Suggested by Crimson Sentry
This match takes place between two of the Blood God’s most favored sons, Kharn the Betrayer and Skulltaker (Bloodletter Champion of Khorne) all from Warhammer 40K.
This is the type of battle that would do well on a pokerblog because of all the powers and destruction these two wield, it would be interesting to see the odds for the favorite.
The battle takes place in one of the fight pits on Drakassi, which is a demon world dedicated to Khorne deep within the eye of terror.
The purpose of this is to give Skulltaker a permanent tether to the physical world until his corporeal essence is destroyed.
Both combatants have amazing feats and undeniably are two of the Blood God’s greatest duelists, but in a fight to the death (with no resurrecting, and the fight end when a combatants physical body is destroyed) who would emerge triumphant?
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All bloodletters are bullet timers btw and plasma to my knowledge moves slower than normal metal projectiles, albeit it’s much more deadly.
Not sure if its relevant, but in the game “Space Marine”, whenever you shoot a Bloodletter it teleports towards you to close the gap.
Probably game mechanics TBH, but I’ll just leave that out here anyway.
If we choose to regard this as canon, then Skulltaker has a viable way to get past Kharn’s plasma pistol with no trouble at all.
Times like this make me wish I had access to the Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons codices.
I DO know that before 6th ed screwed with power weapons, Kharn was the second best named char CSMs had, next to Abaddon. He was made to wreck most things in close combat, and whenever he showed up on the table at my Local Game Store, the enemy either died horribly, or focused EVERY-DAMNED-THING on getting rid of him before things died horribly(that went double for Abaddon of course).
To anyone with the codices, stats please, most recent ed. preferably.
nvm, got em… gimme a sec.
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Kharn
Weapon Skill 7, Ballistic Skill 5, Strength 5, Toughness 4, Wounds 3, Initiative 5, Attacks 5, Leadership 10, Armour save 3+
Gear: Plasma Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Gorechild, Personal Icon, Mark of Khorne.
Skulltaker
Weapon Skill 9, Ballistic Skill 0, Strength 6, Toughness 4, Wounds 2, Initiative 9, Attacks 4, Leadership 8.
Gear: Hellblade, Cloak of Skulls
Speciall Rules: Daemonic, Killing Blow, Flaming Attacks, Skulls for the Skull Throne!, Hatred(all enemies)
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Okay, Gorechild allowed Kharn to hit on a 2+ Regardless of skill, He had a 5+ Invulnerable save, and was immune to force weapon instadeath and psychic powers.
Looks like Skulltaker has 4+ rending(instant wound, no armor save, but invulnerables allowed), instant death(not sure if psychic, since it’s Khorne, doubt it), a 5+ invulnerable, and not sure about the rest.
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Sooo… Kharn can shoot, throw grenades, can swing more times, and connects more easily. he also can take 1 more hit than ST.
but Skulltaker is faster, his weapon forces that 5+ invulnerable save on a 4 or better, and whatever the other rules give him.
Need some info on those rules of STs, please.
Unfortunately I don’t play CSM, only Grey Knights. However, those stat lines provide a good groundwork for the characters although apparently Factpile would prefer novels and other fluff over tabletop rules.
In either case: It seems that for some reason Skulltaker has more raw power – strength 6 when compared to Kharn’s strength 5.
He also has more speed, but somehow does not swing his weapon as fast? (More initiative, but less attacks for some reason)
And he also has 2 more weapon skill. Kharn’s going down for sure.
“@soulerous
read my posts from above, I address the closing the gap question.”
-Thanks for pointing that out. I saw what you said about warping in realspace, It just didn’t register that you rebuked the talk of the fight not taking place in realspace after all.
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“All bloodletters are bullet timers btw and plasma to my knowledge moves slower than normal metal projectiles, albeit it’s much more deadly.”
-I was told that Warhammer plasma strikes the target almost instantaneously. It seems I was fibbed to.
“plasma to my knowledge moves slower than normal metal projectiles”
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No, plasma weapons move faster than bolter rounds
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“Zatori’s pupils contracted rapidly as the blindingly bright bolt of plasma lanced out of the weapon’s barrel. Though not as fast as bursts from a lasgun, plasma bolts had a far greater muzzle velocity than the bolts fired by a bolt pistol or bolter, closing the distance from weapon to target in the merest fraction of an instant. The rock outcropping vanished in a flash of searing heat and explosive shock, sending a puff of atomised flint into the air, a small black cloud that lingered a few metres over the ground.”
Sons of Dorn, p.128
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Bolter rounds being mid supersonic armour piercing RPG rounds btw (a low end estimate of bolt round speed based on muzzle velocities of similar caliber modern day bullets)
Yeah, there’s what you said. You were right after all. Have a Brownie Point.
“He also has more speed, but somehow does not swing his weapon as fast (More initiative, but less attacks for some reason)”
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I’d say Kharns number of attacks comes from the frenzied assault he lays down on his foes, compared to Skulltakers more measured, collected swings. And even there, ‘taker gets one less attack, with the added bonus of damn near double the initiative. Add that to killing blow, and Skulltaker just needs to get there to finish this. (Though it does appear Kharn is more skilled with his signature weapon… for the moment)
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Sadly, what is needed to get him there is some evidence that Bloodletters can survive Plasma rounds to the face, body or extremities.
“Sadly, what is needed to get him there is some evidence that Bloodletters can survive Plasma rounds to the face, body or extremities.”
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But then we’ll need to know if Kharn can even hit Skulltaker. And the debate goes round…
Standard bloodletters, however, cannot even survive bolter rounds, so it’s not a long stretch to assume they cannot tank plasma shots.
However, Skulltaker is far from a normal bloodletter, and I don’t think there are many durability feats for him as a individual. Its really up to us to decide whether to assign feats from standard bloodletters to him, or put his durability on par with the Greater Daemons, ie Bloodthirsters.
“Its really up to us to decide whether to assign feats from standard bloodletters to him, or put his durability on par with the Greater Daemons, ie Bloodthirsters.”
-He only gets the feats he has, which would include those of normal Bloodletters. If it’s hard to get him feats, we just have to live with it. That’s the price we pay for limited knowledge.
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It looks like he has a fair chance, though.
“Not sure if its relevant, but in the game “Space Marine”, whenever you shoot a Bloodletter it teleports towards you to close the gap.”
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Daemons are able to do that by manipulating their grasp on the laws of the material plane. That is no longer something Skulltaker is able to do as he is fully bound to whatever plane the fight is taking place in.
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“To anyone with the codices, stats please, most recent ed. preferably.
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nvm, got em… gimme a sec.”
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WRONG!
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Why are you using stats from two DIFERENT game mechanics?
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WHFB and 40K have different tiers. However, it just so happens that Skulltaker has a 40K statline. If stats are to be compared, they MUST be from the same system as this is how Games Workshop actually tiers both characters within the same context.
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In 40K, Skulltaker has…
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WS:7 – BS:3 – S:4 – T:4 – W:2 – I:5 – A:4 – Ld:10 – Sv:3+*/5+
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Kharn has…
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WS:7 – BS:5 – S:5 – T:4 – W:3 – I:5 – A:5 – Ld:10 – Sv:3+/5+
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This means that GW sees them as equals in terms of close combat skill and speed. These two would go toe-to-toe.
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On the other hand, Kharn has greater marksmanship. Taking their speeds into account, this translates to him being more likely to land his plasma shots than Skulltaker land his sword throws.
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So all in all, that whole stat discussion is simply wrong. Under the same context, the designers of this game see both characters as near equals. So if we were to translate Kharn into WHFB mechanics, his weapon skill and speed would be 9 and 9 respectively.
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In addition, GW sees Kharn as being considerably stronger than Skulltaker. Sure, it might look like a single digit to you, but in 40K, a single digit is the diference between a Bolter round (something that liquifies the insides of people by simply passing up to a meter away), and a Heavy Bolter round (something that levels buildings).
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So once more, these two are near equals. Stop trying to elevate one over the other so absurdly. If Skulltaker has a feat to bullet-time, GW is saying Kharn is capable of the same (and we actually know he is via feats and not just canon extrapolation).
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This brings me back to the plasma. If Skulltaker had a better ballistic skill, his Hellblade would be lethal to Kharn as I would even accept him being able to translate his Skulls for the Skull Throne rule through it. But the BS standing at a 3 vs an iniciative of 5 means that Kharn will indeed dodge any and all throws. Skulltaker can’t say the same about the plasma shots.
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Plasma shots are faster than Bolt rounds off the barrel. With a BS of 5 vs an I of 5, Kharn will land shots as often as he misses. Plasma is an S:7/AP:3 weapon. The only thing that would save Skulltaker from taking lethal damage is his Invulnerability, but 5+ save, and a W:2 is hardly a great advantage vs a rapid firing weapon. If we were to do a tabletop fight between these two with a 36″ distance between them, Kharn would take it without a sweat.
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Round 1 > They each move 6″
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Round 2 > They each move 6″ > Kharn fires a shot and averages a wound that a 5+ has greater chances of not deflecting
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Round 3 > ST moves 6″ > Kharn fires twice and is likely to outright kill ST right there and then
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Round 4 > if Kharn has the I, he Furious Charges ST w/ S:6 – I:6 – A:7 (he will obliterate ST without the demon landing a single hit) if ST has the I, he will charge Kharn (and meet with one more attack than himself, that are one S higher, at the same I. Given how he is likely to have just one wound left, this too seems like folly)
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Yes. there is a chance that if he has the I to make the charge his attacks kill the Betrayer (a Hellblade on a 4+ Rending is no laughing matter), but both being at I:5 means he would have to survive 6 Gorechild attacks that hit on a 2+ with his measly 5+ save. Since ST would charge with A:5 and Kharn has the same save and 3 wounds that have yet to be threatened, the berserker is far more likely to survive even that exchange.
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Skulls for the Skull Throne might change all that, though. But both at WS:7, the Hellblade swings may miss all 5 swings. They may have the same WS, but Kharn has a greater combat ability in Gorechild 2+ hit chance.
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So yea. By GW’s mechanics for 40K, Kharn has all the advantages in this fight. If you all want, I can run a simulation with my own dice to see if that helps in any way here, but I am quite certain that Kharn would come out on top more often than not.
@ Mata: I know, I goofed. but I only had GW’s website to go by, and whenever I clicked on Skulltaker, it only showed the WHFB version’s stats.
with your provided stats, Kharn definitely takes this. btw, you get those straight from the codices?
“btw, you get those straight from the codices?”
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I did. I am staring at both their entries as I type this. They are both from the 4e codices, so their rules are fairly close in terms of publishing dates and rule book context. I’ve also updated their respective RTs in the Topia for future reference.
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One major advatage tabletop Skulltaker has over Kharn is that the berserker does not have immunity to Instant Death. But like I said, it is far more likely that Kharn kills the daemon before it gets to attack.
@Mata
Well I think that’s pretty definitive break down of their stats, which I think is appropriate since both combatants seem to be fairly even fluff wise. So unless anyone thinks Skulltakers kill tallies are more impressive than Kharn’s then I think Kharn conceivably wins this.
That’s just from game mechanics, though. It should not be the final determinating factor by any stretch. All it does is give us an idea of how GW sees these two match-up without having any more usable feats.
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I did, however, neglect to take Skulltaker’s Furious Charge into account. It looks like the fight might go to whoever gets the charge. Still, even if ST gets the charge, he is still going against a WS:7. So his 5 attacks may miss altogether, or make contact with 1-2. Those that do connect have a greater chance to Insta kill Kharn, but the man still has his invulnerable save to fall back onto.
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If we are to extrapolate who gets the charge via fluff, I think it would be Kharn. Like I said before, ST is not warping around the field. Even if he could, Kharn has a Personal Icon to force the demon to be where he wants him.
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Then the pistol and grenade blasts are capable of doing not only damage, but more importantly, screen Kharn and keep the daemon on his toes. One plasma hit, which I am in favor of landing considering the speeds in question, and ST wont want to be hit by it again. Going on the defensive almost assures that Kharn will have the charge, and stats point at whoever has the charge in this fight will win it.
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I’ll run some dice simulations when I get a chance.
With the new rulebook Kharn has a I1.His weapon is threated like a poweraxe, which has the unwieldy rule which means the person wielding a poweraxe has I1.
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Yeh I know, millenia of experience with Gorechild and only I1 with the new rulebook.
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My dice simulation (ignoring the unwieldy rule) actually give draw results because the 2 hit at the same time (both I5 and furious charge only gives +S1 now) and they pretty much instagib eachother on a average basis.ST because of his TK rule and Kharn because he is Kharn and pretty much hits all his attacks.With the unwieldy rule, Kharn looses the majority.
Forgot to add that the poweraxe rule in the new book gives Kharn +S1.So he is S6 now instead of S5.
Wow…They need new codices for chaos (crossing fingers rumours are true), because those rules for Kharn SUCK big time.
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How could Kharn be as successful a butcherer of astartes if he is I1? he now reads like a great walker-destroyer, and an extremely poor infantry-slaughterer. Its just retardation in its purest form.
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Furious Charge also seems to have been uber-nerfed. If any modifier needed to be removed, it was the S:+1. Did it at least go back to S:+1 and A:+1 (doubt it)?
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Those rules certainly gib Kharn quite a bit.
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How have the Pistol and assault rules been changed?
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edit
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Did this site get the rule changes right?
Yup.Kharn is pretty much a waste of points in your game unless you enemy fields alot of armor.The only good thing about the new rules currently is that he can wreck a Landraider in a single turn with a slight above average diceroll.
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Not only Kharn suffers from this, but obviously every HQ unit wielding a poweraxe.The new “challange” rule only makes this worse, because new a high initiative HQ can single out Kharn with a challange and take him down with either a TK rule or sheer load of attacks because Kharn isn’t THAT tough.
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*Furious Charge also seems to have been uber-nerfed. If any modifier needed to be removed, it was the S:+1. Did it at least go back to S:+1 and A:+1 (doubt it)?*
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Furious charge only gives +S1.That’s all it does.Also worthy of notice is fleet on foot.That has become:Either re-roll your run-dice or re-roll your charging-dice.My friend his Nid army just got completely useless with that change.
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*How have the Pistol and assault rules been changed?*
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Plasmapistol still works the same.Assaulting has become a 2D6 adding the results together and that becomes your charge distance.So charging in the new edition has become a bit of a gamble.
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Did this site get the rule changes right?
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Yes it all seems correct from the top of my head.
Based on mechanics, I don’t see Kharn winning, then.
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Assault changing to 2D6″ means that ST will likely close the gap the same turn he gets within firing range. Whereas Kharn had the option of firing twice one turn, staying out of 6″ assault, then firing once and charging for the I:6, now Kharn is better off moving backwards to fire a single shot and see how long it takes for ST to get a good assault roll.
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With higher I, and a 4+ to cause an Insta Kill hit, ST wins the tabletop. Since they already made the poor choice of not giving him Eternal Warrior (OF ALL CHARACTERS!!!), it really is no contest.
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Gimped Kharn is retarded, GW. What a fucking waste. Hope you are fixing it on the new codex. Under 6th, Kharn needs to have Feel No Pain, and Eternal Warrior; have his skill with Gorechild remove the Unwieldy rule; let his Plasma Pistol CC attacks count as a Power Sword (or equivalent) so he can atleast have a base I option; or have Gorechild also count as an Axe of Khorne (extra attacks on 6s) for him to at least be an ok anti-swarm.
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Fix what you broke, GW. Fix what you broke.
@Mata
What icon of Kharns allows for him to stop Skulltaker from warping through the immaterium? If you are referring to the collar I don’t think it will work because Skulltkaer isn’t using sorcery to accomplish this.
@Crimson
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I am not talking about the collar at all. Am talking about the Personal Icon; the Wargear item that allows him to summon Daemons to his side as well as facilitate warp teleportation technologies.
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Semantics may change the functionality of this item in this fight, and we have never seen Kharn use it in fluff. It is merely something he possesses in wargear according to the latest CSM Codex. At the very least, it will distabilize any warping effect ST would use if there were no rules in the fight already attempting to clarify that.
Wow I didn’t know he had something like that, I’m more of a fluff guy myself, well it’s canon so I got no argument there.
Don’t worry, Chaos Space Marines are getting a codex update, probably in October this year.
6th edition also added the Overwatch rule, so Kharn gets to fire at ST if ST charges. He would need a 6 to hit, but he gets 2 shots. It should be noted that even if you declare a charge, and dont roll high enough to reach your enemies, they still get their Overwatch shots. So if ST charges, and Kharn gets one lucky shot off, thats 1 wound gone, and ST might not even get into combat. any more help needed with this, and I can dig out my 6th ed rulebook.
“Don’t worry, Chaos Space Marines are getting a codex update, probably in October this year.”
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Hell yeah.
Mata I had no idea you had such a grasp of the Tabletop
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Anyway Skulltaker has an Initiative of 5 (and correct me if I’m wrong as I know nothing of the Tabletop) which is the characters speed right? While a Daemonette has an Initiative of 6 and is on the level of “Agent from the Matrix” levels of dodging bullets.
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“Clave Arx opened up with its bolters, blazing out across the darkness of the tunnels. All across the battlefield, the other claves did the same, letting rip with tight volleys of bolter rounds. For a few scant seconds, the daemons danced their way through the hurricane of projectiles, weaving around the lines of fire with staggering agility and poise. Some sped off into the heights, shooting skywards like loosed rockets. Others hurtled earthwards, spinning and tumbling into range with smooth, careless smiles on their deadly faces. They crashed to earth, rolling and skidding amongst the grappling armies and scattering men in all directions as they landed. Then the screaming began in earnest. ‘That one,’ said Morvox, breaking into a run towards the nearest fallen daemon and stowing his bolter.
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Fierez got into range first. He fired a series of rounds from his bolter while still charging, each of them perfectly aimed at the creature’s head and body. The daemon evaded the bolts, flickering between them like a broken vid-pict image. It waited for Fierez to come to it, grinning all the while and opening its claws. The Iron Hand mag-locked his bolter, still running, and drew his power sword. The blade ignited immediately as the disruptor roared into life. Then he stopped, dead, arms poised for a blow that never came. Purple flames rippled across his armour, pooling in the joints and bursting out through his helm lenses. The daemon leapt atop him, squatting obscenely on the Space Marine’s static shoulders. With a theatrical flourish, it plunged its claw down, cracking open Fierez’s helm and burrowing deep within. A flash of aether-born light shot out, sweeping from the epicentre like the blast-wave from a void explosion. Fierez’s armour shattered, exposing both metal and muscle beneath. By then Morvox was in range, and he leapt towards the creature as bolter fire from his battle-brothers slammed out, pursuing the daemon as it bounded away from Fierez’s tottering form. The daemon skipped through the lines of fire, shifting in and out of focus as it danced around the lethal torrent.”
Pgs.145-147 Wrath of Iron
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And what might be the most absurd is the fact that daemonettes can, even for a brief period of time dodge the rounds from a mega-bolter attached to a warhound. The ones that put out thousands of bolt rounds of the course of seconds… (if they are actually dodging them)
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“said Nomen, trying to bring the mega-bolter up fast enough. He opened fire, feeling like he was aiming at ghosts. Another one streaked in, diving and wheeling through the lanes of fire.”
Pg.165 Wrath of Iron
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There are other examples of daemonettes bullet-timing but I think this will do.
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Anyway, he is almost as fast as them and Kharn is too so he might have a good chance at dodging the plasma blasts.
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I still have no idea who would win. I would assume that Skulltaker doesn’t get his mount?
“Don’t worry, Chaos Space Marines are getting a codex update, probably in October this year.”
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I’ve been keeping track of ongoing rumours. Sadly, I’ve heard no good rumours pertaining to Kharn in particular. In fact, what I’ve heard is that he is still not getting Eternal Warrior…which is a bit baffling to me given his weapon now forcing him to be an I:1…
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“Mata I had no idea you had such a grasp of the Tabletop”
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I’ve been playing it since early 3e; tabletop has been my main driving force in 40K interest.
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“I would assume that Skulltaker doesn’t get his mount?”
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As the scenario reads, a Jugger or a Chariot would be outside help. Theoretically speaking, Kharn would be able to summon a Jugger to mount himself. I think they ought to be left out for simplicity’s sake.
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That being said, I still see the Plasma Pistol as a big advantage. Big enough to sort-of justify giving ST more survivability by riding either of his mounts. I’d say chariot since it is more unique to him. Being a Khornate Lord with a Personal Icon, Kharn is equally entitled to mount a Jugger. I don’t see how to give one to ST without giving one to Kharn, but the chariot is fairly unique to ST.
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On the Khornate chariot, ST become T:5 W:4 – this is CONSIDERABLY better than T:4 W:2 to survive the plasma onslaught. Tabletop, at least. In fluff, I guess there would be little to stop Kharn from blasting away the Jugger driving the chariot before turning the gun back to ST…
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“Anyway Skulltaker has an Initiative of 5 (and correct me if I’m wrong as I know nothing of the Tabletop) which is the characters speed right? While a Daemonette has an Initiative of 6 and is on the level of “Agent from the Matrix” levels of dodging bullets.”
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Iniciative is GW’s way of establishing speed in close combat. They leave movement speed to be established by other rules such as Fleet or other distance-in-inches modifiers. I have no doubt that Kharn and ST are equally fast, though. The I:5, coupled with same running speed, is a clear giveaway. All of Slaanesh’s children are canonically supposed to be faster than their counterparts, so the Daemonette feats you posted do not surprise me in the least. Regardless, that does very little to help us sort who has the speed advantage here (which is no one).
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To me, it does boil down to the stats. Not exactly game rules since we’ve seen those change much over the years, but the stats have been pretty standard for some time. Kharn has always been made to be faster than the average Marine. At one time, he used to be one of the fastest things on the board with an I:7. This was before GW started making Slaanesh units faster as a theme (they used to make sonic weaponry their only focus). But GW started fleshing out their army themes in 3.5e, and from that time forward, they have been pretty steady in stats.
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Kharn went to be I:5 for a few editions, and they came out with Codex: Daemons and ST with I:5 as well. Since they already had a solid grasp of who they wanted to be at what speed, they are in fact telling us that they mean for these two Khornate special units to be equally fast. To me, that is like they are saying if Skulltaker dodges a Las-shot at point-blank range in one story, Kharn would be doing the same if it was him in that situation instead.
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GW has also made Kharn be a marksman with his pistol and the BS:5 to back it up. That has been a standard stat number since even before CSM got their first 3e Codex. To me, it stands to reason that a man with I:5 (whom the creators have clearly made a bullet-timer) and that also has a BS:5, has at the very least a 50/50 chance of hitting a target that is also I:5.
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Ballistic skill and iniciative have nothing to do with one another on the tabletop, but it does give us a good idea of creator intention and determining such nuances in these sort of debates. That translates to the first statement I made; I think Kharn has the advantage in this fight with that pistol.
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On the other hand, the one ranged attack we’ve seen from ST has been dastardly. Kharn would dodge that with no problem at all. I sincerely think this fight will be determined by a very uncharacteristic-to-Khornate-units ranged advantage.
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With the new rules, GW is saying that Kharn ought to hang back and let SK charge into him. Now Kharn can RF his pistol once, let ST move in, and Overwatch for two more pistol shots. If ST gets a poor charge roll and falls short of the mark, Kharn’ll be able to RF another time. That is potentially 6 plasma shots against 2 wounds and a 5+ invulnerable. So that would be 4(6) plasma shots + 6 S:6 power attacks that hit on a 2+.
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Since I don’t have the book, I don’t know if the Unwieldy rule ignores the advantage of cover. I am going to assume it works like a power fist and Kharn would still be I:1 behind cover, but if that’s not the case, he could be an I:10 by being behind anything. If cover applies, ST has nothing to negate that advantage on a charge and he has even worse survivability than Kharn with his T:4. ST would be obliterated.
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Now, ST has very good rules to support his ability to decimate an oponent in CC, no question about that. If we were strict about using rules for this, ST would win a CC exchange with no trouble at all…particularly under the current rules edition. But fluff has shown us for many years that Kharn is as skilled as ST, and up to 6e, he also had the rules to back it up. Short of the dice gods giving their blessings to its invulnerable save, any individual model that came to CC with Kharn was decimated. He may not have had as broken a rule as a power weapon with 4+ Rending that insta kills, but he most always killed his oponent.
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This is why the Power Axe addendum to Gorechild baffles me. I have never seen Kharn be able to obliterate enemy armour in fluff, much less enough to make him be a dedicated vehicle-hunter in game mechanics. Kharn now can charge a vehicle to deliver 7 S:7+2D6 attacks. He is going to rip appart vehicles as good as Monstrous Creatures. WTF? Where are the rules that make Kharn such a successful Marine butcherer? Those are certainly not it.
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Sorry, went off in a rant again…
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Bottom line is I am uncertain as to where I stand on this. I think these two are equals in fluff, and I think rules are not doing them justice in several points. So this really is very hard to determine without more feats and/or updated rules. Without new material, I see Kharn getting a pistol win, but since that is not very much like Kharn, I don’t know what to think.
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I’m just at a bit of a loss, folks.
*Since I don’t have the book, I don’t know if the Unwieldy rule ignores the advantage of cover.*
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Anybody or anything charging trough difficult/dangerous terrain must roll a 3D6 and add the 2 lowest results together.All Initiative modifiers of the charging party are reduced to I1 regardless of anything.
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As for fixing Kharn, I believe just making Gorechild a chainaxe that ignores the poweraxe rules but still make it a power weapon would be fine.The only thing he always lacked was eternal warrior.Feel no pain is debateble with 6e.FnP now saves on a 5+ diceroll but in return for that it now also works against power weapons.Kharn already has a 5+inv safe so FnP would be meh.It would make average berserkers scary though.
Fluff wise it would be sad to see Kharn get a pistol win, but also don’t forget plasma gets hot. The chances that will actually injure Kharn is slim but there. Also that it is only a 12″ which with movement and an average charge roll he is there.
Also Matapiojo Kharn actually kills tanks better than a MC because now all a MC can do is halve their attacks to make it do double their strength up to ten they no longer get the 2d6 to penetration. I don’t think Kharn does either though unless his weapon has armor bane. Also I haven’t had time to read the CSM codex or their errata, but is his chain ax really a power ax or does it count as a chain sword?
But lets be honest tanks aren’t anything in sixth edition with the addition of haul points almost anything can glance a tank to death. They just aren’t worth the points a land raider only has four hp and is 250. Flyers are the way to go in sixth edition there is no way around that. I am going to pick up a CSM chapter when the new CSM codex hits to go with my Daemon army.
But I digress I got off track depending on the terrain who goes first and if Skulltaker warps in or not I can only see Kharn getting one or two shots off. Even if his ax isn’t a power weapon it wont even cut through his armor but if it is a power ax then he strikes last. Either way he is screwed in close combat.
Fluff wise they are both good warriors and the only person who I can think that Skulltaker has lost to is off the top of my head is god damn Sigmar.
It doesn’t matter though because if you are a worshiper of Khorne in sixth edition you fail well I guess Skulltaker is on of the only Khorne who could cut through a Terminators armor besides a greater daemon. Talk about getting the nerf hammer.
Mathhammer alone has Skulltaker winning, fluff I’m sure he’d still be the winner unless Kharn tricks him by saying he’d love to do honorable combat and then shooting him in the back a bunch of times, but Kharn wouldn’t do that he isn’t much of the betraying type. Lulz
Also if any one is in the Dallas area and wants to play 40k or Fantasy I have a huge daemon army and now I’m starting a CSM army for my ally of course!
@NinjaFresh
More Warhammer Fantasy matches on the site wouldn’t be too shabby to deal with.
Less odds of grinding way too many people’s gears, that way, among other things.
From the 6th book itself.
“Unwieldy: A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous Creature or Walker.”
In other words, “durr, Kharn was too good, we need people to buy other things, let’s change him from a squad destroyer to a CC tank hunter”
The other rageworthy 6th ed chaos nerf is Abaddon’s weapons being AP3 all around. No more terrorizing Terminator Squads. but that is not important to this fight.
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and who knows, maybe they’ll have Kharn “count as” a Monstrous Creature somehow in the new book, or something. They’ve done some stupid stuff before…
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also, @ mata:
4e was my start. You run CSMs and Daemons? anything else?
Ehh I don’t take Warhammer/40k too seriously I think it is a fun table top with some pretty good fluff, but it has gotten expensive and a lot of the fluff is just down right laughable. The fact that it actually calls itself grim dark makes me laugh.
I don’t think Kharn was all that great in 5th edition there were better places to put the points, and I definitely feel that way now that 6th edition has hit. And tank hunts are really just ehhh I mean why even go that rout now that every vehicle has hp? I mean I don’t even see why you should take dreadnaughts any more you can no longer tar pit because people can run away and they are just a point sink.
But Khorne over all has taken a huge nurf and the only reason for that is because close combat as a whole has taken a nurf with over watch being introduced. But you also have to look at it like this at least with night fighting a lot of close combat armies will have a chance to close the gap unless fighting Tau or Dark Eldar.
At this point in time I’d rather take a bunch of daemonettes than bloodletters if only because rend and the fact that they are cheaper.
I think most of my problems come from the fact that I didn’t move on from 4e. I blame that on GW, though. I feel like 4e came out yesterday, but find myself with not one but two updated to the rules that are just throwing me off completely. Before, it took forever for GW to update anything. Now, they seem to do so every 6-12 months.
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“Anybody or anything charging trough difficult/dangerous terrain must roll a 3D6 and add the 2 lowest results together.All Initiative modifiers of the charging party are reduced to I1 regardless of anything.”
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Right. So still at I:1 on current codex even in cover. So much fail.
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“As for fixing Kharn, I believe just making Gorechild a chainaxe that ignores the poweraxe rules but still make it a power weapon would be fine.The only thing he always lacked was eternal warrior.Feel no pain is debateble with 6e.FnP now saves on a 5+ diceroll but in return for that it now also works against power weapons.Kharn already has a 5+inv safe so FnP would be meh.It would make average berserkers scary though.”
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The running rumour for the new CSM codex is that Kharn will strike at I:5, have Furious Charge, Rage, Armour Bane (don’t know what that does), 2+ Deny the Witch (also dont know what that is), and continue to do attacks at I:1 for each model he kills. I doubt they’ll take away the 2+ hit with Gorechild, eventhough the rumour omits that like it does Invulnerable, and other bits.
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And I disagree with you on FnP; it is far from “meh”. It gives you a second save on top of the 3+/5++. If it works on Power Weapons, even better. An I:5 Kharn could benefit from it quite a bit. 3+&5+FnP is great against his crappy plasma rolls. 5++&5+FnP is great against all power attacks. It would certainly make up for the incredibly poor judgement of giving him an I:1 with the current amendment to the codex.
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“Also I haven’t had time to read the CSM codex or their errata, but is his chain ax really a power ax or does it count as a chain sword?”
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CSM FaQ reads:
—
Errata p.48 – Gorechild.
The third sentence should be changed to:
Against models with a WS value, Kharn’s close combat attacks always hit on a 2+.
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Amendments
Page 48 Kharn the Betrayer, Gorechild.
Change the text of the last sentence to read:
“In addition, Gorechild is treated as a Power Axe and, against vehicles, adds an extra D6 to Kharn’s armour penetration rolls.”
—
Since the FaQ makes no mention of him striking at his own iniciative, the amendment makes his CC attacks be at I:1.
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“But I digress I got off track depending on the terrain who goes first and if Skulltaker warps in or not I can only see Kharn getting one or two shots off. Even if his ax isn’t a power weapon it wont even cut through his armor but if it is a power ax then he strikes last. Either way he is screwed in close combat.”
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I know that assault range could average in ST’s favor more often than not, but there is indeed a chance it falls short, opening him to 2 rapid fire volleys and an Overwatch. That’s not something to ignore. regardless, that is just tabletop. Fluffwise, the pistol will have ample opportunities to eliminate the threat before it reaches Kharn.
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“The other rageworthy 6th ed chaos nerf is Abaddon’s weapons being AP3 all around. No more terrorizing Terminator Squads. but that is not important to this fight.”
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The rumour-mill is putting daemon weapons at AP:2.
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Let me just say that I HATE the whole Idea of giving CCWs AP. It overcomplicates something that worked fine for decades. In fact, 6e just sounds like it overcomplicates everything. I am not liking what I’m hearing about it at all.
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…ok, I admit I am kinda happy about allies being allowed again. But thats pretty much it.
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“also, @ mata:
4e was my start. You run CSMs and Daemons? anything else?”
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Necrons
LatD
IG
Kroot mercenaries
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But mainly various combinations of CSMs and Daemons. Most predominantly a Khorne/Nurgle force. With allies, I will likely be running a Word Bearer-esque force again. And with Cultist rumours being so numerous, I’ll likely dust off the LatD units i own.
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“I don’t think Kharn was all that great in 5th edition there were better places to put the points, and I definitely feel that way now that 6th edition has hit.”
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Like I said, I kind of stayed behind with 4e where Kharn was a beast and arguably the best point investment in CSM special characters. I skipped 5e altogether, and 6e is looking like a major crapfest across the board.
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“And tank hunts are really just ehhh I mean why even go that rout now that every vehicle has hp? I mean I don’t even see why you should take dreadnaughts any more you can no longer tar pit because people can run away and they are just a point sink.”
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Yup. I was reading up on that and it sounds like my 2DCCW berserker dread is just major waste. I really like that guy, too…
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“But Khorne over all has taken a huge nurf and the only reason for that is because close combat as a whole has taken a nurf with over watch being introduced. But you also have to look at it like this at least with night fighting a lot of close combat armies will have a chance to close the gap unless fighting Tau or Dark Eldar.
At this point in time I’d rather take a bunch of daemonettes than bloodletters if only because rend and the fact that they are cheaper.”
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I’ve always been a CC focused player, and Overwatch sounds like an outright tilt of balance towards the shooty players – shooty hordes in particular. Now it seems like all my high A# units will be a waste. Why field berserkers if I can have greater number of CSMs, that can do great in both assaulting and Overwatching if needed, are considerably cheaper, and can have template weapons to deal with the sure-to-be-commonplace shooty horde units?
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This all really makes me look forward to the new codex. By the sounds of it all, my CSMs have been nerfed like a motherfucker, and would rather be using the more LatD army to make up for the flaws.
Matapiojo I am also looking forward to the new CSM codex. Also feel no pain is a beast and has been boosted from 5th edition to sixth. In 5th anything that negated an armor save made FnP worthless in fact 5th was by far the worst thing to happen to Plaguebearers, but now in 6th the only thing that can negate FnP is a weapon that is double the toughness score. Take that and plasma being awesome makes plague marines a very nasty enemy. Yes it is an additional save as Matapiojo pointed out. I don’t think you should be too upset about CC being nurfed I mean overwatch is still a snap shot and must be done at BS1, but there are psychic powers that let you do that a regular BS so that can suck.
The things that they really have focused on this edition is ground based mecha has been nurfed I guess they felt that tank based armies of were too powerful or something? I don’t my friend played IG and I always beat him no matter how many tanks he takes even more so now.
Night fighting is pretty big now with a 50% chance to get it on round one till round five, unless you take the warlord category of strategy and get the one that lets you make it night time. And dark eldar have a item that makes it night time.
Also flying vehicles are now the king. Unless you have skyfire you can only hit them on a six because all shots count as snap shot. They can move from 12″ to 36″ choose to shoot either air or ground units, they can not be assaulted, and can take cover saves. Also they can come from table side or deep strike.
Matapiojo depending on how large/how much you like your Necron army they are actually really good in 6th edition.
I don’t really like listening to rumors but a lot of what they have to say about CSM is sounding pretty good. We should have Doombreed plus Doomrider should be making a comeback. I don’t know about everyone else but I really fucking love Doomrider.
Also Chaos Daemons had a small update in White Dwarf, but to be honest I hate White Dwarf I really do and I don’t think anything that comes out of that magazine should be considered an update.
*, 2+ Deny the Witch (also dont know what that is)*
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This is fucking bad.Any unit ingame may make a DtW check.This means, if a psychic power is used on them, they must roll a 6 and then they may negate the effect of a psychic power.This dice roll can become a 5 or higher or a 4 or higher if you have equipment on you that resists psychic power.If Kharn gets this rule it means he will be stripped if his immunity against psychic powers and needs to roll a dice in order to resist a psychic power.
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Rage is decent.It means Kharn gets +2A instead of +1A if he charges.
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Armour bane is something Kharn always had except the effect exsists in his Gorechild profile instead of having the AB rule itself.AB is nothing more then throwing a 2D6 when hitting against vehicle armor.
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I hope Kharn atleast gets his I5 back regardless of hitting with a poweraxe.But the fact that he might loose his immunity against psychic powers, something that IMO defined Kharn the Betrayer pisses me off.
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Ow and you’re right about FnP rule.I seemed to forget you can roll a armor save followed by a FnP save and still roll your inv save.As things are looking now, Typhus seems to be the most intresting named character to have in your army.
Also the fact that Typhus is supposed to turn cultists in to zombies. Just a rumor though.
Also I don’t believe you get to do an armor and then an invulnerable save I thought you could only do that in Fantasy.
Well, it looks to me like Kharn’s odds against Darth Nihilus has been radically altered against him, after all.
Part of me thinks it took matters long enough, part of me thinks this is bad news, still another part of me doesn’t know how much of it should be blamed on Ward and how much of it should be blamed on GW in general.
Its a moot matter all the same.
Does Kharn still have a shot against Skulltaker?
“I don’t think you should be too upset about CC being nurfed I mean overwatch is still a snap shot and must be done at BS1, but there are psychic powers that let you do that a regular BS so that can suck.”
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That’s why I said that shooty hordes will rule the day. If I was playing 6e with current codex, I would use nothing but CSMs. Cheap (as cheap as chaos go), 2CCW AND Boltgun. means I can charge when I need them to, but I can do what appears to be the better option, which is sit them in cover to force assaulters to walk crappy, and Overwatch as needed. Since they are cheaper, I can have more, and since I can have more, thats more d6 I have to roll those 6s.
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CSMs + lesser daemons for the win.
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“The things that they really have focused on this edition is ground based mecha has been nurfed I guess they felt that tank based armies of were too powerful or something? I don’t my friend played IG and I always beat him no matter how many tanks he takes even more so now.”
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They were never an issue with my PFists.
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“Matapiojo depending on how large/how much you like your Necron army they are actually really good in 6th edition.”
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I have about 1100-1200 pts (using 3.5e codex). I’d like to check them out, but my heart is too much Chaos for me to ignore. If Daemons hadn’t been given their own codex it wouldn’t be an issue, but I can’t afford deviating from CSM/Daemons much.
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“I don’t really like listening to rumors but a lot of what they have to say about CSM is sounding pretty good. We should have Doombreed plus Doomrider should be making a comeback. I don’t know about everyone else but I really fucking love Doomrider.
Also Chaos Daemons had a small update in White Dwarf, but to be honest I hate White Dwarf I really do and I don’t think anything that comes out of that magazine should be considered an update.”
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Doomrider FTW! I’ve missed him.
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I haven’t checked out the Daemon update. Will look it up.
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“This is fucking bad.Any unit ingame may make a DtW check.This means, if a psychic power is used on them, they must roll a 6 and then they may negate the effect of a psychic power.This dice roll can become a 5 or higher or a 4 or higher if you have equipment on you that resists psychic power.If Kharn gets this rule it means he will be stripped if his immunity against psychic powers and needs to roll a dice in order to resist a psychic power.”
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This is indeed a big hit for Kharn in pilerverse. I hate it when they hegemonize across the board. There was no reason for the Collar of Khorne to be extrapolated to ALL figures, much less fuff-nerf Kharn’s own ability. Fucking-A.
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“Rage is decent.It means Kharn gets +2A instead of +1A if he charges.”
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Neat. Neat.
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/looks at I:1
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Doh!
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“Armour bane is something Kharn always had except the effect exsists in his Gorechild profile instead of having the AB rule itself.AB is nothing more then throwing a 2D6 when hitting against vehicle armor.”
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I figured it was, but didn’t want to assume.
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“I hope Kharn atleast gets his I5 back regardless of hitting with a poweraxe.But the fact that he might loose his immunity against psychic powers, something that IMO defined Kharn the Betrayer pisses me off.”
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Fully agree. I:5 is the biggest nerf I’ve ever seen on a special character.
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Blessing being changed is a major blow for him here. I see why they had to do it since it messed around with a lot of powers when he joined other units, but its still a major blow here. Now all FP matches with him have magic/powers be successful in a 1 out of 6 chance. Terrible happenings, really.
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“Ow and you’re right about FnP rule.I seemed to forget you can roll a armor save followed by a FnP save and still roll your inv save.As things are looking now, Typhus seems to be the most intresting named character to have in your army.”
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Typhus is looking pretty nasty. I’d build an army around him and his epic survivability.
Some of the rumours are wild and varied indeed, even beteween different reliable sources. That said, by most accounts, Kharn will get to keep his 2+ save against psychic goodness, plus “Kharn strikes at initiative 5, and he gained armour bane. He’s AP3, but for every model he kills (not wound inflicted) he makes an additional attack at initiative 1. Not quite the same as warrior born as it doesn’t keep growing, but it’s very devastating for someone with 8 attacks on the charge.”
That could make him an absolute beast against rank-and-file. Just comes down to what his weapon counts as as to whether or not he’ll be murdering terminators and their ilk too. I suspect he’ll be ap3, or else he’s going to be INSANE.
Wait… people are complaining that he gets a 2+ against psychicness rather than an outright immortality? It equates to much the same thing, but with the massive push that GW seem to be giving psychic powers of late, an out and out invulnerability would mean Kharn’s points increase dramatically and he becomes a prime target for any and all armies that have a reliance on psykers (Eldar and Grey Knights spring to mind, though Blood Angels, Space Wolves, ‘nids and Orks can have some nasty builds with psykers involved too)
—
Its not a massive nerf, and its hardly a rewriting of Kharns whole being. It just takes him back to 3.5 edition. No bad thing, that was the best armybook we ever had.
@Judge J
Does that mean that Chaos Space Marines in general will stop pretending that Anti-Tech Zones won’t do jack$hit against them when the opposite is true?(Seriously, I’d buy the idea if we were talking the World Eaters, or even the Thousand Sons lot, but for the other Chaos Legions?NO EXCUSES, AT ALL!!!)
…Umm… I guess the argument that “Anti-tech only works against pure tech, and demonically possessed or otherwise enhanced tech has at least a mild resistance, if not an outright immunity to such things” so… I don’t know?
@Mata
since 5th, Necrons got kinda nerfed in that Warriors now have a 4+, and the C’tan are now weaker, but they’re still MC elites that you can take 2 powers for. Immortals are now troops, you can take up to 5 Lords and 5 Crypteks for a single Overlord(Named Char or otherwise). and the new units they got are a mixed bag: Lychguard can be downright nasty if used right, flayed ones are still garbage, wraiths can take gear that makes enemies in base contact I1, scarabs rape tanks if they aren’t wiped out immediately, Living Metal rule took a nerf bat to the face, and we finally got some crazy named HQs(Trazyn, Zahndrek, and Obyron are my current faves).
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As far as those rumors of Kharn getting the extra I:1 attacks, that would be badass, especially if he rushes Boyz or Guardsmen: 8 swings, 6 hits, 6 die, 6 more die when Initiative 1 step rolls around. 1 unit, 12 kills. Good. God.
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did somebody mention doomrider
1d4chan.org/wiki/Doomrider
DOOM-RIDAAAAAH!
@Judge J
Either way in general, it’d be wank-worthy bull$hit to outright ignore anti-tech zones unless you mean to tell me someone got Magi-tech’d outright, and we can do without said bull$hit going on if there’s no good justification in it.
NO, the Machine Spirits preventing the Anti-tech zones from taking effect ain’t good enough, unless you’re talking the Grey Knights, of course!*
1.) (The Grey Knights are just one noteworthy example, not so much the only example so much as they’re the most justified!)
>is still unfamiliar with the neutral battleground rule
>is still upset that the Iron Warriors stomped Hogwarts
>is still upset that the Potter-world is extremely low tier like OBD says so
>is being counter productive to the thread as per always
>thinking that people actually give a fuck about such things
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*rolls eyes*
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Also, why are we discussing tabletop mechanics of all things in this thread? Rather than using both combatants powers and feats in teh fluff?
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Anywho, what is Skulltaker’s durability like (or even a Bloddletter’s durability like)?
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Even regular Marines have survived re-entry with ease (I think I calced this to be 8-16 tons or so of explosive force, based on the 1-2 ton figures for Space Marines) as well as tanking heavy bolter fire and surviving battlecannon shells and still trucking (albiet with some injury), the far weaker conqueror cannon having an output of 4 gigajoules (or 0.9 explosive tons) going by the 40K respect thread. Kharn is far above this level of durability
“Also, why are we discussing tabletop mechanics of all things in this thread? Rather than using both combatants powers and feats in teh fluff?”
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Well, in this particular case, mechanics DO help quite a bit. Since there is not that much material to go over for these two particular combatants, we have to rely on creator intent. Thankfully, both come from the same set of governing rules. That gives us a rare oportunity to measure them within context given by the creators of these characters.
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The particular debate on hand comes in the form of current Kharn being significantly nerfed in speed.
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Before I was made aware of the new weapon rules and amendments, there was a solid argument for both to be equally fast. Now we have a bit of contradiction going on in canon. Fluff is telling us that Kharn is indeed that fast, but game mechanics are telling us that he is crazy slow instead. Since all 40K material is equally valid, we must figure out what the intent really is.
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That’s where mechanic rumours come in. If the rumour that Kharn will strike at his stat I:5 is true (and I have to sincerely hope it is true as the character would be rendered canonically retarted otherwise), then the fight here continues as normal with Kharn still having an advantage as far as I can analyze the match. If the rumour turns out to be false, however, Kharn is pretty much going to get his ass handed to him here, and worse, throughout MANY other standing battles in pilerverse.
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“Even regular Marines have survived re-entry with ease (I think I calced this to be 8-16 tons or so of explosive force, based on the 1-2 ton figures for Space Marines) as well as tanking heavy bolter fire and surviving battlecannon shells and still trucking (albiet with some injury), the far weaker conqueror cannon having an output of 4 gigajoules (or 0.9 explosive tons) going by the 40K respect thread. Kharn is far above this level of durability”
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Kharn’s base durability counts for nothing here. The only thing that will save him is by not getting hit. A Hellblade wielded by one of the universe’s most skilled hand to hand combatants is a scary prospect. The only thing that we can use is somethng that’s relatively moot; Kharn’s invulnerability. But to that we have…
.
—
“It is said that when Khorne first created the Daemon U’Zuhl, the Bloodletter’s first act was to chop the head from the first creature he met – another Bloodletter.” / Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.50 – Skulltaker, The Champion of Khorne
—
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That’s an example of U’Zuhl’s skill in cassually besting another creature bred for the sole purpose of slaughter (much like Kharn, I know), but more importantly, how his Hellblade makes a mockery of daemonic invulnerability.
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If Kharn gets hit by this thing, that’s it. His own invulnerability might save off some blows. Sure. Fair enough. But this is when we have to take another game mechanic into consideration.
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GW gave ST a neat rule in his Skulls for the Skull Throne! ability. This rule gives ST a 50% of outright killing anything that doesn’t have Eternal Warrior. In fluff, Kharn reads very much like an Eternal Warrior, but GW has not deemed him fit of that level of endurance for several game editions. Without giving him that protection, GW is telling us that they intend for him to be as mortal as any other being can be, and that they intend for such opponents with exceptional skills/abilities as Skulltaker’s to be able to slaughter Kharn.
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Under the current set of rules, ST needs to land a single hit, and if Kharn misses his less that impressive invulnerable save of 5+ (a 33% chance of success), it is lights out for him.
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Which brings us back to the speed argument. Like I said, I:5s tells us that GW intends for these two to be equally fast. So it stands to reason that Kharn could dodge or parry ST to a stalemate. But GW went back on their canon and gave Kharn an I:1. That means he can no longer stand toe to toe with a being who is classed four speed tiers above him under the same set of rules.
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There is just no room left to argue for Kharn’s behalf if that’s the case. He can’t land a single plasma shot against a target that fast, and he sure as hell can’t dodge his attacks, much less deliver counters.
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“Anywho, what is Skulltaker’s durability like (or even a Bloddletter’s durability like)?”
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Unless the rumour turns out to be true in October, or GW makes another amendment to give Kharn his I:5 back, this fight is utterly lost to the berserker. I don’t really see a point in arguing feats that are slim pickings to begin with if the speed issue isn’t addressed first. If he turns out to be I:5, then we can move on to talk about endurance and invulnerabilities for either party.
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“@Mata
since 5th, Necrons got kinda nerfed in that Warriors now have a 4+, and the C’tan are now weaker, but they’re still MC elites that you can take 2 powers for. Immortals are now troops, you can take up to 5 Lords and 5 Crypteks for a single Overlord(Named Char or otherwise). and the new units they got are a mixed bag: Lychguard can be downright nasty if used right, flayed ones are still garbage, wraiths can take gear that makes enemies in base contact I1, scarabs rape tanks if they aren’t wiped out immediately, Living Metal rule took a nerf bat to the face, and we finally got some crazy named HQs(Trazyn, Zahndrek, and Obyron are my current faves).”
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I am indeed familiar with the new Necron codex, and it does look very promising (though I hate the fact that they now play like tougher Eldar), but like I said a few posts back, there is just too much Chaos for it to hold my attention for too long. Through trying out other armies I have fully figured out that I belong to the ruinous powers. I may like how other armies play, but I LOVE everything Chaos has to offer. With two current codices, I have no time or resources to stray from my worship to the ruinous powers.
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@CC
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I have no inkling about what you are asking. What is it you’re trying to discuss about anti-tech? Whay does it even matter here to begin with?
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“Wait… people are complaining that he gets a 2+ against psychicness rather than an outright immortality? It equates to much the same thing, but with the massive push that GW seem to be giving psychic powers of late, an out and out invulnerability would mean Kharn’s points increase dramatically and he becomes a prime target for any and all armies that have a reliance on psykers (Eldar and Grey Knights spring to mind, though Blood Angels, Space Wolves, ‘nids and Orks can have some nasty builds with psykers involved too)
—
Its not a massive nerf, and its hardly a rewriting of Kharns whole being. It just takes him back to 3.5 edition. No bad thing, that was the best armybook we ever had.”
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I am indeed very much against it. Yes, it is a great bonus compared to everybody else’s DtW, but it still is a nerf to Kharn’s current ability, which sets him appart from all others.
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As it is, Kharn is gifted beyond even the protection of Khorne’s own spawn. That is pretty beefy. There is no checking, there is no chance. If you are looking Kharn’s way (hell, even looking in his general vicinity) to use a power, the power is null and void. That is a major advantage in the game, yes, but it is more crucial to our fictional debates. It is hard enough to argue what counts as a psychic power outside of 40K, now add a resistance element to that argument, and I will see Kharn debates coming to a screeching halt against certain foes. Instant nullification made it incredibly easier for us.
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Does it make for a better gaming experience to give him a 2+ chance? Sure. Does it lower Kharn’s standing as being blessed above others? Not really. Does it lower the level of elevation from his current protection? Without a doubt.
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It may bring us back to 3.5e, but that doesn’t mean I need to be ok with it just because I’ve played with such a rule before. GW should have just thought it through a little better before making him insta immune. They gave us too much of a good thing, and that makes it hard to go back to the old way of doing things.
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Thankfully, there is no fluff for insta immunity that I know of. That would have made it even worse…
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“That could make him an absolute beast against rank-and-file. Just comes down to what his weapon counts as as to whether or not he’ll be murdering terminators and their ilk too. I suspect he’ll be ap3, or else he’s going to be INSANE.”
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I think it silly that Gorechild would be anything lower than an AP:2 if it is going to have a +1D6 armour penetration, but I see GW fully capable of being that ridiculous. That rule could make Kharn a beast against infantry, but only if they remove the Unwieldy from the axe.
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They should just declare it a Daemon Weapon, make all Daemon Weapons AP:2, and give Kharn full control of it.
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I know that’s just wishful thinking for them to validate Wrath of Kharn. I know it would overtly complicate an otherwise simple special character, but my father always said that dreaming costs nothing out of pocket, so I will fully use my budget to that end.
“Kharn’s base durability counts for nothing here. The only thing that will save him is by not getting hit. A Hellblade wielded by one of the universe’s most skilled hand to hand combatants is a scary prospect”
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Don’t Hellblades ignore durability in one form or another?
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Btw, is Kharn no longer completely immune to magic now?
@Stealth
I think what GW is trying to do with Kharn’s 2+ invulnerability to sorcery when equated to the WH 40k universe is that he might occasionally be susceptible to very powerful warp attacks from like a greater daemon of tzeetch or a very high level psyker.
Regarding 2+ Deny the Witch: I see it more as he need to fail bigtime in order to be affected. Kinda like his “I roll a 1 to hit, I smash my squadmates” rule.
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I, too, hope that they fix Kharn so he isn’t garbage, but where GW’s concerned, I wouldn’t be surprised to find they screwed him up more(coughNIDScough).
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@Mata: Yeah, Chaos is awesome, planning on getting them for my Allies/second army. But, I’ll wait till the new codex hits before i start buying anything more than a few marines, and maybe a Prince.
“Don’t Hellblades ignore durability in one form or another?”
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Currently they count as Power Swords per 6e FAQ amendment. Meaning, just AP:3 weapons.
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Which reminds me, isn’t the Power Axe rule making it an AP:2? If so, Gorechild would have still been a threat to Terminators. This was aimed towards the discussion over the extra attacks a few posts back.
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“Btw, is Kharn no longer completely immune to magic now?”
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Currently he is. The CSM FAQ does not change his Blessing of the Blood God rule, just Gorechild. If the running rumour that he is going to get a DtW of 2+ in the new CSM codex is true, then he would no longer be immune. Just crazy resistant. The current rule is the best magic protection he has ever had.
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“@Mata: Yeah, Chaos is awesome, planning on getting them for my Allies/second army. But, I’ll wait till the new codex hits before i start buying anything more than a few marines, and maybe a Prince.”
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The way I am reading things, it’ll be all about “vanilla” CSMs, cultists, and the return of daemons to our forces. You could always buy 2-3 boxes of CSMs, and they will never fail you. Princes are a safe bet as well, but I am not sure you can use them as allies. So waiting for the codex might not be a bad idea at all.
*Which reminds me, isn’t the Power Axe rule making it an AP:2?*
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Yup, Power Axes are AP2.
@Translation from the post before the Lord General’s:
>Recalled too well the Neutral Battleground Rules and is accusing someone of failing to do the same
>Is pissed off that Tenchi Masaki Hax-stormed Sephiroth
>Glorifies OBD failures to note Difficult yet Awesome potency!
>is being counter productive to the thread as per always(Mutual feeling is Mutual!)
>Thinking that people would give a shit over the translations!
That about sums it up! =_=’
@Lord General Mata
I never said that the match was taking place in an Anti-tech world, I meant in general with matches that are location-specified, is all.
Nevertheless, looks like it might be Skulltaker’s match to lose, right?
To be fair, Kharn’s magic defences have been “dropping” since Age of Darkness came out and a sorcerer actually managed to make him just about notice the assault. All it did was anger him, granted, but it had an affect nonetheless.
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Compare to Skulltaker wading through magic without even slowing down in “Blood For The Blood God” and its still pretty damn impressive.
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This match may have to be put on hold till “Betrayer” comes out in honesty, it’ll if nothing else give us a much better idea of Kharn’s durability and resistance to pain.
“Nevertheless, looks like it might be Skulltaker’s match to lose, right?”
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As far as I am concerned, yes. Unless evidence is brought up for ST/Bloodletters being able to irrefutably survive plasma.
@Lord General Mata
If it helps, I can agree with Judge J’s proposal to delay carrying out this fight until Betrayer arrives, its not the 1st time I’d agree to ideas like this, and knowing me, while it probably isn’t gonna be the last, its also not something to expect from me too often, okay sir?
@Judge J
This means weaponry might be affected if they were inside Anti-Tech Zones(which thankfully this fight itself isn’t taking place at, meaning moot point is moot via varying degrees!), right?
@J
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You know me, m’man. I am all for new material being considered. Double that if its for my most beloved of berserkers.
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As for the immunity, I agree that this may be a case of GW getting too far ahead of themselves by giving him full immunity in 4e. He has never been fully immune in fluff. I’m well aware of psykers having some form of influence over him, and him resisting them in return. A DtW of 2+ does seem like a good representation of fluff in the rules. Its just that its such a major gimp of his leetness in pilerverse that I can’t help but be irked by it.
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@CC
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If you’ve followed any of my more recent debates, I am always up for a little patience if we know material is to be published soon. All I said is that from the evidence I do know, Kharn has the advantage due to his ranged attacks. That is not the same as me saying I think the battle is over and done.
@Lord General Mata
Then that basically makes two of us right there, does it not, sir?
I wish to learn more about you in a lot of the more recent debates you’ve taken up, if you are willing to teach me more, okay sir?
If need be, my Buster Chainsword is yours to command if you wish it.
@Mata
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“Currently they count as Power Swords per 6e FAQ amendment. Meaning, just AP:3 weapons.
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Which reminds me, isn’t the Power Axe rule making it an AP:2? If so, Gorechild would have still been a threat to Terminators. This was aimed towards the discussion over the extra attacks a few posts back.”
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Ah, I guess that makes sense then
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I knew there was a reason I liked certain 40K characters. To even fodder tiers, sometimes an opponents durability is irrelevant lmao
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“Currently he is. The CSM FAQ does not change his Blessing of the Blood God rule, just Gorechild. If the running rumour that he is going to get a DtW of 2+ in the new CSM codex is true, then he would no longer be immune. Just crazy resistant. The current rule is the best magic protection he has ever had.”
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Ah okay then, my question was more of a “wait, you’re serious now?” kind of question having read the magic resistance related comments
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Still, magic immunity kind of defined Kharn around here
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@Crimson Sentry
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“I think what GW is trying to do with Kharn’s 2+ invulnerability to sorcery when equated to the WH 40k universe is that he might occasionally be susceptible to very powerful warp attacks from like a greater daemon of tzeetch or a very high level psyker.”
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I guess that would sound more reasonable, someone like Magnus the Red, Lords of Change or Greater Daemons and other such beings on that level being able to ignore his Blessing and magic him up
>I didn’t suggest Tenchi Masaki vs Sephiroth, but whoever did that clearly earned some kind of award, I doubt it was intended to be a spite, grief or stomp-fest personally, but then again this is the guy who shot himself in the foot giving the other guy the benefit of the doubt, in here.
>To even say any tech-orientated nutcase is exempt to outright pretend Anti-tech zones don’t exist, is more or less asking to just completely remove any E.U left over in general, pretty much.(Insofar as what you may as well be doing!)
>I already agreed to let it wait until Betrayer to see what that novel has to say to see if things might look up for Kharn or not, why must you have the nasty habit to mis-interpret too many of my intentions or think of which objective was the primary objective but you went for the wrong one?
>As a sign of gratitude + respect to the Lord General Mata, I suggest we just take the bickering potency outside of this thread, or at least talk to Judge J about it outside of there anywho and save us all the trouble of mutual bellyaches on our parts.
This is pretty much what I am responding in case the post before mine gets the translations all frakked up, A la Carl Macek-ification of the worst kind!
@ Lord Mata: Power Axes are Str +1, AP2, Melee, Unwieldy.
@ Cmndr. Cross:
>Getting into heated, off topic, discussions
>using “>” a lot
>elegan/tg/entleman?
What does Melee mean again?
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Is that just a new categorization for close combat weapons?
Yup. that’s it…
Skulltaker would win this one.
1) In the game skulltaker’s attacks instantly kill any non vehicle model on a D6 roll of a 4,5,6 and ignore any armour the target is wearing,
2) Skulltaker himself is also immortal
3) Kharn the betrayer is using a power axe which causes him to strike last in combat.
4) Anyone who’s played the Space Marine video game knows that bloodletters can appear out of nowhere as well as blink around.
“Skulltaker would win this one.
1) In the game skulltaker’s attacks instantly kill any non vehicle model on a D6 roll of a 4,5,6 and ignore any armour the target is wearing,
2) Skulltaker himself is also immortal
3) Kharn the betrayer is using a power axe which causes him to strike last in combat.
4) Anyone who’s played the Space Marine video game knows that bloodletters can appear out of nowhere as well as blink around.”
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Have a care an at least skim over the posts ahead of yours before commenting. If you had bothered, you’d see that your observations are either wrong or pending more info.
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The warping you are talking about is the natural ability all daemons posses to breach the barrier to the materium. Alas, VG mechanics are not canon. Even then, ST is anchored to the battlefield according to the scenario. He has no special warping abilities as he is not breaching the materium to be in the arena. Thus, he is particularly exposed to plasma fire.
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If he had been left in the immaterium to give him his ability to “Deep Strike”, Kharn has a Personal Icon to summon ST right where he would best be able to use his pistol.
Damn I have missed alot… wow, has it degraded to some people using video-game logic for the skulltaker? If a daemon is on an actual daemon world, or in this case a world inside of the warp they CANNOT phase in and out of the warp to get closer, they can only use their abilities in which they have from the beginning.
Well I am placing my money on the good ol Kharn, his plasma pistol gives him a massive advantage, and one or two well placed shots could end the skulltaker if they land.
@Jwlynas “To be fair, Kharn’s magic defences have been “dropping” since Age of Darkness came out and a sorcerer actually managed to make him just about notice the assault. All it did was anger him, granted, but it had an affect nonetheless.
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Compare to Skulltaker wading through magic without even slowing down in “Blood For The Blood God” and its still pretty damn impressive.”
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Well that is before he actually a champion of the Blood God and before the Siege of Terror so it probably doesn’t count yet.
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Though I agree on waiting for Betrayer.
Can’t belive I’m only just now reading this thread… how did it slip by me…
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Anyway I do have something relevant to point out, I think.
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Kharn is only initiative 1 if his controlling player chooses to use Gorechild in close combat. In 6th edition if a model has more than one close combat weapon the owning player may still choose which one the model uses. Kharn has a plasma pistol which is also a close combat weapon. Meaning Kharn can still attack at Initiative 5 in-game if he beats the enemy to death with his pistol instead of his axe.
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As far as in-game goes this means Kharn is still just as good at fighting horde armies such as IG, Orks and Tyranids, their armor saves are worthless to begin with, and I know better than most, I play Orkz afterall and when I am allowed armor saves, I usually save 1 or 2 out of every few dozen I roll in a game. Thanks to the changes to the Rage Special Rule Kharn also has more attacks on the charge, and he still gets the +1 from two close combat weapons as the Power Axe does not have the Specialist Weapon special rule.
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So while Kharn can still rape hordes/poorly armored enemies (especially enemies with no armor saves at all, i.e. kroot, gretchin, etc…), he will struggle against marines, eldar, tau, etc… And while it might seem tempting to send him up against Terminators since Gorechild is AP 2, think again. Pretty much every terminator in the game is an Infantry Character, so lets look at a scenario of this combat:
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Kharn and his unit charge an enemy unit of Terminators. Now, unless you have another character in Kharn’s unit you can choose whether or not to issue a challenge, if you do the opposing player will always accept and send a fodder terminator (probably one with a storm shield unless your fighting vanilla beakies with lightning claws) against Kharn. This makes Kharn worthless as he can only kill 1 enemy model (if he doesn’t die first) in this player turn. Should you choose to not issue a challenge, the enemy can have one of his terminators issue a challenge instead. If you decline the challenge he can choose one of your characters, that character is disallowed to attack in this player turn.
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But lets say Kharn does accept the challenge (this also applies to if there is no challenge issued at all by either side) once he has won the challenge (if he does that is) he will be “safe” until the opposing players assault phase, and most of his own unit has probably been obliterated by the terminators. There’s a new rule in 6th edition called Precision Strikes that applies to all characters: any roll of a 6 to hit in close combat by a character gets to be allocated to a specific enemy model by the controlling player instead of wound allocating like normal. This means while Kharn is waiting to attack at I1 with Gorechild (as attacking at I5 with his pistol is nearly worthless against Terminators), all rolls of 6 to hit made by the Terminators will be allocated specifically to him, along with any other wounds that might naturally head in his direction. Even if he somehow miraculously survives all of these AP 3 attacks, any unit of Terminators (that once again is not vanillas with lightning claws) worth its salt will have a Thunderhammer/power fist or two to bash Kharn into the dust at I1 (which is espescially dangerous because unless he is alone or with only 1 other model left in his unit the Terminators will almost never have to roll to hit against his WS7).
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Do not ever let Kharn engage a full unit of terminators again….
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Back to the debate at hand, using his Plasma Pistol means Kharn can still keep up with ST, however with a limited number of options. Of course it wouldn’t be easy for Kharn to beat ST to death with a pistol now would it?
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What I see happening is:
ST attacks, Kharn blocks the Hellblade with his Pistol, the Hellblade cuts through the pistol and ruptures the fuel canister causing a plasma explosion, damging/breaking ST’s Hellblade, leaving ST wide open to a clean stroke from Gorechild, as I doubt ST will be nearly as effective a fighter with a broken sword. (Of course this is under the assumption that the plasma explosion doesn’t kill either or both of them as well. Though I doubt it will do much more than severely injure either of them at worst.)
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Unless Hellblades are indestructible or something like that, I don’t see it surviving the gargantuan levels of heat that plasma puts out.
Given that Hellblades are extensions of their wielder’s will, a broken one would be fairly easily fixed just by focusing. Much like his Armour repairs itself without issue in “Blood for the Blood God”.
@Judge J
How fast can Skulltaker particularly be able to refocus his(?)/its will onto repairing the blade itself?
Fast enough to still give The Betrayer issues in this match?
P.S: Are you back at the war efforts with SPN vs Skulduggery Pleasant, for that matter, since we’re in need of your aid right now?
“Much like his Armour repairs itself without issue in “Blood for the Blood God”.”
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I’m afraid I don’t read Warhammer Fantasy novels so you’ll have to quote it for me.
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Also I would have to see that that isn’t a property unique to his Iron Hide daemonic gift. Seeing as how he is the highest ranking Herald of Khorne, it is entirely likely that his armour was forged with that trait in mind.
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“Some Daemon Princes were once mighty Lords from a Space Marine traitor Legion or renegade Chapter, and their bodies are still clad in the power armour of the Adeptus Astartes. Other Daemons may be blessed by their patron god with an impenetrable metal skin or a suit of Warp-forged armour.” Codex Chaos Daemons pg.73
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As to the hellblade, the closest thing I was able to find to resembling them being “extensions of their wielder’s will” is:
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“The feared Bloodletters, warrior-daemons of Khorne, wield these powerful Warp-forged blades. On very rare occasions a mortal has bested one of these Daemons and claimed this potent weapon. A jagged metal sword, blackened but edged with glowing red embers, a hellblade is the physical manifestation of the sheer bloodlust of the user. Few mortals have the strength of will to wield such a weapon. However, the more blood it sheds the more powerful it becomes, glowing with ever-stronger crimson hues as blood flows.” Black Crusade core rulebook pg.166
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Which I will admit gives me pause, it being the “physical manifestation of the sheer bloodlust of the wielder” makes me think it is plausible that ST could auto-fix it.
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However, Black Crusade also says:
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“The sword is infested with a malign spirit, however, and never wishes to be put away.” Black Crusade core rulebook pg. 166
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Infested with a malign spirit can only mean it has had an entity bound to it just like a Daemon Weapon (granted the spirit in question is much weaker than the daemons used in daemon weapons, for whatever reason it may be worth pointing out.)
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Which means just like when a Daemon Weapon is destroyed the spirit will(/should in theory) either leave or manifest itself:
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“Uncanny Resilience: Regardless of their appearance or apparent construction, daemon weapons are extraordinarily difficult to damage. They count as having a natural armour of 20, and will not be destroyed if used to Parry or are Parried by weapons with Power Fields or similar effects. If a daemon weapon is somehow destroyed, roll immediately on Table 6-3: Perils of the Warp (see page 211). On any roll which indicates a daemonic manifestation, it is the daemon within the weapon which is released, at which point it will likely attempt to slaughter every living creature it can find.” Black Crusade Core Rulebook pg. 194
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Also this is all under the asumption that the plasma explosion just breaks the sword, rather than destroying both it entirely and both ST and Kharn’s arms involved in the block, which is just as likely an outcome as well.
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However there is one more source on Hellblades that I want to research that I currently do not have access to, I will get back to you on that once I do. (Although I’m not entirely sure how much it might contribute, for all I know it might have nothing of value at all.)
Okay, got the 6th ed. CSM codex, so here are Kharn’s updated stats.
Weapon Skill: 7 | Ballistic Skill: 5 | Strength: 5
Toughness: 4 | Wounds: 3 | Initiative: 5
Leadership: 10 | Armour Save: 3+
Wargear: Power armour(3+ Armour save), Plasma Pistol, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Aura of Dark Glory(5+ Invulnerable Save)
Warlord Trait: Hatred Incarnate(Hatred: Re-rolls all misses in first round of each combat)
Special Rules: Champion of Chaos(must always issue and accept challenges, victory grants a chaos boon roll), Fearless(passes morale tests), Furious Charge(+1 strength on the charge), Mark of Khorne(Rage[+2 attacks on the charge] and Counterattack[when charged, chance to get +1 attack] rules), Veterans of the Long war(Hatred: Marines, +1 leadership[already in his stats]), The Betrayer(To Hit rolls of 1 go at his allies, not himself), Blessing of the Blood God(2+ Deny the Witch for him AND HIS SQUAD, Force weapons cannot inflict Instant Death).
Gorechild: Strength: +1, AP 2, Melee, Armourbane(+1 d6 against vehicles), always hits on a 2+, NOT unwieldy.
The one bane of him that I’ve encountered when i used him(1 battle so far, but still noticeable) was that he is not immune to instant death if it isn’t from a force weapon, so he either has to make his 5+ Invulnerable or die(Parasite of Mortrex turned him into 2 Ripper swarms).