Suggested by X
Perhaps three of the most well known antagonists today, the Terminators, Xenomorphs and Zombies will face off against each other.
The fight happens in New York during the time of Skynet and an army of xenomorphs also moved in.
NOTE: Terminators have 50,000 units. Xenomorphs arrive as an army of 500,000 and there are 5 million zombies.
Which group would win?
“Well, since the Xenos are immune to any kind of poison or toxin, it’s safe to say that the Zombie flesh will do just fine as a food source.”
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I’d like to know where this comes from. It’s hard for me to imagine a creature that no matter what chemicals it’s made of, is inert to any other combination of molecules or chemicals that could cause it harm. No way to manipulate it’s biology into harm via a virus or a bacteria. I’m not saying the zombie virus would necessarily work, but I’d like something that says that Xenos are 100% immune to being poisoned or harmed chemically. You’d think being able to give them a large dose of a base chemical would kill them by altering body chemistry, reacting with the acid in their blood or whatever.
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I used the Velociraptor as an idea, but not to be an actual indicator if where I feel either of them lie. I’d used it as another alternative to animal intellegence besides just the Graboid example I used since the first Jurassic Park is very familiar to people, but IMO, see as being closer to how the Graboid example was in comparison to Velociraptors. I just love that whole ‘clever girl’ thing in the movie.
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In the movies, they are repeatedly destroyed by the advanced lifeforms (Human and Predator) and exterminated, outwitted and left very dead by various means, so I’m not sure how they have overcome, as in their key series, they are always destroyed by a female space trucker. I’m sure they give people quite a shock, but nothing I’ve seen says ‘Huge threat to all life in the universe.’ Like the way something like The Thing did.
As far as threats go, I put them like, a few steps below the Bugs from Starship Troopers.
Which, those would be good matches. Xeno vs The Thing, and Xenos vs Starship Trooper’s Arachnid Empire but I’d side with the Thing on that fight, but I think the Xenos might beat the Arachnids out because it’d be melee intense and melee isn’t usually to way to fight Xenos because of all that Acid.
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“In the movies, they are repeatedly destroyed by the advanced lifeforms (Human and Predator) and exterminated, outwitted and left very dead by various means, so I’m not sure how they have overcome, as in their key series, they are always destroyed by a female space trucker. I’m sure they give people quite a shock, but nothing I’ve seen says ‘Huge threat to all life in the universe.’ Like the way something like The Thing did.”
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I never said they were fucking invincible. They were created to be the ultimate biological weapon.
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“I’d like to know where this comes from. ”
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Of course you fucking would. What most of FP calls common knowledge, you call something you’d like proof for. I bet you’d ask me for proof if I told you my fucking name. You want proof? Fine.
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First, the food issue.
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“They are also a machine. They don’t require food, as we know it. They can eat but process it completely different, converting the materials directly into increasing its own size, or storing it for when it needs to create a hive. The aliens, for a better part of the word, are walking batteries, as they run on the acid blood in their veins. They also seem to have a programmed path. One cannot go rogue under the direction of its queen. They seem always under a fixed set of instructions given to them. They don’t have a digestive system as we know it nor do they even have eyes. They don’t grow as normal creatures do and they also don’t have a nervous system as we know it. In many ways, the Aliens are machines.”
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The Xenos don’t need food to survive, they use it to increase body mass.
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As for poison.
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“Aliens are immune to all other psychological problems as well as all known diseases. Electricity has only a half effect. Aliens can never be fatigued or stunned.”
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Both those quotes are from here.
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www.angelfire.com/oh2/Thrahn/Aliens.html
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Also, poisons work by travelling through the blood. Since the acid cannot transport oxygen or nutrients since it would destroy them, it’s fairly common knowledge to say that a toxin such as the Z virus would be destroyed as well.
” I put them like, a few steps below the Bugs from Starship Troopers.”
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Stupidest thing you have said. The Xenos have overcome planet after planet after planet. They were created as the perfect bio weapon, they were made to adapt. They adapted so well, that they shocked their creators when they were able to produce Royal Jelly. Their creators lost control of them and this is what started their reign of terror. The bugs from SST are just bugs. That’s an idiotic comparison.
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The website doesn’t have 1 single source on it. Anyone could have written that. At least wiki’s put sources on their stuff. Which movie or book has a quote stating that? Show me a wiki that has a source so I can try looking it up, because there is literally no source listed on that site.
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“What most of FP calls common knowledge, you call something you’d like proof for”
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Then it should be very easy to prove. No need for harsh language. I’d just like to know where it says they are inert to all chemicals and poisons. I remember in Aliens they thought about using nerve gas, but they weren’t sure it’d work on them, but it’d be a no limits fallacy to assume they are 100% immune to any sort of chemical tampering or poison.
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“Also, poisons work by travelling through the blood. Since the acid cannot transport oxygen or nutrients since it would destroy them, it’s fairly common knowledge to say that a toxin such as the Z virus would be destroyed as well.”
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Most poisons do not work in such a manner. Most nerve agents don’t need to even be taken in, just touching you will stop chemicals in your nerves to stop muscles and cause you to die of suffocation. Chlorine gas just reacts with the water lungs to form hydrochloric acid and eat your lungs out. Blister agents react to the water on your skin and eyes to do the same thing and leave horrible chemical burns on your body that can kill you.
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Think like mace, mace is just a chemical that blinds and makes your lungs foul up. It’s a non-lethal chemical weapon, and it needs no blood circulation to act upon it. As soon as it hits your eyes, it’s acting on you, and as soon as you breath it in, it’s acting on your lungs and mouth and throat. There are plenty of poisons and chemical weapons that are not limited by blood flow in your body. Blood agents like cyanide are the only ones I think are really limited in this manner.
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All a poison for Xenos would need to do is react with whatever chemicals are flowing in the Acid, or composes their exoskeleton. If you could make a chemical that had a chemical chain reaction within the acid blood, like adding chemical that upon reaction with the acid formed a liquid with a neutral pH instead, that could do the trick alone and kill them. Saying they are immune to chemical attack is like saying that there atoms and molecules are not able to be manipulated by the natural interactions they’d go through by being atoms and molecules. But, that’s enough of that.
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TL;DR your claims need a much, much more reputable source.
“The bugs from SST are just bugs”
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Apparently, you never saw Starship troopers. Don’t remember the Brain Bug, do you? The one that mind controlled people and sucked their brains out to learn more about them while also setting traps? The thing they were hunting for the 2nd half of the movie?
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If anything I say it’s a poor comparison because the Bugs from SST are more intellegent than Xenomorphs.
I’ve seen the movie more times than I care to count. And in no way, shape or form are they even close to the Xenos in any way. The Queens in the novels can telepathically talk to human hosts. The Brain Bug needs contact to do so.
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Quote from Xenos vs Pandora.
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“They tried but they failed. If you read the second novel you’d see that all attempts to find a biological solution has failed. They were genetically engineered to be immune to all forms of disease and poisons. Hence why even as far as into the 4th book xenos were still around on earth.”
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“Most poisons do not work in such a manner. Most nerve agents don’t need to even be taken in, just touching you will stop chemicals in your nerves to stop muscles and cause you to die of suffocation. Chlorine gas just reacts with the water lungs to form hydrochloric acid and eat your lungs out. Blister agents react to the water on your skin and eyes to do the same thing and leave horrible chemical burns on your body that can kill you”
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I’d like to know where this comes from.
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“Think like mace, mace is just a chemical that blinds and makes your lungs foul up. It’s a non-lethal chemical weapon, and it needs no blood circulation to act upon it. As soon as it hits your eyes, it’s acting on you, and as soon as you breath it in, it’s acting on your lungs and mouth and throat. There are plenty of poisons and chemical weapons that are not limited by blood flow in your body. Blood agents like cyanide are the only ones I think are really limited in this manner.”
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Mace is not a poison idiot. It is an irritant.
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“All a poison for Xenos would need to do is react with whatever chemicals are flowing in the Acid, or composes their exoskeleton. If you could make a chemical that had a chemical chain reaction within the acid blood, like adding chemical that upon reaction with the acid formed a liquid with a neutral pH instead, that could do the trick alone and kill them. Saying they are immune to chemical attack is like saying that there atoms and molecules are not able to be manipulated by the natural interactions they’d go through by being atoms and molecules. But, that’s enough of that.”
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Well, once you can figure out exactly how the Xeno body works, and once you can engineer a poison like the ones you hypothetically speak of, then you can use it in this argument. But since no poison has been found that kills the Xenos, your argument is moot.
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“but it’d be a no limits fallacy to assume they are 100% immune to any sort of chemical tampering or poison.”
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You are right, let me rephrase that. No KNOWN poison has shown to affect them. Maybe there is a poison somewhere that can kill a Xeno, but no one has found or used it.
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“If anything I say it’s a poor comparison because the Bugs from SST are more intellegent than Xenomorphs.”
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No. The bugs crawled over the dead bodies of their kin for hours while the humans shot the down by the hundreds when the bugs assaulted the small base. They are not smarter in any way. Any bug that kills a Xeno is dead. Suggest the match and we will debate it there. This is not the place.
“Chlorine can react with water in the mucosa of the lungs to form hydrochloric acid, an irritant that can be lethal”
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From the wikipedia page on Chlorine being used as a poison gas in WW1.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_gas#World_War_I
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You can also look up whatever poison and chemicals you want on there and see for yourself. Nerve agents, blister agents, and it’s all coming from chemistry and physics. Real science stuff.
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Xenos crawled over bodies of their own to get to people. They ran head on into fire to get in melee range. They used traps and such. They both display virtually the same tactics when facing humans. They are near mirrors of each other. They are just as smart, if not smarter. But, like you said, not the place for this discussion. I’ve actually been sending FP all sorts of battle suggestions, I have no idea when any of them will get posted.
Also, just because someone or something is a telepath doesn’t mean they are smarter. Reed Richards isn’t a telepath, but Jean Grey is. I’d still go with Richards being smarter. It’s not a good argument for which is smarter, but like I said, I digress again. Sorry, I run on when I get ideas in my brain.
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You are right, let me rephrase that. No KNOWN poison has shown to affect them. Maybe there is a poison somewhere that can kill a Xeno, but no one has found or used it.
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I can agree with that, that there is no known substance that is toxic to them.
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“Mace is not a poison idiot. It is an irritant.”
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Never said mace is a poison. Mace and Tear Gas are considered chemical weapons, but they obviously aren’t lethal as long as used as described (Mace is only like 1 or 2% concentrate). I just used to to describe how a chemical can effect people without any mechanism limited to blood flow in the body. That’s all. And an irritant can be considered poisonous. You can be poisoned and not be killed by it.
“Quote from Xenos vs Pandora.”
Doesn’t a quote from someone in another board count as ancedotal evidence, as he doesn’t describe a particular quote or anything outside of the ’4th book’ and ’2nd novel’ What series, what book is he referring to?
It’d be like me putting a quote up from another Terminator thread, that had someone state Terminators can lift trucks, as per the 3rd novelization and 5th comic.
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The questions would be, novelization of what, the movie or something else. What comic, a story of the future war, something else?
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And they’d be justified in those questions. Same here.
I think you guys are arguing about pretty useless things.
Intelligence thing shouldn’t be an issue. We should just take the facts on what the Xenos have done, and see if their tactics can ultimately help them in this battle. And I say yes..
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@Tech/Mana
You want to use X’s last decision on things? Here’s the posts:
#124
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“Ok here’s a list of the specific types of the 3 groups
Zombies:
4,999,900,000 Walking dead zombies
100,000Resident Evil zombies (bosses not included)
Xenomorphs:
10 Queen Xenomorphs
5 Predaliens
499,985Normal xenomorphs the ones seen on the movies
Terminators:
30 T-100s
20 T-1000s
40 T-Xs
800 T-101s
300 T-600s
9000 T-101s
39,810 T-150
Hope that clears everything up.”
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#132
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“Sorry looks like i got the names for the terminators mixed up
here are the types of terminators and the number of their groups.
Name: How many are there:
T-101 30
T-1000 20
T-X 40
T-700 800
T-600 300
T-100 48,810
NOTE: yes there is t 100 in terminator during Kyle Reese’s flash back. That’s all. I have to go.”
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I feel in X’s scenario, that Xenomorphs will win. He says “normal Xenomorphs” meaning the Xenos could have either Warriors or Drones in the hundreds of thousands.
Even being nice and giving Drones doesn’t give the Terminators a real advantage (zombies non-factor here..). There are still way too many Xenomorphs for the Terminators to handle, and their methods of attacking will make it too hard for the Terminators to keep track of all of them, especially in the midst of millions of zombies.
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““The T-800′s optical sensors can sample an extended range of visible frequencies, including infrared (which can allow it to see heated bodies in total darkness).”
Useless to detect Xenos
“This information is then displayed on a 40,000 bit digitized display.”
Having a wider range of colors visible to them doesn’t help that much…
But I’ll assume it works good at finding still, visible Xenomorphs.
“Concussion-proof lenses protect the T-800′s eyes, which are capable of moving independently. When using both eyes to track two different targets moving in different directions, depth perception is created artificially by creating a computer-generated off-angle ghost image.”
More useful then normal eyes, but less useful when trying to track multiple 30mph targets and it helps even less when the Term can only shoot one target at a time..
“The T-800 is capable of motion tracking (very big advantage against xenos), search modes, facial identification and recognition and has extensive vision enhancement capabilities including long range “zoom” (the T-800 can snap-magnify an image by around x15), motion analysis and “night vision.”
Sure this would help, if the Xenos tended to run straight at their targets from a mile a way, but given the cover of both the zombies and terrain (NYC), I would doubt that the Terminators could spot a Xenomorph until it was 100 meters away and the Aliens could destroy that distance in less than 8 seconds.
The Terminators don’t have much of a chance in X’s scenario especially when the zombies are there just to act as meat shields for the zombies. Not to mention if the Terminators don’t have a huge supply of ammo, they might just waste half of it on the zombie horde before realizing the Aliens were closing in.
“I think you guys are arguing about pretty useless things.
Intelligence thing shouldn’t be an issue. We should just take the facts on what the Xenos have done, and see if their tactics can ultimately help them in this battle. And I say yes..”
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Believe me, I know it is pointless….But I have to say this, intelligence always matters. The poison thing doesn’t.
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@Tech
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Also, if you wanna go by X’s scenario, there is no Skynet.
Intelligence doesn’t matter that much if their instinct gives them the same advantages that smarts would give in their situation.
Like when Tech/Mana started talking about how the Tremor graboids?(shriekers?) took down the radio tower and the car and other stuff, and made it seem intelligent, they found out that it was because of their instinct that made it do that, but it worked despite their ‘stupidity’.
So basically, I’m saying the Xenomorph’s instinct or intelligence in hunting isn’t going to change just because you label it. It would be conjecture to say Xenomorphs would suddenly learn how to use Terminator weapons from their high IQ because they’ve never been shown to use weapons (just an example). It wouldn’t be conjecture to say that the Xenomorphs would find alternate methods to attack the Terminators while making use of their acid because they HAVE done that.
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On another note, how do we know the Terminators will get melted by Xeno acid? Titanium alloy isn’t exactly the same as steel grating, even if the acid melted straight through multiple layers/inches of it.
I googled Terminator vs Xenomorph and there’s a lot of people saying Titanium is more resistant to corrosion and wouldn’t hurt harm the Terms especially with multiple inches of it as armor.
The acid melted through three levels of the ship. The ship was made of several metals including titanium. Plus, the acid has been said to have a pH of -2.5 or lower.We haven’t found anything that can resist that.
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“Intelligence doesn’t matter that much if their instinct gives them the same advantages that smarts would give in their situation.”
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I disagree. Instinct does not fill the same role as intelligence. Instinct will cause the Xenos to construct a hive first. Intelligence will cause them to make it in a easily fortified place. Instinct will cause them to stay in the shadows. Intelligence will allow them to draw the Terms into the shadows. It doesn’t really matter what you call it, as long as you recognize the effectiveness of the Xenos in combat.
Also, who ever said anything about the Xenos using the Term’s guns?
“The acid melted through three levels of the ship. The ship was made of several metals including titanium. Plus, the acid has been said to have a pH of -2.5 or lower. We haven’t found anything that can resist that.”
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I never heard of that. How would one know what kind of metal the insides of the ship would be, and how would you calculate the pH of something that you can never contain?
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“I disagree. Instinct does not fill the same role as intelligence. Instinct will cause the Xenos to construct a hive first. Intelligence will cause them to make it in a easily fortified place. Instinct will cause them to stay in the shadows. Intelligence will allow them to draw the Terms into the shadows.”
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Instinct could cause them to want to construct a hive in a safer area.
Instinct could cause them to lure prey in so they aren’t discovered.
They can be interchanged in this place because we don’t know how Xenomorphs work. Not to mention that this is a very controversial topic, best not to dive into it and digress.
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“It doesn’t really matter what you call it, as long as you recognize the effectiveness of the Xenos in combat.”
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Which was what I was trying to say.
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“Also, who ever said anything about the Xenos using the Term’s guns?”
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“(just an example).”
“The newborn is not a Xeno. It has been mixed with Human DNA, to a high degree which could explain it’s heightened intellect.”
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They understand English in the novels as well hence where they got that from.
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“Because those Xenos had been mixed with Ripley’s DNA during the cloning process at the start of the movie. They are mutations just like Ripley is. (Why Ripley has acid blood and heightened abilities and the Queen later gives mammalian-style birth) similar gene splicing could give them increased intellegence over the non-hybrid xenos. This gene splicing from the cloning process went way, way beyond the normal Xenomorph horizontal gene sharing they do when they use a host.”
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They did the same in AvP when Scar got his hands on the Plasma Caster. Those were not hybrids either. Most of what you see in the newest movies were taken from earlier comics and novels. In the comics and novels they knew what explosives and guns were thus they knew to move.
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“So, when they tested it using a empty barrel and the sentries blow it away, whats stopping the Xenos from doing a similar thing if they have such intellegence? It seems like it’ll shoot at anything that’s moving. So yes, a rock not moving wouldn’t do anything, but throw a deck plate at it, see what it does. Or even knock it over to disable it? Search for a way around after the first 15 had been shot and gotten no where doing it.”
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You’re not listening. I clearly stated they have multiple methods of tracking. However the most common method of tracking is to set the target parameters directly into the weapon thus only shooting targets that look roughly like what is implanted into the machine thus rendering decoys null. Only if you were equipped with stealth suits would you be able to get past.
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“Search for a way around after the first 15 had been shot and gotten no where doing it.”
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How many were shot were never fully stated thus I don’t know where you got this number from.
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“The M250 is the round it’s using the my understanding. It’s the M41 Pulse rifle and the M56 Smart gun using M250 10mm rounds.”
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Then you understand wrong.
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““As oppose to the aliens in the first two movies which fed on food supplies that they could find and that were also suitable for human beings, the Runner ate his victims with ferocious appetite and ate almost each and every one of them. Many insects and some arachnids eat only living or freshly killed food and are carnivorous only.””
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Xenos can eat but once again they don’t need to once reaching maturity. They can go for years with nothing to eat. This is what the canon says.
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“The info you seem to have cited from post 467 is for the 10 mm Auto round, not the grenade launcher device.”
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The 10mm round has a muzzle velocity of 850m/s. The grenade launcher 400m/s. Source is page 16 of the Colonial Marine Technical Manual.
“I never heard of that. How would one know what kind of metal the insides of the ship would be, and how would you calculate the pH of something that you can never contain?”
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Then look it up yourself. Watch the documentary Anatomy of an Alien. It is speculated that the acid is a type of hydroflouric acid. And the only thing hydroflouric acid doesn’t react with is teflon, so some say that the Xeno’s shell is made of some form of teflon. If you’re going to ask me to provide a link for every fucking word I say then expect me to look up proof for the claims you make, then you look this one up.
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“You can also look up whatever poison and chemicals you want on there and see for yourself. Nerve agents, blister agents, and it’s all coming from chemistry and physics. Real science stuff.”
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How about you do it yourself. Burden of Proof. I’m still waiting.
@reaper
The bugs in the original sst had interstellar capabilities and had conquered nearly half the galaxy. They had advanced societies and beam weapons, the movie is a sad cheap knockoff.
“ “That would mean that whatever is in that location would be available for use since it was not specifically noted otherwise.”
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You can’t assume that. The match has to explicitly state that there are ammo deposits. “
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Whatever is in the environment has always been available in other matches unless ruled out specifically and New York is prime territory for trouble so Skynet would have supplies on hand to support operations. Of course it does not really matter because no one ever seems to run out of ammunition in these things anyway; even when it is something very rare or even unique (like Halo’s super nuke) the debates always trot out endless supplies of them. Really, trying to force the terminators into hand to hand even though they are primarily firearm using units is another attempt to rewrite the scenario to give the Xenos all of the advantages and handicap everyone else. The Skynet forces are already hampered by not having any of the mainline combat units available and have to get by with only secondaries like infiltration and tunnel rat units (which is what the terminators are). How much of a handicap do the Xenos need to have an even chance of winning anyway?
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“ It was 2 days old. It was young, it doesn’t matter what stage of it’s life it is in, it is 2 days old. And physical maturation has no effect on life experience. If humans grew to full maturity in 2 days, we would still have to learn everything. Like I said, find me a 2 day old primate and see if it can fucking walk let alone solve basic puzzles. Face it, you are wrong. And seeing as how you have no response to the quote I posted, this intelligence argument is done. Nobody said the Xenos were geniuses. The Queen is close, but still no. My point is that the Xenos are smart, cunning and tactical. “
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The aliens do not have to learn anything; they have genetic memory so the experiences of their ancestors provide training. If they were really geniuses with that genetic memory available they would be building their own ships and weapons by now. A two day old seeker missile can track and kill its target as well as ten year old one of the same model for the same reason: it is created with all the information it needs for its job and does not have to rely on experience and intelligence to formulate a method of doing it from scratch. Really they have not shown anything that could not be accomplished by the proverbial 90 IQ hillfolk recruit with standard military training, or for that matter by very highly trained chimpanzees. Even ants show a certain amount of tactical ability because their instincts are formed by those that survive and better tactical instincts result in better survival.
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In the quote about the genius queen the viewpoint character was obsessing about how unusually intelligent it was which is a good indication that the run of the mill queens are not that smart by a long shot. It takes a considerable difference in IQ for it to be noticeable even in humans by action alone, and I seriously doubt they get many Xeno queens to sit for the test to find out that way.
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“ The aliens of Aliens defeated a highly trained and highly equipped marines. Such approach represents how dangerous and terrifying aliens really are because they’re going against military and they’re portrayed as advanced military themselves. It’s hard to see how lethal the aliens really are that well when unarmed weaker opponents are facing the alien. If an adult person beats up a smaller, helpless child it doesn’t really show how tough he is, but if he beats up a person who’s armed with knives and sticks and baseball bat then it’s a different story.”
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It also shows how poorly equipped, poorly informed, and overconfident they were going in, and how incompetent their superiors were in sending in such a small force in the first place despite the information Ripley gave them. Their overconfidence led them to screw up by the numbers right from the start. They failed to consider any contingency plans, took only one transport that they landed at the edge of the conflict zone without any precautions taken to secure it against attack, failed to leave anyone on overwatch in the ship, and too many other blunders to list. By the time they realized that it was not going to be a cakewalk and started taking it seriously there were only a few of them left.
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This also points out the incompetence of the idots who sent them. Sulaco was sent out without even a full complement judging by all the equipment and space on the thing and the fact that all of them had to go down just to get a full squad on the ground against an enemy that is known to convert people into enemy combat units. Even at one to one ratio maximum with allowance for those who theoretically would be killed instead of implanted the simple size of the colony alone should have prompted them to send more troops in especially if more could fit on the ship they already planned to send out anyway. A single halfway competent full platoon that played it smart instead of scrambling to get out from under their own blunders would have probably wiped the things out, especially if they were not undermined by treacherous corporate flunkeys whose purpose is to make the situation desperate enough for the ship to bug out for home without proper quarantine procedures in order to smuggle the things in. And no, it was not a commando raid by a Seal team quality unit either, it was an ordinary ‘factfinding’ recon and bughunt by regular troops with at least a bit of a reputation as screwups, or at least that is the impression the shipboard scenes give before the drop.
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Yet again Tech, you ignore EVERYTHING about the Xenos. They will not rush the Terms, what part of “Masters of Stealth” do you not understand? And even if they do rush and are gunned down by the hundreds….hundreds of losses mean nothing to a force of 500,000. “
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And yet they did exactly that against the marines with their sentry guns until it became obvious that they had to use other methods to get to them. They do show some tactical sense, but they are not much if any better at it than very clever animals. They do not show any tech savvy at all, just simple “push the round spot on the wall like the prey did and this happens” observations. The one that killed the dropship crew watched the moron in the troop bay finally close the ramp after leaving it unguarded long enough for it to get in and hide. They see humans somehow move fast inside of dead metal beasts and birds and understand from their genetic memory that one squishy enemy creature sits somewhere in the big hard one and tells it where to go and killing it stops the bigger unkillable creature from doing anything so it cannot go back and get more squishies. The smartest ones shown in the movies are the three stooges that escape from the titanium cube by killing the center one so it would bleed a hole in the floor and those are heavily contaminated by Ripelys DNA and so may not even be typical of the species (though it is not even that smart in itself since they seem to have the acid trick hardwired in instinct), the highest sign of humanlike intelligence in the scene is really the “I’m not going to do it, you do it” body language showing these particular ones are at least slightly self-aware. Trying to apply traits from natural species to say that a two day old Xeno is young like a two year old human is pointless and wrong; they are for all practical purposes self replicating biotech robots with tactics and other memories built in from the start.
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“ They charged the guns to waste the ammo. “
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That is vaguely possible, though it is just conjecture and does not fit the facts very well without adding extra complexity to accommodate it. How do you know their intentions when they are not revealed in the movies? Occam’s razor leans more towards a tactical ouch followed by plan B.
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“ Here the Alien understands English
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjZ7Cb5WDLM “
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“Baby” is not even a true Xenomorph, it is a one-shot result of scientists bungling genetic separation so the Aliens in that movie have more human genetics than normal (just look at the thing to see proof of that). The as far as determining normal Alien feats from that particular movie goes the sample is hopelessly contaminated. If scientists gene spliced a sheep with enough human genetics to have human features and gave it memories from the human donor it might understand English too.
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“ Here them knowing what guns are and reacting accordingly
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=SksWfx_7_U8 “
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See the preceding paragraph. Also animals react to guns; it is nothing that requires high intelligence.
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“ That’s not how the Turret works. The Turrets track via ultrasonic motion tracker meaning shit like rocks don’t fool it it has to be actively moving in a certain pattern, changes in ambient lighting, Lidar and infrared. However the beauty of these is that if you know that basic visual profile of you preferred target they can be downloaded directly into the guns AI and they will only target that particular target styling. “
-
If they were smart enough to recognize the danger of the guns right off the bat they would have gone around them after the first one was blown apart. For that matter since there were so few of the xenos they would have not wasted so many charging the guns if they had any sense. If they had real human level intelligence they could probably have come up with something to spoof the guns (like using the false ceiling like they did with the live troops for instance) if they really understood the limits of the guns.
-
===
“ Well, since the Xenos are immune to any kind of poison or toxin, it’s safe to say that the Zombie flesh will do just fine as a food source. “
===
True, unless like the insects mentioned they require it to be alive or recently killed. Zombies are hardly fresh.
============
“ I’d like to know where this comes from. It’s hard for me to imagine a creature that no matter what chemicals it’s made of, is inert to any other combination of molecules or chemicals that could cause it harm. No way to manipulate it’s biology into harm via a virus or a bacteria. I’m not saying the zombie virus would necessarily work, but I’d like something that says that Xenos are 100% immune to being poisoned or harmed chemically. You’d think being able to give them a large dose of a base chemical would kill them by altering body chemistry, reacting with the acid in their blood or whatever. “
==========
It goes with the magic acid blood that somehow knows what is a xenomorph and leaves it alone while unrealistically supposedly dissolving every material in existence, even those that the xenomorph is made out of.
-
===
“ Also, poisons work by travelling through the blood. Since the acid cannot transport oxygen or nutrients since it would destroy them, it’s fairly common knowledge to say that a toxin such as the Z virus would be destroyed as well. “
-
There are other vectors for poison than blood, like the lymphatic system or whatever though blood does make for convenient transport. The trick is that blood-born chemical poison is dissolved in the blood anyway so acid blood would not be a total defense to it. It is even theoretically possible that something could pierce the alien and the act of the blood dissolving it poison the creature. Shooting something like tums laced bullets could possibly cause gas bubbles in the acid blood and pop them like gerbils in the microwave for that matter (yes, it is a silly example but the theory is still valid). Resistance if fine, but this immunity to everything is utterly ridiculous. The movies are not that bad, but the no-limits nonsense with the blood irritates the hell out of me which is probably why I liked the polar AVP movie where the acid made a little more sense than it does in most of the other media (though even that one was not exactly a shining example of logic either).
-
“ The website doesn’t have 1 single source on it. Anyone could have written that. At least wiki’s put sources on their stuff. Which movie or book has a quote stating that? Show me a wiki that has a source so I can try looking it up, because there is literally no source listed on that site. “
-
Fan pages like that are even worse sources than wikis.
-
“ More useful then normal eyes, but less useful when trying to track multiple 30mph targets and it helps even less when the Term can only shoot one target at a time.. “
-
Numerous times terminators have been shown shooting multiple targets simultaneously accurately with weapons pointed in completely different directions from each other.
-
“ Sure this would help, if the Xenos tended to run straight at their targets from a mile a way, but given the cover of both the zombies and terrain (NYC), I would doubt that the Terminators could spot a Xenomorph until it was 100 meters away and the Aliens could destroy that distance in less than 8 seconds. “
-
The Colonial Marines could see them just fine with their motion detectors. That and the fact that the movie cameras and the characters both see the aliens without trouble visually unless they are hiding behind things means that the Terminators would be able to see them just as well or better. There is the flip side as well, in that the Aliens did not seem to see tech very well and not all of the terminators have living sheaths in this (600’s have rubber skin, 700s usually do not have any sheath at all and early model 800s (below 850) sheaths tend to die quickly with damage so many of them would appear to be harmless (and useless to the xenos) zombies or would have shed the sheath already). As to the movement the humanoid Xenos do not seem to run any faster than the Terminators so a charge would turn into a game of tag with the Terminators being able to tag from a distance.
-
“ On another note, how do we know the Terminators will get melted by Xeno acid? Titanium alloy isn’t exactly the same as steel grating, even if the acid melted straight through multiple layers/inches of it. “
-
Only the 600 series uses plain titanium alloys, later ones use coltan alloys that would be more acid resistant since tantalum (the ‘tan’ in coltan) is one of the most acid resistant metals. Though the Terminators are made with coltan alloys for heat resitance (it is probably why the 850 did not get holes burned right through it from the T-X’s plasma gun instead of just damaging its primary hydrogen cell) its acid resistance will help them here since it would take more exposure and the Terminators are smart enough to avoid getting drenched. The quote about that is from Sarah Connor Cronicles:
“John: That’s coltan; if that’s what you’re made of, no wonder you’re so dense.
Cameron: Not density, heat resistance. T-600 models had a titanium alloy endoskeleton, but it was vulnerable to heat. Coltan alloys have a much higher melting point. “
-
===
“ Then look it up yourself. Watch the documentary Anatomy of an Alien. It is speculated that the acid is a type of hydroflouric acid. And the only thing hydroflouric acid doesn’t react with is teflon, so some say that the Xeno’s shell is made of some form of teflon. “
-
Unfortunately it does not act like hydrofluoric acid; if it did I would not have such an objection to it. Hydrofluoric is one of the few acids that will do much to tantalum though even then it is much slower acting than it is on other metals unless it is heated up to 150 degrees or more.
-
“ The bugs in the original sst had interstellar capabilities and had conquered nearly half the galaxy. They had advanced societies and beam weapons, the movie is a sad cheap knockoff. “
-
That’s for sure. The Japanese anime version is a lot closer to the book than the “Space Above and Beyond” like movie and a lot better done as well, and anime in general is not known for sticking to the original story when they do adaptations. The bugs in the book even had better antigravity than the humans did when it came to tech. The only thing that kept the humans going was the mobile infantry armor and its contribution to highly mobile dynamic warfare. The walled forts in the movies would have been even more useless in the books than they were in the movies.
BC made a lot of good points out about things, so I won’t try to recover too much territory that he’s already put down for my thoughts on this right now.
============
“They understand English in the novels as well hence where they got that from.”
=====================
What novels of which series? Just vaugely saying ‘they got it from the novels’ doesn’t help. Can you tell us which book in particular, a scan or a quote would be best so that others can verify the info.
==================================
“It goes with the magic acid blood that somehow knows what is a xenomorph and leaves it alone while unrealistically supposedly dissolving every material in existence, even those that the xenomorph is made out of.”
=====
I don’t think it’s magical. Just like the way your body has cells that keep your stomach acid from destroying your insides, I’m sure the Aliens have all sorts of means of keeping the acid blood from killing themselves due to their biology, whether being specialized cells, or a cells of polarized silicone or whatever. Nothing magical about it.
=========
“…but given the cover of both the zombies and terrain (NYC), I would doubt that the Terminators could spot a Xenomorph until it was 100 meters away.”
=======
Even taking cover might not help out xenos too much, as in the first Terminator, it was able to shoot a police officer through a wall to reach it’s target predicting it’s path and where it’d likely be behind the wall.
====
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkreOzecZ7A&feature=player_detailpage#t=99s
===
So my thoughts for now. I’m actually really impressed by BCs retort. Everyone’s got such good ideas and arguments. Good stuff.
“Then you understand wrong.”
Actually, did quite a few google searches, it seems the M56 Smart gun uses M250 10mm ammo. However, the ammo is different for whatever reason they both seem to be called M250. M41 pulse rifle using 10x24mm, and the Smart gun using 10x28mm ammo. But it’s conjecture. I accept that the Smart gun uses a more powerful round than the Pulse rifle.
Could you also post a quote or something from that Tech manual, cause I’m seeing a lot of things from various wikis and Google search results that have the grenade launcher having a muzzle velocity of 78 m/s and only a 400 m range. Can post a scan from that Tech Manual?
“Whatever is in the environment has always been available in other matches unless ruled out specifically and New York is prime territory for trouble so Skynet would have supplies on hand to support operations. Of course it does not really matter because no one ever seems to run out of ammunition in these things anyway; even when it is something very rare or even unique (like Halo’s super nuke) the debates always trot out endless supplies of them. Really, trying to force the terminators into hand to hand even though they are primarily firearm using units is another attempt to rewrite the scenario to give the Xenos all of the advantages and handicap everyone else. The Skynet forces are already hampered by not having any of the mainline combat units available and have to get by with only secondaries like infiltration and tunnel rat units (which is what the terminators are). How much of a handicap do the Xenos need to have an even chance of winning anyway?”
===
Ever heard of neutral battlefield? There is no ammo on the field because that would give the Terminators an unfair advantage. Find me one match where it was assumed that there was ammo or supplies on the field, otherwise shut your skank mouth and learn the rules. Again, read the fucking match, nobody is forcing the Terms into hand to hand, why would we even be debating abut weapon statistics if we were? Idiot. The Xenos can win without handicaps. You’re the one bitching that they get supplies and gift baskets, the Xenos can do this with their bare claws.
===
“A two day old seeker missile can track and kill its target as well as ten year old one of the same model for the same reason”
===
You really are a fucking moron. A missile IS NOT FUCKING ALIVE. It is PROGRAMMED you dumb ass. Nothing you say brings any value to the debate. Same with the Xeno vs Pandora debate, you don’t read the comments, you make unnecessarily long posts about the stupidest shit, and you derail the thread like someone is paying you. The Xenos genetic memory is only active in a hive. Because all the members are connected through the Queen. When it is one Xeno, it is on it’s own. Learn before you speak.
===
“In the quote about the genius queen the viewpoint character was obsessing about how unusually intelligent it was which is a good indication that the run of the mill queens are not that smart by a long shot. It takes a considerable difference in IQ for it to be noticeable even in humans by action alone, and I seriously doubt they get many Xeno queens to sit for the test to find out that way.”
===
Well your “serious doubts” don’t mean shit. Find a quote and disprove it. Otherwise, fuck off.
===
“And yet they did exactly that against the marines with their sentry guns until it became obvious that they had to use other methods to get to them. They do show some tactical sense, but they are not much if any better at it than very clever animals. They do not show any tech savvy at all, just simple “push the round spot on the wall like the prey did and this happens” observations. The one that killed the dropship crew watched the moron in the troop bay finally close the ramp after leaving it unguarded long enough for it to get in and hide. They see humans somehow move fast inside of dead metal beasts and birds and understand from their genetic memory that one squishy enemy creature sits somewhere in the big hard one and tells it where to go and killing it stops the bigger unkillable creature from doing anything so it cannot go back and get more squishies. The smartest ones shown in the movies are the three stooges that escape from the titanium cube by killing the center one so it would bleed a hole in the floor and those are heavily contaminated by Ripelys DNA and so may not even be typical of the species (though it is not even that smart in itself since they seem to have the acid trick hardwired in instinct), the highest sign of humanlike intelligence in the scene is really the “I’m not going to do it, you do it” body language showing these particular ones are at least slightly self-aware. Trying to apply traits from natural species to say that a two day old Xeno is young like a two year old human is pointless and wrong; they are for all practical purposes self replicating biotech robots with tactics and other memories built in from the start.”
===
Wrong, you still don’t get genetic memory. Every Xeno in the galaxy does not share the same memories, that is reserved for the members of Hives. And you compared a Xeno to a fucking missile idiot, they are ALIVE. They are referred to as machines because that is how effective they are. They are more like humans than a machine. Also, seeing as how the claims I made were backed up by actual proof, whatever you say doesn’t mean shit unless you have proof too. James Cameron even said those things I was quoting.
===
“That is vaguely possible, though it is just conjecture and does not fit the facts very well without adding extra complexity to accommodate it. How do you know their intentions when they are not revealed in the movies? Occam’s razor leans more towards a tactical ouch followed by plan B”
===
I POSTED FUCKING PROOF!! GET FUCKING REAL! Read the debate like everything else instead of fucking stumbling in like a retarded fat kid in a ball pit.
===
“It goes with the magic acid blood that somehow knows what is a xenomorph and leaves it alone while unrealistically supposedly dissolving every material in existence, even those that the xenomorph is made out of.”
===
Your mother drank while she was carrying you didn’t she? If you think that because the blood is magic because it doesn’t dissolve the Xeno then you really are fucking stupid. I mean it. How the fuck do you think our stomachs are able to contain the very strong acids inside them without melting? SAME FUCKING CONCEPT! Nobody EVER said it dissolves everything. And you just contradicted yourself, you said it magically knows not to dissolve a Xeno, then you say it even dissolves the materials a Xeno is made out of. You have no credit on this sight, not a fucking ounce of credit.
===
“The Colonial Marines could see them just fine with their motion detectors”
===
Uh…when they were fucking moving. They were able to fool the sensors very easily.
===
“Zombies are hardly fresh.”
===
They are fucking HUMANS. GOD you’re stupid.
===
“Numerous times terminators have been shown shooting multiple targets simultaneously accurately with weapons pointed in completely different directions from each other.”
===
Show us then.
===
@Tech
I know it’s nice not to be the only one debating for your side. But at least you have some idea of what you are talking about. If you think that BC has brought up good points, then you’re just losing credibility yourself. Stick with YOUR arguments, because they actually make sense. BC is a moron of the highest caliber and I would hate to see you stoop to his level just because he is on your side.
“Even taking cover might not help out xenos too much, as in the first Terminator, it was able to shoot a police officer through a wall to reach it’s target predicting it’s path and where it’d likely be behind the wall.”
===
HA, that video didn’t show shit Tech! Adding words like “predicting” are the same as putting frosting on a turd. The cop was behind a wall for one second before he was shot. He followed him with the gun and shot, that is all. Plus he was 7 feet away when he did it. A human can do that like nothing. Shooting a dumb cop though drywall at 7 feet away is not the same as shooting an animal that doesn’t show up on your sensors, moving at 35 mph, behind an entire building, with hundreds of thousands of them doing the same thing.
“animal that doesn’t show up on your sensors”
=============
Are you saying Xenos can’t be tracked by motion, or seen? That they wouldn’t show up on a camera? A very good, well trained human might be able to do this, but not while being shot, and not one arming an assault rifle. And no, not everyone can do this. A lot of people would miss a person even at that range going full auto. Happens all the time, having 2 people shoot each other and not hitting either person let alone behind things.
==============
165/FX INT. DIVISION HQ/OFFICE – TERMINATOR’S POV 165/FX
In computer-enhanced vision we see the cop dash around a
corner in SLOW MOTION. As he disappears behind the wall
an ANIMATED OUTLINE OF HIM is still visible…a PROBABILISTIC
EXTRAPOLATION OF HIS MOTION. There is a target cross-
hair following the figure.
CUT TO:
166 INT. DIVISION HQ/OFFICE – BEHIND WALL 166
The wall erupts with a volley of shots beside the running
cop and he is flung OUT OF FRAME.
===========
Source is The Terminator script written by James Cameron.
=========
“Ever heard of neutral battlefield”
Yes. It would be that if the match didn’t specifically state the battlefield is in the Terminators backyard.
===========
“nobody is forcing the Terms into hand to hand, why would we even be debating abut weapon statistics if we were? Idiot. The Xenos can win without handicaps”
Well, stop making one of your key arguments that they will run out of bullets so they will go melee and be swarmed. It’s set in New York, and the time of Skynet, Terminator home turf, and home advantage. If this was LV-426 where they’d be stranded it’d be different, but they aren’t.
=========
“They were able to fool the sensors very easily.”
By standing still and happening to be in a hive where they blended in. If they tried that out in the skull and ash filled landscape of the scenario that matches them in no way , it’d be extremely easy pickings because the Terminators would just see them and shoot them.
=========
“They are fucking HUMANS. GOD you’re stupid.”
Humans are not mentioned anywhere for this matchup. There are zombies. Walking dead. Moving corpses. Decaying flesh. Zombies=/= Humans.
=====
“They are referred to as machines because that is how effective they are.”
=======
Or just how programmed they are in their behavior. Reminds me of another similar quote taking living things and machines. As Hooper said to the Mayor.
“Mr. Vaughn, what we are dealing with here is a perfect engine, an eating machine. It’s really a miracle of evolution. All this machine does is swim and eat and make little sharks, and that’s all.”
=======
I’d think when people think of Xenos as machines, it’s more like that, and less about their efficiency.
===========
And the biggest thing I can say to you reaper, is calm down. Redrum, BC and I feel, myself, are being pretty civil. You need to tone it down a notch when you decide you are going to refute someone’s claim, and not take it so personally when someone refutes yours.
“Well, stop making one of your key arguments that they will run out of bullets so they will go melee and be swarmed. It’s set in New York, and the time of Skynet, Terminator home turf, and home advantage. If this was LV-426 where they’d be stranded it’d be different, but they aren’t.”
===
That is far from my key argument. And it is true, they will run out of bullets. FP rules state that no matter where the battle takes place, it will not favor one side. Learn the rules.
===
“Yes. It would be that if the match didn’t specifically state the battlefield is in the Terminators backyard.”
===
The term “neutral battlefield” isn’t something I made up. It’s in the FP rules.
===
“Humans are not mentioned anywhere for this matchup. There are zombies. Walking dead. Moving corpses. Decaying flesh. Zombies=/= Humans.”
===
A zed is a dead human essentially. Meaning there is flesh. You just said so yourself. Zombie=Dead human.
===
““Mr. Vaughn, what we are dealing with here is a perfect engine, an eating machine. It’s really a miracle of evolution. All this machine does is swim and eat and make little sharks, and that’s all.””
===
A machine doesn’t reproduce or eat. Your quote just proved you wrong. The term machines in regards to the Xenos is used as an adjective, same way a guy who works out everyday might e referred to as a machine by his friends.
===
“You need to tone it down a notch when you decide you are going to refute someone’s claim, and not take it so personally when someone refutes yours.”
===
First of all, if I want to tone it down, it will not be because of you. Second, I would tone it down if I was talking to sensible people (I am talking about BC, Tech, you’re more or less an intelligent person). I don’t care how many people you think are being civil. I’m not going to tone anything down. If I were just insulting people and saying stupid shit, then you would be right in saying I need to tone it down. But seeing as how I have been making actual arguments and providing proof and contributing to this debate, get off my dick and focus on the argument. Plus, it’s 4 am and I have fucking community service tomorrow. Take that into consideration.
===
You also have to remember that BC’s comments were so pointless, that he was completely ignored at one point in Xenos vs Pandora. Which was over 1,000 comments.
===
Question, when did you become a member of FP Tech?
That is far from my key argument
=========
I never said it was your only one, but its one brought up often enough to warrent mention.
As for the ‘neutral battlefield’ rule, that can be suspended via the first rule, that Battle scenarios are supreme, specifically and I quote:
======
All debating rules in FactPile are subject to be altered or otherwise ignored in the battle’s scenario.
======
Because its Skynet owned New York, as stated, its in Terminator territory, which may give them advantages.
======
A machine doesn’t reproduce or eat. Your quote just proved you wrong.
========
Lulz did you honestly just take that as a literal statement. It wasn’t literal here, nor in the movie its quoted from. No where did you think it might have been a metaphorical comparison like how you describe xenos?
And in a context machines do eat and reproduce. There are machines that make cars and even other machines like themselves. And all machines consume fuel, power and/ or electricity. They ‘eat’ up power and ‘drink’ gas. Depends how you want to see things.
In short, I think you might have adjective, metaphors and similes all mixed up.
======
I’ve been providing plenty of proof, from videos to scans and transcripts.
And your question is immaterial and coming in on an ad hominem line of questioning.
But if you must know, I’ve been a member around the beginning of this year.
Tech, your wrong about ammo. Since this is Skynet’s New York, it’s a nuclear wasteland, no ammo deposits; they’re all spent or destroyed. Since Skynet’s not in this, (because X is completely ignorant about all sides), they have none of Skynet’s deposits. Now, seriously, admin’s not coming, let’s just vote.
“And your question is immaterial and coming in on an ad hominem line of questioning.”
===
It was a friendly question, I was about to welcome you to the site since this is the first time I have seen you here. But fuck you too then.
===
“Lulz did you honestly just take that as a literal statement. It wasn’t literal here, nor in the movie its quoted from. No where did you think it might have been a metaphorical comparison like how you describe xenos?”
===
Why the fuck does it matter? Is how I describe them vs how you describe them going to alter the match? Seriously, you’re starting to get annoying because you bring up the stupidest points that have no effect on the match, and then it turns into a back and forth that serves no purpose.
===
Epic is right. Admin is not coming, he has forsaken us. We need to vote. (This’ll be fun.)
===
Seriously, you are wrong about the ammo. Drop it.
Are you saying such facilities never existed. That no where in Skynets buildings, facilities, and whatever there were no amma depots? No central place for making or distributing ammo? How did Terminators get ammo then?
======
I agree Skynet, the AI intellect, is not present here, but that doesn’t mean the builds and facilities that are in Skynets New York are not there. The city stands.Terminators would have intimate knowledge of such facilities and where the ammo would be, and which buildings would be best to set up a base with.
======
Also, without an admin, any terms we agree upon can still be overwritten later by an admin, and all sides would have to agree on terms. No where does it call for a vote in the rules.
========
Battle Scenarios that are not clear, or have obviated crucial elements, must be brought to the attention of; A) Admin; B) the battle’s poster; C) the battle’s creator. Any scenario to be altered must be approved by Admin, or any party appointed by him, to be made official. That said, debates may continue without an official determination made if all sides agree upon the disputed terms, but any outcome from these may be rendered null by an official ruling at a later time.
=====
That’s from the 1st rule about battle scenarios.
The best we can do is come to an agreement on what in the scenario is being disputed, which is the xeno, terms, and zombie class distribution in their numbers. Which, of that, X only wanted things from the movies to be used.
And REAPER, I’m sorry for biting your head off about that question. The 521 post still had me fuming I guess. I sincerely apologize, and thank you for welcoming me.
“Are you saying such facilities never existed. That no where in Skynets buildings, facilities, and whatever there were no amma depots? No central place for making or distributing ammo? How did Terminators get ammo then?:
===
No, he is saying that they are not present in this match. That’s like have MC vs Spider Man, battle takes place on Reach, at the same time Halo:Reach takes place, then saying MC wins because he can just go get a Scorpion tank and run Spidey over. Just because the battle takes place somewhere, doesn’t mean everything that was in that place in the original universe is there.
===
” A) Admin; B) the battle’s poster; C) the battle’s creator”
===
Aren’t B and C the same thing? And Admin posts most of the battle so A and B or the same too (most of the time.)
===
“The best we can do is come to an agreement on what in the scenario is being disputed, which is the xeno, terms, and zombie class distribution in their numbers. Which, of that, X only wanted things from the movies to be used.”
===
If we are taking it to a vote, then by definition X’s word means shit….you know….because we were forced to put it to a vote in the first place. And voting is better than what we are doing now. At least then we will be able to get something done.
“And REAPER, I’m sorry for biting your head off about that question. The 521 post still had me fuming I guess. I sincerely apologize, and thank you for welcoming me.”
===
It’s all good.
Aren’t B and C the same thing? And Admin posts most of the battle so A and B or the same too (most of the time.)
======
That’s kinda how I feel about b and c, but those are the rules. My understanding is that admin puts it up from those battle requests. By admin, suggested by whoever.
====
Any other scenario we suggest, put to a vote whatever can just be shot down by an admin later. Also, it says all sides have to agree, not just the ones in the majority, because the more popular side can make an inherently unfair scenario and push it through because they have more voters for one side, and that’s not fair. That’s probably why the rules don’t mention voting, but an agreement by all sides.
=====
The battle field is taking place where it is stated in the scenario, a skynet controlled New York, yet you insist that nothing, absolutely nothing is there. You have suggested Xenos use sewers and tunnels, and buildings, but Terminators cannot do the same? Use there own buildings in this setting provided?
=======
You’re constantly trying to recreate this scenario so Terms don’t have enough ammo to do anything, and force them into a fist fight with xenos, which yes, they’ll probably lose then.
======
..I still fail to see how the Terminators can win even with ammo.
I still fail to see how the Terminators can win even with ammo
=============
By shooting them perhaps?
I don’t see how Xenos really pull this off unless we take away guns from the Terms.
“You have suggested Xenos use sewers and tunnels, and buildings, but Terminators cannot do the same? Use there own buildings in this setting provided?”
===
The sewers are part of the landscape. It is not the same as getting supplies. The Terms can use the buildings and sewers all they want. But saying that using the landscape and assuming that supplies are present are two different thing.
===
“By shooting them perhaps?
I don’t see how Xenos really pull this off unless we take away guns from the Terms.”
===
If the match was on a flat plain, then I would probably side with the Terms. But it isn’t, so I’m not.
If the match was on a flat plain, then I would probably side with the Terms. But it isn’t, so I’m not.
============
There’s plenty of open fields with little cover as seen in the films, especially in the T2 opening sequence.
=========
The Terms can use the buildings and sewers all they want.
=========
Which apparently none of the building can be the abandoned Skynet factories or facilities, which would be there in a Skynet controlled New York? Because those would be the only building post-Judgement day. Everything else would have been flattened by the nukes.
“There’s plenty of open fields with little cover as seen in the films, especially in the T2 opening sequence.”
===
True, but those areas won’t be the Xenos first choice to fight, in fact it will be their last.
===
“Which apparently none of the building can be the abandoned Skynet factories or facilities, which would be there in a Skynet controlled New York? Because those would be the only building post-Judgement day. Everything else would have been flattened by the nukes.”
===
I don’t know how we can put this any other way. You can’t assume supplies will be there if the match doesn’t specify. Seeing as how you are the only ones who thinks they will have ammo. When we put it to a vote, it won’t go your way.
“True, but those areas won’t be the Xenos first choice to fight, in fact it will be their last.”
=============
I agree the Xenos wouldn’t want to, but sewers don’t run everywhere. I’d think especially for Skynet facillaties.
==================
“Seeing as how you are the only ones who thinks they will have ammo.”
The terminators are going to have guns and ammo. This wasn’t made to be some huge melee with every terminator trying to fist fight 10 xenos no matter how much you try to set the match up this way.
I think this ammo thing needs to be another thing that needs to be settled by the Admin or X if he ever returns here.
===
“ You really are a fucking moron. A missile IS NOT FUCKING ALIVE. It is PROGRAMMED you dumb ass. Nothing you say brings any value to the debate. Same with the Xeno vs Pandora debate, you don’t read the comments, you make unnecessarily long posts about the stupidest shit, and you derail the thread like someone is paying you. The Xenos genetic memory is only active in a hive. Because all the members are connected through the Queen. When it is one Xeno, it is on it’s own. Learn before you speak. “
===
My, my, what language! You are falling back on abusing the first guideline of FP debates again instead of debating. That will not do your side any good at all now will it? Ad hominem attacks will get you exactly nowhere.
===
“ Well your “serious doubts” don’t mean shit. Find a quote and disprove it. Otherwise, fuck off. “
===
I am the one doubting your claim of genius on the part of xeno queens, not the one trying to make the claim so I do not need to prove anything.
===
“ Wrong, you still don’t get genetic memory. Every Xeno in the galaxy does not share the same memories, that is reserved for the members of Hives. And you compared a Xeno to a fucking missile idiot, they are ALIVE. They are referred to as machines because that is how effective they are. They are more like humans than a machine. Also, seeing as how the claims I made were backed up by actual proof, whatever you say doesn’t mean shit unless you have proof too. James Cameron even said those things I was quoting. “
===
I know how information trees work actually; I work in the IT field. I did not claim all the genetic memory would cross over to other xenos everywhere, try reading my posts before inanely howling about them.
-
As for the Cameron quote, what I said was not counter to what he said, I simply pointed out that it does not take a lot of human style intelligence to do what he described since the inherited memories are available which would provide a lot of pre-programmed responses to things. I did not even say they had no intelligence at all either, I pointed out that what they display in the movies is more of a very highly advanced animal cunning than classic human style intelligence.
-
I am not even going to bother quoting your foul mouthed rant about my comments on the acid blood. The reason I used the term ‘magic’ was to point out that the so called acid supposedly dissolves absolutely everything but xenos according to the fanboys, but there is no way for the acid to know what material is part of a xeno and what is not. In other words it would have to use information about the material it contacts that is not an intrinsic part of the material (is it a xeno or something else) and make a DECISION about whether to dissolve it or not. Chemicals do not make active decisions about metaphysical abstracts like “is this thing good or evil?”, “what is this things place in the universe?”, or even “will dissolving this thing help the xenomorph cause?” they only react chemically to other substances according to the molecular properties of those substances. They do not react in two different ways to the same substance according to abstracts like ‘is it US or is it THEM’. That “it dissolves EVERYTHING that is not part of a xeno just because it is not a xeno” nonsense is not how science works, therefore I sarcastically called it magic.
===
————-
“ …I still fail to see how the Terminators can win even with ammo. “
-
The xenos are a kind of one-trick pony, they always attack the same way by infecting hosts with facehuggers to get a foothold, setting up a hive to prepare for mass production of xeno units, and then rapidly produce those units using the opposing sides people as raw materials. It is a kind of vicious circle, the more victims they get the more numerous they are at the same time the defenders get weaker because of loosing ever increasing numbers of people so their ability to fight collapses. This continues until the defenders are completely wiped out and the fighting stops at which point the xenos go dormant until more victims arrive from somewhere else.
-
In this scenario that process has come to a halt before the xenos achieved victory because of a situation that their creators apparently never imagined: a significant number of the defenders are non-biological and therefore unusable to produce more xenos and the xenos have run out of biological enemies/raw materials. (The zombie plague would have made that worse as well). They are ill-equipped to handle this new phenomenon; their usual tactics do not make efficient use of fighters so they lose more of them than others like the Skynet forces that do make efficient use of them. The shoe is on the other foot and they are on the dwindling side for the first time in their experience (or at least the movies have not shown anything that indicates otherwise).
-
The terminators only have to kill ten xenos for every terminator lost in order to win. Some humans have achieved that kind of kill ratio or at least came close enough (though most are just hapless civilian victims), and the terminators are far more effective fighters than humans. It is not exactly a walkover but it is definitely in the achievable range.
“I agree the Xenos wouldn’t want to, but sewers don’t run everywhere. I’d think especially for Skynet facillaties.”
===
Not just the sewers. Subways run everywhere in New York.
===
“The terminators are going to have guns and ammo. This wasn’t made to be some huge melee with every terminator trying to fist fight 10 xenos no matter how much you try to set the match up this way.”
===
They will have their standard loadout and nothing else.
===
“Chemicals do not make active decisions about metaphysical abstracts like “is this thing good or evil?”, ”
===
Yet again, you are an idiot. Then by your logic, our stomachs are magic, teflon is magic. The chemical does not need to make active decisions, what it can react with on a chemical level is what decides this.
===
“I work in the IT field. ”
===
Then God help your customers.
===
Nothing you say is right, I’m not going to bother with you.
“Not just the sewers. Subways run everywhere in New York.”
=======
Subways can bring them close to some areas, but it’s not like subways run right into buildings basements. I agree sewers and subways can be useful to xenos, but there can still be big feilds to cover to get to terminators from the access points that the sewers and subways provide. Especially if 1) Terminators are set up on the edges of the city, and especially if they do it in abandoned Skynet buildings that were set up to be away from sewers and subways (as they wouldn’t want the resistance from using to get close.)
===============
They will have their standard loadout and nothing else.
============
What’s considered standard loadout for the T-series? The weapons change from movie to movie, and there is plenty of variety of weapons within each movie just for the future war sequences. Terminators in the future war never seemed to run out of ammo, or at least that situation wasn’t shown in the war sequences. They ‘Hollywood’ effect probably doesn’t help on figuring out just how much ammo they’d have for future plasma weapons. Does this mean standard loadout should be some composite phased plasma rifle that only runs out when it’d be ‘Hollywood’ appropriate? If at all?
==============
Maybe it needs to be another thing to explore, as X’s scenario (again) doesn’t seem to cover that subject very well, as it’s key to knowing how everything stands between the factions.
==========
Maybe what it would come down to is just what BC had said. Can the Terminators get above a 10:1 Kill to death ratio against the Xenos. If yes, Terms win, if no, Xenos. I figure right now that Terminators would average around 25-30 kills for every unit destroyed, which would be more than enough to achieve victory for the Terminators.
“They ‘Hollywood’ effect probably doesn’t help on figuring out just how much ammo they’d have for future plasma weapons. Does this mean standard loadout should be some composite phased plasma rifle that only runs out when it’d be ‘Hollywood’ appropriate? If at all?”
===
See, this is where I’m not sure. The Terms that use bullets will run out very quickly due to the Zeds. But do we know how long it takes for the plasma weapons to run out? I read that they can be powered for years which may as well give some of the Terms near infinite (if not infinite) ammo.
===
“They ‘Hollywood’ effect probably doesn’t help on figuring out just how much ammo they’d have for future plasma weapons. Does this mean standard loadout should be some composite phased plasma rifle that only runs out when it’d be ‘Hollywood’ appropriate? If at all?”
===
The Terms will be the one who actively seek out their targets. The Zeds will just stumble around getting straight merced. Then the Terms go looking for the Xenos. This is where the Xenos come into there element. Ambush and stealth. The hive webbing has already shown to mess with robotic sensors, if you don’t recall I posted a scan showing Bishop stating that he can’t tell how many because his sensors are all fucked up. I can re post it if you want. Let me do some research on Bishop’s sensors to see how they compare to the Terms.
The second quote should be this.
===
“Subways can bring them close to some areas, but it’s not like subways run right into buildings basements. I agree sewers and subways can be useful to xenos, but there can still be big feilds to cover to get to terminators from the access points that the sewers and subways provide. Especially if 1) Terminators are set up on the edges of the city, and especially if they do it in abandoned Skynet buildings that were set up to be away from sewers and subways (as they wouldn’t want the resistance from using to get close.)”
Well, this was all I could find right now.
===
“Subways can bring them close to some areas, but it’s not like subways run right into buildings basements. I agree sewers and subways can be useful to xenos, but there can still be big feilds to cover to get to terminators from the access points that the sewers and subways provide. Especially if 1) Terminators are set up on the edges of the city, and especially if they do it in abandoned Skynet buildings that were set up to be away from sewers and subways (as they wouldn’t want the resistance from using to get close.)”
===
alienanthology.wikia.com/wiki/Synthetic
Well, this was all I could find right now.
===
“The Synthetic’s mind is an integrated Carbon 60 processor with a processing speed of 1015 floating point operations per second. Memory capacity includes 1 terabyte of fast cache buffer RAM and 1.2 Terabyte of non-volatile memory. The system is constructed around a very powerful heuristic logic driver, making decisions based upon imported sensory data, information drawn from experience and the android’s vast inbuilt databases. Intuitive functions are derived from a suite of nested contextual and semantic programs linked by self-mapping loops of tangled hierarchies.”
===
alienanthology.wikia.com/wiki/Synthetic
“The Synthetic’s mind is an integrated Carbon 60 processor with a processing speed of 1015 floating point operations per second. Memory capacity includes 1 terabyte of fast cache buffer RAM and 1.2 Terabyte of non-volatile memory. The system is constructed around a very powerful heuristic logic driver, making decisions based upon imported sensory data, information drawn from experience and the android’s vast inbuilt databases. Intuitive functions are derived from a suite of nested contextual and semantic programs linked by self-mapping loops of tangled hierarchies.”
========
This is good info for synthetics, but 1) tells us nothing about the sensor equipment. The qoute mostly deals with the synthetic computing capacity, not what they are able to use for detection and 2) Bishop was never in the hive or anywhere near it in Aliens. I don’t recall the scan you are referencing, it’d be nice if you could repost, or post number for it.
=======
“The Terms will be the one who actively seek out their targets”
=======
A common tactic for Terminators has been to lure and draw out targets to themselves in the films.
In terminator salvation, the T-800 can’t find John Connor in the factory, so it mimics Kyle Reeses voice to draw Connor towards him. The T-1000 does the same thing at the end of the movie. It also tries to trap him by using Sarah as bait and bring him back to the T-1000.
The T-800 poses as her mother and tries to talk Sarah into coming to her moms house where the T-800 is waiting.
The T-1000 did the same thing, trying to pose as Johns foster mom and talk him into coming back home where the T-1000 was waiting.
I’ll post videos later if needed.
=======
Terminators have often used tactics that draw targets out of their hiding places. They will try to draw Xenos out into the open and maximize their ability to terminate them on their terms. They will weigh the risk/reward of each method and take the course of action with a much higher likelihood of success.
img373.imageshack.us/img373/6933/02141.jpg
===
Here is the scan I was talking about.
===
“This is good info for synthetics, but 1) tells us nothing about the sensor equipment. The qoute mostly deals with the synthetic computing capacity, not what they are able to use for detection and 2) Bishop was never in the hive or anywhere near it in Aliens. I don’t recall the scan you are referencing, it’d be nice if you could repost, or post number for it.”
===
True, but maybe it can give us an idea of what kind of technology Bishop uses so maybe we can compare it to the Terms.
===
“In terminator salvation, the T-800 can’t find John Connor in the factory, so it mimics Kyle Reeses voice to draw Connor towards him. The T-1000 does the same thing at the end of the movie. It also tries to trap him by using Sarah as bait and bring him back to the T-1000.
The T-800 poses as her mother and tries to talk Sarah into coming to her moms house where the T-800 is waiting.
The T-1000 did the same thing, trying to pose as Johns foster mom and talk him into coming back home where the T-1000 was waiting.
I’ll post videos later if needed.”
===
That’s right, I forgot about those tactics. But remember, Xenos cannot be lured like that. It’s not like they have mothers or loved ones to mimic. The Queen’s word is the highest authority to the Xenos. And if the Terms are close enough to lure the Xenos, then they are too close.
===
Thank you for the scan. Do you happen to know what comic series that’s from? It’s weirding me out with them all using the same names as the people from Aliens, and going directly against what happened in the film with those characters, and not even having remotely the same character design. It also doesn’t really describe what his internal sensors consist of, and why the Alien environment is interfering with it. Heat, moisture, EM interference if it’s taking place at the Thermonuclear Terra-forming plant (which would be a byproduct of the plant, and not the xenos) Lots of unknowns still not dealt with in narration. Very vague.
============
True, but maybe it can give us an idea of what kind of technology Bishop uses so maybe we can compare it to the Terms.
===========
I agree. It’d be helpful to know more about the synthetics for comparison, however, overall the Terminator feats are more important here.
===============
“That’s right, I forgot about those tactics. But remember, Xenos cannot be lured like that. It’s not like they have mothers or loved ones to mimic. The Queen’s word is the highest authority to the Xenos. And if the Terms are close enough to lure the Xenos, then they are too close.”
==========
In Aliens, Xenos reacted to a chestburster being burned, it’s death cry, ect. Xenos still care about their offspring like any animal. The Queen and the warriors were greatly concerned when the eggs were threatened in Aliens. If Terminators are able to emulate Xeno crys or other acoustics from them and broadcast them, they could cause Xenos to investiage. Or use zombies and herd them up as bait, use a trap like that. Or ignoring Zeds because Aliens/Terms have killed them all already, Even have a Terminator do what it does best. impersonate a human as a bait, which the Xenos would want to use for reproduction as Zombies wouldn’t be able to provide that. The Terminators have several means to set traps and lure Xenos out to the open.
============
And these tactics could all led to Xenos come investigate, out in the open. It could even be worse, if they have a T-850 pose as a human, get it surrounded by Xenos, and then blast the T-850 through the chest to cause the hydrogen fuel cells to explode, or rig a T-850 to do such a thing that’d be effective too. 1 lost T-850, but tens, if not hundreds of xenos lost in that exchange.
“In Aliens, Xenos reacted to a chestburster being burned, it’s death cry, ect. Xenos still care about their offspring like any animal. The Queen and the warriors were greatly concerned when the eggs were threatened in Aliens. If Terminators are able to emulate Xeno crys or other acoustics from them and broadcast them, they could cause Xenos to investiage. Or use zombies and herd them up as bait, use a trap like that. Or ignoring Zeds because Aliens/Terms have killed them all already, Even have a Terminator do what it does best. impersonate a human as a bait, which the Xenos would want to use for reproduction as Zombies wouldn’t be able to provide that. The Terminators have several means to set traps and lure Xenos out to the open.”
===
But they have no offspring here. And seeing as how they have no problem shredding one of their own to escape, it’s safe to say that they won’t risk the Hive for one “injured” Xeno. And the sound of a single human still wouldn’t be enough to lure Xenos out. And they would first need to find the Xenos to do this, and then they would have to get awfully close. Also, Xenos have never shown to be attracted to human voices.
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” or rig a T-850 to do such a thing that’d be effective too. 1 lost T-850, but tens, if not hundreds of xenos lost in that exchange.”
===
Well now that is just pure guess work, unless I missed something. Have the Terms ever shown the ability to do this?
And no, I don’t know what comic that is from. I do know that the Bishop they used was also an action figure. I THINK it’s Alien 3, I read something about Bishop searching for Xenos in that comic. I’m probably wrong.
“And they would first need to find the Xenos to do this, and then they would have to get awfully close.”
==========
Finding the xeno using far range recon I don’t think would be a huge task with either binoculars or just the T-800 vision (15x snap magnifcation). They could locate and ID hives and xeno controlled areas and be miles away observing them. Especially if they use high ground to see further out.
In fact, they could ID a hive, snipe a few Xenos and return to a base, or a line of defense and see if the Xenos follow, and if so, utilize trench warfare tactics.
==========
Have the Terms ever shown the ability to do this?
====
The T-X was able to overtake the T-850s systems and have it carry out programs that were against it’s primary mission using it’s nanoinjector. It resisted, but almost failed anyway before initiating an emergency shutdown. However, they’d be on the same side in this match, so the T-X could use it just to override the T-850s inability to self-terminate.
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Also, the T-850 in T3 demonstrated it’s fuel cells use as a weapon in the end of the movie. The T-850 has 2 cells (for reduncancy), and could use one as a weapon and the other as it’s power source.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vCLeV7PfJs&feature=player_detailpage#t=147s
=========
“Also, Xenos have never shown to be attracted to human voices.”
===
I think that’s interesting, as I can’t remember if it was you or Redrum earlier that claimed they understood human language (specifically english)
But moving on, to these below:
“Get away from her you bitch”
Queen seemed attracted to that.
The Alien in the first movie came towards Ripley in the suit while she was singing at the very end before she blew it out the air lock.
The facehugger in Aliens seemed to come towards the sound of Newt’s voice.
The Aliens also seemed to react towards the Predator grunts and growls in the AVP movies.
I think sounds might be one of the ways they navigate their environment and hunt so well without the use of any eyes, especially in light of these examples.
================
“Finding the xeno using far range recon I don’t think would be a huge task with either binoculars or just the T-800 vision (15x snap magnifcation). They could locate and ID hives and xeno controlled areas and be miles away observing them. Especially if they use high ground to see further out.
In fact, they could ID a hive, snipe a few Xenos and return to a base, or a line of defense and see if the Xenos follow, and if so, utilize trench warfare tactics.”
===
Unless they can see through dozens of feet of concrete to spot the Hives through the ground, this won’t work.
===
“The T-X was able to overtake the T-850s systems and have it carry out programs that were against it’s primary mission using it’s nanoinjector. It resisted, but almost failed anyway before initiating an emergency shutdown. However, they’d be on the same side in this match, so the T-X could use it just to override the T-850s inability to self-terminate.”
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Then why didn’t the TX do that in the beginning? Being on the same side won’t change the fact that the T-850 was still able to override the TX hacking into it’s system.
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“Also, the T-850 in T3 demonstrated it’s fuel cells use as a weapon in the end of the movie. The T-850 has 2 cells (for reduncancy), and could use one as a weapon and the other as it’s power source.”
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Last ditch effort to protect John Connor.
===
“I think that’s interesting, as I can’t remember if it was you or Redrum earlier that claimed they understood human language (specifically english)
But moving on, to these below:
“Get away from her you bitch”
Queen seemed attracted to that.
The Alien in the first movie came towards Ripley in the suit while she was singing at the very end before she blew it out the air lock.
The facehugger in Aliens seemed to come towards the sound of Newt’s voice.
The Aliens also seemed to react towards the Predator grunts and growls in the AVP movies.
I think sounds might be one of the ways they navigate their environment and hunt so well without the use of any eyes, especially in light of these examples.”
===
None of these examples show a Hive controlled Xeno being lured by voices. If it was just one Xeno that was only trying to kill and not preserve the Hive, then you would be correct.
Unless they can see through dozens of feet of concrete to spot the Hives through the ground, this won’t work.
=====
Or if they keep track of Xeno movements from a distance, especially if Xenos go out to capture/eat Zeds and expand to other hives. And not all building will be like the Terra-forming plant in Aliens. Not all buildings have basements. If they take over an abandoned building and make it into a hive, the presense of Xenos might be very apparent, especially if the entrances and exits have visible signs of resin build up.
=====
But it’s fine. Even they are underground, and no xeno, ever, ever leaves the hives, they could send in a single T-850, have it verify a location if it’s xeno controlled or not, and then start shooting up Xenos, get swarmed, and detonate the fuel cell and destroy the hive. 1 hive for 1 T-850, a logical trade for Terminators.
=====
“Then why didn’t the TX do that in the beginning?”
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Because it hadn’t gotten the T-850 into a position where it could do that.
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Being on the same side won’t change the fact that the T-850 was still able to override the TX hacking into it’s system.
=====
Yes it will. The reason it resisted was because there were conflicting orders and prime mission goals. The T-850s mission was to keep John Connor alive. The T-X was trying to get the T-X to kill him. That’s where that conflict came from. If both are ‘Kill the Xenos’ there is no conflict then. And it’d be less of a hack, and more of the T-850s allowing itself to be modified by the T-Xs.
=========
Last ditch effort to protect John Connor.
=====
Which was it’s goal, it’s primary mission, to protect John Connor. Now the mission is to kill all Xenos. A good nuke in the middle of a hive would do the trick.
===========
None of these examples show a Hive controlled Xeno being lured by voices
=================
Do Facehuggers from Aliens (the only movie with a large well populated hive) not count as Xenos?
And the Xenos in the AVP movies had a Queen they obeyed and together formed a little hive in the Antarctic.
correction, Xenos in the first AVP movie, not the second.
“Or if they keep track of Xeno movements from a distance, especially if Xenos go out to capture/eat Zeds and expand to other hives. And not all building will be like the Terra-forming plant in Aliens. Not all buildings have basements. If they take over an abandoned building and make it into a hive, the presense of Xenos might be very apparent, especially if the entrances and exits have visible signs of resin build up.”
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Xenos will not go try and capture the Zeds. In the second movie (I might be wrong about which movie) the facehuggers passed right by a dead body when it realized it was dead, since the host must be alive. And FP rules state that each side has a basic knowledge of the other sides. So the Terms and Xenos will know the Zeds are dead….baby. Plus, underground environments will be the Xenos first choice. And seeing as how there is an abundance of room in the subways and sewers, the Xenos won’t need to use the building as hives.
===
“Or if they keep track of Xeno movements from a distance, especially if Xenos go out to capture/eat Zeds and expand to other hives. And not all building will be like the Terra-forming plant in Aliens. Not all buildings have basements. If they take over an abandoned building and make it into a hive, the presense of Xenos might be very apparent, especially if the entrances and exits have visible signs of resin build up.”
===
Then why didn’t Skynet send an infiltrator to self destruct inside the rebel bases if it was that easy?
===
“Because it hadn’t gotten the T-850 into a position where it could do that.”
===
Wait…are you telling me that the Terminator terminator couldn’t get a Terminator in a position where it could terminate said Terminator? Even though the Terminator terminator was superior in every way to the Terminator it was sent to terminate? Huh, and I thought the T-X was a badass.
===
“Yes it will. The reason it resisted was because there were conflicting orders and prime mission goals. The T-850s mission was to keep John Connor alive. The T-X was trying to get the T-X to kill him. That’s where that conflict came from. If both are ‘Kill the Xenos’ there is no conflict then. And it’d be less of a hack, and more of the T-850s allowing itself to be modified by the T-Xs.”
===
They are on the same side, there wouldn’t be a need to override a machine with the same mission as you. That’s like me torturing someone to do something for me that they were already gonna do.
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“Do Facehuggers from Aliens (the only movie with a large well populated hive) not count as Xenos?”
===
Yes they do. But their only job in life is to find hosts, so naturally they would be lured to the sound of a potential host. And since there are none of those in this match, it doesn’t matter.
===
“And the Xenos in the AVP movies had a Queen they obeyed and together formed a little hive in the Antarctic.”
===
You also have to remember that the only reason we are using AvP is because the original scenario had Predaliens. AvP is not canon and it made the Xenos into mindless idiots. Remember when the Predator had two Xenos by the necks and they just flailed around like rag dolls? You look me dead in my eyeballs and tell me with a straight face that a Xeno would not simply spear the Predator through the chest with it’s tail…Go ahead and try. Hell, you can even see their tails swinging around, so we know they were not held down or otherwise rendered useless. And since we are throwing the original scenario out, we don’t know whether we need to use AvP as canon until we decide on a final scenario. But you make a good point. I haven’t seen AvP in a while so if you could provide something for me to go on regarding your claim, it would really help.
FUCK. The second quote should be this. I keep messing up copy and paste.
===
“But it’s fine. Even they are underground, and no xeno, ever, ever leaves the hives, they could send in a single T-850, have it verify a location if it’s xeno controlled or not, and then start shooting up Xenos, get swarmed, and detonate the fuel cell and destroy the hive. 1 hive for 1 T-850, a logical trade for Terminators.”
Sorry, I was confusing the first AvP to the second. The “hive” in the first one was hardly a hive. There were less than 10 Xenos (right?) and the Queen was in chains.
“Then why didn’t Skynet send an infiltrator to self destruct inside the rebel bases if it was that easy?”
======
Only T-850 really seen was in Terminator 3, and it was captured before it could self detonate apparently. Plot induced stupidity might also be a key factor in that. Can’t kill off the main character of your story because Hollywood.
====
The other infiltrator Terminators were the T-800 series, which don’t have the same hydrogen fuel cells that the T-850 does. That was an upgrade from the T-800 to the T-850 series. The Terminator from Salvation was a prototype, so changes may have been made to the T-800 series between 2018 when that movie takes place and 2029 when the first two Terminator movies happen, and where those T-800s come from.
====
“Wait…are you telling me that the Terminator terminator couldn’t get a Terminator in a position where it could terminate said Terminator? Even though the Terminator terminator was superior in every way to the Terminator it was sent to terminate? Huh, and I thought the T-X was a badass.”
=========
I didn’t say it never happened. You asked why it didn’t happen in the beginning. Because the T-Xs first move was to put a plasma bolt in it’s chest, which it thought killed the T-850. It damaged it’s power cell, leaving it on it’s backup. Then, they spend the rest of the movie running, until the showdown towards then end, where the T-X did take the T-850 over and then that scene above happened.
=====
Yes they do. But their only job in life is to find hosts, so naturally they would be lured to the sound of a potential host. And since there are none of those in this match, it doesn’t matter.
=====
But if the Terminators mimic potential hosts, they can attract and draw out some facehuggers, which can be used to reveal the location of their hives that way.
=========
They are on the same side, there wouldn’t be a need to override a machine with the same mission as you.
======
Skynet is not present to make massive changes to the programming of the T-850, specifically, any programming which might interfere (like self-preservation) with utilizing T-850s as suicide bombers. They both are ordered to kill Xenos, but the T-X can be useful in altering the T-800/T-850 programming and subroutines if needed. That’s what I’m saying, because it’s being used as a Skynet substitute in it’s absence to alter or upgrade software and programs.
=========
In T2, it’s stated that Skynet puts the Terminator CPUs to read only when they are sent out alone so they don’t ‘think too much’ If this happens because of Skynets absence in this match, the T-X can make those changes, changing the CPUs to read and write much, much quicker than it’d be to actually take a T-800 offline, open up the port and flip the pin switch to read/write. Just a quick poke from the T-X and you’re good to go a few seconds later.
============
Remember when the Predator had two Xenos by the necks and they just flailed around like rag dolls?
=====
Yeah, I didn’t care too much for that scene either, or for the AVP movies in general.
“Only T-850 really seen was in Terminator 3, and it was captured before it could self detonate apparently. Plot induced stupidity might also be a key factor in that. Can’t kill off the main character of your story because Hollywood.”
===
Ahhh, the same can be said for the T-850 self destructing in the first place. That was the only instance where a Term blew itself to shit. But if you wanna make a previously evil character who turned good go out with a bang (ha) and you also want to give that character human traits and a sense of emotion, you have him sacrifice himself. Why? Because Hollywood.
===
“I didn’t say it never happened. You asked why it didn’t happen in the beginning. Because the T-Xs first move was to put a plasma bolt in it’s chest, which it thought killed the T-850. It damaged it’s power cell, leaving it on it’s backup. Then, they spend the rest of the movie running, until the showdown towards then end, where the T-X did take the T-850 over and then that scene above happened.”
===
Hold the phone…are you telling me that a super advanced Terminator terminator with (according to you) super badass sensors and vision modes and scanners couldn’t tell whether it terminated the Terminator it was sent to terminate? Or maybe you’re telling me that the super badass Terminator terminator is a lazy bitch and didn’t bother to check if she terminated the Terminator she was supposed to terminate……Terminator?
===
“But if the Terminators mimic potential hosts, they can attract and draw out some facehuggers, which can be used to reveal the location of their hives that way.”
===
Like I said before, why would you put fuggers in a match with no hosts? Pointless.
===
“Skynet is not present to make massive changes to the programming of the T-850, specifically, any programming which might interfere (like self-preservation) with utilizing T-850s as suicide bombers. They both are ordered to kill Xenos, but the T-X can be useful in altering the T-800/T-850 programming and subroutines if needed. That’s what I’m saying, because it’s being used as a Skynet substitute in it’s absence to alter or upgrade software and programs.”
===
Your whole suicide bomber theory is completely out of character for the Terms and Skynet. Skynet already has suicide bombers (those little bug looking fuckers), why would they waste resources making a combat ready robot only to have it blow itself to shit? Why put the vast array of technology and weapons on the things when they can just put tank tracks, the fuel cell, some armor, and a detonator and send thousands of them out to blow up the resistance? It is out of character and therefore not a valid argument. Also, the T-X is not a commanding unit. I believe that position belongs to the Centurions, they are explicitly stated to serve as the leaders. The T-X was made to take out rogue Terms, not to rally up 50,000.
===
“Yeah, I didn’t care too much for that scene either, or for the AVP movies in general.”
===
I liked them purely for their entertainment value. I just liked seeing Pred and Xenos fighting and the idea of the Predalien was cool.
You know when you focus on a word long enough how you start to second guess how it’s spelled? Yeah, that’s how I feel about the word “Terminator.”
“blew itself to shit.”
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NKqhqIN3Zc
From 1:30 to 1:52 the T-850′s skull is clearly shown, when the last time it was seen, it was right in front of the blast. Also, it’s eyebeams are also still on, but they eventually go out as the remaining power in the T-850 runs out.
“whether it terminated the Terminator it was sent to terminate? Or maybe you’re telling me that the super badass Terminator terminator is a lazy bitch and didn’t bother to check if she terminated the Terminator she was supposed to terminate”
The T-X’s main priority was to terminate John Connor and Katherine Brewster, among other key people that would benefit The Resistance in the future.
“From 1:30 to 1:52 the T-850′s skull is clearly shown, when the last time it was seen, it was right in front of the blast. Also, it’s eyebeams are also still on, but they eventually go out as the remaining power in the T-850 runs out.”
===
What does this have to do with anything?
===
“The T-X’s main priority was to terminate John Connor and Katherine Brewster, among other key people that would benefit The Resistance in the future.”
===
You’re right, but her speciality was Terminating terminators.
Hold the phone…are you telling me that a super advanced Terminator terminator with (according to you) super badass sensors and vision modes and scanners couldn’t tell whether it terminated the Terminator it was sent to terminate?
====
Remember, it’s mission there wasn’t to destroy the T-850, it was to kill John Connor. It was put down, and disabled and needed to be rebooted. And the T-X needed to get back to killing John Connor. The T-X was just getting rid of a annoying distraction, violently.
============
And PIS. Those plasma shots were apparently be able to one shot T-1000s from what I’ve been told. How the T-850 survived something that strong, no idea. It was pretty badly hurt from it though. Needed to effectively cut out what was damaged or it’d have died from that explosion.
===
media.photobucket.com/image/recent/SupremeKai/T-XvsT-1000.jpg
=========
Apparently the plasma round disables all the nanomachines so the T-1000 can’t reform.
Personally, I always found the T-1000 to be much more of a dangerous thing than the T-X, but it is what it is apparently.
==============
If you have Queens, they are going to make eggs and run the hive like they always do. If you make eggs, they will give birth to Facehuggers. If there is the indication there is someone to facehug, they will try to reproduce.
======
Your whole suicide bomber theory is completely out of character for the Terms and Skynet
========
It would be if the T-850 didn’t suicide bomb and do just that in the 3rd movie. It suicide bombed the T-X.
=============
Why put the vast array of technology and weapons on the things when they can just put tank tracks, the fuel cell, some armor, and a detonator and send thousands of them out to blow up the resistance?
=========
Because they didn’t know where the Resistance was hiding, where they were making bases. That’s why they made infiltrators in the first place. And I’m not saying all Terminators would do this. The only class to do this was the T-850 from the 3rd movie, and that’s the only one I’d even suggest could pull it off. The T-X, T-1000, T-800s, nope. Can’t suicide bomb. T-850 would be the only series capable of it, as shown in T3.
=================
Also, the T-X is not a commanding unit
============
It’s able to take control of other machines and deliver orders to them. If it was only to destroy rouge units, it wouldn’t need that nanoinjector to take over machines. It’s able to control and command, and that’d make it a unit capable of commanding. It has the abilities to do so, like it did with the police cars, or the T-1s in T3.
=================
Also, the Centurion was just a thing on concept art for T2, and was just in the comics I think, but I don’t think it was a commanding unit. It was just like, a smaller, lighter and more mobile HK-Tank, meant to do more direct hunting down of humans instead of the search and destroy the Ground HK Tanks did.
=========
“I liked them purely for their entertainment value. I just liked seeing Pred and Xenos fighting and the idea of the Predalien was cool.”
=======
It was pretty cool to finally see those things on screen. =D
You’re right, but her speciality was Terminating terminators.
==============
Yeah, but she’s not going to focus on one rouge Terminator anymore than the T-X needs to when it has John Connor right in it’s sights. It’s got bigger fish to fry, and doesn’t want to waste anymore time dealing with the T-850.
“What does this have to do with anything?”
That was right next to the hydrogen fuel cell. Everything else is ashes. And, the skull is still intact, and the eyebeams still work. The power eventually runs out, but, it wasn’t blown apart.
“Or maybe you’re telling me that the super badass Terminator terminator is a lazy bitch and didn’t bother to check if she terminated the Terminator she was supposed to terminate”
It’s very purpose for being there was the termination of mainly John, Kate, and other people that would benefit the Resistance. Not Terminating a Terminator. She actually assists, and makes sure of Skynet’s rise.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5bqmsRRlyg&feature=channel&list=UL
10:35 to 10:45.
Also, cool little thing I found. This is from a video game, but apparently this was how the T-850 was captured. Just for kicks.
==========
“Remember, it’s mission there wasn’t to destroy the T-850, it was to kill John Connor. It was put down, and disabled and needed to be rebooted. And the T-X needed to get back to killing John Connor. The T-X was just getting rid of a annoying distraction, violently.”
===
Refer to my comment to Rorschach.
===
“And PIS. Those plasma shots were apparently be able to one shot T-1000s from what I’ve been told. How the T-850 survived something that strong, no idea. It was pretty badly hurt from it though. Needed to effectively cut out what was damaged or it’d have died from that explosion.”
===
I find it rather unfair that you claim PIS for anything the disputes your claims. But I do agreaa that the T-1000 is more deadly.
===
“If you have Queens, they are going to make eggs and run the hive like they always do. If you make eggs, they will give birth to Facehuggers. If there is the indication there is someone to facehug, they will try to reproduce.”
===
Uh. No. The Xenos know there are no suitable host. It’s in the rules. The Queen can also detach from her ovipositor. Stop trying to reduce the number of effective Xenos by putting in useless units.
===
“It would be if the T-850 didn’t suicide bomb and do just that in the 3rd movie. It suicide bombed the T-X.”
===
PIS. You can’t claim PIS at your leisure, so I’ll show you how annoying it is. Plus he didn’t really self destruct. He didn’t hit a button that blew him up. Which also brings up this issue. How will the Terms overload there own fuel cells? The only time the fuel cells have ever blown up were when they were hit by plasma. Unless you can prove that they have the ability to manually overheat their fuel cells your argument just got shot down.
===
“Because they didn’t know where the Resistance was hiding, where they were making bases. That’s why they made infiltrators in the first place. And I’m not saying all Terminators would do this. The only class to do this was the T-850 from the 3rd movie, and that’s the only one I’d even suggest could pull it off. The T-X, T-1000, T-800s, nope. Can’t suicide bomb. T-850 would be the only series capable of it, as shown in T3.”
===
Wait….or you telling me that Terminators with (according to you) badass sensors and scanners and (according to you) the capability to locate shit with ease, could not locate a rag tag bunch of humans who A. Give off heat, so can be seen by thermal vision, B. Have many machines in their bases that also give off heat,.C. Have no form of camouflage on their body and D. Are not notorious for stealth? But at the same time you expect me to believe that they will have no problem finding the Xenos who A. Do not give off heat, B. Do not use any machines, C. Are undetectable by motion, heat and any other type of vison modes (that we have seen) when they are perfectly still, and D. Are masters of stealth? How can you sit there and say that with a straight face?
===
“It’s able to take control of other machines and deliver orders to them. If it was only to destroy rouge units, it wouldn’t need that nanoinjector to take over machines. It’s able to control and command, and that’d make it a unit capable of commanding. It has the abilities to do so, like it did with the police cars, or the T-1s in T3.”
===
Except it has only ever shown to be able to fully control a police car and shit like that. The T-850 was able to fight back.
===
“Also, the Centurion was just a thing on concept art for T2, and was just in the comics I think, but I don’t think it was a commanding unit. It was just like, a smaller, lighter and more mobile HK-Tank, meant to do more direct hunting down of humans instead of the search and destroy the Ground HK Tanks did.”
===
Yet again…Uh, no. The Centurion is the LARGEST Hunter Killer ground unit. So that’s strike one. And it was meant to be anti vehicular in addition to hunting humans. Strike two. And the M453 (Centurion) was able to control A4 aerial units, M250 heavy assault units, and T-600s and 800s. It was also give a Series 1200 scout. Strike three…YOU’RRRRRRREEEEEE OUT!!!!
===
It’s all right here in this pamphlet.
—
terminator.wikia.com/wiki/HK-Centurion
===
Nice try though my friend. I rather enjoy this back and forth.
“Wait….or you telling me that Terminators with (according to you) badass sensors and scanners and (according to you) the capability to locate shit with ease, could not locate a rag tag bunch of humans who A. Give off heat, so can be seen by thermal vision, B. Have many machines in their bases that also give off heat,.C. Have no form of camouflage on their body and D. Are not notorious for stealth?”
Skynet is “destined” to lose. That’s why they keep screwing with time, hoping to change the eventual outcome.
“Yeah, but she’s not going to focus on one rouge Terminator anymore than the T-X needs to when it has John Connor right in it’s sights. It’s got bigger fish to fry, and doesn’t want to waste anymore time dealing with the T-850.”
===
I understand what her mission was. But the T-850 confirmed when Connor said ”So it’s a Terminator….terminator?” Regardless of her mission she wasn’t a very good Terminator terminator if she couldn’t terminate a Terminator.
===
“That was right next to the hydrogen fuel cell. Everything else is ashes. And, the skull is still intact, and the eyebeams still work. The power eventually runs out, but, it wasn’t blown apart.”
===
Are you really nitpicking this? The phrase “blown to shit” is just a phrase, it is not quantifiable and THAT is what you choose to argue about? I never said it was turned to dust, I never said it was disintegrated, I said “blown to shit” and that’s what it was. Don’t waste my time. If you’re going to debate, then debate. Otherwise leave.
===
“It’s very purpose for being there was the termination of mainly John, Kate, and other people that would benefit the Resistance. Not Terminating a Terminator. She actually assists, and makes sure of Skynet’s rise.”
===
Duh. But John and Kate by themselves are no threat to the T-X. The only thing (literally) in the movie that was a threat was the T-850, it’s only logical to eliminate the only thing standing in your way from your objective first. And from what we have seen in the films, logic is the key in the Terminator thought process.
“Skynet is “destined” to lose. That’s why they keep screwing with time, hoping to change the eventual outcome.”
===
Seriously, your excuses are offensively pathetic. You basically just tried to negate EVERY failure Skynet has made by saying it is “destined” to lose. Why not just cut to the point and say it like a man. “Whatever flaws Skynet has don’t matter because it is destined to lose, but the Terms still pwn the Xenos LOL!.” Okay, since this is Skynet era New York, they lose automatically since their ENTIRE force is “destined” to lose to a bunch of ill-equipped militia, they obviously lose when a fraction of their numbers go up against a force of perfect killing machines that out number them 10 to 1. Stop posting Rorscach, you are only hurting your side. Go to sleep.
“The phrase “blown to shit” is just a phrase”
I know it’s just a phrase, and I wasn’t trying to nitpick. What I’m getting at is that the skull was still intact! After that explosion turned damn near everything else in that hangar to ashes.
“Seriously, your excuses are offensively pathetic.”
Excuses? Skynet first sent back a Terminator in the First Terminator to kill the father of John Connor, so the Resistance wouldn’t have a leader. The Second Terminator, send back another Terminator to terminate him as a boy. See if that works. The Third Terminator. Send back another one to terminate him, his girlfriend, and other key people in the Resistance. The Fourth Terminator, Skynet’s first priority was to kill Kyle Reese before he would be sent back to get Sarah pregnant with John. Also, Marcus was made to have John lured into the perfect place to have him killed, by the newest Terminator at the time.
*mother of John Connor, so she couldn’t give birth to him, and the Resistance wouldn’t have a leader.
“I know it’s just a phrase, and I wasn’t trying to nitpick. What I’m getting at is that the skull was still intact! After that explosion turned damn near everything else in that hangar to ashes.”
===
Okay then. Explain how a simple industrial compressor is stronger than a nuclear blast.
===
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXUUtLv4sCg
—
from 1:25 we can see the skull being crushed.
“Excuses? Skynet first sent back a Terminator in the First Terminator to kill the father of John Connor, so the Resistance wouldn’t have a leader. The Second Terminator, send back another Terminator to terminate him as a boy. See if that works. The Third Terminator. Send back another one to terminate him, his girlfriend, and other key people in the Resistance. The Fourth Terminator, Skynet’s first priority was to kill Kyle Reese before he would be sent back to get Sarah pregnant with John. Also, Marcus was made to have John lured into the perfect place to have him killed, by the newest Terminator at the time.”
===
I don’t need you to recite the plots of the movies. And yes, your “Skynet is destined to fail” is a pathetic excuse for why Skynet couldn’t locate the resistance. Despite you and your fellow supporters claiming that they will have no trouble finding the Xenos when they are infinitely less detectable.
“Refer to my comment to Rorschach.”
====
Post 566 for my response.
====
“The Centurion is the LARGEST Hunter Killer ground unit. ”
===
No. It’s the largest hunter killer, walker type ground unit. Walker type, not treads like the HK-Tank.
=====
images.wikia.com/terminator/images/b/b9/T2-art-concepting-094.jpg
====
images.wikia.com/terminator/images/b/bd/T2-art-storyboard-045.jpg
===
Compare it’s size to a human, and then a human compared to a HK tank.
=====
images.wikia.com/terminator/images/8/8e/In_to_the_robot_store.jpg
====
images.wikia.com/terminator/images/6/6b/Terminatorsalvation_2.jpg
====
Now tell me a Centurion is bigger than the HK-tank.
====
I agree with your other two points. However, I’d like to point out that the T-X is also capable of controlling those units as well if it is able to use the nanoinjector on them.
=======
Quote :”In a matter of milliseconds a T-X can connect with the electronic system and reprogram it, controlling it by direct link or ultra-high frequency contact via a downlink with military communications satellites under Skynet’s control. In this way, a T-X can take control of any machine (at least four at once, using its heads up display), including such things as electronic locks, automobiles or even other battle units.”
=====
“And I never said that that it exclusively hunted humans. I never said it couldn’t do anti-vehicular attacks. Don’t put words in my mouth and then act all bad with it.
How will the Terms overload there own fuel cells? The only time the fuel cells have ever blown up were when they were hit by plasma. Unless you can prove that they have the ability to manually overheat their fuel cells your argument just got shot down”
=====
The T-850s seem to just get explosive after being removed from the chest. He didn’t hit a button, he had the power cell housing come forward for extraction, he pulled the power cell out. The T-850 hadn’t been hit by plasma in that scene. He just pulled it out, put it in the T-Xs mouth, and BAM, it’s nuke time.
======
A. Give off heat, so can be seen by thermal vision, B. Have many machines in their bases that also give off heat,.C. Have no form of camouflage on their body and D. Are not notorious for stealth?
=====
A and B) Hiding underground, and using cover. Plus, do not need to come out of cover to attack. A lot of the attacks they did were planting bombs and mines for the machines to run over and explode.
C)They did have camo. The uniforms were grey and matched the ash-colored battlefield. However, it didn’t help if they were spotted, as they were destroyed instantly the second they were seen.
D) In fact, humans are some of the stealthiest creatures on the planet. Ever seen how a sniper can wait in plain sight and never be seen? What do Navy Seals, Spec op units, secret agents, various assassins and Ninjas have in common? All masters of stealth, and all are human. Humans have written the books on how to be stealthy.
====
A. Do not give off heat, B. Do not use any machines, C. Are undetectable by motion, heat and any other type of vison modes (that we have seen) when they are perfectly still, and D. Are masters of stealth?
=====
A) Terminators do not strictly use infared to see. They are capable of simple enchanced sight and night vision by amplifying the ambient light. You can see Aliens. They are visible. These aren’t predators. And they are black, they will stand out against a grey background.
B) Not using machines and tools would be a disadvantage. Not using them doesn’t allow you to do anything outside whatever you are naturally capable of.
C) Xenos have to come out of hiding and thus move, being detected as soon as it happens, and shot as they are detected. And they can be seen by plain sight. They just don’t show up on infared. All the other vision modes will still work, because they aren’t based on body heat.
D) They are masters of stealth when they are in their environment, when they are in the hive. They stand out pretty good against various backgrounds. Terminators are not going to send all 50,000 units into the Hive just because that’d be what humans in a horror movie setting would do.
=========
You can’t claim PIS at your leisure
====
I’m not. Take this, how did hundreds of Xenos, for weeks, be unable to catch just one little girl, with no weapons, and no training. That’s just not realistic. How did a single unarmed woman take out a Xeno, not once, but twice? How did same women, stroll all the way right up thru the hive, right up to the Queen, blow up the hive, not get a drop of acid blood on her, take a hostage out, and then escape while surrounded by dozens of xenos?
Why didn’t the Queen cause a ruckus on the drop ship and crash it on the way to the Sulaco?
Why didn’t the Queen slash the fleshy part of Ripley in the powerloader, which isn’t very armored at all, instead getting it’s head stuck in the arms all the time, especially if the Xenos are as smart as you say?
I enjoy this banter too. It’s too bad these always take so long to write.
Skynet was destined to lose. I already posted exactly how on the first page but I’ll post it again for all to see.
-
“Skynet lost because Skynet killed itself. The whole underlying basis of the Terminator series is Fate and it was Skynet’s fate to lose. Skynet lost to the humans so it sent a Terminator back in time to kill the mother of the Resistance leader who rallied all the humans together and showed them how to defeat Skynet. In response John Connor sent back Kyle Reese. This is the event that caused John Connor to be born in the first place. This is further complicated by the fact that if Skynet would have never sent the T-101 back Sara Connor would have never went to Mexico where she learned guerrilla and terrorist tactics which she then imparted to her son nor would she would have taken the picture of her that John would later give to Kyle Reese which would give him the head start he needed in finding Sarah Connor before the T-101. Them sending back the next T-1000 caused the resistance to respond by sending back the T-800. In doing this caused Skynet to inadvertently give John Connor the means to break his mother out of the mental institution she was in and causing her to gain knowledge of who the man who was to create Skynet, Miles Dyson, which caused her to try and assassinate him. This caused him to join her in destroying the last parts of the original T-101 and getting himself killed prolonging Judgement Day from 1997 to 2004 giving John Connor ample time to learn advance computer programming and science skills which he later used to help write the virus used to crash Skynet’s defenses and give the Resistance the victory. Like the T-850 said Judgment Day was inevitable but so was Skynet’s down fall. It was destined to lose aka the purest form of PIS since it could have just re-nuked the planet because everything it needed was located underground. That is not the case here.”
-
The plot of the Terminator series was one of Cameron’s better writings because it was complicated yet simple if one paid attention. But I digress because being destined to lose does not make up for its short comings.
Most of the time, villians, such as Skynet and Xenos, are destined to lose, and the plots are built around this. It’s why Dr.Doom loses to squirrel girl, why the Daleks are always beaten. But this stuff is usually put into PIS, plot shielding, ect and explained as in the fp rules for dealing with this phenomena.
“Yeah, but she’s not going to focus on one rouge Terminator anymore than the T-X needs to when it has John Connor right in it’s sights. It’s got bigger fish to fry, and doesn’t want to waste anymore time dealing with the T-850.”
===
If she had Connor inher sights, why didn’t she shoot? Because the T-850 kept preventing her, which is why she has to take him out first.
===
“No. It’s the largest hunter killer, walker type ground unit. Walker type, not treads like the HK-Tank.”
===
You are correct.
===
“I agree with your other two points. However, I’d like to point out that the T-X is also capable of controlling those units as well if it is able to use the nanoinjector on them.”
===
Yes, but it has never shown to do so with advanced machines. Feats are what matter here, not capabilities.
===
“And I never said that that it exclusively hunted humans. I never said it couldn’t do anti-vehicular attacks. Don’t put words in my mouth and then act all bad with it.”
===
I never put words in your mouth. This was what you said.
—
” It was just like, a smaller, lighter and more mobile HK-Tank, meant to do more direct hunting down of humans instead of the search and destroy the Ground HK Tanks did.””
—
See, you said it was MEANT to do more human huntig. While my link states that it’s PRIMARY job was anti-vehicular combat.
===
“The T-850s seem to just get explosive after being removed from the chest. He didn’t hit a button, he had the power cell housing come forward for extraction, he pulled the power cell out. The T-850 hadn’t been hit by plasma in that scene. He just pulled it out, put it in the T-Xs mouth, and BAM, it’s nuke time.”
===
Uh no. It opened because it was overheated. And the second time was the back up fuel cell, which more than likely is less durable and has a shorter life span. Plus he got hit by a helicopter, a backup anything is never as effective as the primary.
===
Oooo, and there’s also this.
—
“Though partially impaired having lost one cell, a T-850 can still operate at nearly fully capacity on its remaining fuel cell, though it will not be quite as powerful or as fast as before.[citation needed] The T-850 can operate for a short period on stored charge, enabling the removal of both fuel cells. Rated capacity and length of time before shutdown has yet to be determined since operational continuance would depend on functions required following the removal of the second fuel cell.”
—
terminator.wikia.com/wiki/Series_850
===
When running of the second battery the T-850 is not as effective.
===
“A and B) Hiding underground, and using cover. Plus, do not need to come out of cover to attack. A lot of the attacks they did were planting bombs and mines for the machines to run over and explode.
C)They did have camo. The uniforms were grey and matched the ash-colored battlefield. However, it didn’t help if they were spotted, as they were destroyed instantly the second they were seen.
D) In fact, humans are some of the stealthiest creatures on the planet. Ever seen how a sniper can wait in plain sight and never be seen? What do Navy Seals, Spec op units, secret agents, various assassins and Ninjas have in common? All masters of stealth, and all are human. Humans have written the books on how to be stealthy.”
===
A and B)Well, since the Xenos will be underground and using cover, you just proved my point that they won’t be spotted easily. How does one set a bomb on a road without coming to the surface exactly? C) That camo does jack shit since they give off heat. D) Not really, with the right gear and circumstances yeah, humans are stealthy. But nothing compared to a Xeno. Terrible comparison. Humans may have written the book on stealth, but Xenos created the language.
===
“A) Terminators do not strictly use infared to see. They are capable of simple enchanced sight and night vision by amplifying the ambient light. You can see Aliens. They are visible. These aren’t predators. And they are black, they will stand out against a grey background.
B) Not using machines and tools would be a disadvantage. Not using them doesn’t allow you to do anything outside whatever you are naturally capable of.
C) Xenos have to come out of hiding and thus move, being detected as soon as it happens, and shot as they are detected. And they can be seen by plain sight. They just don’t show up on infared. All the other vision modes will still work, because they aren’t based on body heat.
D) They are masters of stealth when they are in their environment, when they are in the hive. They stand out pretty good against various backgrounds. Terminators are not going to send all 50,000 units into the Hive just because that’d be what humans in a horror movie setting would do.”
===
A)The Xeno are practically invisible when up against the Hive webbing. Also, it has shown to mess up sensors that are over 100 years more advanced than anything in the Terminator movies.
B) Xeno have never and will never need to use machines. So this one is pointless.
C) Kindly explain to me why they need to come out of the Hive? They have never shown the need to eat when they are adults.
D) Since they will spend the majority of their time in the Hive, this comment is also pointless. And I never said they would send all 50,000. But they will send troops to the Hive. And they will be destroyed.
===
“I’m not. Take this, how did hundreds of Xenos, for weeks, be unable to catch just one little girl, with no weapons, and no training. That’s just not realistic. How did a single unarmed woman take out a Xeno, not once, but twice? How did same women, stroll all the way right up thru the hive, right up to the Queen, blow up the hive, not get a drop of acid blood on her, take a hostage out, and then escape while surrounded by dozens of xenos?
Why didn’t the Queen cause a ruckus on the drop ship and crash it on the way to the Sulaco?
Why didn’t the Queen slash the fleshy part of Ripley in the powerloader, which isn’t very armored at all, instead getting it’s head stuck in the arms all the time, especially if the Xenos are as smart as you say?
I enjoy this banter too. It’s too bad these always take so long to write.”
===
Newt was in a hiding spot. The Xenos didn’t know she was there. Ripley blew the thing into space because she is a human, and as we all know, humans are smarter. She didn’t get any blood on her because she wasn’t two feet from a Xeno when it blew up, and she wasn’t running around stabbing them. It wasn’t a very populated hive to begin with. The dropship part I don’t remember, are you talking about when the Queen was hanging on the dropship when Bishop flew it? The Queen was A) Not CGI so the team was limited when it came to movement. B) A very young Queen and not experienced. And C) Had it’s arms help by the loader. But I can see how the loader fight seemed unrealistic, I admit. I’ll watch the video to refresh my memory and get back to you.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSrcMaid0mg
===
This actually isn’t that unrealistic. The Power Loader had a much longer reach than the Queen. Ripley landed the first two blows giving her the advantage, and right when the Queen got up from the second blow, Ripley grabbed it’s head.
It’s time for my sleeps. Later.
When running of the second battery the T-850 is not as effective.
====
Not disputed.
====
Not CGI so the team was limited when it came to movement.
====
This argument is generally not accepted here. They could have done it with models or all the other things they did for sfx before cgi. Falls into that PIS kinda.
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Yes, but it has never shown to do so with advanced machines.
=====
T-1s are not considered advanced? She took those over pretty easy.
======
Uh no. It opened because it was overheated. And the second time was the back up fuel cell, which more than likely is less durable and has a shorter life span. Plus he got hit by a helicopter, a backup anything is never as effective as the primary.
===========
No, first time was directly damaged by the plasma attack of the T-X, which is why it was shown cracked upon a close up. Also, the T-850 crashed the helicopter he was piloting. The T-X was the one that got hit. The T-850 showed no evidence of damage to the endoskeleton from the crash, as it runs over, and holds up a blast door in its next act.
================
‘The Xeno are practically invisible when up against the Hive webbing’
========
True, and I mentioned they would be in the hive. They wouldn’t be outside the hive, where the Terminators would have to battle take place.
=======
They have never shown the need to eat when they are adults.
=======
Quote from
www.jamescamerononline.com/BiomechanicalInsect.htm
A source you Reaper at post 476, provided yourself.:
“As oppose to the aliens in the first two movies which fed on food supplies that they could find and that were also suitable for human beings, the Runner ate his victims with ferocious appetite and ate almost each and every one of them. Many insects and some arachnids eat only living or freshly killed food and are carnivorous only.”
Your own source has it’s own section about Xeno eating habits, as adults.
And with that, they’d have to leave the hive and seek out food, which leaves them open.
Now Terminators, they never need to eat, or drink, or rest, ever. No good reason for them to leave.
==============
Also, it has shown to mess up sensors that are over 100 years more advanced than anything in the Terminator movies.
==========
Different universes, so it’s not the same. Star Wars took place ‘a long time ago’ and it’s sensors are more advanced than both Terms and synthetics. Just because they are in the future doesn’t mean they are actually more advanced, and just because Terminators were made realitively speaking, in the past, they aren’t necessarily more primitive.
====================
D) Not really, with the right gear and circumstances yeah, humans are stealthy. But nothing compared to a Xeno. Terrible comparison. Humans may have written the book on stealth, but Xenos created the language.
===============
Xenos are only super stealthy in the hive, or in a few ships. They wouldn’t be stealthy in say, a desert, or a tundra, or a shore,or a savana, or plains or all sorts of environments. Humans adapt much better to their surroundings in this sense, as a human can render itself virtually invisible in any of these environments. Even Newt was able to hide in the Xeno controlled colony for weeks without detection. Thus, I’d say humans have a much greater capacity to be stealthy in multiple environments, where Aliens are only really stealthy and hard to see in Hives, or Ships from the Alien series. An xeno would stand out like a sore thumb on the classic white TARDIS control room, or the Enterprise, or Imperial ships. Those ships aren’t dark with lots of pipes sticking out for Xenos to hide in or among. Humans and Terminators would have much more success infiltrating these ships than Xenos would.
=========
And I never said they would send all 50,000. But they will send troops to the Hive. And they will be destroyed.
=========
Yes, they will send one T-850, with maybe a few T-800s, just a scouting party. And they will be destroyed when the T-850 detonates it’s fuel cells inside the hive, destroying hundreds of xenos in the process. 1-5 Terminators for 100+ Xenos is a good trade.
==========
As for the power loader, Ripleys legs are very exposed, as is her most of her body. The powerloader is a very slow and clumsy machine, not built for combat at all. A simple thrust right into her stomach from the tail should have done the trick, too fast too catch, very small as well, and it’s reach is longer than the power loaders.
==========
These posts are getting huge with us trying to pick out quotes and refute so many points. These posts are huge, but I think that’s good that we are really looking into this.
Oh, also, for the Xenos destroying the Terminators, no one ever showed a Xeno tearing apart any amount of metal. I’ve yet to see someone show me any proof the Xenos can harm Terminators besides bleeding on them. Biting them isn’t going to do anything, smacking them with the tail might knock one down, but it’d be far from hurt. Claws would just bounce off it.
And how many Xenos would die in the process of attempting to destroy a trio of Terminators in the hive? I’d say 50-60 ish, before they actually are swarmed and the T-850 makes a last ditch effort to kill as many Xenos as possible and ejects the hydrogen fuel cell to use as a bomb.
Yeah, these posts are getting pretty dam big haha. But I have to say that this is probably one of the best back and forths I have had. Each point is intelligent and each response is directly related to it and directly contradicts it. Very straightforward with little to no pointless comments.
===
I have to go run some errands today, so I might not be on. But this might give us a chance to see other people’s viewpoints.
===
And I have’t forgotten about the strength feat you asked for.
“ “Then why didn’t Skynet send an infiltrator to self destruct inside the rebel bases if it was that easy?”
======
Only T-850 really seen was in Terminator 3, and it was captured before it could self detonate apparently. Plot induced stupidity might also be a key factor in that. Can’t kill off the main character of your story because Hollywood. “
-
Also human resistance is cellular, each base only has about a dozen fighters and another dozen or two non-combat refugees which is not worth blowing up a terminator for. If a terminator can get inside undetected usually it can kill most or the entire cell with its conventional weaponry before the surprise wears off.
===
“ Hold the phone…are you telling me that a super advanced Terminator terminator with (according to you) super badass sensors and vision modes and scanners couldn’t tell whether it terminated the Terminator it was sent to terminate? Or maybe you’re telling me that the super badass Terminator terminator is a lazy bitch and didn’t bother to check if she terminated the Terminator she was supposed to terminate……Terminator? “
===
Her mission was not to kill the terminator, it was to kill Conner and the other resistance officers and he was getting away. The T-850 was just a known obstacle she had to get through to get to Conner and the others. Also she may not have known that the resistance had a T-850 and the solid hit she got would have killed an 800. For being “smarter, faster, and more powerful” than the 800/850 series she had less common sense than them, and showed annoyance and impatience when dealing with the T-850. Of course having a primary mission outside of her normal parameters might have put her a little off her game too, though it is not too likely.
===
“ Like I said before, why would you put fuggers in a match with no hosts? Pointless. “
===
Because face huggers are an unvarying part of their normal routine and the combatants do not know they are in a debate that does not include any humans at all. All they know is that they cannot find any humans in the local area so far.
===
“ Your whole suicide bomber theory is completely out of character for the Terms and Skynet. Skynet already has suicide bombers (those little bug looking fuckers), why would they waste resources making a combat ready robot only to have it blow itself to shit? Why put the vast array of technology and weapons on the things when they can just put tank tracks, the fuel cell, some armor, and a detonator and send thousands of them out to blow up the resistance? It is out of character and therefore not a valid argument. Also, the T-X is not a commanding unit. I believe that position belongs to the Centurions, they are explicitly stated to serve as the leaders. The T-X was made to take out rogue Terms, not to rally up 50,000. “
===
True, it is unlikely that they would use an entire T-850 just as a suicide bomber, making a bomb out of one of the fuel cells like Cameron did and planting it and getting back out on the other would be more likely. Another possibility would be to send a raiding party and if a T-850 is immobilized by damage it could blow after the others left since the one in T3 did it rather than fail its mission.
-
The collectible card game also has T-882 Tactical Command Units which usually work with T-804 snipers but are still a command unit.
===
“ Wait….or you telling me that Terminators with (according to you) badass sensors and scanners and (according to you) the capability to locate shit with ease, could not locate a rag tag bunch of humans who A. Give off heat, so can be seen by thermal vision, B. Have many machines in their bases that also give off heat,.C. Have no form of camouflage on their body and D. Are not notorious for stealth? But at the same time you expect me to believe that they will have no problem finding the Xenos who A. Do not give off heat, B. Do not use any machines, C. Are undetectable by motion, heat and any other type of vison modes (that we have seen) when they are perfectly still, and D. Are masters of stealth? How can you sit there and say that with a straight face? “
===
Human who are intimately familiar with Skynet and know its logic and weaknesses and know how to fool the active sensors and keep out of the way of the passives as much as possible. Xenos would not have that advantage and tend to make big single nests instead of the small spread out boltholes the resistance uses.
-
“ Oh, also, for the Xenos destroying the Terminators, no one ever showed a Xeno tearing apart any amount of metal. I’ve yet to see someone show me any proof the Xenos can harm Terminators besides bleeding on them. Biting them isn’t going to do anything, smacking them with the tail might knock one down, but it’d be far from hurt. Claws would just bounce off it. “
-
Before someone mentions the marine android that got speared, it was not anything like a terminator. Artificials have carbon fiber reinforced bones that like human bones are held together by soft tissue, not a self mobile armored combat chassis where there is no soft tissue to split the spine in half at. Bishops main enhancement for direct combat was reflex speed, like the knife trick before the drop, not armor.
“Okay then. Explain how a simple industrial compressor is stronger than a nuclear blast.”
That’s not the same Terminator as the one in Terminator 3.
-
“Human who are intimately familiar with Skynet and know its logic and weaknesses and know how to fool the active sensors and keep out of the way of the passives as much as possible. Xenos would not have that advantage and tend to make big single nests instead of the small spread out boltholes the resistance uses.”
I was going to get to this as well. And, it’s not like Skynet didn’t succeed in finding their bases. That was one of the main purpose of their Humanoid Hunter Killers. Infiltration.
-
This is the Resistance being led by John Connor, a man who has known about Terminators his whole life. This is why the Resistance is able to stand a chance against Skynet. It is also one of the reasons Skynet wants him dead.
“Yes, they will send one T-850, with maybe a few T-800s, just a scouting party. And they will be destroyed when the T-850 detonates it’s fuel cells inside the hive, destroying hundreds of xenos in the process. 1-5 Terminators for 100+ Xenos is a good trade.”
That’s what I was saying a couple pages back. It would be a useful tactic for the Terminators, due to the many xenos that would be killed, as well as somewhat mapping their positions in the sewers or subways, so the next group of Terminators that go in would know what was coming at them before it happened.
“Also human resistance is cellular, each base only has about a dozen fighters and another dozen or two non-combat refugees which is not worth blowing up a terminator for. If a terminator can get inside undetected usually it can kill most or the entire cell with its conventional weaponry before the surprise wears off.”
===
Who are you to judge whether or not an entire base is worth one Terminator? No one.
===
“Her mission was not to kill the terminator, it was to kill Conner and the other resistance officers and he was getting away. The T-850 was just a known obstacle she had to get through to get to Conner and the others. Also she may not have known that the resistance had a T-850 and the solid hit she got would have killed an 800. For being “smarter, faster, and more powerful” than the 800/850 series she had less common sense than them, and showed annoyance and impatience when dealing with the T-850. Of course having a primary mission outside of her normal parameters might have put her a little off her game too, though it is not too likely.”
===
I’ve already addressed this several times. And machines don’t have common sense, they run on logic.
===
“True, it is unlikely that they would use an entire T-850 just as a suicide bomber, making a bomb out of one of the fuel cells like Cameron did and planting it and getting back out on the other would be more likely. Another possibility would be to send a raiding party and if a T-850 is immobilized by damage it could blow after the others left since the one in T3 did it rather than fail its mission.”
===
Unless you can prove the Terminators have made make shift bombs out of their own fuel cells, then your argument is not valid. You cannot make up tactics that a character has never shown to do.
===
“Human who are intimately familiar with Skynet and know its logic and weaknesses and know how to fool the active sensors and keep out of the way of the passives as much as possible. Xenos would not have that advantage and tend to make big single nests instead of the small spread out boltholes the resistance uses.”
===
It doesn’t matter how familiar they are with Skynet. Seeing as how you keep praising Skynet for its intellect and advanced tactics, it should have had no problem finding a rag tag miltia hiding in holes. Xenos have the advantage of being undetectable. Something the humans are far from. And since there will be multiple Queens, there will be multiple nests.
===
“Because face huggers are an unvarying part of their normal routine and the combatants do not know they are in a debate that does not include any humans at all. All they know is that they cannot find any humans in the local area so far.”
===
First of all, how desperate are you that you are trying to weaken the Xenos with units that are not combat effective at all. Second, FP rules state that all combatants have general knowledge of the area and other combatants. Meaning the Xenos know they are in a city with underground tunnels, and are fighting robots and walking corpses. Third, good like getting the fuggers in the scenario when it comes to a vote. You are basically trying desperately to weaken the Xenos using pathetic and unfair reasons to render part of their forces useless.
===
“Before someone mentions the marine android that got speared, it was not anything like a terminator. Artificials have carbon fiber reinforced bones that like human bones are held together by soft tissue, not a self mobile armored combat chassis where there is no soft tissue to split the spine in half at. Bishops main enhancement for direct combat was reflex speed, like the knife trick before the drop, not armor.”
===
We have already addressed this. While the Synthetics are far more durable than a human, they are not as durable as the Terms.
===
“That’s not the same Terminator as the one in Terminator 3.”
===
True, but a blast doesn’t produce pressure in small areas. It’s very possible that the skull was thrown far away, meaning that the energy produced by the blast didn’t do that much damage. Think of it like thins, if you hit a rock with a hammer when it wasn’t against anything, the energy would be used to send it flying. But if you hit it with a hammer when it is on the floor, the majority of the energy would be sent into the rock itself.
===
“This is the Resistance being led by John Connor, a man who has known about Terminators his whole life. This is why the Resistance is able to stand a chance against Skynet. It is also one of the reasons Skynet wants him dead.”
===
Doesn’t matter, Skynet was “destined” to lose, so the efforts and strengths of the Resistance are moot by your logic.
===
“That’s what I was saying a couple pages back. It would be a useful tactic for the Terminators, due to the many xenos that would be killed, as well as somewhat mapping their positions in the sewers or subways, so the next group of Terminators that go in would know what was coming at them before it happened.”
===
How would they know what was coming if the Xenos were able to fool every type of sensor the Terms have? And T-850 is not a suicide bomber, Skynet has those already. You can’t just make up things.
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“And how many Xenos would die in the process of attempting to destroy a trio of Terminators in the hive? I’d say 50-60 ish, before they actually are swarmed and the T-850 makes a last ditch effort to kill as many Xenos as possible and ejects the hydrogen fuel cell to use as a bomb.”
===
Your opinion is completely biased.
===
“This argument is generally not accepted here. They could have done it with models or all the other things they did for sfx before cgi. Falls into that PIS kinda.”
===
No. The Terms were easy to show in movies because they were man sized. The Queen’s abilities were not accurately depicted due to tech limitations. A 20 foot alien than can run at about 30 mph cannot be done by using a suit or puppet.
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“Different universes, so it’s not the same. Star Wars took place ‘a long time ago’ and it’s sensors are more advanced than both Terms and synthetics. Just because they are in the future doesn’t mean they are actually more advanced, and just because Terminators were made realitively speaking, in the past, they aren’t necessarily more primitive.”
===
From the FP rules.
—
“The neutral arena incorporates a merged timeline for all parties involved parting from the point they were ported in. Combatants that have control over time or may otherwise affect the timeline may not go past this merging point.”
—
So yes, Bishops sensors are more advanced.
And about the Xeno strength feats. I have to watch the movies to get solid proof. I remember them tearing down metal doors with ease, but my word doesn’t cut it.
This match is dead to me. No intelligent arguments are being made without responses ranging from trolling to ignorance to flaming. Tone it down. I can’t see this scenario going anywhere unless there is a complete RE-POST. Either that, or if possible, admin could delete 5 pages of comments and everyone could stop with the F-bombs and insulting one another’s mental ability. Seriously, people need to calm down.
“This match is dead to me. No intelligent arguments are being made without responses ranging from trolling to ignorance to flaming. Tone it down. I can’t see this scenario going anywhere unless there is a complete RE-POST. Either that, or if possible, admin could delete 5 pages of comments and everyone could stop with the F-bombs and insulting one another’s mental ability. Seriously, people need to calm down.”
===
Someone is a little late. Have you not read the past 30 or so comments? Both parties have presented intelligent and thought out arguments for the most part. Me and Tech are the current two Pilers doing the majority of the debating and we seem to be getting along fine. Yes, we have had a few little mishaps, but we have even, on several occasions, said how much we are enjoying the current back and forth. Also, if it is dead to you, why do you feel to need to come in and express you misinformed opinion?
===
Deleting any of these pages would be a mistake. There has been many good points made on the last couple of pages. ESPECIALLY this page.
Who are you to judge whether or not an entire base is worth one Terminator?
============
No one truely is. However, as Terminators have various military strategies and tactics on file for reference and programs for their use, they will make very logical military choices with what they have.
==========
And machines don’t have common sense, they run on logic.
======
And ‘common sense’ often is decieving. Real logic leads to better results. Terminators would be better for it.
I’ll post a few things about common sense.
=============
From Wikipedia article of common sense:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense
Common-sense ideas tend to relate to events within human experience (such as good will), and thus appear commensurate with human scale. Humans lack any common-sense intuition of, for example, the behavior of the universe at subatomic distances [see Quantum mechanics], or of speeds approaching that of light [see Special relativity]. Often ideas that may be considered to be true by common sense are in fact false. Conversely, certain ideas that are subject to elaborate academic analysis oftentimes yield superior outcomes via the application of common sense.
========
www.cracked.com/article_17142_5-ways-common-sense-lies-to-you-everyday.html
For laughs
entirelysubjective.com/all-too-common/
============
Honestly, machines would do much better by following logic instead of the ‘common sense’ fallacy. They’d probably make tactical decisions that are even more fundamentally sound than any ones we could suggest.
=========
Unless you can prove the Terminators have made make shift bombs out of their own fuel cells, then your argument is not valid.
============
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXe8oGR4o14&feature=player_detailpage#t=119s
=========
Remove, crack if needed, throw, easy. Also, suicide bomb, wouldn’t take much to throw it if say, the target was getting away either.
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it should have had no problem finding a rag tag miltia hiding in holes
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It made Terminators for doing just that.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI42TeuwlMw&feature=related
==========
Xenos have the advantage of being undetectable
===========
Xenos are far from undetectable.
============
Doesn’t matter, Skynet was “destined” to lose, so the efforts and strengths of the Resistance are moot by your logic.
=========
As well as easy things Skynet should have done, but didn’t, due to plot convienince. It’s addressed in the FP rules. There is a reason why Xenos nor Terminators are never the victors of their movies, but we don’t hold these things against them.
===================
How would they know what was coming if the Xenos were able to fool every type of sensor the Terms have?
============
Per the FP rules, they will have a general knowledge of the enemy, such as tendencies and capabilities. Also, Xenos haven’t proven to be undetectable by Terminator sensors, only by the infrared, but they don’t use infrared exclusively. Also, Terminators can make use of radios and other communications, to report their findings to other Terminators.
============
And T-850 is not a suicide bomber
The T-850 is not a suicide bomber by design, but has the capability to do so. Like a Predator, it’s not a suicide bomber by nature, but if hurt and unable to do anything else, it’ll set off that nuke to achieve it’s goals.
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Your opinion is completely biased
==========
As is yours.
============
A 20 foot alien than can run at about 30 mph cannot be done by using a suit or puppet
====
Traditional animation, stop motion animation, scaled models, forced persepective and dozens of other techniques could have been used to make that scenario if they wished. You have to base your facts around what the movies and comics showed you, not take what your idea of the Xeno is and try to make the movies fit it. That is a confirmation bias.
============
“The neutral arena incorporates a merged timeline for all parties involved parting from the point they were ported in. Combatants that have control over time or may otherwise affect the timeline may not go past this merging point.”
==========
You’ve missed the point of that paragraph entirely. It’s meant to prevent timetravelers from retroactively aborting characters and avoiding fights that way.
=======
IE: If you had match of Magneto vs The Cybermen, that rule is to prevent the Cybermen from just avoiding an easy win by time travelling to when Magneto was a baby and killing him then, or killing his parents before he was born. It’s to prevent timefuckery.
==============
And it doesn’t make Bishops sensors more advanced just because they are built later. The Asguard and Gou’ald ships that were around in 1000 AD were far more advanced than anything the Aliens universe ever has, even though they’d be over 2000 years in the future.
2001: A space odyssey shows much more advanced space travel than we have currently in 2012. Just because it’s built later, doesn’t mean it’s more advanced.
=================
www.cracked.com/article_15756_3Cem3E20013Cem3E-to-3Cem3Etimecop3Cem3E-8-movie-futures-already-proven-wrong_p2.html
==================
This provides plenty of examples of similar phenomenon.
So, feats need to be taken on the merits alone.
===========
Terminators have their feats for sensors, Synthetics don’t, and can’t be assumed to be greater or lesser until you actually come up with them. For all you know, they could have nothing greater than a HUD and regular camera vision, no alternate modes, serving as their sensors. And that in no way would be greater than terminator sensors.
=============
Meaning the Xenos know they are in a city with underground tunnels, and are fighting robots and walking corpses.
==========
I’d be more convinced if you could prove to me a Xeno can even comprehend, ever, the concepts of city, robot, tunnel, ect.
I think they’d get the basic idea though like, city is a human hive, but as they aren’t very smart, they’d be limited in how much they could understand from it. You could try to tell a dog that there is a city with robots and zombies and get about the same level of understanding.
You tell the same thing to a Terminator, it’s got it all on file, and is analyzing things already.
============
Cybermen, that rule is to prevent the Cybermen from just avoiding an easy win by time travelling to when Magneto was a baby and killing him then,
========
got too fast with the typing. Fixed below
==========
that rule is to prevent they Cybermen from an easy win despite their clear disadvantage being made out of metal against Magneto by travelling back in time and killing him as a baby, or killing his parents. It makes them fight, instead of giving the Cybermen an automatic victory via time travel.
“They were created as the perfect bio weapon”
-
Spare me. I could think of plenty of bioweapons that exceed the Xenomorphs.
-
” The bugs from SST are just bugs. That’s an idiotic comparison.”
-
Have you even watched the movies? The basic bugs are multi-meter in hieght, rip through heavy metal, and only wilt and die from concentrated fire from weapons that would tear Xenos apart. Then there are monolithic bugs, brain bugs, and so on, not even counting the original work (Way too much of a stomp).
-
“Any bug that kills a Xeno is dead.”
-
And since the bugs will probably outnumber Xenos like 100 to 1, I guess that is a viable tactic. Sounds like good crossover material though
-
“(like Halo’s super nuke)”
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As to why people ever bring up the NOVA is beyond me. It is so rare of a weapon, with extremely limited uses (Or worthwhile uses I guess) that it would almost never come into play.
-
“, it should have had no problem finding a rag tag miltia hiding in holes.”
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You really don’t know what you are talking about. When you literally have to seach the entire planet for human survivors, and they could be almost ANYWHERE, things get a tad difficult. Xenomorphs would not be nearly as hard to find, if only due to searching a much smaller area, and looking for a much larger “base”
-
“So yes, Bishops sensors are more advanced.”
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That rule has nothing to do with what you are trying to prove.
-
“Have you even watched the movies? The basic bugs are multi-meter in hieght, rip through heavy metal, and only wilt and die from concentrated fire from weapons that would tear Xenos apart. Then there are monolithic bugs, brain bugs, and so on, not even counting the original work (Way too much of a stomp).”
-
The bugs require concentrated fire to kill because the Morita Assault Rifle uses 7.62 rounds thus are insufficient for dealing with large targets such as the SST Bugs. Put the M41 in their hand however it would be a completely different story since entire parts would come off and you can actually hit something with it instead of those piece of shit rifles. Put the M56 in their hands and it would be a even bigger difference. Actually train the soldiers properly and it would be an even bigger one. See what I’m getting at?
-
“And since the bugs will probably outnumber Xenos like 100 to 1, I guess that is a viable tactic. Sounds like good crossover material though”
-
Where did you get this idea from? The Xenomorphs were dispersed throughout the Galaxy and have many planets that they have taken over entirely. How man planets do the Arachnids have?
-
“You really don’t know what you are talking about. When you literally have to seach the entire planet for human survivors, and they could be almost ANYWHERE, things get a tad difficult. Xenomorphs would not be nearly as hard to find, if only due to searching a much smaller area, and looking for a much larger “base””
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There won’t be just 1 ‘base’
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“More were kicked open: Paris, Moscow, Brisbane, Antartic City. The things have spread far and wide as he had feared, but were still easy enough to find and destroy. The infection was bad, but controlled. Like a staph boil lanced and cleaned, it would heal. But then things started to change. The Tac teams were good at their jobs, practice making them better, and maybe they started to get sloppy. Or maybe it was some kind of forced natural selection. Like rats or roaches who have been hunted and poisoned or smashed flat, the aliens began varying their nest making. The hives got smaller and more numerous. The Tac teams would find only ten or fifteen eggs in a tiny chamber, and such places were harder to locate. And there were more of them. An area of Greater North Africa in the old Ivory Coast yielded no less than eighty small nests inside a fifty-kilometer circle. Some of the hives were in Abidan, in the basements of skyscrapers or old warehouses, but some of them were in the surrounding countryside, under the ground. Tac squads discovered implanted cattle, horses, and even goats in some chambers. Anything larger then a cat seemed to work. And while people in civilized countries who went missing were usually reporte, a farmer and a few dozen cattle in some rural area might not be noticed. It was as though the aliens were becoming smarter as a survival characteristic. Six months after the escape from the labs in Lima, Orona had to order a division-sized attack on a giant nest in Diego Suarez, on the northern tip of Madagascar. It was actually a series of several hundred smaller nests that had been tunneled and joined together. Eight months into the war, Orona was responsible for the nuclear destruction of Jakarta. A year after the war began, the continent of Australia was considered to infested to allow any travel to and from, and a full quarantine was instigated. Any ship, air vessel, or spacecraft trying to leave was shot down by Coast Guard laser satellites. It was no longer a matter of Tac units seeking alien hives to destroy. It was a matter of establishing perimeters and checking to make certain no carriers crossed into safe territories. It was truly war. Martial law was declared. All national boundaries were suspended. The Military Alliance came into being and civil liberties were put aside for the duration of the conflict. Suspected carriers of alien embryos could be legally shot by any commanding officer above the rank of colonel. Then it dropped to majors and captains. Then sergeants. Pretty soon, any soldier with a gun could shoot anybody he damned well wanted to, and if the scan came back negative later, well, too fucking bad. War was hell wasn’t it? A few civilians here and there to save a planet? Yes. Alien drones that were captured seemed to have gotten brighter. The smartest of which surpassed an average dog, insofar intelligence was concerned. But the single queen captured in a battle that destroyed half of San Fransisco’s downtown district tested out to above 175 on the Irwin-Schlatler scale. That made it smarter than most humans ever born.”-Aliens: Earth Hive pg. 256-258
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That should answer a few questions regarding the Aliens.
“And ‘common sense’ often is decieving. Real logic leads to better results. Terminators would be better for it.
I’ll post a few things about common sense.”
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I assume you’re agreeing with me.
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“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXe8oGR4o14&feature=player_detailpage#t=119s”
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No. That proves nothing. The T-850 even said, “When RUPTURED.” Skynet wouldn’t make the T-850 so advanced and battle ready to have it just blow itself to shit every time it’s in a battle. Why would they make actual bomber units if the weren’t going to use them? The two times this has ever been shown was 1) After the T-850 was hit by a plasma blast and the cell was damaged and 2) when the T-850 had no other choice. It was going to die anyway because it was holding up the door, it had no weapons, severe mobility limitations and the T-X was going for John and Kate. If it had any other way of destroying the T-X, it would have done it.
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“As well as easy things Skynet should have done, but didn’t, due to plot convienince. It’s addressed in the FP rules. There is a reason why Xenos nor Terminators are never the victors of their movies, but we don’t hold these things against them.”
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No, Skynet was never the victor. The Xenos are still going strong on other planets.
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“As is yours.”
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Well, yeah. I was pointing out that our personal opinions don’t really hold any weight.
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“Traditional animation, stop motion animation, scaled models, forced persepective and dozens of other techniques could have been used to make that scenario if they wished. You have to base your facts around what the movies and comics showed you, not take what your idea of the Xeno is and try to make the movies fit it. That is a confirmation bias.”
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Traditional animation in 1986 would have looked terrible, as would stop motion, scaled models would be problematic because the Queen was in close proximity to Ripley and the whole Queen was visible, forced perspective makes no sense because of the amount of contact being made. The Queen is AvP was CGI and if that was the first time someone saw a Queen, they would laugh at the original. And I’m not using my idea of what they should be, I’m using what they have been said to be.
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“You’ve missed the point of that paragraph entirely. It’s meant to prevent timetravelers from retroactively aborting characters and avoiding fights that way.”
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You’ve missed the first half of that sentence. Yes, the second sentence prevents time travelers. But the first sentence merges timelines. But I’m aware that I need more info on the sensors to accurately judge if they are more advanced. But they are not just a camera and shit. The scan shows the man asking Bishop if his sensors picked up anything ahead when the area was clearly visible.
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“The T-850 is not a suicide bomber by design, but has the capability to do so. Like a Predator, it’s not a suicide bomber by nature, but if hurt and unable to do anything else, it’ll set off that nuke to achieve it’s goals.”
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Except for the fact that the Predator only ever use their wrist bombs when they have no choice. So by design, they are suicide bombers as a last ditch effort. The first Predator did it to Arnie, and the Preds in the first AvP flashback did it. The Pred in the actual movie used it as a regualr bomb, but because they had a very easy escape route.
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“I’d be more convinced if you could prove to me a Xeno can even comprehend, ever, the concepts of city, robot, tunnel, ect.
I think they’d get the basic idea though like, city is a human hive, but as they aren’t very smart, they’d be limited in how much they could understand from it. You could try to tell a dog that there is a city with robots and zombies and get about the same level of understanding.
You tell the same thing to a Terminator, it’s got it all on file, and is analyzing things already.”
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I thought we’d already addressed the Xeno intelligence issue. The Xenos had no trouble comprehending the fact that air ducts are an easy way of travel. And way are subways but underground air ducts? And a dog is not a smart. And the rules don’t say they are TOLD about the match. They are informed, meaning no matter how they process or understand information, they are just as aware of the situation as the other two. Otherwise that would give the Terms an unfair advantage. Saying that Terms know everything about the Zeds and Xenos and the Xeno are too stupid to know what a robot is is against the rules. All sides have a general knowledge of all sides.
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“Spare me. I could think of plenty of bioweapons that exceed the Xenomorphs.”
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I’m so happy for you. Now, anything useful to say?
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“And since the bugs will probably outnumber Xenos like 100 to 1, I guess that is a viable tactic. Sounds like good crossover material though”
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Did you really just say that? Did you really just say that if they had 100 times the amount of troops then they would win? Well no shit Sherlock. How much of your amazing brainpower did you have to use to figure that out. Would you like us to wait so you can take a break? Put a million of each in the battle and see who would win.
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“As to why people ever bring up the NOVA is beyond me. It is so rare of a weapon, with extremely limited uses (Or worthwhile uses I guess) that it would almost never come into play.”
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When was this brought up?
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“You really don’t know what you are talking about.”
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And you do?
Here’s some more info
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“It was war, and men were losing. Orona marveled at this, that it should come to be this way. Man had the superior technology, it was man’s world, man had the advantages. Except–Except that the aliens had a stronger drive to live. They would sacrifice all for that, for the survival of the species. Only a few rare men were willing to do that. A mother would die to protect her child; a saint would walk into the fire for his fellow man or his god, but the instinct of self-preservation was too strong in most humans. The aliens didn’t care. If a hundred drones had to die to save one egg, then they would. And did. The things sprang up everywhere, in places where a rat would have trouble living, in spots where no one would have guessed they could spawn. Buried in the artic ice floes, in deserts, in the tamed jungles, on barges, anywhere there was room for a nest. Nobody knew how many of the things there were, there were only guesses. The estimates range from hundreds of thousand to tens of millions. Private ships left Earth in droves, so many the military could not stop or even inspect them all. Most only fled as far as the Luna or the Belt, some could reach the far planets of the system. A few wealthy souls banded together and bought private starships before the government clamped down and made such ownership illegal. Thousands ran because on Earth, there were few places left to hide. Orona was in one of those places, a heavily guarded military complex in Mexico. The perimeter was ringed with force fences, the ground mined, every car or air carrier that entered or left was scanned, every passenger fluoroviewed fo parasites. It was safe as anywhere left. In the end, Orona realized that the aliens were like a disease, not like an enemy army. The only way to save a patient was to cut off the cancerous parts and sterilize the wounds. And it was too late for that, it had metastasized and the knife and radiation drugs won’t be enough. It had all happened so fast, a wildfire that started with a match and only moments later was a conflagration. Nobody could have predicted it would erupt so quickly! A year and a half ago, men were supreme on their homeworld, top of the food chain, the king predator. But now…”-Aliens: Earth Hive pg 258-260
“I thought we’d already addressed the Xeno intelligence issue. The Xenos had no trouble comprehending the fact that air ducts are an easy way of travel. And way are subways but underground air ducts? And a dog is not a smart. And the rules don’t say they are TOLD about the match. They are informed, meaning no matter how they process or understand information, they are just as aware of the situation as the other two. Otherwise that would give the Terms an unfair advantage. Saying that Terms know everything about the Zeds and Xenos and the Xeno are too stupid to know what a robot is is against the rules. All sides have a general knowledge of all sides.”
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Xenomorphs know the difference between a synthetic and a human being right off the bat hence why they destroy Synths right away. There’s even a book called Aliens: Harvest where a scientist creates an android that looks exactly like a Xenomorph and is equipped with combat data that enables it to move and fight exactly like one. However without its fake pheromone emitter the xenos would know its not 1 of them. Canonically they hunt via pheromones, scent(there is a difference) and echolocation. Hence why they always hiss and their hearing is so impeccable that they can hear you through multiple decks of solid titanium.