A match that has been asked for many times has finally hit the site.
Here we have the crafty veteran in Link, the ‘Ol hero of Hyrule going up against Cloud Strife of Final Fantasy.
For this match all powers are in play, which would *seem* to give an advantage to Link, but it doesn’t mean it would be an easy victory.
How do you think this fight would play out?
@ Daloni
the life stream isn’t helping him; it just is.
@ British
so the spirit of time is not in control of her stated portfolio? That’s pretty weak…. And just because Link can use time on a time entity in his verse does not mean anything in comparison to Sephy holding the lifestream. As has been stated many times on this site, “A god in one universe can be an ant in another”. That’s like me saying since Rand can lolstomp most of his verse and Dr. Strange can in his, Rand and Dr. Strange are comparable. Not even close.
Now the Chemistry is no NET change, there is still change. You freezing everybody stops ALL change. That is a major difference. Plus I am still not convinced that you can affect the lifestream or Cloud with the time stop, for reasons Zazax has already mentioned.
Ceila explicately gave her power to control time to the Phantom Hourglass, which is built into the Phantom Sword.
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“And as long as I trust my true power to the Phantom Hourglass… You have the ability to stop time!” – Ciela
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She wouldn’t have any control over time because she gave that power up in order to give it to Link. No duh she is effected by Time Stop. Link’s sword has her power!
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What would be more impressive is if Ciela could stop Nayru the Oracle of Time, who basically wills time to flow as she pleases; they never meet.
“What does this have to do with anything?”
A proven fact, you can’t create energy from nothing.
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“it’s less ‘passive and active’ than it is ‘pairing the materia that actually protects you up”
This is proven false by the fact that you cannot cast a materia until you equipt it either.
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“physical endurance”
That would be HP and vitality, and you have already determined that health and vitality are not effected by materia.
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“You can’t stick materia in a Mako Reactor.”
Strawman, I never said anything about sticking materia into mako reactors. Materia are formed of crystalized Mako, either from reactors or springs. these materia are proven to have a link to the lifestream to make the connection, they do not wear out, thus they must be drawing energy from somewhere. They get stronger with use, indicating that something is further enchancing them, and since mako is what makes up a materia, it is most likely mako that is enhancing it further.
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“since it would freeze his materia before they could gather energy to resist.”
I think I can accept that as logical. However, it would prevent Cloud access to his offensive materia and spells, which since he opens with gives Link the time he needs to slip his mask on and split, afterwhich he cannot be targeted
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“the three Master materia, Time + Added Effect, MegaAll, and if there’s room, Final Attack + Phoenix”
Final attack plus phoenix will not work, as there is only one master summon, which utilizes the phoenix materia in it’s creation, and unlike magic and command materia, there is only one materia for each summon. Final attack does not work with master materia. Also Cloud has no reason to equipt Mega All with the information he has, a single swordfighter.
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“But that doesn’t matter. The non-magnetic bit is simply a byproduct of using steel alloys to strengthen other aspects of the blade”
It means magnatism is not a factor in constructing the blade, by which it is more likely to be created using a common method. As stated: “The alloy used is almost always a form of carbon steel.” I am currently getting in contact with sword manufacturers for some official statements on common sword steels and what percentage of battle ready swords are magnetic: www.sword-manufacturers-guide.com/sword-steels.html.
“the life stream isn’t helping him; it just is.”
If it’s being treated as an idependent entity, Cloud isn’t allowed to utilize it’s powers as it is considered aid. Link is not allowed to use fairies as they are independent entities, he is not allowed to summon as his companions are independent entities. If the lifestream is allowed to act on it’s own accord to hinder Link’s abilities, it is considered an independent entity and is not allowed to be present.
” If the lifestream is allowed to act on it’s own accord to hinder Link’s abilities, it is considered an independent entity and is not allowed to be present.”
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How is it hindering Link?
I thought the lifestream was something like the Warp from 40k. Why wouldn’t it be allowed?
“How is it hindering Link?”
If the lifestream can act against link’s timestop to stop it from affecting it, and therefore help Cloud, it is the act of an independent entity. Independent entities/allies are not allowed. Clouds summons are considered non-independent entities, Links animal companions/fairies/spirit allies are considered independent entities, and cannot lend aid or be drawn on for powers/blessings or abilities there presense requires. If the lifestream is capable of acting against Link to Clouds benefit, it is an independent entity.
@ Lowk
He’s not understanding what I said. Maybe you can alleviate that with your helpful analogy.
@ British
The materia grow stronger with the experiences of the one using it. That’s why it levels as you gain EXPERIENCE. Plus how is there any proof that his materia wouldn’t function due to the time stop? (which I still don’t believe you could get off in time) If materia= mako= life stream, and lifestream is immune to time stop, his materia logically should be fine. The CASTER may be stopped if he has no defense, but the gear itself? No. There is no need for the materia to even gather energy as they are not siphoning anything off the life stream. The materia’s trigger is the caster/user (mp). If the caster is not stopped, the ability to use the materia is not stopped unless his mp is drained, which to my knowledge Link cannot do. And even IF his offensive spells are negated, his physical prowess is sufficient to end this in short order. Cloud is not like Sephiroth (toys with opponents). He’s the “destroy the enemy until the engagement is over” type (AC). Even if Link can take a couple hits, Cloud won’t relent until the conflict is over.
@ Daioni
The life stream is NOT negating the time stop. Time Materia IS. Cloud’s gear, not the life stream, are protecting him. By your argument Link can’t even stop time by using Celia’s power through his sword. See what I did there? If I had argued this first you would have said that is foolish as it is not the entity helping but rather an ability inherent in an item the character currently possesses.
I reiterate: the life stream is NOT helping Cloud. It just is. His MATERIA is what is keeping link from touching him
“The life stream is NOT negating the time stop”
You argued it would stop itself from being stopped in time, therefore it is acting on it’s own accord, therefore it is an independent entity. I said nothing about Cloud being stopped.
“You argued it would stop itself from being stopped in time, therefore it is acting on it’s own accord, therefore it is an independent entity.”
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This is exactly how the Time materia works when it is used to protect against Time stop. It is AUTONOMOUS. It is NOT independant. There is a difference.
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If the Time Materia’s protection from Time Stop didn’t work that way then it would not work at all.
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When Time Stop is used against a target that is immune to Time Stop it does not say “miss”. It says “immune”. The Time Stop spell connects. It attempts to stop time for that target. It fails because of actively working protection. In this regard Link’s Time Stop spell is no different. It will attempt to effect Cloud’s travel through normal time, and it will fail for exactly the same reason; the magic of the materia is protecting him and preventing negative change.
“A proven fact, you can’t create energy from nothing.”
in fantasy you can
To say you can’t create energy from nothing is proof that this poor unfortunate soul hasn’t watched Gurren Lagann.
“proof that this poor unfortunate soul hasn’t watched Gurren Lagann.”
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THIS MUST BE CORRECTED!!!!
“proof that this poor unfortunate soul hasn’t watched Gurren Lagann.”
well neither have i
i want to but i need ti get caught up on fate/zero
www.hulu.com/gurren-lagann
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Do it now!
after fate/zero
Actually, I think in Gurren Lagann the the energy is less coming out of nowhere and more coming out of the character, kinda like DBZ, unless someone can confirm otherwise?
Alright, I’ve kinda skimmed the thread, and from what I’ve seen, Cloud has most, if not all, of the advantages.
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However, I must ask if the LttP powers have been brought up. Specifically, the Magic Cape and the Bombos Medallion. The Magic Cape, which is described as making something “invisible”, allows in-game Link to not get hurt at all. Link can touch enemies and walk over spikes with no ill effects. The Bombos Medallion kills everything on screen. While this may not mean an automatic kill on Cloud, it would indicate a lot of damage is being delivered. Thoughts?
I believe those could greatly benefit Link if he can get them off in time. I believe it’s dependent on starting locations. Shield/barrier/magic barrier could negate or mitigate the damage at the very least. I wonder how sense would fare against the cape….
Magic Cape thus far has been Link’s best defensive option. I think Dispell might spill be able to wrok against it though provided Cloud gets a lucky hit with it. Death should still work too; again provided it connects. There was a lot of discussion about the Magic Cape earlier; I forget what the end conclusion was exactly.
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Bombos is fire magic; that heals Cloud when Shield is up and active.
@Messenger OriginalA
I watched Madoka Magica and I seen Gurren Lagann, what else do you need from me? T_T
Playing BlazBlue or watching the BlazBlue playthroughs?
Prior stuff has since been handled, so skipping ahead:
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“That would be HP and vitality, and you have already determined that health and vitality are not effected by materia.”
HP and vitality represent how close to dying you are (what with the ‘Near Death’ status effect that pops up when your haelth is low and all). It is not physical endurance.If you run out of endurance you pass out/stop to catch your breath/whatever. If your HP runs out, you die. They are not equivalent.
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“Strawman, I never said anything about sticking materia into mako reactors. ”
No, I did, as a comparison (if you can’t tell the difference between a comparison and a strawman argument, I’d stop trying to call people out for them). You were equating them, and I was just showing that, while they may be made of the same stuff, they’re not the same thing.
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“Final attack plus phoenix will not work, as there is only one master summon, which utilizes the phoenix materia in it’s creation, and unlike magic and command materia, there is only one materia for each summon.”
This is just blatantly false. There are only two ways to get the Master materia: Combine a full set of mastered materia at the Huge Materia in Bugenhagen’s observatory (note that mastering a materia produces a duplicate, so you’ll still have a duplicate of each and every materia used this way), or by trading the Earth Harp (won by defeating Emerald Weapon) to the collector guy in Kalm (he gives you a free set and doesn’t touch your other materia). Either way, you still have a copy of the original materia.
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“Also Cloud has no reason to equipt Mega All with the information he has, a single swordfighter.”
You mean, kind of like how Link has no reason to equip a bunch of his stuff to defend against the out-of-nowhere abilities (which nobody would expect a supersoldier swordsman to have otherwise) Cloud has?
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“It means magnatism is not a factor in constructing the blade, by which it is more likely to be created using a common method.”
As I said before, that doesn’t matter. One of the most common sword steels is alloy metal, and the most common element added to alloy steel is manganese, which demagnetizes it (and it’s followed closely by nickel and molybdenum, which also de-magnetize it).
Now, the very reason for these alloys’ existence is that they give the metal properties it wouldn’t otherwise have if it was just carbon steel (such as even greater hardness). Why wouldn’t Cloud make his super combo-swords of death out of the best material he can find?
And besides, one thing that has been overlooked: Cloud’s swords are obviously not regular old steel. Look at what his swords do to regular steel. Look at what the very same impacts his swords survive unscathed do to regular steel (that scene I posted earlier, where Kadaj just turns into Sephiroth, is a good example of this). It’s obviously not just any old steel (or maybe not even steel itself, we don’t know).
So, again, impossible to determine due to lack of data.
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“I am currently getting in contact with sword manufacturers for some official statements on common sword steels and what percentage of battle ready swords are magnetic:”
Well, props for thoroughness. I’m actually interested to hear about that, however little it may apply to the actual debate.
However, remember; real world does not equate fantasy world. Creating energy from nothing is actually a good example of this; plenty of fictional universes can do it despite it being impossible in real life.
Unless you can bring up something Earth-shattering, however, I stand by the whole ‘impossible to determine due to lack of data’ thing I mentioned earlier. There’s just too many things it may or may not be, and absolutely no definitive in-canon answers.
“There was a lot of discussion about the Magic Cape earlier; I forget what the end conclusion was exactly.”
I was arguing that certain things (primarily gravity) still affect Link, so the Demi series of spells should still work (or, if Cloud has to worry about targeting, just drop the AOE Demi3), among a few other things.
“Bombos is fire magic; that heals Cloud when Shield is up and active.”
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What about the Quake Medallion, which harms all the enemies on the screen?
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“Magic Cape thus far has been Link’s best defensive option. I think Dispell might spill be able to wrok against it though provided Cloud gets a lucky hit with it. Death should still work too; again provided it connects.”
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From the way it works, it appears to make Link intangible, as he can pass over spikes without being injured. (Unless spikes have to see you to hurt you). If Link can attack with the Cape, he may just be able to sneak up to Cloud and kill him with a quick stab in the neck/heart/head.
@ Aelfinn ( go WoT!)
I think the cape could be a problem but how would it interact with shield/barrier? The fact that it lessens incoming blows might mean it is a shield not unlike Wheel of Time Air shields, just to a lesser degree. (Still letting attacks through, just mitigating the damage.) Unless it’s pretty much a Coup De Grace, I think he’d get tagged by Link then get away as quickly as he could to regroup. The cape is a good tool though.
Quake is earth based magic (hence the earthquake; also a japanese joke since a catfish gives it to you. In japanese mythology catfishes cause earthquakes).
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Earth based magic heals Cloud while Shield is active. The spell itself can be dodged by leaving the ground for the duration of the spell and Cloud has a rather good jumping height (note quite sure if it is enough though since Quake also has a long duration).
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Quake’s polymorphic effects are canceled out by the Ribbon which prevents Cloud from being polymorphed.
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And all of the medallions from LttP have a longer cast time than Cloud’s spells, so these are going to leave Link open for attack unless he takes precautions before hand.
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Magic Cape is wonky. If it made Link completely intangible he would fall through the ground, but he doesn’t so it must not do that. Yet if it doesn’t then how does he walk through bumpers? It’s wonky and inconsistent with itself. Zazax does bring up a going point that gravity is always consistantly applied so Demi (gravity magic) should still hurt Link regardless. … although Demi, by the spell’s design, cannot kill.
“I think the cape could be a problem but how would it interact with shield/barrier? The fact that it lessens incoming blows might mean it is a shield not unlike Wheel of Time Air shields, just to a lesser degree. (Still letting attacks through, just mitigating the damage.) ”
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How do Cloud’s shields work? If they just “mitigate incoming damage” and that isn’t just game mechanics, then a stab to the brain isn’t going to be mitigated. By the way, I’m pretty sure that that is the complete opposite of WoT shields. WoT shields form an impenetrable barrier.
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“(or, if Cloud has to worry about targeting, just drop the AOE Demi3),”
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Hmmmmmmm, that could be a problem. How strong is this attack, and what does it do, exactly?
“Earth based magic heals Cloud while Shield is active.”
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“Shield” seems like quite the spell. Quite more than just a shield, in fact.
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“And all of the medallions from LttP have a longer cast time than Cloud’s spells, so these are going to leave Link open for attack unless he takes precautions before hand.”
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I figured that he would use it while using the Cape. With Shield active, though, that only leaves the Ether Medallion. Do you know if the Ether Medallion is time-based, or if it magically freezes enemies? I have a feeling it is time-based, as it also stops the rain when it is used in one particular case. I don’t know, though, if the rain stopping is an effect of the Ether Medallion, or just a “game mechanic”.
“How do Cloud’s shields work?”
Depends on which one you’re talking about. The actual spell called Shield nullifies all physical damage, and absorbs elemental damage to hel Cloud (elements in this case being fire, water, air, ice, lightning, poison, gravity, dark, and holy). On the other hand, Barrier and MBarrier just half the damage taken by physical/magical attacks respectively, and Reflect bounces (most) magic back on the attacker.
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“Hmmmmmmm, that could be a problem. How strong is this attack, and what does it do, exactly?”
Demi is sort of… weird. I’m not 100% sure what it does out-of-gameplay, but in-gameplay it deals a % of the target’s HP in damage (and as such will, in-gameplay, always leave the target with at least 1 HP. Not sure how this translates out of gameplay though). And we know it’s gravity-based because the Demi spells are the only ones found on the Gravity materia.
ugh. That should be ‘absorbs elemental damage to heal* Cloud.
@OriginalA:
“Magic Cape is wonky. If it made Link completely intangible he would fall through the ground, but he doesn’t so it must not do that. Yet if it doesn’t then how does he walk through bumpers? It’s wonky and inconsistent with itself.”
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This usually happens in fiction. It’s probably one of those things some fiction writers don’t think about. Two ways to resolve this is that the intangible character chooses to keep his or her soles in a solid state, or that character is able to float in the air, kind of like Kitty Pride.
“Two ways to resolve this is that the intangible character chooses to keep his or her soles in a solid state, or that character is able to float in the air, kind of like Kitty Pride.”
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I get where you are coming from, but that still doesn’t quite ring true. Link can still fall through holes in the ground so he cannot float in the air, yet if his soles in his shoes were solid state then his feet would just fall through them… unless his feet were solid as well, but then why don’t the spikes hurt him? It’s wonky… kinda like the Song of Storms (which is an ontological paradox). Or the various invulnerabilities Link has where kinetic energy is being delivered to his body yet he doesn’t get any injuries even when it would be reasonable for him to sustain them. Basically: Magic.
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But he can’t fly, and gravity is still in full force. Cloud has magic that can open fissures in the earth and he has gravity magic; he should at least be able to push Link around making it difficult for Link to get a good hit in.
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Ether Medallion is Lightning/Ice based. It is stated to control the atmosphere and polar winds. Shown it shoots down a bolt (lightning? I guess) and it freezes airborn enemies in ice. The SNES Manual says it is ice based.
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Ice, Wind, and Lightning are all elements in FF7 and as such are absorded by Shield to heal Cloud. … And yes, Shield is an awesome spell in FF7. It has (I think) the second highest MP cost per cast, and it basically makes you invulnerable for a short while. There are a few things that can get through, but most of the stuff either gets shut down or absorbed to heal the person who is shielded. There is a reason you only get it at the very end of the game and even then you have to grind monsters in order for it to be usable for the final battle.
@OriginalA:
Great points for both on the intangible bit. I got a laugh out of it. It’s a shame Link loses, but Cloud just has better options. Oh well.
“real world does not equate fantasy world”
Then prove the blade is made of a fantasy material, because the simplest explaination is they just ignored sword durability. Until you prove that the sword material is unique, then it can be assumed that the sword is a regular sword.
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As for the wither swords used in combat are magnetic:
“You’d be hard pressed to find a non-magnetic sword that would be suitable for anything but display. During the manufacturing of a blade, martensite is formed in the hardening process, so any blade meant for use is going to be magnetic.”
-Paul Southren
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So as far as wither Clouds sword is magnetic or not, all indications show: Yes, yes it is.
“Cloud has magic that can open fissures in the earth and he has gravity magic; he should at least be able to push Link around making it difficult for Link to get a good hit in.”
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The gravity magic is explicitly non-lethal and Cloud would have to know where to open the fissures. If Link can wait out the Shield (how long does it last?), then he has a shot.
Shield normally lasts Four turns, however, Cloud also has his sprint shoes on that cause auto haste, so his shield lasts half the time. Also, if Link stops time, even if Cloud himself is not stopped, his connection to the lifestream is, so he would not be able to cast spells for the duration.
If Link shows up in his Magic armor, wouldn’t he also show up in the stone mask? Or split into four for that matter, after all, none of those things are specifically prepping for Cloud or his abilities.
Can Link put on the magic armor and the stone mask at the same time?
Why would he show up in either of those?
Same reason Cloud shows up wearing his sprint shoes and reflect ring.
Magic armor was never shown to equip with The stone mask. How’s Link going to damage Cloud again?
“Until you prove that the sword material is unique, then it can be assumed that the sword is a regular sword.”
British, I’m growing tired of arguing with you over this, because you don’t seem to understand that you need to prove *Cloud’s* swords are magnetic, not regular ones. They are obviously not made of regular steel, because we see them withstand things that effortlessly demolish regular steel.Sephiroth is able to cut through steel with one hand and a casual swing, yet he has yet to even nick the Fusion Swords, for one thing.
So, again, it’s up to *you* to prove it’s a magnetic metal (since it’s obviously not steel), not us to prove it isn’t.
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“So as far as wither Clouds sword is magnetic or not, all indications show: Yes, yes it is.”
See above.
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“Shield normally lasts Four turns, however, Cloud also has his sprint shoes on that cause auto haste, so his shield lasts half the time.”
But we don’t know how long a ‘turn’ is in real-time, so the issue is moot.
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“If Link shows up in his Magic armor, wouldn’t he also show up in the stone mask? Or split into four for that matter, after all, none of those things are specifically prepping for Cloud or his abilities.”
He can’t for the same reason Cloud can’t buff himself before the fight starts. If he just equips it (like his boots, tunic, Golden Gauntlets, and such) he starts with it. If it’s something Link normally has to activate to use and it isn’t always on (such as his masks), he has to wait until the fight has begun. Otherwise it’s like starting to run before the race actually starts.
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“If Link can wait out the Shield (how long does it last?), then he has a shot.”
Isn’t this sort of thing (ie. hiding) usually treated as a ‘surrender’? It certainly is when Stargate is involved (with almost this exact same situation, in fact; phase cloaking and waiting out the worst of it).
“Same reason Cloud shows up wearing his sprint shoes and reflect ring.”
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Except those are things he always has on. Reason Link can’t come to the battle with magic armor already equipped is the same reason why Cloud can’t use materia to buff himself before the fight starts
“since it’s obviously not steel” actually, it obviously is, as you see rust on the buster sword, while other metals metals corrode, rust is unique to iron and steel, so the sword has to be made of those materials in addition to any other materials, thus so would the fusion swords, so again, the evidence presented proves that Cloud’s weapons are made of steel and that battle quality swords are magnetic. Unless you present actual evidence of your claim that it can’t be steel other then a plot shield of fiction ignoring sword durability, Cloud swords are magnetic, and the only thing keeping you from accepting that fact is just plain stubbornness.
Link doesn’t need to activate masks, he just has to wear them, it is by nature equiptment, just as the Pegasus boots, sword, and shield is. Other then gameplay mechanics, there is no reason he cannot come into battle wearing it if Cloud is allowed to be fully equipt at the start other then CIS. And as shown in Four swords, just the act of pulling the sword from the pedestal caused link to split, so if he has it, he would have already been split.
“actually, it obviously is, as you see rust on the buster sword, while other metals metals corrode, rust is unique to iron and steel, so the sword has to be made of those materials in addition to any other materials, thus so would the fusion swords”
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Wait, wouldn’t that only mean you have evidence of the original buster sword being what you say it is since the fusion sword is an entirely different weapon?
“actually, it obviously is, as you see rust on the buster sword, while other metals metals corrode, rust is unique to iron and steel, so the sword has to be made of those materials in addition to any other materials, thus so would the fusion swords, so again, the evidence presented proves that Cloud’s weapons are made of steel and that battle quality swords are magnetic.”
So, let me get this straight.
You’re saying that since the Buster Sword is rusting (a trait not unique to steel), that it must be steel, and therefore must be magnetic (which is not true, as there are non-magnetic steels). Then you make the leap in logic to say that since the Buster Sword is steel (which is speculation), that the Fusion Swords must be as well (flat-out fanfiction), despite the fact that they display none of the traits of steel other than being a metal, and very obviously display greater physical properties than steel (hardness, durability, etc). And then you say that I’m the one being stubborn and supplying no evidence? Give me a break.
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“Unless you present actual evidence of your claim that it can’t be steel other then a plot shield of fiction ignoring sword durability”
Oh, so it’s a plot shield now? How, exactly, is Cloud’s sword durability a plot shield? It’s only out of line with the rest of what we see if you assume it’s steel, which is okay since it’s never clarified as being steel and displays no properties unique to steel, so (having not been identified in any way as steel and showing superior than is possible for steel) it’s not steel. Get over it.
“rusting (a trait not unique to steel)” Rust is unique to ferrous material, so the blade contains iron, so the sword is a form of iron, steel is the optimal material for swords due to its flexibility and properties, it is confirmed that swords of battle quality made of steel, wither it be alloy or carbon is magnetic due to the hardening process used. Ye have provided no evidence of a fictional material or a method that swords are made any differently, have already said that physics are ignored due to fiction, have been shown that the weapons show the properties of a ferrous material, and have been given the evidence proving that the sword is magnetic when you asked for it. So yes, ya are being stubborn, as you will not concede when yer given the evidence proving Cloud sword has a property Link can take advantage of. Ye have argued well, but this is one yer gonna have to accept.
*looks at match title, then at description*
Dafuq? Dante?
why does it matter if clouds sword is magnetic or not. it in no way stops death from killing link
“Dante?”
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Yeah, Dante solos
No, Pyramid Head stalemates!
Master Galvatron punts him into orbit
@StealthRanger:
“Yeah, Dante solos”
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Was that meant as a joke, or was Cloud confused with Dante?
lol
ANYWAY….
It does say both combatants are at full power… Wouldnt that technically mean Cloud gets Ultima Weapon and Master Materia? (I have no interest in reading through 15 pages to find out if its been discussed XD ) If so, Links in deep shit…
fsr admin put Dante in the description instead of Cloud, and Xeno was like “da faq? Dante?”
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Hence the “Yeah, Dante solos” comment
To Post #1553:
Then Pyramid Head just teleports back, because he’s awesome like that.
’
Except…it didn’t say when he’ll be able to do this, so this might be moot.
“why does it matter”
Link has the magnetic glove which would push and pull the Fusion Sword, and Zazax is trying to say that the sword cannot be affected because it can’t be proven to be of a magnetic substance. We are given no methods of how FF forge their weapons, are shown that the weapons display ferrous properties, are given no indications that the fusion blades were made using any methods outside of those available, have confirmed that battle quality swords are magnetic, and still he says it is not enough and even though all indications show that the sword would be magnetic, it can’t be because Final Fantasy is fiction and ignores physics and sword durability.
“Then Pyramid Head just teleports back, because he’s awesome like that”
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Except he can’t teleport. Thus Galvatron punts him into orbit, or sucks him into an interdimensional portal
“Wouldnt that technically mean Cloud gets Ultima Weapon and Master Materia? ”
yes we also concluded dissedia feats are useble
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“Except he can’t teleport.”
pyramid head is a purly conceptual being
he should be able to appear where ever he wishes
post#1558
none of it matters because link is dead
Then Master Galvatron pastes him indefinitely
“Then Master Galvatron pastes him indefinitely”
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Then Asura came and the offtopicness ended.
“Then Master Galvatron pastes him indefinitely”
but..but pyramid head stalmated te saurom!!11!!!!!one!!1@[insert random emot]
“but..but pyramid head stalmated te saurom”
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No he didn’t
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“Then Asura came and the offtopicness ended.”
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Noes but Dante solos! (he in the description. So I can say Dante solos :pek)
“No he didn’t”
i know that was the joke
“i know that was the joke”
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I know lol
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Master Galvatron still pastes PH
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outskirtsbattledome.wikispaces.com/Character+Profile+-+Master+Galvatron
@FSK
In that case id say Cloud stomps.
He doesnt even need to draw his sword.
He summons Knights of the Round, Bahamut ZERO, Odin, etc, casts Comet, Ultima, etc.
Link is vaporized.
Using his Limit Breaks is just a bonus.
Or he insta-deaths Link, or polymorphs him, or death sentences him, strips him from his magic, drains his magic, etc
You know Cross talks a lot about Pyramid Head vs Sauron, but doesn’t seem to actually debate it. Just an interesting observation.
@XD
yep link fans arnt accepting it though
@Sorrow
Its funny, he talks so much about debates here and hijacks many threads to make them about mainland debates, but he never actually debates once
Link’s time stop at the very least prevents Cloud from using magic since it stops the lifestream, so his summons and magical attacks would not work.
@British
Are you joking?
FF has similar time affecting spells, including, but not limited to, Haste, Slow, and Stop.
Link gets HIS ass timestopped.
^And seeing as Cloud is immune to time stop while Link isn’t… yeah
Lol i pulled out my FF7 BradyGames guide…
@Britih
dosnt matter it was already detrermined cloud gets his spell off first
“You know Cross talks a lot about Pyramid Head vs Sauron, but doesn’t seem to actually debate it. Just an interesting observation.”
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I’ve always wondered what that’s about… I thought it was cuz Cross was a PH fan. Like how Stealth used to bring up dark(shnider(?).
@Atomic Lowk
Actually the match was so well thought-out by Pandemic, it became a legend in its own right.
You have to hand it to Pandemic, its one of the truly bright ideas we ever hear about to rival riding an Alpaca.
“Like how Stealth used to bring up dark(shnider(?)”
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What? Dark Schneider’s awesome
Link’s time stop is instantaneous, Cloud has to move. Link beats him.
As far as abstract entities with vaguely defined existences and powers go, both Sauron and Pyramid are in a deadlock as to who can mind fuck the most.
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It’s an interesting concept to ponder, but one wonders why Cross chooses every other thread to mention it.
“Link’s time stop is instantaneous, Cloud has to move. Link beats him.”
cloud acts beforlink due to vastly supirior reactions
See, British? I’m not the only one calling you on your BS.
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“Rust is unique to ferrous material, so the blade contains iron, so the sword is a form of iron, steel is the optimal material for swords due to its flexibility and properties, it is confirmed that swords of battle quality made of steel, wither it be alloy or carbon is magnetic due to the hardening process used. ”
And yet none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the Fusion Swords, so… nice Red Herring.
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Also, XD brings up an excellent point about Ultima Weapon. Best sword in the game, and it’s not even made of metal (closer to pure force). Link’s not magnetizing that, so yet another reason that your ‘lol magnetism’ argument is pointless and stupid.
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And then, of course, there’s the fact that Link is dead before he can use it anyways.
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“Link’s time stop at the very least prevents Cloud from using magic since it stops the lifestream, so his summons and magical attacks would not work.”
We’ve been through this before, and no it doesn’t. Cloud’s materia are what is giving him the ability to be immune to time stop. What exactly makes you think that the thing capable of making other people immune to time stop is not immune to time stop itself? Especially when the materia on each so immune person is also immune?
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“Link’s time stop is instantaneous, Cloud has to move. Link beats him.”
Link’s has to think about his time stop in order to use it. Cloud, being a bullet timer, is capable of moving/casting before Link time stops (not that it matters, him being immune to time stop and all), due to vastly superior reaction time and just plain faster arm movement speed. Seriously, do you know how fast bullets move? Most people don’t even have time to think “Oh shit” in the time it takes someone to squeeze a trigger and for the bulle tto hit them. In that time, Cloud can get his big, heavy sword into the path of said bullet. He’ll be even faster when casting without holding his sword.
What’s so hard to understand about this?
^not to mention some materia would give Cloud the ability to strike first
That MAY be gameplay mechanics, but regardless Sneak Attack and Pre-Emptive Materia ARE canon.
Fusion sword, same forging techniques equal same materials, so again, prove it is made of a special material or went through a different forging process.
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Ultima weapon is obviously a different material, as it is transparent. So it would not be affected, but this would also mean Cloud cannot wield the fusion sword and that his attacks get weaker as Cloud is injured.
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Cloud is immune to time stop, the world, and thus the life stream, is not, since his is magic is dependent on making a connection, he cannot cast while the lifestream is stopped, regardless of his immunity.
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Cloud, as ye pointed out, is a bullet deflector, moving this blade before a shot is fired, not after, so this is more akin to predicting where a shot will hit and moving his sword in between, not moving his sword faster then a bullet can travel.
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Link has to think time stop: game mechanics are ignored, Cloud has to wave his arm, Link does not, regardless of reaction time his movements are not faster then thought.
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Per-empt/sneak attack: when in use, the pre-empt increases the chance of getting the drop on an enemy, indicated by the enemy facing away as battle opens. Since Link and Cloud are both going into battle with knowledge of the other and are considered to see each other, this would be negated. Sneak attack uses game mechanics, and still requires the character to move, since thought is still faster then action, Link can still activate time stop.
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Daioni has a point about equiptment, he cannot buff himself with potions, but he has to equipt anything he wants to use, including his sword, shield, boots, and armor. The only reason he would not come with anything equipt would be CIS. Thus ignoring game play mechanics, any equiptment Link wants to come equipt in he would.
“The Magic Cape, which is described as making something “invisible”, allows in-game Link to not get hurt at all. Link can touch enemies and walk over spikes with no ill effects.”
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dosent the death spell gain an absolute chance of killing people when they are intangible? can someone confirm this
@wingedlion
I looked it up only applies to Final Fantasy 6. I guess I was wrong.
With all of the people pointing out how Cloud wins, I would also like to point out that the effects on Link’s Magic Cape have not been determined. It’s effectively the one thing keeping Link in the fight right now, but it still needs to be reasoned out.
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In regards with Cloud’s Shield, if it costs so much “MP” to cast, how is Cloud able to cast more spells afterwards? I don’t know the mechanics of FF7.
@Aeflinn
I think he just has restorative items for that…
Elixers and the other items that restore MP.
Link has a whole lot more going for him then just the magic cape. He can come equipt on the stone mask as it is equipment so Cloud can’t target him, he has the warp seed to quickly make an exit, the four sword to spit and pirate charm to make coordinated attack and time stop to prevent Cloud from using his magic, bombs to destroy Clouds items, arrows and the hawleyes to attack from a distance, magic armors and potions to keep him from taking damage. As long as Link prevents that first instant death spell, he can fight Cloud in a way Cloud cannot properly defend against. Magic Armor and time stop prevent anything cloud would first attempt, Link evades, splits, and takes cloud out with coordinated attack.
“In regards with Cloud’s Shield, if it costs so much “MP” to cast, how is Cloud able to cast more spells afterwards? I don’t know the mechanics of FF7.”
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Shield costs 120 MP.
Cloud maxes out at 999 MP if you have been level grinding and farming permanent stat boosting items.
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Shield costs a lot, but it doesn’t cost all of him MP, ergo he can cast more spells from remaining MP.
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And then MP restoring items, the potentially linked materia to MP Absorb so his spells will steal Link’s MP if they connect.
“Fusion sword, same forging techniques equal same materials, so again, prove it is made of a special material or went through a different forging process.”
Buddy, you don’t seem to understand the exact mechanics of Burden of Proof. It’s impossible to prove a negative (i.e. I can’t look at the Fusion Swords and definitively say “that’s not steel”). That’s why the person with the *positive* claim (in this case, you) must be the one providing proof.
However, the facts remain. We never see it display any traits unique to steel, and it’s far, far stronger than steel in-universe. This inclines me to believe it’s not steel.
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“Ultima weapon is obviously a different material, as it is transparent.”
Actually, it only becomes transparent when Cloud is badly injured. Most of the tme it’s translucent, and when he’s at or naer full health it’s totally opaque.
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“So it would not be affected, but this would also mean Cloud cannot wield the fusion sword and that his attacks get weaker as Cloud is injured.”
A) What’s do bad about Cloud not using the Fusion Swords? He did fine without them pre-AC
B) Actually, it’s less ‘his attacks become weaker as he is injured’ and more ‘his attacks are stronger when he has more than half health, and then weaker when he has less’.
C) That ‘weakening as he takes damage’ thing is pointless since, again, Link is dead before he can do anything.
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“Cloud is immune to time stop, the world, and thus the life stream, is not”
Except that you’re arguing that the very thing that makes him immune to time stop would not itself be immune to time stop.
For example, post-AC Sephiroth is now made out of Lifestream. Word of God is that he can use any powers found on materia (which would include Added Effect), *because he’s made out of Lifestream*. If someone made out of Lifestream has these powers simply because he’s made out of Lifestream, and someone using materia does as well, what makes you think the Lifestream itself doesn’t have these powers? After all, it’s the thing giving them to people.
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“Cloud, as ye pointed out, is a bullet deflector, moving this blade before a shot is fired, not after, so this is more akin to predicting where a shot will hit and moving his sword in between, not moving his sword faster then a bullet can travel.”
Except there are points in AC when both Kadaj and Yazoo are shooting at him as fast as they can pull the trigger, and he deflects shots from them both just fine. Unless you think Cloud can ‘aim deflect’ faster than they can pull the trigger (which would make him a bullet-timer anyways).
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“Link has to think time stop: game mechanics are ignored, Cloud has to wave his arm, Link does not, regardless of reaction time his movements are not faster then thought.”
This is just blatantly ignoring just about everything posted in the debate so far. If you’re going to troll the thread, at least give us the courtesy of trying.
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“Per-empt/sneak attack: when in use, the pre-empt increases the chance of getting the drop on an enemy, indicated by the enemy facing away as battle opens. Since Link and Cloud are both going into battle with knowledge of the other and are considered to see each other, this would be negated.”
Actually, all Link knows is that he must fight and kill Cloud. If they don’t start facing each other (which the stipulations don’t clarify), then Link won’t know where Cloud is, and Cloud’s first-strike abilities would still work.
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“Daioni has a point about equiptment”
No he doesn’t.
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“he cannot buff himself with potions, but he has to equipt anything he wants to use, including his sword, shield, boots, and armor.”
Which we’ve been saying from the start. He cannot, however, use things like masks, because they’re items he must manually ‘use’.
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“It’s effectively the one thing keeping Link in the fight right now, but it still needs to be reasoned out.”
What needs to be reasoned out about it? Even if Link somehow begins the match with it on, Cloud can start spamming Quake3 (which is AOE) everywhere until Link falls to his death. Pop in some Demi3 (with W-Magic or otherwise) for some extra fun.
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“In regards with Cloud’s Shield, if it costs so much “MP” to cast, how is Cloud able to cast more spells afterwards? I don’t know the mechanics of FF7.”
As OriginalA said, it doesn’t take all of his MP. And if Link gets his ‘potions’ (RC, Guardian, etc), then Cloud gets his (Elixirs all around!). Cloud also has a materia called Mp Absorbs which, when paired with another materia, causes any spells cast by that materia to sap mana from the target (or in the case of AOE, anyone affected) and give it to Cloud. The stronger the spell, the more mana sapped (pairing it with Knights of the Round gives you functionally unlimited mana). And, yes, it can be paired with the Master materia.
“Per-empt/sneak attack: when in use, the pre-empt increases the chance of getting the drop on an enemy, indicated by the enemy facing away as battle opens. Since Link and Cloud are both going into battle with knowledge of the other and are considered to see each other, this would be negated. Sneak attack uses game mechanics, and still requires the character to move, since thought is still faster then action, Link can still activate time stop.”
They’re going into battle with knowledge of the other, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they are facing towards each other outright.
Also, ignoring Cloud the opportunity to make the first move would be ignoring what the Materia does, and it’s reason for existence in the first place. Since the Materia is canon, regardless of whether this is gameplay mechanics or not, Cloud receives priority and performs the first action before Link is able to perform any action. This includes abilities that are “thought-activated.”
Pre-Emptive + Stop Spell
Pre-Emptive + Death
Pre-Emptive + Remove
Pre-Emptive + Any Polymorph Spell
Any of these would either give Cloud a decisive advantage, or just outright win the match for him.
*“Fusion sword, same forging techniques equal same materials, so again, prove it is made of a special material or went through a different forging process.”*
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It’s your job to prove ‘same forging techniques’ and ‘same material’.
The story itself gave no clue about those process. You are not the author, so unless you bring definite proof about your claim, nobody take them as face value.
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*“Cloud is immune to time stop, the world, and thus the life stream, is not”*
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For the time stop to affect the Life stream, it would fall on you to prove Link’s time stop is planetary in range.
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*Cloud, as ye pointed out, is a bullet deflector, moving this blade before a shot is fired, not after, so this is more akin to predicting where a shot will hit and moving his sword in between, not moving his sword faster then a bullet can travel.*
No, aim dodge does not explain how constantly deflecting shots.
Beside, at the start of VII, Cloud can pass as 1st class Soldier and by AC, far surpassed named 1st Class aside from Sephiroth.
2nd Class Soldier like Zack has been show dodging bullet being shot from below while the shooter was obscured by the train car’s roof.
@Rivelia
I feel the need tomention that Zack’s deflecting feat was calced to be about Mach 2-6 on Sephiroth vs Dresden and 120mph running or so
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Which Cloud>>>Zack and which would put Cloud ridiculously above Link in speed
“2nd Class Soldier like Zack has been show dodging bullet being shot from below while the shooter was obscured by the train car’s roof.”
while technichaly he did tha as a 2nd zack was a 1st class soldier
*while technichaly he did tha as a 2nd zack was a 1st class soldier*
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Zack at the point of performing that feat was 2nd class, so it should be attribute to 2nd class bracket.
By the time Zack got to 1st class, he was even more powerful, to the point he can fight modified 1st class like Angeal.
all he realy gained was experiance his physical capabilities didnt change much exept for the small boost you get befor you fight bahamut furry.
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“modified 1st class like Angeal”
angeal and genesis need a match ive suggested genesis vs nero(dmc) twice but it was never posted.
maybe the two of them vs hidan and kakuzu from naruto
*Cloud, as ye pointed out, is a bullet deflector, moving this blade before a shot is fired, not after, so this is more akin to predicting where a shot will hit and moving his sword in between, not moving his sword faster then a bullet can travel.*
I’d like to point out something here, a bullet-dodging feat done by Zack, who, surrounded on all sides, continuously dodged rifle fire, AND WATCHED THE BULLETS SAIL PAST HIM LIKE THEY WERE BUTTERFLIES.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdGYaFDPlks&t=5m0s
Things to note about this speed feat:
-Zack was moving his body quickly enough to continuously dodge bullet fire from all sides, causing the enemy soldiers to actually begin shooting at each other.
-Since he is genuinely surrounded on all sides, there is no way for Zack to “aim dodge” unless he has eyes in the back of his head.
-To actively watch bullets sail past you like they were butterflies shows that this speed feat is quite genuine, Zack is bullet-timing on levels that are quite impressive.
Now this is the same Zack that wasn’t able to land a scratch on Sephiroth, and instead was speedblitzed by Sephiroth.
Sephiroth speedblitzes a guy who can bullet-time like what was shown in the video.
Cloud has long since surpassed Zack’s abilities, and has defeated Sephiroth twice, putting his speed nearly on par with Sephiroth.
From the evidence presented here, Cloud is so far above Link in speed, it’s not even funny.