Suggested by EnigmaJ
This battle pits two fantasy realms against one another: Lord of the Rings and World of WarCraft. For the sake of a discussion, this fight will be split into three different parts.
The “Gods”: Anybody who can change the shape of the world in less than a day.
The “Mortal Plane”: Includes all of the groups and organization that currently exist in these universes; however any single individual who qualifies for the God battle and organizations whose numbers are effectively limitless at any given moment are excluded.
The “Name Characters”: Includes only characters who’ve been given some name or personal title in the series. Any character who qualifies for the God Battle is excluded.
What would happen?
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It looks a lot like anything can happen, methinks.
Umm, does Warcraft have anyone who can stand up to Illuvatar in the God battle? Because if not LotR takes that.
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Warcraft probably takes the other two, though. Way, way more magic, other planets, etc.
Warcraft definitely loses the first scenario.
Ugh…Urge to rant almost unbearable.
LotR takes the God battle, Warcraft takes the other two in a vicious stomp.
” LotR takes the God battle, Warcraft takes the other two in a vicious stomp.”
^ this
By “change the shape of the world”, what do you mean? Island scale, mountain, continent, etc? Also, are you people taking into account the armies for the second scenario? Have you heard of Anfauglith? It’s hundreds of square miles. Morgoth’s army was too big to fit there. Can I get some numbers for WoW? But I do agree that Tolkien loses the third scenario. Actually, there are some pretty powerful, non-god-level people on Tolkien’s side. Angcalagon, for instance. Also, I’m guessing characters that never made it into LotR, the Hobbit, or the Silmarillion don’t count, not that it matters? Meaning people in HoME.
@epicazeroth
I understand that but the fundamental problem with this match is it puts hyperbole and vague book characters with little flesh versus a hugely detailed world of books and games. Yeah Melkor had a huge ass army but WHEN is this match taking place? Current incarnation? Then no army of that level sadly. I think silmarillion should be allowed with other books, just maybe not from letters or drafts. Another thing is wow fodder level with characters, giving them feats comparable with name LotR characters.
Side note: Tom Bombadil FTW lol
See, the problem for me is trying to figure out who does and doesn’t qualify for the god battle from WoW….
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Bets on WoW though. Much more magic use in my knowledge, and from what ive seen, probably more powerful.
“By “change the shape of the world”, what do you mean? Island scale, mountain, continent, etc?”
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At the moment… let’s go with…
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Planetary. Those who can wreak destruction across the entire surface, OR make the world completely unrecognizable through some other ability.
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If you’re concerned with this, just let me know.
so by changing the world you mean that DW is added to gods for starters, seems like he is gonna get raped in that department since i only hear how ultimate LOTR gods are.
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just a question. how powerfull where lotr gods again? i only know that titans and sargeras and the like might put up a fight. if LOTR side really are that powerfull i am not gonna argue about it btw.
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and for what i know of LOTR, Warcraft stomps the others. so probably 1 for LOTR, 2 for Warcraft.
“just a question. how powerfull where lotr gods again? ”
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They have an omnipotent creator God, Illuvitar (or Eru), and then all of the lesser gods are lesser in power, but still close to the planetary scale (IIRC). At the very least, LOTR has the number advantage in gods.
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But aside from the gods, LOTR ain’t got squat.
@nick
lotr has an overdeity In Eru, basically the judeochristian “God”, with the standard omnis, then the valar are gods that when they fight rearrange tectonic plates and the like, create life (dwarves), molecular manipulation (creating crap), near omniscience (think D&D portfolios) and can shape shift at will. They would, to coin a new term for me, “baby shake” balrogs, as they are lesser deities
“create life (dwarves)”
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Actually, the Valar cannot create life, only Eru can. They can give form to that life, but only the Illuvitar can create it. That’s why Melkor had to corrupt the elves into orcs, instead of creating new beings.
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Also, WHY DO PEOPLE STILL INSIST ON PUTTING LOTR IN FIGHTS. It’s far too vague, few real feats are given, and there isn’t a real basis for comparison. I love LotR as much as the next fantasy fan, but they are nigh impossible to debate for.
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Sorry for the rant.
I too think that Ilúvatar seems to be the mightiest of the gods, but then again, all of the titans, which created Azeroth and all that stuff, had a hard time against 5 “Old gods” (Yeah, blizzard also copied from H.P. Lovecraft
) whom they bareley banished, and who still take influence on reality. It’s hard to measure their powers… But as said before I still tend to give LotR that win (since Tolkien copied so nicely from North mythology)
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The other two: +1 stomp for Warcraft
@harbinger
True but if I recall correctly and forgive if i’m wrong that one god (forgot his name) made them, eru said destroy them, then eru stopped him midswing, stating that the dwarves viewing had the spark necessary or something to that effect. Again apologies if my memory had failed me, but want the fact they weren’t created with the music why they fight with elves? And also why they had to sleep and only resurfaced after eru’s “firstborn” elves popped up? Very Abraham and Isaac, then elves = Israelites lol.
@helion
True but none created EVERYTHING including other gods like Eru. He Solos round one, lotr get stomped the other two
,,Bets on WoW though. Much more magic use in my knowledge, and from what ive seen, probably more powerful.”
Well it’s debatable, but there is much magic that nobody remembers when talking about Lotr. References about evil sorcery practiced by Hill-men of Rhudaur, Black Numenoreans (and wizardry practiced by Numenoreans overall), magic users like Beorn, Malbeth the Seer, Mouth of Sauron, queen Beruthiel are only examples of the human race from the good and evil side of spectrum. Elves as a whole race had many tricks clearly magical, like Wood elves enchantments in Mirkwood that cast sleep over other beings, ward off evil creatures like Giant Spiders, and lighting or putting out fires in the matter of seconds, magical door of Thranduil halls (which open and close at will of the elvenking). High elves, which are powerful thanks to their contact with divine beings, have telepathy, ability to cast illusions, shapeshifting (Elwing changing into swan to be with Earendil), songs of power allowed to magically express and enforce will over others (Finrod Felagund duel with Sauron, he lost this one) great crafting abilities which allowed to make weapons hallowed against evil creatures, like swords of Noldor, with incredible sharpness (piercing web of darkness of Shelob, and trolls hide that usual steel could not) and with ability to glow in presence of orcs, lots of objects with magical properties: from simple cloaks changing colour and making practically invisible to powerful Rings of Power that manipulate time, and forces of nature protecting from decay, healing, giving knowledge and understanding. Even dwarves have some magic abilities often associated with runes (,,runes of power upon the door”, ,,runes of victory” on dragon helm, made by Telchar). Objects like Elessar (healing powers), palantirs (communication of thoughts and scrying), Mirror of Galadriel (showing future, past and present), daggers of Westernesse (Numenor) with ,,spells for the bane of Mordor” harming wraiths, Gurthang black sword cutting through steel with ease (and with evil sentient in it), sheath of Anduril which protected sword from breaking (gift from Galadriel), silver horn made by dwarves from the hoard of Scatha the Worm (dragon from Grey Mountains) called Horn of the Mark (magically calls for aid, and struck enemies with fear), any dwarf doors opening at command or under right circumstances, moon letters visible only under the light of moon (sometimes in correct phase as it was during writing), Narsil/Anduril which glowed with the light of sun and moon (sometimes with inner ,,flame” during the fight as if responding to the emotions of the wielder, and sharp enough to cut steel helmet in half), enchanted battering ram Grond with ,,spells of ruin” (and blasting spell of Witch-king which together destroyed massive steel doors of Minas Tirith), stone statues of Druedain which came alive and fought protecting places where they stood, Seat of Seeing at Amon Hen which allows to see at far distances and Seat of Hearing at Amon Lhaw, indestructible magical black stone-like substance of which were made Orthanc and outer wall of Minas Tirith (work of the Numenoreans), Black Arrow which killed Smaug and staves of lebethron wood (both returning to it’s possessor when being lost,
,,They are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor, and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning. May that virtue not wholly fail under the Shadow into which you go!’” staves were a gift of Faramir to Frodo and Sam, arrow was inherited by Bard from Girion and was made by dwarves), Phial of Galadriel, box of dirt from Galadriel garden with blessings, and other things. There is magic possessed by dragons (controlling minds, paralyzing, memory wiping, possibly casting curses over their hoard), Barrow Wights which cause trance like state resembling death, necromantic practices often involving possession by evil spirits.
@PrimusxPilus
“True but none created EVERYTHING including other gods like Eru. He Solos round one”
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I won’t resist, I won’t resist, Eru takes this!
Hmmm… but then again, regarding your earlyer side note: Did he really create Tom Bombadil? (Yeah, him for the win ^^)
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@fantasywind
There is much magic in LotR too, I agree with that, but I too think WoW has a fair amount more of it. In WoW you have stuff like the blue dragon aspect, the guardian high lvl casters like Rhonin, Krasus, Thrall, Jaina, and even the dumbest novice tauren warrior is able to learn enchanting, and can give a beer mug +1 damage
There is much magic in LotR too, I agree with that, but I too think WoW has a fair amount more of it. In WoW you have stuff like the blue dragon aspect, the guardian high lvl casters like Rhonin, Krasus, Thrall, Jaina, and even the dumbest novice tauren warrior is able to learn enchanting, and can give a beer mug +1 damage
Well it’s the matter of heroes then, we have some strong characters which we could use: Galadriel controlled weather in her realm and destroyed Dol Guldur.
Hey! I suggested almost the exact same as the first part!
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@PxP: Whaaa… How did I say anything related to that? And you think Tolkien’s world isn’t detailed? I’m sorry for you. Also, aren’t universe battles usually composite, unless I’m mistaken? (@everyone: Am I?)
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@Nuredhelion: The Aspects would be “Gods”, I think.
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Wait, planetary scale? Then the Maiar aren’t in the first situation, but the second… That’s bad for WoW.
@Enigma: Is this composite universes?
@fantasywind
Well since the aspects (except Deathwing) aren’t in the god-section i think there are some allmost godlike badass casters as well, and if you consider the powers of Arthas, Valen, Malfurion & Illidan Stormrage, Tyrande Whisperwind, Thrall, Ghul’Dan, the former guardians (except medivh, I tend to count him to the “god” section…) and many more you have plenty of worthy enemies for Galadriel (and don’t forget, the weather controlling thing is standard to shamans and druids *g*)
@epicazeroth
Hmmm on a fast guess I would count the Lich King, Archimonde the aspects and some other beeings on par with the Maiar…
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And don’t forget Leroy ^^
@epicazeroth
Post # 7
You were talking about the Morgoth army being massive, and I stated that 1) armies aren’t that big by the end of the books, and 2) wow fodder has some crazy abilities as you get into the higher levels, since they scale with players. (I assume we’re doing both game and the novels. Please correct me if I’m wrong)
And yes Tolkein did go into some detail but not at the level of WoW and other settings so WoW could very well pull something out of their asses like “Here’s Sargaras’ grandfather shitting out a multiverse lulz”. I know little about WoW so that may be extreme (funny though imo) but Tolkein did use just enough vagaries to make his middle earth history sound mythic.
Also as far as I know unless specified it’s current incarnation and not at maximum power, which would be at the end of the Return of the King novel correct? Aragorn chilling in Gondor ruling pretty much the known world? Sadly it’s been years since I’ve read the books so epic it’s going to be up to you to carry the mantle of defender of the lotr lol.
Eh …. LotR takes the God-level … the Named Character level … LotR picks up some here, but I think that Warcraft has more top-end non-god-level beings available.
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As for the Mortal Plane … it depends, I think, on where the Maiar in general wind up ranking. If they don’t get placed in the God-level, and I don’t think they should, the hosts of Valinor should be able to steamroller just about everything Warcraft can field combined, especially since basically all the elves are included, who, in conjunction with all the humans, dwarves, etc of whatever timeframe(s) this is being pulled from can be fielded to free up those from Valinor to pound on the tougher Warcraft foes that they can’t handle.
@epicazeroth
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Sorry, I could have sworn I mentioned it in the OP…
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The “heroes”/”named characters” battle is composite. Deceased characters can be used for that one.
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The “mortal plane” battle, however, is current incarnation.
@kytheros
true forgot about Valinor and all those elves that have insane magic AND have been prepping for their Ragnorak for the better part of an age lol. They just have to compete with Infernals and felhounds/other crap.
*imagines a balrog vs. infernal*
Warcraft Mortal plane… we talking Azeroth only? Because the Burning Legion, last I checked, has literally an endless supply of powerful demons for the front lines.
LOTR might be able to hit somewhat hard in the named characters battle, but I think WoW would take it in the end. The problem is that LOTR “magic” is really subtle. People aren’t creating powerful items or destructive forces out of nothing; the closest comparison I think would be the shamanism of the orcs in warcraft, communicating with the spirits within the world, or dominating them, depending on whether we’re talking good or evil guys. fantasywind listed a lot of feats, but that was too much a blob of text for me to get through, and as impressive as they are, I understand WoW to have a lot of stuff that makes that look like child’s play.
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LOTR is too slow and subtle. WoW will destroy them in all but the Gods battle.
“Deceased characters can be used for that one.”
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There many versions of the Lich King.
Which one are we using?
Most recent incarnation for all characters.
Gods, would, I think, be all the Valar, Morgoth, and Osse. Maybe a few others, like maybe Arien. The names, well, small groups of First Age Elves (fodder) crushed armies with no losses (when exposed to the Light), and the FA Names do that with no boosts.
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@anybody at all: Think of the best fighter in Tolkien (no magic, I mean in martial abilities.) Who is it? Seriously, tell me, I have to know before I say anything.
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@CMEPT: I can give feats for LotR later (no time at all now.)
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@Razgul: Nobody with unlimited forces.
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I think the Maiar would count for the Mortal Plane, as they still exist (unless you mean just ME and Azeroth, Engima), so there’s that (unless I’m wrong.)
“Who is it? Seriously, tell me, I have to know before I say anything.”
Glorfindel? Turin Turambar? Hurin Thalion? Probably a few more Elves I’m overlooking. Could be any of them.
““Who is it? Seriously, tell me, I have to know before I say anything.”
Glorfindel? Turin Turambar? Hurin Thalion? Probably a few more Elves I’m overlooking. Could be any of them.”
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This is why I hate debating LotR. It’s so hard to tell who’s better at anything because it’s so subtly implied and vague. If I had to guess the best fighter I’d say: Ar-Pharazon, Aragorn, Turin, Elendil, or Earendil. Power-wise, it’s a different story. The most powerful amongst the “mortals” would probably be: Glorfindel (defeated a balrog, died in the process, and came back to life (before it was cool), and has scared nazgul, including the witch king on several occasions), Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, Celeborn, Cirdan, and Ecthelion (killed 3 balrogs, including Gothmog, the leader of the balrogs).
“@Razgul: Nobody with unlimited forces.”
Wait, so the Burning Legion gets NO representation in match 2?
“Wait, so the Burning Legion gets NO representation in match 2?”
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Depends on whether the Burning Legion forces are “unlimited” or just “really large”.
I dont think the big WoW villians are all that tough, they get their buts kicked on a weekly basis by 10 to 25 people easily.
So the lotr gods win scenario #1
Scenario #2 goes to WoW even though the population is only in the millions nobody stays dead for long.
Scenario #3 goes to WoW again, all of the WoW faction leaders have billions of hit points I doubt any lotr character can boast that.
@anybody at all: Think of the best fighter in Tolkien (no magic, I mean in martial abilities.) Who is it? Seriously, tell me, I have to know before I say anything.
). Anyway the strongest Numenorean warriors could be Elendil, Elros and those early kings before Ar-Pharazon. Even diminished they were formidable, 30 Dunedains from the North during War of the Ring were the best warriors fighting in Gondor, right after them pure blooded families from Gondor like Prince of Dol Amroth, house of stewards (House of Hurin, but the different one). Oh, and not forget Elrond with his sons Elladan and Elrohir (they were half-elves, well part elves, but they could choose which race they want belong to). Elladan and Elrohir didn’t have elvish trait of long ranged sight, but still have many abilities of elves.
According to sources we have, Turin and his father Hurin were the most powerful warriors of the mortal race (humans without magic, but occasionally they used artifacts like Dragon-helm of Dor-Lomin, and Gurthang, sword made by Eol Dark Elf from ,,fallen star”). Among the elves most powerful from Noldor was Feanor (Fingolfin, Finrod and Galadriel slightly weaker but on similar level), from Vanyar (most beautiful, tallest, gold haired elves, and the strongest of the whole race) Ingwe High King of Elves (he was considered the wisest, and king of ALL elves), from Teleri (Sindar) Elwe (or Thingol Greymantle, husband of Melian, powerful Maia, and father of Luthien), right behind him was only Cirdan Shipwright (friend with Osse, servant of Ulmo). Vanyar besides War of Wrath, hardly ever leave Aman (they were favourites of Manwe, masters in crafting spears), Teleri, most numerous (and divided on different subgroups) were sailors, but their leader Thingol was great warrior, and were known for making the best bows, Noldor were highly civilized and intelligent, and fierce fighters that could match with divine beings of lesser power (they actually are resposible for creating civilization, building big cities, keepers of knowledge, crafting items, all science that could be applied to elves, and makers of the best swords), dwarves vary in martial prowess, I would say they are somewhere between humans and elves, they certainly are stronger than most humans (if they could in heavy armor with supplies run all the damn way from Iron Hills to Erebor), but not as fast and agile as elves (and certainly not the best archers), strongest of the race of dwarves were probably all descendants of Seven Fathers, but we didn’t see much of them in battle (except for Gimli, Thorin, Dain from Durin’s House, and Azaghal lord of Belegost who went one on one with Glaurung and when was dying, crushed by dragon’s belly, stabbed him so deep that Glaurung retreated from battle). Human of later ages would be considerably weaker if there were not any Numenoreans (they were blessed by the Valar, so they became stronger, faster taller than any other humans, 3 times longer-lived as it was normal for the mortals, immune to all diseases, unless tainted by shadow), from the Numenoreans the strongest were descendants of the line of Elros (part elves, from the side of both parents, Earendil and Elwing, Tolkien invented all genealogy of this bloodline, from human and elven ancestors from First Age, through every single one king of Numenor, Lords of Andunie, kings of Arnor and Gondor to Aragorn, now this is what I call devotion to your work
I have problem with classifying Finrod, but after thinking this over again, third place among Noldor it’s the best we can do for him
. Nevertheless he is pretty impressive, having most flashy examples of magic as we can get in Tolkien, in his last showdown in dungeons of Sauron at Tol-in-Gaurhoth he broke the chains that binded him, naked without a weapon lounged himself on werewolf and killed it with his teeth, all to protect Beren.
There is much magic in LotR too, I agree with that, but I too think WoW has a fair amount more of it. In WoW you have stuff like the blue dragon aspect, the guardian high lvl casters like Rhonin, Krasus, Thrall, Jaina, and even the dumbest novice tauren warrior is able to learn enchanting, and can give a beer mug +1 damage
Funny thing it reminded me that Gandalf once enchanted beer of Barliman Butterbur.
I asked that because Eonwe is stated to be the best in martial prowess of anyone in Ea (or was it Arda?) Tulkas is probably next. He (in HoME, not actually contradicted by anything, so I’m using it to fill in any gaps, as long as the other “canon” books have something mentioning that) conferee over 90% of a continent seven times, covered an entire mountain range much larger then the Himalayas three times, then still got back to Valmar before anyone else.
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Why so low post count?
In my classification I didn’t counted Valar or Maiar because of their status as gods/angels (whatever, they are divine with awesome powers, stronger than mortals). But the problem with Eonwe and Tulkas is easy to explain. First of all Eonwe is said to be master in using all kinds of weapons, but Tulkas never used a weapon, only his fists and physical strength, which surpass everything on Arda (he is like mega superstrong titan, preferring wrestling, god of physical contest and athletics or like Hercules up to eleven). Eonwe is like Michael angel warrior and herald (but I don’t think in terms of power is comparable with Valar as he is himself lower rank).
Ehh, my bad Michael is more warrior than herald (Gabriel is main herald).
I don’t know why everyone seems to think that heroes of Lotr are too weak to fight Warcraft ones (maybe because of ridiculous look of muscles
). Lotr elves could defeat those of Warcraft I’m sure of that. Dwarves in WoW have only advantage of technology, but lotr dwarves are thougher.
@fantasywind
You’re kinda just saying things here… WHY would LOTR elves beat WoW elves (and which WoW elves?)? Why are LOTR Dwarves tougher than WoW Dwarves? Why are LOTR heroes better than WoW heroes?
First of all WoW Night Elves are no longer immortal, they don’t have Well of Eternity anymore to give them power, their druidic magic is similar to Lotr elves (they too have strong ties with nature, easily mastering animals for example, and other magical effects but less flashy), Noldor were the best elven warriors, masters in the use of sword and excellent archers (even Wood elves are unmatched by any other race, they could shoot a bird in the eye in complete darkness in Mirkwood), they used magical swords (which glowed in presence of orcs, which is very useful, orcs loved to make ambushes) which easily could cut through troll skin (from which normal steel swords just bounced off) wood, and through web of darkness made by evil demonic Spiders, descendants of Ungoliant. Noldor could match Balrogs powerful evil spirits of fire. Dwarves (Lotr) don’t use firearms, but have very good quality weapons (often with magical properties, by use of runes, but again not so flashy like in warcraft), the 500 dwarves in full heavy armor, (covered from head to toe, with wide shields on their backs, two short swords, and axes, other equipment, with additional supplies) run all the way to Erebor from Iron Hills which lie further in the east in few days and still had enough strength to immediately engage in battle with elves and men of Esgaroth (and forces of Thranduil and Bard Bowman far exceed number of Dain dwarves, the same Dain that 77 years later as an over 250 year old guy fought in War of the Ring, all day before the Gate of Erebor, defending body of his friend king of Dale Brand, untill he fell and Lonely Mountain was besieged). Dwarves don’t have all those fancy machines like WoW ones and still are holding against powerful foes. Azaghal dwarf lord from First Age fought with Glaurung Father of Dragons it doesn’t end well for him, but even as he was dying crushed by dragons belly, wounded him so seriously that Glaurung retreat from battle (I mentioned that in earlier post), dwarves of Middle Earth are very resistant to magic and domination of mind (still are affected by rings of power, but cannot be changed into wraiths, also are very resistant to fire and immune of diseases), after his death dwarf forces (Battle of Unnumbered Tears) started to make funeral ceremonies, leaving battlefield, and nobody, not orcs of Morgoth, not even High elves (Noldor) dared to stop them (orcs feared them so much, after their showdown with dragon). When Thror heir of Durin was murdered by Azog (chieftain of orcs from Mysty Mountains), all seven Houses (seven dwarven clans dervied from Seven Fathers, one of which was also Durin) wiped the orcs from Mount Gundabad to Moria which is quite a long range and only few survived. Dwarves taken heavy losses after the funerals they took with them all weapons and armors of the fallen (every dwarf was burdened with twice their own weight).
Did you guys know that the Burning Legion consisted only of a million demons?
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“The Legion,
comprised of a million screaming demons, all ripped from the far corners of
the universe, roiled and burned at the thought of conquest.” – Warcraft 3 manual, page 49
The Gondothlim were able to shoot a bow in the air 7 times farther than the strongest Man could shoot on the ground. Actually, Tulkas used an “iron” gauntlet (if it’s iron, it’s probably enchanted to withstand his strength), and in a source that was never established, but in which Tulkas has shown no sign of being any stronger than in the Silmarillion (the source is HoME), he ripped a landmass in half.
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@Hermit: Did you know the Host of the Valar obliterated an army in the millions, filled with things that can match them?
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There is quite possibly armies of Balrogs (there’s an undated source about “Balrogs one thousand”)
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I have a Mach 1,000+ calc for Balrogs, though since they’ve never shown that speed afterwards, I’m inclined to believe that Morgoth’s call lent them some extra power or whatever. Also, has anyone else read about Morgoth’s automatons?
@ epic
You misunderstand me.
I’m saying that the Burning Legion is not infinite, only the demons in the Twisted Nether are.
I never defended the Legion, and in fact my comment was detrimental to them.
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Though of course now their numbers can be included in the Mortal Plane round.
I know, but I was just pointing out that there are uncounted legions of Elves and Maiar.
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I was wrong, it’s actually a bit over Mach 700, but that was using the longest time frame that makes sense, it would realistically be a bit faster.
*bump*
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Could the Balrogs just speedblitz the second round? And who does WoW have for the first? I’ll say they might take the second (though the named Maiar and Valar who may not be able to change the world on a planetary scale are pretty awesome nonetheless.)
*”I’ll say they might take the second”
Should be third.
“There is quite possibly armies of Balrogs (there’s an undated source about “Balrogs one thousand”)”
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Tolkien’s latest writings on the subject say there were only 7 balrogs.
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“I have a Mach 1,000+ calc for Balrogs”
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Show them.
I have to go for half an hour right now, I’ll show them later. But really, reread what I posted. I said they’re Mach 700+ (with slowest time) and that the source is UNDATED.
Ok. These distance and time numbers are approximations, but I’ll back them with logic.
S=D/T Mach 1=768 mph
D≈300 miles (around 170 straight shot, but it’s almost all hills and mountains)
T≈2 seconds (let’s figure Melkor’s shout startled Ungoliant so that she hesitated a bit – realistically it would be 1.5 seconds max – giving the Balrogs this huge window of oppurtunity to strike)
300 miles/2 seconds=540000.0019 mph
540000.0019/768≈703=Mach 703
As I said, it would in reality be a bit higher, most likely.
“and that the source is UNDATED.”
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The Balrogs were originally envisioned as being immense in number:
“The early conception of Balrogs makes them less terrible, and certainly more destructible, than they afterwards became: they existed in ‘hundreds’ (p. 170), and were slain by Tuor and the Gondothlim in large numbers: “thus five fell before Tuor’s great axe Dramborleg, three before Ecthelion’s sword, and two score were slain by the warriors of the king’s house.”
― The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, commentary by Christopher Tolkien on “The Fall of Gondolin”
“There came wolves and serpents and there came Balrogs one thousand, and there came Glomund the Father of Dragons.”
― The Lost Road and Other Writings, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 16, §15
As the legendarium became more formidable and internally consistent, and the Balrogs more terrible, this number was much reduced. In the end Tolkien stated that there were probably “at most” seven Balrogs:
“In the margin my father wrote: ‘There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.’”
― Morgoth’s Ring, Section 2 (AAm*): note 50
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“I have to go for half an hour right now, I’ll show them later. But really, reread what I posted. I said they’re Mach 700+ (with slowest time)”
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I read what you posted perfectly well the first time.
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“(let’s figure Melkor’s shout startled Ungoliant so that she hesitated a bit – realistically it would be 1.5 seconds max – giving the Balrogs this huge window of oppurtunity to strike)”
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There is no time frame given, so for all we know Morgoth could have been struggling against Ungoliant for hours before the balrogs arrived. We simply don’t have enough evidence to put them anywhere near that speed. It’s far too vague.
He was trapped in a web, and had no chance of escape. Do you think that Ungoliant just stood there twiddling her whatever-is-at-the-end-of-a-spider’s-legs? No, she would have immediately attacked, so the Balrogs have to have appeared in a few moments.
What strength feats do the Warcraft “Gods” have?
-
Also, who does anyone think is a good match for Tulkas, here or in another universe?
This is what I think.
Round 1: Tolkien
Round 2: Undecided, leaning towards WoW.
Round 3: Undecided
Again, this is just my opinion, so I could be wrong.
For the mortal plane round, are we counting players? As WoW classes are overpowered. An 85 paladin alone could shred through most soilders LotR has. (Dang pallys are OP…)
I guess no! If we did, wouldn’t we count players for LotRO, WitN, etc?
@epic, yeah i guess your right, but still, as much as i love LotR, WoW’s infantry is better. Look at Booty Bay’s Bruisers and tell me they are not rediculously overpowered.
Sorry for the spelling, typing on ipod
I can’t. I don’t have WoW, and I can’t find them online. Look at the Maiar on a wiki. Look at Ossë and Melian, specifically.
@epic, I’ve read the silmirellion, and while i thoroughly agree that the maiad would kick an unbelievable amount of ass, i am arguing the normal footsoilder, not the super-awesome angel warriors. As for the bruisers
Taken from wowpedia:
Booty Bay Bruisers are level 85, have 464,000 health, and hit for over 30,000 damage on plate. They are not safely soloable, but may be farmed in a group. They also have the ability to use nets to lock you in place, preventing you from escaping. They spawn every time you attack a citizen of the city, or if you’re under Unfriendly status with Booty Bay, the Bruisers can spawn if you enter a building. Because of this players can soon find themselves swarmed by Bruisers.
The Bruisers have a ranged knockback attack that can be quite difficult to deal with but currently they will not use this on a player unless they can’t reach them due to being on a roof or a different level of the town. They will not use it if simply rooted in place by a spell. They also use it on players that PvP in Booty Bay while at neutral or lower reputation. It is not a huge concern for normal reputation farming but one has to be careful not to aggro a Bruiser that is on a higher or lower platform as sometimes they will start shooting instead of running up to melee range.
Last time i checked my main, a cloth-wearer, had around 150k health.
The damage of 30k on plate is massive as armor negates damage (not sure how much)
The armors, (from weakest to strongest) are:
Cloth, leather, mail, plate.
So the bruisers are hitting you for over 30k damage through 4 tiers of armor. Plus they have a knockback thing with thier guns. Im not talking about a stagger, im talking knock back a few yards kinda deal.
*cough*game mechanics*cough*
How powerful are their attacks on things without HP, or in books?
@Epic
/facepalm
Yes, it is game mechanics, but you misinterperet my info.
This is not about Aragorn vs bruiser, this is about a common footsoilder,
You know, the hundreds of unnamed knights that fought ALONGSIDE the heroes.
What i am suggesting is the quality of the grunts, as in, “Will ONE orc from lotr beat ONE booty bay bruiser from wow”.
There is no lore for them, as they are just common city-guards.
Again this arguement is,”Gondor guard #47 Vs Bruiser #32″
Since the bruisers appear ONLY in-game, (or perhaps mentioned in books) game is canon.
In game they are city-peacekeepers, they have to be overpowered to prevent players from murderizing each other. Since there is no actual info about them other than game mechanics, we HAVE to assume that.
A. They are stronger than an average person
And B. Thier knock-back guns are canon.
/end rant
@Epic
/facepalm
Yes, it is game mechanics, but you misinterperet my info.
This is not about Aragorn vs bruiser, this is about a common footsoilder,
You know, the hundreds of unnamed knights that fought ALONGSIDE the heroes.
What i am suggesting is the quality of the grunts, as in, “Will ONE orc from lotr beat ONE booty bay bruiser from wow”.
There is no lore for them, as they are just common city-guards.
Again this arguement is,”Gondor guard #47 Vs Bruiser #32″
Since the bruisers appear ONLY in-game, (or perhaps mentioned in books) game is canon.
In game they are city-peacekeepers, they have to be overpowered to prevent players from murderizing each other. Since there is no actual info about them other than game mechanics, we HAVE to assume that.
A. They are stronger than an average person
And B. Thier knock-back guns are canon.
Sorry for double post, my ipod is having issues right now…:(
@Nielo:
*facepalm*
I meant HP and damage points are game mechanics. Aside from the Dunedain, I don’t think that named Tolkien characters are naturally that much stronger than non-named, just that named ones are more central, and happen to have advantages given to them (weapons), in fact, sometimes it’s specifically mentioned that unnamed characters are pretty much equal to named ones.
@epic
Right then, but that will still place bruskers above unnamed knights due to imba knockback guns.
Speaking of guns…thats a big advantage, even though normal wow guns, that are not magically infused super cannons, are equivilent to a harkabus. Lotr has yet to see guns. Mediveal armor became useless when rifles first came about. Just like rapiers, they made armor a death sentance. As rapiers and guns would pierce right through.
So could we assume op knockback guns are basically a magically infused harkabus?
And sorry for rant, damn new computer refuses to work….
Morgoth made automatons, and Sauron and Saruman made explosives. Also, siege weaponry>>>guns,
Again this is to prove the footman, not the siege weapons, if we are talking siege and automaton…how bout the iron colossus? www.wowhead.com/npc=30300 i think its only weakness is jormunger worm acid, which is basically a giant spikey worm of death.
Anyway it still wouldn’t negate the fact that guns pierce through armor.
Btw- im not really sure what wow guns are… They claim they are blunderbusses, but blunderbusses fire with a shotgun spray. Harkabusses however seem to have longer barrels and do not spray.
And no where in any book or game does it claim that these basic guns fire a spray. Advanced and modded guns have spray though.
Any thoughts on what the hell these guns are?
NLF. I think they’re guns that were made up for WoW.
Normal soldiers in Lotr of edainic people should be rather strong in the fight, king of Rohan Helm Hammerhand (guess why he was called that way), killed other guy just by one punch in the chest, and Rohirrim are not only foot soldiers but also the best cavalry in their world, more numerous than them were Easterlings and Haradrim who also had horsed forces, some of the Easterling nations like Balchoth and Wainriders used war wagons, and were so mobile that could attack very far from their lands, or even migrate with their whole people, even their women were fighting fierce and with great skill (it’s from them that Northmen, and Eotheod, ancestors of Rohirrim take tradition of shieldmaidens). Beornings were tough bastards, having such a guy like Beorn as a chieftain rather paid off. Descendants of Beorn retained his magic skills of shapeshifting (and probably other magic skills like talking with animals, mastering them and enhancing, like those bees large as a thumb, Beorn himself was HUGE, and strong as hell, in bear form nobody could even scratch him in Battle of Five Armies). Dale citizens called Bardings (to honor their king Bard Bowman who reestablished the realm), should be powerful good force with connections to dwarven weaponry, and I won’t even tell anything about badassery of dwarves, because I posted that already. Gondorian soldiers are the best equipped (not counting dwarves and other non humans) and organized force, with skillful commanders like rince Imrahil, and the rest of Council of Gondor (composed from captains that provided advice to Kings and later Stewards of Gondor) the purest blooded noble houses were by far the strongest because of their Numenorean heritage. And the whole Numenorean military, wheew, it was incredible. That would be something if Numenor at the height of it’s power fought any fation from WoW.
Rohan forces had excellent horse archers, were formed into eoreds and very good in skirmish tactics, Saruman to counter their cavalry used warg riders. Description of First Battle of the Fords of Isen:
,,Theodred son of King Théoden of Rohan, was alerted by his scouts to the mustering taking place in Isengard. He manned both sides of the ford and went forward leaving three companies of riders to guard the eastern side. Early in the morning, he crossed over to the western side with a force mainly consisting of archers and cavalry. He planned to take the forces of Uruk-hai by surprise.
However, Saruman had tricked the scouts; his army was already marching out to attack the ford. Twenty miles to the north of the ford, Théodred encountered the vanguard of the Uruk-hai and quickly cut through their lines. He then charged at the main force, who were prepared for the attack and were stationed behind trenches planted with pikes. Reinforcements came out of Isengard and outflanked the cavalry, nearly surrounding them. Hastily Théodred ordered a retreat, but the Uruk-hai could not be shaken off that easily. Grimbold, who was in command of the Rohirrim rearguard, had to cut down their pursuers many times.
Saruman’s eastern force was much smaller but more dangerous. It contained mounted Dunlendings, Warg riders, and Uruk-hai. The Rohirrim guard on the eastern side of the ford had been driven into retreat, and their attackers recrossed the ford to attack Théodred on both sides. Théodred and his men had dismounted on an islet to cover Grimbold’s retreat. At the same time Grimbold’s force was being attacked from the western side, and as Grimbold looked east, he saw Théodred’s force being driven from the islet to a hill. Grimbold and a few men raced toward Théodred’s position. Théodred was cutting his way through the Uruk-hai lines. But by the time Grimbold reached him, Théodred had fallen, cut down by a giant orc. Grimbold slew the orc and then found himself defending Théodred’s body from orcs. He himself would have been killed had it not been for Elfhelm.
Elfhelm had been leading four companies towards Helm’s Deep, when it was reported to him that two Warg Riders had been spotted. He rode at full speed to the ford and, seeing the situation, ordered his men to charge. Before long his men held the western side of the ford. They then charged on the islet. From this surprise attack most of the Uruk-hai retreated toward Isengard. When they reached the islet they found Grimbold defending Théodred’s body against two huge orcs. Elfhelm rushed to his aid and felled one orc while Grimbold slew the other.
When they lifted Théodred’s body, they found he was still alive. He lived long enough to say, “Let me lie here – to keep the ford until Éomer comes.” The enemy attack ended by nightfall. The Rohirrim had held the ford but suffered heavy losses and were now leaderless.”
Second Battle:
,,The command of the ford was given to Erkenbrand of the Westfold. However, until he arrived from Helm’s Deep, Grimbold held the position. Elfhelm did not want to hold the Fords, as he argued that it provided little defence, but Grimbold was not willing to wholly abandon it, partially due to the tradition of Westfold. The two commanders later reached a compromise.
Grimbold decided to place foot soldiers at the ford and put Elfhelm’s men on the east side where he expected the attack to come from.
Saruman sent a small force, but which was still enough to outnumber the defenders. The attackers forced Grimbold to retreat across the ford with heavy losses. Grimbold held the eastern side of the ford and waited for Elfhelm to come to his aid. More than half of Saruman’s force was attacking Grimbold’s position.
Some warg riders and their followers pushed through the gap between the two Rohirrim forces and tried to surround Elfhelm. Although he knew Grimbold was in danger, Elfhelm retreated eastwards. Grimbold was still holding his position when he saw torches coming from the north and from Isengard – the vanguard of Saruman’s reinforcements advancing towards him. Before he knew it, they had crossed the ford. He could not hold the ford so he retreated to his camp and made a shield wall around it.
Even though the Rohirrim were surrounded, the forces of Isengard could not break through. Grimbold knew he could not hold out forever. With no sign of Elfhelm and no help from Erkenbrand, he decided to try to break out. He mounted all the riders for whom he had horses and made a gap on the east side of the wall through which the riders passed. They formed into two groups and attacked the north and south sides simultaneously. In the ensuing confusion, the remaining Rohirrim retreated on foot as quickly as they could in the dark.
[edit] Aftermath
Saruman’s commander had finished his first task of creating a supply route into Rohan and he now moved on to his more important task – the Hornburg.
However, Saruman had overestimated his success in the battle, as the Rohirrim had suffered significant losses but not as many as had been rumoured. The surviving Rohirrim from the Fords were later rallied by Gandalf, with Grimbold’s men joining up with Erkenbrand to organize the counter-attack at the Hornburg. Elfhelm’s riders were sent to Meduseld to guard against any possible raid by Saruman’s wolf-riders, though ending up no sortie was attempted.”
Description of Battle of the Hornburg:
Strength
,,In the book, The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers, the size of the initial garrison at Helm’s Deep for Rohan was nearly 1,000, but many more were coming into the fort from across Rohan. The estimated number of total Rohirrim defenders is 2,000[1] by the time Saruman’s army arrived. Merry says that the force that left Isengard numbered 10,000 at least, most marching towards Helm’s Deep and others heading off to the Fords of Isen. This number is later qualified by Gandalf: “I have about ten thousand Orcs to manage.”,[2] so considerably more than 10,000 when the Men of Dunland are added. Though the battle appears severely lopsided, as Uruk-hai were much better in battle than simple orcs, the defenders managed to hold the fort until a force of nearly 1,000 men on foot[3] led by Gandalf along with a forest of Huorns arrive at dawn in the rear of the hosts of Isengard and surround the Uruks.”
Background
,,After being released from his malevolent adviser Gríma Wormtongue’s influence by the benevolent Wizard Gandalf, Théoden set out to the Fords of Isen, where his marshal Erkenbrand was fighting Saruman’s forces. However, Théoden found out that they had been scattered. Gandalf advised him to take refuge in the Hornburg fortress of Helm’s Deep, an area named after one of their kings. Then Gandalf left on an unexplained errand. Théoden’s army went to the area, where local people were commanded by a captain called Gamling the Old. Many of the forces there were too old or too young. The women and children of Théoden’s capital Edoras were safe in Dunharrow, led by the King’s niece Éowyn.”
The battle
,,The forces of Saruman, common Orcs and Uruk-hai, along with some orc-human hybrids (called “half-orcs and goblin-men” — which may have referred to or included the Uruk-hai themselves) and human Dunlendings, arrived at the valley of Helm’s Deep in the middle of the night during a storm. Meanwhile, Legolas the Elf and Gimli the Dwarf agreed to compete, to see which one could kill the most orcs.
The attackers quickly scaled over the first defence, Helm’s Dike, forcing the defenders there to fall back to the fortress. When the Orcs were close, the defenders drove them back with arrows and stones, but they managed to get close to the wall after multiple charges. They attempted to break down the gate with a battering ram, but a sortie led by Aragorn and Éomer scattered the forces.
The Orcs and Dunlendings then raised hundreds of ladders to scale the wall. Aragorn and Éomer repeatedly motivated the tired defenders to repel the Orcs coming up the ladders. However, some Orcs had crept in through a culvert which let a stream out of Helm’s Deep, and while the defenders were busy with the assault on the wall, they were suddenly attacked from behind. This was repulsed and the culvert was blocked up under Gimli’s supervision.
However, the enemies re-entered the culvert and blasted a wide hole in the wall using an ambiguous explosive device invented by Saruman, a “blasting-fire”. The defenders then retreated to the Glittering Caves, Éomer and Gimli among them.
Soon Saruman’s forces broke through the gate and gained entrance to the fortress. At this moment, however, the horn of King Helm was sounded, and a cavalry charge led by Théoden and Aragorn rode forth, followed by all the Rohirrim left inside. They cut their way through the Orcs and drove them back from the fortress walls.
Both armies then noticed that strange forest had suddenly sprung up (actually the arrival of many Huorns) which blocked the escape route for the Orcs. Then Gandalf arrived on Shadowfax, with Erkenbrand and a thousand infantry — the remaining strength of the Rohirrim that had been routed at the Fords of Isen. They charged into the fray. The Dunlendings were so terrified of Gandalf that most of them dropped their weapons. The surviving Orcs fled into the “forest” of Huorns, where they were completely annihilated.
After the battle, those Dunlendings who surrendered were given amnesty by Erkenbrand and allowed to return home (much to their surprise, since Saruman had told them that the men of Rohan would burn all survivors alive). The Rohirrim required that all hostilities cease, and that the Dunlendings retreat behind the River Isen again and never recross while bearing arms. Before they were freed, though, the Dunlending captives were put to work in repairing the fortress.
Among the Rohirrim dead was Háma, captain of Théoden’s personal guard and doorward of his hall (he plays a significant role in the previous chapter, “The King of the Golden Hall”). Háma had fallen defending the gate and the Orcs had hewed his body after he died, an atrocity that Théoden did not forget during the upcoming parley with Saruman. Gimli was wounded, but had killed 42 to Legolas’ 41.
The “forest” of Huorns had disappeared the next morning, and the Orcs had been buried in an earthen-works hill known as “Death’s Down”.”
Terminology
,,The event is sometimes called the Battle of Helm’s Deep, a title which was never used by Tolkien but which is often used by readers and other fans, this has led to the misconception that the term “Helm’s Deep” refers to the fortress. Properly speaking, the fortress is the Hornburg (Anglo-Saxon = horn fortress) and Helm’s Deep is the ravine behind it. In one of his letters regarding a proposed film adaptation, Tolkien protested the use of Helm’s Deep, stating that, “the ‘defence of the Hornburg’ would be a better title, since Helm’s Deep, the ravine behind, is not shown” (Letters, 210).”
Here you go everything about Numenoreans what I could find:
Akallabêth wrote:
,,‘This was the beginning of that people that in the Grey-elven speech are called the Dúnedain: the Númenóreans, Kings among Men. But they did not thus escape from the doom of death that Ilúvatar had set upon all Mankind, and they were mortal still, though their years were long, and they knew no sickness, ere the shadow fell upon them. Therefore they grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of Middle-earth; and the light of their eyes was like the bright stars.’” So very tall and immune to diseases.
,,‘In Númenor all journeyed from place to place on horseback; for in riding the Númenóreans, both men and women, took delight, and all the people of the land loved horses, treating them honourably and housing them nobly. They were trained to hear and answer calls from a great distance, and it is said in old tales that where there was great love between men and women and their favourite steeds they could be summoned at need by thought alone.’” able to telepathically call a riding mount.
‘The Númenóreans in their own land possessed horses, which they esteemed. But they did not use them in war; for all their wars were overseas. Also they were of great stature and strength, and their fully-equipped soldiers were accustomed to bear heavy armour and weapons. ’
Great stature and strength and endurance is self-explanatory.
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘Measures of distance are converted as nearly as possible into modern terms. ‘League’ is used because it was the longest measurement of distance: in Númenórean reckoning (which was decimal) five thousand rangar (full paces) made a lár, which was very nearly three of our miles.’
giving you an indication of their measurement to quantify certain feats
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
,,‘The journey was probably at least three hundred and eight leagues as marched; but the soldiers of the Dúnedain, tall men of great strength and endurance, were accustomed to move fully-armed at eight leagues a day ‘with ease’: when they went in eight spells of a league, with short breaks at the end of each league, and one hour near midday. This made a ‘march’ of about ten and a half hours, in which they were walking eight hours. This pace they could maintain for long periods with adequate provision. In hast they could move much faster, at twelve leagues a day (or in great need more), but for shorter periods.’”
capable of between twenty four and thirty six miles in a day..which is beyond modern infantry capabilities
‘..the Hobbits of the Shire were in height between three and four feet, never less and seldom more. They did not of course call themselves Halflings; this was the Númenórean name for them. It evidently referred to their height in comparison with Númenórean men, and was approximately accurate when given.’
average height between six and eight feet tall apparently
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘First they let fly a hail of arrows, and then suddenly with a great shout they did as Isildur would have done, and hurled a great mass of their chief warriors down the last slope against the Dúnedain, expecting to break up their shield-wall. But it stood firm. The arrows had been unavailing against the Númenórean armour. The great Men towered above the tallest Orcs, and their swords and spears far outreached the weapons of their enemies. The onslaught faltered, broke, and retreated, leaving the defenders little harmed, unshaken, behind piles of fallen Orcs.’ quality of weapons and armours is really incredible, besides them only dwarves and Noldor elves can produce such
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘Seven leagues or more from the place of battle. Night had fallen when he fled; he reached the Anduin at midnight or near it.’
an exhausted fully armored ilsdur runs twenty or so miles in six hours, not bad don’t you think.
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘Though it was a long journey, each of the Dúnedain carried in a sealed wallet on his belt a small phial of cordial and wafers of a waybread that would sustain life in him for many days – not indeed the miruvor or the lembas of the Eldar, but like them, for the medicine and other arts of Númenor were potent and not yet forgotten.’ invigorating food stuff, I don’t have to explain how crucial is something like that in sieges, and if it work like lembas, they wouldn’t even need much of this, as it would be the case with normal rations of food.
A Description of Númenor wrote:
,,‘In later days, in the wars upon Middle-earth, it was the bows of the Númenóreans that were most greatly feared. ‘The Men of the Sea’, it was said, ‘send before them a great cloud, as a rain turned to serpents, or a black hail tipped with steel’; and in those days the great cohorts of the King’s Archers used bows made of hollow steel, with black-feathered arrows a full ell long from point to notch.’ “steel bows with BIG range
,,’And behold what hath happened since, step by step, At first he revealed only secrets of craft, and taught the making of many things powerful and wonderful; and they seemed good. Our ships go now without the wind, and many are made of metal that sheareth hidden rocks, and they sink not in calm or storm; but they are no longer fair to look upon. Our towers grow ever stronger and climb ever higher, but beauty they leave behind upon earth. We who have no foes are embattled with impregnable fortresses – and mostly on the West. Our arms are multiplied as if for an agelong war, and men are ceasing to give love or care to the making of other things for use or delight. But our shields are impenetrable, our swords cannot be withstood, our darts are like thunder and pass over leagues unerring. Where are our enemies? We have begun to slay one another. For Numenor now seems narrow, that was so large. Men covet, therefore, the lands that other families have long possessed. They fret as men in chains.” Now this is good, it seems that Sauron thought them how to make steam powered or otherwise ships from metal. And there is more, including, surprise, magic possesed by Numenoreans:
,,‘Desperate, [Frodo] drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand. Two of the [Ringwraiths] halted.’” enchanted blades against wraiths ,,woven with spells for the bane of Mordor”
The Black Gate Opens wrote:
‘He drew his sword and looked at it, and the intertwining shapes of red and gold; and the flowing characters of Numenor glinted like fire upon the blade….
At Pippin’s side Beregond was stunned and overborne, and he fell; and the great troll-chief that smote him down bent over him, reaching out a clutching claw; for these fell creatures would bite the throats of those that they threw down.
Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out. He toppled forward and came crashing down like a falling rock, burying those beneath them. Blackness and stench and crushing pain came upon Pippin, and his mind fell away into a great darkness.’” normal steel swords just bounced off trolls skin (like Boromir sword in Moria, and trolls blood have corrosive properties) and these blades go easily through it. Such military is rather impressive don’t you think, and there are also other examples of their technology, construction feats, and magic.
The Númenoreans aren’t here, only the named ones (the Kings, Chieftains, and Lords.)
I hear the “world” of Warcraft is flat…LAWL
—-
Any one care to confirm this?
@Harbinger Of Pastries
“Also, WHY DO PEOPLE STILL INSIST ON PUTTING LOTR IN FIGHTS. It’s far too vague, few real feats are given, and there isn’t a real basis for comparison. I love LotR as much as the next fantasy fan, but they are nigh impossible to debate for.”
-
QFT.
@shgon
[ @Harbinger Of Pastries
“Also, WHY DO PEOPLE STILL INSIST ON PUTTING LOTR IN FIGHTS. It’s far too vague, few real feats are given, and there isn’t a real basis for comparison. I love LotR as much as the next fantasy fan, but they are nigh impossible to debate for.”
-
QFT.]
Quoting again
Lord of the Rings wins the Gods battle.
~
Warcraft wins the Mortal Plane battle by sheer numbers(trolls, orcs, tauren, blood elves, night elves, humans, draenei, pandaren, dwarves, gnomes, undead, worgen, goblins, naga, murlocs, ogres, dragons, gnolls, kobolds, furbolgs, vrykul, etc, etc).
~
Warcraft also wins the Name Characters battle due to the great many heroes and villains throughout, including Malfurion, the Lich King, Azshara, Thrall, Jaina, Rhonin, Nozdormu, Alexstrasza, Ysera, Cenarius, Malorne, the Gronn, Tyrande, and tons of others.
~
So I suppose I’m with consensus.
Osse is at the very least island-plus, maybe country, but he’s not planetary level, so he’s of use in the Names.
I think that in case of heroes Lotr also wins, (not only in god department
, they don’t have so much magic stuff like in Warcraft and still can hold their ground against magical beings, dragons, wraiths, spiritual god-like beings. And numbers of Warcraft universe are not equal quality.
“I think that in case of heroes Lotr also wins”
-Warcraft has more named characters that I’m aware of, many of them above dragon-level.
~
“And numbers of Warcraft universe are not equal quality.”
-What do you mean by this?
With dragons in mind WoW has:
Red Dragonflight: Masters of life magic, they can create life in the most barren of places, the Ruby shrine in Dragonblight is an example.
Blue Dragonflight: Masters of Arcane magic, their long lifespans and natural aptitude for magic allows them to create huge structures and channel the latent energies of the ley lines, the sunwell and the former well of eternity.
Black Dragonflight: Masters of death and earth magic, they use their abilities to turn themselves to living stone, much like the Earthen and the Tol’vir they also have control over magma, lava and earth elementals.
Green Dragonflight: Masters of the mind and nature, they use their abilities to send their enemies into an endless cycle of waking nightmares so powerful that Ysera nearly managed to capture Deathwing in a cycle at the first battle of grim batol.
Bronze Dragonflight: Masters of the timestreams, they use their abilities to protect the timestream, they can also accelerate themselves and their allies or force their enemies to fight without end for what seems like weeks.
These are basic things each Dragonflight can do, I am not going to write what all the hybrid Dragonflights can do that would take to long.
There is also Broxigar the red, an orc, with an axe (it had the weight and density of diamond) given to him by Cenarius, he managed to slay thousands of demons and open a small wound in Sargeras’ leg which managed to distract his attention enough to allow Illidan and Malfurion to close the Portal on him. www.wowwiki.com/Brox for extra details
Yes, the dragons themselves would make a huge dent in the mortal forces of Middle Earth, if they don’t prove unstoppable altogether.
~
“There is also Broxigar the red”
-Brox is dead in current incarnation.
~
“he managed to slay thousands of demons”
-We actually don’t know how many demons it was, unless you are quoting an official statement.
~
I would say Malfurion, Alexstrasza, Ysera, and Cenarius alone could win the Names battle. Although considering Malfurion’s most recent feat, he might actually be on the “god” level.
Feats for those? Can’t find them, and as I’m only getting the Free Trial, I’m not likely to be able to find out. Also, what about the Maiar? They’re not in the God category.
Feats for Malfurion and the others? I can get some if you want, although I hadn’t actually figured on arguing.
~
You say you are getting the WoW free trial?
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The Maiar include maybe some balrogs(I’ve no idea how many are let alive) and maybe wizards, but I think most of them are named but without many feats, like Radagast. I don’t know about all of them, but with all the named heroes of Warcraft, those of Lord of the Rings guys are vastly outnumbered by powerful combatants and casters alike.
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It’s too bad that Grom isn’t alive for this, though. He’s a beast in battle.
Is Össe a “God”?
The greatest feat for Ossë I know of is making storms.
It says that when he fought with Morgoth, his storms were smashing coastlines and continents (not destroying, just, like, enough to damage the landmass.)
Well, do you have the quote? We need to know if his stormy powers can be applied any other way, or otherwise he’ll just be mostly a nuisance. Does he cause storms to form only, or can he actually control the individual elements? That is the question.
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And does he even have a physical form?
All Ainur can manifest themselves as whatever they want, and also, I think that just causing a storm on the enemy would be very bad for them.
If it’s a strong storm, sure that would hinder things. But when you’re on land, it’s not going to be that bad. Destroying Ossë would be more difficult since, as you said, he can shapeshift.
First of all dragons in Warcraft and dragons in Lotr have some few similarities green dragonflights being masters of mind, so are dragons in Middle Earth, famous dragon spell that manipulate mind of a victim: ,,Bilbo was now beginning to feel really uncomfortable. Whenever Smaug’s roving eye, seeking for him in the shadows, flashed across him, he trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon-spell.”, other kinds, masters of earth and the like, dragons in Lotr could break stones not only by physical strength but also by roar: ,,With a shriek that deafened men, felled trees and split stone, Smaug shot spouting into the air, turned over and crashed down from on high in ruin.”
). Maybe this is not relevant but someone asked about Radagast feats, we only know that his powers were applying to natural world (he was a Maiar of Yavanna), we know that ,,Radagast is, of course, a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue, and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends.” (equivalent of a druid in Middle Earth hehe 
we could say), who knows what other abilities he has, he could talk with animals, but not only him, Saruman used crebain (kind of a bird) as spies, so powers of one wizard could be present in others, they just simply have different specialties, maybe Radagast like ents could also affect the growth of plants, Gandalf used fire element, water along with Elrond, telekinesis, ,,white fire” stream of white light or energy, with which he repealed Nazgul, so other Maiars have similar powers, (so do the Valar), actually there is mentioned that in their battles were involved flashes of light seen for hundreds of miles and strong earthquakes, so blasting an enemy from Azeroth shouldn’t be hard for any ,,god-beings” from Lotr. Curious thing is that ents and huorns have their own unique abilities, and they could be great asset in fight for incarnate races (as Tolkien calls it ,,rational incarnates”): ,,Treebeard lifted two great vessels and stood them on the table. They seemed to be filled with water; but he held his hands over them, and immediately they began to glow, one with a golden and the other a rich green light; and the blending of the two lights lit the bay, as if the sun of summer was shining through a roof of young leaves.”
Their skin is hard like stone (but often they have weak spots), so dragonflights turning to stone isn’t something that makes them tougher than Lotr verse ones.
Main difference is that Azeroth’s dragons are guardians and aspects of reality and those in Middle Earth were created as powerful weapon and they don’t care about world well-being. Of course some dragons of Azeroth have powers which are not existing in Lotr verse, but of those that are associated with elements (especially fire) dragons of Lotr are closer in raw power, and totally capable of controlling this element to their advantage, still some heroes could kill a dragon though it could easily end up with their own deaths (dragon blood is like accid if it comes in contact with skin). Also I thought that Osse and other Maiars are on the god level, Sauron, Istari, Balrogs, shadow spirits (those that Morgoth sent to fight Tilion), are all lesser ,,gods”. We know with certainty that Maiars were capable of controlling weather (examples: Sauron and Osse), they could rise an island, destroy and probably make hills (,,yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills”), even Gandalf in limited, restricted form was able to totally destroy solid stone constructions (Bridge of Khazad Dum and Durin’s Tower and Endless Stairs), some elves also had similar destruction capacity (Galadriel, and in ancient times Luthien, her abilities reaching low level reality warping, I know you’ll argue with my point in this matter
,,You do not know, perhaps, how strong we are. Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves. We are stronger than Trolls. We are made of the bones of the earth. We can split stone like the roots of trees, only quicker, far quicker, if our minds our roused! If we are not hewn down, or destroyed by fire or blast of sorcery, we could split Isengard into splinters and crack its walls into rubble.”
,,They (Huorns) stand here and there in the wood or under its eaves, silent, watching endlessly over the trees; but deep in the darkest dales there are hundreds and hundreds of them, I believe.
“There is a great power in them, and they seem to be able to wrap themselves in shadow: it is difficult to see them moving. But they do. They can move very quickly, if they are angry. You stand still looking at the weather, maybe, or listening to the rustling of the wind, and then suddenly you find that you are in the middle of a wood with great groping trees all around you. They still have voices, and can speak with the Ents – that is why they are called Huorns, Treebeard says – but they have become queer and wild. Dangerous. I should be terrified of meeting them, if there were no true Ents about to look after them.”
,,A mist gathered about them. Above them a few stars still glimmered faintly; but on either side there arose walls of impenetrable gloom; they were in a narrow lane between moving towers of shadow. Voices they heard, whisperings and groanings and an endless rustling sigh; the earth shook under them. Long it seemed to them that they sat and were afraid; but at last the darkness and the rumour passed, and banished between the mountain’s arms.” Ents are sentient race so named ones can be accounted as heroes. There are also other characters that are known as sorcerers, Mouth o Sauron being one of them, sorcery in Middle Earth is left vague but it definitely came from ,,evil knowledge” of Sauron and Morgoth, Black Numenoreans are said to be sorcerers, and even in late Third Age they are still strong: ,,But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-Earth during the years of Sauron’s domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favor; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.” How many there are we don’t know, but some of them lived in Umabar and became lords and kings among Haradrim, and being worshippers of Sauron they learned what he was willing to thought them, whatever they were capable of, sorcerers definitely practiced necromancy: ,,It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one’s own will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.
Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fea from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its righful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.” From this text we know that necromancers are of the host of Sauron” host means rather considerable number, Gandalf in Fellowship said that not all Sauron’s servants are wraiths, tha tthere are many kings and warriors that he command, some of them could be really powerful as sorcerers.
That is a veritable wall of text. And what is the point of it all?
@ Soulerous
“The “heroes”/”named characters” battle is composite. Deceased characters can be used for that one.” EnigmaJ
“-We actually don’t know how many demons it was, unless you are quoting an official statement.”
Quoting Wowwiki, which is based on in-game books.
“The “heroes”/”named characters” battle is composite. Deceased characters can be used for that one.”
-Thanks for bringing that to my attention.
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“Quoting Wowwiki” -When you said “he managed to slay thousands of demons and open a small wound in Sargeras’ leg,” I took that to mean that he slew thousands of demons while through the portal to the Twisting Nether. My mistake. He certainly slew thousands throughout the whole war.
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If you don’t mind answering, do you have a favorite WarCraft character?
I dunno really but it would come down to…
Rexxar
Broxigar
Kalecgos
Nozdormu
and Illidan