Suggested by Sauroposeidon
On a battlefield littered with the bones and cracked armor of the dead and dying, a lone Dreadnought of the Imperium of Man stands, smoke rising off it from plasma scorch marks, paint burned but nothing more. It’s own body as still as the countless corpses around it while it surveys the carnage. The thunder of cannons in the distance is hardly noticeable, and above in a red lit sky, the burning hulk of a Manta carves through the thick smoke, pouring flames feed rivers of black soot back in to the smothered sky. As the doomed vehicle passes over head, causing the very ground to shake, a single entity jumps for it, the sole survivor of whatever brought the great vehicle down. Landing hard after a drop that was just a bit too far, a Tau Broadside crouches slightly to stabilize itself.
As it rises back in to a proper posture, the veteran fire caste warrior turns its head and catches sight of the Dreadnought, just over 500 meters away. Beyond the hill strewn hellscape of their battlefield, well behind the Dreadnought, a phenomenal explosion lights the area briefly as the Manta finally makes impact. Even as the Tau beholds his new enemy, the behemoth machine turns it’s entire torso towards him, framed by the gusting winds of the Manta’s blast, buffeting the Dreadnought with dust and sand.
The ancient warrior permanently housed inside brings the Broadside in to its field of view and recognizes it in the distance as the enemy immediately. Between them lay a cratered field of blasted and flattened hills, with the rubble of shattered buildings providing occasional cover. Fires burn here and there, providing thick pillars of smoke cover that twist and writhe to the whims of the wind.
Which of these phenomenal machines of war comes out of this duel the victor?
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What kind of weaponry do both sides have for this fight?
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Either way the Broadside has a mobility edge with its flight
Sauro,
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Let me start by giving kudos on the great scene for this battle. One of the better ambiance debates we’ve seen on the site.
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That being said, the scenario needs a foot-note with the battle’s stats. As it stands right now all we know is that they are 500m appart, and are undamaged (fresh for battle). We do not know their weapons, equipment, suit version, chapter/caste, etc. Pretty important points to know if we are to have a propper debate.
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If I am to assume everything is “vanilla”, this goes to the Broadside fairly easily.
Stomp, Broadside Battlesuits are equipped with Railguns, the ground weapons the Tau use to take out Monoliths….
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One volley should have have no problems taking out a Dread of any kind. Unless the Dread can get a shot off quicker if he’s armed with a lascannon or plasma cannon, he really has no chance of winning. Thankfully for the dread Battlesuit armor isn’t as hard as his own…
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On the bright side the scenario’s not a bad read.
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Unfortunately this is the exact role the Broadside is made for, and even worse, it has a clean shot the moment it sets down.
I intentionally left their armaments unmentioned so that I could adjust what they have to make the fight most fair. I’ve actually tried looking up which machine would be able to take on the other with absolutely no results. I could always go by game numbers but that seemed like a bad idea. So you guys can blame google failing me for my requesting this match. I intentionally gave the Dreadnought a ton of cover it can immediately make use of. I also figured even if the Broadside can get off a a shot right off the bat, with all the blasting wind, ground shaking, and the extreme reflexes of the Dreadnought’s pilot, the shot could perhaps be turned in to a glancing blow, or a non-immediate kill shot or something along those lines. A shot which shreds off the shoulder armor would do little more than cosmetic damage since there’s no lighter units around to capitalize on the exposed joint. I also assumed 500 meters was with in the Dreadnought’s attack range, but with just enough range to give a slight edge to the Broadside, since the Dread has so much cover it can make use of.
“I intentionally left their armaments unmentioned so that I could adjust what they have to make the fight most fair. I’ve actually tried looking up which machine would be able to take on the other with absolutely no results. I could always go by game numbers but that seemed like a bad idea. So you guys can blame google failing me for my requesting this match. I intentionally gave the Dreadnought a ton of cover it can immediately make use of. I also figured even if the Broadside can get off a a shot right off the bat, with all the blasting wind, ground shaking, and the extreme reflexes of the Dreadnought’s pilot, the shot could perhaps be turned in to a glancing blow, or a non-immediate kill shot or something along those lines. A shot which shreds off the shoulder armor would do little more than cosmetic damage since there’s no lighter units around to capitalize on the exposed joint. I also assumed 500 meters was with in the Dreadnought’s attack range, but with just enough range to give a slight edge to the Broadside, since the Dread has so much cover it can make use of.”
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The Dread has so many options depending on its chapter that we really cannot have a debate without you stating what its equipment is. Range will be VERY dependant on whatever weapon(s) it has. Same goes for its ability to make use of cover and general movement. Even if we went with regular Vanilla Dread, the combinations possible are quite vast. Is it regular, Venerable, or Ironclad? Does it have Extra Armour? Did it replace its DCCW for a Missile Launcher or an TL Autocannon? Is the main weapon a TL HFlamer, TL HBolter, TL Autocannon, TL Lascannon, Plasma cannon, or Assault cannon? And we are not even talking about Dreads from specific chapters.
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The broadside does not have nearly as many options as the Dread, but it does have a few that could be equally impacting. So…
@sauro
. Keep in mind the broadsides greatest tool is it’s mobility compared to the dread, so the dreads weapons will greatly affect how effective it is against a mobile opponent.
Give us a chapter to base the dread off of then we can get to debating
Sorry for off-topic, but Mata, is there a page somewhere on this site or the ‘topia detailing how to do what you just did to your text ( italics, bold, hyperlinks, etc. )?
I would encourage you to give it extra armor a muiti-melta and a lascannon, then I think the competition would be very close
“Sorry for off-topic, but Mata, is there a page somewhere on this site or the ‘topia detailing how to do what you just did to your text ( italics, bold, hyperlinks, etc. )?”
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I know there is, but I’ll be damned if I know where I put it…
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However, this page has all you may need as it goes over the tags that are accepted in WP. To me its a trial an error thing. Many of the tags they claim to be accepted have always failed for me. have fun with it, though.
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“I would encourage you to give it extra armor a muiti-melta and a lascannon, then I think the competition would be very close
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An Ironclad Dread w/ 2 Hunter-killers would be very defenssive making the most use out of cover and still be quite lethal as it could move in for assault through heavy terrain, fire its missiles, and lock a deadly charge or just hope for a Melta Instant Death shot. On the other hand, a Venerable Dread w/ Extra Armour and 2 TL Autocannons could spell doom for the Broadside by out-shooting it with 4 long-ranged S7 attacks that reroll to hit at a BS:5. Note that the venerable could also opt to have a Lascanon and a TL Autocannon. That would be potentially worse as it can land a OHKO. Only cover would save the broadside from that doom.
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Again, this is just vanilla dreads.
Thanks Mata, ‘just what I was looking for.
@EJ – Anytime, brothaman.
well at 500m the broadside will just win instantly, it’s armed with a pair of Tau railguns which pack enough punch to kill far larger machines than the Dreadnought.
Based on the picture alone the Dreadnought is equipped with an assault cannon which has less than one fourth of the range of the railgun and not nearly enough penetrating power to hurt the Broadside reliably.
The battlefield favors the Broadside as well, the poor visiblity wont be a problem at all for any tau battlesuit due to the built in blacksun filters and target tracking software. The terrain on the battlefield doesn’t offer fair cover for the dreadnought either it’ll have to work it’s way over the edge of the craters where the battlesuit will simply blast through the dirt or wait for the dreadnought to peek over.
The Broadside battlesuit is unique amoung Tau battlesuits due to it’s lack of jet thrusters, it has to walk to where it wants to be and cant fire it’s weapons while running unless it’s been upgraded with the advanced stabalizers.
If the Dreadnought could get into melee range with the Broadside it would win in a single epic punch but 500 metres is a long way to run with railguns shooting at you.
Would it not be best to use either the weakest/most basic versions of either mech, or the strongest and most well-equipped versions?
Weakest Dread vs weakest Broad is a stomp. The Dread needs particularly effective loadout to be able to do anything to the Broad. A Venerable dread has survivability and is able to deliver great firepower in return, While an Ironclad Dread is more maneuverable and will be able to make most use of valuable terrain versus an oponent that has all the advantages in firepower.
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In my humble opinion, Ironclad Dread w/ 2 HK missiles and Ironclad Launchers would be the best matchup here. It can close the distance while remaining out of sight by moving through all sorts of advantageous terrain. The Broad would be forced to be on the move itself, unable to make use of its deadly rails efficiently. Other Dreads would just be fodder in this scenario.
“The Dread has so many options depending on its chapter that we really cannot have a debate without you stating what its equipment is. ”
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Then the first stage of the discussion will be what’s the best option for the Dreadnought to even this match up? If an Ironclad Dread w/ 2 HK Missiles and Ironclad Launchers is best then that’s what we should go with.
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“Based on the picture alone the Dreadnought is equipped with an assault cannon which has less than one fourth of the range of the railgun and not nearly enough penetrating power to hurt the Broadside reliably.”
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I picked images which would have the two machines turned to face each other with their guns aiming at each other while still in a pose that showed off their visual features, pretty much.
@Sauro
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That Ironclad settup is my opinion. I am not 100% it would indeed be best, though. I only favor the Ironclad because it can be the more stealthy of the vanilla Dreads. The scenario is giving it a ton of rubble and terrain to avoid the lethal rails. The Broad will be forced to either be on the move, or remain in possition and attempt to clear the Dread’s cover.
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Now, I do not recall the Broad upgrades as well as I recall the Dread’s. Can someone point out what options the Broad has from the current codex?
Personally backing the broadside. One railgun can go through both sides of a leman russ with enough speed to suck the crew out the exit hole. The broadside has two of them.
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Glancing through it the applicable entries are:
-Twinlinked plasmarifle or fusion blaster for weapons
-I kinda expect advanced stabilization system and blacksun filter to be standard
-Multi-tracker could be useful though I’m not sure how the game mechanics translate. In game it lets the thing fire 2 weapons in 1 turn. I’m doubtful a fluff anything wouldn’t be able to fire 2 weapons at once so it might just improve accuracy or something.
-Defensively there’s a shied generator, feel no pain granting stimulant injector, a shield drone, and a stealth generator.
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Not as many or as impactful options as the dread, but the base railguns are more than powerful enough to make up for it.
Doesn’t the broadside have to setup to use the railguns effectively? or am I full of bs?
The broadside’s rail guns, if I recall, are smaller than the hammerhead’s rail gun, which is the one with that “sucking the crew out” reputation, isn’t it?
Can you guys compare the statistical values from the tabletop?
Not having the Tau codex I am not sure of the Broad’s functionality, but as far as I can recall, the suit has to remain stationary for it to be able to fire the Railguns. What I don’t remember with clarity is if the fluff mentioned they had to “deploy” to fire or if that was just a Dawn of War mechanic to mimmic not being able to fire them on the move. Also, I don’t remember if they could fire both weapon systems without the extra hard-point used for that purpose.
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Need to get my grubby paws on the current Tau codex…
I ask this because then we can compare if the broadsides railguns have the same effectiveness and penetration as to those of the hammerhead gunship. Then we can determine the effectiveness on the various arsenals against one another. Since we are using generic models I think it is fine to bring in stats since fluff varies so wildly from one generic unit type to another.
there is one on scribd if you want to view it
The Tau default out as superior at range, inferior in close combat.
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If the Dreadnought can close to its effective range under cover, it can win … but I’d assume the Broadside will move to a point with the least cover/best lines of fire around it in order to maximize it’s ranged capabilities.
The Broadside can’t fire on the move by default, but of course by standard any Tau player with half a brain would give their Broadside team an Advanced Stabiliser System, which gives them the Slow and Purposeful Rule. This means they can fire after moving (Relentless special rule) but they have to take a dangerous terrain test.
It can also have targeting locks or targeting arrays, which simply boosts its chances of gutting the Dreadnought in a single hit.
Plus it can take shield drones, which laugh at the Dreadnought’s ranged attacks, and no it doesn’t have to set up to blow the Dready to little pieces.
And if that wasn’t enough it also has a default Smart Missile System.
So if we’re using the “standard” Broadside, (ie, the one any player who isn’t pants on head retarded would take) it would have an ASS and shield drones definitely, and an optional plasma rifle set or Target Arrays.
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Simply put, the Dreadnought has no chance.
imo this match depends on exactly one thing.
can the dreadnaught stay out of direct line of sight long enough to bring its weapons to bare?
if not, then taustomp. otherwise it is pretty much first shot wins.
Since dreads are so slow couldn’t the Broadside just dance around it and drive it out of cover by staying back and circling around behind it?
Well since it can fly too, I don’t see why it couldn’t just keep at long range where it has the advantage
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Plus, dem railguns which can punch clean through Leman Russ armor would suffice to down the Dread
You guys are all wrong. The Broadside is the slow heavy artillery unit of the Tau Empire. It lacks jetpacks or speed of any kind.
The battlesuit you are thinking of is the XV8 Crisis Battlesuit, which is equipped with lighter weaponry but has a jetpack for increased mobility.
The XV88 Broadside Battlesuit is the heavily armoured, heavily armed version which sacrifices speed for its anti-tank railguns.
Hmm, good point, just looked it up and you’re right
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But it still has dem railguns and either twin linked plasma rifles or twin linked missile lauchers
“The broadside’s rail guns, if I recall, are smaller than the hammerhead’s rail gun, which is the one with that “sucking the crew out” reputation, isn’t it?”
In seriousness, I’m not sure why it’s even optional. Even the description says all Tau weapons and battlesuits have it.
“Can you guys compare the statistical values from the tabletop?”
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They’re the same weapon in game. Eyeballing proportions they aren’t much smaller than the hammerheads if they are smaller at all.
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“So if we’re using the “standard” Broadside, (ie, the one any player who isn’t pants on head retarded would take) it would have an ASS”
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DAYUUM I WOULD TAP THAT!
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Nother thing to add, those smart missiles the broadside packs by default can not only be fired on the move, they can shoot you around cover.
Do we have any info on the smart missile’s destructive capability?
Ok. Slow down, folks. Most of you are jumping the gun without really looking things up.
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First, like Maelstrom said, Broadside and Crisis are two diferent loadouts. The later is the more manouverable one. If this fight was against a Crisis, it would have a major advantage in terms of terrain and wargear options. The fight, however, is for the former battlesuit.
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Broadsides have two twin-linked weapon systems. It has the two trademark railguns, and either a smart missile system or twin-linked plasma rifles. The missiles will be doing nothing to an Ironclad Dread, so it is better to give it the plasmas as those may have a chance to do something. In addition, they have a single hard-wire support option. SINGLE. That means that this Broadside cannot have ALL the support items you all have been mentioning at once. It can have only one. Those are…
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- Blacksun Filter: Does nothing in this fight.
- Drone Controller: Gives the Broad two drones. This one could have an impact.
- Advanced Stabilization System (ASS): Lets the Broad shoot the Rails on the move. This one is a major one.
- Shield Generator: Gives the suit a 4+ Invulnerable save. Another major one.
- Multitracker: Lets the suit fire both of its weapon systems instead of just one as its normally the case. Decent option, but not better than the other ones.
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So where does that put the Broad?
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The shield generator is an option that shouldn’t be overlooked. The Ironclad has a meltagun that could spell an insta-death doom for the Broad. However, it it not the better option in my opinion.
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The Multitracker is nice as it would let the broad fire the Rails once, and possibly fire the Plasmas twice in one turn when the Ironclad gets a bit too close for comfort. But the Plasmas will be having only a 1 in six chance of doing glancing damage on an Ironclad Dread. I wouldn’t waste the one support option it has on this.
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The ASS is by far the best option for the Broad in this particular scenario. It would let it be on the move against a movement specialist walker and still be able to fire its Rails which, make no mistake about it, is what the Broad wants to always do. Not using this means firing its lethal guns with its crappy BS:3 onto heavy cover and still let a close combat specialist to narrow the gap too quick for comfort.
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Shield controler is an interesting option as it would allow the Broad to grab two marker drones, or a shield drone and a marker drone. Marker drones would make the sacrifice of not having the ASS worth it as it would make those Rail shots count. They could also soak up the Ironclad’s HK Missiles. The Dread might have only two of these, and its 2+ save might still save the battlesuit even if a missile hits, but if one hits and the save fails, the S:8 missile will insta-kill the Broad. Good option to consider.
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Personally, I like how an Ironclad Dreadnought w/ 2 Hunter-Killer Missiles and Assault Launchers vs a Broadside Battlesuit w/ 2 Plasma Rifles and Drone Controller (whatever combination but no Gun Drone) looks on paper for this particular scenario.
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Another fight that may be decent on paper is a Venerable Dreadnought w/ TL Lascannon, TL Autocannon (or even dual Autos), and Extra Armour vs Broadside Battlesuit w/ 2 Plasma Rifles and ASS. But this one might be a bit too favorable to the Broad in this scenario.
“In addition, they have a single hard-wire support option. SINGLE. That means that this Broadside cannot have ALL the support items you all have been mentioning at once. It can have only one.”
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Point taken. I was over eager delving into the tabletop game itself, where EACH broadside in the team can take one each. And because only a complete dumbass would take a team of one Broadside, I jumped to conclusions.
But in this scenario there’s only one Broadside, so only one hard point can be taken.
You’re right, as usual.
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But what everyone seems to be forgetting is that the Broadside battlesuit doesn’t merely have a railgun. Nope, it has TWO railguns, twin-linked into a tandem pair. So if you get hit at all, in all likelihood, fluff-wise it’s the equivalent of being hit twice in the face by perhaps the feared tank-destroying weapon in W40K.
I’d say any hit, to any part of any kind of Dreadnought would take out a large chunk of armour plating, exposing it to volleys of its secondary weapons. Even a glancing hit would be enough to allow either the SMS or plasma rifles to finish the job.
^ But wait, not everyone forgot that the Broadside has two railguns. Just a case of hyperbole.
I have just remembered an important fact relating to the taking of equipment on a Broadside. If said Broadside is a Team Leader or Shas’Vre, it can take quite a few hard-point systems as hard-wired options instead.
So if we’re using a Shas’Vre Broadside in the case, it can take a hard-point Advanced Stabiliser System, as well as a Hard-Wired Drone Controller AND as Hard-Wired Multitracker just for kicks.
So say hello to firing on the move, having a shield drone to soak up fire, and firing both weapons at the same time. Yes, it will hurt as much as it sounds. And no, if we’re using this set-up then the Dreadnought will have literally no chance.
But hey, just thought I’d put it out there.
“I have just remembered an important fact relating to the taking of equipment on a Broadside. If said Broadside is a Team Leader or Shas’Vre, it can take quite a few hard-point systems as hard-wired options instead.
So if we’re using a Shas’Vre Broadside in the case, it can take a hard-point Advanced Stabiliser System, as well as a Hard-Wired Drone Controller AND as Hard-Wired Multitracker just for kicks.
So say hello to firing on the move, having a shield drone to soak up fire, and firing both weapons at the same time. Yes, it will hurt as much as it sounds. And no, if we’re using this set-up then the Dreadnought will have literally no chance.
But hey, just thought I’d put it out there.”
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That is indeed something to consider, but I would say that is a bit of an unnecesary advantage. Like you well said, fluff dictates that a single Rail hit would decimate a Dread. There is little reason to give the Broad even greater odds than that, yet it has them naturally by having the rails be linked, having a secondary weapon system for versatility, and having a support system to improve its overall performance. Like I said before, a vanilla vs vanilla situation would be a stomp no matter how you look at it, so we have to give more advantages than usual to the Dread.
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The reason why I suggest the Ironclad is because it is the one dread that can match-up with any hope against a Broadside in both the tabletop as well as fluff, as the only hope any Dread has is to stay the fuck out of the Rail’s line of sight. If you give the Broad multitracker, marker/shield drones, and ASS, even an Ironclad Dread maximizing terrain and cover, like you said, stands no chance at all. So why have a debate that’s decided from the start?
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If a Shas’Vre is considered, then I propose the Dread ought to be a Blood Angels’ Furioso Librarian w/ Extra Armour, The Blood Lane, and Wings of Sanguinius. Hello flying Dread with 4D6″ – S:8 – AP:1 attack that requires no line of sight. THAT would be pretty one-sided to the Dread’s favor. Moving 12″ at a time, staying out of Rail sight, and delivering an insta-killing shot from out of nowhere is no laughing matter.
WS3 twin-linked is still WS3, you just get a second chance. and that pic of the Ironclad shows smoke launchers, so that gives it some cover on the move. combo’d with the smoke and craters of this landscape, that’s a pretty big help against those nasty railguns.
Also, the Hammerhead railgun can use submunitions, which in-game just puts a slightly weaker pie-plate of doom into the enemy lines.
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You want a Shas’vre? Okay, but he’s gotta deal with a Blood Angels Librarian Furioso Dreadnought.
wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Librarian_Dreadnought#.UC5c7d2PXSg
wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Furioso_Dreadnought#.UC5dk92PXSh
It can pass a psychic test to make it move like Assault Marines, or it can cast Blood Lance, which is “everything on a line is screwed.”
“WS3 twin-linked is still WS3, you just get a second chance. and that pic of the Ironclad shows smoke launchers, so that gives it some cover on the move. combo’d with the smoke and craters of this landscape, that’s a pretty big help against those nasty railguns.”
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Yup. The Ironclad has Move Through Cover and weapons to breack his way through terrain as needed. The Smoke Launchers ought to let it maneuver any open stretches of the arena till it gets behind something else once again. It also has Extra Armour to help defend itself a bit better on the off chance the Broad does manage to spot him through the smoke and debris, but then it also has two HK missiles to respond. One save failed against those, and the broad gets insta-killed.
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Nevertheless, the Ironclad/Broad battle would be one fought almost like a guerilla. The Dread will have to stay behind cover 95% of the time, and the Broad will have to try to flush it out every step of the way because that 5% could proove to be quite lethal.
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“You want a Shas’vre? Okay, but he’s gotta deal with a Blood Angels Librarian Furioso Dreadnought.”
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Yea. That Dread I proposed would be a sure win in any scenario that is not a clear and open field for the Rails to out-range it. Being able to fly behind any structure is potent all on its own, but being able to delived an S:8 AP:1 with no los required is just so much worse. Shields would last the Broad so long before a lance goes through to completely annihilate it.