Suggested by Epicazeroth
Gondolin (Lord of the Rings) in a battle against the Wizard’s Keep from the Sword of Truth series in who can outlast the other.
5,000 Daedra attack each.
No backups for the Daedra.
Who lasts longest, or do they win?
If they both win, who wins better?
…Does anyone need specs for the types of Daedra? And I forgot to mention, any level of canon may be used for Gondolin (or Wizard’s Keep, but that only has one source AFAIK.)
Also, First!
Uuuh…tough.
Alas, I don’t recall much was specific about Gondolins defenses. Gondor may be a better candidate.
There’s lots in BoLT. Am I going to be debating my own match again? Where are Zazax and/or fantasywind?
…..Just 5,000 Daedra?
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…Is that even enough to take down ether?
@Shgon: I’ll admit, I don’t know much about Skyrim (read: anything), so if that number needs revising, someone else should do it.
@epicazeroth
“I’ll admit, I don’t know much about Skyrim (read: anything), so if that number needs revising, someone else should do it.”
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I’m not knowledgeable enough about them myself to say for sure, it just struck me as weird to have “Who lasts the longest” Vs against so small a force that not one, but both might beat.
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I mean, who wins if they both beat the Daedra?
There are many kinds of Daedra, Daedric Princes who are basically gods, Dremora who are basically humanoid warriors and mages with daedric gear (the best), then a whole bunch of elementals, beasts, and demon looking things.
www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedra
@NemoVonUtopia
“There are many kinds of Daedra, Daedric Princes who are basically gods, Dremora who are basically humanoid warriors and mages with daedric gear (the best), then a whole bunch of elementals, beasts, and demon looking things.
www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedra”
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Yes, but if we’re talking Daedric Princes, then the answer to the Vs is they both last five seconds, the end.
Are we using the forces of Gondolin during the Fall of Gondolin?
Are these high elves in gondolin? I thought they were but its been a while scents I have visited that era of middle earth.
We would need someone more knowledgeable about gondolin, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they outnumbered the attacking forces over 10-1, and thats on top of the fortifications.
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And while I don’t know anything about the “Wizard’s Keep”, the name suggest that it has at least a few SoT magic users in it, which also makes me think that five thousand might not be enough.
Well, Turgon’s army when he marched was over 10K, but he’d presumably have not sent all his might. Don’t Daedric Princes never leave Oblivion? Someone else should pick the Daedra, as I don’t know about them. Wizard’s Keep will have anyone who’s normally in it.
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@itcheyness: Is there a difference, aside from if it was DURING the Fall, there would be Morgoth’s army, too?
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@koldfury: Yes.
@epicazeroth
“Wizard’s Keep will have anyone who’s normally in it.”
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Which is?
@epic
I just meant are the characters that defended Gondolin during the fall defending Gondolin now, or are we just using a generic elf army?
How about 1,000 ogrim, 1,000 spider daedra, 1,000 winged twilights, and 2,000 xivilai? How does that look?
@itcheyness: The Gondolondrim/Gondothlim are defending.
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@Soulerous: Is it fair? If so, sure.
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@Shgon/someone knowledgeable about SoT: Does the same layout as Siege: Wizard’s Keep work?
@epicazeroth
” Is it fair? If so, sure.”
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Well, both spider daedra and xivilai summon other Daedra in fights, so that’s three thousand more Daedra in the fight….
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But as I already thought the fight needed more Daedra, I’ve got no problem with that.
Then well use that, I guess.
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I should say the the secret passage doesn’t exist, and Daedra who can’t either climb extremely well or fly have to try to ride up or pass the Gates (I think the Echoriath is pretty much unclimbable), and the 12 Houses are here (and Maeglin will not defect.)
“Wizard’s Keep will have anyone who’s normally in it.”
The Wizard’s Keep doesn’t usually have anyone in it, except for maybe a couple of the main characters. It hasn’t had anyone in it since some time before the series starts.
@Zazax
“The Wizard’s Keep doesn’t usually have anyone in it, except for maybe a couple of the main characters. It hasn’t had anyone in it since some time before the series starts.”
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Does it at least Richard Rahl?
“Does it at least Richard Rahl?”>Does it at least have Richard Rahl?
On occasion. Zedd’s a good bet too.
@Zazax
“On occasion. Zedd’s a good bet too”
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So Richard and Zedd Vs 8,000 Daedra?
Later in the series other main characters start spending more time in it (including but not limited to Kahlan, Cara, and Nicci), but I don’t recall there ever being a full army stationed there
*refers to post 16*
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Or is that too little, do there need to be more? Or should they just be troops of the First File?
”The Wizard’s Keep doesn’t usually have anyone in it, except for maybe a couple of the main characters. It hasn’t had anyone in it since some time before the series starts”
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Verna and the Sisters of the Light live there now training wizards. Chase and his family live there now also. Pretty much everyone else is at The People’s Palace in D’Hara in The Omen Machine. I almost wonder if that would be a better fit than the Wizard’s Keep.
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Either way this: ”Anyways, to get things started, inside the Wizard’s Keep will be Zeddicus Zu’l Zorander, Ricahrd Rahl, Kahlan Amnell, Cara and 500 D’Haran Troops” should be who at least is there. Maybe more depending.
@ptaine
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So how good at army killing are SoT magic users?
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As Gondolin likely outnumbers it attackers, their really going to need to pick up the slack if SoT hopes to pull out a win here.
@ptaine: Then, maybe combine the two (what you said and the description for “Siege: Wizard’s Keep)?
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@Shgon: I thought of that, but Wizard’s Keep has magic defenses and hidden surprises (and offensive magic), so I thought that’d make up for it.
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OK, if everyone agrees, then this will use Soulerous’ Daedric forces. Also if people agree, the Sisters of Light, Chase and his family, Zedd, Richard, Kahlan, Cara, and 500 D’Haran soldiers (of the 1st File?).
”So how good at army killing are SoT magic users?”
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Well, Richard has that instance where he leveled the thousand Horsemen charging at him and a similar occurrence in a later book. Zedd and Adie were able to fend off an attack on Aydindril by themselves with constructed spells procured from the Keep and magic of their own conjuring. The Sisters of the Light have also seen a few battles since joining with the D’Haran army.
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So depending on how the opposition is they’re pretty capable.
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”Then, maybe combine the two (what you said and the description for “Siege: Wizard’s Keep)?”
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Yeah, that should probably work.
@ptaine
“Well, Richard has that instance where he leveled the thousand Horsemen charging at him and a similar occurrence in a later book. Zedd and Adie were able to fend off an attack on Aydindril by themselves with constructed spells procured from the Keep and magic of their own conjuring. The Sisters of the Light have also seen a few battles since joining with the D’Haran army.”
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Sounds good….. But now that I think of it, two of those kinds of Daedra(the winged twilights and xivilai) reflect spells back at the one who used it on them….
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So… how does magic = magic stand?
”So… how does magic = magic stand?”
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I’m not entirely sure what you mean. As in getting the magic reflected back at them?
@ptaine
“I’m not entirely sure what you mean. As in getting the magic reflected back at them?”
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Yes, I forget what % of it, but those two have the ability(and I’m talking “ability” as in “it’s always on”) to reflect any damage spell used on them back at the one who used it. I forget if they still get damaged by it.
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So does ES magic = SoT magic?
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I don’t know a whole lot of ether, but what I’ve heard sounds alike enough.
Er … both fortresses win convincingly.
Gondolin’s a fortress city that makes Minas Tirith and Minas Ithil (combined) at their peaks look undefended.
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The Imperial Order only got inside the Wizard’s Keep because the only defenders were Zedd and Adie, and they used the pristinely ungifted Bandakar.
Chase and his family and Fredrich moved into the Keep.
Nicci is also presumably at the Keep, as would be additional Mord-Sith beyond just Cara.
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Witch Women can reflect magic back at the caster and Zedd knows how to kick the ass of a witch women.
Also, SoT magic can be used indirectly to affect those immune to magic, so presumably indirect effects would work just fine against the reflecting Daedra.
“So does ES magic = SoT magic?”
Elemental Compatability says yes.
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Also, are the Daedra way too few?
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Actually, who lives at the Keep or visits it regularly (like, once a month)?
”Actually, who lives at the Keep or visits it regularly (like, once a month)?”
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I’m not entirely sure of the timetables of anything because for awhile Aydindril was completely evacuated because of the Imperial Order’s march up the Midlands. At that time is was just Zedd and Adie living at the Keep. Eventually Richard, Nicci, Cara, another Mord-Sith named Rikka, Nathan Rahl and Anne all showed up at various points, but like I said now everyone is pretty much at the People’s Palace as of the last book, The Omen Machine.
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”Witch Women can reflect magic back at the caster and Zedd knows how to kick the ass of a witch women”
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The effectiveness of this may entirely be because of how Witch Women reflect the magic back, but he didn’t really kick any of the Witch Women’s asses that he fought he just managed to mitigate their effectiveness against him. He did get the paralyzing spell he used in the first book reflected back at him so there’s that as well. Indirect damage would definitely work well though I would imagine.
Note that daedra seem to be immune to normal weapons.
@Soulerous
“Note that daedra seem to be immune to normal weapons.”
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…….Forgot that part.
Does that include giant (anti-)siege engines and weapons used by superhumans?
It seems only enchanted weapons or those made of silver or higher-quality materials(ebony, I’m assuming) can affect them.
@epicazeroth
“Does that include giant (anti-)siege engines and weapons used by superhumans?”
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As for “(anti-)siege engines and weapons used by superhumans”… Don’t really see why it would make them work.
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Gondolin on the other hand doesn’t really need to worry about this, as just about anything made by LotR elves is at least a little magic.
Well the First File has enchanted bolts and Richard’s has his sword obviously.
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Are these Daedra affected by explosions?
So far it looks to me that Gondolin is winning, because at no point so far have the attacker posed a real threat to them, where as we can’t decide if we have to many daedra for the Wizard’s Keep to handle(or for that matter, if anyone’s in the Wizard’s Keep
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@ptaine
“Are these Daedra affected by explosions?”
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I think so, but I don’t know for sure.
Should I add more Daedra? Or at least to Gondolin?
”So far it looks to me that Gondolin is winning, because at no point so far have the attacker posed a real threat to them, where as we can’t decide if we have to many daedra for the Wizard’s Keep to handle”
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To be honest with you, the opposite is true for me. To a certain extent anyway. I know absolutely nothing about Gondolin and at no point in my mind has the attacker posed any threat to the Wizard’s Keep. My problem is I know nothing about the Daedra so I’ve been trying to decide how fair it is to them.
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And if they are affected by explosions it cuts down on the fairness considerably. Plus Nicci’s command of Subtractive Magic (if she is there) is something else I’m not sure of either in light of this magical reflection bit.
@ptaine
“To be honest with you, the opposite is true for me.”
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And to be fair to the Wizard’s Keep, I don’t know anything about it myself.
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But like I said early in the fight, I wouldn’t be surprised if Gondolin outnumbered the attacking forces over 10-1.
@ptaine: While the Daedra may be unable to threaten WK, Gondolin crushes them, as it is.
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That’s why, should the attackers be changed?
”While the Daedra may be unable to threaten WK, Gondolin crushes them, as it is”
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And, while that may be true I haven’t seen any evidence suggesting that’s the case. In my mind though the Wizard’s Keep crushes them, which in that case I would have to provide evidence supporting that.
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But that then goes to this: ”That’s why, should the attackers be changed?” I don’t yet know how the capabilities affect either group for me to satisfactorily say one way or the other. So right now I would say keep it as is until some semblance of interaction is better established.
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A good start would be here: ”But like I said early in the fight, I wouldn’t be surprised if Gondolin outnumbered the attacking forces over 10-1”….quotes?
@ptaine
“A good start would be here: ”But like I said early in the fight, I wouldn’t be surprised if Gondolin outnumbered the attacking forces over 10-1”….quotes?”
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I said “I wouldn’t be surprised”, you’d need someone a lot more interested to try and pull a exact number out of Tolkien.
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But remember that first age armies are a lot bigger then third age armies, and even then we’re talking over 10,000 in the good guy’s army(don’t remember the exact number), and well over 100,000 in Sauron’s.
seems more info for the attackers needs to be presented for either defending side to determine the level of difficulty in repelling them.
(Sees Mike)
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”I said “I wouldn’t be surprised”, you’d need someone a lot more interested to try and pull a exact number out of Tolkien. But remember that first age armies are a lot bigger then third age armies, and even then we’re talking over 10,000 in the good guy’s army(don’t remember the exact number), and well over 100,000 in Sauron’s.”
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I got the whole “I wouldn’t be surprised” thing. The problem is that’s essentially the only information I’ve been given aside from Kytheros’s post: “Gondolin’s a fortress city that makes Minas Tirith and Minas Ithil (combined) at their peaks look undefended.”
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Now from that evidence and the little about the Daedra that’s been given. We’re supposed to satisfactorily decide, not only the interaction between the attackers and defenders but also compare that interaction between these two fortresses?
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You don’t necessarily have to provide that information and that wasn’t the point I was making, but there really isn’t a lot of information or any explanations of how things interact with the information provided.
@ptaine
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(Still just depressed that Mike is back)
sorry i depress you. grow up.
@Mike
“sorry i depress you. grow up.”
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I was mostly just joking, I mean it was nice to be able to actually debate a fight with SoT in it….. But at the same time, without you here there really much activity in “Rand al’Thor Vs Richard Rahl”, to the point that I was starting to think that the thread would die, and admin would try to use that as a reason not to give Rand his award.
@Shgon Dunstan
-Well you already know my opinion on the rand vs richard fight. I’ll get to it eventually. Been working a lot and took some time to enjoy summer instead of posting on this site; I’ll work my way back to posting more often in the near future, even if some don’t like the idea.
@Mike
“Well you already know my opinion on the rand vs richard fight. I’ll get to it eventually. Been working a lot and took some time to enjoy summer instead of posting on this site; I’ll work my way back to posting more often in the near future, even if some don’t like the idea.”
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Well, right now “Rand al’Thor Vs Richard Rahl” in on hold until MoL comes out, admin has refused to give any award until then.
@Mike
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Rand & Richard have just about won “Rand al’Thor & Richard Rahl Vs Dante & Alucard” though.
MoL must be the new WoT book coming in January? There’s supposed to be an Omen Machine sequel in the SoT series before the end of the year(IIRC, this month), but i haven’t looked into it lately. so two new books with info to debate with in January.
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The RR vs DA match turned out better than I originally thought then.
If I’m not mistaken the new Goodkind book is about Magda Searus. I don’t know about the sequel to The Omen Machine though.
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Either way though the place hasn’t been the same without you Mike.
just did some research on the books…..
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-The First Confessor: The Legend of Magda Searus is a self published book so it’s not part of Terry Goodkind’s 3 book deal with tor and apparently just came out already. So The Omen Machine might end up being a trillogy of sorts(to be honest wrapping up plots quicker than 11 books would be nice).
www.terrygoodkind.com/ (yup, cover on the home page)
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-The Omen Machine sequel I haven’t seen anything about in a while, but here’s something from Goodkind saying it will be out this year.
forums.legendoftheseeker.org/showthread.php/6027-Omen-Machine-Sequel-Announcement
@ptaine: OK, Turgon’s CIS flaw is that he’s so heavily focused on protecting his people, he wouldn’t go to war until he absolutely was going to lose otherwise (in the early manuscript, he still didn’t go then.) Thus, it would make sense for him not to send his entire army to the Nirnaeth. Even then, it was stated to be over 10K soldiers. Now, if he left enough men for the defense of the city, it has several thousand more. I think he would have, because that’s in his character, to want to defend his people. Another thing to take into account is that not all of the men would’ve been soldiers (emphasized by the fact that there is stated to be multiple markets and smithies in Gondolin), so they would have more soldiers in them.
@Soulerous: I kinda just skimmed those articles on the Daedra, what exactly do they do (is, what are their powers, etc.)?
I can’t tell much of anything that’s not in the articles. Ogrim regenerate health, winged twilights are resistant to fire, frost, poison, and shock and can reflect spells, xivilai are physically strong and can hurl fireballs, summon clannfears, and are resistant to fire and spells, and spider daedra are very fast and agile, physically strong, immune to paralysis, have a ranged attack, can heal themselves, and summon daedra spiderlings which paralyze opponents.
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Besides that, winged twilights have purple hair that they keep in ponytails. I’m not subscribed to this thread, so anytime I post it’s because I stumbled onto it.
Also, winged twilights have wings…. That they use in the game to fly about two feet above the ground….. but they do still use them to fly…. So…..
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Game mechanic? yes/no?
No, because dragons fly higher. Even if they could, using the current world record, shoot an arrow ≥3,500 meters UP. Imagine what it would be forward.
*Should be “Even if they could, the archers of Gondolin can, using the current world record, shoot an arrow ≥3,500 meters UP. Imagine what it would be forward.”
“No, because dragons fly higher. Even if they could, using the current world record, shoot an arrow ≥3,500 meters UP. Imagine what it would be forward.”
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…You lost me somewhere around “No”… the rest just didn’t make all that much sense….
Oh I see now.
Daedra have the inability to simply “die”. They just get sent back to Oblivion. Also, they don’t have to wait for 100 years like in Forgotten Realms. They naturally have some of the best gear in the game, and usually are carrying some mid-high level potions (at least when I play on hard lol) that can cause invisibility, paralysis, etc. I see no reason why the summoners don’t simply keep spawning reinforcements until the defenders have exhausted their projectiles/food supplies. They pretty much need to get some atronachs to bust the walls in. You kill my Stony? I’ll make another. I don’t really care for this match but the poor demons need some love lol
Should we use game mechanics in regards to summoning then?
In what regards?
What part of “no backups” don’t you understand?
@epicazeroth
“What part of “no backups” don’t you understand?”
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The part where I told you that some of the Daedra could summon other Daedra, and you said “Then well use that, I guess.” and continued with the fight?
…. For real? /Facepalm
all you did was create a perfect siege/war of attrition putting mortals against immortals that can summon over and over. For fuck’s sake….
Rereading my comment, I apologize for my hostility/profanity.
”Thus, it would make sense for him not to send his entire army to the Nirnaeth. Even then, it was stated to be over 10K soldiers. Now, if he left enough men for the defense of the city, it has several thousand more”
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Ok, you’ll have to excuse me for asking, but I only read The Lord of the Rings like one time and it was several years ago. And I never researched or read any of the extra stuff, so where are these numbers coming from exactly? Books, chapters things like that.
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Then beyond that how is the fortress set up if any sort of descriptions are available.
@ptaine: The 10,000 soldiers is from the Silmarillion, chapter: Nirnaeth Arnoediad. The qoute is something like “Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin and marched forth with an army ten thousand strong.”
For the map of Gondolin:
www.councilofelrond.com/albums/Maps/Map_of_Gondolin.jpg
@epicazeroth
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…..Can we get a Mod to delete that?
^ this.
Sweet mother of text walls….
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So how quill the mortals handle endless summons? I’m sure the wizards can go fire a bit for SoT but they get drained correct? The only thing going is that since the daedra can’t summon atronachs (that i’m aware of) they can’t rally breach walls/gates. A siege without siege weapons…. :-\
@PrimusxPilus
” A siege without siege weapons…. :-\”
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I’ve been noticing that myself…
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It’s a bit of a problem.
@Shgon
Not if the besiegers already have enough in the way of supernatural powers to back them up, to begin with.(in general to wit, one Mauve Shirt!-Asha’man is enough to besiege most heavy foritifications a planet’s nation could offer and cause horrific casualties if not outright success if they aren’t destroyed in time, and that’s without Balefire being factored in, to boot!*)
If they don’t have enough natural supernatural powers to pull it off, they can be forgiven for gathering ‘mundane’ siege weaponry, infact.
1.) (I had to use an example, it may as well be from Wheel of Time, if anything!)
You know it weird, even though I don’t think they can win ether, and really their not actually a side in the Vs, I somehow ended up rooting for the Daedra.
@Shgon
You are not alone, when Richard Rahl vs Byakuya Kuchiki was there, I wound up rooting for either Lady GaGa or NKB FallStar Knight’s take on Miss Cousland, in fact.
The more you know, the more you show.
Just imagine if I were to plan out a vs match between in-universe illegal powers and then bring in the pursuers/executioners for the practitioners of either set of illegal powers, in fact.
5 bucks says someone would root for the executioners, much?
@Cross
The asha’man would eventually fall to an unseen arrow or mage. One guy vs an army that’s fortified? There’s be busy blasting the keep to shit think get side swiped by something (arrow, axe, etc.) SoT could focus their mages on him and eventually get him.
@shgon
I’d they had even ONE cultist that could summon a storm atronach they’d win. And I know what you mean. I had to rep them since nobody else was. It is rather silly; a never ending offensive siege force without any way to breach walls versus well fortified mortals that if all else fails will die over time (minus any elves)
” without any way to breach walls”
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To be fair if they have axes, swords and what have you, over time they’d be able to chip away, dig, bash through the stone walls. Unless they’re magically enhanced walls? I mean if a guy with a spoon can dig his way out of a prison, I’m sure a horde with weapons would eventually topple a high wall.
@Primus
I was just naming an example, not necessarily either of the two sides in here in particular(Try to imagine a fortification from one of the factions of Narnia, for instance or something, sure its possible for the besieged faction to find a way to get the Mauve Shirt Asha’man, any idea how many casualties they’ll wind up getting before they succeed, if they can succeed at all, 1st, though?I’m thinking the Telmarines for such an example in particular!) does the clarifications help?
That said, we might need someone to represent the above-noted pursuers/executioners for the Illegal Powers!-match I might be considering at some point, wonder if MessMaker or the Admiral may be up to the task if they wish, though.
@PrimusxPilus
, but then the asha’man could just kill the SoT mages personalty.
“The asha’man would eventually fall to an unseen arrow or mage. One guy vs an army that’s fortified? There’s be busy blasting the keep to shit think get side swiped by something (arrow, axe, etc.) SoT could focus their mages on him and eventually get him.”
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One tied off Air shield to stop any chance of “arrow, axe, etc.”, a weave(fire, instant-death, etc.) on each of the entrances, and Traveling says that it wouldn’t even be that hard for an asha’man to do.
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Results with SoT magic users vary
There’s no Oblivion Gate here. If they die, how do they come back. There’s also nobody to summon more, and also “NO BACKUPS”!!!
@shgon
True but red shirts by definition are dumb shits lol
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@ruliya
True but as they’re attempting the breach, the summons are being attacked by the defenders getting sent back to Oblivion. Tedious method, this.
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-@epic
(nicely) What. The. Fuck.
By your post there should be no attacking force because “lol no portal”. The fucking daedra YOU AGREED TO can summon other daedra UNDER THEIR OWN POWER. They don’t need invitations or portals. Spider daedra (drider knockoff anybody?) Caress themselves and poof! Baby spider. I really don’t see how you couldn’t research something before both suggesting a match with them then the varieties. (you were even provided links bro)
@Primus
Probably less tedious than waiting for them all to die of old age.
” It is rather silly; a never ending offensive siege force without any way to breach walls versus well fortified mortals that if all else fails will die over time (minus any elves)”
-i haven’t seen any reason why either side is destined to die. even if they can re-summon forces(although epicazeroth says no on that) i know that the wizard’s keep magic users have spells that kill hundreds at a time, thousands at a time, and indeterminately more than that(whatever is within a mile diameter dies). along with being able to target specific enemies with guided liquid lava(and that’s playing it down) from a thousand miles away as long as they know their name(and if they have one, zedd can use his wizard’s rock to temporarily summon his parent’s spirit((if that’s not considered backup)), and spirits in sot are practically omniscient).
-not to mention that even if for some reason they get to the keep, they’ll be fighting the first file(mentioned earlier), of whom are D’Hara’s best of the best, most near 7′ tall arnold schwartz looking blond hair blue eyed killing machines. D’Haran soldiers are considered in their world to be the best of the best, the best of the field soldiers have over 100-1 kill to death ratios, the first file is considered to be more elite than them. then, leading them you have Dell Brandstone(Chase) whose most likely better than any of them and has experience fighting large strong fast monsters already.
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-not to mention all the spells that protect the Keep and all the spells that can easily be placed around and inside of it. Nicci whom is in this match, has already shown once that she can place a subtractive magic shield covering miles, and unless the deadra have a way to counteract the antithesis to creation/reality, that’s stopping them permanently right there.
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@PrimusxPilus
-whatever limited the deadra’s ability to enter the world in the game means nothing here, epicazeroth could very well say they were all birthed from that mechanical rhino right after Ace Ventura was if he wanted to.
-outside help not being allowed by the rules includes summoning anything that you don’t literally make on the spot which includes more deadra and even the spirit i mentioned earlier. he didn’t need to research anything, just know the rules of the site.
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“3. Outside Help
No combatant is allowed to call in for aid from an ally not involved in the battle scenario. That does not, however, render any powers or equipment the combatants may have associated with the incarnations used in the scenario null.
For example, Arthas Menethil, the previous World of Warcraft’s Lich King, rules countless legions of undead creatures that follow his every whim. Yet, if the scenario includes only Arthas as a combatant, he may not call onto any of them. This would not, however, prevent him from raising new undead once the battle starts should there be any suitable dead in the scenario.”
@Primus
Not to mention that Mauve Shirts for the record, by general definition, aren’t cakewalks to kill usually, to begin with, right?
@Mike
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“-outside help not being allowed by the rules includes summoning anything that you don’t literally make on the spot which includes more deadra and even the spirit i mentioned earlier. he didn’t need to research anything, just know the rules of the site.”
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No, summoning is allowed(I would say “now” but apparently people were just misreading the rule).
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“My e-mail to admin.
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“Sorry to bother you, but I’ve got a question about rule #3(as the subject of the E-mail says
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According to some if equipment is self aware, then it counts as “outside help” by rule 3, and so can’t be use.
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I don’t agree, but the rule isn’t very clear when it comes to things like living swords, and for that matter stuff like Magic users who channel/invoke the power of others(gods, spirits, etc.), and I’m talking about stuff like clerics who use their gods power, not actually summoning the “others”.
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So I was just wondering if you could clear this question up a little, when you have the time
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Also if I may ask, why does the rule singled out the power to summon things? Why not just say batman can’t call superman, and leave magic powers alone? Not saying you should change it or anything, just wondering why.”
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His answer.
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“The reason Batman can’t just call Superman is that every battle would be a constant one-upping of calling for other help. The point of the matches is to see how Batman could beat Master Chief on his own merit.
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In the case of summoning, unless stated, the characters can use what they typically have. For example, Drizzt typically has Guenhwyvar (his panther) available to him for just about every battle.
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A cleric’s powers are part of what gives them power, so as long as it’s not invoking some God-like summonation to end the fight, those powers should be allowed.”
@epicazeroth
“There’s no Oblivion Gate here. If they die, how do they come back. There’s also nobody to summon more, and also “NO BACKUPS”!!!”
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What PrimusxPilus said, and besides, it after post 50, you need to get a Mod if you want them not to be able to summon.
The point is that if they die, they’re gone. By your logic, no other matches should happen because how would they get there? The Daedra appear, they don’t come back. Have you seen any matches involving Daedra or ES have posts that say “Buh, buh, the Daedra keep coming back, they can’t lose.”? No, and why would that be the case here? Cool, they can summon more Daedra. They can’t come back, that makes NO SENSE.
@shgon dunstan
-that actually doesn’t show summoning is allowed, just sentient things that are usually with them are allowed along with their powers being intact even if the power doesn’t originate from them. summoning things is still not allowed. the superman part mirrors what i have said except it replaces the radio with a summoning spell.
@ruliya. True
@Cross most red shirts are fodder. Not asha’man though
@mike
They don’t have names. Most are caste based, but only the lords have names. No rock. Yeah I know they have firepower that’s why only send in the summoned fodder.
As to summoning: you’re wrong. Shgon has provided the proof. Even then using one’s intellect would show this. I pull a demon from hell under my own power. It should be allowed. But since I didn’t make it from scratch it’s outside help? By that logic Dante gets only his pistols and rebellion because devil arms are demons in weapon form, outside help. Rather silly.
by shgon’s rules there is a wizard’s rock, by the sites rules there are no summoning outside forces. all specifically by the books.
@Mike
“that actually doesn’t show summoning is allowed, just sentient things that are usually with them are allowed along with their powers being intact even if the power doesn’t originate from them. summoning things is still not allowed. the superman part mirrors what i have said except it replaces the radio with a summoning spell.”
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One more time.
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“In the case of summoning, unless stated, the characters can use what they typically have. For example, Drizzt typically has Guenhwyvar (his panther) available to him for just about every battle.”
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I don’t think for a moment that I wont just E-mail admin again if you need it even more clearly spelled out for you.
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The rule says summoning is fine.