A match that has been asked for many times has finally hit the site.
Here we have the crafty veteran in Link, the ‘Ol hero of Hyrule going up against Cloud Strife of Final Fantasy.
For this match all powers are in play, which would *seem* to give an advantage to Link, but it doesn’t mean it would be an easy victory.
How do you think this fight would play out?
“Being an angsty brooding emo with a Lady Gaga eye for fashion is so much better?”
well having a personality and charachter development is much better than having none
Eh, at least Link didn’t have to cross dress. That would have been an awkward mission.
Don’t they both floor the Edward of the twilight universe, though?
(Yes, I mean The-series-that-must-not-be-named, exactly!)
Guys, did you not read the description for this match? Dante solos.
“cast time has nothing to do with it they dodge when the ice is forming” The time it takes for the user to actually activate the meteria and the time it takes the materias effect to manifest, so, yeah it does.
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“nothing for link to dodge when death is cast” The giant reaper appearing and trying to slice you in half says otherwise unless you can prove that nobody can see it. Also note you also need to explain why Cloud would go for the big guns on draw rather then his own tactics, as again, Cloud is facing link, not any one of us.
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“how spells are cast with a wave of an arm” Concentration followed by a wave of the arm, a very obvious pose, combined with the materia in question glowing light a flare(AC) and mako appearing around the character(CC, FF7). Again, magic is not a physically based ability, physical speed and strength have nothing to do with how fast the materia is cast or how fast it materializes, and unless you can show us where he can use materia without said concentration, standing still, pose, and gestures, then anytime he does it, he is opening himself for attack, just as Zack does in CC and just as he does in FF7, and until you show use said materia being manifesting any faster due to any contributing factors, your out of luck on this one.
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“cloud for the fpa +1″ Denied.
“The giant reaper appearing and trying to slice you in half says otherwise unless you can prove that nobody can see it. ”
retconed there is no reapper in cc
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“Concentration followed by a wave of the arm, ”
a second of concentration dosnt matter
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so yes cloud for the fpa +1
This doesn’t make sense. Isn’t cloud a bullet timer, while link on the otherhand is only an arrow timer?
“. Isn’t cloud a bullet timer, while link on the otherhand is only an arrow timer?”
yes
Now, Link has the mirror shield, so, anytime a physical or magical attack approaches him, he can use it to reflect it. Given a giant reaper trying to slice him with a scythe would promt him to either block or dodge, ther are two possibilities: He dodges(which is likely given the materias low accuracy, which is probably a representation of the materias movements or some other factor, or he blocks it with his shield, causing the spell to rebound back on Cloud. But as I said before, Cloud would not open up with his big guns, and would attempt using something in one of the elemental series first. Once he saw that Link’s shield reflect his spell, it is unlikely he would cast death if he had it equipt(also meaning he would have wasted the slots, since he cannot change them out mid battle) as it would risk it rebounding and killing him instantly. Again, this type of tactic would be typical of trained fighters to test out their opponents strengths and weaknesses before putting everything into one blow.
@Soldier’s Shadow
No, Pyramid Head stalemates!
“a second of concentration dosn’t matter” Says the one trying to say that bullet timing is the sole deciding factor of a fight. Two words: Bomb arrow. I don’t care how you argue it, Cloud cut’s that thing in half and it’s an explosion to the face. (Also take into account that the Light arrow and master sword are barrier breakers, so it is plausable that Clouds shields will be broken at some point to take advantage of this)
“retconed there is no reapper in cc” Can you please show a clip of it then?
“Don’t they both floor the Edward of the twilight universe, though?”
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Maybe, Cullen might be able to speed blitz Link though. Not really relevant to the match at hand.
Just wondering, well in any case, either can actually beat Eragon, at least, right?
“Guys, did you not read the description for this match? Dante solos.”
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Exactly, Dante solos!
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“Isn’t cloud a bullet timer, while link on the otherhand is only an arrow timer?”
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Yep, which means Link gets speedblitzed
“Isn’t cloud a bullet timer” For some aspects yes, others not, Cloud has demonstrated that he can deflect bullets with his weapon, but has thus far not demonstrated the actual bullet dodges that Zack has displayed while disarmed. (Note: Someone being better then someone else does not give them the same skills, so saying Zack can do it does not prove that Cloud can, show us a clip of Cloud doing this, then we can talk).
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Also, reaction time does not decide the course of every action in the battle, as stated before, magic materia is not a physically based set, supported by the concentration and pose characters must make when activating it and the materia weakening a characters physical stats while improving their magic when equipt. More likely, Cloud trying to speed up the process would hinder the materia rather then help it since he would no longer be concentrating on activating it and concentrating on physical movement.
” the materia weakening a characters physical stats”
for the last time this was thrown out
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This whole argument is one big mess.
@Proto-mind
You can say that again.
@Everyone else
For the record, Pyramid Head stalemates, Dante can’t solo Pyramid Head as it is!
“can actually beat Eragon” Hmmmm, just finished that series, and I would probably say neither could due to Eregon being able to rewrite magic itself so that nobody can use it without his say so, as well as being trained in bypassing shields and wards by rewording how he casts them. Plus he can literally mind rape you and draw strength from any sort of life around him, so he could kill you just by sucking out your lifeforce to refill his reserves. I don’t think either link or Cloud have any chance against that.
“for the last time this was thrown out” Doesn’t change what it represented and illistrated, that magic is not based on physical speed and strength.
@Commander Cross:
“You can say that again.”
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This whole argu. . . Oh, to hell with it.
“For the record, Pyramid Head stalemates, Dante can’t solo Pyramid Head as it is!”
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images.encyclopediadramatica.se/9/93/NOONECARES.jpg
@Daioni
Would you believe me if I said Eragon is fighting Lord Soth, but is failing to shoot Soth with an Arrow to the knee, as of late?
Lord Soth vs Eragon, if you must know!
@Proto-mind
Any idea how to reorganize this match?
I think the major advantage Cloud does have is that he is more mobile then Link, I submit to that with research from Screw attack. He is also very durable and stronger/faster at his base level then Link is(that is without any equiptment boosts). He also has Fenrir, which is a faster rider then Link on Epona(Epona does not attack, so consitutes a vehicle).
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However, Cloud lacks much variation, using his swords and magic mainly, in which his magic is very strait forward. He lacks the defense that Link has since the master sword and light arrows are barrier breakers, leaving him without his magical defense, and his deadly limit breaks can only when he has been damaged near the point of death.
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Link has a larger variety of weapons and more ways to get around opponents defenses in general. He also has excellent defenses with his number of armors that protect him from damage. He also has the great deity mast, which gives him the power of a God which can easily take down opponents like majora’s mask and fire’s can damage a person with his sword beam with his regular attack, even at close range(beam damage is equal to that of the great fairy sword, and stacks with the regular damage from the double helix sword). He also has the four sword which means Cloud has to fact four of him with identical skills and equiptment(Oh god, just thought of four fierce deities).
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Of course, without his equiptment, Link stands no chance, he is dependent on it, and even with the Gauntlets and pegasus boots, he is not considered as strong or as fast as Clould(not calculating any additional factors such as the bunny hood and the like).
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Those seem to be the biggest advantages/disadvantages they each have.
“Yep, which means Link gets speedblitzed”
Reaction speed=movement speed?
>_>
“Reaction speed=movement speed?”
I’m still waiting for them to show this ‘speedblitz’ rather then just talk about it. So far the only ‘speed blitzing” I’ve seen comes with using a limit break.
Negative: So far from the advantages and disadvantages I see, Cloud can take punishment, but as Seph shows he’s not sword proof, and Links defenses are far more potent. With the MS and LA breaking Clouds defenses, it put’s him at a definate disadvantage, and he would have to be really beat down before he coul pull out his deadliest limit breaks. In addition the four sword and great deity mask give Link a huge advantage(not to mention the giant’s mask) in terms of power houses. I think Cloud is though enough that the battle will go on for hours if not days since he is stronger and faster at a base level, especially with items involved to replenish health on both sides, but ultimatly, Link can protect himself far better and make his magic last for 3 days at a time. Eventually Cloud is going to wear down his inventory trying to stay in the game while Link plugs along with the RC in play and the life spell to replenish his health as it get’s low. By the time Cloud is at the point where every attack is a limit break, Link can activate the Magic armor and finish Cloud off as he exhaust the last of his strength.
Match to Link.
@Commander Cross:
“Any idea how to reorganize this match?”
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There really isn’t any way at this point. This battle is rather old, and the many pages complicates things. If someone wants to get into the discussion, they’d have to read through everything. I don’t think it’s worth it.
@Proto-mind
Let’s try it anyway.
Hoo boy, lots to respond to.
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“First, Cloud is a swordfighter over a magician”
How do you figure? Since you seem to be insisting on using in-game stats (such as with your ‘materia weakens people’ argument, which I’ll get to in a moment), Cloud is actually great at both physical and magical combat. He actually has high stat growth in every single one of his stats, and is a remarkably well-rounded character. He’s perfectly capable of being the group’s main caster; he actually has the second highest Magic stat curve in the game, behind only Aerith herself.
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“and while yes he can cast spells, he wouldn’t be acting as if his life depended on him getting his most powerful spell off as soon as he can”
As I have asked before, why not? His goal is to win the match by killing his opponent, and he has a spell that outright kills his opponent. Why on Earth would he screw around and use something weak when he can win the match in a second and get on with his life? He’s not Sephiroth; he doesn’t have any particular CIS preventing him from taking his opponent seriously.
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“Second Advant Children has shown, the Magic is straightforward so it can be detected”
What does this even mean? What relevance does it have?
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“(and death with quadra would take much more time then death alone as CC shows when adding on deulcast to magic)”
He’s using a completely different materia than Zack does. It’s not even the same category; Quad-Magic links to a specific materia and only affects that one (ie, it’s a Support materia), W-Magic is a command. Dualcast affects any Magic materia you have equipped; it’s an Independant materia. Can’t apply the properties of something in one category to something in another.
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“Third, casting Death right out the gate is what Zaz would do, not nesisarily what Cloud would”
Why would Cloud hold back his big, end-the-match-in-a-second spell? You have never actually addressed this, you’ve just said ‘he wouldn’t do it’. Which is totally ignoring the fact that, since he has no CIS preventing him from doing so, then, yes, he would.
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fallstar handled the rest of that.
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“Being an angsty brooding emo with a Lady Gaga eye for fashion is so much better?”
I’ve never understood why people consider Cloud an ‘angsty brooding emo’. In the original game he was sullen for maybe an hour of play (during the time when Sephiroth had Mind Raped him into thinking he was a failed experiment and a clone, which, to be honest, would be a downer for anyone). Before that he was an apathetic jerk, but after getting his shit together in the lifestream he was a more heroic character and not really angsty, brooding, or emo at all.
In AC he’s more like this, but it’s because his old Love Interest was killed in front of him, he now remembers his best friend *also* being killed right in front of him, and he snaps out of it by the end anyways.
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“Yep, which means Link gets speedblitzed”
We’ve been saying this from the start, but daioni seems intent on exploring eveyr possible way Link can try to win but still get killed before he can act anyways.
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“Reaction speed=movement speed?”
No, but Cloud doesn’t need movement speed. He reacts faster than Link, can begin casting precious fractions of a second before Link realizes the match has begun because of it, and ultimately kill Link before he can act.
That daioni seems intent on confusing the issue by deflecting onto things like “look at this item that makes Link hard to kill in this way, but offers no protection whatsoever against the spells Cloud would be opening with” without ever addressing the whole ‘Link dies before he can act” thing has not helped matters.
Zazx: When you start making up your mind about a consistent standard, we will have something to talk about. Until then, I’m going on the research others have done as opposed to yours, which change any time you need to one up someone.
CIS: Since when are tactics CIS? Again, Looking for what Cloud would do, not you.
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Quadra death-meet mirror shield, goodbye cloud. Throwing out death strait away would be CIS, because it ignores any cautionary instinct that would prevent CIS.
Speed blitz: no evidence provided that cloud can speed blitz a materia except for demands that arm movement rather then mental and magical is the sole factor in casting magic. As we see in every instance to materia use, concentration, pose, visual cues, manifestation time. Never do these take a fraction of a second to do.
“Speed blitz: no evidence provided that cloud can speed blitz a materia except for demands that arm movement ”
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Cloud’s reactions enable him to counter any and every single move link could possibly throw at him.
“Cloud’s reactions enable him to counter any and every single move link could possibly throw at him”
And yet Separoths stabs Cloud, not with a fast swipe, but practically a simple fencing thrust. Again, you are generalizing, Cloud and Link have not crossed swords, so you cannot assume one cannot counter the other, as in gamesand movies, cloud takes damage(the case of games from regular opponents). Just generalizing does not prove Link can’t counter cloud. Cloud is a bullet timer(at least when it comes to deflecting bullets. Link is an arrow timer, both require exceptional reaction time. There is no reason why link cannot react in time to counter cloud.
“And yet Separoths stabs Cloud, not with a fast swipe, but practically a simple fencing thrust. Again, you are generalizing, ”
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Link isn’t sephiroth. Sephiroth attacks cause sonic booms. Try agian.
Again, materia are not a physically based ability, Arith is considered a better Spellcasters, and she cannot cast any faster then cloud, and the spells materialize at the same rate, with plenty of time to react to, so again, being able to throw out your hand fast means nothing if you havn’t met the concentration and casting requirements(again, hand to forehead, concentrate, throw out hand, visual mako reaction, spell manifestation) the spells do not share Clouds speed. His physical ability has no effect on how fast he can cast.
I’m not talking about him casting spells. I’m referring to link not being able defend from cloud’s attacks. Link is PHYSICALLY outmatched. He’s too, slow
“Sepheroth attacks cause sonic booms” When? His fight in AC show one shockwave, not when Seph swings his sword, but when he and cloud collide, all his other attack have pulsed with mako squiggles, orange flames, and sword sparks. Agin, sensationalizing the abilities of former combatants does not prove Link cannot counter Clouds blows.
I admit that cloud at his base is stronger and faster at base, and without his equiptment Link wouldn’t stand a chance. But link has his equiptment and is capable of countering clouds strength and speed. Links defensive capability far outmatched Clouds, and can attack cloud in far more versatile way that cloud can him. Ex: Link shoots arrow, Cloud cuts it out of the air. Link shoots second arrow, Cloud cuts it out of the air, and it explodes(bomb arrow). Cloud has his swords, and his pose for magic is easy to identify. Link will quickly be able to adapt to Clouds fighting and look out for his queues. Clouds deadly limit breaks won’t be available until he is near death, so his real speed blitzers won’t show up till much later.
@daioni
We’ve been through this Cloud can do limit breaks whenever he feels like as shown in Advent Children. He could just start the battle with Omnislash and win. That bear death thing is just a gameplay mechanic.
King of games: Advent Children: Limit breaks, except after researching further, AC follows the same rules the FF7 did. Cloud’s limit break builds as he is attacked(which there is plenty of) until he unleashes an attack. His level lower level limit breaks he can use much more often, but they are no his deadly limit breaks like omnislash, require him to be closer to death to build(As supported as he used them afterthe huge epic battle with Seph. He can heal before using the actual limit, but he cannot build it at his peak. (Plus if he could have used it at any time, he wouldn’t have allowed himself to be beaten by Sephs remnants)
“When you start making up your mind about a consistent standard, we will have something to talk about.”
You keep saying this but never actually specify what you’re talking about. The few times you’ve tried, you’ve been rebuffed, and not usually by me.
This should be your first clue that I’m not the crazy fanboy in the thread.
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“I’m going on the research others have done as opposed to yours, which change any time you need to one up someone.”
When have I ever changed my stance of anything without evidence to the contrary (such as agreeing to Link’s petrification defence when you actually supplied proof of its existence, rather than bitch about us ignoring something you’d never brought up). Examples would help.
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“Since when are tactics CIS? Again, Looking for what Cloud would do, not you.”
And what makes you think Cloud won’t use his best materia? Do you have any proof at all? Because Cloud isn’t known to toy with his opponents.
And yes, tactics can be CIS.
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“Quadra death-meet mirror shield, goodbye cloud.”
A) Cloud is immune to his own Death spell.
B) To the best of my knowledge, Mirror Shield only reflects projectiles. Death is not a projectile.
C) It’s Quarda W-Magic Death. 8 casts, not 4. Makes a difference, since even under game mechanics it makes his chance of missing practically non-existent (less than 1/000 of 1%).
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“Throwing out death strait away would be CIS, because it ignores any cautionary instinct that would prevent CIS.”
And what cautionary instinct would that be? The one that says “please allow this fight to last longer than the time it takes you to cast this one spell, possibly exposing yourself to unknown dangers”? Because that’s not much of a cautionary instinct.
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“no evidence provided that cloud can speed blitz a materia except for demands that arm movement rather then mental and magical is the sole factor in casting magic.”
Come off it. The only casting time (not time it takes spells to take effect, like ice forming) for magic materia we see is an arm movement. There is no proof that there exists any mental component to materia whatsoever (especially considering a robot cat riding a stuffed moogle can use them just fine). Try again.
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“As we see in every instance to materia use, concentration, pose, visual cues, manifestation time.”
Other than Summons, where is there ever any concentration? Or pose? Other than the actual effect of the materia (eg. a giant lightning bolt) what visual cues? Manifestation time is negligible (especially on something like Stop or Death, in which there’s nothing to manifest).
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“Never do these take a fraction of a second to do.”
Strawman. Never said the whole thing would take a fraction of a second. Only mantion of ‘fractions of a second’ is in regards to Cloud beginning to cast before Link can act, due to superior reactions.
However, due to cast time being almost non-existant, Link still dies before he can do anything.
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Wow, Chuck Inglish handled the rest, and without a single mention of Dante, despite the hilariously inaccurate match description.
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“I admit that cloud at his base is stronger and faster at base, and without his equiptment Link wouldn’t stand a chance.”
How generous of you to state the obvious.
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“But link has his equiptment and is capable of countering clouds strength and speed.”
You have still yet to actually prove either of those. especially the speed bit.
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“Links defensive capability far outmatched Clouds, ”
Argument ad nauseum. It doesn’t. Cloud has absolute defences that are literally permanent (and Link’s equivalents are not) and vastly superior recovery abilities. That, combined with his natural speed and durability advantages means he’ll be almost impossible for Link to even hurt, let alone kill once for his auto-rez to kick in.
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“and can attack cloud in far more versatile way that cloud can him”
Most of the ways Link can attack Cloud are totally ineffectual. Those don’t really count.
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“Ex: Link shoots arrow, Cloud cuts it out of the air. Link shoots second arrow, Cloud cuts it out of the air, and it explodes(bomb arrow). ”
Or, you know, he just sidesteps it, considering arrows fired from modern compound bows are roughly 10 times slower than bullets, and Link’s will be significantly slower than those.
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“Cloud has his swords, and his pose for magic is easy to identify.”
His ‘pose’ is a hand extension, so yeah.
And you’re also conveniently leaving out his myriad attack items here as well. Link’s not the only one with an inventory.
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“Link will quickly be able to adapt to Clouds fighting and look out for his queues. ”
I was unaware Link could adapt to something after he’s dead.
No, seriously. Your entire argument relies on Link having time to analyze what Cloud is doing, break out some o fhis items, and bug himself with his spells and manually-activated equipment. Link will not get this chance. He’s either going to be dead or frozen in time a second or so after the match has begun.
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“Clouds deadly limit breaks won’t be available until he is near death,”
Game mechanics. In Dissidia he uses his limit breaks whenever he damn well pleases, and if you don’t include those (I personally don’t), he still uses several limits in AC wihtout getting hurt at all.
In the end, While Cloud is stronger and faster at his base Link has counters to each of Clouds abilities:
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Strength: Gauntlets, gloves and other enhancing items.
Speed: Pegasu hood, bunny hood, and other speed enhancing items.
Magic: Mirror Shield
Barriers: MS and Light arrows.
Deadly limit breaks: Magic armor and other damaging nulling equiptments.
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Add into this Links more unpredictable arsenal, four sword, fierce deity mask, and giants mask, and while Cloud has a fast reaction time, he’s not going to be able to predict what Link is going to do.
“The one that says “please allow this fight to last longer than the time it takes you to cast this one spell, possibly exposing yourself to unknown dangers”?”
You lose at paint ball alot don’t you?
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Again, you can complain about it all you like, but I’m going with the research to doesn’t say “It only works if it’s Cloud”, and ignores elemental compatability, changes magic use into a physical attribute and ignores it’s cast time, and otherwise gives Cloud abilities he has yet to display while throwing out any of Links. So yeah, gave you a second chance for fair discussion, you blew it, You want to argue the reseach, go complain to screw attack, because I’m don’t with your demands that everything applies one way to cloud and not to link.
“In Dissidia he uses his limit breaks whenever he damn well pleases”
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Which was deemed ‘not cannon’ again an inconsistancy.
We gave multiple reasons disidea is counted in this none were countered so yes disidea can be used
Of topic but my gravatar wrecks link
Isn’t dissidia sephiroth lightspeed?
@Chuck inglish
“Isn’t dissidia sephiroth lightspeed?”
First I’ve heard of it, why would he be?
The game says he has light speed movement in one of his specials imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/imag0037z.jpg/
Sounds more like a figure of speech.
Does that mean Sephiroth is blitzing Dante, now?
Dissida breaks are basically combos, and not deadly until ex mode, but let me guess, this ” entirely different set” factors in as a full bown limit break from his other games.
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Then you argued that links abilities are discounted if different in different games.
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And you wonder why I question the double standard?
@Zazax
I agree with Daioni about the whole tactics thing. Cloud would not be attemting
Sorry for the broken post, I am on my phone, I’ll finish my thought when I get home.
Sorry for the broken post, I am on my phone. I’ll finish my thought when I get home.
“In the end, While Cloud is stronger and faster at his base Link has counters to each of Clouds abilities:”
You have never, ever displayed any counter at all to Death, Stop, many of Cloud’s regular spells (Demi for example), and you have yet to prove that Link’s unreliable defenses wil protect him from things like Toad.
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“Strength: Gauntlets, gloves and other enhancing items.”
You’ve yet to prove this puts him on the same level as Cloud, unless he’s planning on lifting him up (lifting and pushing strength, while it does suggest striking strength, does not translate directly).
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“Speed: Pegasu hood, bunny hood, and other speed enhancing items.”
Again, movement speed doesn’t matter. It’s the reaction time that does.
regardless, this is still probably wrong, since fallstar mntioned something about Cloud being 200mph (still waiting on the source for that, by the way, fall), but even without that someone also has a calc that puts Cloud at Mach 26 or something like that.
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“Magic: Mirror Shield”
Again, Mirror Shield only reflects projectiles, as far as I know (what with Link having to intercept them with the shield and all that). Very few of Cloud’s spells are actually projectiles.
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“Barriers: MS and Light arrows.”
You’ve yet to prove that the MS breaks Cloud’s barriers/shields (since it only beaks certain ones in the series). What would Light Arrows do tothem?
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“Deadly limit breaks: Magic armor and other damaging nulling equiptments.”
NLF. Link’s armour can stand up to a barrage of meteorites, then?
And before you dare say this is a double standard, you’ll need to find something in Link’s arsenal stronger than anything Cloud’s defenses have been shown to work against. Good luck with that.
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“Add into this Links more unpredictable arsenal”
And this will help him how?
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“four sword”
Cloud is just as capable of fighting four Links as he is one.
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“fierce deity mask, and giants mask, ”
Unless these can be used simultaneously you’ll have to pick one or the other. And again, he won’t have time to use them.
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“You lose at paint ball alot don’t you?”
For someone who loves crying ‘false comparison’ and ‘double standard’ every time an argument he doesn’t like is made, you sure make a lot yourself.
This isn’t a match where each side is evenly matched in firepower and skill. Cloud outmatches Link in almost every way imaginable, and doesn’t have anything to lose (or any danger in) opening with his biggest attack. I mean, what’s the worst that happens? Link (somehow) reflects it back? Cloud’s immune to his own Death spell, so at worst he’s lost a second or so of the match, and has discovered something about Link.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever, anything at all in Cloud’s character that would prevent him from opening with his big guns? Because so far all you’ve said is “he wouldn’t do it”. Well, proof or GTFO, because it sounds ot me like you’re leaving out the best part of that statement; “he wouldn’t do it because if he does, it means the character I’m rooting for loses”.
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“Again, you can complain about it all you like, ”
Priceless.
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“but I’m going with the research to doesn’t say “It only works if it’s Cloud”, and ignores elemental compatability, changes magic use into a physical attribute and ignores it’s cast time, and otherwise gives Cloud abilities he has yet to display while throwing out any of Links.”
So, you’re going with your own biased and incorrect ‘research’ over what a number of others (myself and OriginalA included, but we’re not the only ones) have compiled for Cloud over dozens of matches that nobody has ever had a problem with until you came along? And you think *I’m* the arrogant fanboy.
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“So yeah, gave you a second chance for fair discussion, you blew it,”
That’s funny, because to me it looked a lot like you were throwing a tantrum like a child (what with your whole “I’m going to ignore you because I don’t like you” thing), and *I* gave *you* a second chance to prove you’re not a retarded fanboy. So far you’ve had about as much success as you seem to think I’ve had.
And regardless, you’ve never actually specified how this discussion isn’t ‘fair’. Whenever we ask you to clarify what you mean you mention one or two things, we explain our reasoning for them, and you ignore it and continue your argument ad nauseum.
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“You want to argue the reseach, go complain to screw attack, ”
You know, it’s actually a site rule that findings of another site mean nothing to the Pile. Especially since that other fight has different conditions than this one.
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“because I’m don’t with your demands that everything applies one way to cloud and not to link.”
So in other words I can expect another “I’m ignoring you because I don’t like you” tantrum?
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“Which was deemed ‘not cannon’ again an inconsistancy.”
Reading comprehension, you straw-grasping troll. At the end of that very sentence I say I don’t consider Dissidia canon.
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“Sounds more like a figure of speech.”
Why would an out-of-universe but canon description of an ability use a figure of speech?
You know what, I don’t want to have this argument right now. Go look up Sonic the Hedgehog and the debate about the canonicity of the manual for one of his early games. That’s about the same thing as here.
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“Dissida breaks are basically combos, and not deadly until ex mode,”
So then explain how Cloud is fully able to take people down with his limit breaks even when not in Ex Mode.
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“Then you argued that links abilities are discounted if different in different games.”
When have we ever argued this? The only two things I can possibly think you’re referring to here (unless you’re just making things up to try and make yourself out as a victim) is questioning whether this was everything every Link ever has had, or everything one incarnation of Link has had, since they’re all different Links. We don’t give Hal Jordan everything every Green Lantern has ever had, after all. Slightly more relevant, we don’t give Hawkman everything every reincarnation of Hawkman has ever had. But this hasn’t even been mentioned in pages.
The only other thing I can think you might be referring to was a one-off question about LoZ’s three timelines, and if we’re also including everything Link’s ever had in those three timelines, or just picking one (since in each one, the other two never happened). All fair questions, I think.
Especially if you’re arguing things like Dissidia (which is, in fact, canon to FF1 and the greater FF multiverse), FF Tactics (also canon), Kingdom Hearts (maybe, maybe not canon), and Ergheiz (probably not canon) can’t be used. Which you are. Who’s got a double standard now?
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“And you wonder why I question the double standard?”
It’s good that you question it, since it doesn’t exist. At least on our side.
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“I agree with Daioni about the whole tactics thing. Cloud would not be attemting”
I hope you guys start actually including facts and evidence in these declarations soon, rather than just sticking to opinions and speculation.
Especially since we’re not complaining about Link doing the same. You don’t see us saying “I don’t think Link will RC, Magic Armour, and Fierce Deity Mask right from the get-go”. And again, you say *we* have the double standard.
“Cloud being 200mph (still waiting on the source for that, by the way fall)”
I can’t post right now iPods dying but they’re somewhere in the first two pages of Harry Dresden vs sephiroth posted by darthgrimm
I just thought of something.
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The Master Sword is, by FF7 game mechanics, both a physical attack as well as enhanced with the holy attribute (since it is anti-evil and all that), and it is because of that Evil’s Bane ability that it does most of its magics.
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Cloud’s Shield spell not only nulls physical damage but actively heals him when elemental magic, of which Holy is considered within the FF7verse, is used against it. So… instead of dispelling his protection, attacking with the Master Sword should actually heal him. … same with the Four Sword and Light Arrows too and for the same reason.
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Hilariously, according to the same FF7 game mechanics, Deku Nuts would be among Link’s most effective weapons against Cloud while Shield is in effect.
@Zazax
I agree with Daioni about the whole tactics thing. Cloud would not be attemting to get a immediate, instant kill unless he knew he could before the match began… Meaning that, he would not use death the moment the fight began, regardless of whether or not it would work, because he wouldn’t know it would work, because he and Link never fought.
Zazx: once again, going with what screw attack identified as valid since you won’t.
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“Why would an out-of-universe but canon description of an ability use a figure of speech?”
You want to say Seph has light speed attacks, then links gauntlets can move mountains and gives him the strength of armies. You guys argued that didn’t count as giving link the strength it described, and now your arguing that cloud is faster then lights, based not only on a similar description, but again based on someone who is not cloud himself. Again, not going with your demands of what the combatants can do as you ignore the rules and apply a different standard when deciding what cloud or link ca do.
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“At least on our side” exactly, your side, where you decide what either side is allowed, and stack the deck. Again, going to an impartial source for combatant abilities rather then “your side”
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“I don’t think Link will RC, Magic Armour, and Fierce Deity Mask right from the get-go” neither do we, that kind of erasure of any type character consistency or mentality is more your style.
So what is with the high power levels lately?
“Of topic but my gravatar wrecks link”
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So does mine!
I should have asked 5 months ago, but…
where do you get an avatar?
gravatar.com
“The game says he has light speed movement in one of his specials imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/imag0037z.jpg/”
thats a regular attack not a special attack
Dissidia and Tactics aren’t canon.
That lightspeed thing sounds like a hyperbole to me
“Dissidia and Tactics aren’t canon.”
disidea is canon to the ff multivevrse and the cloud show is ff7′s cloud so he is useble in this match
Explain this FF multiverse thing, I heard it before.
“gravatar.com”
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It won’t let me log in for some reason over there.
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“Explain this FF multiverse thing, I heard it before.”
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Each Final Fantasy game is a universe, and they are all part of the final fantasy multi-verse.
Since we do we take descriptions serious on this site anyway?
“Eh, at least Link didn’t have to cross dress. That would have been an awkward mission.”
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Zelda did. I wonder, do you think she used magic to change her sex in OoT or what?
“Since we do we take descriptions serious on this site anyway?”
didnt you argue EA was planet busting due to its description
@Alpha or Omega
You have to make a new account for that site.
“Since we do we take descriptions serious on this site anyway?”
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From my experience, often. The match description sets the precedence for the match at hand.
@fallstar thief
Yeah but I have word of god and side material on my side. That’s hell of a lot more proof then in game descriptions. Then again your point stands fair enough.
@TKOG
what do you think of my gravatar?
@Captain Epic
Okay funny man with your logical jokes I see what you did there. Stop doing that it takes the fun out of things. Also the description for this match means we’re arguing the about the wrong thing and that we should talk about Dante. Who pretty much wins in about 2 seconds.
@fallstar thief
That he gets shipped with Saber a lot. He also killed himself and is less cool then Lancer(Fate/Staynight) but at the end of the day pretty bad ass and deserved better.
“Okay funny man with your logical jokes I see what you did there. Stop doing that it takes the fun out of things.”
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How did I take the “fun out of things”. I merely answered the question you proposed.
@Captain Epic
Because logic ruins everything when I’m not the one using it. Anyway it’s a joke don’t take anything I say seriously whenever I say “fun” I’m usually joking about something really stupid.
Fair enough.
“That he gets shipped with Saber a lot. He also killed himself and is less cool then Lancer(Fate/Staynight) but at the end of the day pretty bad ass and deserved better.”
technichaly he was magicaly compeled to kill himself with a comand seal the same way cu chulanin was in the unimited blade works route.(E rank luck realy sucks).
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but yeah i liked f/sn lancer better also fun fact he could also have been sumoned as either a caster or berserker(wich wouls suck since berserkers cant speak so his gea bolg would be useless)
I guess my thanks goes to StealthRanger and The King of Games
Cloud will murder Link considering he is HS+ and I still didn’t get it how she won against Kratos. -_-
“That lightspeed thing sounds like a hyperbole to me”
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it’s a description. It’s sounds nothing like a hyperbole.
Cloud or Link?
Because if it’s Cloud, then I see why.
If it’s Link, then yeah you’re right. (Take back what I said in Link vs Kratos)
I was responding to Hellboy
I like the avatar AoO.
“Cloud or Link?”
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Link is she M’I right lol
“I like the avatar AoO.”
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Thanks
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“Link is she M’I right lol”
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It’s funny, but I will have nightmares on Link’s gender…
Anyway, see you guys tomorrow.
fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/003/f/0/rule_63_link_by_morganagod-d4l5dtn.jpg
Nice, mute women are pretty great.
Captain Erik said: “Zelda did. I wonder, do you think she used magic to change her sex in OoT or what?”
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I think Sheik is biologically female, but identifies with the male gender; she’s transsexual. Understand the difference between sex and gender. Sex is what biology says you are. Gender is what culture says you are. For example: According to our sex, we can wear whatever we damn well please. According to our Gender, boys wear blue pants and girls wear pink skirts. Gender is merely the behavioural expectations that culture imparts on the two sexes.
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Sheik is a female that dresses, acts, talks, and does the work of a man. Her sex is female. Her gender is male.
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This is reinforced by several facts within the game.
1) Ruto referse to Sheik as “a man” and as “he”. This could be because either it is fact or the cross dressing and transsexual behavior convinced Ruto was a man. So this point is actually ambiguous but it is important to note it all the same.
2) Sheik’s voice is rather high pitched. This is in contradiction to the fact that A) Zelda is around 17 years old by this point and ergo so too is Sheik, and B) 17 year old males typically don’t sound like that. It is possible, but extremely unlikely for a male voice, at that age, to sound like that naturally, and if Sheik is purposefully pitching “his” voice higher than it needs to be than what is the point of disguissing yourself as a male when people are looking for a female? Out-of-universe: Sheik’s voice is factually female. The person who did Zelda’s gasps and such also voiced Sheik’s.
3) Sheik wears body wraps. Most of those wraps are around the chest. … almost as if they are trying to constrict something… like breasts.
4) Sheik’s face structure lines up with Zelda’s; this would not occure if Sheik had a masculine face (although I will admit that this is also possible to fall in line with an extremely feminine but still male body type).
5) No bulge. And before someone says “well that was the censors”… no it isn’t. Ganondorf had a bulge. Sheik does not, and Sheik’s clothes are even more form fitting.
6) Nintendo currently officially recognizes Sheik as a female character. Whether this will change or not is anyone’s guess.
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If Zelda did deliberately turn into a man to disguiess the fact that she’s female than why didn’t she:
pitch her voice lower?
make a more masculine body type?
change her face?
actually give herself a penis?
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Slightly related… Zora Link in a miniskirt:
www.zeldawiki.org/images/9/9b/Zora_Link_3D.png
Is that picture from Majora’s Mask?