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Who do you think would win if Thanos was to meet Dr. Doom?
Both Marvel villains would have time to prepare for the takeover of each others realm.
Thanos has death at his side, while Doom has his demons he deals with.
All versions of them are game.
Thanos could have the infinity gauntlet, but then doom could have the beyonders powers he was able to overtake.
Who wins?
“They even say in the comic he has omnipotence. It doesn’t matter if it commits a logical fallacy”
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Hyperbole
@sorrow
I understand that thanks, but what i’m concerned about isn’t so much the time as the capabilities. Correct me if i’m wrong, but the way I albeit shakily understand it is that the retcon didn’t strip or alter his stated abilities, just revealed the bigger picture. I hope that makes sense as to why I believe the beyonder is not as “strong” as pre retcon beyonder…. God trying to convey this is haphazard.
@Primus
Yeah I understand the message you are trying to convey. The whole omnipotence term is weird when talking about Marvel.
I wonder if they’ll ever bring in the Celestials? Better yet, have the X-Men take on Sentinels on the silver screen.
That would be something interesting to behold. I mean since they revealed Thanos in the Avengers, it’s a possibility, but I have my doubts.
@sorrow
So if the character was the same and nothing was altered except the realization of his own limited abilities, was he omnipotent to begin with? It could be argued that the omnipotence claims could have arisen by this false understanding of his potential/place in the multiverse.
The celestially are Thor characters right? That seems interesting but as I recall, there’s a lot of celestials. And sentinels have been featured in Xmen movies. It was more like a slap in the face though. They were stupid simulations in the danger room in Xmen the last stand I believe. Remember? You memberrr.
Hell, it would make a funny Stan Lee cameo. He could be some old guy taking a nap on his lawn while Exitar the Executioner Descends ominously down to the earth.
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Don’t remind me of that Sentinel “homage” it was a disgrace.
@Primus
Perhaps, it might be that the retcon was a way to define what “omnipotence” actually is.
So….where are we now?
The Destroyer was in fact built to FIGHT the Celestials, not guard some dumpy treasure room. That thing fucked shit up; it took on whole pantheons of Gods!
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The Thor movie did it absolutely zero justice.
“So….where are we now?”
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Debating whether or not the Beyonder was truly omnipotent pre-retcon.
Wasn’t it stated in a comic itself or by one of the Marvel cosmics that he was the most powerful being in their universe short of TOAA?
@ss
True but the retcon nerfed him not in a sense of his abilities but rather he realized he wasn’t as Badass as he thought he was lol
Lol glut. And I wasn’t to happy with the Thor movie either.
Excelsior
“True but the retcon nerfed him not in a sense of his abilities but rather he realized he wasn’t as Badass as he thought he was lol”
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Doom’s incarnation here absorbed the powers of the Pre-Retcon Beyonder.
It had its innaccuracies, I cannot deny. But the Destroyer actually kinda pissed me off. And Odin was way too weaksauce there.
_
Personally, my fingers are crossed for an appearance for Beta Ray Bill.
@ss
I understand that and i’m not denying it in the least. What i’m concerned with is the beyonder’s power level pre retcon. He’s the same character prior and post retcon, with no powers gained, lost, or altered.the only change is the realization of others at a higher tier, so to speak. If the feats are of different levels of course toys creates a separate issue, but when doom absorbed him was he REALLY omnipotent, or just considered due to a limited scope.
Example: nation on an island doesn’t know the outside world exists. The king is the absolute ruler of the world. Suddenly this island realizes it’s not all there is.nothing has changed but the perception that there are greater and weaker nations. hope it makes sense
Ugh
toys = this
King knows of weaker nations, none greater pre revelation.
God I need a laptop lol
I agree and beta ray bill would be really interesting to see on the big screen. Unfortunately… Wouldn’t that be something a bit further down the cinematic road? The enchantress might be a logical next step. Then again I don’t really know Thor that good.
Without the Destroyer, It would be hard to feasibly introduce the Celestials. My guess is that Loki somehow breaks free and gets Surtr (the King of Muspelheim, realm of the Fire Giants) who is a pretty big enemy of Thor’s, involved. But, the Enchantress would also be plausible.
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Its a shame that they’ve used the Chitauri, because now it would be very hard to bring in the Skrulls. I think Ultron would be an interesting villain for the Avengers though.
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I’d love to see what their take on BRB would look like. It would be tough to get a proper voice coming out of that horse mouth of his.
Surtur would be cool. He’s the devil-like guy yah? That sounds kick ass.
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Ultron would be AWESOME. And with the possible ant man movie coming soon, it would be perfect.
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The chitauri, from what I’ve heard, are this continuity’s skrulls. The (sucky) version. It’s possible they’re out.
-BRB and all the Thor stuff they gotta be careful with. Remember green lantern? Cgi mess. Gotta keep it sorta grounded in some reality. But just brb meeting up with Thor and blah blah blah, they could do that. Horse mouth. Heh
“Hyperbole”
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No, it is NOT hyperbole. I clearly posted a scan of all powerful cosmics, INCLUDING the LT, begging Beyonder not to kill death. This shows at least that the LT can’t control Beyonder’s actions.
“And with the possible ant man movie coming soon, it would be perfect.”
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No one can possible take a superhero called “Ant man” seriously.
“BRB and all the Thor stuff they gotta be careful with.”
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Speaking of stuff that we want to happen in movies, I wanted Kevin Conroy to actually play Batman in the Nolan films. HE is, and always has been, the voice of Batman. They could have died his hair black, and then done a “Dark Knight Returns” kind of story, which would have explained Conroy being 55-ish. I have a few criticisms of the Nolan films.
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Overall, they’re very good, but the ending to the first one, the “I won’t kill you but that doesn’t mean I have to save you” left a bad taste in my mouth. Given the chance, Batman will not hesitate to save even a criminal, so that they can meet justice. Case in point- he’s saved the Joker numerous times, one time even giving him CPR, and he saved a reformed Riddler from a serial killer.
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The second criticism is the absolutely ABSURD voice that Christian Bale speaks in as Batman. Kevin Conroy was the one who pioneered two separate voices for Batman and Bruce Wayne, and he’s the one who does it right. Christian Bale’s voice sounds comical, and it’s really hard to take the movies seriously when he speaks like that.
|:)
Nonetheless sorrow, it would still be a route to ultron.
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COMING SOON:
ANT -MAN
To save the world, we dont need an IRON MAN, we need a shrinking/growing scientist who can Control insects.
ANT-MAN
Coming soon to theaters.
If you want an awesome action movie, you
Picked the wrong movie.
Ant man is Actually a pretty cool character. Well, hank pym is. He does have a fanbase.
Maybe if they introduced Ant-Man and then immediately killed him off when Ultron appears.
Crusader how dare you! C. Bale’s take, while comical at times, is awesome. For the sole purpose that every youtuber can do a parody with that voice and draw it way out of proportion and make me laugh out loud. But I respect you for wanting to stay true to good batman stuff.
SWEAR TO ME! XD Gets me every time.
Sorrow, we can dream. But no ultron w/o pym. Sorry. He ends up finding the solution in the end. Naturally, since he created ultron.
“Sorrow, we can dream. But no ultron w/o pym. Sorry. He ends up finding the solution in the end. Naturally, since he created ultron”
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Awww come on I’m sure the writers can bullshit their way by making up another resolution without Ant-Man
Ok ant man movie plot: ant man makes ultron. Ultron goes nuts. Kills pym. But he’s pym’s clone. XD the real pym comes out 20 stories tall, kills all the ultrons by belly flopping on their army and letting off an isolated bomb killing him, wasp, and the ultrons. But he was a clone too. Pym comes out of a hole in a third world country, goes “what the fuck?” and joins the avengers as the chef. Satisfied?? Im not. Needs more cowbell.
Ayeayeaye!
XD
Wow! I just got off of work, puttin in that overtime! I logged on just now and see that this fight reached 100 posts already?! Noice. My son is all for Thanos but I believe Doom takes this fight with prep. With his ability to craft devices or mystical knowledge of the sorcery hes been shown to display, I see Thanos has him listed as a threat in the past for a reason! My personal thoughts on Thanos’s contingency for Doom, is just that… a contingency..or hope that whatever he has planned for Doom will work. History has shown that Doom knows how to overtake and conquer omnipotence! Look at what happened to Galactus, The Silver Surfer, the Beyonder!(In Marvel Beyonders basically god-like).
Worst case, I say Doom just messes with Thanos’s mind cause if I remember Thanos is his own weakness(which my son hates) Doom would just will him or talk him to lose cause thats what Thanos wants..
@madmax
Yeah that’s what happens when they make villain who acquires omnipotence. They have to make up some contrived bullshit to beat him.
I recommend reading “Doom War”( by Jonathan Maberry), or “Doom”(by Chuck Dixon). Both Graphic novels are great books displaying Dooms tech, and the other focusing on doom’s prowess with sorcery… awesome stories
@TheSorrow
Hah! Yea right? Isn’t that the case? Every story needs some kind of ending? I’mm sure the writers of the time were like “Ok guys ummmm…how are we gonna end this story again?!” LOL..
The writers kind of backed themselves into a corner. “Fuck… we kind of screwed ourselves over with Heart of the Universe plot.”
I’m noticing that a large amount of retardation is going on here in relation to how powerful Beyonder was Pre-retcon.
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In the Marvel universe there is no Pre-retcon Beyonder, they are the same character, everyone he beat was just jobbing to him. Doom absorbed his powers at one point yes, however because of the retcon anyone who Doom beat using those powers, was also Jobbing.
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Thanos w. HoTU>Doom w. Beyonder powers.
“Thanos w. HoTU>Doom w. Beyonder powers.”
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He doesn’t have that, just the Infinity Gauntlet.
Yeah I know, just pointing that out.
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Although, how much power does the IG give him again?
@Darth
There is no retardation to clearly explain non trolling opinions based on logic, but I understand where you are coming from. Especially when you are stating what I have already proposed. Lol
@sorrow
So we will assume that we will interpret the scenario to cap thanos at the IG? I was unclear especially with the “all versions on play” statement. Thanks in advance
According to the scenario above Thanos does have the heart of universe here do he stomps
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“I’m noticing that a large amount of retardation is going on here in relation to how powerful Beyonder was Pre-retcon.”
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Finally someone with common sense.
“So we will assume that we will interpret the scenario to cap thanos at the IG? I was unclear especially with the “all versions on play” statement. Thanks in advance”
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Yeah because if we gave Thanos the Heart of the Universe it would just be ridiculous.
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“According to the scenario above Thanos does have the heart of universe here do he stomps”
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It says the Infinity Gauntlet not the Heart.
“It says the Infinity Gauntlet not the Heart.”
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Doesn’t really matter either way. If we take out Thanos’ CIS of ‘wanting to lose’ then Thanos with IG stomps anyway.
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I liked the Thor movie. It wasn’t perfect by any means, but it was still good.
“Thanos could have the infinity gauntlet, but then doom could have the beyonders powers he was able to overtake.”
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“It says the Infinity Gauntlet not the Heart.”
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No, that was a suggestion.. Go back and read the scenario. He clearly says COULD…
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“All versions of them are game.”
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^meaning thanos has the heart of the universe
“No, that was a suggestion.. Go back and read the scenario. He clearly says COULD…”
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The point was to give Doom a fighting chance. NOT to make this a stomp which so badly seem to want.
“The point was to give Doom a fighting chance. NOT to make this a stomp which so badly seem to want.”
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If he wanted to give doom a fighting chance than Ge would’ve excluded Thanos/HOTU but no he didn’t. Instead he said ““All versions of them are game.” which means thanos/HOTU is included
There is a reason why he mentioned the Infinity Gauntlet and not the HOTU.
“There is a reason why he mentioned the Infinity Gauntlet and not the HOTU.”
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Not really,Common mistake since thanos is known for wielding the IG more than HOTU..
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Thanos/HOTU for the FP award
It’s called logical reasoning. It’s kind of stupid to give one person the same abilities as TOAA.
It would take more than a belly flop to defeat Ultron, lawl. His armor is Adamantium if memory serves.
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The Green Lantern movie crushed me, since GL has been my favorite DC franchise.
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As for Batman’s voice….If the honest to god real batman appeared in front of me in a dark alleyway in a threatening manner, then talked to me in that voice; I’d laugh like an idiot until he started whaling on me.
“In the Marvel universe there is no Pre-retcon Beyonder, they are the same character, everyone he beat was just jobbing to him. Doom absorbed his powers at one point yes, however because of the retcon anyone who Doom beat using those powers, was also Jobbing.”
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What? What does this mean? Are you suggesting that the guy who pwned EVERYONE, and that no-one had a chance against, was all along an incomplete Cosmic Cube?
Oh, and what does “jobbing” mean? I looked it up and it apparently means “working occasionally at separate short jobs”.
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I have shown, through on panel feats, that Pre-Retcon Beyonder > LT.
@black Crusader post # 153
That’s pretty much the truth. The beyonder discovers he doesn’t have that level of power. Nothing in his powerset changes, only his awareness of where he ranks, so to speak.
post # 154
The pre retcon beyonder was ASSUMED to have been that strong, but they could have been playing along. the LT has the power to rez death even if the beyonder had killed it/her. The narrator stating that may have been because the narrator believed it. There is nothing denying this and it ties the two sides together. I left an example( post # 119) I believe works as an analogy. Beyonder is strong don’t get me wrong, but if NOTHING changed for the character due to the retcon, that’s what he was prior as well as post retcon. He never was that strong, and the feats are only applicable if he wasn’t being assisted. Sucks because he’s still badass imo.
@Sorrow & Chuck.
This was my confusion over the scenario to begin with. It is somewhat contradictory. I think we may as well just acknowledge hotu stomps and therefore debate beyonder-doom vs IG Thanos. What say you?
“I think we may as well just acknowledge hotu stomps and therefore debate beyonder-doom vs IG Thanos. What say you?”
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That’s the scenario I have been trying to avoid because it makes the debate effectively pointless to include the HOTU.
@SORROW
I concur. so we need Thanos supporters to provide scans. Crusader’s been kind enough for Victor’s team
Jobbing is a term used to describe a character losing to someone who they clearly shouldn’t.
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People like Captain America could be said to have a “Jobber Aura”, which means people seem to like losing to them.
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On the topic of Beyonder.
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This whole Pre-retcon thing only applies in fictional Versus debates.
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The term was invented so that there could be a distinction between classic all powerful Beyonder and the current one.
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However, just because the term exists doesn’t mean it overrides Marvel Canon. In Marvel canon, the Beyonder is a cosmic cube that gains sentience.
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The reason he could lolstomp the other cosmics was simply because they let him, to “ease his transition into sentience”.
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What this means in terms of Doom’s power absorption is that While it does grant him the powers of a Cosmic cube level being, it does not grant him the powers of “Pre-retcon” Beyonder.
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TL;DR. There is only one version of the Beyonder in Marvel canon and he is not currently all powerful.
Dr. Doom is a 6 on the Marvel power grid. Thanos is a 7. Thanos is smarter.
Or I’m wrong. So wrongly wrong.
Jobbing is a term used to describe a character losing to someone who they clearly shouldn’t.
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People like Captain America could be said to have a “Jobber Aura”, which means people seem to like losing to them.
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Wrestling Terminology. In a topic featuring the Beyonder. Who did wrestle in a comic.
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So funny how things connect.
“What this means in terms of Doom’s power absorption is that While it does grant him the powers of a Cosmic cube level being, it does not grant him the powers of “Pre-retcon” Beyonder.”
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But didn’t he explicitly take his power from around that time period rendering him practically the Pre-Retcon Beyonder?
@ss
Yes, but nothing actually CHANGED. Pre retcon beyonder IS post retcon beyonder
Ok I submit to what my son says because we cant agree either. For the record this is not a stomp, we stand by as a draw if it helps the fanboys from both sides? lol
May I ask how old your son is?
Hes pretty smart for a thirteen year old, he likes his factpile lol..
You should ground him for disagreeing with you. Haha but in all seriousness, does he have an account as well?
“But didn’t he explicitly take his power from around that time period rendering him practically the Pre-Retcon Beyonder?”
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What PxP said.
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In terms of Marvel Canon there IS only one Beyonder, that being Post-Retcon. In terms of Fictional Versus debates and the Marvel fan community, however, there are two, Pre and Post-Retcon.
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For the purposes of determining how strong the Beyonder was a t any one time, we have to go by Marvels view unless otherwise stated.
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Of course the easy solution is to simply state somewhere in the match that he is Pre/Post-retcon Beyonder.
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Since no-one did we have to go with current Incarnation, which is Post-retcon.
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What this all boils down to is that Doom didn’t absorb the powers of Pre-Retcon Beyonder, he absorbed the powers of Beyonder, who is currently a cube being.
Oh… current incarnation. Okay never mind Thanos wins.
I don’t even know how this is a debate. Thanos would rip Doom in half. With DEATH at his side??????? Why give him the one thing that’s going to MOTIVATE him more than anything to obliterate Doom in the showiest, most painful way imaginable?? You KNOW Thanos would do anything for Mistress Death. This would be a poor (but expected) move on Doom’s part.
“All versions of them are game.”
meaning current incantation is out the window.
people keep saying thanos is smarter than doom, but ive yet to see a shred of proof or even and example stated.
with these too at their peaks, death is small potatoes.
@SS
Where were you on factpile as of late?
You probably heard the news regarding Harry Dresden having bested Kratos in kombat, right?
So care to see more on the current match at hand?
“People keep saying Thanos is smarter than Doom…”
Perhaps they mean in terms of raw knowledge because, I dunno, Thanos has traveled the cosmos?
“people keep saying thanos is smarter than doom, but ive yet to see a shred of proof or even and example stated”
Marvel says so? Proof enough?
i just came back, been gone a while. may pop in and out a bit.
@the geek lord
i dont think that equals smarter especially when you take into account that doom has traveled both times and alternate universes
@razgul
link? evidence?
“@razgul
link? evidence?”
Doom: marvel.com/universe/Dr._Doom
Thanos: marvel.com/universe/Thanos
Happy?
have to check it out more thoroughly after work bu ta quick scan didnt even show a mention of it
Doom has a history of overestimating himself and a battle like this is just another example. It doesn’t matter if he has the power of the Beyonder; I’m pretty sure Thanos obliterated the Beyonder on one of his killing sprees.
@Sorrow
Thanos also has the Heart of the Universe at his peak which draws power from the One Above All, yeah, Thanos owns Dr Doom, even with the Pre-Retcon Beyonder’s powers
Oops not Soow, I mean Geek Lord =S
mean’t this fight Stealth
www.factpile.com/6813-darkseid-vs-thanos/#comment-383593
Thanos wins. Quite handily.