
Think of it this way; Link’s other equipment is his actual ‘equipment’. Anything found on the ‘c buttons’ (including masks, potions, etc) is the same sort of deal as Cloud’s inventory. It’s like how we’re not letting Cloud start with the pin pulled out of a grenade and his arm in a windup throw position.
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“The only reason I can conclude why an exception is made for the mask, is because it prevents Cloud from targeting Link right off the bat.”
That would be because you’re not considering everything, mate.
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“I have proven theat swords in FF are made from ferrous material”
No, you’ve proven the Buster Sword has iron in it. Big difference. Not everything with iron in it is magnetic (just look at your blood; why do you think hemoglobin turns red when i bonds with oxygen? It’s ‘rusting’ a little bit, from the oxygen bining to the iron it it. And blood is not magnetic).
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“I have also proven that battle ready swords are magnetic”
In the real world, with real-world materials. Considering the physical attributes of Cloud’s sword, it’s most certainly not made of the same material or with the same techniques as real-world swords are.
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“ye have set the standard that physics are not in play in FF, so it is yer turn to prove your claim, that the Fusion sword is made off a special material”
Umm, you’re saying it’s steel. I’m saying it’s not, and using its physical properties (i.e. that it survives things that effortlessly destroy huge chunks of steel without being scratched) as proof.
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“any durability can be explained by two things, ignoring physics ”
The only time an out-of-universe explanation is allowed for something is if it’s Word of God. It doesn’t matter if the writers/animators ignored physics, the sword still did this and has these qualities.
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“and the quality of the blade”
So you know people who can make steel so hard that it survives things that absolutely demolish structure and military-grade steel without a scratch?
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“so until you prove your claim, the burden of proof falls on ye, as I have presented more then enough evidense for this issue, and your only contribution apparently is to endlessly say ‘now prove this’.”
Oh, no you don’t. You’re the one saying Cloud’s swords are magnetic. I’m saying they’re not (or at least not provable to be), and supplied evidence for my reasoning (which, technically, I don’t have to do until you’ve actually proven your point, but whatever). You’re ‘proof’ is that the Buster Sword (the weakest sword Cloud ever uses, by the way) contains an amount of iron, and that real-world steel swords are usually magnetic. Neither of those have any bearing whatsoever on the Fusion Swords
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And the whole point is made pointless (ha!) by two additional facts: Cloud will probably be using Ultima Weapon, which definitely isn’t magnetic, and Link is dead before he uses it regardless.
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Just going to cover small bits of daioni’s posts, since others have responded already:
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“Yeah, the Cloud-fans here like to insult and curse anyone who doesn’t agree with them and set alot of double standards.”
So calling you guys trolls is cursing and insulting you now? Go figure.
And you have still yet to actually demonstrate even a single double standard, daioni, despite claiming they exist for pages.
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“Examples: Link’s MS can break magical barriers time and again, and the GG show to lift over 70 tons, but neither count because of gameplay mechanics, while Clouds materia dependent on gameplay mechanics always work.”
This just proves you haven’t been paying attention. Others were covering this argument, so apologies if I miss something, but the basic gist I got was that the MS doesn’t remove all barriers, and the ones it does remove are universally either ‘evil’ barriers, or made with dark magic, and Cloud’s magic is neither.
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“Cloud can come in with buff granting spells due to equiptment and their abilities maximized, wihile Links is not. ”
This is just hilariously false. Cloud’s got three pieces of equipment other than his sword, bangle, and materia. Link has his sword, shield, magic (in the same vein as Cloud), and then boots, gauntlets, gloves, different tunics, bracelets, armour, etc. Who’s getting more mileage out of their starting equipment, again?
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“Basically the rules are flip flopped whenever one of Link’s items provide him with a way around Clouds defenses or supply him with an advantage, and anyone pointing them out is accused of trolling. What I have come to see is that the spirit of the rules has been broken, if not the word.”
So, your stance is that things with no proof backing them should be taken as fact then? Because the reasons we’re not allowing some of your claims for Link is because they are totally unproven.
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“(which Link can approximate with speed and strength enhancing equiptment)”
He really, really can’t. Especially in the speed department. Do you actually know just how much faster Cloud is?
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“but because he is a master of many styles of fighting as opposed to Cloud, who basically relies on overpowering a foe with magic or his sword techniques, which is basically why the Cloud fan’s are so insistant on a one hit KO and eliminating Link’s equiptment as usable or effective at defending him, because a strait forward one hit KO is the only way Cloud could win, because after that, Link is sniping him from well beyond his range from four directions.”
A) This shows you don’t know much about Cloud
B) Variety =/= quality. Just because Link has a lot of options doesn’t mean they’ll be useful.
C) ‘Master of many styles’? So, I count Sword and Board, and archery. What other styles is he a ‘master’ of (and I would argue that, while good, he’s not really a ‘master’ of the aforementioned two either)?
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“and a bomb to Cloud’s item pack will destroy his restorative items, not to mention materia would probably be damaged from a point blank explosion.”
Cloud has taken far bigger explosions without suffering loss of any items or materia.
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“Clouds Shield only lasts a short time, made even shorter by the constant haste (Enough time to make 2 actions which given the huge boasting of clouds speed is only a few seconds),”
This is a misunderstanding. Haste halves the time Shield covers him, but it also doubles his speed. This means it still lasts for ‘four turns’ (which is a useless number since we have no idea how long a turn is, or if it’s even given a length), but from his perspective. Since he’s sped up in time, it lasts half that length to outside observers, but to him it has the same duration.
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“resulting in a huge drain on Clouds MP and repeatative motions to recast and restock, easily predicted after a brief period of observation.”
Which Link won’t get, since he’ll be dead.
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“Link breaks Clouds materia(Which light up like a beacon when used) and items, leaving Cloud only with his sword and limit breaks, which require close range to be effective.”
We’ve seen materia survive far worse damage than anything Link could ever hope to put out.
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And, even without Shield up, I’m still not convinced Link can even hurt Cloud. He’s got some pretty crazy durability (surviving terminal velocity impacts totally unharmed and flying through Bahamut SIN’s giant energy ball of death are both good examples). He’s certainly survived worse damage than Link’s bomb arrows can put out. Toss in a Protect Ring, and now Cloud’s got a permanent Barrier/MBarrier, which will absorb ‘damage’ from everything Link can output (half of it, actually). Out of game mechanics, it’ll probably just soften everything he gets hit with somewhat, like a weaker shield.
“Wouldn’t the bomb and the fuse get in the way of the scope?”
How? The hawkeye is a mask.
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Sniping
“How? The hawkeye is a mask.”
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Right, forgot it was a mask. Thought it was like a scope.
‘c buttons’
Which in the 2D games also includes shields and swords and boots, so that is just gameplay mechanics, which ye cannot employ to give a player a disadvantage, and the only reason Link would not wear the mask is to give Cloud the advantage, so again CIS. Both combatants can use their permanent equiptment and cannot use spendable items before battle. It’s an all or none situation, you can’t make exceptions just because you don’t like it.
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‘Sword’ Still not hearing ya prove the blade is made of special material or forged any differently then the buster sword except for the same physics ignoring “I don’t want to have to defend my claim” speel.
Pit hops in on his Great Sacred Treasure and kills both.
TFP Megatron goes jet form and speedblitzes/fusion cannon spams and kills them both :maybe
Evil barriers: Prove that WW was an evil barrier, Gannondorf didn’t know Link was even in the Castle at that point, and never had time to make it there.
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Speed and strength: You have yet to prove Clouds strength and speed for which you’ve given no examples of outside of sword play, as with your own arguements “Utilizes a different set of muscles”, while Link has the Pegasus seed and pegasus boots pushing him to x8 his natural speed, not even including the bunny hood.
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Styles: Short Sword, Long word, Great Sword, Hammer, Archery, ball and chain, boomerang, Crossbow, Martial arts, brawling, wrestling, Slingshot, whip, wands, blowgun, shield, bombs, Improvised(for unsual weapons). Let me guess, your ‘I’m going to use gameplay mechanics to try and deny Link’s abilities.” Let’s go with Clouds FF7 gameplay display then, he can only swing his blade diagonally unless doing a limit break. WOW!
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“Cloud has taken far bigger explosions without suffering loss of any items or materia” Gameplay mechanics, prove that “Glass and magic liquids” and materia are bomb proof. Oh right this is Cloud, he doesn’t need to prove anything.
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“but it also doubles his speed.” FF7, even with the speed, the spell runs out after 2 attacks, not four. So your wrong.
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“crazy durability” By which you mean plot shield. Little hint, Clouds ‘crazy durability’ is named PG 13 and physics ignoring.
“Prove that WW was an evil barrier, Gannondorf didn’t know Link was even in the Castle at that point, and never had time to make it there.”
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No fucktard, thats your job. You have to prove it
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” You have yet to prove Clouds strength and speed”
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Oh my, levelling sections of skyscrapers, pushing people through skyscrapers (many layers of steel, concrete and glass) without them losing momentum, outrunning trains and deflecting/dodging bullets aren’t strength/speed feats /obvious sarcasm
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“while Link has the Pegasus seed and pegasus boots pushing him to x8 his natural speed, not even including the bunny hood.”
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So he’s normal human speed then? The Pegasus Boots increase his speed you say? By a factor of 8 you say?
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6mph*8= 48mph/21 m/s
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8*8=64mph/28 m/s
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10*8=80mph/36 m/s
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So he’s low subsonic. Cloud is supersonic+ You tell me whos faster
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“Oh right this is Cloud, he doesn’t need to prove anything.”
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You frustrated?
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“By which you mean plot shield. Little hint, Clouds ‘crazy durability’ is named PG 13 and physics ignoring”
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So its disallowed if it doesn’t help your argument. Got to love this cherry picking here
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Hey everyone! We’ve got a new gendrons/Mike over here! *points and laughs at daioni*
“Little hint, Clouds ‘crazy durability’ is named PG 13 and physics ignoring.”
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He takes going through that fireball thing and dropping from tremendous heights with little damage to himself. That’s called a feat.
Just like Link has lifted things a normal person shouldn’t and taken hits a normal person shouldn’t be able to take.
Martial Arts: Ha, I remember that, Zora Link. First time I saw that I was like, AWESOME.
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Haste Speed: Shield does run out after 2 turns as opposed to 4 once you caste it, you don’t get extra actions with it. It seems a bit wonky.
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Durability: I believe Cloud is more durable then a normal person, but the movie is PG 13, so they can’t show gore, Cloud was stabbed through the chest multiple times, and Sepiroth was sliced up, but neither showed wounds afterwords, even when one of them died, so lack of wounds in this case does not suggest lack of injury, as neither of them have regenerative capabilities outside of those supplied by potions and materia.
Cloud also was plummeted into a skyscraper by Sephiroth and survived, shrugged off bullets for durability points
“the only reason Link would not wear the mask is to give Cloud the advantage, so again CIS. ”
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Funny how you keep arguing against CIS. Generally, the rules actually keep CIS on characters when going into battle. The only time they are lifted is when the character has an inherent restriction to killing like Aang from Avatar. Are you sure you don’t mean PIS?
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8. Plot Shields
These are more commonly known as Plot Induced Stupidity (PIS) and Character Induced Stupidity (CIS), and have varying degrees of relevance to FactPile battles.
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PIS is known to be a plot device to alter and/or otherwise give a combatant advantages or disadvantages that are not considered to be part of his/her standard power set or equipment. These are not to be used in battles unless they are specifically addressed by the scenario, or are otherwise associated with the combatants current incarnation.
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CIS is known to be restrictions, limits, and/or tenets inherently held by a combatant as an integral part of his/her persona. These generally stand, but are lifted if they prevent the combatant from reaching victory as explained in rule number “7″.
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“Prove that WW was an evil barrier”
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You answered it with your own question. Ganondorf is evil and is demonic, and uses dark magic, therefore his spells are dark based and/or are demonic in nature, and the Master Sword dispels it.
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“You have yet to prove Clouds strength and speed for which you’ve given no examples of outside of sword play”
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So strength that doesn’t include swordplay doesn’t count now? Okay then, prove how Link’s arms won’t shatter when Cloud connects a blow with it. In AC/ACC, the sheer momentum of Cloud’s slash created a crater in the steel structure that Sephiroth was standing on when he first blocked it. The Golden Gauntlets allow him to slice boulders, but what are those boulders made out of? Are they sandstone or granite? This same question has been brought up before and I don’t remember you answering it. In any case, slicing layers of concrete and steel appears to be more impressive than mere stone.
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“Link has the Pegasus seed and pegasus boots pushing him to x8 his natural speed, not even including the bunny hood”
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I don’t suppose x8 his natural speed will allow him to react to a guy who can casually slice bullets out of the air…
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“Let’s go with Clouds FF7 gameplay display then, he can only swing his blade diagonally unless doing a limit break. WOW!”
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Let’s go with what Cloud shows in AC/ACC: dual wielding, switching between different sword styles, changing tactics on the go, using more effective swords when required, etc. Also, in the case of your argument, having more styles is generally favored if the opponent is your equal. If the opponent can compensate with stats that are so laughably superior, then it doesn’t matter how much styles someone knows.
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“Gameplay mechanics”
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Not if shown in AC/ACC. I don’t remember Cloud’s clothes and/or that ribbon he has on him burning when Bahamut’s energy ball fired on him. Note: this same energy ball was effortlessly destroying steel structures.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeyyJSmLW3w#t=2m53s
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYmlJoCk7uU&feature=relmfu#t=2m25s
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“Still not hearing ya prove the blade is made of special material or forged any differently then the buster sword except for the same physics ignoring “I don’t want to have to defend my claim” speel.”
How the hell does “it displays vastly superior attributes than steel” not prove that it’s a material that isn’t steel?
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“Prove that WW was an evil barrier, Gannondorf didn’t know Link was even in the Castle at that point, and never had time to make it there.”
I literally said in the very same paragraph that I wasn’t the one making the argument, I was just going by what was being said. Come off it.
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“You have yet to prove Clouds strength and speed for which you’ve given no examples of outside of sword play, as with your own arguements “Utilizes a different set of muscles”, while Link has the Pegasus seed and pegasus boots pushing him to x8 his natural speed, not even including the bunny hood.”
Allow me to reiterate something which has been said dozens of times in this thread that you seem to conveniently ignore every time it’s said: Cloud is strong enough for his arms to absorb a terminal-velocity impact of both himself and the Fusion Swords with no visible exertion (which is the same set of muscles that control lifting strength), and fast enough to move his arms into place to stop bullets *as they’re being fired*. If Zack is any indication, he can also dodge bullets being fired at him from below from a target he cannot see, making him even faster.
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“Styles: Short Sword, Long word, Great Sword, Hammer, Archery, ball and chain, boomerang, Crossbow, Martial arts, brawling, wrestling, Slingshot, whip, wands, blowgun, shield, bombs, Improvised(for unsual weapons). ”
I asked you what styles he’s a *master* of, not what items he happens to use.
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PossessionImpliesMastery
Just because he uses an item does not mean he’s suddenly a master of it.
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“Let me guess, your ‘I’m going to use gameplay mechanics to try and deny Link’s abilities.””
No, I’m going to use critical thinking and common debate practice.
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“Let’s go with Clouds FF7 gameplay display then, he can only swing his blade diagonally unless doing a limit break. WOW!”
Where did I ever say anything like this?
Simmer down, dude.
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“Gameplay mechanics, prove that “Glass and magic liquids” and materia are bomb proof.”
The fact that they never break? Even when Cloud is, say, falling from the Upper to the Lower Plate of Midgar in a cinematic (which cannot be game mechanics, since it’s a cinematic)?
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“Oh right this is Cloud, he doesn’t need to prove anything.”
Says the guy who has not provided a single shred of proof for anything he’s said to the guy who’s provided everything from screenshots to videos.
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“FF7, even with the speed, the spell runs out after 2 attacks, not four. So your wrong.”
Proof? Because although I haven’t playtested it yet, I distinctly remember that buffs run out twice as fast, but your ATB bar charges twice as fast as well (meaning half the duration, but same number of ‘turns’), and everything I can find that talks about it backs that up.
Also, this is pointless, since a ‘turn’ is an undefined length of time (that even changes from ‘turn to turn’, as things like Throw (just tossing something at your opponent) takes one turn, but so does casting a Summon).
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“By which you mean plot shield. Little hint, Clouds ‘crazy durability’ is named PG 13 and physics ignoring.”
Again, out-of-universe explanations are only accepted if it’s Word of God. So what if the animators/writers ignored physics? Cloud still withstood the attack/fall, which means it’s a usable feat.
shrugged off bullets: I don’t think a pair of goggles(which are bulletproof in real life) counts as shrugging off a bullet. The time he was shot, he basically went into death attack and likely would have died afterwards from multiple stab wounds allong with the bullet if not for lifestream intervention.
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Feats: Actually, given that the arguement in the past was that Link’s durability feats don’t count because it’s gameplay, can you really make that arguement?
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Link’s speed: So are ya basing your mathmatics on how fast you can run? Link would be able to run much faster as his main mode of travel is by foot, making him physically active, he is able to cross all of Hyrule in OoT within a day gametime or so, which is extremely fast. At a minimum let’s say he can run at the atletes minimum standard of 11 MPH. Pegausus boots makes ya run at x4 speed, so that is 44. Pegasus seed makes ya move x4, which is 176, so Daioni is wrong about the x8, likely because he didn’t take into account that the items are seperate.
“the basic gist I got was that the MS doesn’t remove all barriers, and the ones it does remove are universally either ‘evil’ barriers, or made with dark magic, and Cloud’s magic is neither.”
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This seems to make sense, as the MS is explicitly called “Evil’s Bane”, but has not been stated to have a barrier-destroying ability.
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“Magic Armor: Link has a wallet size of 9999, which is over 80 minutes of invulnerability.”
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Not when getting hit. The rupees drop rapidly when hit by a rather mundane attack, and Link is still knocked down by them. Considering Cloud’s strength, Link will still run out quickly.
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“Foursword: Copies equiptment as it copies his shield, already established that Link can utilize that aspect of the blade to copy any equiptment he has.”
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Was this ever directly stated? Because why would a magical item be multiplied by the sword?
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“Think of it this way; Link’s other equipment is his actual ‘equipment’. Anything found on the ‘c buttons’ (including masks, potions, etc) is the same sort of deal as Cloud’s inventory. It’s like how we’re not letting Cloud start with the pin pulled out of a grenade and his arm in a windup throw position.”
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But don’t both sides get prep time? Just a couple of minutes is enough time to put on the mask. The mask seems like something that should be allowed.
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“And, even without Shield up, I’m still not convinced Link can even hurt Cloud. He’s got some pretty crazy durability (surviving terminal velocity impacts totally unharmed and flying through Bahamut SIN’s giant energy ball of death are both good examples). ”
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Blunt force =/= penetrative force. A sneaky stab into Cloud’s neck will still work.
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“while Link has the Pegasus seed and pegasus boots pushing him to x8 his natural speed, not even including the bunny hood.”
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That’s still not fast enough to fight Cloud. Assuming Link runs at 15 mph (VERY generous), then even having his speed multiplied by 64 (a random number I came up with) will result in a speed of 960 mph. This is between Mach 1 and Mach 2. From what I remember, Cloud is faster than this.
““Magic Armor: Link has a wallet size of 9999, which is over 80 minutes of invulnerability.””
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I actually have a question in regards to Link’s equipment. Does he physically have to equip them piece by piece, or is there an in-universe explanation to how he can put in outfits so quickly? If it’s the former, wouldn’t Link actually start have a harder time once his rupees run out for his TP magic armor?
” I don’t think a pair of goggles(which are bulletproof in real life) counts as shrugging off a bullet”
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I don’t recall his goggles being able to absorb kinetic energy so, yes it would count as a durability feat because he shrugged off the kinetic energy
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“At a minimum let’s say he can run at the atletes minimum standard of 11 MPH”
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Calc time!
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11*4=44 mph/ 20 m/s
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Mach 0.17 with them. Cloud is supersonic (Mach 1-Mach 4)
“Does he physically have to equip them piece by piece, or is there an in-universe explanation to how he can put in outfits so quickly?”
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Theres nothing that remotely suggests the latter, so logically it would be safe to assume he has to actually equip them or alternate equipment in the same sense that we would
“How the hell does “it displays vastly superior attributes than steel” not prove that it’s a material that isn’t steel?” Fiction, you made that arguement for Clouds world not following normal laws of physics, so ya need more then a attempted ‘take back’ just to make an exception. Yer gonna have to prove the blade is made of something else without relying on the physics whic FF ignore. We have already had a sword manufacterer confirm that swords suitable for use are magnetic, so unless ya come up with something ‘earth shattering’ from FF that shows use a different method of creation, yer out of luck.
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Mastery/Possession: Given that Link can use any of his items effectively upon the first try, it would seem he has a nautural talent for using items. Let’s face it, who here actually threw a boomerang and had it come back to them on the first try? I think Dai is justified in claiming Link as a master of multiple weapons given that he can use them off the bat without pervious training and can only get better from then on.
“Cloud is faster than this” Can someone please provide proof that Cloud can run this speed, because I’m not seeing it in any clip I’ve found.
“I don’t think a pair of goggles(which are bulletproof in real life) counts as shrugging off a bullet.”
A) Are they really? I thought it was only military stuff like night vision goggles that were.
B) As StealthRanger pointed out, his head still absorbed the kinetic energy.
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“Feats: Actually, given that the arguement in the past was that Link’s durability feats don’t count because it’s gameplay, can you really make that arguement?”
When are we using in-game durability feats for Cloud? As far as I know it’s all from AC or cinematics in the original game (like falling into Aerith’s church).
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“Pegausus boots makes ya run at x4 speed, so that is 44. Pegasus seed makes ya move x4, which is 176, so Daioni is wrong about the x8, likely because he didn’t take into account that the items are seperate.”
Do they stack that way, though? Does it apply to total speed o rjust base speed?
And even if it works as you’re saying it does, that’s still 80 m/s. I’ll come back to this in a moment.
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“Mach 0.17 with them.”
Isn’t 0.17 of Mach 1 something like 57 m/s? Isn’t 20 m/s 0.059 of Mach 1 (I seem to be under the impression that mach 1 is ~340 m/s)?
If so, this would make British’s high-end estimate of Link (moving at 176 times his normal speed) would make him go at 80 m/s, which would be about Mach 0.235., which is still 4-5ish times slower than Cloud’s absolute low end. Which is bad news for Link.
“I think Dai is justified in claiming Link as a master of multiple weapons given that he can use them off the bat without pervious training and can only get better from then on.”
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I don’t think be capable of using something equals being a master of something.
Ball/Chain and the Hammers don’t really require much talent in using the way he does. Strength maybe but not much of what you would call a style or anything to be mastered.
Some of the swords don’t really seem to be used to differently from how he uses his regular sword…. Was he good at blocking with the biggoron sword or was that just an offensive weapon?
“I don’t think be capable”
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Being capable
Just to note about the above. Not talking about all the things he uses. Like the Bows and the aforementioned Boomerang do seem like he’s a master in archery and, uh, boomerang(ing?)….
I was the one earlier who brought up Link’s speed. A burst speed would start out at 27 miles per hour. An athlete’s speed would be around 12 miles per hour. The Pegasus Seeds and Pegasus Boots increase Link’s speed by 4. It is assumed the Bunny Hood doubles Link’s speed. That’s the low end, which is the safest.
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Burst Speed
27(2^4)
27(16)
= 432 ft./s
3,600 / 5280 = 0.6818 * 432 = 294 mph.
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Athletic Speed
12(2^4)
12(16)
= 192 ft./s
3,600 / 5280 = 0.6818 * 192 = 131 mph.
Oops, my bad. Actually, that’s 432 mph and 192 mph. :facepalm: I clearly wasn’t paying attention.
Wind Waker barrier quote:
“Now that the Master Sword is once again blessed with the power to repel evil, you should be able to break through Ganon’s Barrier and enter the tower!” — King of Red Lions
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Ganon’s barrier.. as in his evil powers created it. And it is explicately the power to repel evil that allows the Master Sword to destroy this barrier. Yeah…
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As for Link being a “master” at all his weapons and gear… a lot of his stuff doesn’t require true skill to use.
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Yeah, Link is a master swordsman and shield user, as well as a master horseback archer (citing OoT’s Gorudo horseback archery caorse here in addition to long range feats from TP and SS). Boomerang too as those are tricky.
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But a “master” with a warhammer? Not seeing it. The most he does with hammers is lift them up and bring them down on enemies, or he does a very large arcing swing to the side. He does use them to great effect, but he does so in a very simplistic manner; he just smashes things with them.
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Clawshot/Hookshot/Longshot/Switchhook is all point and click.
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He does have a good shot with the Seed Shooter, which is basically a semi-automatic rifle with abnormal ammo. He managed to hit several targets while speeding along in a mine cart while bouncing his shots off of walls. So he is probably a master marksman.
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Master spell caster? I think not. Link always relies on the Sages for the super heavy spell casting (OoT’s bridging to Ganon’s tower and sealing ganon; Lttp’s unsealing Ganon’s tower; Nayru and Zelda’s huge timey-whimmy ball things; Din’s control over the season; zelda sealing Ganon in FSA). He has some feats but his highest feats are simply things barrowed from even more powerful casters (OoS Din, OoA Nayru, OoTMM Zelda).
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He isn’t exactly a demolition expert either. He just lights fuses and throws bombs.
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The magic rods are just swing and cast items; he doesn’t do anything fancy with them.
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“Was he good at blocking with the biggoron sword or was that just an offensive weapon?”
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This deserves special note as Link could NOT block with that weapon. He would hold it defensively but it would not block damage. Although this makes sense of a sort since it is a completely different sword type than the one he is used to (claymore vs bastard sword) and different fighting style (two handed grip on one sword vs shield and sword style). He simply is a master of one style here and using the other weapon, effectively, but not masterfully.
You know, I think I messed up again on those speeds. Someone else can do them.
Athlete’s speed is 12 MPH.
Assumption: Link’s base speed is equal to Athlete’s speed.
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Link’s base speed: 12 MPH.
Bunnyhood == Speed x2
Pegasus Boots == Speed x4 (at deminised coarse correction)
Pegasus Seeds == Speed x 2 or 4 (requires charge up time and deminishes coarse correction)
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Math:
12 (base) x 2 (hood) x 2 (seed) == 48 mph
12 (base) x 2 (hood) x 4 (seed charge up time) x 4 (boots) == 384 MPH and link has to stand still for a while before hand and he is only going in a straight line.
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Additional logical conclusion:
Pegasus Boots (speed x4) prevent Link from altering his coarse without losing all his speed.
Pegasus Seeds (speed x2 or x4) only give him the x4 boost while he is going in a straight line and after a charge up (game mechanically this is exactly like the Boots), but as soon as Link breaks from that straight line his speed drops to x2.
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I gather from this that once Link exceeds x4 his normal running speed he cannot effectively alter his coarse without a significant drop in speed and manuverability.
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So this should put a firm hard line at 24 MPH while maintaining full manervability. His max speed requiring a short charge up time where he is defenseless and puts him in a predictable coarse would allow him up to 384 MPH though.
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I think I got all of that right.
“I gather from this that once Link exceeds x4 his normal running speed he cannot effectively alter his coarse without a significant drop in speed and manuverability.”
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Uhg. Horribly written sentance.
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I gather from this that once Link exceeds x4 his normal running speed without sacrificing manuverability and that he cannot effectively alter his coarse without a significant drop in speed.
Arg…
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I write terribadly now.
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Link … exceed x4 and he is going to go in a straight line.
Link… less than x4 and he keeps his ability to turn.
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YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN!
All right, now that’s just awesome how Link’s speed turned out to be half the speed of sound.
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*768 / 2 = 384
*1,126.4 / 2 = 563.2 ft./s.
Master: I agree he may not be a ‘master’ at everything, but he is very skilled at using equiptment without any formal training, and definatly is a master at more fighting methods then Cloud, who’s techniques revolve around sword fighting and magic. Not sure what else ye would expect from someone using a hammer as a weapon but smashing with it, but the hammer is an alternative weapon which Link can utilize in absence of his sword at the end of OoT to defeat Gannon.
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Demolition: Bit tricky, but Link does at times need to utilizes certian mechanics and locations to make his bombs effective, wither it be identifying weak points in a structure or bombing a certain location, so while not a master, he is definatly competent in using bombs effectively.
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Bullet deflecting: Reviewing the clips, Cloud deflects bullets with one of the lighter blades of the fusion sword, and deflects bullets from two gun weilders only while duel wielding said swords, so I think it’s safe to say that he requires one sword per opponent to deflect properly, and that a heavier sword would at most only be able to deflect one opponent’s fire at a time.
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Speed: Still waiting on some proof that Cloud can run at Mach 1, none of the clips show in accomplishing this. It Cloud can break the sound barrier(Mach 1) Please show the clip. As for what haste does:
finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Haste_(Status)-
Stacking speed: Look’s like this was discussed before, in favor of stacking due to Occum’s Razor, there is no special requirement on footwear, facewear, or food? for each item to work so they would stack.
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“Blunt force =/= penetrative force” I’m in agreement with that, as far as AC shows, Cloud is good at taking blunt force, but sucks against penatrative force. It reminds me of a Wonder Woman comic describing the difference where Diana learned caution when her sisters demonstrated that while she could take bloulders and blunt force with ease, an arrow could easily pierce her. Cloud likewise may be able to take a blunt blow, but a bullet, arrow, sword, or any slashing/piercing weapon is goint to be effective on him.
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Mask: I’m in agreement that the mask could be worn, it’s equiptment, not a potion, and if Cloud is allowed to utilize equiptment that gives him an innate advantage before battle begins stemming from equiptment, so can Link.
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Fusion Sword: Since nobody has given any evidence of the Fusion sword using special material or creation method, it woould be considered magnetic due to previously submitted evidence, so if Cloud brings it to battle, it is affected by the magnetic glove. If he brings the Ultima Weapon instead, it is not subject to this, but does keep Cloud from duel weilding, and reduces his effectivness against gaurding against multiple targets.
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Magic Armor: I’m wondering, are we including all his wallets? The giant’s wallet+ the Tycoon wallet equals far more then the 9999 limit, not to mention the extra wallets from skyward sword. I quess it doesn’t matter, as the magic armor from wind waker is equiptment itself rather then a spell(a crystal handed down from a merchent) Since Link starts off battle with his mask, he can drink the Romini Chateu and will be guarded for 3 days.
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“Cloud is strong enough for his arms to absorb a terminal-velocity impact of both himself and the Fusion Swords with no visible exertion” Looking over the clip, I believe the fact that the hallow pipe cushions the impact helped.
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Four Sword Copies: The four swords copies equiptment because it is magic. There is no reason it would not copy other magic equiptment as it is copying itself, the four sword being a magical item and retaining it’s other properties(repelling evil and sword beam) when split.
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Glass/Materia: So far I’m not seeing anything outside of game mechanics to suggest that glass and materia are invulnerable, and as Link is adept at finding specific weaknesses in his opponents, he would natural take advantage of this, shooting the materia. As the Shield materia would be lighting up quite frequently, this would be Link’s first target. The fact that the materia would also be slotted on the weapon Cloud uses to block with doesn’t help much either.
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Strength: Given that Link has the Golden Gauntlets or power bracelet, or whatever, It should make weilding any heavy weapons easier(if gameplay mechanics are ignored). Weapons like the megaton hammer or biggeron’s sword, could effectively be held in one hand.
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@British:
“Since nobody has given any evidence of the Fusion sword using special material or creation method, it woould be considered magnetic due to previously submitted evidence, so if Cloud brings it to battle, it is affected by the magnetic glove.”
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Stainless steel can rust. Stainless steel can also be ferritic and martensitic, which are magnetic, or austenitic, which is not. In order to prove Link’s magnetic gloves could take Cloud’s sword away is if you know whether or not his sword is ferritic/martensitic or austenitic.
“ferritic/martensitic” I have already done this in previous comments: A sword suitable strong, durable, and flexable enough to be used in battle is going to be magnetic due to the hardening process used with forms a specific type of magnetic metal in the blade. Since we have confirmed that FF swords can rust indicating the presense of ferrous material, and with the information given, we can determine that the Fusion sword would also be magnetic since they would use the same forging methods available. Unless alternative methods are proven, this would mean the sword is magnetic.
@British:
“A sword suitable strong, durable, and flexable enough to be used in battle is going to be magnetic due to the hardening process used with forms a specific type of magnetic metal in the blade.”
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Prove it.
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“Since we have confirmed that FF swords can rust indicating the presense of ferrous material, and with the information given, we can determine that the Fusion sword would also be magnetic since they would use the same forging methods available.”
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You’re basing this off one sword, not swords. I already told you stainless steel can rust, and it can also be austenitic.
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“Unless alternative methods are proven, this would mean the sword is magnetic.”
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It is up to you to prove it, since you’re saying it’s magnetic.
prove it: I have: science.howstuffworks.com/sword-making4.htm describes the sword making process in great detail, and I went out of my way to ask a sword manufacturer of usable swords if there are non-magnetic battle ready swords, to which he confirmed that a sword suited for combat would be magnetic, again due to the hardening process. FF gives no alternative methods of sword making, so swords would use the same methods available, as the buster sword is ferrous, that would mean the Fusion sword is unless a different method is specified, which no one has, resulting in a magnetic blade.
I’m curious about whether or not Cloud puts away his Fusion Sword in the same way he does with his Buster Sword. If so, then it should have a magnetic piece. Still, I don’t see how this is useful for Link.
I guess I’ll have to take your word for it, British. It seems the carbon steel is what makes it magnetic. I’ll have to read it later, but for now I’m heading how to see the new Spiderman movie. Later.
The magnetic Glove is capable of pushing and pulling the fusion, buster or any other metal sword, as the blades themselves are heavier then Cloud, and the force of the magnetic field can push heavy steel balls several times Link’s size, it would pull Cloud along with it, first allowing Link to either put distance between him and Cloud, or disarm him of his blade, and any materia attached to it. Second, it would allow Link to throw off Clouds aim blocking as he can force the sword to move. Since Link can split, he is more then capable of firing his projectiles and utilizing the glove at the same time.
I think this stone mask needs to be explored more. I saw a description of its powers earlier in the thread, but what are its in-game description and limitations?
Been looking over more of the information: Reflect and shield cannot shield against item based effects/spells or non-elemental spells, Link’s Oracle seeds, medallions(bombos, ether, quake), and bombs would bypass them as they are item based, much like Cloud’s granades would. I do wonder if Link’s sword beam would be considered non-elemental.
Stone Mask: It makes you plain as stone, basically invisible to anyone looking at you. The soldier who gives it to you can only be seen using the lens of truth. Once Link has the mask, he can wear it any time, no limits, or special requirements needed to keep it on. It does not require magic to employ it’s abilities. The mask makes you invisible to enemies, illistrated in that Link is unseen by the Deku palace guards in Majora’s Mask while wearing the mask, unless he walks directly into them.
@British:
“It makes you plain as stone, basically invisible to anyone looking at you. The soldier who gives it to you can only be seen using the lens of truth. Once Link has the mask, he can wear it any time, no limits, or special requirements needed to keep it on. It does not require magic to employ it’s abilities. The mask makes you invisible to enemies, illistrated in that Link is unseen by the Deku palace guards in Majora’s Mask while wearing the mask, unless he walks directly into them.”
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The Stone Mask does not make Link invisible. Zelda.com says the Stone Mask grants Link the power of stealth. The Stone Mask does not work when speaking to the Happy Mask Salesman. While you might say it didn’t work because Link caught the salesman’s attention, I doubt it.
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The guard who wore this mask says he was calling out to people as they walked by, but no one paid attention to him. He was as plain as stone. You could probably say the reason the salesman noticed Link was because he has an eye for masks. After all, he does say:
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“That’s the Stone Mask, isn’t it? That is a fine mask. It is filled with an appreciation for things that go unnoticed.”
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Then there are the Gerudo guards, who will notice Link’s presence. Even when Link is going to fight any of the Gerudos, they tell Link that they can see right through his stealth. Perhaps they have an eye for this, being pirates and all in Majora’s Mask.
@Protomind
Call it what you will, Cloud won’t be able to see Link, as it required the Lens of truth to see through it, and only a select few of the Gerudo gaurds are able to see through the mask. If anything, it makes it even harder to detect Link, as if the Soldier was calling out to people, that means they couldn’t hear him either. So Cloud cannot detect Link by visual or audio means.
Speaking of masks, another mask that is useful, the mask of truth:
“That is the Mask of Truth, isn’t it? You have a frightful mask. But being able to see into people’s hearts and minds seems useful…”
“FF gives no alternative methods of sword making, so swords would use the same methods available, as the buster sword is ferrous, that would mean the Fusion sword is unless a different method is specified, which no one has, resulting in a magnetic blade.”
+
So by assuming one blade is magnetic, all of them are? Have you even given any construction process’s for FFVII blades?
Construction process: Have you? If so by all means let us know, because I have already proven that any known constuction method would result in a magnetic blade, and that the FF swords contain ferrous material. Unless a unique process is pointed out, then the sword is magnetic.
*“FF gives no alternative methods of sword making, so swords would use the same methods available, as the buster sword is ferrous, that would mean the Fusion sword is unless a different method is specified, which no one has, resulting in a magnetic blade.”*
—
So since something is not explained, you are allowed to fill it with your own made-up fact?
Fact is, the other swords Cloud acquired aren’t the same as Buster sword, from shape to performance ro durability, some time ability.
Common sense dictate that they were forged by different smith/facility (Buster Sword itself was a heirloom, that mean a rather old weapon, that mean the forging method could be old and the forger most likely stopped producing more) and very likely different materials (more modern one, at least).
@British:
“Call it what you will, Cloud won’t be able to see Link, as it required the Lens of truth to see through it, and only a select few of the Gerudo gaurds are able to see through the mask.”
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It doesn’t matter, since Link would need to put it on first.
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“If anything, it makes it even harder to detect Link, as if the Soldier was calling out to people, that means they couldn’t hear him either. So Cloud cannot detect Link by visual or audio means.”
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Incorrect. Just because no one stopped to do anything about the soldier, doesn’t mean they couldn’t hear him. It simply means they ignored him.
” (Buster Sword itself was a heirloom, that mean a rather old weapon”
it was made for angeal when he became 1st class
commisioned by his father
its less than 30 years old
so its not that old
“It simply means they ignored him.”
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This is an interesting perspective on the Stone Mask.
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In the Link battle royal match I concluded that the Mask’s magic muffles his voice somehow, but since its magic is to “make as intersting as a stone” then would you really care if it was talking to you or not? Okay, yeah, some people would find a talking stone interesting if they thought about it, but magic is altering their perception; they aren’t thinking normally. So any action, either motion or sound, should be as uninteresting as a random stone… or something like that
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That actually changes how I think of how it works.
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Also of note: not all humans ignored Link while wearing the Stone Mask. The Happy Mask Salesman, who would be intersted in masks such as the Stone Mask, could see through it as well as Gerudo guards; they would be people who are on high alert for anything suspicios. A randomly moving rock could fall into that catagory and by extension the magic would fail. Or they could be rock collectors! The other enemies that can sense him through the mask are enemies that don’t rely on sight, or are bosses but I think game mechanics could be that last one.
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Still though, it is a pretty cool ability that is likely to work at least somewhat for a little while… unless Cloud just stars spamming AoE spells.
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“Speaking of masks, another mask that is useful, the mask of truth: ”
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Completely useless. It has an effective range of at most 15 feet. Usually used within arms reach.
*” (Buster Sword itself was a heirloom, that mean a rather old weapon”
it was made for angeal when he became 1st class
commisioned by his father
its less than 30 years old
so its not that old*
—
3 Decades is old.
It’s 30 years to advance the metal industry/processing and forging method.
yes its old and your right but the way you worded it made it seem alot older
*” (Buster Sword itself was a heirloom, that mean a rather old weapon”
it was made for angeal when he became 1st class
commisioned by his father
its less than 30 years old
so its not that old*
—
IMO
almost 3 Decades is old.
It’s almost 30 years to advance the metal industry/processing and forging method.
Sorry, internet problem, I double posted by mistake
How’d it do that? Normally whenever I do something like that it always says ‘dupe post’ and only posts one copy
@OriginalA:
“This is an interesting perspective on the Stone Mask.”
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I should not have treated that as if it was the correct interpretation. That was a bold claim on my part. I thought I would just present an alternative. I’m still glad someone thought it was interesting.
“How’d it do that? Normally whenever I do something like that it always says ‘dupe post’ and only posts one copy”
riverlia waited 5mins and added IMO
either alone will let the comment get through
Bold claim or not, Proto-Mind, it makes better sense to me than what I had previously assumed. Occam’s Razor actually favors it over my previous claim.
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The mask’s power makes you uninteresting.
I claimed that it muffled sound.
You claimed that the sound was ignored.
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I made the extra assumption that it prevented others from hearing your voice. Your claim is that they heard it, but it wasn’t interesting and so ignored.
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Considering the fact that our minds are wired to ignore uninteresting or repeated sounds, I find your claim to be rather plausable. I’m adopting it!
Nice!
So… the Stone Mask is like the Somebody Else’s Problem Field from Hitchhikers’, then?
I’m haven’t read those books so I can’t say for sure, but a quick wiki search leads me to belive that yes they are almost the same thing.
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If you have watched Doctor Who, it is a lot like the Perception Filter that the Doctor uses/points out occasionally. That things just makes you not want to notice something even though you see/hear it. You are subconsciouly aware of it; your senses receive the information of (e.g. you hear it, you see it, ect), but your conscious mind doesn’t regerster that information so you are never aware of it.
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If you have read the Twany Man series (part of the Realm of the Elderlings series) then it is a lot like when Thick would Skill “Don’t see me” at people and his magic would make them ignore him. He doesn’t disappear, but they just ignore his presence so it seems like he disappears.
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What I was talking about with Proto-Mind is just a difference of the exact mechanics of how it accoplishes this effect, and that ended with me concluding that his idea is more likely.
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Also, like the examples I mentioned, the Stone Mask can be rendered ineffective. There are human/hylian characters that will always notice Link even when he wears the Stone Mask. They are people who would be looking for things out of place though. The Doctor Who perception filter can be overcome by becoming aware that something is altering your perception and deliberately looking for what it is hiding (through the corner of your eye seems to be best for this specific example). Thick’s Skilling could be countered by being aware that it was use of the Skill and then by acknowledging that it was a Skill suggestion, and choosing to ignore that suggestion, it would fail to hide him.
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A Star Wars example would be using a Jedi Mind Trick to cause people to ignore you; like in Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight. It is by this method that Kyle Katarn can become “invisable”. Okay, yeah, he is shown as invisable but fluff-wise he is just using mass mind control to prevent people from acknowledging that he is there.
so essentialy with the stone mask he acts just like a grey man from wheel of time
“They become Gray Men, ordinary-looking folk who are, in fact, very difficult to notice, to the point of ‘hiding in plain sight’: to a person not specifically looking for one, a Gray Man carrying a knife is about as interesting as an old chair, the eyes will perceive them but the mind will write them off as nothing important. Their ubiquity and unremarkability is their primary asset, as they are sent as assassins against sensitive marks; frequently they do the deed without anyone even realizing they were there. “
The magic is the same but the Stone Mask makes one appear as a stone rather than “peasant number 4″.
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“If you use the Lens of Truth near here and speak to the man you find… you may earn a mask that can enable you to blend into backgrounds and move about without being noticed.”
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“I’m shocked. You’re the first person who’s ever spoken to me. I’ve been here for many years, waving my arms around and asking for help, but everyone ignores me and passes me by. It’s ’cause I’m about as impressive as a stone, right?…I’m used to it, though.”
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“Umm…I have a request…Can you give me some medicine that would make even an unnoticable stone like me feel better?”
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“You got the Stone Mask! Wear it with (C) to become as plain as stone.”
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Same magic; different object.
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Thanks for the text though. Sounds like Gray Men are very effective assassins. Perhaps I shall consider them for a match I have in mind for assassins.
“Common sense dictate that they were forged by different smith/facility” That wouldn’t really matter, as the techniques for forging swords have remained relativly unchanged for hundreds of years, a 30 year old sword is really not going to be all that different from one forged 12 months ago. If the sword is forged somewhere else, they are going to be using the same techniques, heating the blade, folding the metal, hardening it, so again, unless something truely unique is pointed out about it, the buster sword and the fusion sword would share the same properties, reguardless of where they were made, which only would result in a difference in make quality.
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@Proto-mind: Since the mask is equiptment, Link can wear it at the start, much like Cloud wearing his sprint shoes and reflect ring from the start.
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@OriginalA:
Can you please provide proof that Cloud would be able to see through the stone mask, as only a select few can see through it, and nothing of it’s like exists in the Final Fantasy 7 universe. Given that the cannon description of the masks power is ‘power of stealth”, the perception filter theory is speculation at best, though it is interesting.
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Items: As I mentioned before, reflect and shield do not protect against Item based attacks, effects and spells, Given this, Cloud does not have the absolute defense some may claim him to have. Bombs would bypass them completely, as would the spells from Link’s madallions, meaning Link can inflict massive damage to him. Link’s oracle seeds would also bypass this, meaning Link can simply warp Cloud away with a gale seed, set him on fire with an ember seed and do whatever the mystery seed does to him.
“reflect and shield do not protect against Item based attacks” Wouldn’t that be most of Links inventory? Magic arrows are also item based, so the ice/fire/light arrows wouldn’t be reflected or shielded either. I think Link’s sword beam/skyward strike would also be considered a item based magic, as it does not require any special knowledge or spell like his actual spells do. Link has relatively few spells that would be considered upright spells: Thunder, shield, spell, fairy, jump, reflect, Nyru’s love, Din’s Fire, Farore’s Wind. Everything else is connected to an item or equiptment.
“It doesn’t matter, since Link would need to put it on first.”
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Both sides get Prep Time. It is part of the Factpile rules. Not to say it would protect against AoE spells, though, but still.
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“so essentialy with the stone mask he acts just like a grey man from wheel of time”
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I was thinking the same thing.