Suggested by X
Perhaps three of the most well known antagonists today, the Terminators, Xenomorphs and Zombies will face off against each other.
The fight happens in New York during the time of Skynet and an army of xenomorphs also moved in.
NOTE: Terminators have 50,000 units. Xenomorphs arrive as an army of 500,000 and there are 5 million zombies.
Which group would win?
@Red
There is also speculation as to how they see. The Xeno in the first movie had a semi-transparent dome, and what looked like eye sockets could be seen. While the Xenos in the second movie had straight black domes. This is because the first Xeno was a very young Xeno, and once they get older, their domes lose their transparency. The dome are said to act like a one way mirror, you can’t see in, but they can see out. Giger said that the reason for this was to enhance their menacing appearance by making it so that you can’t tell whether or not they are looking at you.
“There is also speculation as to how they see. The Xeno in the first movie had a semi-transparent dome, and what looked like eye sockets could be seen.”
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They took this design out later. There was a human skull underneath there. this was later changed.
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“While the Xenos in the second movie had straight black domes. This is because the first Xeno was a very young Xeno, and once they get older, their domes lose their transparency. ”
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This doesn’t make much sense because we see in later movies those that only been alive for a few hours have the same exact look as the ones from the second movie. This includes AvP and Aliens: Resurrection.
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“Giger said that the reason for this was to enhance their menacing appearance by making it so that you can’t tell whether or not they are looking at you.”
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Unfortunately Giger doesn’t work on the Aliens series anymore. The official word is that the Xenos are blind and hunt via sound, vibrations, and smell. That’s why they tend to know your location no matter where you are as long as you are in the general vicinity. This is further seen when Ripley 8 had Call slowly move her hand in front of her face. She heard the movement and felt the vibrations of its air friction behind her eyes. However different castes have different senses. For example the Predalien can see and I believe the Runner can see as well.
@Red
I know. This was what some have speculated.
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“ I’ve already addressed this several times. And machines don’t have common sense, they run on logic. “
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Semantics. Her logic was less common sense-like than the T-8xx’s shown in the movies and TSCC series then if you prefer it put that way. Terminators are mostly logical but not always completely so. Most of the terminators show personality quirks of one kind or another; the ones portrayed by Schwarzenegger had a subtle but noticeable sense of humor and a stubbornness that would not let them give up regardless of programming, the T-X had that impatience and hint of petulance when things did not go her way, and Cameron had her quirky sly sense of humor (similar to Allison Young, who she was modeled after) and a faint air of sadness as well as a bond to John beyond just programmed orders. The T-1000 did not really have any personality beyond a possible sadistic streak, and the T-1001 who assumed the identity of Catherine Weaver was almost as bland but had a faint air of smoldering anger and a slight but noticeable prissy disciplinarian manner. It all fits with the themes of machine evolution and transcending ones limitations that are central to the movies and series.
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“ “The T-850 is not a suicide bomber by design, but has the capability to do so. Like a Predator, it’s not a suicide bomber by nature, but if hurt and unable to do anything else, it’ll set off that nuke to achieve it’s goals.”
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Except for the fact that the Predator only ever use their wrist bombs when they have no choice. So by design, they are suicide bombers as a last ditch effort. “
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Exactly like what the T-850 did. It was going to be destroyed either way, so it chose the way that would also destroy the T-X and so complete its mission. If the T-850 saw another way to accomplish its mission that did not involve being destroyed in the process it would have done that instead.
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“ It doesn’t matter how familiar they are with Skynet. Seeing as how you keep praising Skynet for its intellect and advanced tactics, it should have had no problem finding a rag tag miltia hiding in holes. Xenos have the advantage of being undetectable. Something the humans are far from. And since there will be multiple Queens, there will be multiple nests. “
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On the contrary, it matters a lot. One thread that is central to all the movies is that it was John Conner’s knowledge and training that was the thing that allowed the resistance to survive and to get the upper hand in the end. True, it should have no trouble finding a “rag tag militia hiding in holes”; too bad for Skynet that that is not what it was facing due to Connors influence and had to work harder… like making infiltration units. Multiple nests could be a problem in that one nuke would not take every xeno at once, but on the other hand it reduces the numbers in any particular nest which increases the chance of defeating the xenos in detail.
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“ First of all, how desperate are you that you are trying to weaken the Xenos with units that are not combat effective at all. “
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Not desperate at all; I just find the idea of xeno nests without facehuggers and eggs very out of character with the movies so when facehuggers were mentioned by others it seemed natural they would be around somewhere to explain the large numbers of other xenos since they usually do not start the movies with shiploads of adult stage xenos. My mistake for not re-checking the lineup lists to see if they were on there.
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“ Second, FP rules state that all combatants have general knowledge of the area and other combatants. Meaning the Xenos know they are in a city with underground tunnels, and are fighting robots and walking corpses. “
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They state that everyone knows who is on each side and some general information about the enemy; it does not make them actually familiar with them or tell them what is outside the immediate combat zone.
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“ How would they know what was coming if the Xenos were able to fool every type of sensor the Terms have? And T-850 is not a suicide bomber, Skynet has those already. You can’t just make up things. “
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Xenos can be seen with normal vision, they are not invisible. Terminators would not be spooked by some atavistic fear of the décor like normal humans are so they would not be fooled into thinking that their minds are conjuring up monsters out of nothing by shadows. This means they would see any little twitch in their field of vision without mistaking it for nerves. Even if the xenos were perfectly still their shapes could still be picked out from the background to some degree the same way they would any other stealthy enemy, and the multi-spectral vision of the terminators would help with that (infra-red is not just thermal, there is infrared light too, along with ultraviolet).
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“ “And how many Xenos would die in the process of attempting to destroy a trio of Terminators in the hive? I’d say 50-60 ish, before they actually are swarmed and the T-850 makes a last ditch effort to kill as many Xenos as possible and ejects the hydrogen fuel cell to use as a bomb.”
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“ Your opinion is completely biased. “ “
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That is hardly unique on this board and goes both ways. It is also irrelevant; the debate is about the subject and the facts, not the debaters. To top it off the point about the terminators being more efficient fighters than the xenos was not even addressed in that reply.
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“ No. The Terms were easy to show in movies because they were man sized. The Queen’s abilities were not accurately depicted due to tech limitations. A 20 foot alien than can run at about 30 mph cannot be done by using a suit or puppet. “
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Funny, the Japanese managed it with even bigger monsters like Godzilla back in the 1960’s using rubber suits and tiny budgets. Newer but still pre-CGI movies with bigger budgets do a better job than the old Godzilla stuff too. If the writer really wanted to show a xeno queen running at 30mph they would have been able to do it without much problem.
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“ So yes, Bishops sensors are more advanced. “
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Whatever scanning he was doing that was being interfered with by the hive environment (radar perhaps?) does not factor in here since the terminators do not use active scanning because they are infiltration units and a person emitting RF energy or whatever without something like a tac radio to explain it would be too obviously an imposter. Score one for the ‘older’ less finicky tech.
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“ You’ve missed the first half of that sentence. Yes, the second sentence prevents time travelers. But the first sentence merges timelines. “
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The timeline rule reads more like the timelines are merged forward only from the start of the scenario, not like they are merged in both directions so two different tech trees would still be different, not merged together.
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“ And about the Xeno strength feats. I have to watch the movies to get solid proof. I remember them tearing down metal doors with ease, but my word doesn’t cut it. “
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So do I, but it was not a quick and simple rake and rip, it took a little while for a bunch of them to pound and claw a solid heavy metal door down from what I remember, at least long enough to make shutting and locking them as a delaying tactic worthwhile anyway. Non-liquid terminators do much the same thing, and liquid metal ones usually just flow through small holes or vents.
Another theory about xeno senses is that they can detect electrical fields, a little like the shark electrical sense. If true it may also explain why they tend to cut power lines, they may find them annoying, which is more likely than doing it to kill light they cannot even see and probably would have no concept of unless they happened to be of a type with eyes.
Only problem is the reason they can spread and cause such a problem, is because they can infect hosts which can move freely around in populations and reproduce and spread in that manner. In the nuclear wasteland that they are in, they are only 500,000, and have no means of reproduing. There’s nothing left, and in this scenario, no humans either. The largest thing shown alive I think in the future was a rat (besides humans obviously which aren’t in the scenario), which I’m pretty sure is a few sizes too small for a facehugger. So, just Terms, which can’t be used, and Zombies, which aren’t suitable for being hosts. They can make bases, but they have no real means to expand in the manner they did in that section because there is nothing to make more units to do such a thing. They only have the 500k available to play with.
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Which also means they won’t have any new generations to learn from any mistakes they make from the last generation. If they all gather into a few big hives which are destroyed, like the humans did, they don’t get a second chance to learn and make smaller ones or spread out more, because there are no next generation for them. No system of natural selection for them because they have no means of reproducing.
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The Xenos had no trouble comprehending the fact that air ducts are an easy way of travel
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Cats and ferrets and racoons and all sorts of animals figure out this too. Doesn’t make them smart.
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I wanted to address the bullets. Now, not saying they are the same (Because the ammo is 10mm x 24mm), but the 10mm x 25mm round (10mm auto) has a muzzle velocity of ~440m/s and an energy of about 750 ft-lbs. Agreed, it’s caseless, so more to powder and advancements would help, lets just double it. So, say the 10mm x 24mm round has a velocity of 880 m/s and a energy of 1,500 ft-lbs.
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In comparison The 7.62 x 51mm round’s average muzzle velocity is 825 m/s and has a muzzle energy of 3,500 ft-lbs. So, the round from the Morita delivers over twice as much energy (power) to target and are about the same speed with these. And that’s ignoring any advancements in ammo from the Mobile Infantry. That’d just be using the 7.62 rounds of today.
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And even using the smaller 7.62mm x 39 mm AK-47 round, it’s averages about 700 m/s but delivers about 2200 ft-lbs of energy.
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Sources for the ammo info:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x51mm_NATO
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x39mm
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2) when the T-850 had no other choice. It was going to die anyway because it was holding up the door, it had no weapons, severe mobility limitations and the T-X was going for John and Kate. If it had any other way of destroying the T-X, it would have done it.
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You can’t make that assumption. There is nothing stopping the T-850 from taking one undamaged fuel cell and using it as a weapon and function off the spare. It’s either capable of this act, or it is not. And because we have it, in the movie, it’s more than possible for a T-850 to use this manner of attack. It’s capable of making such an attack and it’s capable of using it against targets. It’s done so already in the movie. I’m sorry if this makes it very easy for T-850s to destroy large amounts of xenos, but that’s what it is.
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Traditional animation in 1986 would have looked terrible, as would stop motion, scaled models would be problematic because the Queen was in close proximity to Ripley and the whole Queen was visible, forced perspective makes no sense because of the amount of contact being made. The Queen is AvP was CGI and if that was the first time someone saw a Queen, they would laugh at the original. And I’m not using my idea of what they should be, I’m using what they have been said to be.
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That’s nonsense, because I think the Queen looked much better in the 1986 version than any other version. Some amazing animation came out in that time period, and it looked amazing. The ED-209, The Terminator movie used stop motion and it looked awesome for it. The CGI is what looks silly and fake.
This above paragraph also shows you haven’t seen just how well something like forced perspective can work, even in modern movies. Most of the hobbits in LOTR weren’t shrunk by CGI. All forced perspective, having children in some scenes ect. You underestimate how well these things could be done.
On top of which, this part is sort of derailing, and as it stands, it still doesn’t matter what you think should have happened, all that matters is what did happen in that movie. That’s what you have to use to show for it.
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The scan shows the man asking Bishop if his sensors picked up anything ahead when the area was clearly visible.
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For all anyone knows right now, synthetics might only have vision and sound that are slightly better than a humans. Those would still be considered sensors, and he could be experiencing interference, so his display is hazy and he can’t see well for whatever reason. It really doesn’t let us know how they compare, and it definatly doesn’t prove in any way shape or form that Bishops sensors are more advanced than a T-800s.
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The neutral arena incorporates a merged timeline for all parties involved parting from the point they were ported in.
As for the merged timeline, the merged timeline starts from the scenario. So, Terminators, Xenos, and Zombies, all on one timeline, completely separate from anything
It’s not saying that Synthetics will ever be built, and that they will build on Terminator technology thus making them more advanced. Plus, even if it were, it’d mean that the Synthetic shown in the san would no longer apply as he’s not from the same timeline that this takes place in. He’s not suddenly got Terminator tech in him in that timeline. And thus any feats wouldn’t apply or be useful for comparison.
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Except for the fact that the Predator only ever use their wrist bombs when they have no choice
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In AVP1, the lead Predator activates it, and throws it into the hive before escaping with the human in the artic. I’m sure he could have used plasma other means, as he was uninjured and had use of his weapons. He even got someone to help him out.
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The Pred in the actual movie used it as a regualr bomb, but because they had a very easy escape route
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So, if the T-850 has an easy escape route out of the hive, then he can use such a device, but if escape is less than easy, suddenly it’s unavailable? That makes sense. Before you said only when it was at the last ditch effort, now it’s only when too easy to not use?
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Put a million of each in the battle and see who would win.
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Bugs, last I checked, Xenos still have no flying units, nothing like the Tanker, or units capable of one-shotting spaceships with their plasma farts, kamakazi bugs, scorpion bugs which also shoot plasma, ect, ect. They are more than capable of winning against Xenos.
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And those are just from the movies. Not counting the ones from the book, which are supposed to be far more impressive.
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@RedRum:
Please, just make a claim, and highlight the material to support your claims. I have Earth Hive, I can read it by myself. Just the facts.
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I assume you’re agreeing with me.
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In a sense. I just wanted to point out how having ‘common sense’ isn’t necessarily an advantage, as it’s often wrong and leads to mistakes. Read those links and you’ll see that common sense is sometimes the last thing you want to use.
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This doesn’t make much sense because we see in later movies those that only been alive for a few hours have the same exact look as the ones from the second movie
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This isn’t true. The ones from Aliens are the only ones to have the ridged heads, and the later ones return to having a dome shape. This might support the theory.
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Aliens (1986)
www.yourprops.com/Alien-Warrior-other-replicas-movie-props-Aliens-1986-prop-46082.html
Alien Resurrection
coolpapaesreviews.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/alien-resurrection-screen-1.jpg
AVP (Also, especially evident in the ‘grid’ xeno )
www.dvdactive.com/images/reviews/screenshot/2005/11/avpr1_4.jpg
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“Semantics. Her logic was less common sense-like than the T-8xx’s shown in the movies and TSCC series then if you prefer it put that way. Terminators are mostly logical but not always completely so. Most of the terminators show personality quirks of one kind or another; the ones portrayed by Schwarzenegger had a subtle but noticeable sense of humor and a stubbornness that would not let them give up regardless of programming, the T-X had that impatience and hint of petulance when things did not go her way, and Cameron had her quirky sly sense of humor (similar to Allison Young, who she was modeled after) and a faint air of sadness as well as a bond to John beyond just programmed orders. The T-1000 did not really have any personality beyond a possible sadistic streak, and the T-1001 who assumed the identity of Catherine Weaver was almost as bland but had a faint air of smoldering anger and a slight but noticeable prissy disciplinarian manner. It all fits with the themes of machine evolution and transcending ones limitations that are central to the movies and series.”
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All of these traits were programmed in to make the Terms as human like as possible. A machine does not possess common sense.
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“Exactly like what the T-850 did. It was going to be destroyed either way, so it chose the way that would also destroy the T-X and so complete its mission. If the T-850 saw another way to accomplish its mission that did not involve being destroyed in the process it would have done that instead.”
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And this was the ONLY time a Terminator self terminated. Predators have done it several times, so much so that it is a valid tactic for them in a debate. Canon has stated several times that they cannot self terminate.
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“On the contrary, it matters a lot. One thread that is central to all the movies is that it was John Conner’s knowledge and training that was the thing that allowed the resistance to survive and to get the upper hand in the end. True, it should have no trouble finding a “rag tag militia hiding in holes”; too bad for Skynet that that is not what it was facing due to Connors influence and had to work harder… like making infiltration units. Multiple nests could be a problem in that one nuke would not take every xeno at once, but on the other hand it reduces the numbers in any particular nest which increases the chance of defeating the xenos in detail.”
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Making infiltrator units is hardly working harder if Skynet’s main mission was to infiltrate and eradicate the resistance. What happened to the reason the resistance survived was because Skynet was “destined” to fail? Now they survived because they were better?
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“Xenos can be seen with normal vision, they are not invisible. Terminators would not be spooked by some atavistic fear of the décor like normal humans are so they would not be fooled into thinking that their minds are conjuring up monsters out of nothing by shadows. This means they would see any little twitch in their field of vision without mistaking it for nerves. Even if the xenos were perfectly still their shapes could still be picked out from the background to some degree the same way they would any other stealthy enemy, and the multi-spectral vision of the terminators would help with that (infra-red is not just thermal, there is infrared light too, along with ultraviolet).”
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“Also available is a spectrum and a specifically tuned mode, EM field detector, used to control Xenomorphs. ”
—
avp.wikia.com/wiki/Bio-Mask
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Unless they have a specifically tuned EM vision mode, they are shit outta luck.
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“That is hardly unique on this board and goes both ways. It is also irrelevant; the debate is about the subject and the facts, not the debaters. To top it off the point about the terminators being more efficient fighters than the xenos was not even addressed in that reply.”
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Do you ever read all the comments? Go read them and notice how I agreed that my opinion is also biased. And what, because I didn’t pointlessly argue with Tech about how many Xenos one Term can kill, that means something? This whole thread is me arguing for the Xenos you idiot.
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” If the writer really wanted to show a xeno queen running at 30mph they would have been able to do it without much problem.”
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James Cameron had to wait for technology to advance before he could accurately depict what he wanted in Avatar. Just because the writer or director wants to portray something, doesn’t mean they can. And this argument is really just wasting time. We have feats for the Queen and that’s what we use. I’m gonna drop this one.
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“Whatever scanning he was doing that was being interfered with by the hive environment (radar perhaps?) does not factor in here since the terminators do not use active scanning because they are infiltration units and a person emitting RF energy or whatever without something like a tac radio to explain it would be too obviously an imposter. Score one for the ‘older’ less finicky tech.”
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Prove this. With a link and/or quotes.
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“So do I, but it was not a quick and simple rake and rip, it took a little while for a bunch of them to pound and claw a solid heavy metal door down from what I remember, at least long enough to make shutting and locking them as a delaying tactic worthwhile anyway. Non-liquid terminators do much the same thing, and liquid metal ones usually just flow through small holes or vents”
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I need to watch the movie before I respond.
” This above paragraph also shows you haven’t seen just how well something like forced perspective can work, even in modern movies. Most of the hobbits in LOTR weren’t shrunk by CGI. All forced perspective, having children in some scenes ect. You underestimate how well these things could be done. ”
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A good example of forced perspective and in-camera tricks is the music video in this link, it contains no CGI or mats at all, just clever camera angles, props, and a large enough studio to film at various distances in a single shot.
“Another theory about xeno senses is that they can detect electrical fields, a little like the shark electrical sense. ”
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I’ve read this somewhere too.
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“Only problem is the reason they can spread and cause such a problem, is because they can infect hosts which can move freely around in populations and reproduce and spread in that manner. In the nuclear wasteland that they are in, they are only 500,000, and have no means of reproduing. There’s nothing left, and in this scenario, no humans either. The largest thing shown alive I think in the future was a rat (besides humans obviously which aren’t in the scenario), which I’m pretty sure is a few sizes too small for a facehugger. So, just Terms, which can’t be used, and Zombies, which aren’t suitable for being hosts. They can make bases, but they have no real means to expand in the manner they did in that section because there is nothing to make more units to do such a thing. They only have the 500k available to play with.”
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Agreed. But I think the quote was to show the versatility in which the Hives can be created.
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“Cats and ferrets and racoons and all sorts of animals figure out this too. Doesn’t make them smart.”
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Not when they are less than a day old. And if it is so simple to comprehend, why did you even bother saying the Xenos couldn’t comprehend it? Are you now saying that a ferret is smarter than a Xeno? We have already addressed the fucking intelligence issue. They are primate/dolphin level smart. Not human, not genius. Clever and cunning but by no means scholars. Drop it already.
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“You can’t make that assumption. There is nothing stopping the T-850 from taking one undamaged fuel cell and using it as a weapon and function off the spare. It’s either capable of this act, or it is not. And because we have it, in the movie, it’s more than possible for a T-850 to use this manner of attack. It’s capable of making such an attack and it’s capable of using it against targets. It’s done so already in the movie. I’m sorry if this makes it very easy for T-850s to destroy large amounts of xenos, but that’s what it is.”
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And I’m sorry that the canon has repeated several times that they cannot self terminate. The T-850′s sacrifice goes against that. If it was a widely used tactic, then the resistance would have no chance in hell since every unit they came up against had two mini nukes at it’s disposal. But this was not and is not the case.
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“On top of which, this part is sort of derailing, and as it stands, it still doesn’t matter what you think should have happened, all that matters is what did happen in that movie. That’s what you have to use to show for it.”
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I’ve already agreed to drop it. And to be honest, I completely forgot about Lord of the Rings, one of my favorite movies even.
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“So, if the T-850 has an easy escape route out of the hive, then he can use such a device, but if escape is less than easy, suddenly it’s unavailable? That makes sense. Before you said only when it was at the last ditch effort, now it’s only when too easy to not use?”
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How in the hell did you come up with this? I said the only time the Predators used the bomb and lived was when the Predator in the first movies was able to escape the blast via super fast elevator sled thingy. And canon states that it is unavailable. Cannot self terminate.
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“Bugs, last I checked, Xenos still have no flying units, nothing like the Tanker, or units capable of one-shotting spaceships with their plasma farts, kamakazi bugs, scorpion bugs which also shoot plasma, ect, ect. They are more than capable of winning against Xenos.”
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They had the flying Queens fro the toy series. And in a melee battle the Xenos win. But if the anti-air bugs can use their blasts at ground level, then the SST bugs obviously win.
As for the rigid head thing. Warriors have the rigid head and drones have the smooth head. Although I did read something saying that the rigid head comes with age or something. Not that it matters though. Honestly, the one thing that will decide this battle is whether or not the Terminators can use their fuel cells as weapons. Everything else is less influential to the battle.
They had the flying Queens from the toy series.
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Toys are non-canon. And it’s questionable also, as to say Xenos would win in a Melee. I don’t think Xenos would be taking out Bugs except for bleeding on them which won’t always kill a Bug warrior. A warrior bug could kill 2-3 Xenos before being overcome by acid, as it is far larger, faster and it’s attacks much more devestaing compared to the Xenos claws and bites. And even if they could come even with the Warrior bugs, it wouldn’t help as you put it with the bugs that are able to shoot plasma at ground level, like the Scorpions, or the Plasma bugs.
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The T-800 from T2 stated that it was unable to self terminate (although it allowed itself to be killed off for the sake of the future), was in fact the only time this was ever stated. Just once, not several times. However, the T-850 obviously showed that it was perfectly capable of self doing such a thing. Different Terminator, different rules.
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But I think the quote was to show the versatility in which the Hives can be created.
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Agreed, but a lot of why it could do this was because it could take the lessons it learned from encounters with humans and the next generation would adapt strategy in hive making via natural selection. However, there isn’t any way to use natural selection as they are unable to pass such things on here. I’m sure that all 500,000 xenos wont gather into one hive, but I think it’d be the basic 1 Queen=1 hive and all queens getting an equal amount of xeno distribution. It’d be standard tactics and MO for them, so the variety there wouldn’t be present because they won’t have the time to adapt in that manner in this scenario.
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And if it is so simple to comprehend, why did you even bother saying the Xenos couldn’t comprehend it?
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I never said they couldn’t comprehend it, as in would look at it dumbfounded. They’d get the idea, but it had sounded like they got really detailed stuff. What I meant was like, Xenos wouldn’t understand what a robot is, or what a city is, but it ‘knows’ it’s hive, which is kinda like a city. And it’d get that the big guys aren’t humans. I meant like it wouldn’t understand the abstract concepts of such things. IMO, I’d put standard xenos below dolphins and primates, but honestly, close enough for me not to be bothered by it.
Also, cats and ferrets go into ducts and tunnels as soon as they can start moving, I swear (I’ve had both as pets from when they were babies) I mean like a fully developed animal will get this just like a fully developed Xeno would.
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Here’s how I see things right now.
Terminators are much physically stronger than Xenos,(It took multiple Xenos in Aliens to break down a metal door. It took 1 T-800 to punch it and send it about 60 feet away, along with the person on the other side) about equal in speed. Xenos take it in the agility department, but Terminators are, far, far tougher (Xenos have been killed with 9 mm, Velasquez did it in the tunnels in Aliens although she suffered Acid burns. A T-850 spat a 9 mm back out after getting shot in the mouth.) capable of taking way more damage than a Xeno. Terminators are smarter than Xenos, except possibly for the Queens.
Here’s the big reasons why I think Terminators take this, is because Terminators can strike at Xenos at very long distances with there weapons where Xenos need to get into a melee. This gives a huge advantage to Terminators who can kill them from a distance far away from any possible harm. Xenos, even when engaged in Melee with a Terminator, with tail, claws and bites have not shown anything that could harm the hyperalloy chasis of the T-800, let alone the advanced series Terminators. The only real hope warrior Xenos would have is that the Terminators kill it and get the acid blood to work on them. Even in a melee, a terminator would be perfectly capable of throwing a Xeno several meters away to minimize it’s chances of acid damage. And Xenos cannot prevent a T-850 from self destructing if it’s overwhelmed, or using it’s fuel cell as a bomb for the hive, taking hundreds, if not thousands with it.
TL;DR I see lots of ways for Terminators to kill Xenos, but Xenos haven’t shown the ability to harm something like a Terminator with what they have, except for Acid blood, which would mean they need to die to even hurt them. Only other exception would be Queen, but even that’s questionable, as it didn’t do anything to damage the Power Loader except break the light on it’s top in that fight.
And that doesn’t even address Terminators using various tactics to maximize their effectiveness against the Xenos.
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Honestly, the one thing that will decide this battle is whether or not the Terminators can use their fuel cells as weapons.
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Not all Terminators, just the T-850 series. T-800s didn’t even necessarily have the same type of power cells.
I think between this, and whether Xenos can show that their normal means of attack (claws, bites and tail) would be able to harm Terminators are some key issues to address. IMO, I doubt it, as Terminators regularly take on machine gun fire without any harm. It’s one of their defining characteristics. I think the only ways Xenos really can harm Terminators is with Acid blood, or calling in Mama bear. But even the Queen is iffy, as we haven’t seen any feats of it, and it’s best shot was to show it, was to harm the power loader, which it didn’t. Reminder, the power loader isn’t armored, or made for combat at all, but it put Ripley on par with the Queen.
“ All of these traits were programmed in to make the Terms as human like as possible. A machine does not possess common sense. “
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A difference that does not make a difference anymore is not significant. Common sense or logic that takes its place and produces the same results is effectively the same for practical purposes.
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“ Making infiltrator units is hardly working harder if Skynet’s main mission was to infiltrate and eradicate the resistance. What happened to the reason the resistance survived was because Skynet was “destined” to fail? Now they survived because they were better? “
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Skynets mission was to eradicate the humans not to infiltrate them; it had to develop infiltrators because it found that it could not complete its mission with H-Ks alone. Being creative is always harder than using knee-jerk pre-made solutions.
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“ Unless they have a specifically tuned EM vision mode, they are shit outta luck. “
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No, it just means that if they do not have it the Terminators have to keep a sharp eye on the surroundings to pick them out at light wavelengths rather than have a nice convenient way to make the xenos glow in their vision. I know the Terminators can sense electrical fields in walls by sweeping their hands over them, but I am not sure if they can sense the fields at range or even if it would be detailed enough to be better than their regular visual sensors for spotting xenos.
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“ Go read them and notice how I agreed that my opinion is also biased. And what, because I didn’t pointlessly argue with Tech about how many Xenos one Term can kill, that means something? “
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I did read it, and noted in my reply that your bias comment was a non-sequitur that did not address the point it was supposedly rebuffing at all.
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“ “Whatever scanning he was doing that was being interfered with by the hive environment (radar perhaps?) does not factor in here since the terminators do not use active scanning because they are infiltration units and a person emitting RF energy or whatever without something like a tac radio to explain it would be too obviously an imposter. Score one for the ‘older’ less finicky tech.”
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Prove this. With a link and/or quotes. “
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If the wiki is right then they do have radar, though personally I doubt it since nothing in the movies or series indicates that they have active senses, just passive ones (and I remember a bit of dialog somewhere about them not using active pinging because it is too easy to detect which is not a good thing for infiltrators). The wide spectrum vision is confirmed though as well as the airborne chemical analyzers in the following clips:
From T2, various scans. At 00:32 there is an analysis of cigarette smoke blown in the terminators direction:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MeaaCwBW28
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Cameron barcode scanning and calculating a pool shot (she has the most advanced hud yet):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB2yPkesThY
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At 2:24 a T-888 does some kind of subsurface scan of Cameron which shows her skeleton at head and shoulder level. It is barely possible to see but up in the top right corner the spectrum shows 300-10?? (the hud is partially cut off by the edge of the frame) but it is probably 300-1000nm which is slightly better than video camera chips today though today’s cameras are usually filtered to visible light only. 300-nm is ultraviolet and 1000nm is infrared light.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY5WRalarzU&feature=related
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At 02:41 Visual wavelength display shows 300nm-1000nm again, this time clearer (it is only a few frames long so you have to be quick on the pause).
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQU9gl9gyyc&feature=related
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“ Not all Terminators, just the T-850 series. T-800s didn’t even necessarily have the same type of power cells. “
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The T-800 series has an iridium power cell in the chest, about where the heart is in a human, as does the T-888. T-900s have plasma reactors. In one of the TSCC episodes Cameron has John cut into her and put his hand down her reactor access space to see if it was damaged, John said it was cold and Cameron said that was normal so it was not damaged. As far as I know of the T-850 series is unique with the dangerously fragile hydrogen fuel cells.
“Which also means they won’t have any new generations to learn from any mistakes they make from the last generation. If they all gather into a few big hives which are destroyed, like the humans did, they don’t get a second chance to learn and make smaller ones or spread out more, because there are no next generation for them. No system of natural selection for them because they have no means of reproducing.”
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Its too late. All Xenomorphs are connected by a central mother. What 1 knows across the galaxy the rest of them do as well. Hence why even in the future where they were all supposedly wiped out the hive variation on the USS Auriga mimicked exactly what’s in the book.
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“I wanted to address the bullets. Now, not saying they are the same (Because the ammo is 10mm x 24mm), but the 10mm x 25mm round (10mm auto) has a muzzle velocity of ~440m/s and an energy of about 750 ft-lbs. Agreed, it’s caseless, so more to powder and advancements would help, lets just double it. So, say the 10mm x 24mm round has a velocity of 880 m/s and a energy of 1,500 ft-lbs.”
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There is a problem with your math. You also have to factor in the fact that
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1. The things use Pulse Technology with similarities to a railgun. Hence why you use the same round found in the M41 in the M42C and and a blow a hole clean through a tank.
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2. The explosive rounds.
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3. Current events which dictates the latest variant is the M41-E which has the stopping of the M41A/2 which has increased the muzzle velocity of the original model by at least double and the superior rounds.
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There’s a reason why these things can and have cut a grown human in half.
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“Please, just make a claim, and highlight the material to support your claims. I have Earth Hive, I can read it by myself. Just the facts.”
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Read the passages. In them I have proven
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Hive Variation aka they don’t put all thier eggs in 1 basket
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Adaptability
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Survival Instincts
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The Queen being smarter then most humans alive
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The Drones being smarter then dogs
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The Xenos defeating a larger, more advanced force then the Terminators since lets face it the USCMC and Regular Army would spank the Terminators in a war. They have the advantage of better weaponry, better tanks, starships, actual artillery, and the ability to actually attack at range.
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“Toys are non-canon. And it’s questionable also, as to say Xenos would win in a Melee. I don’t think Xenos would be taking out Bugs except for bleeding on them which won’t always kill a Bug warrior. A warrior bug could kill 2-3 Xenos before being overcome by acid, as it is far larger, faster and it’s attacks much more devestaing compared to the Xenos claws and bites. And even if they could come even with the Warrior bugs, it wouldn’t help as you put it with the bugs that are able to shoot plasma at ground level, like the Scorpions, or the Plasma bugs.”
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Going up the hierarchy scale they can take the Arachnids. The Warrior Bugs are physically inferior to the Warrior Xenos until proven other wise. Their carapace would not stop Warrior claws and the Xenos have the benefit of being more agile and the ability to jump into battle. The Plasma would not be as effective as you think because heat is not that effective of a weapon against the Xenos. They fear fire as a self-preservation method but actual heat is dissipated by the carapace. This further scene in Earth Hive
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“-Smith was close to the Alien. As it twisted back to find him, Smith fired. He was too close. The focuser on the end of the plasma rifle nearly touched the thing. The beam pierced the alien’s armor, but it also splashed. The plasma sprayed and hit Smith in the face. It cooked the flesh, boiled his eyes into steam. He fell back as the alien collapsed on him.”-Aliens: Earth Hive pg214
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Thus you would need a concentrated plasma weapon on the magnitude of the P.I.G. to burn through the carapace. Take not the P.I.G. is an anti-tank weapon that burns through tank armor at 2000 meters like a hot knife through warm butter. The SST bug plasma is not concentrated into a beam but works more like a flamethrower. I have no doubts that the one it fires from its ass would work. However it has never been shown to use that against ground based targets. Likely cause it would probably kill itself as well.
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“Terminators are much physically stronger than Xenos,(It took multiple Xenos in Aliens to break down a metal door. It took 1 T-800 to punch it and send it about 60 feet away, along with the person on the other side) about equal in speed.”
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1. Do you have a quote for the thickness of that door and the materials its made out of? And Aliens have torn titanium blast doors apart and ripped through 3inches a solid steel as well as smash from 3inches of Kleersteel as seen in Aliens when the thing smashed through the windshield of the APC. Those are bulletproof obviously.
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2.”Mitch!” Billie screamed from her com. The alien flexed muscles hidden under its exoskeleton, cords filled with power a score of time stronger then any man could manage. Bueller felt the pain burn through his waste, a shattering bolt that short-circuited all his systems, filling him, like a sudden plunge into molten aluminum. He managed a scream, then felt the unendurable shock as–As the thing tore him in half at the waist.”-Aliens: Earth Hive pg 223
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The xenos are described as 20 times stronger then any man thus on the low end 3600lbs lifting strength so round that up to 2 tons, on the mid end 8000lbs or 3 tons, on the high end 16000 or 8 tons and on the highest end 24000lbs 12 tons. Now how strong are the Terminators because the biggest strength feat I can recall is smashing an engine block through the bottom of a car. But he does not have the strength to lift said car. Xenos do.
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“(Xenos have been killed with 9 mm, Velasquez did it in the tunnels in Aliens although she suffered Acid burns. A T-850 spat a 9 mm back out after getting shot in the mouth.)”
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Those weren’t 9mm those were M4A4s which fired 10mm caseless armor piercing rounds with explosive tips and would crack a Terminator’s armor wide open.
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All in all I see the Xeno’s taking this. The Terminators have the advantage of range but that advantage is mitigated by NY which has subway tunnels and sewer systems that go into pretty much every building. Not to mention the can run at between 45-55mph and leap 20-30ft in single bounds. Once the Xenos get in close its all she wrote since in close range combat they will dominate and no one has proven me wrong about that. I gave a quote where they ripped a combat android in half.
Zombies would go down first and then the fight would be left between the Xenomorphs and terminators. Why did you make up such ridiculous uneven numbers btw?
and no it does not depend what zombies. The zombies are brainless flesh eating beings with no way to fight against metallic intelligence.
All Xenomorphs are connected by a central mother. What 1 knows across the galaxy the rest of them do as well.
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There isn’t one in this scenario. Just the 500k in whatever caste distribution given by the matchmaker. It’d be considered ‘outside help’ and banned via FP rules #3
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Adaptability
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Only have the 500k, and are only adaptable as that generation could be, which really limits it as a lot of the Xeno adaptability is tied to passing on lessons to the next generation and via natural selection.
As for intellect, we agreed on drones/warriors being around primates in smarts, and Queens (although they don’t seem to use it IMO) being extremely intellegent (175 IQ)
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Those weren’t 9mm those were M4A4s which fired 10mm caseless armor piercing rounds with explosive tips and would crack a Terminator’s armor wide open.
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She used a handgun. Not the pulse rifle. She pinned it to a wall with her foot and shot it in the head, which popped it open very easy.
Here’s a screen shot in case you forgot that scene:
img53.imageshack.us/img53/9071/aliens1.png
The gun is a S&W 39 9mm. Xenos can be taken out by 9mm handguns. Terminators cannot.
www.imfdb.org/w/Aliens
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Hence why you use the same round found in the M41 in the M42C and and a blow a hole clean through a tank.
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I did compensate for things like that, which is why I doubled the power of the round, which still fell below both 7.62 rounds. This could help if you provided quotes from the Tech manual or something so I don’t have to calculate based off the info you do give me about it (like size of the bullet) . Also, it’s something to bring up for the eventual Mobile Infantry vs Xenos thread that I suggested.
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Quote for it going thru a tank, from what I can tell, the M42C was a sniper rifle and even anti-vehicle (hurts the APC) but that doesn’t make it Anti-tank. Tanks have far more armor and much harder to kill than APCs and vehicles of that type.
Plus, applies for the M42c and not the M41A.
Also, in Aliens, when Hudson shot the shit out of the Facehugger, it didn’t even go through the desk he was using to pin it’s tail down to shoot at it or leave any sort of hole or dent in the floor either. Just lots of sparks.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fcb3rgckF8&feature=player_detailpage#t=53s
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The explosive rounds.
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Explosive rounds are useful once you’ve penetrated into your target. And they don’t add any power to the muzzle velocity or energy from the round or the penetration power. But, I think this is where they cut people in half. Even a regular bullet with a bomb in it could do it. I think the explosive rounds are what’s actually cutting people in half, not the actual power of the ammo itself in flight.
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Hive Variation aka they don’t put all thier eggs in 1 basket
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Hive variation only occurred after the regular hives were destroyed by the humans according to that quote,
:
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Or maybe it was some kind of forced natural selection. Like rats or roaches who have been hunted and poisoned or smashed flat, the aliens began varying their nest making
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and later generations learned from the mistakes via natural selection, after the first few generations of hives were destroyed. They have no means to accomplish this in the given scenario.
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Now how strong are the Terminators because the biggest strength feat I can recall is smashing an engine block through the bottom of a car. But he does not have the strength to lift said car. Xenos do.
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I haven’t seen a drone/warrior Xeno come close to lifting a car. Even the Queen didn’t just lift the Power Loader over her head in Aliens, and she was 4-5 times bigger than any Xeno. (And if you say “No leverage, lifted up” you’re wrong, she’s on her feet almost the entire fight. It’s only right before she drops her into the airlock that she’s off the ground. And she has plenty of opportunity to attack the slow, lumbering Power loader, after she dodges two of Ripleys swings for instance, but she does nothing. Doesn’t say a lot for her intellegence either.) Hell, even with her head in the arm, she should have been able to lift it clean off the floor if that was true. She wasn’t off her feet, just being kept back.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYzWUjxnESg
Ripley vs Queen fight
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And Aliens have torn titanium blast doors apart and ripped through 3inches a solid steel as well as smash from 3inches of Kleersteel as seen in Aliens when the thing smashed through the windshield of the APC. Those are bulletproof obviously.
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Quote and citation needed for the titanium blast door still. I don’t remember where in Aliens they talked about the APC, or what anything was made of. It’d be reasonable that it’d be made out of things like steel and bullet proof glass, but nothing evidence they are made of any exotic materials. A T-800 ripped a T-600 clean in half with one arm, which is what, 15-20 inches of metal (titanium alloy if I recall, which is stronger than steel) Also shows Terminators can rip a robot right in two (with a single arm), so Xenos aren’t alone on that feat.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbtrnvagPqk&feature=player_detailpage#t=132s
Barely breaks his stride in doing so I might add. With one arm.
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Also, just because it’s bullet proof, doesn’t mean it is stabbing proof. Kevlar body armor only provides very limited protection against stabbing attacks, and people wearing vests have been stabbed. It’s only rated to be bullet proof, and doesn’t necessarily other types of attacks, because of it’s mechanism for preventing penetration. I believe a similar theory was present in the Xeno vs Pandora thread for why arrows went through the bullet proof glass of the helicopters and such. Bulletproof applies to bullets.
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The Terminator held a blast door open (Which is mechanically pushing down on top of the weight) Which you can see as part of this video.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vCLeV7PfJs&feature=player_detailpage#t=82s
Now, it’s about as thick as the entire head and torso of the T-850, which puts it around 35-40 inches thick, and
about, 13-15 ft high (it’s over twice as tall as John conner and the Terminator (pause at :34 or :38 to see John Connor in front of the Blast Door) and about 2.5-3 times johns height wide? And completely solid metal? It’s not hollow like a car would be. It even does it with just one arm so it can hold the T-X up and access it’s hydrogen fuel cell.
www.chapelsteel.com/weight-steel-plate.html
Putting calculations in for (13 ft) 156 in x (15 ft) 180 in in x 35 in for steel, and I get 27,8722 lbs, which makes the Terminator stronger than the absolute strongest Xeno using the low end calculation. High end at 15 ft by 18 ft and 40 inch (180 in x 216 in x 40 in) I get 44,1054 lbs. And that’s not even adding for the door mechanism pushing down on top of it, which would probably push it well past 45,000 lbs, and we’re talking about Terminators being twice as strong as the strongest Xeno.
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I gave a quote where they ripped a combat android in half.
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And I also pointed out how androids in Aliens are much more delicate than their counter parts. Even in video games they are taken down with a few blasts from various firearms, unlike terminators. Also, a T-800 ripped a T-600 in half with one arm effortlessly as posted above.
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The Xenos defeating a larger, more advanced force then the Terminators since lets face it the USCMC and Regular Army would spank the Terminators in a war
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USCMC vs Terminators is a different fight in it’s self. Just because A beat B and A beats C doesn’t mean B beats C. You could have a rock paper scissors thing going on. Each must be addressed via their own merit.
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I have no doubts that the one it fires from its ass would work. However it has never been shown to use that against ground based targets. Likely cause it would probably kill itself as well.
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They had a class of bugs called “Scorpions” in the 2nd movies which could fire plasma directily in front of them from the scorpion like ‘tail’ Not as big, but still killed people in armor easy enough. And fun, but different argument for a different day. Hopefully someone will make that fight. I put in a request for Mobile Infantry vs Xenos, and I don’t want to flood with requests.
But, this bug vs xeno thing needs to wait until that scenario is brought up. We already have our hands full with Terminators vs Xenos, and we’re also arguing out this one. Fun stuff, but save it for that inevitable thread.
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Also, as the admin, or anyone appointed by admin, or the matchmaker, has not given us official word to change the scenario, X’s standard, that movie versions only are to be in, then feats in the books should not be considered, as per the FP rules, namely, rule 1 regarding battle scenarios. I know it sucks, but those are the rules here.
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So, in short with the evidence above Terminators are superior in strength, durability, intellegence on average, along with the benefit of long range weapons with motion detection, analysis and snap magnification and a detailed sensor array, sensory abilities to identify them with, acting like the sentries did in Aliens and killing dozens if not hundreds before they’d get close. And even then, a swarmmed T-850 could use it’s fuel cell to destroy the hive it happened to be in entirely and take possibly thousands with it, or if ruptured via acid blood, cause it to go off and kill all the xenos in the surrounding area, hive and all.
Why did you make up such ridiculous uneven numbers btw?
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The numbers were made to make things more even. If all sides were set at 5 million, it’d be a landslide victory for Terminators. At a 10:1 disadvantage against Xenos, there is room for discussion now. (But even at 1000:1 zombies to xenos or terminators, xenos or terminators would still come out on top. That’s why we are really only discussing Terminators vs Xenos.)
or leave any sort of hole or dent in the floor either.
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Correction, the video shows some divots in the floor, but not full penetration, same with the desk.
FYI: Using those calculations, the blast door would weigh around between 18-22 tons, which isn’t that far off, as the blast doors for the cheyenne mountain complex weigh 25 tons which is an appropriate parallel as both were military installations designed to be protected in case of nuclear attack. A lot also use lead for sheilding, which would also add significant weight, but I won’t try to calculate for it. I think the solid steel measurement will serve.
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www.howstuffworks.com/norad2.htm
And I know this is like the 5th post now in rapid fire sequence, but I ran an appoximation of the door the T-800 hit off. If it was a steel door, based off of being about 1/2 foot taller than Connor or the Terminator, about 4 feet wide, and 6 inches thick, it’d weigh about. (78 in x 48 in x 6 in) it’d weigh 6370 lbs. Even cutting that below half, to 3000 lbs, that’s 3000 lbs punched about 40 ft away after being sheered off the hinges of the wall with a person taking some of the blow and being tossed about 10-15 ft himself. I doubt a Xeno comes close to 3000 lbs. I’d be surprised if they go over even come close to 1000 lbs.
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So screw me, 6th post, but also the Pizza kid at the end of AVP2 killed a Xeno with a Glock from about 10-15 feet away to protect his brother and the helicopter before they took off.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=E5OR2WcaH5g
~6:00 in shows the scene.
@Tech/Mana: you’re wrong about the zombies. 100 tanks/ 1 xeno would be a stomp for team undead.
@Khazit: I have to agree. That would be rather stompy. And fun to watch.
But the zombies specified here are of the Walking Dead variety.
“ @Tech/Mana: you’re wrong about the zombies. 100 tanks/ 1 xeno would be a stomp for team undead. “
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It would definitely change the dynamics of the scenario and make the zombies a real contender in the match (at least form a purely combat point of view), and of the 100 tanks probably only the first dozen or less would have even gotten a good look at the xeno much less gotten a hit in before it got squashed. The down side is that any living mutant type zombies would give the xenos a tremendous advantage unless the Green Virus or the T-cell or whatever somehow interfere with the xeno lifecycle and prevent them from using them as hosts (or turn them into zombies themselves somehow). Furthermore, from the Xenomorphs vs Pandora thread it is obvious that there are too many hardcore xeno fans on this board who would stonewall any speculation along those lines so anything but true undead zombies would probably result in a xeno victory no matter how hard they got hit in the beginning since it would enable them to use their signature MO and turn the million zombie mutants into a few hundred thousand extra xenos.
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The xenos only have one strategy but against living corruptible opponents it gives them all the advantages since it uses their opponents natural abilities or biotech against them and rapidly swells their ranks while depleting their opponents; this match does not let them employ that strategy since there are no living opponents to use as hosts and the only biotech is the useless to xenos skin sheath used by the terminators to pass for human. That forces the xenos to use their natural baseline combat abilities rather than simply out populate everyone else so their real fighting ability can finally be examined.
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The xeno main defense is actually a kind of vengeance system (the acid blood) that depends on the opponents self preservation instinct to keep attacks on them to the minimum while going about their real offensive strategy of converting the opponents population. Against something that is too stupid to have a sense of self preservation it would be far less effective as a defense though it would cause massive damage to the attackers. The xenos passive defenses are good for a giant insect but nothing especially tough from an armor point of view (probably because that would lessen the effect of the acid blood since less would be spilled), and can be breached by 10mm assault rifles and ordinary shotguns in the movies. This makes sense if their carapaces are really made of some kind of hardened fluoropolymer material like the ecology of the xeno article someone linked to a few pages ago suggests. It should also make them slipperier than a greased pig though oddly the power loader did not have much trouble keeping a grip on that queen (of course the loader could have some kind of gecko grip material on its manipulators that would compensate for this to an extent).
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Offensively the xenos are limited to their claws (which would probably be something other than Teflon which begs the question of why they are not dissolved by the acid, though the AvP movies give a somewhat plausible possibility in the form of the coating the predators apply to their blades, which they could have gotten from study of a similar substance infused into the xenos claws or whatever, their strength (surprisingly strong for its size but not impossibly so for a biological construct unless the non-movie materials exaggerate it well beyond movie levels), and their acid blood if injured. This puts them at a severe disadvantage to ranged weapons since they have to close to retaliate.
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” “-Smith was close to the Alien. As it twisted back to find him, Smith fired. He was too close. The focuser on the end of the plasma rifle nearly touched the thing. The beam pierced the alien’s armor, but it also splashed. The plasma sprayed and hit Smith in the face. It cooked the flesh, boiled his eyes into steam. He fell back as the alien collapsed on him.”-Aliens: Earth Hive pg214
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Thus you would need a concentrated plasma weapon on the magnitude of the P.I.G. to burn through the carapace. Take not the P.I.G. is an anti-tank weapon that burns through tank armor at 2000 meters like a hot knife through warm butter. “
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That quote actually does not show that it takes a plasma weapon to penetrate the xeno carapace since it penetrates just like the 9mm pistol slugs and 10mm rifle slugs did in the movies; it just shows the dangers of using a plasma weapon at less than its minimum recommended range.
Quick note… Our website title has changed, isn’t it? Glorious debate about guys that don’t exist ? Really????
Even if we used L4D zombies like Tanks, who are not technically ‘dead’ zombies, I don’t think the Xenos would have a lot of success using them as hosts. The zombies would probably be so bloodlusted, and dumb enough, where they’d bite anything put into their mouths, even facehuggers, killing the facehugger (or effectively castrating it) and kill the zombie, or leave it without mouth, but the Xenos not getting any thing out of it though.
” Even if we used L4D zombies like Tanks, who are not technically ‘dead’ zombies, I don’t think the Xenos would have a lot of success using them as hosts. The zombies would probably be so bloodlusted, and dumb enough, where they’d bite anything put into their mouths, even facehuggers, killing the facehugger (or effectively castrating it) and kill the zombie, or leave it without mouth, but the Xenos not getting any thing out of it though. ”
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True, they probably would not act anything like a normal species. The danger would be if the xenos figured out some way to knock them out, though I don’t know how they would manage it on something like a zombie.
I’ve never really seen a zombie that’s unconscious. It’s really either brain online and actively trying to eat things, or brain offline and dead.
It would depend on the kind of zombie, I believe.
A biological, living zombie could suffer trauma adequate to disable but not kill it.
A biological dead zombie, I doubt it, though it may be possible to disable but not kill.
A magic zombie, living or dead, probably not.
I guess it could be possible with like 28 days later variety zombies, which technically were living people under the affects of a disease. So, their bodies shouldn’t be too different I guess.
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L4D zombies are sort of a unknown, especially for the special infected, because the bodies are so mutated, it’s really hard to say anything. I’d lean towards no, as I don’t think I’ve ever seen one unconscious. Just dead or alive. I mean, the tank will live for like….2, 3 minutes of straight being on fire, head and everything, before it’ll even stop? That technically should cook the brain inside it’s head. I’d say L4D zombies lean more towards the classical zombies (although they obviously have a twist) in this aspect.
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And Walking dead/traditional Romero zombies, I’d say they work and attempt to eat until they destroy you destroy the brain.
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But X stated that they were to be of the Walking dead variety, just 5 million regular zombies walking around, which is why we really haven’t talked about them, and have brought the focus of it to Xenos vs Terminators.
“The bugs require concentrated fire to kill because the Morita Assault Rifle uses 7.62 rounds thus are insufficient for dealing with large targets such as the SST Bugs. Put the M41 in their hand however it would be a completely different story since entire parts would come off and you can actually hit something with it instead of those piece of shit rifles.”
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So this rail gun is a piece of shit?
starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Morita_Railgun
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Or their standard assault rifle?
starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Morita_III_Assault_Rifle
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Holy shit, let’s not forget about what are essentially pocket-nukes
starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Tactical_Oxygen_Nuke
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Holy mother of god their STANDARD ammunition for their shoulder mounted rocket launchers are mini-nukes.
starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Rocket_Launcher
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The funny thing is that I’m only using the movie, which is their weakest incarnation . Shall I get into the novel stuff?
starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Armor
starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Warrior_%28novel%29
starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Arachnid_Starship_%28Novel%29
starshiptroopers.wikia.com/wiki/Mobile_Infantry_%28Novel%29
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However, non of this is relevant because its not the debate, it just gets a little irksome when people claim that the Xenomorphs are the best bio-weapon/terror/hive-minded creatures this side of the Zerg and ‘Nids.
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“There won’t be just 1 ‘base”
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Still in a barren wasteland that used to be New York. The Terminators had to search just about everywhere on the planet. Finding a few thousand, hundred thousand, or even a few million people that are intentionally hiding all over the world is very different from finding 250,000 lifeforms in an area less than 1% of even the U.S., let alone the world.
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“I’m so happy for you. Now, anything useful to say?”
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Stuff more useful than claiming that Xenomorphs are the ultimate bioweapon?
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“Put a million of each in the battle and see who would win.”
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Probably the side with DEWs, Anti-Gravity technology, and spaceships
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“And you do?”
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In terms of how massively easier it would be to find 500,000 xenomorphs in New York than it would be to find Humans on the rest of the planet, then yes.
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“Here’s some more info”
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It’s cool and everything, but that is only when the Xenomoprhs have like, billions of hosts, and not just from Humans. Here, not so much.
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“We have already addressed the fucking intelligence issue. They are primate/dolphin level smart.”
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I believe the quote said they were just above dogs in intelligence.
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“but actual heat is dissipated by the carapace.”
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So when Xenomorphs get blown to bits from the plasma weapons from Predators, that is simply their carapace dissipating the heat? Fire is like hot, plasma is like “holy shit my face is melting and the plasma didn’t even touch me.”
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Has anyone read “Aliens: Stalker”?
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Yes? No?
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Question. Would you say that terminators are superior to Vikings?
Like, Norse Vikings? What sort of vikings are you talking about?
“Like, Norse Vikings? What sort of vikings are you talking about?”
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Like yeah. “Normal” Vikings (Are Vikings ever normal?). Like the ones that pillage shit and what not from the textbooks.
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I highly suggest looking into Aliens: Stalker.
” Question. Would you say that terminators are superior to Vikings? ”
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That is a joke, right? Vikings would have about as much luck against terminators as armored knights would have against M1 tanks.
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The only weapon vikings have that would have any effect at all on the combat chassis would be the hammer and that would just knock the terminator around a bit without damaging it (except bruising the sheath). There are plenty of scenes where terminators hit each other with heavy objects, and even with car-lifting strength it takes quite a few blows to do much of anything.
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Cameron, who is designed to blend in with teenage girls and therefore tiny compared to most other terminators and so is the weakest model physically is capable of pulling out a four inch diameter fence post and hitting another terminator with it hard enough to bend it around into a tight U shape and the only thing that did was knock it down. She used the leverage of the pipe (by bending it into a X to pin its arms while she kicked it) and it still took a while to wear it down.
The terminators in the SCC were almost all never before heard of models that only appeared in the series, with a huge variation of the capabilities of each.
“That is a joke, right? Vikings would have about as much luck against terminators as armored knights would have against M1 tanks”
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That’s kinda the point of the question.
Look into “Aliens: Stalker”. I guess that would be the punchline. If I didn’t think Xenomorphs were so cool already, that comic would probably forever tarnish my opinion of them, especially as the “ultimate bioweapon.”
Yeah, if Vikings were able to handle Xenomorphs, then that’s a serious peg down for them. If Vikings could handle them with Axes and little else, then Terminators would have this wrapped up. Any scans, or anything from that series?
@tmwta
I saw some scans of it but none of it was in english and wasn’t enough to get a good idea of what was going on. Did they pierce the shell of it or something?
I have no idea. I never heard of this comic before.
“I saw some scans of it but none of it was in english and wasn’t enough to get a good idea of what was going on. Did they pierce the shell of it or something?”
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It was quite some time ago when I read it, and I basically forgot about it, until I stumbled across a picture of the title. Problem is, it’s pretty hard to get scans of because it didn’t really become popular. A single issue comic that had zero-follow-up or anything.
” I have no idea. I never heard of this comic before. ”
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I never knew it was a comic, though I did hear (and forgot) something about Aliens and Vikings a long time ago from someone from my old gaming group.
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” The terminators in the SCC were almost all never before heard of models that only appeared in the series, with a huge variation of the capabilities of each. ”
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Most of them were from the old collectible card game actually. They had a lot of variants in that one. I heard something about the series not using the already established T-800 and T-850 so as to not make continuity problems by giving them new abilities or whatever. Of course it makes sense to have a more advanced model than a T-850 anyway since they are obsolete by the time Cameron was supposed to go back in time for her mission.
My understanding is TSCC takes place in like an alternate timeline/alternate reality where T3 and T4 didn’t happen. So, it’s got this weird disconnect with a lot of the Terminator Franchise, only having the basic key concepts from the franchise.
“ My understanding is TSCC takes place in like an alternate timeline/alternate reality where T3 and T4 didn’t happen. So, it’s got this weird disconnect with a lot of the Terminator Franchise, only having the basic key concepts from the franchise. “
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It is a branch starting sometime after T2 but before Sarah Connor got cancer on the past end and a fairly short time (a few years more or less) after T3 on the future end (Cameron knows about Sarahs cancer in the other branch, and I think she is also aware that the T-850 and T-X were dispatched though I am not sure about the second part, it has been a while since the series was on). It is not so much disconnected as it was a deeper exploration of issues like the time loops and a wider picture of the intertime struggle (and of course issues about artificial intelligence vs natural intelligence and what that could mean about the two and other things) than is possible in an action movie. The paradox caused time split was part of that exploration both in a general plot sense and also in a practical real world sense of not having to worry about precedent being set that would interfere with the writing of any following movies. In fact the pilot is itself an exercise in paradox since the event that causes the split happens at the end of it, but the ramifications of the split are already in play at the start of it. It fits in with the rest of the Terminator continuity; it just happens to the side of the timeline of the movies after T2 follow and shows the technology one loop advanced from T3.
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On one side of the fork T3 and T4 happened, on the other TSCC happened instead. TSCC has the later 800 series terminators because it happens after T3 in the timeline (the same way the movies delay the start of the holocaust each time but increase the technology level slightly). The events are different, but the technology is the basically same, like it is in all of the movies despite the fact that the inventers of the machines have been killed or neutralized several times and all future tech has been cleaned up and disposed of repeatedly. Always others have taken their places in the general framework of events in the time loops and kept the cycle going. It continues the trend of refining the tech with each loop despite the best efforts of the heroes to eliminate it (and in the last filmed season hints are turned up as to way that is happening). It also shows hints that the repeated attempts to fix things is just making a bigger and bigger mess with each loop, kind of like in the book “Dinosaur Beach” instead of a simple linear thing like “Back to the Future”.
Zombies can’t infect anyone here, neither can Aliens, as it stands Zombies just stand around, with Aliens and Skynet duking it out with Aliens eventual defeat.
Well, this is rather interesting… I’m sorry I couldn’t go through all the previous comments but I did get far enough to get the gist of the argument. From the bits of knowledge I have on the Xenos, my admiration for Zombie tenacity and respect for terms, I’d say terms win. Xenos need hosts (correct me if I’m wrong) to incubate their offspring. Assuming the host’s role is to provide nutrition, warmth and protection (incubation 101) to the Xeno embryo, Zombies are unsuitable. Being undead, their body temps (we are treading the murky waters of speculation here) would probably be low, entirely dependent on external conditions. So the Xenos might have trouble breeding. But seeing as they don’t need to eat and are quite hardy, that is a minor detail. If we use L4D’s most powerful zeds, hunters and tanks, they could keep the Xenos on their toes, but not actually defeat them. Zombies would be the first to get wiped out by terms. And we must acknowledge that Terms might have trouble with the Xenos initially, but Skynet is smart. Really smart. And so are the Terms. So after the ultimate stompage of the Zeds, we might have the following battle scenario:
1. The Terms are sent on “seek and destroy”. I will assume they know they’re looking for Xenos.
2. The initial scout teams probably stumble into nests and have their collective asses handed to them because of poor intel. But note, though they are losing, they are sending data to SN which will be used to strategise.
3. Terms set up stations where more bots can be made. Skynet designs bots to combat Xenos given the data it has collected. At this stage data profile is incomplete and bots still get their asses kicked 9 ways to December but they are a bit more prepared. This particular mission is part recon, and the main objective is to obtain a xeno body either dead or alive for analysis.
4. With a sample of an actual Xeno, SN can now make a full analysis and determine what makes Xenos undetectable.
5. Armed with this info, new Terms are made with the ability to detect said Xenos. Since the Xenos have lost the silent-assassin edge, the fight is now between constantly evolving tech and massive numbers of hive-minded, super-strong aliens. I say the tech wins eventually but only after an epic battle.
Terminators FTW!
this is the dumbest fight ever. terminators would win. there should be no compotition or questions asked
Depending on the zombie … i skipped allot of things but um … has the idea of Resident Evil Zombies been brought up? Because the T-Virus like rapidly evolves i thought … making some crazy mutations over time … theres some big holes here in this debate methinks … the fact would be the terms and the zombies might not even fight each other … terms are robots … not infectable. Xenomorphs would be prime target of the zombies because they are all thermal i thought … creating noise and such for zombies to stagger towards, i think any xenomorph hives would have a literal million tons of zombie meat to get through if the zombies tried to get in and infect em. Assuming they couldn’t incubate the embryos face huggers implant and junk or if they could however the xenomorph might somehow be infected (Only with something like the T-Virus which is a really advanced infectant … ) i think the zombies would win through survival, they in the end would probably eventually just decompose over the course of years after the main battle but then again whoever survives wins .. right? I think that the xenomorphs would loose but the terms and zombies could coexist … unless the terms would be sent to kill the zombies or infected … for whatever reason skynet has for killing or obtaining just a bunch of walking harmless mindless biomass it’d be like a bunch of animals just attacking background plants and junk. Even if the zombies are just Walking dead zombies then y’know they are virus based i dunno how strong of a virus it’d be or how aggressive it would be … i go for team zombie. Becuase i think stragglers would get away from the main force of zombies these stragglers would probably be 10,000 strong non objective however slowly decomposing while xenomorphs get starved or just plain terminated … and while skynet probably goes through some cycle with the rogue T-1000s eventually causing some kind of downfall or the xenomorphs MAYBE winning if they somehow figured out how to get skynet. Even then they would still starve (Assuming no more humans are on the planet nor animals) Someway
just the zombies are practically waiting everyone out. Surviving the main fight. But otherwise if the zombies would be the targets of skynet then i think they would end up dieing and being snuffed out to the point only tiny tiny amounts of zombies were left to just stagger until they fall down and decompose (Sorry for unorganized post, i’m new. Also sorry for talkin about a somewhat dead topic)
is alex mercer a zombie?or wesker?
Whoa, the amount of fanboyism here is huge. A lot of the people here have no idea what they are talking about. How much do you want to bet they have not even done research on both sides of the argument? None the less I know for a fact that the Terminators do have this. The Terminators were powerful enough to endanger the entire human race. While the Aliens were not even able to handle a small group of skilled mercenaries. The Predators were more of a threat to the humans than the Aliens were. In fact, even the Zombies have accomplished a much greater feat than the aliens by endangering the human race as well. But the Zombies would only be effective if they GREATLY outnumbered both the Aliens and the Terminators. Of course they would be more of a threat to the Aliens. I mean the Terminators can not really be harmed by the Zombies while the Aliens can. It is possible that the Zombies COULD infect the Aliens as well. That is another thing that Alien fanboys (Reaper) seem to overlook. You not only underestimate the strength of something that has no more restraints. (Which means it will break its own arms, legs, or even jaw in order to kill) But you also overlook the Zombie virus itself. And as far as I am concerned. The Aliens would NOT be immune to it. Aliens are immune to toxins. Not illnesses. The Terminators on the other hand. Will have virtually no problem against the Aliens or Zombies. Their weaponry is top notch. And as I said before, the Terminators endangered the human race. Aliens could not even accomplish a fraction of this. Reaper I really hope you are getting this. Because you seem to be the only one that just does not understand how powerful the Zombies and Terminators really are. Honestly, do you realize how strong 300 humans are with no restraints? 300 people is enough to stop a speeding bus at 90 mph! You have to put realism into effect man! One T-800 could stop a bus at that speed easily! While most of the Aliens could not! (Alone of course, I am pretty sure that 30 basic Aliens could stop it. But you have to compare that to the strength of an “obsolete” Terminator.) And the reason that I threw more Zombies in there is because. Well realistically, there are going to be more Zombies than everyone else. Because of the fact he said there was no life left. And well I am having a hard time believing that those Aliens are going to out swarm those Zombies. I really do have a feeling that the Zombie virus would spread throughout the Alien population. And turn them against each other. The Terminators do not have to worry about the Zombies because they are freaking machines! And yes I did read the posts about: “The Xenomorphs will use them as hosts.” Do you really believe that the chestbursters would not become infected by the Zombie virus in the process of doing this? Seriously, everyone looks over the Zombies like they are not threat at all but they have THE VIRUS as their weapon! And the only people that are going to be affected by it are the Aliens!
”How much do you want to bet they have not even done research on both sides of the argument?”
I have knowledge on both sides of the argument, and I can tell that buddy… you seem to be an example of this.
”is alex mercer a zombie?or wesker?”
Is Alex Mercer in this.
OMEGAMI I am going to start of by saying. Instant respect for being a fellow fan of Madness Combat. And second, you being a fan of it as I am should know not to underestimate Zombies XD
And Kokris, Zombies are not smart enough to wait it out.
Either way, Terms butt fuck rape the planet and win. Zombies will be the first to die, and Aliens could put up a fight, but don’t mess with Skynet.
”OMEGAMI I am going to start of by saying. Instant respect for being a fellow fan of Madness Combat. And second, you being a fan of it as I am should know not to underestimate Zombies XD”
If it was the madness combat zombies that Christoff can create, then yes.
But this are generic zombies, and by applying logic, real life zombies are not so dangerous, only movie makes them look dangerous.
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1.First of all, Zombies are stupid and slow (like the Dead Rising guy said before getting eaten by them).
2. Zombies are decomposing, they are rotten and I believe that most zombies don’t even have enough muscle fivers to hold down a kid.
3, Worms, rodents and weather conditions such as rain or sunlight will appear to be the Zombies worst enemy, because it helps eradicate their bodies even more.
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So real life zombies won’t last a week depending on their conditions.
Madness Combat zombies are powered by the ”Nexus”, so they don’t work like normal zombies.
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The Xenomorphs are silicon based life forms, no decease or virus that the zombies carry will affect them, because the virus is only affecting organic life forms from this planet, meaning they only seem to be compatible against organic life forms and not silicon, so the Xenos are immune to the zombies here.
With that said, the Zombies are a non factor and they will just die by getting rammed in the middle of the fight, both the Xenos and Skynet don’t even need to fight them, their flesh will start to fall off their bones in a few days and render them harmless (that they are a threat to them anyways).
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That is all I have to say about post #655
All that you said about Skynet is ok, I know Skynet wins this fight.
Well OMEGAMI you have to understand that the original poster said something about Resident Evil Zombies so basically everything you said about Generic Zombies is untrue because they are not in this fight. Resident Evil Zombies are. And the Aliens MUST be Organic because it is living. And the T-virus works differently than the regular one.
alien blood being acid as it is; no form of biological infection or virus would affect them. It would be instantly disintegrated on contact.
“alien blood being acid as it is; no form of biological infection or virus would affect them. It would be instantly disintegrated on contact.”
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Not strictly true. Alien blood only become corrosive when it begins to react with air first off. Secondly as it is still a biological acid there are biological defenses, such as those utilised by the aliens own cells, which would allow a virus to survive. There are some stupidly resistant viruses out there.
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Aside from that, the Terminators will win this fight. The alien camp seems to be mostly composed of fanboys.
“Not strictly true. Alien blood only become corrosive when it begins to react with air first off. Secondly as it is still a biological acid there are biological defenses, such as those utilised by the aliens own cells, which would allow a virus to survive. There are some stupidly resistant viruses out there.” You have a good point, but upon being bitten the blood would be exposed to the air. Now for your second argument that is true, there is the possibility of the virus still being effective, but since we’re dealing with plain ol zombies it would only result in dumbed down and slow undead xenomorphs, giving them even less of a chance against the terms than they had when they were alive. So logically the Terms still win this scenario.