Suggested by EnigmaJ
Which of these two powerful monsters would win a battle if they met in the skies above a deserted island?
Meta Ridley ( before phazon corruption ) from Metroid Prime or Shadow Lugia from Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness?
Meta Ridley may be scaled accordingly from the rest of his forms and Lugia may be scaled the other Lugia that have appeared in the games, manga, and anime/movies.
“1) it’s ambiguous. It could be either suitless or suited.”
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I see.
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The Super Nintendo Player’s Guide ( this is canon, correct? ) seems to strongly imply its suitless Samus though.
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images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57524/metroid/images/7/7a/Samus_PD.jpg
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“The Power Suit hides a strong, muscular woman. Samus is nearly six feet, three inches tall and weighs nearly 200 pounds.” -
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The phrasing strongly implies that the “strong, muscular woman” inside the power suit weighs 200 pounds. The text is also found under the “Without the Power Suit” title… The Metroid Wikia seems to interpret it this way as well, apparently.
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I could see how you could still potentially think otherwise ( I’ve heard that the Metroid 2 manual implies its the suit )… but personally, this has me convinced the weight is referring to suitless.
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“2) how much does a suit made of hard light and willpower weigh?”
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The weight of the suit itself is still up in the air I suppose.
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Although, considering the video you just posted, I’d like to think its “fucking massive”.
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“3) Chozo tech is weird.”
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No surprise there.
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“Oh, and Other M also shows Samus have monsterious strength when she pulls that whale monster out of lava. That is retard strength there.”
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Of course. I don’t think anyone is arguing that Samus is weak.
Is this on Earth or Zebes.
@Zolanius:
“Is this on Earth or Zebes.”
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The battle, or what is the question regarding?
This battle. Nothing in Metroid is on Earth. An Earth colony, maybe, but not Earth.
If he meant battle, it would be taking place in an Earth like place since on Zebes, there might be hazards. (like lava, or enemies spawning out of nowhere)
“…on the other hand they weren’t sentiant and I think all pokemon are (aren’t they?).”
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They are, Shadow Pokemon just go berserk for the hell of it though.
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“Garchomp is super sonic? Above or below ground?”
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His arm fins are wings, so its above ground.
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A few on topic gifs.
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Dodging attacks from the bird trio
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Areoblast
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Lugia strength
i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd515/The_Envoy/tumblr_m7jrljAeSB1rnln23o1_500.gif
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Full movie
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“and Lugia in the games split the Whirl Islands apart with a bolt of lightning.”
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I never finished gen 2 or played the remakes, vid please?
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Extrasensory is an invisible psychic attack, Future Sight lets him look into the future and toss out TK bolts in all the right places, safegaurd and recover allow him prevent any crippling effects from attacks and heal from them, and high speed maneuvers and barriers allow him to dodge and block attacks.
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Couple the above with MR losing flight after enough damage and being unable to do anything underwater, I’ll side with SL for now.
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“The weight of the suit itself is still up in the air I suppose.”
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Couldn’t someone use the MP3 Meta ridley fight to calc her fall speed? If it doesn’t match up with her 200kg weight fall speed should be the we’d probably know if her weight changes with/without the suit.
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TL;DR
I think Shadow Lugia probably wins, and Samus is the Captain Planet of Women’s Rights in a video game.
“The Super Nintendo Player’s Guide ( this is canon, correct? )”
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I take this as a secondary canon source for Metroid; at the same levels as the game manuals, so yes.
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“I’ve heard that the Metroid 2 manual implies its the suit ”
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Which is what I was thinking of.
metroid.retropixel.net/gallery.php?gallery_id=m2_manual&image_id=8
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Note that the height/weightfigure is given under the title of Cybernetic Suit Technical Spec.
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Personally I agree with 6’3″ and 90kg being Samus’s personal statistics rather than her suit’s. I had forgotten about the SM Guide’s info that you supplied, but that does help your point.
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“Of course. I don’t think anyone is arguing that Samus is weak.”
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I know that, but it is implied that she got that strength because she grew up on a high-gravity world. Incidentally, that is also why I disagree with Proto-Mind’s “just drop the Zebes mass down three orders of magnitude and it makes sense” arguement. On the physics, yes it would make sense, but it would also turn Zebes into a low-gravity world (something like 0.7 g I think). And Zebes has always been decribed as a massive and dense world for its size when it was described beyong merely being “hostile”. Again, this is why I think the Chozo use tech to fight gravity to survivable limits, but that isn’t supported by canon (due to no comment on it).
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“The weight of the suit itself is still up in the air I suppose.
Although, considering the video you just posted, I’d like to think its “fucking massive”.”
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Yes, its weight is never really specified. It is heavy enough to slightly hinder Samus’s jumping height (Zero Mission shows that Samus’s unarmored jump height is equal to her Hi-Jump assisted suited jump height; as well as Samus out of suit can pull her self up onehanded and within the suit requires an item upgrade to do the same thing), but this is off set by Samus jumping higher still (both in and out of armor) in the Manga and noone is going to argue that her arm strength is superior out of armor after she crumples the invulnerable robot with a single punch (in armor; manga). That all points to the armor being super heavy.
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Yet there is the flip side of that. Rundas pulls her up with what is basically a single finger in Prime 3. Gandrayda (who can alter her own mass, but is in her normal, mostly energy form in this event) manhandles Samus in their fight. Samus doesn’t crumple the platform when Ridley drops her in Other M (right when she reforms her suit; before Anthony gets thrown off of the platform). The explosion in Prime 1 that tossed her into the elevator and disabled all her powerups (intro area) it.. well.. it tossed her threw the air and slamed her into the wall. Either her defenses just got a power boost by about an order of magnitude or her suit is light for that one. Oh, she can stand on top of Space Pirates while she blows their heads off (it is an attack move from Other M; I forget the term for it). I would bring up Ridley being able to lift her but then it would turn into circular logic since his strength is dirived from the same argument so scratch everything Ridley directly does. (that does not include the previously cited example because Ridley is merely the method used to bring Samus into the air; that example is about her falling and landing; not Ridley directly). With that last bit in mind: Other M shows Samus jump down a huge elevator shaft and not crumple the floor on landing.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvEqqmM_kGM&feature=relmfu
7:39.
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Basically, while there is evidence to it being both fuckton biggatons heavy, there is also evidence FROM THE SAME SOURCE that suggest otherwise.
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“Couldn’t someone use the MP3 Meta ridley fight to calc her fall speed? If it doesn’t match up with her 200kg weight fall speed should be the we’d probably know if her weight changes with/without the suit.”
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No. Fall speed has nothing to do with mass. It has everything to do with gravity and areodynamics. Well, I suppose mass has a small bit to play in there, but it is by far a distant concern and can be largely ignored and the numbers still remain mostly accurate.
@Proto-mind
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Sorry, I don’t know enough about structural deformation to go in-depth on that. I can tell you did the kinematics part ( motion equations ) correctly, but I suspect W=F*d may be an oversimplification of the penetration process. I’m not exactly sure why though. I’ve seen example problems using impulse to calculate the average force exerted by an object on impact, but never work.
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Think about it realistically for a second though. 90 kg isn’t that much greater than the mass of your average adult male. If you were to drop a large man from a height of 3 meters, or even from a large building, you wouldn’t expect him to crack the concrete, let alone structurally deform over an inch of solid metal.
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Ehh, whatever. I’m not much help here.
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@Envoy
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“I never finished gen 2 or played the remakes, vid please?”
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I hope this doesn’t come as too much of a disappointment, but this doesn’t happen on screen. It happened some time ago in the ancient past.
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It’s told to you by a monk in the game if you’ve yet to obtain the Silver Wing:
“A long time ago, the Whirl Islands used to be one large island. There were two countries fighting over the island back then. LUGIA, the guardian of the island, got upset and cast lightning bolts to tear the island into four pieces, then disappeared into the deep end of the waterfall basin… I will let you through if you bring the Silver Wing, which is said to have fallen from LUGIA. But the true challenge is whether LUGIA will appear in front of you. What LUGIA has longed for is the invisible trust between people and Pokémon… Or the person who can restore such a relationship…”
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“Couldn’t someone use the MP3 Meta ridley fight to calc her fall speed? If it doesn’t match up with her 200kg weight fall speed should be the we’d probably know if her weight changes with/without the suit.”
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Pretty much what OriginalA said. The mass isn’t really a factor until you beign taking into account air resistance. And even then, it would require the use of calculus and it may not even make that big of a difference since she’s not really falling for very long.
@EnigmaJ:
“Think about it realistically for a second though. 90 kg isn’t that much greater than the mass of your average adult male. If you were to drop a large man from a height of 3 meters, or even from a large building, you wouldn’t expect him to crack the concrete, let alone structurally deform over an inch of solid metal.”
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Well, I think mass would make a difference. A man of the same weight falling from the same height wouldn’t end up cracking concrete because he’s not of the same kind of material.
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It would appear Samus’ weight is 90 kg., and we don’t know how much she weighs with the Power Suit on. If you added an extra 100 lbs., that would be 135 kg. I’ve gone back and changed the 2 inches to 6 inches because the metal was thicker than I was originally paying attention. I ended up with 3 tons if rounded anyway. Again, I’m not sure if that was done correctly.
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Even if that wouldn’t cause something like that to happen, I would think the next safest thing to do would be to go with the idea that Samus’ Power Suit is heavy, and we don’t know the weight. OriginalA did bring up the point of Rundas lifting Samus up, but we don’t know how much he can lift.
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If Zebes had the 865.5 g, then that’s 100,337,982 Newtons.
@OriginalA
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Some of the evidence you posted against the “heavy suit” could be reasonably rationalized.
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“Samus doesn’t crumple the platform when Ridley drops her in Other M (right when she reforms her suit…With that last bit in mind: Other M shows Samus jump down a huge elevator shaft and not crumple the floor on landing.”
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The materials those surfaces are made out of could possibly be made out of materials somewhat stronger than the previous one Samus crumpled, for example.
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“Yet there is the flip side of that. Rundas pulls her up with what is basically a single finger in Prime 3.”
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While Samus’ armor would have to be “fucking heavy” to structurally deform the metal with that fall, I don’t think the weight would be so silly that lifting it couldn’t be regarded as a valid strength feat for Metroid bosses.
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I mean, Samus’ momentum would have played a large role in the metal crumpling anyways. It’s not like her dead weight is what’s applying enough pressure to break the metal. It’s the reaction force exerted on the material as it changes Samus’ momentum in such a small amount of time ( Force = Change in Momentum/Time )… this force would likely exceed her dead weight, especially if Samus was initially moving fast enough.
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The more massive the suit, the greater the momentum change, the greater the force applied to the material.
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Still completely out of my ability to quantify, but it is what it is.
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” Oh, she can stand on top of Space Pirates while she blows their heads off (it is an attack move from Other M; I forget the term for it).”
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Pretty much, what I said above—except if she jumps onto their heads from like 3+ meters just like in the metal crumpling scene.
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In that case… it doesn’t really matter how you interpret Metroid. Low gravity, high gravity, heavy suit, light suit… you’d still end up with the conclusion that “Space Pirate shoulders > Random Metal Floor”
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“The explosion in Prime 1 that tossed her into the elevator and disabled all her powerups (intro area) it.. well.. it tossed her threw the air and slamed her into the wall.”
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Ok then… I’m tempted to just pass it off as a “strong explosion”, but the implications for this one are… far reaching. Personally, I feel this one is the most troublesome…
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Anyways, I’m just pulling random possible explanations out of my ass in an attempt to rationalize the snippets you’re giving me. The “heavy suit” explanation seems to have a lot more implications than I originally thought, so I’d have to take a step back before I could properly say whether or not I fully support the idea then. It’s not like it’s that big of a deal anyways. Whatever. Onto the more important part.
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“I know that, but it is implied that she got that strength because she grew up on a high-gravity world.”
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Is this based merely on the fact that she’s super human or is there something else that actually implies that these planets are physically hard to move on?
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“And Zebes has always been decribed as a massive and dense world for its size when it was described beyong merely being “hostile”.”
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Apparently the crust is “massive”. But that could just as easily result from it extending down to an extraordinary depth beneath the planet’s surface. And even if this wasn’t the case, the fact that it’s “hollow” would play a role in lowering the average density.
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“Again, this is why I think the Chozo use tech to fight gravity to survivable limits, but that isn’t supported by canon (due to no comment on it).”
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Except for the fact these planets don’t look or act like ones with 800x Earth’s gravity… functional water cycle, atmosphere that extends hundreds of kilometers above the surface, air not being denser than a fluid… I mean, so far, three different possibilities have been presented:
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1.) These planets have 800x Earth’s mass and effective 800x Earth’s gravity.
2.) These planets have 800x Earth’s mass, but the effective gravity is not 800 g’s for some ill explained reason.
3.) These planets do not have 800x Earth’s mass, and as such have effective gravity near 1 g.
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Whether or not we *are* left with a scenario that points to Zebes being overall, denser than normal, this doesn’t change the fact that we’re also left with data that makes 800x Earth’s gravitational acceleration at the surface a physical impossibility. And if we *are* going to presume that Metroid magic allows us to handwave the effects of gravity on planet’s surface ( air, water, etc ), then that same handwave would make the creatures and objects on the surface exempt from the effects of the gravity as well.
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That said, I’m tempted to think the evidence points to either Option 2 or 3. Even Option 2 allows you some leeway for these planets gravitational acceleration if you want to make the claim that Samus gained strength as a direct result of it; 2 g’s. 5 g’s. Maybe even 10 g’s. All would allow for the visual and textual info known about these planets. But I don’t think anything other than the radius and the mass figures for the planet happens implies that the gravity for Zebes is as high 800 g’s.
@EnigmaJ:
“The materials those surfaces are made out of could possibly be made out of materials somewhat stronger than the previous one Samus crumpled, for example.”
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Here are two cars falling from a plane, and neither leave a crater. I think the flooring in Tourian had nothing below the 5 inches of alloy to prevent damage. Also, in the shaft Samus drops through, the floor is already kind of smashed in. Well, onto the cars.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBAzWE2CtBY#t=01m23s
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Pause at 1:28.
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“Here are two cars falling from a plane, and neither leave a crater.”
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Realize that the surface area plays a large role in whether the applied force/energy is enough to deform the material. The car’s fall is occurs across its entire base. Samus fall is centralized on her left shin and right foot. A lot less surface area, so her fall would have a lot more effect on the surface she’s falling on. So it’s still hard to say how heavy she would have to be in comparison to a car.
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“I think the flooring in Tourian had nothing below the 5 inches of alloy to prevent damage. Also, in the shaft Samus drops through, the floor is already kind of smashed in.”
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Like I said, I was just pulling random possible rationalizations out of my ass. I don’t really know enough about their implications to push them.
@Envoy
“Extrasensory is an invisible psychic attack, Future Sight lets him look into the future and toss out TK bolts in all the right places, safegaurd and recover allow him prevent any crippling effects from attacks and heal from them, and high speed maneuvers and barriers allow him to dodge and block attacks.
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Couple the above with MR losing flight after enough damage and being unable to do anything underwater, I’ll side with SL for now.”
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This all sounds nice and all but which part of Shadow Lugia only knows shadow moves didn’t you get? we are indeed allowed to scale his feats next to lugia like his shadowblast next to aeroblast and reflexes and speed in the same manner. however all shadow pokemon and SL likewise can only access shadowmoves. it is not stated anywhere that he knows shadow versions of every move he knows or can learn as regulair lugia.
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so for short as far as i been able to grasp his moves it means no extrasensory, future sight etc.
@EnigmaJ:
“Like I said, I was just pulling random possible rationalizations out of my ass. I don’t really know enough about their implications to push them.”
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Well, when it comes down to it, all of this is really nothing but interpretation. Everyone is just trying to figure out the most reasonable interpretation.
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As for what OriginalA said about the 1,000 difference, I didn’t address it, but I also didn’t explain myself fully. When I said there would be similarities, I was referring to the 4.8 trillion teratons. “Teratons” means trillion tons.
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Earth is 5.9 billion trillion tons. Zebes is 4.8 trillion teratons. Had it been 4.8 billion teratons, there would be slight differences between Earth and Zebes, Zebes being 20% smaller, I think. So yeah. I’m not trying to step on anyone’s toes. I would love to believe Samus has 86 ton strength.
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Oh well. :/
“Everyone is just trying to figure out the most reasonable interpretation.”
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Most reasonable explination is that the numbers are right and Zebes has artificial anti-gravity that makes its effective gravity somewhere around Earth-like. That would satisfy everyone.
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Considering that the technology to artificially create a black hole on demand exists in the Metroidverse, planetary anti-grav tech isn’t beyond the scale of their known gravity tech, and that black hole couldn’t have been made by sheer mass as they would require a mass that is several orders of magnitude greater than the ship that did produce it… so, yeah…
“This all sounds nice and all but which part of Shadow Lugia only knows shadow moves didn’t you get?”
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The part where I played both Colosseum games and I know for a fact that shadow pokemon have their shadow moves and normal ones during purification, and as a general rule 4 move sets and movepools are loaded with game mechanics.
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In case you don’t believe a guy who played and beat both of the games with an 100%, here’s a video:
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3E0SWqRYsE&feature=player_detailpage#t=313s
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and a quote from the (officials) prima guide under Shadow Pokemon:
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“They come equipped with two shadow moves and will slowly learn two additional moves until they are purified.”
-Page 8
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Also here’s Shadow Lugia TKing a large ship, it can’t learn any sort of shadow TK move.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHMw_iF60vw
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Alongside EnigmaJ’s island splitting lightning bolts, the above video would be the second time(at least on this thread) a pokemon uses a move it cannot learn normally, though this is a shadow pokemon.
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“so for short as far as i been able to grasp his moves it means no extrasensory, future sight etc.”
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Judging by your text you have never played the games and have only read off of a wiki page er summin.
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Shadow Pokemon have a gauge filled with all of the “badstuffs” Team Cipher did to them, removing their emotions and turning them into mindless killing machines. The player character uses a special machine to steal already caught pokemon, only the shadow ones, and heal their tortured souls with the power of friendship. As you do this the gauge empties out and the pokemon learn their old moves, once the gauge is empty you go into a certain in game area and remove the shadow aura from them, changing them back into regular pokemon and removing the shadow moves completely.
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Shadow Lugia should know its four shadow moves, but the four move limit is a game mechanic, so it should also have the other abilities of a regular Lugia.
“Well, when it comes down to it, all of this is really nothing but interpretation. Everyone is just trying to figure out the most reasonable interpretation.”
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Pretty much.
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“I would love to believe Samus has 86 ton strength.”
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I wouldn’t be surprised if it eventually became evident that she exceeds that while suited to be honest.
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“Most reasonable explination is that the numbers are right and Zebes has artificial anti-gravity that makes its effective gravity somewhere around Earth-like. That would satisfy everyone.”
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I agree. For now at least, this one probably makes the most sense.
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“Alongside EnigmaJ’s island splitting lightning bolts, the above video would be the second time(at least on this thread) a pokemon uses a move it cannot learn normally”
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The Pokedex makes the “learned moves” seem questionable too actually, from Umbreon not being capable of learning any poison type attacks naturally to Blaizekin not learning bounce unless it’s through a move tutor. Nothing else comes to mind, but I believe there are others.
“seem questionable too actually”
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Well, “questionable” isn’t quite the word. “Incomplete” rather.
@envoy
“They come equipped with two shadow moves and will slowly learn two additional moves until they are purified.”
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since we speak about “Shadow” lugia here i was taking that it was not yet even partly purified so for that matter no old moves yet learned. and i bet SL ain’t gonna have time to get purified during the fight.
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so if he is full Shadow or partly to fully purified.
for that question i would like to turn to enigmaJ for an answer.
though it would still mean ridley would be fast as hell compared to the lugia’s if all the speed feats are true.
“The Pokedex makes the “learned moves” seem questionable too actually, from Umbreon not being capable of learning any poison type attacks naturally to Blaizekin not learning bounce unless it’s through a move tutor. Nothing else comes to mind, but I believe there are others.”
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I wasn’t tryna say Lugia was the only one, I didn’t realize Umbreon and Blaizeken had those incomplete movepools though. Most of the time its like water and flying types that don’t know how to swim or fly without HMs too. Or pokes who cant sleep cause they don’t know rest.
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“since we speak about “Shadow” lugia here i was taking that it was not yet even partly purified so for that matter no old moves yet learned.”
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You’re still using the four move limit game mechanic to limit shadow lugia’s moves. Multiple pokemon have start moves(moves that they’re born with) that number higher than four, add pokedex entries into that and they get even more. Its a game mechanic.
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I just showed you him using telekinesis, a regular move that Lugia can’t even learn(in game) and you still think he’s limited to just shadow moves?
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“though it would still mean ridley would be fast as hell compared to the lugia’s if all the speed feats are true.”
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Future sight, barriers, recover, multiscale, and general agility should help in that aspect. Also, his attacks don’t travel at the same speed. He’d also loose flight giving enough damage, severely crippling him especially since he can’t swim.
@envoy
“You’re still using the four move limit game mechanic to limit shadow lugia’s moves. Multiple pokemon have start moves(moves that they’re born with) that number higher than four, add pokedex entries into that and they get even more. Its a game mechanic.”
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trying to limit him? hardly, if he learns any other shadow moves that i am not aware of share them with their effects. because he would be allowed to use them all.
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“I just showed you him using telekinesis, a regular move that Lugia can’t even learn(in game) and you still think he’s limited to just shadow moves?”
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if you where speaking about him using the shadow aura of his shadow abilities then i will not agree on the telekinesis part. as it is clearly a different way of doing the same trick.
also on a sidenote, no telepathy unless your gonna show me a still completely unpurified shadow lugia doing this. not sure if ridley would be driven insane or whatever by hearing voices in his head. but i am still convinced that the process to becomming a shadow pokemon messed that part of lugia up.
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“Future sight, barriers, recover, multiscale, and general agility should help in that aspect. Also, his attacks don’t travel at the same speed. He’d also loose flight giving enough damage, severely crippling him especially since he can’t swim.”
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now if we would have the match between MR and a rugulair lugia, i would have been more skeptical about the outcome of this match if it would have been. then these moves would have indeed been major factors.
you however do not seem to understand my point where i point at the part where i am rather sure this is meant to be lugia at full Shadow, so again no purified moves learned yet. if you however can prove that the fight can help him get purified, then i hope for SL that the fight takes long, so he can unlock his whole freaking arsenal.
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i hope you understood some of my points, since you left me wondering if some of the points i made in my last post where somewhat unclear like the last point but critical part does he have access to any purified moves yet or is he full shadow.
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btw i was not kidding when i said that regulair lugia would have been better, especially since we would have agreed that he would have had access to all his moves in that case.
“trying to limit him? hardly, if he learns any other shadow moves that i am not aware of share them with their effects. because he would be allowed to use them all.”
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You are still using a game mechanic, Pokemon are not limited to four moves. The only things shadow moves replace are the four moves we see.
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“if you where speaking about him using the shadow aura of his shadow abilities then i will not agree on the telekinesis part. as it is clearly a different way of doing the same trick.”
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There is no shadow move that can do what you are saying, and even if there was Lugia doesn’t know it. The animation matches no other shadow move in the game as well. At this point you’re making things up to fit your argument.
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You do know Fly is also a regular move, and by your argument Lugia should not be flying.
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“you however do not seem to understand my point where i point at the part where i am rather sure this is meant to be lugia at full Shadow, so again no purified moves learned yet.”
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You are still basing it on the four move limit.
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Lugia has more than four moves. Shadow Lugia gets four shadow moves that replace four regular moves. It still has the other moves that were not replaced.
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In Shadow Lugia’s case the only moves replaced were Earthquake, Hydro Pump, Feather Dance, and Psycho Boost. The rest are fair game.
Don’t Pokemon in the anime usually only have four moves? That seems to be the case, most of the time.
“Don’t Pokemon in the anime usually only have four moves? That seems to be the case, most of the time.”
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The games show them having more.
“You are still basing it on the four move limit.”
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someone clearly wants to believe this. -.-
if you base this off my purification part of my argument then you clearly understand my comment in the wrong way.
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“There is no shadow move that can do what you are saying, and even if there was Lugia doesn’t know it. The animation matches no other shadow move in the game as well. At this point you’re making things up to fit your argument.”
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that move is which i meant in case it was not clear. SL uses a shadow aura to lift up the ship.
remember from the very youtube link you posted, that move. so i am basing it on information you gave us.
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“You do know Fly is also a regular move, and by your argument Lugia should not be flying.”
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you know that part of pokemon has always been foggy since flying and FLY have beeing showing to actually be different in some sort of a way.
My personal theory, but this is just as doubtfull as just assumeming the opposite is that while most flying types know how to fly around, they do not know how to use this passive ability in an offensive way other then using other moves like wing attack etc.
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“Don’t Pokemon in the anime usually only have four moves? That seems to be the case, most of the time.”
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Sometimes seems this way, but no in the anime pokemon their ability pool is just as limited as the amount of skills learned by the pokemon so far. and the competence of the trainer to let them use those abilities. yes i am looking at you ash ketchum!
@Hellion Nick:
“someone clearly wants to believe this. -.-
if you base this off my purification part of my argument then you clearly understand my comment in the wrong way.”
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In other words, if this was Lugia, it would be granted all of its abilities it can learn, but since it’s Shadow Lugia, it is restricted. Correct?
@proto-mind
since i understood shadow pokemon only regain their Non-shadow-moves once they started getting purified, the answer is yes.
or rather once the “doors to their hearts” be opened again to put it like the story does.
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i get where EnigmaJ was comming from putting Shadow Lugia up here, but i think Lugia would actually have been better. then again that might just be a match in regulair lugia’s favor.
but it would have prevented this argument about which moves are allowed for SL.
“if you base this off my purification part of my argument then you clearly understand my comment in the wrong way.”
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Actually, you’re still stuck on shadow pokemon only having shadow moves. Where is the proof for that? Because its been stated no where.
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“that move is which i meant in case it was not clear. SL uses a shadow aura to lift up the ship.
remember from the very youtube link you posted, that move. so i am basing it on information you gave us.”
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No you’re not, you’re saying that instead of Lugia using a move that exists, he is using a completely made up one that’s only been seen in one scene of one game.
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Or would you like to point out the canon statement where it says that Lugia lifted a boat with a shadow move?
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“you know that part of pokemon has always been foggy since flying and FLY have beeing showing to actually be different in some sort of a way.”
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Or it’s a game mechanic like 99% of everything else in pokemon.
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“since i understood shadow pokemon only regain their Non-shadow-moves once they started getting purified, the answer is yes.”
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No, there are four moves a pokemone has before getting all shadowy. Some shadow pokemon have less than four shadow moves empty slots appear for the normal ones. They don’t learn any new or old moves, they gain access to their old moves.
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You’re the one who needs to prove that having 2+ shadow moves and no regular moves mean that it has no regular moves at all.
“No you’re not, you’re saying that instead of Lugia using a move that exists, he is using a completely made up one that’s only been seen in one scene of one game.”
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wouldn’t that be the part were the two of us agree he has more then 4 moves. so drop the game mechanic excuse. then again game mechanics are almost unavoideble for pokemon due to the overload of games. and yes it is only seen in the begin scene, however he can use it so nameless move or not he can use it.
if you would like to say this is his shadow version of psychic then here is your chance to claim he can use it. really do it since i am just skeptical about SL winning though i would rather have him win over a dragon i know only minor details about thanks to orber.
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“Or it’s a game mechanic like 99% of everything else in pokemon.”
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ok since i even heard them speak about levels in the anime in one of the first episodes. and seen how many excist nowadays in mean somewhere in the first 25 of season one don’t remember the excact one. you now practicly point out that pokemon is based on game mechanics completely. i know it isn’t yet you make it sound like pokemon is that stupid with that sentence.
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“You’re the one who needs to prove that having 2+ shadow moves and no regular moves mean that it has no regular moves at all.”
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from what i gathered they have to regain access to their old moves once they bacame all shadowy so would you also like to prove your statement that they actually keep their regulair moves more clearly.
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so far i dare say we both got a nugget of the truth. i am still skeptical about SL pulling off what you say he is gonna take like it is nothing with full confidence. and i am pretty sure non of us are retarded so don’t even try.
“wouldn’t that be the part were the two of us agree he has more then 4 moves.”
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No. Having more than four moves does not mean you can fabricate moves to fit your perspective, especially when provide no evidence.
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One of us is claiming that Lugia is using something that has been seen before and after in the series, the other is saying its something only seen once and never explained.
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“if you would like to say this is his shadow version of psychic then here is your chance to claim he can use it. ”
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I did not say that, you made the claim, you prove it. The burden falls on you.
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“ok since i even heard them speak about levels in the anime in one of the first episodes. and seen how many excist nowadays in mean somewhere in the first 25 of season one don’t remember the excact one.”
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Go find it then, but really wouldn’t matter. There are multiple places in the games which state otherwise.
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“from what i gathered they have to regain access to their old moves once they bacame all shadowy so would you also like to prove your statement that they actually keep their regulair moves more clearly.”
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No. Its still on you. I’ve only claimed that Shadow moves replace the four we see them replace(the evidence for this is already provided). To get those four back, they need to be purified. The rest have not been touched.
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You are saying that all moves are locked out, but you haven’t given any evidence. You’ve said that shadow pokemon can only use shadow moves until purified. While its true that shadow pokes regain three or less moves during purification, there is no evidence of them being unable to use any other moves before than. You need to give evidence of that to be right.
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“from what i gathered they have to regain access to their old moves once they bacame all shadowy so would you also like to prove your statement that they actually keep their regulair moves more clearly.”
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No, the only ones they lose and regain are the in game four, you need to prove that there are more replaced. I’ve already proven pokemon use more moves than four.
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Just because you lack any sources to back your hypothesis does not mean you can ask me to give more.
“One of us is claiming that Lugia is using something that has been seen before and after in the series, the other is saying its something only seen once and never explained.”
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So you want to explain why you posted the very link to the video that showed above mentioned move? Rather contradictive to first post evidence then disclaim it. Do me a favor and make up your mind on this one before you post about this part again.
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“I did not say that, you made the claim, you prove it. The burden falls on you.”
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The only other explanation would be that he is using the shadow aura that he summons for all his other shadow moves aswell, to make this move. And for that matter read any description on his shadow abilities, Stating a shadow aura is used to do the move in question. So far i made no claim, you merely wringled the assumption in my head. And last i checked assumptions went for nothing here on this site. So i do not need to prove what I did not claim.
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“Go find it then, but really wouldn’t matter. There are multiple places in the games which state otherwise.”
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My good friend orber was right, You are one of the more contradictive people around. First you whine about game mechanics and now you turn to the game when you face something annoying from the anime. As for the mentioned episode, Though i failed to find a link. The exact episode is from season one, episode 9. School of hard knocks. The top student mentions levels several times. You might have more luck on your own finding the actual episode, Especially now that you know the exact episode and title.
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“No. Its still on you. I’ve only claimed that Shadow moves replace the four we see them replace(the evidence for this is already provided). To get those four back, they need to be purified. The rest have not been touched.”
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Where was it posted how the other moves were unaffected? You claim i make things up, but so far you are commiting the same offence you blame on me. As i have not seen evidence that claims other moves are remaining unaffected. It even sounds doubtfull that the almighty shadow process does not affect every given move.
Here is my real claim, non of us might have the right on this one. As i stated earlier this seems like EnigmaJ has the final word on Shadow Lugia his movepool access.
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“I’ve already proven pokemon use more moves than four.”
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This sentence makes me die of laughter. Especially since i already showed i support the fact that pokemon have access to more then four moves. Just a sidenote if the games would have had limitless moves, you really think shadowpokemon would have gained any old/regulair moves before they started purifying?
Just like all the wild assumptions of BOTH of us this sidenote does not count towards any evidence. So spare you own fingers typing about it.
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“Just because you lack any sources to back your hypothesis does not mean you can ask me to give more.”
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As i stated, if you know so much. Then be a gent and provide us all with the evidence none of us has so far provided regarding allowed to use moves. Something we clearly need to end this, to make sure this whole page is not just Shadow Lugia moves dedicated.
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On that last matter, can some Metal ridley fans come back. Since the only feat remaining in my head is that he is Mach 44 on a planet.
And if Envoy would be able to change my skeptical mind on the move matter i might switch Shadow Lugia in an instant.
I don’t see anything supporting the claim the all the moves a pokemon knows automaticly becomes “shadowy” when they turn into a shadowtype.But I also don’t see anything that can support the claim that shadow pokemon still can use their normal “non shadow” abilities.It’s a dead end for all I can see.
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*My good friend orber was right, You are one of the more contradictive people around*
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You misinterprented.I said both you and Envoy where entering in a rather deep debate about gameplay mechanics about a heavily gameplay mechanic RPG game.I said one of you 2 are going to contradic yourself sooner or later as this happens alot with this kind of debate.Especially because there are 2 source materials you can draw your info on and both source materials have contradicted eachother on several occasions.
Never mind the could not find a link.
Turns out the mirrors for the episodes where on the crashcourse. This should be a valid link to the mentioned episode. Also watching this episode, I realized the other students are also mentioning levels a few times.
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watchpokemonepisodes.com/pokemon-episode-9
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Have fun with one of those it all began with.
“You misinterprented”
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More likely that i will clearify this on steam now that i readed that comment again.
Then again i did not misunderstand, I Misprenounced. You told me that Envoy could bring in contradictions ever now and then next to the chance of contradictions comment.
So yes i apologize for wrongly pronouncing this, I took your comment and added the situation Envoy and myself are in here, And accidentely threw my own opinion in with your name in the same sentence.
Soo…reading this thread…is Shadow Lugia really confined to four moves, or is that just game mechanics. Cause if not, I’d give this to Ridley.
“Soo…reading this thread…is Shadow Lugia really confined to four moves, or is that just game mechanics.”
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Its game mechanics.
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www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5hjW02fLlrA#t=584s
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