Cylons Vs Zeon

Cylons Vs Zeon

Suggested by Sauroposeidon

The year is UC 0079, in the midst of the One Year War a new faction appears suddenly and with out warning. The Cylons (Battlestar Galactica) appear just after a startling Zeon Victory crushing the Earth Federation at Solomon Island, completely changing the course of the war and leading to near instantaneous Zeonic victory over the entire Earth Sphere. Can Zeon handle the newly arrived force, or will the Cylons take over?

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In this scenario, Amuro never got in to the Gundam. Zeon has all of their aces still alive. Char has not yet managed to assassinate any of the Zabi family. With the Big Zam, Zeon completely dominated the Earth Federation and they retained many of their experienced pilots. The only significant losses Zeon have suffered were during the Battle of Odessa. The Cylons have everything as depicted in the newer Battlestar Galactica series. They may use any shown tactics to try and win. Loss can result in one faction being completely life wiped, or simply forced in to indefinite retreat due to loss of resources (such as force Zeon to leave the Earth Sphere as depicted originally in Gundam). The goal is to control Earth, the moon, and the colonies (or destroy them if the faction so chooses.)

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98 Comments on "Cylons Vs Zeon"

  1. Hermit September 14, 2012 at 7:55 am -      #1

    Cool.
    Which Gundam series was this again?
    -
    On an unrelated note, has anyone seen the new Gundam Age anime?

  2. GuardianAngel1911 September 14, 2012 at 8:04 am -      #2

    Based on what little I know of both in general can’t really say for sure cause i don’t know which Gundam series this is off the top of my head, but I’m going with Zeon for the win, hard to top those Gundams if you can’t match them.

  3. itcheyness September 14, 2012 at 9:30 am -      #3

    I’m pretty sure we’re using the original Gundam series for this.

  4. Belisaurius September 14, 2012 at 9:33 am -      #4

    Cylon’s FTL drive gives them a mobility advantage but Zeon’s beam weapons give a significant firepower advantage.

    I’m not sure if the guns on the cylon raiders can pierce the armor of a Zaku but I’m pretty sure that the raw force behind a 120mm round would cripple, if not kill, a Raider.

    Minovsky Particles interfere with electromagnetic waves like radar, infrared, and in some cases visible light (MS Igloo). Long range missiles will be less reliable.

  5. jhud September 14, 2012 at 9:50 am -      #5

    mobile suits are a very dominant force on the battle field what with chars own custom gundam and all.

  6. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 11:15 am -      #6

    I notice this is under duels. Wouldn’t this classify as group combat? I’m not sure about the rules for things like that.
    -
    First thing that should be taken in to consideration is how well Basestars handle Zeon ships. Zeons tend to field small fleets of around three ships, or dispatch lone ships on specific missions. Their most common vessel of course is the Musai. It’s the most common vessel depicted so I think we all have a rough idea of how fast, maneuverable, armored, and powerful it is. For those of us familiar with the franchise anyways. How does something as missile spammy as a Basestar. I forget if Cylon Raiders are in love with the missile spam as well, though.

  7. Carmine September 14, 2012 at 3:43 pm -      #7

    @Sauro

    Didn’t the cyclon raiders in the first few episodes shoot 50 mega ton bombs at civilian ships?

    if so Cyclons stomp via spamming ridiculously over powered rockets of DOOM.

  8. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 4:11 pm -      #8

    “Didn’t the cyclon raiders in the first few episodes shoot 50 mega ton bombs at civilian ships?
    if so Cyclons stomp via spamming ridiculously over powered rockets of DOOM.”
    -
    But don’t the Gundam series normally have some kind of magic anti-nuke tech?
    -
    Hell some of them have magic anti-anti-nuke tech. :lol:

  9. Carmine September 14, 2012 at 4:16 pm -      #9

    lol! ^

  10. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 4:44 pm -      #10

    Of course, nukes are kind of the Cyclons main weapon, and without them…
    -
    I’m REALLY not seeing them win this.
    -
    On the other hand, with nukes, how the hell is Zeon supposed to stop them from just jumping in and nuking earth?
    -
    Hell as just not leaving their bases in system is a “indefinite retreat” I’m not even sure how the Cyclons can lose this.

  11. Belisaurius September 14, 2012 at 4:47 pm -      #11

    Actually, it’s a combination of treaties and minovsky particles. Both Zeon and the Cylons have nuclear weapons and the treaties don’t apply to this fight. However, minovsky particles kill sensors by fuzzing out the images. Mobile suits and beam weapons can intercept warheads before they reach their target. The cylons have not encountered minovsky particles before so their more sensitive electronics and sensors are going to suffer.

  12. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 4:48 pm -      #12

    “Hell as just not leaving their bases in system is a “indefinite retreat” I’m not even sure how the Cyclons can lose this.”>Hell as just not leaving their bases in system isn’t a “indefinite retreat” I’m not even sure how the Cyclons can lose this.
    -
    :oops:

  13. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 4:53 pm -      #13

    “Actually, it’s a combination of treaties and minovsky particles. Both Zeon and the Cylons have nuclear weapons and the treaties don’t apply to this fight. However, minovsky particles kill sensors by fuzzing out the images. Mobile suits and beam weapons can intercept warheads before they reach their target. The cylons have not encountered minovsky particles before so their more sensitive electronics and sensors are going to suffer.”
    -
    The thing is, don’t minovsky particles also kill long range communications?
    -
    Those are rather important to the Cyclons. :lol:
    -
    But if it doesn’t work on what the Cyclons use, then that’s a REALLY big advantage for them over Zeon.

  14. Hi I am a Cylon September 14, 2012 at 5:09 pm -      #14

    You know…I had just said yesterday that Battlestar Galactica needs more love.

    IN MY OPINION. Cylons will probably hack into the electronic systems of the gundam universe and render them incapable. After which they will nuke spam. If that doesn’t work, then FTL and nukespam. Using baseships accordingly.

    QUERY: Do my brothers get the use of the Guardians or is it restricted only to the baseships and The Reserve?

  15. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 5:27 pm -      #15

    No. Zeon doesn’t have anti-nuke tech. They agreed to stop nuking each other (each other being Zeon and the Federation) when roughly 50% of all human life was wiped out in less than a week of fighting, and irreparable damage was dealt to the Earth because of all the WMD’s (from nukes, to biological and chemical weapons, to throwing city sized colonies at Earth) they kept spamming at each other. There are at least two instances where Zeon nearly nuked a federation target despite this agreement.
    -
    You might be thinking of SEED, where they do have anti-nuke tech, and anti-anti-nuke tech.

  16. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 5:32 pm -      #16

    “QUERY: Do my brothers get the use of the Guardians or is it restricted only to the baseships and The Reserve?”
    -
    They get everything.
    -
    “Cylons will probably hack into the electronic systems of the gundam universe and render them incapable.”
    -
    To my knowledge they don’t use wireless systems in Gundam. The internet does not exist. This is likely due to minovsky interference. Minovsky pollution was so bad during the one year war that it was deemed a war crime to ever use minovsky particle spreading as a tactic of war ever again. Unless they have some other means on hacking. My knowledge on cylons is actually limited to casual viewing of the original series. I used the new one here because its more popular.

  17. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 5:36 pm -      #17

    @Sauroposeidon
    “No. Zeon doesn’t have anti-nuke tech. They agreed to stop nuking each other (each other being Zeon and the Federation) when roughly 50% of all human life was wiped out in less than a week of fighting, and irreparable damage was dealt to the Earth because of all the WMD’s (from nukes, to biological and chemical weapons, to throwing city sized colonies at Earth) they kept spamming at each other. There are at least two instances where Zeon nearly nuked a federation target despite this agreement.
    -
    You might be thinking of SEED, where they do have anti-nuke tech, and anti-anti-nuke tech.”
    -
    So the Cyclons just nuke-spam with raiders, while Zeon can’t really do anything to them.
    -
    Having FTL is a really big advantage for them, as like I said, them not leaving their bases in system in range of Zeon’s attacks, isn’t a “indefinite retreat”.

  18. Hi I am a Cylon September 14, 2012 at 5:37 pm -      #18

    I have an adequate amount of knowledge within the first two series and a substantial amount more within the most recent.

    IN the most recent series of battlestar galactica it is shown that cylons can manually hook themselves into computer systems by attaching a piece of wiring or other similar device thus enabling them to maneuver through electronics with ease.

  19. Hi I am a Cylon September 14, 2012 at 5:46 pm -      #19

    Well Shgon. THe cylons don’t even need a base….Every single one of their bases is mobile. Including their “Home Planet” The Reserve. The Reserve is a massive space station with FTL capabilities orbiting a black hole. Their other ships, the base ships are capable of launching Raiders, War Raiders, and Heavy Raiders. Along with firing their own, more powerful nukes, and other tactical weaponry. Cylons also don’t need to repair. All of their technology is pseudo-biological and so they can simply heal their wounded warriors (if they don’t download their dead to a new body through their ressurection ships) and continue fighting.

  20. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 5:48 pm -      #20

    “So the Cyclons just nuke-spam with raiders, while Zeon can’t really do anything to them.”
    -
    Perhaps you missed the part where all they did at first was lob nukes at each other. Zeon has nukes, and its bases are well defended against such attacks. Many bases in Gundam are constructed inside absolutely enormous asteroids dragged in from the asteroid belt, giving them similar protection to a bunker under a mountain. A Bao A Qu, Luna II, Solomon Island, they’re all enormous rock armored bases. I don’t know how many unnamed bases got destroyed during the “one week war” but the surviving bases we see during the One Year War obviously were designed with nuclear attack in mind and clearly survived any attacks launched against them. They own Jaburo at this point as well, which is heavily shielded beneath layers of rock and metal, as well as mobile weapons which were designed to be powerful enough to punch through that defense. With the minovsky interference and well defended bases, the Cylons will have little luck Nuke-spamming. Or at least they will if that is the only tactic they employ.
    -
    ” it is shown that cylons can manually hook themselves into computer systems by attaching a piece of wiring or other similar device thus enabling them to maneuver through electronics with ease.”
    -
    I think that should work, up until they run in to something nasty like that Blue Destiny stuff.

  21. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 5:52 pm -      #21

    Just to reiterate, so you get the point, Shgon.
    -
    GUNDAM.
    -http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100803110423/gundam/images/1/19/RX-78-2_Solomon_Express_G-2.jpg
    -
    HAS.
    -
    images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120620045158/gundam/images/9/96/Solomon-g3-white-devil.jpg
    -
    NUKES.
    -
    images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100727011030/gundam/images/6/60/Jupiterghost.jpg
    -
    Understand now?

  22. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 5:53 pm -      #22

    images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100803110423/gundam/images/1/19/RX-78-2_Solomon_Express_G-2.jpg
    -
    That should be the URL for the first one, messed it up, sorry.

  23. Hi I am a Cylon September 14, 2012 at 5:54 pm -      #23

    Perhaps the cylons’ greatest asset will be the skinjobs. 12 models of cylon that are built to taste, touch, feel, smell, and look human. The Cylon Command has shown itself to be excellent at infiltrating these models into human society. If there is any sort of weak link with security you can kiss you sabotaged ass goodbye.

  24. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 5:56 pm -      #24

    @Hi I am a Cylon
    “Well Shgon. THe cylons don’t even need a base….Every single one of their bases is mobile.”
    -
    I know their mobile, which is why I said “them not leaving their bases in system”.
    -
    @Sauroposeidon
    “Perhaps you missed the part where all they did at first was lob nukes at each other. ”
    -
    What your not getting is that even raiders have FTL, so they are all of the Cyclons Zeon is ever going to see.
    -
    So they can handle nukes, now they have to handle having no idea when the nukes will come, as they will get little if any warring when an attack happens.

  25. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 5:59 pm -      #25

    “Perhaps the cylons’ greatest asset will be the skinjobs. 12 models of cylon that are built to taste, touch, feel, smell, and look human. The Cylon Command has shown itself to be excellent at infiltrating these models into human society. If there is any sort of weak link with security you can kiss you sabotaged ass goodbye.”
    -
    I think this would work very well until they catch on. Then Zeon will begin paying a lot more attention to Newtypes in order to try and filter out the spies.
    -
    “So they can handle nukes, now they have to handle having no idea when the nukes will come, as they will get little if any warring when an attack happens.”
    -
    It’s Gundam. They have no idea when anyone is ever going to attack, usually, thanks to minovsky interference. I have to wonder how long that’ll work before Zeon starts reverse engineering from downed raiders. With out a real offensive to gain territory or to stop losses, the Cylons won’t be able to do more than harry their opponents before they start taking the fight back to them.

  26. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 6:02 pm -      #26

    @Sauroposeidon
    ” I have to wonder how long that’ll work before Zeon starts reverse engineering from downed raiders.”
    -
    The raiders are bio-tech, so I really doubt they’d be able to do anything of the kind.

  27. Hi I am a Cylon September 14, 2012 at 6:11 pm -      #27

    s385.photobucket.com/albums/oo293/bellaaurora_graphics/?action=view&current=bsg105_0985.jpg

    A picture of Starbuck inside a raider.

    Notice that while not all of it is biological most of it is.

  28. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 6:25 pm -      #28

    “The raiders are bio-tech, so I really doubt they’d be able to do anything of the kind.”
    -
    They have tech which can trap and hold a person’s soul. I don’t think bio-tech renders it impossible to reverse engineer. The thing they really only need to understand is the mechanism for FTL if the Cylons are going to hole up and launch only small assault parties.

  29. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 6:32 pm -      #29

    @Sauroposeidon
    -
    So basically, you made this with no real knowledge of NuBSG? :lol:
    -
    Honestly the fight seems a little… Uneven to me.
    -
    Zeon reverse engineering the FTL seems really unlikely, and sooner or later(likely sooner thanks to their “I’m here, now I’m there” FTL) the Cyclons will get lucky with a nuke at some point.

  30. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 6:53 pm -      #30

    “So basically, you made this with no real knowledge of NuBSG?”
    -
    I have a little. I knew they were cyborgs, that they have human replicas, that they have FTL and nukes, I knew they could hack but I didn’t know how, or how useful it would be. I don’t know their standard raiders weapons or how many missiles and weapons their basestars have or their numbers. I don’t know anything at all about their ground forces and if they have anything beyond large, scary robot infantry to field.
    -
    “Zeon reverse engineering the FTL seems really unlikely, and sooner or later(likely sooner thanks to their “I’m here, now I’m there” FTL) the Cyclons will get lucky with a nuke at some point.”
    -
    I don’t see why they wouldn’t reverse engineer it eventually, unless the technology is somehow totally incomprehensible to the human mind.. which I’m guessing it isn’t for obvious reasons.

  31. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 6:59 pm -      #31

    @Sauroposeidon
    “I don’t see why they wouldn’t reverse engineer it eventually, unless the technology is somehow totally incomprehensible to the human mind.. which I’m guessing it isn’t for obvious reasons.”
    -
    But as this is a Vs not a fanfic, “I think they can” isn’t enough, you basically have to show them doing anything of the kind before.
    -
    So… Have they reverse engineered a alien bio-tech FTL system before?
    -
    If not, then no they can’t.

  32. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 7:05 pm -      #32

    Not really, no. I don’t have to show that at all. We’re a smart race. Ridiculously, stupendously smart. If they get their hands on enough raiders, they’ll be able to see how the mechanisms work. That’s how reverse engineering works. Again, they have a good understanding of biology. They have machines which directly inter act not just with the mind but the soul itself. If the cylons keep THROWING FTL technology at them while hiding somewhere (which would have to be with in the Earth Sphere) and never make a decisive move sooner or later they’re going to find themselves getting hit with similar tactics, or if the Zeon can locate where ever they’re hiding they might just Colony Laser their battle group. The Cylons can’t pussy foot around things for too long just like anyone can’t in any war setting or they’re gonna get bit for it.

  33. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 7:17 pm -      #33

    @Sauroposeidon
    “Not really, no. I don’t have to show that at all. We’re a smart race. Ridiculously, stupendously smart. If they get their hands on enough raiders, they’ll be able to see how the mechanisms work. That’s how reverse engineering works. Again, they have a good understanding of biology. They have machines which directly inter act not just with the mind but the soul itself.”
    -
    Still doesn’t prove they can do it.
    -
    By your logic “The Cylons FTL, so they can make a Death Star and blow Zeon to hell” it doesn’t work like that.
    -
    And we may be “a smart race”, but give us a raider, and it would take us 500 years to reverse engineer it, if we ever did.

  34. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 7:26 pm -      #34

    “By your logic “The Cylons FTL, so they can make a Death Star and blow Zeon to hell” it doesn’t work like that.”
    -
    No. If you GAVE the Cylons a death star, they could figure out how to build a new one.
    -
    “And we may be “a smart race”, but give us a raider, and it would take us 500 years to reverse engineer it, if we ever did.”
    -
    Can you prove that? How hard would it be to understand the mechanics behind the FTL drive once we have something which does it? How hard would it be to see what’s doing what and figure out how to eventually replicate that process? Your argument holds no ground. You keep giving zeeks FTL drives, they’ll start figuring out what to do with them and how they work. You’re working on the assumption that the Zeon are ridiculously stupid. This is how things have always worked in history. We get ahold of something with better tech, we figure out how to recreate it in short order. We now have the ability to make that thing. You are operating heavily on the idea that the cylon technology is so alien and advanced that Zeon scientists would look at it and then shrug, having no idea what to do with it. Both the tactic you’ve presented and the logic behind why their tech is not reverse engineerable don’t hold up.

  35. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 7:29 pm -      #35

    @Sauroposeidon
    “Can you prove that?”
    -
    Can you prove it wouldn’t?
    -
    The answer is no, you can bullshit all day, but you can’t prove a word of it.

  36. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 7:37 pm -      #36

    “The answer is no, you can bullshit all day, but you can’t prove a word of it.”
    -
    No, the burden of proof is on you. Reverse Engineering is reliable according to history, to the point that we take measures to avoid our enemies from doing that with our own technology in today’s armed forces. Your argument is that Cylon technology IS SO ALIEN AND ADVANCED that it would be COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND even if you had the brightest minds in the world looking at it. You haven’t provided proof of this. I’ve shown gundam has bio technology. They clone, they have machines that interact directly with the brain, they have technology which interacts directly with the soul. They know how to work with the human body. Bio-Tech is not alien to them, but they don’t employ it in their machines because its cheaper and out right better to use straight up conventional metal tech because they are not living beings using cyborg bodies to harbor their minds. Has Cylon tech in BSG ever proven to be impossible to understand or replicate by the humans in BSG? Does it have a history of being too alien to grasp, or use too exotic of materials to reliably recreate? You have provided only your opinion, man. That’s it. You can’t argue from incredulity alone. You should find a new tactic, or they’re going to end up getting colony lasers through their Resurrection vessels, since they’ll need to keep those in close range to keep in contact with the raiders. That minovsky interference, no way to combat that has been shown yet.

  37. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 7:45 pm -      #37

    @Sauroposeidon
    “No, the burden of proof is on you.”
    -
    “No you” :lol: , but really your the one who brought reverse engineering up, so I do believe it’s on you.
    -
    “Reverse Engineering is reliable according to history, to the point that we take measures to avoid our enemies from doing that with our own technology in today’s armed forces.”
    -
    Iran(SP?) has one of our drones, how’s that working out for them?
    -
    You seem to have a warped idea of how effective reverse engineering is, and show me even one real world case of it working on this big of a tech jump.
    -
    We’re talking at least someone going to the moon with WW1 tech.

  38. BC September 14, 2012 at 7:57 pm -      #38

    -
    “ So they can handle nukes, now they have to handle having no idea when the nukes will come, as they will get little if any warring when an attack happens. “
    -
    Are you talking about the incredibly slow rockets that the cylons were so fond of in the first season? ( I saw the first six or so shows if the new galactica and then lost interest in the show before the end of the season and have only seen a few since when there was absolutely nothing else to watch so I do not know if they brought out anything better in the way of weapons in the later seasons). If it is those slow shipkiller nukes the gundams would have no trouble picking them off with their particle cannons well before they became a danger to the ships.
    -
    “ I don’t see why they wouldn’t reverse engineer it eventually, unless the technology is somehow totally incomprehensible to the human mind.. which I’m guessing it isn’t for obvious reasons. “
    -
    The ftl is human technology; the cylons inherited it and managed to build ships with it clandestinely while they were exiled. The episode where Starbuck salvaged the lobotomized raider to get home is one of them I actually saw, along with at least one other where she uses the thing again to sneak around. There is no evidence in the ones I saw that the ftl drive is biotech, it looked more like the raider was like the new syle daleks: a biological pizza-like life form spread across (and hooked into)the top of machines in a metal shell.
    -
    A factor in the favor of the Zeons is that the new Battlestar Galacta has a lower weapons tech than they did in the old series, the fighters actually throw metal bullets at each other instead of using energy weapons, and their reaspace drive tech seems slower than the old series as well, especially when it comes to missiles (unless of course they improve drastically over time in the new series).
    -

  39. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 8:05 pm -      #39

    @BC
    “A factor in the favor of the Zeons is that the new Battlestar Galacta has a lower weapons tech than they did in the old series, the fighters actually throw metal bullets at each other instead of using energy weapons, and their reaspace drive tech seems slower than the old series as well, especially when it comes to missiles (unless of course they improve drastically over time in the new series).”
    -
    This is really, really true. :lol:
    -
    The FTL is the only thing that gives the Cylons any real chance of winning, if it wasn’t there to put them out of the reach of Zeon, and to let them just pop in with nukes out of nowhere, they wouldn’t have much of a chance at all in this Vs. :D
    -
    Really the Old-Cylons might of been a better one to use.

  40. Belisaurius September 14, 2012 at 8:20 pm -      #40

    Reverse engineering isn’t as hard as you think. You don’t have to understand how it works, only figure out how it’s built and reproduce it. After that it’s just a matter of plugging in numbers until you know how to aim it.

    Also, Zeon has time. Cylon attacks are going to be close range affairs since minovsky particles are killing accuracy and they don’t have a defense against beam weapons.

    As mobile as the Cylons are, they lack any ability to hold territory from Zeon forces. A Magella attack tank would laugh at a squad of centurions. A basestar has never shown nor is likely to have the heavy close in weapons needed to combat mobile suits under minovsky particle jamming. The cylon’s only defense would be scorched earth policy of nuking their own bases. This works if they have lots of territory to run to but the cylons are the aggressors.

    Finally, remember that this is Zeon after the one year war. They’ve got Big Zams. They’ve got Gelgoogs. They have the newtype corps and cyber newtypes. They have the latest in reactor and beam weapon technology and all the resources of the earth and colonies to play with.

  41. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 9:00 pm -      #41

    “You seem to have a warped idea of how effective reverse engineering is, and show me even one real world case of it working on this big of a tech jump.”
    -
    Ok, let’s play your game.
    -

    Tupolev Tu-4: Three American B-29 bombers on missions over Japan were forced to land in the USSR. The Soviets, who did not have a similar strategic bomber, decided to copy the B-29. Within a few years, they had developed the Tu-4, a near-perfect copy.
    -
    V-2 rocket: Technical documents for the V2 and related technologies were captured by the Western Allies at the end of the war. Soviet and captured German engineers had to reproduce technical documents and plans, working from captured hardware, in order to make their clone of the rocket, the R-1, which began the postwar Soviet rocket program that led to the R-7 and the beginning of the space race.
    -
    K-13/R-3S missile (NATO reporting name AA-2 Atoll), a Soviet reverse-engineered copy of the AIM-9 Sidewinder, was made possible after a Taiwanese AIM-9B hit a Chinese MiG-17 without exploding. The missile became lodged within the airframe, and the pilot returned to base with what Russian scientists would describe as a university course in missile development.
    -
    BGM-71 TOW Missile: In May 1975, negotiations between Iran and Hughes Missile Systems on co-production of the TOW and Maverick missiles stalled over disagreements in the pricing structure, the subsequent 1979 revolution ending all plans for such co-production. Iran was later successful in reverse-engineering the missile and are currently producing their own copy: the Toophan.
    -
    Thank you wikipedia. You seem to be misunderstanding how big of a tech leap this is. They understand things such as the basics of genetics. The very proteins that function as the building blocks of life. The grasp biology and how to work with it. You haven’t shown us why it’d be such a big leap that we wouldn’t be able to grasp it. And if you can’t do that, why shouldn’t the Zeon be able to grasp it?
    -
    I’m not playing by your arbitrarily set idea of how much of a leap this is, because you haven’t shown me WHY its such a big leap.
    -
    “The FTL is the only thing that gives the Cylons any real chance of winning, if it wasn’t there to put them out of the reach of Zeon, and to let them just pop in with nukes out of nowhere, they wouldn’t have much of a chance at all in this Vs.”
    -
    No one has really compared how many Basestars they have, and how well they’d confront opponents such as Musais. Zeon tends to field them in small fleets of only three, and each one can field 3 Zakus or 2 Rick Doms (or Gelgoogs). If a Basestar encountered a Zeon battle group, how well would they fair? It seems people just assume the Zakus would steam roll everything.

  42. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 9:14 pm -      #42

    @Sauroposeidon
    “No one has really compared how many Basestars they have”
    -
    The rest I think I’ll calm down, sleep on, and get back to you later, but on this… It’s hard to say, but if I remember right, there was at most something like 12 shown in the show….
    -
    I’m not seeing them doing all that well against Zeon in open war.
    -
    Though their main colony ship is rather big…. So there’s that… For what that’s worth…

  43. Sauroposeidon September 14, 2012 at 9:32 pm -      #43

    “The rest I think I’ll calm down, sleep on, and get back to you later, but on this… It’s hard to say, but if I remember right, there was at most something like 12 shown in the show….”
    -
    Zeon has something like just under 100 ships total, including the light cruiser musais up to the battle carrier dolos class vessels. They may have as many as a dozen or so federation cruisers left, and probably one battle ship, as the federation most likely surrendered before the loss of their final Magella-class.. but their vessels are slower and not as well armed as the equivalent Zeon ships which tend to be dedicated fire support instead of being meant to brawl in classic battle cruiser fashion.
    -
    So, let’s assume 12 or 13 Basestars, with how many support craft? A couple hundred each? They have far more small craft, but it seems like they don’t match with ships, although their ships are far more durable, and may be able to put out more hurt.

  44. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 9:39 pm -      #44

    And remember, Battlestars can take a pounding(at least 2 or 3 of the 50mt nukes), but Basestars…. Can’t, not at all.
    -
    Battlestars are carriers/warships, Basestars are carriers.
    -
    But like I said, that colony ship was HUGE. :D (I look for a link to site I used to know…)

  45. Shgon Dunstan September 14, 2012 at 9:50 pm -      #45

    “(I look for a link to site I used to know…)”
    -
    First, that should be “I’ll look”
    -
    And… Here it is. :D
    -
    www.merzo.net/index.html
    -
    But though I remembered it being there, I cant seem to find it now… :(

  46. jhud September 15, 2012 at 9:23 am -      #46

    mea zeon would still be a big match for the cylons

  47. Sauroposeidon September 15, 2012 at 1:10 pm -      #47

    Because its worth asking, is there any indication that there’s more basestars than we see in the show?

  48. Shgon Dunstan September 15, 2012 at 1:16 pm -      #48

    @Sauroposeidon
    “Because its worth asking, is there any indication that there’s more basestars than we see in the show?”
    -
    There’s likely at least a few more, but the BEST part is that they barely even seem to know how there tech works, so their unlikely to be able to make more.
    -
    They don’t seem to have this problem with raiders, but they might just have an automated factory that puts them out for all we know.

  49. Sauroposeidon September 15, 2012 at 1:37 pm -      #49

    It doesn’t make sense that they could build so many and then suddenly not know how to build more.
    -
    I am under the impression that they have ships specifically designed to build new bodies for the retrieved minds of their fallen warriors, including their raiders. These ships must be in range to receive the transmitted signal sent back to them to keep said mind, however. The fact that these ships must be kept very close every attack implies they’d be heavily guarded, and there’d be few if any light skirmishes due to the high gamble nature of every single battle. The Zeons consider the loss of even one mobile suit an incredible loss, even though they have something like just over 1000 I think. So if the Raiders are good enough to be a threat to a trio of Zakus and a lone Musai, Zeon may begin forming larger battle groups as well. It was not uncommon mid war for them to dispatch single ships instead of the trio battle groups we tend to see. I suspect that’ll stop happening once these special operations units start getting ganked every time they run in to a base star that’s spitting out hundreds of raiders.

  50. Shgon Dunstan September 15, 2012 at 2:47 pm -      #50

    @Sauroposeidon
    “It doesn’t make sense that they could build so many and then suddenly not know how to build more.”
    -
    That’s just it, “they” didn’t.
    -
    The “final five”(the Cylons from “earth”) did, then One killed them, put them in new bodies, and hid them on the colonies, so they can watch their beloved humans die. He then wiped them from the memory of the other human-forms.
    -
    Basically the the human-form Cylon are the children of the five(One being the REALLY bratty one), and though not completely without knowledge of their tech, they don’t know that much of how to make it.

  51. Shgon Dunstan September 15, 2012 at 3:09 pm -      #51

    But it’s “funny”( :roll: ) how the show wouldn’t stop talking about “the children coming back to pass judgement on their parents” only for us to find out that their not even really the Cylons from the first war.
    -
    Those would be the Centurions that they themselves are enslaving.

  52. BC September 15, 2012 at 4:06 pm -      #52

    “ But it’s “funny”( ) how the show wouldn’t stop talking about “the children coming back to pass judgement on their parents” only for us to find out that their not even really the Cylons from the first war.
    -
    Those would be the Centurions that they themselves are enslaving. “
    -
    That is just typical Abrams nonsense. So far every series he has done has devolved into twisty over convoluted self-contradictory plotlines. It is like he takes something and tries so hard to make it complex and hard to figure out that he loses track of what he is doing and ends up with nothing but a snarled mess that even he cannot unravel. Add to that his utter lack of comprehension of anything military (especially chain of command and military etiquette) and you get new Battlestar Galactica or Star Trek 2009. Really, do not expect anything he is in charge of to make any sense.

  53. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2012 at 12:22 pm -      #53

    @BC
    “That is just typical Abrams nonsense. So far every series he has done has devolved into twisty over convoluted self-contradictory plotlines. It is like he takes something and tries so hard to make it complex and hard to figure out that he loses track of what he is doing and ends up with nothing but a snarled mess that even he cannot unravel. Add to that his utter lack of comprehension of anything military (especially chain of command and military etiquette) and you get new Battlestar Galactica or Star Trek 2009. Really, do not expect anything he is in charge of to make any sense.”
    -
    I actually liked Star Trek 2009.
    -
    I liked NuBSG to, up until the last episode… That kind of kill my all of interest in the show, save as maybe a setting for a crossover fanfic(“America in space” could be useful if you needed to crossover two universe that were incompatible, just change a few names around, and presto :D ).

  54. BC September 16, 2012 at 1:55 pm -      #54

    ” I actually liked Star Trek 2009. ”
    -
    It was not bad as far as a generic space action flick went, and he did use more of the fannon lore and ‘in jokes’ than previous live action trek producers did which was kind of fun to watch on screen. On the other hand the teeth gnashing, bodice ripping melodrama and Mr Cool Cult posturing alone made it a spoof of Star Trek rather than real Star Trek. There are web sites dedicated to the plot problems and since this is really off topic I will not go into that here except to say that it was totally unbelievable in the context of Star Trek despite the time branch stuff trying to tie it all together. As a spoof though I have to agree that it was a good spoof, kind of Kirk goes to Top Gun.
    -
    ” I liked NuBSG to, up until the last episode… That kind of kill my all of interest in the show, save as maybe a setting for a crossover fanfic(“America in space” could be useful if you needed to crossover two universe that were incompatible, just change a few names around, and presto :D ). ”
    -
    I never saw the last NuBSG though I heard it featured his usual causal paradox stuff or something similar having to do with Earth.
    -
    I really liked the first half season or so and then lost interest. To me it looked like he completely ran out of BSG ideas and all that was left was borrowed bits from Dallas and the worst parts of the old V series stuffed into the NuBSG setting. I half expected Boomers baby to grow up in an episode or two and join in the backbiting though I did not stick around to find out if did happen or not (I did not see any sign of that happening which would be the only tired old sci-fi soap schtick he avoided I think). In space no one can hear you suds….
    -
    He seems to play the demographics game to the detriment of the core ideas of the show which is not so bad in original shows where there is nothing to compare to but is very bad in remakes of old classics.

  55. Sauroposeidon September 16, 2012 at 3:25 pm -      #55

    Ok, so 15, maybe 20ish tops. How many raiders do es each base star carry, again? And how well will the raiders be able to match up against the mobile suits being fielded? How vulnerable are zeon ships to raider spam?

  56. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2012 at 5:44 pm -      #56

    @Sauroposeidon
    “Ok, so 15, maybe 20ish tops. How many raiders do es each base star carry, again? And how well will the raiders be able to match up against the mobile suits being fielded? How vulnerable are zeon ships to raider spam?”
    -
    This I’d need to look up…(digs through bookmarks)…
    -
    OK..
    -
    en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Basestar_(RDM)
    -
    Going by this…
    -
    “A basestar’s complement of Raiders is estimated as high as 792 fighters[8], not counting fighters in repair or otherwise off-line. It should be noted that there are a total of 864 Raider launch slots on the arms of a pre-retconned Basestar. [9] In comparison, the retconned Basestar has only 434 Raider launch slots, a dramatic decrease from the previous version.[10][11]”
    -
    I must say, 792 is a lot of fighters. :lol:

  57. Sauroposeidon September 16, 2012 at 6:01 pm -      #57

    I can see why they dumbed it down. The old base stars are just so much more powerful than the old battlestars. The new show would not have lasted long if they were easily steam rolled in every fight. Still, at 434, we’re looking at over 6,500 raiders if we go with only 15 base stars. I think production of the Oggros will probably get ramped up to deal with the sheer numbers.. or Zeon may produce more wide beam firing mobile armors such as Apsalus and Big Zam to try and swat entire squadrons out of the air (for lack of a better term at this moment). Either way, Zeon isn’t out numbering them. Although their Dolos class ships might seriously convince any base star lacking back up to turn tail.

  58. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2012 at 6:30 pm -      #58

    @Sauroposeidon
    “I can see why they dumbed it down. The old base stars are just so much more powerful than the old battlestars. The new show would not have lasted long if they were easily steam rolled in every fight. Still, at 434, we’re looking at over 6,500 raiders if we go with only 15 base stars. I think production of the Oggros will probably get ramped up to deal with the sheer numbers.. or Zeon may produce more wide beam firing mobile armors such as Apsalus and Big Zam to try and swat entire squadrons out of the air (for lack of a better term at this moment). Either way, Zeon isn’t out numbering them. Although their Dolos class ships might seriously convince any base star lacking back up to turn tail.”
    -
    Though I don’t think I’m knowledgeable enough on the subject to carry on the “reverse engineering” debate right now(though I’m not convinced), i’m not sure you realize how their FTL works.
    -
    You just put in where your going, turn it on, and your there. Even mountains wont save you, as we’ve seen a raptor in up inside the solid rock of one when they messed up on putting in the destination.
    -
    If used logically it would be impossible to defend a planet from it, at least without some tech to stop it from working(which no one in NuBSG has).
    -
    Just set a nuke to explode in three seconds, then have the Raider jump into the center of the enemy city=boom.
    -
    Luckily for Zeon the Cylons don’t use it like this, but their not that far from it, and I’m not really seeing how they can deal with 500 Raiders just appearing in the upper atmosphere above their cites, only for them all to immediately launch their nukes.
    -
    This attack could come at any time, and I can’t see how all of Zeon could be ready to deal with it at any moment.

  59. Sauroposeidon September 16, 2012 at 6:46 pm -      #59

    The cities of earth Zeon occupies. Their actual cities are the colonies of side three, behind the moon. They also control Granada on the Moon. Although it too may qualify as ‘occupied.’ It’s very difficult to sufficiently kill a colony, and I’m not certain the Cylons would use nukes which would result in their own deaths, and because they would always need their resurrection ships near by I don’t think they’d use nukes of sufficient size for that to be in danger. We also haven’t gone over how many nukes the Cylons actually have or under what conditions they employ them. After a single nuclear strike I think it’s safe to say that Zeon will likely nuke spam in return, making every single engagement a nuke fest which would likely result in the loss of their all important resurrection ships. I strongly believe that if they send their agents in to gather information first, and they find out how the zeon and federation employed WMD’s with such rampant abandon during the first week of their own war, that they may back off from the idea of attempting to employ tactical nuclear strikes. Although if the Cylons start losing I wouldn’t put it past them. I suspect all of one colony laser shot would convince them to start fighting a lot fiercer.
    -
    So TL:DR..
    -
    A. How many nukes do they have?
    B. How often do they use them?
    C. Under what circumstances would they go all out with them?
    D. Considering minovsky interference fucks with signals, they’ll have to have their resurrection ships near by. Would they still use nukes then?

  60. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2012 at 7:02 pm -      #60

    @Sauroposeidon
    “The cities of earth Zeon occupies. Their actual cities are the colonies of side three, behind the moon. They also control Granada on the Moon. Although it too may qualify as ‘occupied.’ It’s very difficult to sufficiently kill a colony, and I’m not certain the Cylons would use nukes which would result in their own deaths”
    -
    A. Why would it? And B. Even if it did, that’s never stopped them before.
    -
    “and because they would always need their resurrection ships near by”
    -
    “near by” as in within a unknown number of light years… It’s not going to be a problem. :lol:
    -
    “I don’t think they’d use nukes of sufficient size for that to be in danger. We also haven’t gone over how many nukes the Cylons actually have or under what conditions they employ them.”
    -
    50mts, enough of them to kill 12 worlds, and “are there humans there?” Y/N, if yes they use them.
    -
    “D. Considering minovsky interference fucks with signals, they’ll have to have their resurrection ships near by. Would they still use nukes then?”
    -
    The rest I think I answered(If you don’t tell me), but this… I’m sorry to have to say it(and I really am), but prove that “minovsky interference” fucks with FTL signals.

  61. Belisaurius September 16, 2012 at 8:49 pm -      #61

    “This attack could come at any time, and I can’t see how all of Zeon could be ready to deal with it at any moment.”

    Three words. Combat Air Patrol. CAP in military parlance. Keep some mobile suits out at all times. Cycle them, keeping a constant presence in the area. For warships you get every turret facing a different direction and every ship covering a different arc. Organize convoys to protect against commerce raiders. Put megaparticle cannon installations in major bases and cities, similar to the ones at Jaburo.

    There aren’t any examples of the Cylons being able to jump into atmosphere. Sure, the Galactica did it but Battlestars are built like solid steel bricks. If Raiders could have jumped right into the cities, why didn’t the cylons, or indeed anyone, put FTL drives on missiles and not bother with the hacking or the base stars jumping into orbit? Simplest solution says they can’t. perhaps is a guidance thing, or maybe the FTL drive simply isn’t precise enough to permit those kind of maneuvers normally. Or maybe the physical stress of the jump is magnified by air pressure. Either way, the Adama maneuver stand unique as the only time jumps have been performed into or out off atmosphere.

    Finally, this is a take and hold battle, not an anihilation battle. Cylons are going to have to seize territory and radioactive hellholes are worthless to a conqueror. Capturing a mine gives you access to the ores. Capturing a factory means you can retool it for your own ends. Capturing ground zero to a nuclear attack means radiation sickness. Seeing as Cylons are at least partially organic radiation would affect them adversely.

  62. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2012 at 9:03 pm -      #62

    “There aren’t any examples of the Cylons being able to jump into atmosphere. Sure, the Galactica did it but Battlestars are built like solid steel bricks.”
    -
    More impotently, raptors have done it, why would they be able to, but not Raiders?
    -
    “If Raiders could have jumped right into the cities, why didn’t the cylons, or indeed anyone, put FTL drives on missiles and not bother with the hacking or the base stars jumping into orbit?”
    -
    That’s like asking “why does Star Trek not remember tech of the week?”, it’s stupid, but they don’t, which is why I wasn’t saying they would.
    -
    “Simplest solution says they can’t. perhaps is a guidance thing, or maybe the FTL drive simply isn’t precise enough to permit those kind of maneuvers normally. Or maybe the physical stress of the jump is magnified by air pressure.”
    -
    But we’ve seen that none of that’s true.
    -
    “Either way, the Adama maneuver stand unique as the only time jumps have been performed into or out off atmosphere.”
    -
    No it isn’t, they did it with raptors when they went to rescue Kira’s boyfriend.
    -
    “Finally, this is a take and hold battle, not an anihilation battle. Cylons are going to have to seize territory and radioactive hellholes are worthless to a conqueror. Capturing a mine gives you access to the ores. Capturing a factory means you can retool it for your own ends. Capturing ground zero to a nuclear attack means radiation sickness. Seeing as Cylons are at least partially organic radiation would affect them adversely.”
    -
    First of all, no ones said it’s a “take and hold battle”, and second it’s never stopped the Cylons before, in larg part because they seem to be immune to most forms of radioactivity.
    -
    I’m not even sure how you missed that one, as they spent most of the first season living on a “radioactive hellhole” that they conquered. :lol:

  63. Sauroposeidon September 16, 2012 at 9:25 pm -      #63

    “A. Why would it? And B. Even if it did, that’s never stopped them before.”
    -
    A colony has more mass to it then all the buildings of New York. It’s very difficult to break up something like that, although sufficient damage can force an evacuation.
    -
    “as in within a unknown number of light years”
    -
    The signal won’t punch through the minovsky interference going on in areas with military vessels patrolling. Cylons have a powerful phobia of death. They either accept that some of them are permanently dying or they risk the ship to avoid permanent loss of some of their members.
    -
    “50mts, enough of them to kill 12 worlds, and “are there humans there?” Y/N, if yes they use them.”
    -
    I’m thinking more about about military bases, enemy ships, ect, than civilian targets. Unlike, say, germany, Zeon actually has the majority of its production facilities at its bases away from its civilian areas. A Bao A Qu, a 13km long asteroid base being where their primary factories are.
    -
    “but prove that “minovsky interference” fucks with FTL signals.”
    -
    It interferes with the EM scale. Signals sent will be garbled, in the same way their sensors will be scrambled. The more mobile suits and ships destroyed, as well as the more scattering missiles used, and the more beam weapons fired, the more the interference will be.

  64. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2012 at 9:32 pm -      #64

    @Sauroposeidon
    “I’m thinking more about about military bases, enemy ships, ect, than civilian targets. Unlike, say, germany, Zeon actually has the majority of its production facilities at its bases away from its civilian areas. A Bao A Qu, a 13km long asteroid base being where their primary factories are.”
    -
    One(who, if the others know it or not, is the “one” in control) just doesn’t like humans, it really doesn’t take much more then that for him to start nuking.
    -
    “It interferes with the EM scale. Signals sent will be garbled, in the same way their sensors will be scrambled. The more mobile suits and ships destroyed, as well as the more scattering missiles used, and the more beam weapons fired, the more the interference will be.”
    -
    So… Prove that their FTL communications are on the EM scale, and what with how their FTL drives work, don’t just go strait to there destination.
    -
    And as where told almost nothing of them, good luck with that. :lol:

  65. Sauroposeidon September 16, 2012 at 9:38 pm -      #65

    “So… Prove that their FTL communications are on the EM scale, and what with how their FTL drives work, don’t just go strait to there destination.”
    -
    They are almost certainly non-exotic signals sent through typical FTL methods. It won’t stop them from being interfered with. We have no reason to think they’re anything special.
    -
    “When the Minovsky particle is spread in large numbers in the open air or in open space, the particles disrupt low-frequency electromagnetic radiation, such as microwaves and radio waves. The Minovsky particle also interferes with the operations of electronic circuitry and destroys unprotected circuits due to the particles’ high electrical charge which act like a continuous electromagnetic pulse on metal objects. Because of the way Minovsky particles react with other types of radiation, radar systems and long-range wireless communication systems become useless, infra-red signals are defracted and their accuracy decreases, and visible light is fogged. This became known as the “Minovsky Effect”.”
    -
    From the Gundam Wiki.
    -
    ” it really doesn’t take much more then that for him to start nuking.”
    -
    Let’s try this again. Which battles are the nukes used in, and in what numbers?

  66. Hi I am a Cylon September 16, 2012 at 9:42 pm -      #66

    Ok, Minovsky interference will scramble signals. HOWEVER this has not prevented cylons from going into battle before.

    My primary example is the Rebel Cylons, the 2s, 6s, and 8s, and the 3. They, along with the centurions marched headlong into battle to DESTROY a ressurection ship knowing they would not be ressurected even if they did die.

    So yes, cylons can make sacrifices if they are deemed necessary.

  67. Belisaurius September 16, 2012 at 9:49 pm -      #67

    “One(who, if the others know it or not, is the “one” in control) just doesn’t like humans, it really doesn’t take much more then that for him to start nuking.”
    -
    Ah, but then there is the issue of sending the nukes. In the initial attack the cylons jumped into orbit and launched the city busting nukes from there. However, Zeon doesn’t have the cohesive battle network that can be taken advantage off (side effect of minovsky particles) so the cylons will likely face opposition if they tried.
    -
    There is no evidence that cylons can jump into atmosphere and some evidence suggesting they can’t. Jumping near a colony or city just means they get shot down by beam weapons before the warheads reach their target.

  68. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2012 at 9:52 pm -      #68

    @Sauroposeidon
    “Let’s try this again. Which battles are the nukes used in, and in what numbers?”
    -
    The destruction of the colones(12… “earth-like” would be pushing it, but “earth-sized worlds” anyway) and more importantly the colonel fleet of something like 250 battlestars, and the cleanup of the civilian ships(who knows how many thousands), so…. a but load right there.
    -
    They’ve also tried to use them on the RTF a lot, but they normally jump out before they can(them being able to do that is why the writers made the FTL drives so broken, it’s just that they forgot to also make it make sense with the rest of the setting :roll: ).
    -
    “They are almost certainly non-exotic signals sent through typical FTL methods. It won’t stop them from being interfered with. We have no reason to think they’re anything special.”
    -
    As their “typical FTL method” is “I’m here, no I’m there”…. that doesn’t help you case, and it is “you case” as in you actually have to prove it, not just say it.
    -
    Unless you can name the part of the EM scale that’s FTL, or show them saying it is, there’s no proof they use it.

  69. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2012 at 9:55 pm -      #69

    @Belisaurius
    “There is no evidence that cylons can jump into atmosphere and some evidence suggesting they can’t. Jumping near a colony or city just means they get shot down by beam weapons before the warheads reach their target.”
    -
    “some evidence suggesting they can’t”
    -
    No there really isn’t.

  70. Hi I am a Cylon September 16, 2012 at 9:55 pm -      #70

    And again, nukes are really only seen being used within the first few episodes and “Razor’s Edge” as, for most of the show there isn’t even largescale warfare in space.

    However within these shows I have mentioned the cylons set off well over 40 nukes based off of explosions alone.

    One video of cylons shooting off a load of nukes.(Not all missile based explosions are nukes but most of them are. Practically every missile launch within the first five episodes was a nuke being fired.)

  71. Sauroposeidon September 16, 2012 at 11:02 pm -      #71

    “Ok, Minovsky interference will scramble signals. HOWEVER this has not prevented cylons from going into battle before.
    My primary example is the Rebel Cylons, the 2s, 6s, and 8s, and the 3. They, along with the centurions marched headlong into battle to DESTROY a ressurection ship knowing they would not be ressurected even if they did die.
    So yes, cylons can make sacrifices if they are deemed necessary.”
    -
    How do they produce more cylons when the old ones have died? Do they just remain dead? How do they breed or generate more? This is important for knowing how they may recover their losses if they risk not bringing a resurrection ship along.
    -
    “Unless you can name the part of the EM scale that’s FTL, or show them saying it is, there’s no proof they use it.”
    -
    Really the only two methods I can think of is either the signal is somehow propelled at FTL speeds or they use worm hole style FTL like with their vessels. There may be another method all together like with what Star Trek does with subspace. All three methods would fail against Minovsky Interference. Much of the data would likely be garbled after a pitched battle. Unless you can think of another method, I don’t see how their signals wouldn’t be scrambled. Any attempts to nuke will likely end up finding they have to deal with military assets in the area which will respond quickly, while the Raiders may not even be immune to the Minovsky Interference themselves (at least initially) and suffer from it, including loss of FTL and other systems, unless they’re protected from the EMP effect of being in the Minovsky Field.
    -
    “One video of cylons shooting off a load of nukes.(Not all missile based explosions are nukes but most of them are. Practically every missile launch within the first five episodes was a nuke being fired.)”
    -
    Simply for comparative purposes, here is one version of the battle of A Bao A Qu.
    -
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=aauHXyQGCaY
    -
    Present in this battle are..
    -
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixZmP1USuRo&feature=BFa&list=ULKlTdQdSqtVI
    -
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0B5s8XRnlU
    -
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_C2El1Z3fs&feature=relmfu
    -
    and
    -
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQtYddpAMxg&feature=relmfu
    -
    Although obviously not all that is used, but it’s nice to just have some visuals. Those videos also provide some data on their intended role and history.

  72. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2012 at 11:13 pm -      #72

    @Sauroposeidon
    “Really the only two methods I can think of is either the signal is somehow propelled at FTL speeds or they use worm hole style FTL like with their vessels. There may be another method all together like with what Star Trek does with subspace. All three methods would fail against Minovsky Interference.”
    -
    How the hell would Minovsky Interference Interfere with the worm hole style FTL?
    -
    It wouldn’t travel through the particles, it would just be going from the cylons head, to a ship light years away.
    -
    But really, as you can’t say what it does, you can’t just say “Minovsky particles work on it”(well you could, but we’re already past post 50 :D ).

  73. Sauroposeidon September 16, 2012 at 11:17 pm -      #73

    “How the hell would Minovsky Interference Interfere with the worm hole style FTL?”
    -
    Because you still have to transmit the signal through the heavy minovsky interference in to the worm hole, and in some renditions even being near an active mobile suit completely fucks up things like radar and long range communications. Mobile suits are routinely depicted as touch to transmit sound between each other. Radio is often unreliable (and yet always reliable when the plot calls for it, strangely enough).
    -
    “(well you could, but we’re already past post 50 ).”
    -
    No I couldn’t say that before. I would need to show that minovsky particles would screw stuff up. Although I believe I have, now.

  74. Shgon Dunstan September 16, 2012 at 11:24 pm -      #74

    @Sauroposeidon
    “Because you still have to transmit the signal through the heavy minovsky interference in to the worm hole, and in some renditions even being near an active mobile suit completely fucks up things like radar and long range communications. Mobile suits are routinely depicted as touch to transmit sound between each other. Radio is often unreliable (and yet always reliable when the plot calls for it, strangely enough).”
    -
    …This is NuBSG not B5…
    -
    If it uses a “worm hole method” it wouldn’t be shooting it out side of the “ship”(as we’re talking about a human-form Cylon, that would be their body itself).
    -
    “No I couldn’t say that before. I would need to show that minovsky particles would screw stuff up. Although I believe I have, now.”
    -
    Actually…
    -
    “1. Battle Scenarios Reign Supreme
    All debating rules in FactPile are subject to be altered or otherwise ignored in the battle’s scenario. Should the scenario not make any exception, the rest of the items on this list stand as default rules.
    -
    Battle Scenarios that are not clear, or have obviated crucial elements, must be brought to the attention of; A) Admin; B) the battle’s poster; C) the battle’s creator. Any scenario to be altered must be approved by Admin, or any party appointed by him, to be made official. That said, debates may continue without an official determination made if all sides agree upon the disputed terms, but any outcome from these may be rendered null by an official ruling at a later time.”
    -
    You could say “magic=food” if you wanted to :D (I doubt anyone else would like it if you actually did :lol: ).

  75. BC September 17, 2012 at 2:02 am -      #75

    “ And how well will the raiders be able to match up against the mobile suits being fielded? How vulnerable are zeon ships to raider spam? “
    -
    The new colonial vipers do not seem to be much better armed than late 20th century fighter aircraft. They use slugthowing cannon that fire projectiles slow enough to actually see them bouncing off of armor at times (the same visuals as ‘space above and beyond’ used in fact) and if I remember correctly small antiaircraft missiles and this junk actually works against the new style raiders. Considering Zakus take several hits at least from a heavy tank cannon to destroy I do not see how the Raiders are likely to be able to do much damage to them (unless I am missing something, I did not see all of NuBSG). A corollary to that is that the Raider armor would be like wet toilet paper to the guns of the suits, much less the heavy guns on the ships. It is even possible that the heavier suits could tear up basestars without that much problem.
    -
    Something to think about with the M particles is that they not only mess with signals, in sufficient number they shut down or burn out electronics as well. That would play havoc with not only nuke warheads (and I seem to remember something about some of the later nukes in the initial attack going off course and hitting other areas just from the EM interference of the preceding nukes so they cannot be hardened very well). It would also play havoc with ship systems which could make FTL communications spotty (not that it was incredibly reliable all the time in the NuBSG series anyway).

    “ The destruction of the colones(12… “earth-like” would be pushing it, but “earth-sized worlds” anyway) and more importantly the colonel fleet of something like 250 battlestars, and the cleanup of the civilian ships(who knows how many thousands), so…. a but load right there. “
    -
    What made the initial Cylon attack so effective is that the infiltrators already stole the codes to the network and sabotaged the defense system so they were completely unopposed. This is not the case in this scenario; the Zeon defenses are all independent of each other and will likely blast anything that suddenly appears out of nowhere on the assumption that it is an attack force using M particles as a screen and that it just emerged from them to attack and then try to communicate with whatever may have survived to find out who they just shot.
    -
    The thing about jumping into atmosphere, it might be a case of air displacement, and a raptor is not very big and is built sturdier than a fighter so it has a chance of survival if it is discovered skulking about. Basestars do not seem to like atmosphere much even without jumping into it, they apparently have to realign the arms and use them as wings or something along those lines. It is possible that the atmospheres resistance to sudden displacement could crush or damage the relatively large and frail basestar.
    -
    How fast can the resurrection ships process casualties? Attacking a large Zeon installation would be very costly; the Zeon forces look like they would go through Raiders like a lawnmower going through grass judging from the fire rates and firepower in the Gundam clips.

  76. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2012 at 2:20 am -      #76

    @BC
    “The thing about jumping into atmosphere, it might be a case of air displacement, and a raptor is not very big and is built sturdier than a fighter so it has a chance of survival if it is discovered skulking about. Basestars do not seem to like atmosphere much even without jumping into it, they apparently have to realign the arms and use them as wings or something along those lines. It is possible that the atmospheres resistance to sudden displacement could crush or damage the relatively large and frail basestar.”
    -
    I think the biggest problem with the bigger ships(battlestars & basestars) going in atmosphere, is just that their not built for it, I can’t really remember clearly, but a basestar might of hovered over a city once, but like I said there not really built for it.
    -
    The smaller ships don’t seem to have this problem, there gone in atmosphere a few times, and when the raptors jumped into atmosphere the only problem they seemed to have, is one of them messing up, and ending up in a mountain.
    -
    “How fast can the resurrection ships process casualties?”
    -
    This would of been something the writers would of filed under “We’ll pull a number out of our ass if and when we need it”…. they didn’t, but I can point out that they can keep minds in storage(things just a little bit bigger then a flash-drive), so if they need a little time catch up with the backlog they, can take it.

  77. Belisaurius September 17, 2012 at 2:21 pm -      #77

    “No there really isn’t.”
    They WHY did the cylons bother with all the infiltration when they could have just jumped in nukes right on top of the cities?
    -
    “The destruction of the colones(12… “earth-like” would be pushing it, but “earth-sized worlds” anyway) and more importantly the colonel fleet of something like 250 battlestars, and the cleanup of the civilian ships(who knows how many thousands), so…. a but load right there.”
    HAH, try a dozen or so. Certainly enough that they all managed to fit in a single dockyard.
    -
    “I think the biggest problem with the bigger ships(battlestars & basestars) going in atmosphere, is just that their not built for it, I can’t really remember clearly, but a basestar might of hovered over a city once, but like I said there not really built for it.”
    Do you remember which episode?

  78. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2012 at 2:29 pm -      #78

    @Belisaurius
    “They WHY did the cylons bother with all the infiltration when they could have just jumped in nukes right on top of the cities?”
    -
    Plot, “it might not be the fun answer, but it’s the truthful one” :D .
    -
    “HAH, try a dozen or so. Certainly enough that they all managed to fit in a single dockyard.”
    -
    …What are you even talking about? :?
    -
    “Do you remember which episode?”
    -
    It was ether in season 2′s “lay down your burdens” part 1 or 2, if that’snot enough to go on, I can try to look it up later.

  79. Sauroposeidon September 17, 2012 at 4:00 pm -      #79

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1oqAHa_gA
    -
    This video is important because it displays the Colony Laser in action, as well as the original depiction of the battle of A Bao A Qu. The Colony Laser is the weapon which I feel will give the Cylons the most trouble.

  80. Sauroposeidon September 17, 2012 at 4:18 pm -      #80

    er, for the record, the colony laser is shown right after the introductory commercial and intro song. The battle takes up pretty much the whole episode after that.

  81. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2012 at 4:28 pm -      #81

    @Sauroposeidon
    “This video is important because it displays the Colony Laser in action, as well as the original depiction of the battle of A Bao A Qu. The Colony Laser is the weapon which I feel will give the Cylons the most trouble.”
    -
    ….Yeah, way overkill. :lol:
    -
    Like I said before, battlestars are carriers/warships, basestars are just carriers.
    -
    Even in the show, if a battlestars got in close to a basestars they could kill them rather easily.
    -
    Their just not that heavily armored, and so relay mainly on their missiles and fighters to keep them safe.
    -
    That being said, their fighters have their own FTL, so they don’t need to be there.

  82. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2012 at 4:43 pm -      #82

    An old and dead fic, but though it’s been a while I remember liking it.
    -
    www.fanfiction.net/s/3246264/1/

  83. Sauroposeidon September 17, 2012 at 5:36 pm -      #83

    “Even in the show, if a battlestars got in close to a basestars they could kill them rather easily.”
    -
    Basestars seemed to be about even with battlestars from what I saw.
    -
    “Their just not that heavily armored, and so relay mainly on their missiles and fighters to keep them safe.”
    -
    They seemed to take an awful lot of hits before finally going down.
    -
    “That being said, their fighters have their own FTL, so they don’t need to be there.”
    -
    The colony laser would function roughly like artillery, not brought to the front of any battle. Point it to where ever their vessels are resting, fire.

  84. Sauroposeidon September 17, 2012 at 5:46 pm -      #84

    Actually, I wonder if the Cylons would strike at the colony laser first, if they have spies and know about stuff like that..

  85. BC September 17, 2012 at 5:51 pm -      #85

    ” Basestars seemed to be about even with battlestars from what I saw. ”
    -
    I seem to remember battlestars taking on basestars at two or three to one and winning.

  86. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2012 at 5:55 pm -      #86

    “I seem to remember battlestars taking on basestars at two or three to one and winning.”
    -
    A beat up old war horse of a battlestar at that.

  87. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2012 at 6:02 pm -      #87

    Is it just me, or I’m I jumping form talking up the Cylons in one post, only to talk them right back down in the next?
    -
    This is what happens when people make Vs with sides they don’t know that well.
    -
    I think it comes down to that I think more of their FTL drive then Sauroposeidon, but he has a inflated idea of their combat power, so around and around I go. :lol:

  88. Sauroposeidon September 17, 2012 at 6:07 pm -      #88

    “I think it comes down to that I think more of their FTL drive then Sauroposeidon, but he has a inflated idea of their combat power, so around and around I go. ”
    -
    Most of the combat footage I’ve seen comes from the fight where the Pegasus is lost, where its two battle stars and two base stars it looked like. So from my perspective it looked like they were evenly matched. My apologies. Regardless of that, even with their crazy powerful beam cannons, the most common zeon ship, the musai, has little armor, and is extremely compact. If you land a hit on it you’re either hitting a turret, bridge, engine block, a docked smaller vessel, a hanger, or a supplies depo. There’s extremely little spare room on them, making any direct hit one that is likely to either result in the complete destruction of the ship or one that will utterly cripple it. So I think Basestars stand more of a chance involving Zeon ships than Battlestars.
    -
    “This is what happens when people make Vs with sides they don’t know that well.”
    -
    Hey, both Zeon and the Cylons need more love on this site. Can’t fault me for trying to give them some. I really should get around to watching BSG sometime..

  89. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2012 at 6:16 pm -      #89

    @Sauroposeidon
    “Hey, both Zeon and the Cylons need more love on this site. Can’t fault me for trying to give them some. I really should get around to watching BSG sometime..”
    -
    I know, and I don’t mean to be overly critical, it’s just that I find the fact hat at least twice in this Vs when I was debating that their FTL would give them an easy win, I said something like “in a strait up fight, they would just get massacred” only for you to jump in on how they wouldn’t(with, to me at least, seemly little idea what they could, or couldn’t do), rather funny. :lol:

  90. Sauroposeidon September 17, 2012 at 6:21 pm -      #90

    That’s because I don’t think they’d get straight up massacred. Well, I do think there’d be an ass ton of losses, but in Gundam that’s par for the course. So I suppose I should say when they engage each other, I expect heavy losses on both sides, and not an easy or clear cut win for Zeon in many ship to ship engagements.

  91. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2012 at 6:43 pm -      #91

    @Sauroposeidon
    “That’s because I don’t think they’d get straight up massacred. Well, I do think there’d be an ass ton of losses, but in Gundam that’s par for the course. So I suppose I should say when they engage each other, I expect heavy losses on both sides, and not an easy or clear cut win for Zeon in many ship to ship engagements.”
    -
    While even their non-nuclear missiles have some big booms, beyond that we’re just talking peashooters that I’m not even sure would scratch the paint of a Gundam, maybe one of the “explode at the touch of a strong wind” mobile suits, but not a Gundam.
    -
    And to hear you talk, any of their missiles will be luckily to get through their point defense, so…. Yeah, if they have to stand and fight, their going to get massacred.

  92. Sauroposeidon September 17, 2012 at 7:01 pm -      #92

    “While even their non-nuclear missiles have some big booms, beyond that we’re just talking peashooters that I’m not even sure would scratch the paint of a Gundam, maybe one of the “explode at the touch of a strong wind” mobile suits, but not a Gundam.”
    -
    Zeon’s suits are far more sturdy than Oz’s.. but they’re no Gundam. They use conventional armor, not that super durable Luna Titanium that nearly everything is armored in by the years of the grypps conflict that zeta happens in. Sure the Gundam could take dozens of missile hits.. but a Zaku getting swarmed wouldn’t last remotely as long.
    -
    “And to hear you talk, any of their missiles will be luckily to get through their point defense, so…. Yeah, if they have to stand and fight, their going to get massacred.”
    -
    I didn’t make that argument. I argued that the vital zeon positions are well armored against nuclear assault, and the raider losses would be very high if they appeared in small strike forces with no support. A combined tactics approach like as was used by Londo Bell against Char’s Neo Zeon would work far better. Sufficient rail spam should also have some effect.

  93. Shgon Dunstan September 17, 2012 at 7:11 pm -      #93

    @Sauroposeidon
    “I didn’t make that argument. I argued that the vital zeon positions are well armored against nuclear assault, and the raider losses would be very high if they appeared in small strike forces with no support. A combined tactics approach like as was used by Londo Bell against Char’s Neo Zeon would work far better. Sufficient rail spam should also have some effect.”
    -
    You know, in this fight I have to keep telling myself “Yes their FTL can do that, but no they’d never realize that it can”, case in point, the FTL itself is a rather nice weapon, you know how I said that the battlestars can take 2-3 50mt nukes?
    -
    If used right next to it, the FTL eats through it like butter. :D
    -
    I’m not sure if it a case of it taking the armor with it, or if it causes some kind of repelling force, either way raiders could do a lot of damage with this….
    -
    Oh well. :(

  94. Sauroposeidon September 17, 2012 at 7:21 pm -      #94

    The reason they have such abilities but never exploit them is because battlestar writers are awful compared to stargate writers. Still stung over how they tried to make “battlestargate” with SGU.. god damn that was one shitty show.

  95. BC September 18, 2012 at 2:21 am -      #95

    Abrams was not really interested in the space battles or even the war in general, it was just the backdrop for the melodrama to play in front of. It just kind of lamely plodded along in the background not really doing anything until the current melodramatic thread ran dry and a change of situation was needed at which point it had a brief run in the foreground to set up the next backstabbing or whatever and then would be relegated to backdrop again until the next change.
    -
    That formula is part of everything Abrams has done as far as I can tell, it was just a bit more pushed in NuBSG and SGU. He does not care about, and maybe even does not know anything about science or technology or the usual things that make sci-fi believable and good; he knows people and how they misbehave and generally act like jerks in a Hollywood style business/social setting and that is what he writes about and then throws the trappings of whatever genre on it in a haphazard way and calls it a movie or series. Some people actually seem to like that kind of tripe, I have to agree with Sauro though that it is not a good way to write sci-fi like SGU.

  96. Sauroposeidon September 18, 2012 at 3:26 am -      #96

    That completely explains why everyone at the party at the start of Cloverfield was a complete douche. I was beginning to wonder why they were even all hanging out together. Oh well.. they were too busy running for their lives for the rest of the movie. =) Shame the monster itself was so uncharismatic in design.

  97. Sauroposeidon September 30, 2012 at 1:01 pm -      #97

    I was really interested in discussing how the Cylons might try to achieve victory through infiltration before engaging in any forward assaults..but it seems the match has died. A pity.

  98. Shgon Dunstan July 22, 2013 at 10:48 am -      #98

    “I was really interested in discussing how the Cylons might try to achieve victory through infiltration before engaging in any forward assaults..but it seems the match has died. A pity.”
    -
    Might of already said as much, but the problem with that is this is a Vs not a What If, and…
    -
    “6. Prep and Knowledge
    All parties involved in a battle are made aware of the opposition and a general idea of their capabilities. This means that no combatant is assumed to be at a passive demeanor past the merging point. That does not mean, however, that combatants are made aware of the opposition’s strengths, weaknesses, or past history.”
    -
    There are rules that make that kind of stuff in Vs…. Hard.
    -
    I mean, take WoT Vs SoT, ether side could try *not* breaking out the dooms day weapons first thing, and aiming to kill everyone on the other side, but… If they don’t kill them, wha are they supposed to do with them? As every man woman and child on the other side will fight to the last breath against them.
    -
    So…. How are the Cylons supposed to infiltrate, when *everyone* on the other side is on a war footing?
    -
    Doable, but a lot harder then it was with the unaware colonies, and of *quickly* decreasing returns as Zeon starts to identify their all of 12- models.

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