Suggested by Shgon Dunstan
Instead of putting the hidden rebel base on Yavin 4, the Rebellion puts it on a new, and already inhabited planet they’ve just found.
So WoT earth having been handwaved into A Galaxy Far Far Away just before being found by the Rebellion, have only the knowledge the Rebellion has given them, but being new to the galaxy, they’ve chosen to not take any direct action.
Until the Death Star showed up in orbit…
Now all bets are off.
“Amazingly” this delays them firing exactly as long as it took them to line up a shot in the movie… Complete with the count down in the rebel base…
The main focus of the Vs is if WoT is able to ether A. protect the earth from being destroyed, or B. have enough people survive the destruction to get vengeance by destroying the Empire, not just the emperor, the Empire itself, without even so much as a remnant remaining. They don’t have to kill everyone, just anyone who clings to the idea of the Galactic Empire.
For the Galactic Empire on the other hand it’s much more normal, they’ve just got to kill all of WoT to win.
And in case it’s not clear, the scenario is not saying WOT joins the Rebellion(Though they might if the Rebellion can make the sell), in fact if the rebel base gets the earth blown-up, they likely won’t be that happy with the Rebellion ether.
For this debate the One Power =/= the Force, but all other WoT powers that seem like Force powers, are Force powers(Sniffing, Min’s viewings, parts of a wolfkins powers, etc., but Ta’veren would still be Force + everything else that makes up the Pattern).
Full provable EU feats for Star Wars(of the time period, I’m not just up and giving them god-Luke).
Bulldog is a wild card…he probably solos the entire WoT earth.
Do stormtroopers have any moralityb in this scenario, cause they’re supposed to be good shots if it weren’t for PIS or that one theory regarding the whole “faceless enemy” thing.
*morality
So, what about the rest of the Empire’s assets? The Imperial Navy? Stormtrooper Corps? What about their other superweapons like GG, Sun Crusher, or World Devastators?
I think the only hope for WoT is to evacuate all channelers with the rebelion unless they can make a huge shield to block the death star.
How Would The WoT get away from Starships?
this has got to be one of the stupidest matches i’ve seen yet. not only do fantasy land based franchises not mesh with galactic sized space fantasy franchises, but the scenario is so specific that anyone’s opinion of what could happen is legitimate(making it a what if instead of a vs), AND forced elemental compatability is being inforced taking away another aspect of an actual debating topic……….nice one Shgon Dunstan.
I’d have to see what exactly it is that WoT is capable of but if they can do anything they may be able to win.
Finally up.
Though as pictures go, I think the “al’Thor banner” went better with the Death Star then that one.
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Now where to start…
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@Smeagolicious
“Bulldog is a wild card…he probably solos the entire WoT earth.”
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I only put him in, as there’s on gas giant to stop the DS from firing as soon as it drops out of hyperspace, the dog will do on damage, and when the times up, will just vanish in a poof of smoke.
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“Do stormtroopers have any morality in this scenario, cause they’re supposed to be good shots if it weren’t for PIS or that one theory regarding the whole “faceless enemy” thing.”
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No more then they normally do, but I’m not sure how that’s going to help them.
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@Gluttonous-Behemoth
“So, what about the rest of the Empire’s assets? The Imperial Navy? Stormtrooper Corps? What about their other superweapons like GG, Sun Crusher, or World Devastators?”
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This isn’t just “WoT Vs the Death Star”, this is “Wheel of Time Vs The Galactic Empire”, so they have their other assets, but I don’t think that those super weapons are finished yet, once they are, if they are, then yeah, they have them.
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“I think the only hope for WoT is to evacuate all channelers with the rebelion unless they can make a huge shield to block the death star.”
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I’m honestly not that worried about the DS, I gave them the same delay as in the movie, so if nothing else Luke can blow it up, but more then that it’s in orbit, and traveling works at that range.
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@itisburgers
“How Would The WoT get away from Starships?”
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And that’s the question, the DS they can handle, but can they and the Rebellion defend earth from the The Imperial Navy?
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If the rebel can delay the starships enough, the channelers can make gateways on to them, and I’m not liking a stormtroopers chances against a channeler, but will it be enough to save earth, and if it is or not, how will it effect the war?
@Mike
“making it a what if instead of a vs”
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The rest of what you said I don’t give a crap about, but this…
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Yeah, it is at least halfway a “what if “, it’s not like I picked what category to put it in.
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The main thing that that makes it a Vs, is that they have to fight each other, there’s possibility of peace.
“there’s possibility of peace.”>there’s no possibility of peace.
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Weulp, if the Galactic Empire has EVERYTHING, then this is a moot discussion. The Death Star+The entire Gawdamn Imperial Navy=gone friggin planet.
“The rest of what you said I don’t give a crap about, but this…”
”
-you forced a rule upon the fight
-you made a stomp by making it a one planet franchise without even the ability to fly much less traverse space against a galaxy controlling space faring race…….THEN flipped the stomp around and gave the originally useless land based side the actual group that defeated the other side.
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“Yeah, it is at least halfway a “what if “, it’s not like I picked what category to put it in.
-you actually can, and unless you totally get wrong what you suggested, it will be posted so.
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“The main thing that that makes it a Vs, is that they have to fight each other, there’s possibility of peace.”
-or………what if the wot world was forced to fight the empire because they were about to blow up their planet, and their only saviors would be the rebels……there is no “forced” fight there, just a what if that requires them to fight or die.
@Gluttonous-Behemoth
“Weulp, if the Galactic Empire has EVERYTHING, then this is a moot discussion. The Death Star+The entire Gawdamn Imperial Navy=gone friggin planet.”
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Well, I was kind of thinking they’d respond IC, and not just have the entire Imperial Navy drop everything and attack.
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But anyway, they wouldn’t have “The Death Star+The entire Gawdamn Imperial Navy”, as the Death Star 1 not going to last that long, and Death Star 2 still has a few years till it’s done being built.
@Mike
I thought you just requests it, and they decide.
“-you forced a rule upon the fight”
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It’s called rule 1, look it up, and the main reason I made “One Power=/=the Force” is to help Force users deal with channelers, it wont help much, but at least it stops the channelers from just cutting anything the Force users try to do before they can do it.
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“-you made a stomp by making it a one planet franchise without even the ability to fly much less traverse space against a galaxy controlling space faring race…….THEN flipped the stomp around and gave the originally useless land based side the actual group that defeated the other side.”
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But if they can’t defend the earth, then as many as survive have to “destroy the Empire down to the last remnant remaining” which I don’t think is something the Rebellion did, and maybe not even something they’d be happy with.
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“-you actually can, and unless you totally get wrong what you suggested, it will be posted so.”
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Didn’t know that.
“It’s called rule 1, look it up”
I thought you just requests it, and they decide.”
-yes you can make it however you want, but my point still stands that you forced another rule upon this fight, taking away debating points and further making it a “what if”
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” the main reason I made “One Power=/=the Force” is to help Force users deal with channelers, it wont help much, but at least it stops the channelers from just cutting anything the Force users try to do before they can do it.”
-then if it was to be shown that they were compatable(and there is a good case for it) you have essentially completely changed what the match would be like and what would be each sides main advantages/disadvantages and how they would strategise.
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.”But if they can’t defend the earth, then as many as survive have to “destroy the Empire down to the last remnant remaining” which I don’t think is something the Rebellion did, and maybe not even something they’d be happy with.”
-and not something that can be shown for a fact either way ever, making it a failed stipulation in the battle scenario.
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“Didn’t know that.
-I always put “group battle”/”tag team”/”duel”/”siege” in the “subject portion of the message. systematically thinking it could also help get your match looked at and posted earlier if one of that kind hadn’t been used in a while.
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i really have no desire to argue about this match in any length, and i do think that you are completely in the right to be able to suggest something like it, i just had to voice my complaints over the specifics of it that i don’t think will make it work as an actual debate. sorry if you take it too harshly.
@Mike
, it was in large part just the antagonistic “voice” my heads developed for you.
“i really have no desire to argue about this match in any length, and i do think that you are completely in the right to be able to suggest something like it, i just had to voice my complaints over the specifics of it that i don’t think will make it work as an actual debate. sorry if you take it too harshly.”
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It’s alright
Is Eric and murder still active if so hide this match from them lol
@Mike
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Oh, I just notice that you changed you gravatar, it will be a little weird to no longer have a gun pointed at the enemies of SoT.
Malcolm Reynolds needed some rest. A bear toting chainsaws ought to do for a while.
@Mike
“Malcolm Reynolds needed some rest.”
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Every time I saw it, I thought it was John Crichton from Farscape…
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I think it was just because I’ve never seen firefly.
If you have never seen firefly(or the movie Serenity that ended the series) then you have missed out on one of the best and shortest sci-fi franchises to date.
@Mike
“If you have never seen firefly(or the movie Serenity that ended the series) then you have missed out on one of the best and shortest sci-fi franchises to date.”
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Maybe I’ll watch it on Netflix some time…
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But my internet is only sure to be fast enough to use Netflix like 1-7 am, so… Yeah.
you can also find the series for about $10 and the movie for $5 just about anywhere. the series only went for 16(?) episodes because of the stupidity of the sci-fi network airing the episodes in the wrong order against the shows wishes to try and cumulate a higher audience with more action for it’s premiere. when their own plan didn’t work and backfired they ended up cancelling the show before the first season got through. it’s pretty bad, if you look at the air dates of the episodes on the dvds compared to what order they go in and are intended to go in, it makes you want to slap people.
@Mike
“you can also find the series for about $10 and the movie for $5 just about anywhere. the series only went for 16(?) episodes because of the stupidity of the sci-fi network airing the episodes in the wrong order against the shows wishes to try and cumulate a higher audience with more action for it’s premiere.”
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I thought it was on Fox first.
I thought so also, at least that’s where I saw it, but they had the worse time slot imaginable.
Back on the fight: I’m not that knowledgeable about the SW:EU, but one thing I can think of in this, is it wouldn’t be imposable for “Mat Vs Thrawn” to happen here.
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Of course, Mat would have to get over the whole “Their ships, that go through the stars!!!” thing first.
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And just encase it’s not clear, all of WoT is allied here, that includes both the Shadow and the Finn(but I wouldn’t make to many plans that relay on the Shadow to much, as the last book is out in January, and who knows how much of a factor it will still be).
I laughed when I read that an English Bulldog was distracting the Death Star crew. HAHAH. Nice touch!
@OriginalA
, but I didn’t come up with it, that part came from ZomBninjasamurai when I was asking for ideas on ways to delay the DS firing.
“I laughed when I read that an English Bulldog was distracting the Death Star crew. HAHAH. Nice touch!”
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I agree
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The “Complete with the count down in the rebel base” was me though, and the stopping the dog from breathing fire.
ah, yes, fox, not sci-fi. but the situation is how i said. when sindication of it was recently picked up by the science channel it was aired in the right order though.
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seriously if you like sci-fi shows, this one has a great director in joss whedon( www.imdb.com/name/nm0923736/ ), great actors/actresses like nathon fillion( www.imdb.com/name/nm0277213/ ), summer glau( www.imdb.com/name/nm1132359/ ), adam baldwin( www.imdb.com/name/nm0000284/ ) and well you get the point.
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also though, firefly is what helped start their careers to where they are now(not that they didn’t have a career before), along with between the people on that cast doing voices for cartoons and video games they practically have the market cornered(supergirl/greenlantern/superman/buck, mickey and other marines from the halo series/jonah hex/airachnid and breakdown from Transformers Prime/the brown widow/steve trevor/greg saunders/wonder woman/superwoman/vixen/naobi from matrix online/psimon/green arrow/the flash/sonny from I-Robot/cheetah from batman b&b/black canary/garth from fable II. so if there was ever a fight between real life people’s corrisponding voice characters, i wouldn’t bet against the crew from firefly.
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“I thought so also, at least that’s where I saw it, but they had the worse time slot imaginable.”
-yes, they almost immediately moved it to the friday night “death” slot.
Well as “Team WoT” showing up is taking longer then I would of thought, lets try this.
) How long had the rebel base been on Yavin 4 before the battle of Yavin?
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As I’ve already said, my knowledge of SW:EU isn’t gigantic, so I few questions.
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How may jedi are still alive at the time of the battle of Yavin?
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How far along are the varies “Superweapons of DOOM” the Empire in working on?
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Who’s next in line for sith apprentice if Vader dies?
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(And one I maybe should of tried a little harder to look up before requesting this
I’m rereading “Outbound Flight” right now, and it seems to me that something like the Vagaari starships would be vary good for the use of channelers.
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And by “vary good” I mean “those poor poor Tie’s”.
Yup, I’m sure the nomads in the unknown regions that appeared in two books and try to kill or enslave everyone they meet. would be more than happy to share their technology…
@itcheyness
“Yup, I’m sure the nomads in the unknown regions that appeared in two books and try to kill or enslave everyone they meet. would be more than happy to share their technology…”
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First, “something like”
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Second, they could just take it from them.
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And finally… it’s “glass” bubbles on the hull, how hard can it be?
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WoT could even do it better if they found out how to make crystal cuendillar, which they might be able to do by studying Callandor…
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…Power-wrought Starships… Fun.
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And all it would really need, is to make the hull of plain old iron, though you’d need to try it out a few times to see how the change effects stuff like weight and the like, but it’s worth it, as you would now have a completely indestructible hull.
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Imagine, an X-wing that could take a full powered shot from the Death Star without a scratch(warning: safety of pilot not guaranteed)….
Also, a vary relevant WOG, that I actually can’t find anywhere anymore, but had luckily quoted in a Vs before, so can still find.
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“Tor Questions of the Week
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Week 19 Question: How far can a channeler Travel with the One Power? I know they can Travel anywhere on the globe, and enter Tel’aran’rhiod through a slightly different weave, but is it possible to Travel to other planets, or even planets in other galaxies?
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Robert Jordan Answers: Travel to other planets within the solar system would require a circle of fairly strong channelers, though not necessarily as many as thirteen, depending on exactly how far out they wanted to go. Travel to a planet in another solar system would require a rather large circle (of the maximum possible size) of very strong channelers, and there would a limit on how far they could go in one jump. They could planet-hop, of course. Travel to another galaxy would be beyond them even if they began on the planet in this galaxy nearest the target galaxy.”
Well… Assuming WoT is united, the Empire might be in for a bit of trouble.
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First order of business- the Death Star!
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Easiest way to deal with it would be for Rand to set up a large circle of powerful channelers (say the entourage he’s usually surrounded by in the later books) with a bunch of angreal and Callendor and use the combined power of that circle to shoot balefire at the Death Star.
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Shields would be completely useless against Balefire and a circle of that power would make a beam large enough to erase a huge chunk out of the DS. Might not finish it off with the first weave, but I’d like to see the thing operate with a giant gaping hole where its super laser used to be, and the circle wouldn’t be done after one shot.
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A better tactic however would be for WoT to invade the DS directly via gateways- Several hundred Asha’man, thousands of various female channelers, a few Forsaken and Zen Rand would pacify the station in short order, leaving WoT with a brand new Death Star of their own.
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Hell, with the Forsaken on their side they’d probably end up having a good portion of the crew switch over to their side under compulsion, giving the the necessary knowledge and expertise to pilot the thing…
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With their very own Death Star and the ability to commandeer other vessels in much the same way WoT should definitely be able to keep its planet in one piece.
“and when the times up, will just vanish in a poof of smoke.”
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See that’s not fair, how is the empire supposed to do anything when they are left bewildered by a mystical ninja bulldog.
I see the bull dog killing the empire and WoT. Lol had to say it. The issue if the laser: WoT weaves/Shields are immune to outside force so a shield should negate a blast. Or just do Galorian’s scenario. Then they find Moridin sitting on the command chair with a bulldog
i might be mistaken but didnt robert jordan suggest enough channlers clould gateway between planets
@Galorian
But I’m not sure if balefire would work like that, we don’t really know how far it goes, so though it doubtlessly can go that far, we wouldn’t know how much power would be needed for it to do so.
“Easiest way to deal with it would be for Rand to set up a large circle of powerful channelers (say the entourage he’s usually surrounded by in the later books) with a bunch of angreal and Callendor and use the combined power of that circle to shoot balefire at the Death Star.
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Shields would be completely useless against Balefire and a circle of that power would make a beam large enough to erase a huge chunk out of the DS. Might not finish it off with the first weave, but I’d like to see the thing operate with a giant gaping hole where its super laser used to be, and the circle wouldn’t be done after one shot.”
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The easiest way would to just let Luke handle it.
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“A better tactic however would be for WoT to invade the DS directly via gateways- Several hundred Asha’man, thousands of various female channelers, a few Forsaken and Zen Rand would pacify the station in short order, leaving WoT with a brand new Death Star of their own.
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Hell, with the Forsaken on their side they’d probably end up having a good portion of the crew switch over to their side under compulsion, giving the the necessary knowledge and expertise to pilot the thing…
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With their very own Death Star and the ability to commandeer other vessels in much the same way WoT should definitely be able to keep its planet in one piece.”
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….While I’d thought of that, and one of the reasons I’ve said “I’m honestly not that worried about the Death Star” is with the Death Star plans, ONE Ashaman could gate in, and blow it up in like 2-minuets.
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But I hadn’t really given much thought to them capturing it, I mean it crossed my mind, but I wasn’t sure they could do it before it fired… But with the plans….
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I really don’t like this, as it kind of kills the whole scenario…
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As post 50 is rather close, I’m just going to say that as the rebels don’t like the idea of the Death Star that’s already kill one of their worlds sticking around, tell WoT a tall tell of how the emperor has placed traps all over it, and has the self-destruct for it on his cane, and WoT decides not to take the chance.
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Sound good?
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I still have a few post to change it if need be.
@type-fallstar
“i might be mistaken but didnt robert jordan suggest enough channlers clould gateway between planets”
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No… He said it.
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In the WOG I’ve already posted.
“No… He said it.
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In the WOG I’ve already posted.”
ah missed your post.
they cant travel galaxy to galaxy but hey thats still pretty god for a people just inventing the canons and steam power
WoT be crazy lol
How Fast Does Balefire Travel? if a giant beam of Energy erupts from a primitive planet no amount of conscience will stop the empire from firing back. also Star Destroyers can Slag planets for cheaper than Deathstar, so even if Luke stops this DS it’s guard fleet will still destroy WoT earth.
@itisburgers
“How Fast Does Balefire Travel?”
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A question for the ages, but fast, and as it can be moved back and forth, if WoT can make one big enough to do real damage, and long enough to reach the DS in the first place, then they could carve it like a pumpkin.
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“if a giant beam of Energy erupts from a primitive planet no amount of conscience will stop the empire from firing back.”
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If it and reach, then their going to have bigger problems to think about then if they can fire back or not.
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“also Star Destroyers can Slag planets for cheaper than Deathstar, so even if Luke stops this DS it’s guard fleet will still destroy WoT earth.”
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…Are you saying that it will show up? As I don’t remember any “guard fleet” in the movie.
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Also, would you know the answers to my questions in post #31?
@Mike
Its the whole Galactic Empire, what’s to say they’ll just leave everything they’ve got and send one tiny piece at a time? A lot of them will be distracted by the EB, but I can’t see them all.
@Gluttonous-Behemoth
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“Its the whole Galactic Empire, what’s to say they’ll just leave everything they’ve got and send one tiny piece at a time? A lot of them will be distracted by the EB, but I can’t see them all.”
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I’m not sure why your asking Mike, and honestly I’m not sure what it is your asking…
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“what’s to say they’ll just leave everything they’ve got and send one tiny piece at a time?”
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You seem to starting with one question, and finishing with another.
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But anyway, I’m guessing the reason they wouldn’t attack with everything they’ve got, is the same one as why they didn’t with the Rebellion, the rest of their forces were busy elsewhere.
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That being said, once news gets out of the channelers, I’m sure the emperor will take more notice, but even then I doubt he would send every thing at once(Now that I said they couldn’t have the Death Star anyway, that would of likely got a response from the emperor quite quickly
” Now that I said they couldn’t have the Death Star anyway”
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Thanks for ruining Moridin, bulldog and Co. zooming around in a death star…. So Badass in my mind…. Lol can you imagine shaidar haran telling the forsaken that the fucking dog is Nae’blis?! LMFAO
the magic users from wot would definitelly not use balefire against the death star because of their cis for using a lot of balefire. just cities being erased hurt their reality so much that all magic users stopped using it during the previous era, and even if they did, the sheer mass of the deathstar would make it near impossible to destroy enough of it to not function.
@Mike
“the magic users from wot would definitelly not use balefire against the death star because of their cis for using a lot of balefire. just cities being erased hurt their reality so much that all magic users stopped using it during the previous era, and even if they did, the sheer mass of the deathstar would make it near impossible to destroy enough of it to not function.”
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The cis is debatable, and would vary from person to person anyway, but, and I honestly don’t favor the balefire plan, if they wanted to do it, they could just put a maximum sized link together, gate to the center of the DS, stretch their arms out wide, an just shoot really weak balefire from each hand wile turning around in a circle.
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If a full circle isn’t enough, then they’d like need to use Callendor… which though it would surly work, as this is a suicide mission, wouldn’t be worth it.
I’m not going to get into the specifics of it, but they can’t just choose to gate into the deathstar, there’s much more involved with figuring out where to come out at and multiple ways to figure it out.
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attacking the deathstar in any meaningful manner would also require plans of the deathstar to know where to hit, because even if they got every single channeler to start shooting balefire(which would destroy reality) it might not even be enough to disable the deathstar before reality is destroyed. deathstar = small moon, balefire used most ever and almost destroyed reality because of it = multiple cities. small moon>>>>>>>multiple cities.
Actually gating in wouldn’t be hard. You need to know your location, NOT the destination. They could very well just create the weave intending to be on say the bridge or cafeteria. Not dying would be harder lol. And the “city gone undoes reality” is not really being represented fully here. The MULTIPLE cities with THOUSANDS of people’s MANY actions being undone in rapid succession over the course of the war’s first few months caused the strain. Not saying they can, but if they theoretically balefired the ds it shouldn’t be too bad, as not a lot of actions would need to be “corrected”. Unless it already blew up the planet…. That’d be a strain lol
@Mike
“I’m not going to get into the specifics of it, but they can’t just choose to gate into the deathstar, there’s much more involved with figuring out where to come out at and multiple ways to figure it out.”
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With traveling you just need to know the place you start from, and normally a vague idea where your going, the “start from”, isn’t a problem, and as for the “where your going”, they have the Death Star plans, which is a LOT more then is needed.
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“attacking the deathstar in any meaningful manner would also require plans of the deathstar to know where to hit, because even if they got every single channeler to start shooting balefire(which would destroy reality) it might not even be enough to disable the deathstar before reality is destroyed. deathstar = small moon, balefire used most ever and almost destroyed reality because of it = multiple cities. small moon>>>>>>>multiple cities.”
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It wouldn’t take THAT many channelers, and your over estimating the whole “destroy reality” thing, yes it can do it, but A. balefire can be “dialed down” to only erasing a few milliseconds, which isn’t going to be causing all that much Pattern glitches, and B. the DS may be bigger, but there’s not as much stuff to cause the before mentioned glitches, more so if they just cut the DS itself in two, rather then target anymore people then get in the way of that.
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Using it to much is a bad thing, but the little bit needed here wont do much on it’s own.
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It’s not just size, but strength, and amount things effected that all add up to “to much”.
But really, balefire isn’t needed, even if they didn’t want to wait for Luke, ONE ashaman could just open a gateway to the death star reactor core, set a weave to explode in 10 seconds, and close the gateway.
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“Boom”.
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As I’ve said, the DS isn’t the problem.
“Actually gating in wouldn’t be hard. You need to know your location, NOT the destination. They could very well just create the weave intending to be on say the bridge or cafeteria.”
-wrong, they need to know the destination or cheat that rule by making a series of short jumps….and space won’t agree with them well if they do that. they would need to dream travel there to know it, and that’s if the deathstar would be there in the dream world since only permanent things, things that have been there a long time, and natural things(wild animals) are in the dreamworld. and that is infinitely debatable(= not provable).
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“The MULTIPLE cities with THOUSANDS of people’s MANY actions being undone in rapid succession over the course of the war’s first few months caused the strain. Not saying they can, but if they theoretically balefired the ds it shouldn’t be too bad, as not a lot of actions would need to be “corrected”.”
-millions to a billion people on the deathstar and “months” doesn’t matter when balefire only can go back a couple of hours at the very very most(Word of God). balefiring the deathstar would be the quickest way to duplicate what they did in the war and what all of wot has swore not to do, and only a few even still use balefire.
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“With traveling you just need to know the place you start from, and normally a vague idea where your going, the “start from”, isn’t a problem, and as for the “where your going”, they have the Death Star plans, which is a LOT more then is needed.”
-vague description when talking about gating into a field, not when gating into a complex where a foot or two means you are imbeded into walls/floors/anything.
-and they have the plans how? this match never said they were automatically working with the rebels so unless they attack them and compulse the rebels to get the knowledge they are going to have to go into diplomatic discussions to exchange information/help with a deathstar charging up above them.
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“It wouldn’t take THAT many channelers, and your over estimating the whole “destroy reality” thing, yes it can do it, but A. balefire can be “dialed down” to only erasing a few milliseconds, which isn’t going to be causing all that much Pattern glitches, and B. the DS may be bigger, but there’s not as much stuff to cause the before mentioned glitches, more so if they just cut the DS itself in two, rather then target anymore people then get in the way of that.”
-and can you show that dialing it down hurts reality less?
-not as much stuff? there’s close to a billion people on the original deathstar. hell, i’d argue that even the gravitaitonal effects of the deathstar being removed from time for even a short amount of time would be enough of a time glitch.
-cutting the deathstar in two would not be a simple task and again would be more balefire than has ever been used. you are arguing points that can’t be proven to be used.
-
-
“Using it to much is a bad thing, but the little bit needed here wont do much on it’s own.
-
It’s not just size, but strength, and amount things effected that all add up to “to much”.”
-it’s not a little bit here. to even damage the deathstar they would have to use more than has ever been used.
-the amount of matter is more and the people within the deathstar is much more than balefire has affected before.
to reiterate my original point of arguments for both sides in this fight being useless because all would be legitimate due to the massive amounts of variables…….wot opts to be refugees to rebels for which the rebels would most definitely help with(since that’s their thing) and take some of the fleeing rebel ships off the planet(because there would be) and spread their people throughout the galaxy never to be killed off completely, only interbreed for all time, while fighting against the empire or maybe even coming into power within it which is a win for both since the empire still stands and wot still lives.
-
-
“But really, balefire isn’t needed, even if they didn’t want to wait for Luke, ONE ashaman could just open a gateway to the death star reactor core, set a weave to explode in 10 seconds, and close the gateway.”
-without balefire the strength of the shields in the starwars universe will hold against any wot magic attack. plus they don’t have a blueprint of the deathstar, time to study it, or the knowledge to know what would destroy it(their age is only medival like).
( “Actually gating in wouldn’t be hard. You need to know your location, NOT the destination. They could very well just create the weave intending to be on say the bridge or cafeteria.”
-wrong, they need to know the destination or cheat that rule by making a series of short jumps….and space won’t agree with them well if they do that. they would need to dream travel there to know it, and that’s if the deathstar would be there in the dream world since only permanent things, things that have been there a long time, and natural things(wild animals) are in the dreamworld. and that is infinitely debatable(= not provable).)
-
Learn your fiction. You need to KNOW WHERE YOU ARE, not the destination. When Rand asked Asmodeon why that way he looked at Rand like he was stupid. It’s the way their magic works Mike. And WoG has the cap at a day, two tops for insane levels, not hours. Doesn’t matter anyways blossoms if fire Fuck up the ds better anyways
“Learn your fiction. You need to KNOW WHERE YOU ARE, not the destination. When Rand asked Asmodeon why that way he looked at Rand like he was stupid. It’s the way their magic works Mike.”
-i’ve been though thousands of posts about this in detailed discussions. descripitons are needed, you can’t just gate somewhere because you want to and no nothing about it. hence why the wot side on the wot vs sot thread went through thousands of posts trying to prove how fast they could dream scout the sot lands to be able to gate there.
-
-
“And WoG has the cap at a day, two tops for insane levels, not hours.”
-you’d have to show that. from what i remember, an interview with RJ(or it might have been BS) stated you couldn’t go back further than a few hours because you couldn’t get enough power even with angreals(san?) and circles.
-
-
“Doesn’t matter anyways blossoms if fire Fuck up the ds better anyways”
-starwars has durasteel which is much stronger than steel(i think it’s supposed to be a couple hundred) and shields that tank megaton+ levels of power. fire tornadoes do jack to that, in fact anything ever seen in wot does jack to that.
@Mike
“-wrong, they need to know the destination or cheat that rule by making a series of short jumps….and space won’t agree with them well if they do that. they would need to dream travel there to know it, and that’s if the deathstar would be there in the dream world since only permanent things, things that have been there a long time, and natural things(wild animals) are in the dreamworld. and that is infinitely debatable(= not provable).”
-
…It’s one thing when you at least know a few thing about SoT when WoT’s fighting it in a Vs, but if you know so little about WoT, and still feel a need to open your moth…
-
Then maybe you should just say nothing, and just fuck off.
“…It’s one thing when you at least know a few thing about SoT when WoT’s fighting it in a Vs, but if you know so little about WoT, and still feel a need to open your moth…
-
Then maybe you should just say nothing, and just fuck off.”
-many have said it is that way and showed it is that way throughout thousands of posts on other threads. if you have a problem with it, take it up with the majority of wot fans on this site and also take it up with the facts they posted. don’t be whinny child just because you’re too ignorant to know how much i know of wot.
Shgon you cannot argue with Mike’s INTERPRETATION and complete lack of knowledge of WoT canon. You just can’t. I’m out bro. I still think Moridin/bulldog team solos LMFAO
And Mike…. The dream scouting was to kill the leaders by seeing if they were in the camps. And yeah…. Don’t say how WoT works when you know jack shit.
@Mike
“-many have said it is that way and showed it is that way throughout thousands of posts on other threads. if you have a problem with it, take it up with the majority of wot fans on this site and also take it up with the facts they posted. don’t be whinny child just because you’re too ignorant to know how much i know of wot.”
-
I really doubt they said you need to know more then a vague idea where your going to use a gateway, but even still, if you don’t know anything about WoT from your own knowledge, then you should just let them tell us how stupid we are, rather then make yourself look like a fool.
-
Because whatever they said, traveling just needs you to know where you are to be used, this has been said a LOT in the books, as you would know if at some point in the years you’ve been talking like you knew anything about it, you actually just took the time to read it.
“Shgon you cannot argue with Mike’s INTERPRETATION and complete lack of knowledge of WoT canon. You just can’t. ”
-it’s not my interpretation at all. it’s wot supporters interpretation with facts backing it. all i am doing is relaying the information. bitch all you want, blaming the person instead of putting up an actual argument is typical of people like you.
-
-
“And Mike…. The dream scouting was to kill the leaders by seeing if they were in the camps. And yeah…. Don’t say how WoT works when you know jack shit.”
-re read the threads then buddy. you are completely 100% wrong about not having to know something about where you are going. rand’s whole invented short jump thing was to circumvent the whole problem even.
“I really doubt they said you need to know more then a vague idea where your going to use a gateway, but even still, if you don’t know anything about WoT from your own knowledge, then you should just let them tell us how stupid we are, rather then make yourself look like a fool.”
-I’m not making myself look like a fool, i’m relaying informaiton from the majority of wot fans on this site. don’t like it? too bad, not my fault or my interpretation of anything.
-
-
“Because whatever they said, traveling just needs you to know where you are to be used, this has been said a LOT in the books, as you would know if at some point in the years you’ve been talking like you knew anything about it, you actually just took the time to read it.”
-I’ve read large chunks here and there, mainly to get surrounding context to quotes posted, but i have seen enough quotes to know what i am talking about here. hell, it’s one of the main things wot needed to figure out in the wot vs sot match….how long it would take to dreamscout to know where to actually gate to in real life.
”descripitons are needed, you can’t just gate somewhere because you want to and no nothing about it. hence why the wot side on the wot vs sot thread went through thousands of posts trying to prove how fast they could dream scout the sot lands to be able to gate there”
.
The scouting had nothing to do with the gateways, it had to do with finding important areas for SoT. They are correct though Mike it is imperative that you know where you are gating from not where you are gating too. The gate trick is because as soon as you gate somewhere you instantly know it so if you gate to a place close you instantly learn the area and can go to wherever.
.
I forget the book but Grady (or whoever was with Perrin) used a gateway only knowing a direction not the place where she is at.
Grady is definitly a he.
@ptaine
-you are missing the point and you actually didn’t contradict what i said.
-
-the general direction IS the vague descripiton. but a vague description isn’t going to get them onto a structure without being in a wall or floor. I know they need to know where they are, but that rand example i gave is a perfect example of them showing they can’t just gate to a specific place without knowledge of it.
@ptaine
“I forget the book but Grady (or whoever was with Perrin) used a gateway only knowing a direction not the place where she is at.”
-
I’m not sure when your talking about, but they can do that if it’s not far, if that wasn’t it, then there is when Aviendha first did it, as I’m not sure she knew the place she started(they weren’t there long, but it might of been long enough), and she obviously didn’t know where she was going.
@Mike
“-the general direction IS the vague descripiton. but a vague description isn’t going to get them onto a structure without being in a wall or floor. I know they need to know where they are, but that rand example i gave is a perfect example of them showing they can’t just gate to a specific place without knowledge of it.”
-
They’ve done it with nothing but a map before, hell they’ve done it with nothing but “I want to go to that city I’ve heard about” before.
”-the general direction IS the vague descripiton. but a vague description isn’t going to get them onto a structure without being in a wall or floor. I know they need to know where they are, but that rand example i gave is a perfect example of them showing they can’t just gate to a specific place without knowledge of it.”
.
What are you going on about? You don’t have to know the place you’re going to, it’s that simple. The Rand example shows quite the opposite.
.
”I’m not sure when your talking about, but they can do that if it’s not far”
.
The one I’m thinking of was pretty far away. I’m still looking for it because I could be misremembering.
“They’ve done it with nothing but a map before, hell they’ve done it with nothing but “I want to go to that city I’ve heard about” before.”
-a map is FAR more of a vague description, you literally get to pick exactly where you want to go.
-the city thing i’d have to see something on, because i’d be willing to bet they had it described to them where they were going.
-
-
“What are you going on about? You don’t have to know the place you’re going to, it’s that simple. The Rand example shows quite the opposite.”
-so far anyone shown to go somewhere knew something about where they were going and or didn’t try to pinpoint a spot like they would have to do to get to the deathstar. the rand example shows him traveling long distances without having to know the destination via short traveling to know the area. you literally cannot go somewhere that you have no idea where it is. it’s like saying you can travel to planet x just because you heard it is a place. what? do you expect the universe to interpret your will and intent and make a safe journey for you? it’s either that, or you accept a perfectly reasonable and factually supported process of them being able to gate within reason from knowing generalities of the place they want to go; like “west” and wind up a predetermined distance west.
Put simply “Death Star” is enough to get on it, the plans would likely be needed to get to a particularly room, but even then they might be able to swing something simple like “control room” just with wanting to go to the… Well “control room”.
“Put simply “Death Star” is enough to get on it, the plans would likely be needed to get to a particularly room, but even then they might be able to swing something simple like “control room” just with wanting to go to the… Well “control room”.”
-no that is a specific and difficult ability to use while in the dream world. “need” traveling.
just knowing “death star” wouldn’t get them there either. maybe if they could see it or something, but the odds of that are slim because of being just over 100k wide but being many thousands of miles away and i’m guessing in a daytime sky. that’s practically impossible to spot unless you know where to look and have a telescope.
@Mike
“-no that is a specific and difficult ability to use while in the dream world. “need” traveling.”
-
…Let me put it this way, if you can tell me what I mean by “the cat/dog thing” I’ll put in the effort of actually looking up quotes.
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If not, SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT THINGS YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT.!!!
”you literally cannot go somewhere that you have no idea where it is”
.
Yes, you literally can.
.
”Robert Jordan For several people. Nynaeve could Travel after depositing Lan in Saldaea because she had “learned” that spot by Traveling to it. Remember, if someone Travels to a place, they now know the place they have Traveled to as well as if they had spent time there learning it.
.
As for Illian, I was too crude in reinforcing something I had established earlier and wanted to reinforce, i.e. that you do not need to know a spot at all to Travel from it if the place you want to travel to is only a short distance away
.
Rand’s trick is to gateway to a spot, say 50 feet away because it’s a short distance, he learns the area that way instead of having to stay there to learn it. THEN he can gateway wherever he wants. This isn’t that hard of a concept.
“…Let me put it this way, if you can tell me what I mean by “the cat/dog thing” I’ll put in the effort of actually looking up quotes.”
-female channelers get along with cats, male get along with dogs, and the other way around they don’t at all.
-not with that out of the way, “looking up quotes” is the sign of burden of proof. and i already know that “need” traveling is specific to the dreamworld.
-
-
“Rand’s trick is to gateway to a spot, say 50 feet away because it’s a short distance, he learns the area that way instead of having to stay there to learn it. THEN he can gateway wherever he wants. This isn’t that hard of a concept.”
-nothing in that quote shows what you say for a fact. even you pointing out that a 50′ travel learns the spot means she might have done something similar or even gone by how i suggested it. so far even all your examples leave out so much information that you can’t say you are right; everything is explained by my example along with occram’s razor without having to resort to depending on the universe to interpret your will and intent and safely pick a specific spot for you.
Damn Mike you fail so hard. The only thing worse is your incessant “i’m right” attitude. they by WoG can planet hop. They can’t even fucking fly. How would they know where they’re going now? And as for weaves not debating the ds.. Magic> tech. If the force can crumple durasteel so can the OP
“Damn Mike you fail so hard. The only thing worse is your incessant “i’m right” attitude. they by WoG can planet hop. They can’t even fucking fly. How would they know where they’re going now? And as for weaves not debating the ds.. Magic> tech. If the force can crumple durasteel so can the OP”
-the question to RJ was about max distance, and his answer was about the power it would take to go those distances. not that they actually could go there if they wanted.
-the force being able to crumble durasteel all depends on the person and how strong they are with it and if they can do it, then it just shows they are able to exert the right level of force to do it. wot on the other hand has not shown attacks powerful enough to do serious damage so something that strong, if at all. then when shields are put into play, wot has shown nothing that would take them down through sheer force. quit with your fallicious association fallacies of Magic = Force.
@Mike
), if no one else does, I WILL look for quotes later, I just don’t feel like it right now.
“-female channelers get along with cats, male get along with dogs, and the other way around they don’t at all.”
-
Not sure what Vs you found that in, but a deals a deal…(goes to look)…
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Oh looky, I didn’t realize that this had a RAFO.
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“(KOD Signing Report – NaClH2O)
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Q: There seen to be some time discrepancies surrounding the incident where Elayne and company Traveled to the Kin Farm. Did the gateway Aviendha opened to the countryside near the Kin Farm at the beginning of The Path of Daggers allow Elayne’s party to travel forward or backward in time?
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RJ: RAFO.”
-
(back to looking for the other thing)..
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“(East of the Sun Con – Karl-Johan Norén)
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On Skimming and Traveling he said: “In Skimming, one needs to know the target better than the starting place[37]. In Traveling, one needs to know the starting place better than the destination.”"
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Oh and found this on tied off gateways..
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“(Paris Signing Report — Jonathan B)
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I asked about why Grady didn’t tie off the gateways to move Perrin’s troops if he was too tired to keep them open. Brandon says that this was part of the instructions he had, so he didn’t want to change it (my speculation is that I think that means it was probably in the notes themselves but I don’t know that for sure). He said that it makes sense for tying off gateways to have a cost for the channeler to maintain because if it were so easy to create gateways and tie them off, it could be very breaking for the logistics of the world. If this were possible in the Age of Legends for example, why would anyone need a horse or a wagon or to develop any other kind of technology to transport anything? There could just be tied off gateways from everywhere to everywhere else.”
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And RJ on minds like ours.
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“(tarvalon.net Q&A)
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Q: If I were to open a gateway in front of me that opened behind me, and I balefired myself, what would happen?
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RJ: Young lady, you are entirely too obsessed and have far too much time. You need to get some sort of life. I suggest you go have an intense love affair. Doesn’t matter with who, be it man, woman, or German Shepherd.”
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Gateways and heartstone.
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“(COT Signing Report – Michael Martin)
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Q: What happens to a piece of heartstone if a gateway is opened across it?
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RJ: Heartstone is pushed aside, gateway remains intact. (He appeared fairly amused by this one.)”
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Well that’s the WOG I can find right now(yeah I know only ones actually on the point
“RJ: RAFO.”
-no answer
-
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“”In Skimming, one needs to know the target better than the starting place[37]. In Traveling, one needs to know the starting place better than the destination.”"
-isn’t specific to say either of our ways is right OR wrong, but does give weight to my argument in the implication of knowing the destination.
-
-the rest are off topic.
@Mike
“-no answer”
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Yes, but not a no.
-
“-the rest are off topic.”
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The rest wasn’t really for you.
@Mike
-
And though I know there’s not much point trying to reason with you, I would like to point out that we’re not saying that they could just go “take me to Richard”, if it was THAT easy, Rand would of never been able to hide from the Forsaken, they can’t even go “take me to Richard’s bedroom” with having no idea where he is.
-
But if they knew “Richard is in city x” then they wouldn’t need to know where “city x” is, they could just open a gateway right to some part of it, though WHAT part seems random.
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They can even do stuff like “take me two miles outside of city x”.
“And though I know there’s not much point trying to reason with you”
-you aren’t reasoning with me, you are trying to prove something to me and I’m pointing out another alternative to your view which makes much more sense(occam’s razor).
-
-
“we’re not saying that they could just go “take me to Richard”, if it was THAT easy, Rand would of never been able to hide from the Forsaken, they can’t even go “take me to Richard’s bedroom” with having no idea where he is.”
-……this is the logic i was saying all along……
-
-
“But if they knew “Richard is in city x” then they wouldn’t need to know where “city x” is, they could just open a gateway right to some part of it, though WHAT part seems random.”
-and then you contradict your self based on the presumption that somehow destination “a” is different from destination “b” even though they are both unknown to the traveler. you can’t have it both ways. either they can travel where ever they want by just knowing something exists, or they have to have some sort of knowledge to travel in the general vicinity or direction.
@Mike
But it’s just how it works.
“-……this is the logic i was saying all along……”
-
The main difference is that traveling/the Pattern doesn’t know what “Richard’s bedroom” means, but seems to know what “city x” means, yes this even gives Rand headaches.
-
Which is basically what Asmodean told Rand, when Rand commented on how little sense it all made.
“The main difference is that traveling/the Pattern doesn’t know what “Richard’s bedroom” means, but seems to know what “city x” means”
-this has not been shown, it’s just your interpretation for all i know, and without proof this is how it works, it’s not just your interpretation, it’s adding in your own explanation without any factual support.
-
-
“Which is basically what Asmodean told Rand, when Rand commented on how little sense it all made”
-that is also your loose interpretation. nothing specific was said about it either way.
I brought up theAsmodean thing already. The point is if I know my place location I can within reason just teleport to either a certain distance (fifty miles west) or a location I can see (a hill miles away). To get by the needing to know I gate three feet away, not bedding to know where I an AND learning the destination to then gate wherever.
-
And Mike i’m not saying that magic = force. I’m saying if one could why not the other. The OP affects things at a molecular level, so unless the materials in star wars are immune to this then they’re destroyed. Hell the True Power breaks unbreakable things (heart stone). You keep saying that the output would be negligible, and you stated that crumpling durasteel with the force was based on ability, power, and energy exerted. Well Rand fits all that. He’s strong enough to contend with nuke level destruction and can unleash such attacks repeatedly. Not like what I say will matter
@Mike
“-that is also your loose interpretation. nothing specific was said about it either way.”
-
Says with certainty the guy who says his never read the books, and proves it by how little he seems to know of it, and yet still acts like he knows everything about it, and….
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In short, you piss me off when you get like this, which is almost always.
-
When your just talking about random stuff your not to bad, but when you get into, as others call it, the “i’m right” attitude about stuff you clearly know nothing about….
Book for or five I’ll try to find it when I get home for the Asmo/Rand conversation
@PrimusxPilus
“Book for or five I’ll try to find it when I get home for the Asmo/Rand conversation”
-
I’d be grateful, I’m just not in the mood for that much tipping today.
-
But if I can find it on the internet maybe, and if nothing else I might be able to find you a page number…(Goes to look)
”-nothing in that quote shows what you say for a fact. even you pointing out that a 50′ travel learns the spot means she might have done something similar or even gone by how i suggested it.”
.
It did, it is a common fact among any that read WoT and I have been trying to find the specific mention of where it states it explicitly, but you can implicitly glean the information from what I provided. Nynaeve didn’t know where in Saldea she dropped Lan off. Furthermore it completely disproved your completely erroneous belief that Rand’s trick somehow shows what you were saying when it in fact shows the complete opposite.
.
Anyway that tidbit from the Fires of Heaven in the chapter Gateways (thanks Shgon an Primus)
.
”…Traveling required that you know your starting point very well. It seemed more logical to him that you should have to know where you were heading as well, but Asmodean seemed to think that was like asking why air was not water…”
.
Three strikes my friend, you probably should stop now.
Well I guess the passage isn’t as big as I thought, so here it is.
-
We come to Rand as he’s using a skimming gateway…
-
“Asmodean claimed there was a faster method, called Traveling, for using a gateway, but he had not been able to teach it, partly because he did not have the strenght to make a gateway while wearing Lanfear;s shield. In any case, Traveling required that you know your starting point very well. It seemed more logical to him that you should have to know where you were heading well, but Asmodean seemed to think that that was like asking why air was not water. There was a great deal that Asmodean took for granted. Anyway, Skimming was fast enough.”
Hay, this is a WoT Vs, not a Naruto one.
“I brought up theAsmodean thing already. The point is if I know my place location I can within reason just teleport to either a certain distance (fifty miles west) or a location I can see (a hill miles away). To get by the needing to know I gate three feet away, not bedding to know where I an AND learning the destination to then gate wherever.”
-I have not disputed any of this and is in fact part of my point.
-
-
“And Mike i’m not saying that magic = force. I’m saying if one could why not the other.”
-because of the limits of power that we have seen both doing…..feats. wot magic doesn’t have any feats that would bring down starwars shields with force and it has few if any that could destroy durasteel.
-
-
“The OP affects things at a molecular level, so unless the materials in star wars are immune to this then they’re destroyed.”
-this doesn’t even make sense, nor have i heard of it working that way. once a weave makes it’s effects, the effects are the real life version of it. fire = fire, lightning = lightning.
-
-
” Hell the True Power breaks unbreakable things (heart stone).”
-not through force. if you know how, say so.
-
-
“You keep saying that the output would be negligible, and you stated that crumpling durasteel with the force was based on ability, power, and energy exerted. Well Rand fits all that. He’s strong enough to contend with nuke level destruction and can unleash such attacks repeatedly. Not like what I say will matter”
-matter? sure, make sense, no.
-rand does not fit that description because that description explains something able to show it can exert that much force, rand has not shown he can tear apart something hundreds of times the strength of steel with force derived from magic. it’s as plain and simple as showing the most powerful feat of rand’s and figuring out if it can destroy durasteel. and nothing i have seen that rand can do in ways of force is even close to enough to do it.
-rand also never conteded with nuke level destruction nor dished it out. the largest thing he has ever been involved in was cleansing saidin(ar?) and the resulting explosion of miles wide and a crater had nothing to do with his power and cannot be repeated again.
-
-
“Says with certainty the guy who says his never read the books, and proves it by how little he seems to know of it, and yet still acts like he knows everything about it, and….”
-says the guy that can’t prove his point by proving i’m wrong or providing information that proves his point. even if i claimed to have absolutely no knowledge of WoT, i could still say for a fact that what you have shown is not definitive proof, and other ideas(such as the one i am saying) are just as legitimate with the information we have.
-
-
you wot guys seem to always get pissed off when things don’t go your way.
-
-
“”In short, you piss me off when you get like this, which is almost always.
-when i have a perfectly legitimate interpretation that you don’t agree with and instead of proving yourself right or prove me wrong, you just insult me? yeah i hate when i get all logical and don’t insult back too.
-
-
“It did, it is a common fact among any that read WoT and I have been trying to find the specific mention of where it states it explicitly, but you can implicitly glean the information from what I provided. Nynaeve didn’t know where in Saldea she dropped Lan off. Furthermore it completely disproved your completely erroneous belief that Rand’s trick somehow shows what you were saying when it in fact shows the complete opposite.”
-no you can’t “implicitly glean” the information from that. i have already pointed out another interpretation that can’t be shown to be wrong in that quote.
-it also didn’t discredit rand’s short jumps unless you assume you are automatically right, for which you aren’t as i have shown in that there is missing information in that quote that leaves my interpretation(which is occam’s razor also) completely legitimate.
-
-
“”…Traveling required that you know your starting point very well. It seemed more logical to him that you should have to know where you were heading as well, but Asmodean seemed to think that was like asking why air was not water…”
.
Three strikes my friend, you probably should stop now.”
-again this does not specifically state what you are saying. so much information is missing to come to your conclusion it’s ridiculous.
Tank you ptaine and shgon. Now it won’t cut into my borderlands 2 time:-)
-
Mike. I know you’re an intelligent fellow. So just stop. Debate something else. Like how the bulldog WTFPWNs everything lol
@Mike
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Dude, your “argument” at this point is “I don’t want it to be true”
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And I’m not even sure why.
Omg I give up. I’m going home to enjoy sanity with my five year old terror lol. Mike, have a good weekend. WoT side, don’t smash your heads in/have a good weekend lol
“Dude, your “argument” at this point is “I don’t want it to be true””
-no, it’s “you haven’t proven it” and “my interpretation is also backed and far more logical”.
i could care less if it did work like you guys are saying or not, but when you claim it is, and there is no definitive proof, AND it is crazy advantageous in every possible way….yes i will make you prove it or stop claiming it.
@Mike
“you haven’t proven it”
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I’ll get to the quote fest later, but know that you just vary wrong on this, as like I’ve said, it’s mentioned a lot.
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“my interpretation is also backed”
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No it’s not, but if you feel that way, then you post proof.
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“far more logical”
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….It’s magic…even Rand emits that it’s not “logical”…