Suggested by EnigmaJ
Who wins this match between these two powerful races—
The Q Continuum from Star Trek or the The Time Lords from Dr. Who?
Both are at their peak.
Suggested by EnigmaJ
Who wins this match between these two powerful races—
The Q Continuum from Star Trek or the The Time Lords from Dr. Who?
Both are at their peak.
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They both have amazing feats of power, but the Time Lords are dependent on their technology while I believe those of the Q Continuum have much more individual power. it is also said that the latter cannot be harmed except by weapons designed by members of their own race.
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I’d like to say Time Lords because they are so interesting, but I think the Q-C takes this.
Shitstorm level thread
Because it needs to be asked..
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What are the feats of the Q?
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Not what Q has said he can do.
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Not what he’s boasted or casually implied is possible.
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No “informed ability.” I mean stuff we’ve actually seen on screen. Stuff he obviously has done.
Don’t peak timelords have the ability to trap planets in time?
dejavu…………..I’ve seen this somewhere before.
@Itis
yes, yes they do.
The Q live outside of time in the Q continuum and are effectively immortal, I don’t think a Q ever died once or was killable by mortal means in all of star trek. The Q definitely stomp this, they are all reality benders on a massive scale
I also know the capabilities of the time lords very well, so before you guys say stuff about the Q please look them up and then I think it’ll become very apparent to you as well who takes this. Also the Q can time travel as well and they don’t need machines to do it, they just think and it happens.
never said they would win just they could trap planets in time.
lol Im just referring to future nay sayers
Doubt there will be any, now if this was a Kratos or Dante match you’d have to worry
lol so true, those people are incessant ><
I would like every instant of what you’re claiming cited, please, Crimson. If you have the time, that is.
@Crimson, you have no idea, look at Akuma vs Kratos’s,last few pages……its horrid
@Guardian
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yea I’ve been looking don’t worry, I respect that to convince some people you need hard facts so I got no problem proving them if I can re-find them
@Sauro
I all honesty all my knowledge and extrapolation from the Q comes from watching the series and the star trek wikia page. I know you guys don’t like wikis but the true cannon of the star trek universe if based off the show and some off books, but not much. Here’s a link for you Sauro: en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Q_Continuum, everything on this page has been mentioned at one point on the show, but if you don’t consider extrapolating their powers, then just notice the actual examples they give. They are essentially gods so it’s not really fair to pair them with mortals such as the time lords
And I mean mortals and as in they can be killed, the Q cannot be killed by physical means of any nature
Terrible matchup. Omnipotents Roflstomp non-omnipotents. They would destroy the Time Lords with 1 Q just as easily.
Seriously, there needs to be some review and thought put in before admin posts a match. Im guessing someone paid to see this stomp.
Alright, Q vs. Time Lords. What era are the Time Lords? Rassilon, Humanian Era (the old series), War with the Enemy(books), or Time War? That makes all the difference.
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“Their apparent abilities include moving entire asteroid belts and stars, creating alternate timelines, and affecting universal states of nature such as the gravitational constant.” (from the wiki0
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Time Lords can do all that too, so for those feats at least, they are roughly matched. Time Lords have teleported planets and solar systems (Missing Planet, and they used the same tech that the Daleks did in Stolen Earth). Individual Time Lords have created entire universes, rather above altered time lines. And Time Lords have shields that cannot (canonically, barring more power than the Q possess[IIRC]) be broken.
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What are some feats, not extrapolations, for the Q?
@Tech/Mana – no, they aren’t omnipotent. They can be killed, which by definition means something is more powerful than them. They can have their power TAKEN away, which means something is more powreful than them. And, if all Q are omnipotent, none would be able to hurt the others (Q civil War), because infinite power cannot beat infinite power.
I thought that the Time Lords waged war against the Daleks in all dimensions? that’s gotta be one outstanding feat for this match…
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Proof the Q cannot be harmed by weaponry
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Also, the Time Lords changed the flow of time in the Time War. Causing an infinite Time loop so the Daleks could not escape and do the things like… oh, I don’t know, killing someone before their born? change the outcome of the Time war with their Auto-Reset buttons?
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I believe that one Dalek tried to enter, I believe it was Dalek Kahn? (Khan? Idk…) and it drove the Dalek mad.
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Many times it’s been said that the Time Lords were ‘gods’. They are the master’s of Time and Space.
Kahn went mad when he entered the Moment, which was where the Doctor trapped both in a loop of sorts.
Time Lords also were able to remove magic from their universe if I recall, not sure if that helps or not but….it’s there.
@Draco – Dalek Caan entered, and his mind was opened to the flow of time, giving him effective omniscience in-universe.
I should mention things like altering the gravitational constant are things Q has mentioned he would do. If I recall he cited that he would do this to solve a problem the enterprise was currently suffering. The casual nature of this suggest, combined with how much easier it’d be to just move it, implies he’s a pathological liar. He makes A LOT of claims but we rarely see him act on them. Quinn, as I understand it, since I can’t stand Voyager so I won’t watch that episode, goes on a warpath of mischief at one point, causing all sort of trouble, but if he had even a fraction of a normal Q’s supposed power he’d be doing things like swinging whole galaxies about. They are killed by their own weapons. These weapons cause super novas. One could claim that any attack which can cause super novas could kill a Q, but the fact that it’s subspace makes me suspect differently. Subspace reacts very differently, and it seems a lot less energy is needed to exert on subspace once you figure out how than is needed to get a certain result. Their weapons may simple have a side effect of super novas, but their primary striking power may not be all that high at all. It may be specifically geared to just strike and kill a Q’s “being.” as opposed to “X amount of energy = enough to murder a Q.” While I have no doubt that these Time Lords probably could go about throwing super novas about, I think the trick is figuring out how to hurt a Q on it’s level, as it is beyond the traditional dimensions through which we understand space and time. The Time Lords, with all their slipping between dimensions and realities and shit, though, probably could strike the Q on their level. Looking at it logically.
@Sauroposeidon – Time Lords could kill the Q like Eternals and Chronovores with blasts of the Time Vortex.
@Sauro
“While I have no doubt that these Time Lords probably could go about throwing super novas about, I think the trick is figuring out how to hurt a Q on it’s level, as it is beyond the traditional dimensions through which we understand space and time. The Time Lords, with all their slipping between dimensions and realities and shit, though, probably could strike the Q on their level. Looking at it logically.”
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I believe that the TimeLords could, in fact, with the ability to traverse through all of time and Space.
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Didn’t the TimeLords send Daleks to another dimension With the small Prison pod that held hundreds of thousands of Dalek’s inside of it?
@Sauro – the Time Lords created a dimension to hold the Daleks in. Every TARDIS is its own dimension.
Again since the Time Lords changed the laws of the universe from working on magic to science couldn’t they I don’t know…remove the powers of the Q somehow. I mean altering how the universe works on a fundamental level like that seems pretty reality warpy to me.
Cat’s Cradle: Time’s Crucible, Christmas on a Rational Planet those are the stories that the discussion on the removal of magic occurred in, if anyone has those or can get quotes on it that could help.
I will look, but it is not really all in one place.
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The gist of it is that Rassilon used the last bit of magic (anti-physics, basically) to trap the majority of magic (anti-physics) outside of the mutliverse. THe Eye of Harmony kept it out.
also Q were shown able to execute eachother in True Q so they aren’t truly omnipotent, and a being of sufficient power should be able to kill them or of sufficient tech.
Also in the Voyager episode Death Wish the Q Quinn killed himself by eating hemloch
@GuardianAngel1911 – That feat with Quinn is useless in debates. He was trying to die, so he let himself. We have seen the Q survive the Big Bang(IIRC), so hemloch alone won’t kill them.
*shrugs* just trying to make it less of a stomp.
^ It’s not exactly as stomp, since the Q have no way of actually getting to the Time Lords.
Q for the CR-Award +1
@Shgon Dunstan – Really? Don’t just throw stuff around. Come up with feats, please.
@The Imperator
“Really? Don’t just throw stuff around. Come up with feats, please.”
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Even if the The Time Lords were as powerful as the Q(their not), the The Time Lords have to use technology, the Q just will it, and it is so.
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The Q stomp.
^Yet again, feats please. How are the Q going to do it. The Time Lords’ Transduction Barrier is powerful enough to block universe destroying attacks. The side effects of their weapons caused the universe to convulse. The Q weapon side effects simply caused stars to nova. I don’t think the Time Lords necessarily win, but I would like feats to prove the Q win.
One thing that could sort it out a bit is the fact that for the Time Lords the fancy tricks like locking out magic are considered legendary feats by the Time Lords, whereas everything done by the Q so far (except for stripping another Q of powers which takes a bunch of them working together) any one of them can do without any special preparation or great effort.
@BC: Umm, it took Rassilon ripping a hole in the fabric of the universe and inventing all laws of physics. So yes, it was a one time thing, because there is no way to do it again. They can use the Eye of Harmony to rewrite physics, though, or to cut sections of the universe off from causality. And the second part is from TV show.
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They have shown the ability to move planets and solar systems through space, encapsulate hundreds of thousands of light years in unbreakable shields, erase solar systems from time, time lock virtually anything, fight wars across the space/time, and causing the universe to shake. Time Lords aren’t just going to lose instantly.
I figured that out of 2 super powerful civilization with control over time, space, and reality at least 1 would look at least a little menacing. Seems I was wrong.
This battle would work if people wouldn’t just assume that Q stomps, without posting feats.
@The Imperator
“Time Lords aren’t just going to lose instantly.”
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Whether they do or not, the simple fact is that they would lose this fight even if it was against JUST Q, the fact that it’s against the whole Q continuum means this is a stomp.
“Time Lords aren’t just going to lose instantly.”
-That’s exactly what I was thinking might happen. It’s the point I was making in my first post; Time Lords have some crazy-awesome abilities, but it’s from their technology, right? If they have time to fight back, I think they’d win. I feel that way because the Q don’t have too many straight feats that I’m aware of. They do have personal power, however. If they can act before the Chronarchs can, that’s their most reliable chance at victory.
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Of course, I could be entirely mistaken. I thought it should be brought up.
@Shgon Dunstan: Why? What are the Q going to do? I don’t think the Time Lords will necessarily pull this off, but what has the Q Continuum done that allows them to effortlessly defeat the Time Lords?
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They can’t get in the Transduction Barrier, they can’t change the Time Lords’ time line, and they can’t directly assault Gallifrey. What are they going to do to win?
@Soulerous: As I pointed out, the Time Lords can take as long as they need, since they have a virtually unbreakable shield to sit behind.
The Q can do whatever they wenever they want, just by thought. the only thing that has ever been known to hold back any Q is the Q Continuum it self.
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The Q are gods that do everything they want with nearly no hold backs, no other being or races have ever been known to stop them.
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tl;tr
If it is made of or by a physical object or even pure energy, they can destroy it with just a mer thought.
i just saw all the typos….just read around them please….
What are you talking about? There is nothing else in Trek, except possibly the Prophets, that are above the Q. That doesn’t mean other things are above them. And no, the Q will not be getting through the Transduction Barrier, in that you are sorely mistaken. Please come back with feats and not baseless assumptions. Please prove that the Q would win, and I think they probably would, but I am becoming less sure of it as time goes on, through lack of evidence.
well shit….i never watched Deep Space Nineor anything above that, so I never got to see the Prophets…. i need to go study.
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don’t the timelords use tech to do their things? and what is stoping the Q from teliporting the Transduction Barrier somewhere else? or even the tech that makes the Barrier?
Because the barrier is a wall that separates Gallifrey from all other unvierses. It is its own pocket universe, and stated to not allow in energy, matter, etc. in unless the operators allow it. The weaker version, such as the shields on WarTARDISes, or other small base shields, can block the flow of time, and the WarTARDIS shields can withstand attacks from universe destroying Chronovores, Q level reality manipulators.
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Time Lords can remove themselves from time and survive (books), or collapse universes by ramming two TARDISes together in the right way (TV feat). They do use tech, but their defenses mean nothing short of multiversal reality warpers will stomp them. If Q have the feats they’ll win, though it is almost assured the Time Lords will loose if it is during the breakdown of Time Lord government during the humanian era (1st through 7th Doctor)
the feats are on a epic scale if i must say.
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I see a waiting game. The Q could go into the crossroads of time if the unviers would collapse. and the Timelords could just sit in the barrier…another godlike vs. godlike on Factpile….
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The crossroads thing is smuged by memory. q showed the crew of the enterprize the place where the Q go to “hang out”. somebody else here might know the real name.
“The Q Continuum is an extradimensional plane of existence inhabited by a race of beings known as the Q.”
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found it.
So if this is a deadlock on Purpose, then this is EPIC!!!!
Yup, a perfect example of your average FP debate as of late.
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“Post feats!”
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“I dun wanna!”
@Major ZomB
But if its a deadlock on purpose, it will be beautifully Glorious!
Almost as Glorious as Chubby Starkiller vs Fat Kerrigan, even.
““Post feats!”
“I dun wanna!””
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lol
I thought the Daleks got through the transduction barrier as part of their assault on Gallefrey in the final acts of Time War.
The Q alter reality on a whim with a snap of the fingers. They create people, grant mortality/immortality, take away or give powers as easily as you an I breathe.
They walk trough a warp core, change universal constants…they are redicolously OP
@Tech/Mana: RTD never said how they did it. Either they used the enough energy to destroy several universes, or tthey used an incredibly advanced Anarchitect.
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@Trashman: Time Lords can do all that, they just have mental blocks in place so they don’t turn into the Q. Rassilon knew that it would be bad to end up with ridiculous power and boredom. At least until he went insane during the Time War.
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Time Lord feats (and please, prove the Q can do better than this) – Destroying and disassembling galaxies (Time War interview with RTD), erasing parts of the universe from existence (Time
War interview with RTD), inventing and controlling all universal constants (books), able to observe the entire time line (TV and books and audios), able to resurrect any of their members if they get desperate (the Master was brought back), etc.
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What are some Q feats that put them above that?
@The Imperator
“Time Lords can do all that, they just have mental blocks in place so they don’t turn into the Q.”
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Well aren’t the Q Lucky they have those mental blocks, as it means the Q win.
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(I’ll look on youtube for some feats after I wake up a little, but honestly I’ve just been waiting for a real Trekkie to show up, as they would have a little easier time of it)
@Shgon Dunstan: Just pointing out, some Time Lords actually did ascend. The Celestis removed themselves from time and became living ideas. They then proceeded to rape physics (even more than normal Time Lords).
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I have watched Star Trek, but not enough to be a rabid Trekkie (I used to have Voyager memorized, practically, and I was a rabid anti-Star Wars, anti-Who Trekkie. Then I discovered I liked Doctor Who, and I’ve forgotten most of my rabid Trek knowledge).
The thing is, Shgon, A LOT of us like Trek. TNG is one of my favorite shows. But only the most die hard trek fans really adhere to the Q being as all powerful as Q actually claims. Yes the Q are very powerful, but Star Trek reminds us very often that what we think are the major powers are really ants just building little tiny ant hills in a sand box that true giants play in all the time. The Q are just one of many of these giants, and it’s not an uncommon enough theme in sci-fi for us to not be aware of it. There’s a lot of stuff going on that we never know about, and the Q have proven to us that they’re just as vulnerable as we are sometimes. Despite Q’s boastful claims, we really know very, very little about them.
While I agree most races are ants compared to them I don’t think I could honestly, being a fan of both series (though Doctor Who is my favorite and I can’t deny the bias inherent in that because it’s impossible to deny it), call the Time Lords ants next to anyone considering they and the Daleks fought a war that ended up with the final strategies of both sides being the destruction of the universe/reality for keeps.
My analogy only dealt with the primary factions in Star Trek. The federation, the klingons, the cardassians, the borg, ect. They were the ants I was referring to.
@Sauro
I kind of thought you might have meant within the bounds of Star Trek but you mentioned it being a theme in scifi in general, wasn’t so much meaning your wrong about the Time Lords so much as they are easily in the same tier as the Q, maybe not equal but both are massively powerful races. I guess I should have just out and out said that though to avoid confusion.
@Admiral + Lizard God
So this match is deadlock central, much?
If so, Cool!
The Q would stop anything anywhere. But at the same time they can’t. In the book I,Q (not sure if books are actually allowed for ST) There is said to be another race called the M. The Q claim they were first, and the M claim they were, but they’re said in the book to be as powerful as each other, without re-reading it I can’t remember if they could kill each other or not, I think they couldn’t.
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As to the voyager episodes and the Q weapons, what most people tend to forget is they aren’t really weapons at all. Indeed, the whole continuum, the Q’s themselves are merely displaying themselves in a way that the (primitive – Q’s words[though he could have said puny]) human minds can comprehend (and not have their head explode). So we don’t really know quite what a Q is, and it is that non-corporeal entity type make up of the Q which makes them unable to be killed.
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To Quinn dying of hemlock, that was after the continuum accepted the judgement of euthanasia and made him mortal, and hemlock is lethal to mortal beings, hence why he died.
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In that episode, Quinn, in an attempt to kill himself made all the men disappear from existence, and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t just the men on voyager, it was all men, everywhere in all universes and dimensions (or at least in ST’s main universe). So by changing “men” to “timelord” it’s feasible to think that the Q could just think them out of existence.
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Imperator you’re going to have to prove (as you brought it up) that the Timelord shield would actually be able to stop the Q, as it isn’t a weapon, isn’t a beam, and attack or anything, it’s a literal thought. Like Wanda saying “no more mutants” Q could nonchalantly say “no more timelords” and click his fingers.
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@ Saura, the way Q told Geordie and Data to “change the gravitational constant of the universe” seemed more like, to a Q, it was just as simple as moving the asteroid, rather than being him just being a “pathological liar”. While it’s true he is portrayed as a trickster like Loki, in that particular instance, where he himself is now powerless, but still retaining his vast knowledge, seems like he’s trying to give them, to what seems to him, a simple enough solution. Which is why when Data informs him that they can’t do that Q seems dejected:
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GEORDI
Q, I’ve got a few people down on
Bre’el Four who are gonna be hurt
if we don’t…
Q
(interrupting)
Yes, with your marvelous plan,
you will not only tear the moon
to pieces… but your precious
ship as well.
GEORDI
You have a better idea… ?
Q
I would certainly begin by
examining the cause and not the
symptom.
GEORDI
We’ve done that, Q… and there’s
no way to determine…
Q
This is obviously the result of
a large celestial object passing
through at near right angles to
the plane of the star system…
probably a black hole…
DATA
Can you recommend a way to counter
the effect?
Q
Simple. Change the gravitational
constant of the universe.
GEORDI
(reacts)
What… ?
Q
Change the gravitational constant
of the universe. And thereby
alter the mass of the asteroid…
GEORDI
Redefine gravity. How am I
supposed to do that?
Q
You just do it. Where is that
doctor anyway… ?
DATA
Geordi is trying to say that
changing the gravitational
constant of the universe is beyond
our capabilities.
Q
Oh. In that case, never mind.
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Now I know it was said that the Timelords can change gravity too, I wonder it would be achieved as easily as the Q could do it.
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I’ll try to keep up with this thread and debate for the Q as best I can, to try and make it a little more even.
The major powers in Dr.Who would be things like the Sontarens (sp?), The Silence, and Cybermen, who are ants to things like Daleks and Time Lords of course.
@ Ruliya
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Q obviously knows they can’t do that. He was just being a jerk. Doing what he says would cause the whole universe to go out of whack. Q knows full well what would happen if he actually did something like that, and EVERYONE would notice. The Q to that point hadn’t done anything stupid like that on a whim, let alone him, and if it were with in his power it certainly wouldn’t be the first thing he’d of thought to do. There are so many other options that don’t fuck a whole universe up. It seems to me that he said the first super powerful awe inspiring thing he could think of to say for the attention. All he wants is attention, really, because he’s bored. It’s the defining trait of his character. He’s a jerk ass bored god looking for a way to kill time and some attention. Preferably the kind that makes him feel superior. I also don’t see why transporting all the men away would be any greater than popping an entire starship across the galaxy as he did to “warn” us of the Borg. Moving things around didn’t seem too difficult for Q, why should it for Quinn?
@Ruliya: It is a field that makes Gallifrey its own pocket universe. As in, everything in it is disconnected from outside reality, unless the Time Lords lower it. It can stop particles that are akin to the Arcturus Project particles from Stargate (Apocalypse Element), it cuts off Gallifrey’s past from being connected with time (books, don’t remember how many, but a lot), and Chronovores (universe eating, time line devouring reality warpers) cannot get into the cheap ship based version of the Transduction Barrier. When the Q are able to devour universes and time lines like food, come back to me. The Great old Ones, beings whose language rewrote the universe when spoken, considered the Time Lords a threat (White Darkness), indicating they couldn’t just erase the Time Lords.
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Also, could EnigmaJ define height. Is it a composite of all the most powerful eras of Time Lords, or just Time War, or just War with the Enemy? Do the Time Lords get all their engineered weapon species?
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If Rassilon gets resurrected, this battle becomes even more fun.
^Height of power, is what I meant. Or what era are these Time Lords from?
You’ll have to forgive me, I have only a passing enjoyment of SG, what do the Arcturus Project particles do? Is that the things that can destroy parallel universes?
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Just because it’s in a pocket universe doesn’t mean the Q can’t reach them, though I’m having a hard time thinking of a way to prove it via TV show feats. I’d have to do a little bit more research, though as I’m going out later it’ll probably have to be tonight or tomorrow.
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Would the Q locking the timelords in their own pocket universe be a viable win-scenario? (Just curious)
@Ruliya: Arcturus Particles are reality changing particles. They change physics. The Doctor Who particles is called the Apocalypse Element, and it literally burns away all dimensions lower than the 6th dimension, and all energy and matter.
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The Transduction Barrier cuts off Gallifrey from all external influences. It is like a giant steel/concrete bubble around a house. Virtually nothing would be able to punch through it. If it does actually get turned off all the way, Gallifrey could explode (Invasion of Time episode), which is why it is doubtful that the Daleks brute forced their way on to Gallifrey.
@Sauro
we’ll have to wait and see about the Silence’s real place in Doctor Who hierarchy and by them I mean the order not the Aliens in Black guys with memory wipe powers. They may have further reaching power than has yet to be seen. But yeah the Daleks and Time Lords are the true big fish in that pond. That we know of of course. As they say, there’s always a bigger fish, and the Doctor still has regenerations to go. Who knows what we’ll see show up.
It doesn’t matter how strong and impenetrable the shield is, the Q don’t have to bust through it. They just have to think, or in the case of Q, click his fingers too and the Timelords are kaput.
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Proving this to be the case however may take some time xD
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I don’t know the AP, where they in the final seasons of SG? the FarscapeGate series? I never really saw those.
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Though I’m not seeing anything the Timelords can do to actually injure the Q. Even if they managed to take one down (and that’s a huge IF) We have no actually knowledge of the size of the continuum, there could be billions or trillions of Q for all we know, or there could be just a few hundred thousand.
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Are we able to use ST:EU for this? Last time I was on a ST thread (ST Vs SW) there was a whole thing about cannon, and whatever, so I just thought I’d ask again here, for clarity.
@Ruliya: No, they can’t just think the barrier away. Plenty of beings in Who have that power (Great Old Ones, Guardians[Who admittedly can get into the barrier, but they are so far above the Q level begins of the Whoverse as to think of those beings as ants], and other high tier reality warpers), and are enemies of the Time Lords, but haven’t removed the Barrier. And you would have to prove that the Q could take down a barrier that turns a section of the universe into a hole, as in, that section of the universe is not there anymore, it is inside its own universe, like every TARDIS is. And it is up to you to prove that the Q are greater than universe eaters/destroyers, and the ST EU would actually hurt that claim (they are scared of the universe being destroyed in Q & A)
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Star Trek EU is officially not canon, but if EnigmaJ allows it, it can be used for this debate. The BBC has no canon policy, so all material is allowed for Doctor Who in debates.
The Arcturus Particles are from Stargate Atlantis.
It’s funny you mention Q&A it’s one of the few I’ve read of late. In I,Q the Q actually want the universe to end and so do nothing, (though I think it’s stated they could end it with a thought, but don’t – it’s a good book, I might reread it and see) but Q (John De Lanice) gets Picard and Data’s help to stop it from ending.
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So I can understand your saying it might hurt the Q, because it shows they can’t do everything, but then TV feats are really very limited. But until enigma says otherwise I’ll work on the cannon assumption of TV only then.
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I watched Atlantis a fair while ago, that might be why I don’t remember it off the bat.
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I’d need more info on the Old Ones and Guardians and their abilities to see if they are on the same level as the Q. Have they tried to just “think” the Timelords out of existence? Just because they can’t doesn’t mean the Q can’t, that’s an association fallacy if I remember correctly.
Quantum Mnemonics – “Quantum mnemonics, the dark science of an earlier race of
Time Lords, made block transfer computation seem like a
conjuring trick. With just a few words, a practitioner of their
great art could grasp the basic nature of reality around the
throat and shake it into a new configuration. A bon mot of
quantum mnemonics could bring about a premature death, or a
run of good luck. A sentence could transform a planet’s history
and destiny, changing a world of barbaric war into an elysium.
And a carefully constructed paragraph could rewrite the
entire universe. Or destroy it utterly.”
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Chronovores – “According to the council’s ruling, the Chronovores were
nothing but vampires: subsisting on the primal energies of the
Six-Fold Realm, only truly living by drawing the life essence
from the moments of choice, where they could thrive on the
what-ifs and the what-might-have-beens, keeping this cosmos
alone in the multiverse. An empty existence, a life of
loneliness.”
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They are tasked with keeping the Multiverse a certain size. That’s a ton of power.
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“Elektra and Prometheus remained silent: there was nothing
to say, nothing to do. Together, the Guardians could bend
reality, fashion space and time to their whims. To them, a
Chronovore and an Eternal were insects – less than insects.”
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Those Chronovores are ants compared to the Six-Fold God, who are able to bypass Gallifrey’s Barrier, but they haev quite a bit more power shown than the Qs.
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The Master thinks to himself that thousands of Chronovores are still enough to take down his WarTARDIS, which means less then that would not be able to take out his shields.
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The Eternals can create matter (they created a quasar in one of the Bernice Summerfield novels, and if this is Gallifrey after Romana takes over, the even Eternals and Chronovores can’t get into the Barrier.
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“‘Imagine the multiverse – the totality of all possible universes
– as a garden. The multiverse has to be tended, nurtured… and
pruned. Parallel universes are a fact of life – quantum
uncertainties lead to Jonbar hinges and then the universe
diverges, buds. But the overwhelming majority of these buds
rapidly rejoin their primary universe, nanoseconds later.
However, there are occasions when buds diverge from that
primary reality very quickly. They possess enough
dimensional momentum to achieve escape velocity – they
become important.
‘These parallel universes branching off from the primary
are considered to be weeds in the garden, an infestation that
must be cleared.’
‘Why?’ asked Mel. ‘Remember, I’m the only nontemporal
scientist in the room, Doctor. What harm do they do? It’s not
as if they’re going to run out of space, is it?’
A good point – and Arlene was a temporal scientist. She
could just about remember listening to Stuart’s entertaining
lectures about parallel universes. Except that they had been
Ruth’s lecture, hadn’t they?
The Doctor smiled warmly at Mel. ‘No, but there appears
to be a possibility that they will run out of reality.’ He held up
his hands. ‘And I’m not sure how or why, either. But these
parallel realities are considered to be a threat, and, like weeds,
they are pruned, weeded out.
‘And the Chronovores are the gardeners.’”
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the Guardians are in charge of everything, in the multiverse, though they are not close enough to omnipotence to be all powerful.
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Alrigh, back to what the Time Lords can do. They can destroy beings that are like the Q by shooting blasts of artron/Temporal energy at them, erasing their time lines.
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And if Rassilon gets resurrected, the Time Lords have universe collapsing weapons. And Rassilon’s TARDIS is bigger than thousands of AUs, he could fit Gallifrey in it, and but the barrier over his TARDIS, and still be able to fit all the clone Gallifrey’s, all with their own Barriers, into it and put them over his ship. What else do you want quotes of.
The problem is, that within the constraints of the TV series, it’s hard to find feats for the Q. It is alluded to that they can do anything. Which is a no limits fallacy I guess. I’m pretty sure the Q can do everything you’ve listed above as easily as we breathe air.
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But the point of these debates, is to prove this is so, and I’m not sure I can. You say the Timelords can destroy beings like the Q, yet we don’t really know what the Q are exactly. What beings do they destroy with blasts of temporal energy?
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Though I would think the Q would be immune to time line erasing or whatever. If it were to happen, another Q could simply bring them back.
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I’m going to have to go watch Q episodes again xD I’m sure there are some quotes there, I just have to find them.
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Again, I don’t think the timelords have anything that can hurt the Q, let alone kill them. Killing something like a Q, isn’t killing a Q in and of itself, now is it?
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But I have to head out now, so we’ll have to continue this later. I have a lot to think on xD
Well, I’m new to Factpile and on my phone, but I’ll try my best.
Now Imperator brought up the Chronovores, which reminded me of the Transduction Barrier. I don’t really know the full extent of Q’s powers, but Gallifrey’s barrier seems rather… well… Indestructible. From what I remember, The transduction barrier creates a separate universe in which Gallifrey ( and later Skaro) resided in. It was controlled by the Timelords, who could “filter” anything that tried to pass.
So do they get that? Maybe more when I get off my phone.
Yeah, you are right. Killing something like a Q doesn’t mean killing a Q. The thing is, if we take Q dialogue, you have to take the Transduction Barrier quotes that say nothing can do anything to it unless the Time Lords allow it. And if the Time Lords figure out the Q’s dimension, they can drop an Armageddon Sapphire into it collapsing that dimension/universe. See, if we use Dialogue, as long as it doesn’t contradict any actual feats, the Q can’t touch the Time Lords.
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@Internal Auditor: Yeah, you got that right.
@Ruliya: The Transduction Barrier is not a simple shield. It is the boundary of another universe, so it’s not really possible to just teleport the Barrier away.
@The Imperator
“The Transduction Barrier is not a simple shield. It is the boundary of another universe, so it’s not really possible to just teleport the Barrier away.”
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And of course you have proof that the Q can’t?
What are they teleporting. The shield and Eye of Harmony are linked, you can’t move one without moving the other. And the Eye is inside a pocket dimension, inside Gallifrey, which is inside a pocket dimension. If they do teleport it, it would come right back. Give a feat of the Q teleporting something like the Transduction Barrier, if you want to go by feats. If not, if we want to go by not contradictory dialogue, the Transduction Barrier is stated to be immovable, unchangeable, etc.
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Oh, and just a thought. When a Q is cut off from the Continuum, it loses its power, correct? Then if a Q is captured inside the Transduction Barrier, it could theoretically lose its power?
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Also, you can’t assume that the Q’s abilities will work on something like the Transduction barrier, something that never showed up in Trek, while saying the methods used to kill Q like beings won’t work.
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And EnigmaJ, do the Time Lords get all their engineered weapons? And is this composite Time Lords, or a specific era?
Canon materials for both sides.
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As for “height”, I didn’t mean composites, I meant use an era where the Time Lords are at their best defensively/offensively, aka, an era where they are relatively populous and have most of their toys. If such an era doesn’t exist, then that just gives you more freedom to choose the era you think is most likely to win. Does this clear things up, or… no?
I don’t think a Q has ever been cut off from the continuum. They’ve always had their powers removed.
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I’m not sure what trek barrier could compare. I don’t think it’s a case of moving or breaking the barrier, more like being able to ignore it completely.
Yes, that makes sense, thank you. Do feats or dialogue reign supreme?
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Alright, so I will break down my opinion, based on feats.
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Early era Time Lords fail miserably, as they don’t have all the high tech goodies. War in Heaven Time Lords stalemate or win. Time War Time Lords win with the Final Sanction.
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@Ruliya: Going by feats, the Barrier cannot be ignored. Same with dialogue. And I don’t trust dialogue from Q, who claimed to be omnipotent and omniscient… Which are so blatantly false it’s funny. Omniscience is stupid, especially once Voyager and kidQ are brought into it. Omnipotence is shown to be false throughout Voyager. I don’t trust what Q says, especially since he has been known to lie, quite a bit, before.
Q restart the Universe without the Time Lords.
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“Omnipotence is shown to be false throughout Voyager.”
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…How?
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“I don’t trust what Q says, especially since he has been known to lie, quite a bit, before.”
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Proof? Isn’t he just a trickster?
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Another problem: how are the Time Lords even going to hurt the Q? I mean, the forms we see them in are the only way mortal minds can comprehend them. I believe the only thing that ever hurt a Q (besides a Q) is when one nigh-omnipotent combined with another and became “more than infinite”.
@Aelfinn: They are proved non-omnipotent when some die in Voyager, in the Civil War. Also, if they were omnipotent, then they could never have their power taken.
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And proof that the Q could restart the universe? When did he ever show that much power. The gravitational constant thing is obviously false, since it would cause every planet in the universe to become destabilized in their orbits, either flying away from suns or crashing into suns. So please, proof through feats, or non-contradictory dialogue, that the Q could restart the multiverse?
Barring Death Wish Voyager fucked up the Q like they fucked up the Borg.
That should be a period at the end of the last sentence.
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Ruliya, it’s still canon, just like those stupidTime Lords from the late era of OldWho.
“And proof that the Q could restart the universe?”
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Last episode of TNG. Q determines that humanity should not exist, so he causes the Universe to do some doo-hicky that would restart the Universe without humanity. He gives Picard a chance to stop this by allowing him to live in three times of his life, past, present, and future. He flies a version of each Enterpise to the doo-hicky, where they all use technobabble to stop it.
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“They are proved non-omnipotent when some die in Voyager, in the Civil War.”
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It was stated that their omnipotency canceled each others’ out, effectively making them non-omnipotent.
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“The gravitational constant thing is obviously false,”
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If someone is strong enough to change the gravitational constant of the Universe, they can handle the effects of that. Not to mention that if all the gravity was changed proportionally, then there may be no effects.
@Aelfinn
I thought that the anomally was at first a paradox caused by the whole three enterprises at different points at the same spot using that one scanner beam or something
could be wrong though
“I thought that the anomally was at first a paradox caused by the whole three enterprises at different points at the same spot using that one scanner beam or something
could be wrong though”
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It was Q.
Q likes humanity. He’s gone out of his way to protect it by giving them every advantage he could with out suffering the wrath of his fellow Q. He was never really going to wipe them out all of a sudden. It was just him playing more games with Picard for attention. That’s all he ever does “Oh I’m dangerous, oh I’m powerful, look at me, look at me.”
Memeory Alpha says that in All Good Things…, Q said he didn’t create the anomaly. The whole point of the episode is that the anomaly was caused by three different points in the time line trying to scan something, and it created a paradox that allowed anti-time to flow into the universe. Anti-time is something the Time Lords know how to bottle up and use.
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The Omnipotent thing is blatantly false. If they all have infinite, than none should be able to cancel out the other, since their power would keep going to match. And no weapon, regardless of who made it, would be able to hurt them, since they have would have enough power to survive it.
are you sure, cause I’m looking at the summary right now and it says the “he discovers the anomaly has appeared, created as a result of his orders, and the tachyon pulses from the three eras are sustaining it”
and I think I remember Q saying that the anomaly never existed