Suggested by Aelfinn
Here we have two legends facing off against each other. First up is Dracula, one of the strongest Vampires to exist up against two-time Hall of Fame winner Link from the Legend of Zelda franchise.
Link is in his current incarnation. Dracula comes from Bram Stoker’s novel.
The fight takes place in an abandoned medieval city right after sundown.
The combatants start at opposite ends of the city.
Both combatants are well-fed and well-rested.
Who would win?
@epicazeroth
“Also, Shgon, if the Rule can be interpreted, the majority would make the decision, if nobody with authority’s said something either way.”
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But this isn’t “interpreting”, this is adding in “equipment doesn’t count if it’s self aware” when that’s not in the rule.
“The rule says what it says, it doesn’t care what has been “agreed upon”, unless Admin was the one doing the agreeing.”
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The Rule states that a character cannot tell another character to come and help them. Great. Then it goes on to say that despite this, the character still has access to their abiltiies and equipment. Also fine, but it doesn’t change anything.
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Yes, the character gets to keep their equipment, but this doesn’t mean that Cortana and Fi will be included because with the argument in mind, they are considered “people”, rather than “tools”. Under this frame of mind, the relationship between Master Chief and Cortana and Link and Fi is made equivalent to the relationship between Batman and Robin. The “argument” completely bypasses anything directly mandated Admin by defining what and what does not count as Equipment; it doesn’t challenge the Admin’s rule, it amends it.
@EnigmaJ
“it amends it.”
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Exactly what I just said with.
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“But this isn’t “interpreting”, this is adding in “equipment doesn’t count if it’s self aware” when that’s not in the rule.”
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Instead of making up new parts of the rule, someone could of just PM’ed Admin, and told him the wording needs to be a little clearer.
Ahh, I see, sorry. I skimmed and misinterpreted what you were trying to say to Epic.
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But yeah, there are a lot of things that the rules are somewhat vague on ( generalization of “common elements”, neutral battleground setting, etc ). This is just one of them. I guess someone could always email the admin or bring up a discussion thread on the ‘topia or something. Would be interesting to see the rules become more specified.
@EnigmaJ
“I guess someone could always email the admin or bring up a discussion thread on the ‘topia or something. Would be interesting to see the rules become more specified.”
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I’m thinking of doing it a little later, after I’ve thought of how I want to put the question.
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I mean, this is a rather impotent rule for a lot of magic users, who without “outside” powers, might as well be hogtied in a fight, for all the powers they would have left to use.
@Enigma: *facepalm* Yeah I do.
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@Shgon: I know, but I just ended the on-topic argument.
@Shgon: Or you could leave an open-ended question. If anyone thinks there’s something that needs clarification, then they post it.
@epicazeroth
“Or you could leave an open-ended question. If anyone thinks there’s something that needs clarification, then they post it.”
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Post it were, in my e-mail to admin?
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I’m not sure I get what it is your saying.
Oh, I thought you meant you were going to make a ‘topia thread.
By the way, about another thread going on right now, aren’t TARDIS’s self aware?
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Going by what you all are saying the rule is, the Doctor doesn’t get it.
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Try getting that one pass a Who fan.
…He doesn’t. It’s not standard equipment, it’s a vehicle. He doesn’t carry it around all the time.
The Imperator pretty much stated that not giving WHO characters TARDIS’ simply “isn’t done in debating circles”
__
It was actually you guys talking about it here, that made me think on it a little more xD
@epicazeroth
“…He doesn’t. It’s not standard equipment, it’s a vehicle. He doesn’t carry it around all the time.”
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….As almost all of the Vs for the Doctor I’ve see here involve time travel, that would put him at just a little bit of a disadvantage, don’t you think?
In that case, it would. But not in vs the GEoM.
@Epic
Aren’t the Doctor and the GEoM too busy trying to outthink, outsmart, outwit, just about trying to out-everything whatever else is vital to outplan someone, in fact?
So was any way shown for Link to stop Dracula becoming hair-breadth small, waiting for Link, and then breaking his neck?
@Aelfinn
“So was any way shown for Link to stop Dracula becoming hair-breadth small, waiting for Link, and then breaking his neck?”
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He can do that when he’s “hair-breadth small”?
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How does he even get his hair-breadth arms around Link’s neck?
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(hasn’t read all of thread)
He grows, then breaks his neck.
@epicazeroth
“He grows, then breaks his neck.”
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Or he grows, then gets stabbed in the heart with the master sword, as link, not knowing where his opponent was, took one of his invincibility potions just in case.
Why would you use an invincibility potion which has a fairly limited time limit before you can confirm your enemy’s possition?
@OriginalA
“Why would you use an invincibility potion which has a fairly limited time limit before you can confirm your enemy’s possition?”
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Because you can’t confirm your enemy’s position, and so they can jump out at you at any time, and try to break you neck?
Well, that was fast.
).
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My e-mail to admin.
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“Sorry to bother you, but I’ve got a question about rule #3(as the subject of the E-mail says
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According to some if equipment is self aware, then it counts as “outside help” by rule 3, and so can’t be use.
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I don’t agree, but the rule isn’t very clear when it comes to things like living swords, and for that matter stuff like Magic users who channel/invoke the power of others(gods, spirits, etc.), and I’m talking about stuff like clerics who use their gods power, not actually summoning the “others”.
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So I was just wondering if you could clear this question up a little, when you have the time
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Also if I may ask, why does the rule singled out the power to summon things? Why not just say batman can’t call superman, and leave magic powers alone? Not saying you should change it or anything, just wondering why.”
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His answer.
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“The reason Batman can’t just call Superman is that every battle would be a constant one-upping of calling for other help. The point of the matches is to see how Batman could beat Master Chief on his own merit.
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In the case of summoning, unless stated, the characters can use what they typically have. For example, Drizzt typically has Guenhwyvar (his panther) available to him for just about every battle.
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A cleric’s powers are part of what gives them power, so as long as it’s not invoking some God-like summonation to end the fight, those powers should be allowed.”
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Apparently even summoning is a-ok, so long as their not God-like.
“Because you can’t confirm your enemy’s position, and so they can jump out at you at any time, and try to break you neck?”
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What do you mean? The invincibility potion only lasts a limited amount of time. Link would have to use it and be lucky enough for Dracula to attack in that time period.
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“then gets stabbed in the heart with the master sword,”
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Decent Speed + Intangibility says No.
@Aelfinn
“The invincibility potion only lasts a limited amount of time.”
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That brings up a good point, as game time=/=real time, how long DOES it last in real time?
How long does it take for Link to pull out an invincibility potion and down it before it’s effects are activated? Also, during this time frame, would he be considered open to attacks?
@Halcyon
“Also, during this time frame, would he be considered open to attacks?”
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I don’t know, but I would think that would depend on if Dracula was busy off being “hair-breadth small” waiting for Link to pass by, so that he can break his neck.
“That brings up a good point, as game time=/=real time, how long DOES it last in real time?”
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3 minutes. Night/Day cycles are activated by a game mechanic in SS (resting in a bed). The potions last 3 minutes in real time. If not 3 minutes then even less as Link would then be moving faster than we normally perceive him depending on how you argue the game mechanics. But Factpile doesn’t recognize game mechanics as a viable arguement, so back to 3 Minutes.
What if Drac turns small, finds and follows Link, then waits for the potion to wear off?
@epica
How will Dracula even know what the potion does or how long it’s effects last?
He’s not stupid, he won’t attack if he sees his opponent drink a mysterious potion. Also, wouldn’t Basic Knowledge mean he’d know Link has potions that could change the fight or do something, but he wouldn’t know what they do?
I didn’t say Dracula would just outright attack him now did I? Besides Dracula has no idea what the potions or Link is capable of, as they do not know each other. Dracula might just think it’s a mild steroid or something. Only through fighting directly with Link would Dracula eventually learn what the potions do (not being able to hurt Link after he drinks the invincibility potion or Link not showing any signs of fatigue for a few minutes when he drinks the stamina potion)
@Shgon Dunstan
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That’s sort of kind of a significant shift from the assumption people tended to make around here… it’s bound to cause some kind of confusion in the future. Whatever. At least, there’s word of god to go on now.
@EnigmaJ
“That’s sort of kind of a significant shift from the assumption people tended to make around here”
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Which is the reason I’ve been posting it in any active thread I see that touches on Rule 3, so that as many people as possible can see that the assumption was wrong, and we can move past the confusion as quickly as possible.
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Also it’s nice to know that admin doesn’t in fact have an odd dislike of summoners.
“Anyway, on topic, Dracula is winning this due to control over weather, helping him hide in mists as a mist. He can also control over thousands of rats.
Skyward Sword Link doesn’t have an impressive area of effect(spin attack) compared to his other incarnations(Quake) and has possibly no counter to Dracula’s moves…”
What the fuck? You must still be on the first page of comments, otherwise you would have read that Link has counters to all of those things. Like literally every fucking thing you just said, Link can render null and void.
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To shut people up about Dracula’s man-mist.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7weVnt103kQ
8:15-8:40
The Master Sword absorbed the mist on it’s own after it started glowing.
“To shut people up about Dracula’s man-mist.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7weVnt103kQ
8:15-8:40
The Master Sword absorbed the mist on it’s own after it started glowing.”
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Yeah, but that also only worked on a dead Demise who had no conscious control over the mist. The mist in question also wasn’t the usual water-based mist or anything akin to it. I know Dracula probably isn’t water-based either, but it is also grab-able and at least has the appearance of the usual mist, so the two “mists” are very different.
forgot all about this thread
So wait ss link can counter anything drac can dish out?
i think so but dracula also has the ability to kill link if i recall.
Dracula may take this, his mental powers are he says dont see me, you dont see him.He is faster and he has distractions on his side
Dracula for the FP.
Okay, First Link’s doesn’t really know what a vampire is. For all he knows it’s “Something Evil & is weak in daylight.” So When Link Learns that he’s fighting this thing at night. He’s gonna go to a place where evil cannot pass. A place of prayer.
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And for those of you who are gonna ask. Yes Link knows what a church is because to him, it is a “place of prayer”. Temples and churches are both of these things, so effectively Link can make a church his base.
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And if Link doesn’t know what it is he’s gonna be cautious about fighting it, finding it, etc. Dracula’s only real threat is the rats, if they did nothing in the book then they do nothing here.
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Although a thought does occure to me. The hylian religion in the Decline timeline is based on Christianity (so much so that it was supposed to be it in the first two games but got blocked by NA Nintendo censors), and the Three Goddesses are heavily inspired by the three aspects of God (Father/Son/Holy Ghost/Trinity). It isn’t far fetched to parallelize the Three Goddesses and their followers to God and Christians. … Pity SS Link only worships Hylia, even though he is decked out in gear that is from the Goddesses.
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Eh, make of that as you will.
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It could be argued that the Hylians are some wierd fusion of Catholic Jews.
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They’re Jews because they are both a race & religion. And they’re catholic cause they worship a deity under a bigger deity. Hylia=Virgin Mary
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I doubt link would do any of that.
Link doesnt know any of Draculas weaknessess so why would he make a base in a church.
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Draculas only threat is the rats? He has speed,strength,mind control,weather control,etc etc. He has many threats.
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“Link doesnt know any of Draculas weaknessess so why would he make a base in a church.”
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Link knows that Dracula is an “evil creature from the dark”. And while they are fighting Link will discover his weaknesses.
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Mind Control only works when Drac has control of someone by drinking their blood I think. Weather Control I don’t remember exactly how it worked.
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As for the church thing. It depends if the fight goes there. If Dracula tries to summon the undead, they would most likely be at a graveyard near a church.
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I am gonna have to agree with the theory that OriginalA posted on Real Deities hurting Drac. It makes too much sense to argue.
Link plays the song of sunlight ;p
Exactly. Link activates Nayru’s love, plays the sun’s song, and proceeds to hack Dracula to bits. If somehow he gets cursed, he plays the song of storms and the curse is broken…oh wait, this is SS Link due to current incarnation…which I know nothing about. Too bad, because OoT/MM Link would win handily.
Link will discover his weaknessess,would he have time to do so,Dracula could kill him before that happens.
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Im going by movie right now,i havent read the novel in a long time but he was able to control minds with out drinking blood.
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To my knowledge dracula cant summon undead.
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I dont know what the real deities thing is.
“I dont know what the real deities thing is.”
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OA’s argument that Dracula will be hurt by the Master Sword.
Oh do you know which post it was because i want to read it?
Vampires aren’t exactly unknown you know.
Yea i know mostly every game has them but i havent seen any if Legend of Zelda to make the claim link would know what it is, And even then Dracula is different from most nosferatu,
“Oh do you know which post it was because i want to read it?”
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Well, it is actually a series of about five posts over the development of the argument. It is also quite lengthy, but the essence of it is that the Master Sword will function like a sacred weapon against Dracula (aside from its already-present Evil’s bane element, that is)
I dont think the master sword will work as a crucifix,it will hurt him but it will not have the same effect as a cross.
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Dracula is specifically anti-christ or anti christian. Not anti religious,
Wow… I just wasted about an hour looking through web paged, gathering details, and composing my post…. under the assumption that this was Dracula from Castlevania…. Well that post is useless now, and now I have nothing of value to add. I’m bummed out now.
“Wow… I just wasted about an hour looking through web paged, gathering details, and composing my post…. under the assumption that this was Dracula from Castlevania…. Well that post is useless now, and now I have nothing of value to add. I’m bummed out now.”
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Ouch! I hate it when I myself do that, especially on exam essays XO
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But if you ever checkinto this post again, OA, could you perhaps answer a question that’s been bugging me? Here goes…
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So, when Demise gets defeated in SS, he rages in a final monologue and says that an INCARNATION of his hatred will torment Hyrule for its entire history, mentioning a curse involving history written in blood, or thereabouts. Is that incarnation Ganondorf? In TP, Ganondorf uses extremely similar wording just before Zant snaps his own neck. I think Ganon also mentions it somewhere in another series as well (aside from swearing vengeance upon Hyrule’s descentants at the end of OoT). To top it all off, one of the creators of SS specifically stated that Ganondorf, and his later appearances, would be hinted at during the game. And I know Demise does look different from Ganondorf, but there are a lot of similarities as well, especially the red hair and facial features. What say you?
Dracula from castlevania would take link pretty easily i think.
“Dracula from castlevania would take link pretty easily i think.”
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That would depend on the version. A lot.
Which version do you think stands a chance or could take him?
WW Link and OoT Link right off the top of my head, and possibly one of the Oracles Links. Also, ALttP Link would put up a good fight, and possibly LoZ/AoL link might win as well. TP Link would die quickly without Midna if he does not have the MS. If he had the MS fully charged with the Sols, he MIGHT stand a chance.
Why are other Links being mentioned? The OP said on page 1 that this is Skyward Sword Link.
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“Draculas only threat is the rats? He has speed,strength,mind control,weather control,etc etc. He has many threats.”
All of that was countered over and over on each page, man.
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Rats? Their nothing but a minor nuisance to a guy that can go head to head with a literal army of blade and bow wielding monsters all by himself.
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Speed? How much? Link fought Ghirahim just fine, and Ghirahim was very quick in a dead sprint as well as moving so fast that it looks like teleporting. Not to mention that Link has the reflexes to react to arrows.
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Strength? How much? Link is no slouch in the strength department either. Especially when he was in the Faron Woods rolling around vehicle sized logs and chucking man sized boulders over his head. Or when he was using Koloktos’ man sized swords against him or breaking the stone off of Magmanos with just his sword swings.
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Mind control? What kind of mind control? Give some specifics. How does it work? Who or what has it worked on? Has it ever failed?
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Weather control? We’ve already established how useless that will be here. He can’t call up a thunderstorm or something fast enough. Plus, Link can just use the Master Sword as a lightning rod to charge his Skyward Strikes with electricity.
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Link has this, handily.
@ Marcel:
Nitpicking on post 559, but Oracles Link is the same Link as LttP/LA. More specifically the events go LttP > Oracles > LA. So unless you are specifying specific arsenals there is no reason to distinguish between Oracles and LttP as they are the same guy, which also makes that Link the most recurring Link in the series by having four games vs at most two games.
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As for your question in post 555, yeah. Ganondorf is at the very least guided by the curse from Demise. If nothing else, Ganondorf is motivated by the curse to be destined to be opposed to Link and Zelda. The Hyrule Historia confirms that Demise’s hair was designed specifically to imply a direct connection with Ganondorf. This much is canon.
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Drifting into fan theory now: Personally I think Demise’s Curse …. attached itself (for want of a better description) to one of Groose’s descendants (honestly, I mistook Groose for a very young Ganondorf when I first saw him… it made the beginning of SS very weird for me and gave it a very high school fan fic feel), and also Groose is the patriarch of the Gerudo and as such the curse attached itself to Ganondorf and from there you get the typical Ganon reincarnation cycle (he dies in several games yet only stays dead/sealed in the Adult/WW timeline). The cycle that TP Ganondorf and Demise refer to is also given a different spin in LttP where if a person with an evil heart gets the Triforce then a Hero is destined to appear. So this cycle of the Spirit of the Hero vs Incarnation of Demise’s Hate has existed in the series in some form or fashion since LttP was made.
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Also of note is that some fans believe that Demise’s Curse is not exclusive to Ganondorf, but rather all high tier demons, and given the wording of the curse this is possible. Malladus specifically is suspected of being an Incarnation of Hate. Like Demise and Ganondorf, Malladus is a Demon Lord and Demon King, a title only shared between these three. One of Malladus’s forms looks like TP Beast Ganon’s form. Furthermore Malladus rose to power after the defeat of WW Ganondorf which occurred earlier in this timeline. The absence of Ganondorf in the Adult Timeline is noticeable. And while Ganondorf was motivated to gain the Triforce, Demise’s Curse is motivated against the Blood of Hylia and the Spirit of the Hero… and the Triforce resides in Hyrule and in the Adult Timeline the Blood of Hylia and the Spirit of the Hero have left that Hyrule and founded a new one that does not have the Triforce residing in it. Oh, and at one point or another Demise, Ganon, and Malladus all required Zelda’s body. Demise required her soul. Ganon required Zelda’s body as a vessel but also required her death to spread despair. Malladus required Zelda’s body as a vessel to restore himself, much like Ganon in Oracles actually.
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So, yeah, Ganondorf is definitely an Incarnation of Demise’s Hate. Whether or not that curse created Ganondorf out of nothing or merely inflicted itself upon an existing being is unknown. It is possible that the Curse also causes non-Ganon villains to appear, maybe.
@ OA
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Thanks for clarifying that, man. So, correct me if I make an assumption, and I hope it won’t require a lot of work to answer on your part. However, here it is: If Demise was the original Demon King, would it be safe to say that both Ganondorf and Malladus are his “spawn,” in a sense, as they are incarnations of Demise’s hate? And if so, are they equal to the power Demise once held, (aside from Ganon obtaining the Triforce), or is Demise the “real deal?”
@ Negative Zero
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You’re alive! I spent some time wondering how many people would return after the disqus tests, not to mention how long it would take for them to come back…Anyway, as to this question:
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“Why are other Links being mentioned? The OP said on page 1 that this is Skyward Sword Link.”
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I am aware of this, lol. The reason I brought it up is because Ammo suggested a possible later matchup of Link vs Castlevania’s version of Dracula, and wanted to know which Links would put up a good fight.
Strength of twenty men
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Speed enough to clean a room before a guy turned around and it was quiet enough for the man to now know it happened.
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Weather control isnt something to do mid fight,i dont even know ho fast he did it. And its not to kill him its for cover summoninig mist.
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Mind control,im going off of the movie i have to look back through the book but in the movie he said dont see me and lucy i think it was didnt see him.
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The rats are a distraction also.
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” If Demise was the original Demon King, would it be safe to say that both Ganondorf and Malladus are his “spawn,” in a sense, as they are incarnations of Demise’s hate?”
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Successors would be a better word. They directly gain the title of Demon King in order. The Demon King Ganon is definitively the incarnation of Demise’s Hate, but Demon King Malladus being an incarnation of Demise’s Hate is just fan theory. There is a fair deal of evidence to support that theory and I will remind you that Multiple Links, Multiple Ganons, Multiple Zeldas, and Multiple Timelines each started as fan theories before being canonized. None of these theories were 100% accurate before they were canonized but they had a spark of truth in them.
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So as far as Factpile is concerned, I would say that no, Malladus is not an incarnation of Demise’s Hate due to a lack of direct supporting evidence. As far as the Zelda community is concerned, it is quite a real possibility that he is due to a large amount of circumstantial evidence and precedence for circumstantial evidence being viable for canonization. Do note though that I previously used similar circumstantial evidence to argue that OoT absolutely could not be the Imprisoning War from LttP’s backstory; turns out it was, so that can cut both ways… and that is fine for the Zelda community to speculate on but it throws enough doubt into the mix for Factpile debates.
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“And if so, are they equal to the power Demise once held, (aside from Ganon obtaining the Triforce), or is Demise the “real deal?””
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Depends on how you look at that question.
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Mind you Demise and Ganon both had more obvious governmental control over the demon race when compared to Malladus but he is also sealed for the vast majority of his game (then again, so was Demise so eh). Demise being the original source of demonkind does give him a bit of a one-up when compared to the other two, but aside from that they are all fairly comparable. But it does depend on when you are taking these characters in context on whether or not they are equals.
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Demise took quite a beating. Even several defeats while he was still sealed away as a monstrous form. The fact that it took timey-wimey hijinks to defeat him does add to his credentials, and he nearly killed Hylia in his battle against her (Hylia being amongst the most obviously powerful beings in the series. Only the Three Goddesses and the implied powers of the gods that define the abstract ideas of time and space being more powerful than her; implied being the word of emphasis there). So he sets the bar really high. BUT he fell against Link and the Master Sword. That means that the Master Sword is a HUGE force multiplier when used against these guys.
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Now to Malladus, cause he’s easier. In the bactstory he was defeated and sealed by WW/PH Link and Zelda + Lokomo allies. His body was separated from his spirit and his spirit was sealed within a tower that was powered by a country wide magic circuit. That’s a pretty beefy seal IF size is directly proportional to effect, unfortunately evidence doesn’t support this entirely. Phyiscal seals like the Crystal Prison certainly are powerful and they are small. Demise’s seal itself was also fairly small. Even Ganondorf’s seals were either physically small or entirely metaphysical in nature. But Demise could struggle against his seal. Ganondorf has broken his regularly after 100 years (400 in Lttp’s case). But Malladus’s seal was broken by outside help. Yes, true, TP and LttP and even SS all used Outside Help in their stories, but Demise was struggling against his seal independent of his minion’s work. LttP’s entire story depends on Ganon sending a part of himself through the seal while it was still active so that he could become his own outside help. TP might be a legit example of requiring an outside force that he could not construct from within by entirely his own power. WW had Ganon break his seals twice. In the backstory he broke out of his seal, attacked, and got sealed again, and WW kicks off because he is active (but still partially weakened by the second seal) again. The fact that there is no implication that Malladus’s seal was weakening from within does help the case that size does matter, but its only supportive evidence is itself. Moving on. Malladus was defeated by the Bow of Light and the Lokomo Sword, both filled with sacred energy from the Spirits of Good. Divine energy is consistantly shown to be pretty effective when weaponized against demonkind; that is where Light Arrows get their Evil’s Bane after all, and I don’t think I have to explain how powerful Evil’s Bane is. Malladus’s fight itself is actually fairly straight forward and relatively quick. … Kinda like Demise’s final battle actually. Of note is that Zelda’s body contained sacred energy of the spirits. Now New Hyrule worships the Spirits of Good rather than the Goddesses and Hylia. But Zelda’s bloodline has Hylia’s blood in it and her godly powers have been a recurring theme in the franchise and in the royal family. There has not been a mention of either WW Zelda or ST Zelda gaining these sacred powers, so the only sacred powers in the royal family bloodline that is known can be traced back to Hylia. This is important because the Spirits of Good power all of the Evil’s Bane in this game and since their powers can be (probably) be traced back to Hylia that means that the Spirits of Good could be a new age term for the old Hyrulean gods (the Goddesses and Hylia), which in turn bumps up the metaphysical power level of the Bow of Light and the Lokomo sword to somewhere around the Light Arrows and … maybe not quite Master Sword levels, but still pretty high. Malladus fights for a bit but he dies soon enough, but he was also fighting his newly possessed body too, so he wasn’t fighting at his peak. So against sub-par weapons and with a sub-par body, he takes close to as much damage as Ganondorf and Demise take.
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Now Ganondorf. First off all fights where he had the Triforce of Power are being thrown out of the window because of the difference in WW and TP Ganon’s defenses. In WW Ganon lost his ToP and fought Link and Zelda and roughly lasted as long as Demise and Malladus. TP Ganon possessed Zelda and got weakened by taking repeated holy blasts there, took repeated blows to his permanently weakened scar, took a massive blow from Midna’s super magic (the castle busting scene; not sure who busted it though), took a ton of Light Arrows, then fought Link’s Master Sword, and took it through the heart, and then only after the ToP leaving him AND having his soul-tied minion commit suicide did he die due to the wounds that Link, Zelda, Midna and the 6-9 deities that were empowering their weapons. Yeah, some of those same deity empowered weapons were used in the WW fight, but it sounds more impressive this way. There is a massive difference in the WW Ganon fight and the TP Ganon fight and the major difference is that TP Ganon had his ToP for his fight, so that is why I’m not going to be looking too hard on those fights.
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OoT Ganon (no ToP) was very powerful, but he didn’t have the physical power to endure much. Think of him as more of glass cannon. He was killing minor gods! But he didn’t dare attack Hyrule directly until he could make a move for the Triforce; the Triforce was needed for him to conquer Hyrule since his forces were A) not there in force and B) he was very mortal. After he became a demon though (so WW now) he was super powerful. He might not even be dead in that timeline and he is merely sealed in time…. after taking the Master Sword to the brain. So, yeah, he’s up there. FSA Ganon has the Trident of Darkness empowering him. This incarnation was again born mortal and then turned demonkind. He could not be killed by the Four Sword, which has minor (but weakening) Evil’s Bane. Even with Zelda’s magic aiding the four Link’s, he was just barely sealed away.
Oracles Ganon is a severely weakened form of Ganon. He was dead and then came back but the resurrection spell went wrong and it was incomplete. By the very nature of the narrative, we are looking at a very weak version of Ganon. Even still he can completely null damage from all attacks that doesn’t have Link’s inner strength magic being channeled through it or has the Master Sword’s Evil’s Bane. Nothing else will do. Now Link’s inner strength magic is something that is only implied in the Oracle games, but the Japanese text of LTTP (same guy as Oracles so stay with me here) it is explicitly the strength from within, the strength of The Hero, that allows Link to use some of his abilities which includes the Spin Attack, which happens to be the only attack that can harm Oracles Ganon if you do not have the Master Sword.
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LoZ Ganon is the last Ganon of note here. Now he has the Triforce of Power boosting his abilities, but even with that he still takes damage from completely mundane swords. Silver Arrows (which are GODLY powerful!!!) are required to kill him, but we have seen WW Ganon and even Oracles Ganon no-sell mundane attacks. Oracles doesn’t even have the benefit of the ToP to do that. According to the Hyrule Historia timeline, LoZ Ganon was resurrected rather than reincarnated like FSA Ganon (who followed TP Ganon), so unlike the change from TP to FSA Ganon (who healed that nasty scar from TP but at a cost of his demonic powers that he had to reclaim), LoZ Ganon is the result of two resurrections, one of which was already a botched job. His wonky weaknesses is probably the result of resurrection decay, which was seen not only in Oracles but also in TP!! The whole reason TP Ganon has that scar is because he was KILLED before he had the Triforce of Power, which he gained immediately afterwards and it resurrected him. So LoZ Ganon, even when empowered by the ToP, has just taken so many battle scars from death that he just doesn’t compare even when compared against himself when he doesn’t have the ToP. … with the exception that LoZ Ganon requires Silver Arrows to finish him off, but again, he does have the ToP and it is very powerful.
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So.
Demise and Malladus and WW Ganon (the only Ganon that is fought after he is demonic, does not have the ToP, and has not been weakened by previous death) are basically just as tough as each other. So … yeah… Demon Kings are pretty close to each other when it comes to what it takes to kill them.
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When you look at what they can do offensively it is pretty clear (to me at least) that Demise > Ganondorf > Malladus. Demise has that whole “conquered time” thing and nearly killed a full blown high tier goddess, and she considered him a treat to the entire world. Ganondorf was killing minor gods as a mortal, but after that most of what he can do could possibly be attributed to the ToP; he has it so often it is next to impossible to tell where his demonic and dark magic abilities end and where his divinely boosted abilities begin. Malladus, while also a national threat like Ganondorf, … he just doesn’t have the feats.
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Sum up:
Assume Ganon is a demon king by this point but no ToP.
Offensive Power: Demise >> Ganon > Malladus.
Defensive Power: Ganon ==Malladus => Demise (he didn’t require special arrows to kill; they did).
Govenmental Power over Demonkind: Demise => Ganon > Malladus.
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All of that said. Compelete Triforce wielding LttP Ganon >> all of them. He could no-sell the Master Sword and Silver Arrows!! And if he broke through his seal the Maidens (last of the line of the Seven Sages) feared for the world; not just Hyrule. He had enough governmental pull as Demon King that he could command his minions to carry out his orders through hundreds of years of being sealed away and even death itself. I know Demise was sealed for longer, but it seemed to me that only Gharhim was acting as his hand for that time. LttP Ganon had the 7 demons locked within the seal with him, but also the Twinrova sisters actively working in case he died (and they had been serving him for the 400 years prior) and THEY had Onyx and Veran whom each in turn had their own minions too.
Wow, good read, good read. Srsly, as in-depth as u went, this helps a LOT, so thanxaton! This also ought to make for some much better match suggestions, as well as possibly seeing Demise in future matches!
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So what u were saying about the whole Ganondorf and the ToP thing, does that mean he is using Divine power to boost his magic, or has he been shown to use it separate from his magic? The only two instances I can remember his using the ToP possibly alone are both in OoT, where he uses it to keep Navi out of the fight initially, and when he uses it to transform into Ganon. I may be delving into another whole can of worms here, but is there a definitive line (at least, for OoT Ganon) between what he can use of the ToP should he ever become separated from his magic?
“Strength of twenty men”
Oh…..how vague.
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“Speed enough to clean a room before a guy turned around and it was quiet enough for the man to now know it happened.”
Also very vague. How big was this room?
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“Weather control isnt something to do mid fight,i dont even know ho fast he did it. And its not to kill him its for cover summoninig mist.”
Mist that can be blown away with Link’s Gust Bellows or absorbed with his Master Sword.
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“Mind control,im going off of the movie i have to look back through the book but in the movie he said dont see me and lucy i think it was didnt see him.”
Then it’s not the canon being used for Dracula here, which is the original Bram Stoker novel.
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“The rats are a distraction also.”
Lol no. These are just normal little rats, nothing like the kinds of rats in various LoZ games. They’ll just run around doing what rats do, it’s not like they’ll intentionally attack Link. If anything, they would be a minor nuisance, but a piss-poor anything else.
I will have to re read the novel to get a grasp on things.
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Well if we go by the average bench press an untrained man weighing 165 lbs, it’s about 119 lbs. Multiply that by 20 and you get 2380 lbs, just over one ton. So not that impressive compared to what Link has shown us.
actually its 20 strong men.
where did you get your calc for that lifting? its not that i dont actually believe you its just thats really weak
20 strong men? Oh that does change things.
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where did you get your calc for that lifting? its not that i dont actually believe you its just thats really weak
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It’s average bench press of an untrained male who weights 165 lbs. But since it’s 20 strong men as Amm0 says, that changes things.
“It’s average bench press of an untrained male who weights 165 lbs”
but where did you find that statistic? i’m sorry i know thats unrelated but i find that fascinating
“So what u were saying about the whole Ganondorf and the ToP thing, does that mean he is using Divine power to boost his magic, or has he been shown to use it separate from his magic? The only two instances I can remember his using the ToP possibly alone are both in OoT, where he uses it to keep Navi out of the fight initially, and when he uses it to transform into Ganon. I may be delving into another whole can of worms here, but is there a definitive line (at least, for OoT Ganon) between what he can use of the ToP should he ever become separated from his magic?”
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Triforce Piece magic is generally too subtle to be distinguishable from a user’s normal magic. There are several things in OoT that can be possibly attributed to the ToW, or Hylia’s blood, or a glitch in the timeline. TP Ganondorf’s defense strength vs WW Ganondorf’s defense strength can only be explained by TP Ganon’s link to the ToP and to Zant (which only comes into play when he dies). He took a lot more killing than WW Ganondorf did and the ToP wasn’t glowing brightly despite being implied to be the cause of this massive difference. OoT Link never got the ToC in the Decline timeline since he never got the Master Sword, and he never beat Ganondorf. Yet when we play as Adult OoT Link or even Child OoT Link (post grabbing the Master Sword and as such getting the ToC) nothing feels different or out of place. Its magic is too subtle to separate it from how things just are. Is OoT Ganon just that powerful to do those things with his magics or is it because the ToP is helping him?
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There is just too much subtle magic that all of the pieces use that makes it impossible to single things out. TP vs WW Ganon’s defenses being one of the few exceptions since there is a big and obvious difference despite a very similar set up between the two. Speaking of TP Ganon; his ability to use twili-style magic may be because he learned it or may be because he is soul-tied to Zant and it is a perk that he gains from just as Zant gains a power boost and access to new spells (actually it probably is that now that I word it that way since it basically is the exact same thing except in reverse).
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Short answer is, Sorry but no. Unless the Triforce Piece is being extremely obvious in its work at the time (transforming Sheik into Zelda, transforming Link into Wolf Link instead of a lost soul in the Twilight, transforming Tetra into Zelda, transforming Ganondorf into Ganon, keeping Navi at bay, resurrecting Ganondorf twice in TP [failed the second time at the end]) or is stated to be doing something (transforming Ganondorf into a demon in LttP) it is pretty much indistinguishable from normal things going on, like TP vs WW Ganondorf’s defenses. I keep saying that because it is the easiest to spot and there is a pretty big difference.
“actually its 20 strong men.”
And?
but where did you find that statistic? i’m sorry i know thats unrelated but i find that fascinating
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voices.yahoo.com/can-lift-as-much-as-average-man-10938146.html?cat=5
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www.livestrong.com/article/380767-how-much-weight-can-the-average-man-lift/
“And?”
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And it would help sorrow make a better calc than he did.
@thesorrow
thank you for quenching my thirst for irrelevant information
You can use this chart to gauge. www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/BenchStandards.html
Are there any descriptions involving Dracula’s height and/or physical features. That might be helpful.
Im actually skimming the novel right now.
“You can use this chart to gauge. www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/BenchStandards.html ”
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I’m lovin that chart, puts me at intermediate despite having no training… Ever…
As an added note, the LoZ rats are actually the size of cats, and intentionally attack you with quick lunges. In TP, they are even bigger, as well as being invisible to those without honed senses. the Invisible ones also jump on you in groups, greatly slowing down all your movement. Nothing like the ones Dracula could probably conjure.
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As for strength, Link can stop a charging goat fully as tall as he is in full gallop and toss it on the ground WITHOUT iron boots to help him with leverage. If you don’t see that as impressive, check out what a little mad sheep did to this car!
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdF_BFYf8Sk
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Those were some big dents…
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Now to the calculations. A bighorn sheep (a good deal smaller than these goats, but I am going to assume they can generate roughly the same force) can on average generate about 2400 lbs. So without the Iron boots for leverage, he already has the strength advantage over Dracula. WITH the iron boots, Link stops a Goron (a six to seven foot man made of solid rock) instantly travelling at a spped of at least 40kph, if not more. Link outclasses Stoker’s Dracula in strength by quite a bit.
“I’m lovin that chart, puts me at intermediate despite having no training… Ever…”
i’m between intermediate and advanced i feel so strong
@Marcel
Wrong Link again….
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yatz_JTcTdg
Link pushes car sized logs as well as throwing human sized boulders.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dmkem-whyM
(4:15-13:30)
Link is able to pick up and effectively wield a weapon at least twice his size.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=UteOc8q4hwk
Link is strong enough to smash volcanic rock with a few sword swings.
“There are such beings as vampires, some of us have evidence that they exist. Even had we not the proof of our own unhappy experience, the teachings and the records of the past give proof enough for sane peoples. I admit that at the first I was sceptic. Were it not that through long years I have trained myself to keep an open mind, I could not have believed until such time as that fact thunder on my ear. ‘See! See! I prove, I prove.’ Alas! Had I known at first what now I know, nay, had I even guess at him, one so precious life had been spared to many of us who did love her. But that is gone, and we must so work, that other poor souls perish not, whilst we can save. The nosferatu do not die like the bee when he sting once. He is only stronger, and being stronger, have yet more power to work evil. This vampire which is amongst us is of himself so strong in person as twenty men, he is of cunning more than mortal, for his cunning be the growth of ages, he have still the aids of necromancy, which is, as his etymology imply, the divination by the dead, and all the dead that he can come nigh to are for him at command; he is brute, and more than brute; he is devil in callous, and the heart of him is not; he can, within his range, direct the elements, the storm, the fog, the thunder; he can command all the meaner things, the rat, and the owl, and the bat, the moth, and the fox, and the wolf, he can grow and become small; and he can at times vanish and come unknown. How then are we to begin our strike to destroy him? How shall we find his where, and having found it, how can we destroy? My friends, this is much, it is a terrible task that we undertake, and there may be consequence to make the brave shudder. For if we fail in this our fight he must surely win, and then where end we? Life is nothings, I heed him not. But to fail here, is not mere life or death. It is that we become as him, that we henceforward become foul things of the night like him, without heart or conscience, preying on the bodies and the souls of those we love best. To us forever are the gates of heaven shut, for who shall open them to us again? We go on for all time abhorred by all, a blot on the face of God’s sunshine, an arrow in the side of Him who died for man. But we are face to face with duty, and in such case must we shrink? For me, I say no, but then I am old, and life, with his sunshine, his fair places, his song of birds, his music and his love, lie far behind. You others are young. Some have seen sorrow, but there are fair days yet in store. What say you?”
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From the book,so it is just men.not strong men.
“Again I could not but notice his prodigious strength. His hand actually seemed like a steel vice that could have crushed mine if he had chosen. ”
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“and holding out his hand grasped mine with a strength which made me wince”
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijkXbAEVjyk
(1:40-2:10)
Link survives being crushed by a giant scorpion’s claws a few times.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK6nNgzwM1g
(2:00-4:10)
Link survives being crushed by giant tentacles a few times.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhfXtOzAhFA
Link takes a very hard landing from Skyloft to Hyrule.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yy5dH-5nQA
Link completely tanks being shot out of a cannon and falling into a rotating floor.
Link vs Ghirahim, Link literally hacks Ghirahim’s sword to bits on multiple occasions. In fact, it’s the only way you can beat him in that part of the fight.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4cqQI6MZjk
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From about ten minutes onwards
@ OA
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Thx for clarifying that. I had been contemplating send ing Ganon against someone that had a magic-destroying weapon, so that’s why I asked.
The patient went on without stopping, “Then he began to whisper. ‘Rats, rats, rats! Hundreds, thousands, millions of them, and every one a life. And dogs to eat them, and cats too. All lives! All red blood, with years of life in it, and not merely buzzing flies!’ I laughed at him, for I wanted to see what he could do. Then the dogs howled, away beyond the dark trees in His house. He beckoned me to the window. I got up and looked out, and He raised his hands, and seemed to call out without using any words. A dark mass spread over the grass, coming on like the shape of a flame of fire. And then He moved the mist to the right and left, and I could see that there were thousands of rats with their eyes blazing red, like His only smaller. He held up his hand, and they all stopped, and I thought he seemed to be saying, ‘All these lives will I give you, ay, and many more and greater, through countless ages, if you will fall down and worship me!’ And then a red cloud, like the colour of blood, seemed to close over my eyes, and before I knew what I was doing, I found myself opening the sash and saying to Him, ‘Come in, Lord and Master!’ The rats were all gone, but He slid into the room through the sash, though it was only open an inch wide, just as the Moon herself has often come in through the tiniest crack and has stood before me in all her size and splendour.”
He had to come out of the mist to struggle with me. I held tight, and I thought I was going to win, for I didn’t mean Him to take any more of her life, till I saw His eyes. They burned into me, and my strength became like water. He slipped through it, and when I tried to cling to Him, He raised me up and flung me down. There was a red cloud before me, and a noise like thunder, and the mist seemed to steal away under the door.”
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So he has some form of TK
Offtopic but i did request a match between Link and Ganon vs Alucard and Dracula i think.
That will be iffy without specification, cuz Ganon is EXTREMELY hard to put down, and working in tandem with Link (the guy that is one of the only people so far in FP equipped to kill him), they’re going to be one tough team to take down.
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Although I’d kinda like to see a match between Cloud Strife vs Ganon (possibly composite Ganon if it makes the fight more interesting)
I know this may be off…OriginalA, you may already know this, but there’s a prequel manga to Skyward Sword and I manage to find a website with a few translated scans. It may have some feats.
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www.zelda-sanctuary.net/legend-of-zelda-news/zelda-merchandise/skyward-sword-prequel-translated/
@Marcel at #595
It could be interesting, to say the least.
Aren’t we waiting on Cold Days to see whether or not Dresden vs Ganondorf’s gonna be a fair fight, after all?
Meantime, back to matter at hand.
@Alpha or Omega
I’ll have a look at the manga scans thus far, if that helps.
“Aren’t we waiting on Cold Days to see whether or not Dresden vs Ganondorf’s gonna be a fair fight, after all?”
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When does that book come out? I was looking forward to getting into that match. TP is a beasty Ganon to say the least, and a composite Ganon would be even scarier (but he doesn’t have the ToP in that one).
I hope it gets posted soon,that match will be epic.
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As for this one, the Dracula novel is so long winded its hard to sift through and find feats for Dracula.
“As for this one, the Dracula novel is so long winded its hard to sift through and find feats for Dracula.”
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Take your time, no rush here. I will have to sit a good deal of this match out unfortunately cuz I have not played SS yet. Once I do though, I plan on enhancing a lot of future debates (unless I make an error in lore, but that’s what the encyclopedia OA is for!)