Suggested by Baron Somebody
Here comes site favorite Darth Vader (Star Wars) entering The Matrix to find and kill Neo.
For this fight, Vader is “jacked” into the Matrix from the Death Star, so there’ no way Neo can kill him in the “physical” world.
Neo knows Vader is coming for him, Force powers work within the Matrix.
Will Vader get his prey?
How much of a chance is it that Vader enters the Matrix, uses the force to locate vader, then chokes him?
Is there any possibility that Vader’s abilities are heightened when he enters the Matrix?
Initial bet is with Vader if can use the force in the matrix.
My initial bet is with Vader if can use the force in the matrix.
Sorry for double post, computer screwed up.
@ LittleEpp
Did you even read the original post?
.
Seriously, people, read the original post first before commenting. It will avoid wasting comments and prevent you from looking like an idiot.
@Hermit
Hey, all I asked was if his powers were heightened while in the matrix, not if they worked at all.
@Hermit 1: What?
Considering fancy reflexes can’t stop you from being choked from a mile away I say Vader wins it.
That might not matter though. Remember Neo fought off things like Smith Assimilation, and being shot in the chest 7 times point blank in the Matrix.
I think Neo takes this easy as long as its in the matrix.
I think the getting shot seven times acted like a resurrection so that he truly bacame the ‘one’. He probably doesn’t have get out of jail free cards like that all the time.
yeah…that helps so much against choking….is there any way to prove assimilation would be more or less likely to kill than Force Choke?
Neo survived this. I’m not so sure Vader can kill him with the Force. With a lightsaber, yes, but Neo still has flying and some telekinesis.
~
Is EU allowed for this fight?
Huh, I was -just- thinking about making a Darth Vader match suggestion. Was in the process of trying to think of a good opponent for him. This satiates that urge. =) Will be interesting to see who wins.. but my money is on Vader. Force choke and all that.
Eu has to be allowed as Lucas arts makes the EU now with the clone wars tv show, so no more unnecessary eu debate. that said doesn’t The One=The Matrix? Ib to the guy who’s world their in.
Neo’s Glacial-Pace expressions bore Vader to death.
Mach 21 Neo stomps
Vader in the matrix, all of his abilities and powers would become code, which is what Neo sees the Matrix in. I don’t feel Vader will be very successful if Neo is able to see what he’s going to do, and how he’s going to do it as soon as Vader starts to. I mean, Neo was brushing off Agents like nothing, flawless victory style, and those guys use the workings of the matrix to their advantage. Vaders not going to have good working knowledge of how the matrix works, and I think that’s why Neo would win.
*facepalm*
Full-power Neo is omniscient in the Matrix (Neo can see everything that occurs within the Matrix now) and might as well be omnipresent with his ultra fast flight ignores obstacles cause Neo flight.
Unless Vader starts 100 miles away from Neo, Neo stomps.
Light saber can definitely hack thru him. If Vader cannot dies physically then you might as well just give Him the FP Award now
If Vader dies in the Matrix, he’d die in the real world too. Matrix theory 101. Also, Neo is aware if Vader in the scenario. I don’t think Vader ever gets close.
Neo needs a match against someone who is actually already digital. Like Crow’s obsession Haseo or a digimon.
“Crow’s”
Cross’ Obsession. Stupid autocomplete.
Does vader in the matrix get his hands back? Cause that makes him like 10x as powerful.
Also super speed neo wouldn’t really work on a guy who can pull up his lightsaber and block a laser shot at him from pointblank
“Does vader in the matrix get his hands back? Cause that makes him like 10x as powerful.”
-I assume you mean the rest of his body as well? I don’t think so. It would only raise his potential to a bit over twice what it is now, though.
~
“Also super speed neo wouldn’t really work on a guy who can pull up his lightsaber and block a laser shot at him from pointblank”
-It would… if it was faster than that.
~
“Neo needs a match against someone who is actually already digital.”
-Like Omnimon? I remember him being pretty dang tough from this movie my friend once made me watch, but I doubt that any digimon are fast enough to keep up with Neo if he’s wholly as fast as is being said. Maybe sheer durability and firepower could compensate.
And Vader can see into people’s minds. No matter how fast Neo’s neuro-kinetics, Vader would always know what’s coming next.
Unless Neo spins around Vader in super retardo speeds with two sub-machine guns. Than again, he has the force….than again, Neo can make clones.
Except vader uses precog to do it, Soulerous. He could also just hold Neo in the air with the force and choke him. With out guns, when I think about it, I don’t see how Neo is going to beat Vader.
Even then, Vader has blocked wookie crossbow bolts and blaster bolts with just his hands. Not to mention he has used the force to stop projectiles.
How much force can Vader apply with his telekinesis? And doesn’t Neo also command some of the latter?
The force is in theory limited only by the will of the user. Once you have mastered it you can in theory move anything as you are only limited in your perception that because something is heavy or fast or far away that it must be more difficult to manipulate.
But all of it isn’t really force power. It’s just what the matrix interprets as such. That’s the problem. Anything Vader does is just bits of 1s and 0s that Neo can see and understand.
Neo is going to have precog superior to Vader because of this. Any action, force choke, whatever is code first before it actually acts in the Matrix, and Neo will see it coming a mile away. That’s why agents couldn’t touch him. Smith was an exception because he had some if Neos code, and was a virus/ corrupted, able to swarm him with 40 guys and hope maybe 1 would land.
But Vader isn’t as fast as an agent, nor able to manipulate the Matrix to his benefit like Neo can.
Vaders out of his area here.
I remain unconvinced that Vader can crush or choke someone as durable as Neo. Also, even if Darthy can see every move coming, that doesn’t mean he can counter every one.
Neither Neo nor Smith really have particularly impressive combat speeds. Every so often they pull off a cool trick but it’s radically out of place to their usual punches, blocks, and dodges to the point of being comical when Neo does something like punch Smith through rock, who comes out of it unscathed, only to get wrecked by a punch which only launches him a few feet at best. I don’t see how throat crushing doesn’t work here, still. Neo has no defense against it.
Vader has about as much of a chance against Neo, as Anakin had against the Son on Mortis.
-
Only this time not even being the “Chosen One” will help him.
You know looking at that picture of Vater I cont help thinking, maybe Neo can answer that age old question…
-
“What does this button do?”
“You know looking at that picture of Vater I cont help thinking, maybe Neo can answer that age old question…”>You know looking at that picture of Vader I cont help thinking, maybe Neo can answer that age old question…
-
My mistake.
On a side note since you appear in the matrix as your appear in your mind, such as why neo has hair and no plugs, that Vader would appear as he did when he was anakin, perhaps even with that level of athleticism.
Neo wins he nigh invincible in the Matrix.
Neo out running an explosion(Mach 21 feat) youtu.be/We5sexP3vHU (1:02) vader isn’t even hypersonic
@Hermit
My bad, I read the description, but glazed over that part, that’s how I knew it took place in the matrix in the first place.
This is probably a stupid question, but Anakin Skywalker was technically dubbed “Darth Vader” before he was burned and got the suit, I don’t know if we’re using peak incarnation or current, but if we’re at peak that might mean something, force lightning, heightened agility, etc.
“On a side note since you appear in the matrix as your appear in your mind, such as why neo has hair and no plugs, that Vader would appear as he did when he was anakin, perhaps even with that level of athleticism.”
Why?
@epicazeroth
because vaders force ghost was Hayden christensens bitch ass making that his preferred vision of himself.
Because you appear as your minds Image of itself, so does Vader think himself as burnt shell of a man, or how he was in his prime.
I am not saying it will have a major impact on the outcome of the debate, but it is topic for discussion.
I think because in his current form he his burned , he would appear like that because 1) he doesnt know he appears as his mind sees it and 2) he probably sees himself as burned because that something he has had to deal with for awhile now.
Well just going by your first point, it doesn’t matter if you know you appear as you minds image, it’s an subconscious decision, neo upon entry the training simulator didn’t know he would appear as Heathly, non plugged form.
We’d need someone who knows a lot about the EU, but I doubt the question of “What does Vader see himself as” has never come up in it before.
@shaun true true so he may just be in his prime.
Neo is winning right?
Only state it is a possibility, it really depends as I said on vaders current mental picture of himself.
It is probably more likely he images himself as the burnt crippled shell of the man he used to be,
but I do believe somewhere in the EU that it does state he has tried to use the force to heal his injuries and restore his former form, however whenever he achieved some form of restoration it would soon degrade again, if anyone has more info on this it would be helpful, epecially to show that vaders former more physical form is still of great importance to him.
Vader went into a sort of Self-Denial phase after Mustafar. He was unwilling to ever go near Tatooine and always referred to Anakin Skywalker as being a separate, dead being. I don’t know how his self image was during the Galactic Civil War proper, I’m just going off of how he acted in “Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader” which took place subsequently after Revenge of the Sith.
Not impress on neo’s feats , so I’m going on vader because the his a Lord sith, knowledge of then, and light saber.
Maybe we could do Tron v. The Matrix
I have always wanted to see a duel between Neo and Corrupted Aurora Unit 313 from Metroid Prime 3.
-
“if anyone has more info on this it would be helpful, epecially to show that vaders former more physical form is still of great importance to him.”
-
It is, but he fully views himself in the process of becoming that form once again. His belief in Shadows of the Empire was that he would become strong enough with the Dark side to leave his suit behind and be fully functional as a man again. Several times in the book, you actually see him without the suit on, breathing on his own (though he had virtually no lungs), and even practicing fighting techniques naked without any life support. while in this form he smashed a plank of “unbreakable” metal to pieces. His will alone was keeping him alive for extended periods of time without the suit! Imagine what he could do apart from a body that constantly was hindered and scraped with unending pain. His strong mind should “suit” him very well in a world of virtual reality.
Would brainiac be a good fight?
Don’t know enough about him. However, I would be interested in seeing how strong-minded individuals such as Link and Soma Cruz would fare in a Matrix match with Neo.
Or the team from Inception working with/against Neo to pull off an extraction of some sort; that would be SWEET
Vader can also bring down huge war factories meant to test kinetic energy just by getting angry going by Shadows of the Empire /random
-
“However, I would be interested in seeing how strong-minded individuals such as Link and Soma Cruz would fare in a Matrix match with Neo.’
-
Or people like Sephiroth in the Matrix with Neo
Neo’s feats in the Matrix are far more impressive than anything Vader has done in the films. He’s faster and obviously tougher than Vader. That final punch Neo took in the air from super Smith created a shockwave that engulfed the entire damn city. Then Smith smashed him into the ground and beat him up some more. Neo was on his feet moments later.
.
Yep. I’m leaning towards Neo here.
As much as I’d like to give it to Vader, I can’t. Neo from what we’ve seen is far more agile and fast than Vader and has just done more than Vader. I don’t like it but I have to give this one to Neo.
“Eu has to be allowed as Lucas arts makes the EU now with the clone wars tv show, so no more unnecessary eu debate. that said doesn’t The One=The Matrix? Ib to the guy who’s world their in.”
-
This is facepalm worthy. It truly is. If you’re throwing shit like this around you very clearly don’t understand the canon heirarchy of the SW universe. Please, go back to playing with your facebook and iPhone.
-
“Also super speed neo wouldn’t really work on a guy who can pull up his lightsaber and block a laser shot at him from pointblank”
-
Lasers you say? You mean those sub-sonic bright flashes of light caused by particle weapons?
-
“-Like Omnimon? I remember him being pretty dang tough from this movie my friend once made me watch, but I doubt that any digimon are fast enough to keep up with Neo if he’s wholly as fast as is being said. Maybe sheer durability and firepower could compensate.”
-
In the Manga Omnimon cleaves mountains in half and his cannon vaporizes them. Meanwhile he’s keeping up with a hypersonic dragon thingy.
-
“And Vader can see into people’s minds. No matter how fast Neo’s neuro-kinetics, Vader would always know what’s coming next.”
-
He has force precog, yes. But mind-diving requires the other person be weak willed and all that other nonsense. Either way it’s already been thoroughly debated (and won) that force users CAN and WILL be overcome by a devastating enough physical opponent since there are very clear limits to force precog.
-
“On a side note since you appear in the matrix as your appear in your mind, such as why neo has hair and no plugs, that Vader would appear as he did when he was anakin, perhaps even with that level of athleticism.”
-
To be fair he’d probably have a higher level if we assume he has any kind of familiarity. We’ve already seen normal humans do blatantly super human things in the matrix.
-
“but I do believe somewhere in the EU that it does state he has tried to use the force to heal his injuries and restore his former form, however whenever he achieved some form of restoration it would soon degrade again, if anyone has more info on this it would be helpful, epecially to show that vaders former more physical form is still of great importance to him.”
-
His issue was that he was trying to use the dark side to heal himself. To do so required negative emotions and feedback to power it. So when he healed himself a little bit those negative emotions left and there was nothing he could do to prevent that. It’s kind of an issue with trying to heal using the dark side.
-
“Maybe we could do Tron v. The Matrix”
-
The search bar function is your friend. Type that in and see what you get here on Factpile.
-
Ah, CIDE, haven’t seen you here in a while, welcome back man
Highest SW canon is Lucas films yea? i distinctly remember seeing George Lucas at the Premiere of Star Wars the Clone wars, where am i fucking this Up?
@itisburgers
“Highest SW canon is Lucas films yea? i distinctly remember seeing George Lucas at the Premiere of Star Wars the Clone wars, where am i fucking this Up?”
-
Star Wars canon: Movies>TV>EU.
Lucas considers the TCW to be a part of his SW universe. It is not EU material.
“In the Manga Omnimon cleaves mountains in half and his cannon vaporizes them. Meanwhile he’s keeping up with a hypersonic dragon thingy.”
-Neat. I never read the manga, but I definitely remember Omnimon destroying mountains. His beam attack is ridiculous. Maybe he should get a match here.
~
Novelizations are canon in Star Wars, but the films still come first in regards to contradictions.
“So when he healed himself a little bit those negative emotions left and there was nothing he could do to prevent that. It’s kind of an issue with trying to heal using the dark side.”
-
Darth Sion literally held his body together using his hatred and will. Although, I don’t think he was actually trying to heal himself; however; if he did not have the dark side, he would have had to wear a suit similar to Vader’s. Or else just fall to pieces.
-
@ Everyone
-
Ok, I am a little confused as to what people are saying regarding canon here. Are we using EU in this match, or not? And if not, what canon are we restricting this match to?
TCW uses Eu material in it though, so shouldn’t that mean it is all one canon now?
George Lucas. Holocron. There’s your canon guide.
@Marcel
“Ok, I am a little confused as to what people are saying regarding canon here. Are we using EU in this match, or not? And if not, what canon are we restricting this match to?”
-
What we’re saying, is the EU is canon only were it doesn’t contradict a higher canon.
-
Which would be the movies and TV shows.
-
So yes, the old Ewok cartoon is more canon then all most all of the EU.
“What we’re saying, is the EU is canon only were it doesn’t contradict a higher canon.”
-
Uhh…so you are saying that a movie made in the 70s takes precedence over the books written before the movie? I have no problem with movies taking higher canon, BUT I do have a problem that when the books the movies were based on are taken as lower canon than the movies themselves. Can we treat the original books as Higher canon as well in this instance?
@Marcel
“Uhh…so you are saying that a movie made in the 70s takes precedence over the books written before the movie? I have no problem with movies taking higher canon, BUT I do have a problem that when the books the movies were based on are taken as lower canon than the movies themselves. Can we treat the original books as Higher canon as well in this instance?”
-
No, as we don’t set was is and isn’t canon.
-
If the OP says “lets us this for this debate” that different, but it doesn’t make it canon.
Oh, never mind…according to this, the original novelizations of the movies are treated as G-canon. So this means that Vader is a good deal faster than he is in the movies, according to The Empire Strikes Back, and so is Luke.
-
When Luke is exhausted from his training with Yoda, and is hunched over panting, Yoda randomly throws a metal bar into the air. Luke pulls out his lightsaber and cuts it in half befor it hits the ground. Yoda shakes his head and says, “In seven pieces it would be, were you a Jedi.” Luke eventually gets to this level of speed and reaction time, by the time Return of the Jedi rolls around.
“Oh, never mind…according to this, the original novelizations of the movies are treated as G-canon.”
-
Sry, that should have been, “according to Soulerous’ link”
“TCW uses Eu material in it though, so shouldn’t that mean it is all one canon now?”
-
No, it doesn’t mean that. When names are taken from the EU and used in the show or the films, that only means the names themselves are validated, and possibly some objects directly connected to names, but not parts of EU.
Lucas validated Coruscant (an EU name) in the prequels, for example, but does that mean every EU novel that uses the name Coruscant or takes place on Coruscant is now part of the Film Continuity? I think not.
look darth vader wins, nuff said.
Yes, the novels are indeed G-level canon, but George Lucas and some other official statements have said that the films take precedence over all else. Every time.
~
That means that feats from the novels, even ones greater than those displayed in the movies, are usable insofar as they do not contradict something shown.
~
If Darth Vader is too weak to lift a star destroyer in the films but can do so in a book, we must say he cannot lift a star destroyer. If he never attempts to lift a star destroyer in the movies but does so and succeeds in a novel, I see no reason why that is not canon.
“look darth vader wins, nuff said.”
-Darth Vader cannot harm Neo without using his lightsaber. He will have to immobilize Neo with Force Grip to even have a chance at defeating him. I’m not convinced he can do that, considering the power of Neo’s flight propulsion. Even then, does Neo not have telekinesis himself?
“If Darth Vader is too weak to lift a star destroyer in the films but can do so in a book, we must say he cannot lift a star destroyer. If he never attempts to lift a star destroyer in the movies but does so and succeeds in a novel, I see no reason why that is not canon.”
-
So, are you saying that since Luke never attempted the metal bar exercise in the movies, you would say is is a lot faster than shown in the movies? I’m confused…
-
“Yes, the novels are indeed G-level canon, but George Lucas and some other official statements have said that the films take precedence over all else. Every time.”
-
But why, then, would Lucas write the book, make the movie based on his book, and then state that the movie is higher canon than his original material? I’m doubly confused…
“Even then, does Neo not have telekinesis himself?”
-
Better question: Can Neo force breath back into his lungs, or breathe with his windpipe crushed? Or “breathe” without breathing? Secondly, can he recover if his mind is literally ripped apart by the force? Vader, The Emperor, and Mara Jade were able to do this (again though, book and movie novelization), and NOT just to weak-minded individuals. However, it took time for the total effects to take place (at least tens of seconds, I believe). If Neo can guard against this stuff, I don’t see Vader winning as far as mind games go…unless he himself was able to figure out the system fast enough. THAT I see as being the wild-card factor in this match.
“So, are you saying that since Luke never attempted the metal bar exercise in the movies, you would say is is a lot faster than shown in the movies? I’m confused…”
-I’m confused as well. Don’t know what you’re saying. I simply mean that feats from the novels should be allowed to supplement a character as long as they do not directly contradict film feats and verified weaknesses.
~
“Better question: Can Neo force breath back into his lungs, or breathe with his windpipe crushed?”
-Nah, that question doesn’t need to be asked. Neo’s durability is more than enough to withstand any sort of Force attack from Vader. At least from what has been presented on this site.
Every time I see a Neo Vs set in the Matrix, I have an urge to have a Perrin Aybara Vs set in Tel’aran’rhiod…. Idea!!!
-
Perrin with full Tel’aran’rhiod powers Vs Neo with full Matrix power, what do you all think?… The ones of who actually know who Perrin is anyway.
Neo wins via speed blitz
So…CAN Neo counter his mind being destroyed by the force? Doesn’t seem the movies contradict otherwise…
CAN Neo counter his mind being destroyed by the force
======
I don’t see why this is gone this far.
Seriously, the force, is just going to be code for Neo. Vader is put into the Matrix, and although he’s not disabled in his abilities, the abilities he has, his lightsaber, everything is just code in the Matrix.
===
If Vader tries to use force chokes, or whatever, it’s just going to be code. Just those green lines of computer stuff that Neo sees the Matrix in. It’ll just be another bit of code for him to manipulate so that he’s not affected by it, just like he did with the bullets in the first movie, and repulsing Smith’s absorption in the second movie. It’s not going to wreck Neo’s mind if Vader does anything, because it’s all just code to Neo. Vader will think it, Neo will see the changes in the Matrix, and just alter it so that he’s not so bothered by it.
====
The stuff about how Vader would destroy his mind or force choke him, would probably work against Morpheus or a regular Zion person, but not against a guy who just ignores bullets killing him, and can fly inside people to destroy them like a Mortal Kombat fatality by knowing that the Matrix is just a big computer game.
====
It’s like having a 2 good computer gamers, but one gets to use all of the hax and IDDQD to win if he wants to.
“Perrin with full Tel’aran’rhiod powers Vs Neo with full Matrix power, what do you all think?… The ones of who actually know who Perrin is anyway. ”
-
I already suggested that months and months back. It was never posted.
“it’s all just code to Neo.”
-
Slightly contradicted by the movies. If it was all just code to him, then he should have been God in those movies. No weapon would ever have been a threat. The only reality-warping we see him use is against the bullets. This isn’t to say that his super-fast speeds and super-high durability won’t do anything for him, it’s just that his code-sight is inconsistent at best.
@Aelfinn
“I already suggested that months and months back. It was never posted.”
-
By all means, do it again.
-
When I suggest something, I just keep doing it until it ether gets posted, or I get bored of posting it.
-
The last one I did every day for a WoT week, and at the end of that it was up.
Dafuq is this Neo wank?
-
Firstly, Omnimon would stomp the ever loving shit out of him like the pretty boy he is.
-
Secondly Mach 21 is not fast enough to blitz EU Vader at all.
“Secondly Mach 21 is not fast enough to blitz EU Vader at all.”
===
We’re not using EU vader.
I always liked Omnimon.
~
I have not seen any feats for Darth Vader’s “mind rape” abilities.
~
“Slightly contradicted by the movies. If it was all just code to him, then he should have been God in those movies.”
-Neo seems to need to concentrate at least a little to manipulate the code. Sort of like casting a spell, I suppose. There is no spoon.
“Secondly Mach 21 is not fast enough to blitz EU Vader at all.”
-
EU isn’t canon ’round here, didn’t you know? /sarcasm
“If Vader tries to use force chokes, or whatever, it’s just going to be code. Just those green lines of computer stuff that Neo sees the Matrix in. It’ll just be another bit of code for him to manipulate so that he’s not affected by it, just like he did with the bullets in the first movie, and repulsing Smith’s absorption in the second movie. It’s not going to wreck Neo’s mind if Vader does anything, because it’s all just code to Neo. Vader will think it, Neo will see the changes in the Matrix, and just alter it so that he’s not so bothered by it.”
-
Except that Vader can and has used the force on machines. So has Obi-wan. Not to mention, Anakin was one of the most brilliant technical minds in the galaxy; it wouldn’t necessarily take him long to figure out the ins and outs of the Matrix
“Except that Vader can and has used the force on machines. So has Obi-wan.”
-That’s not the argument. Anything that happens in The Matrix, every action, object and occurrence, is a string of information. Thus Neo can see it and manipulate it. I don’t know much about that, but it’s what I understand.
Isnt Neo just like raziel from legacy of kain, the guy with a choice or some thing like that?
I am not familiar with Legacy of Kain, but Neo did indeed have a choice on whether or not he would stay in the Matrix, or accept the truth. Of course it turned out to be apart of the Architects design, but still.
“Thus Neo can see it and manipulate it. I don’t know much about that, but it’s what I understand.
-
I guess what I was getting at was that Vader should be able to manipulate it in a similar way (if not nearly the same extent as Neo, for obvious reasons), due to his insane knowledge of mechanics and cyber processing, and having a force connection with said objects.
Has Vader ever been able to manipulate information processes with the Force alone?
In the Book Revenge of the Sith, Anakin did while flying Grievous’ starcruiser. Earlier in the same chapter (or the chapter before, I can’t remember), Obi-wan reversed the polarity in the servodrivers in Grievous’ hand, thus causing Grievous ‘ brain’s command to his arm to “clench” to a command to automatically unclench. As a result, the lightsaber in Grievous’ hand flew out.