Suggested by Sauroposeidon
The Macross Quarter featured in the Macross Frontier anime faces off against the mighty Daedalus from the StarGate franchise.
The two ships have stumbled across each other after mysteriously appearing in the Anoat Asteroid Field featured in the movie Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back. They begin roughly 100 miles away from each other and have picked up each other as unidentified ships. Both vessels take defensive measures to insure their own safety, and both vessels mistake this as hostility from the other. Communication efforts are spotty as best. What happens?
Battlefield Limits: The Anoat asteroid field is NOT the limit of where they may go The field of battle encompasses the entirety of the Hoth System. A ship may turn tail and leave the Hoth System entirely if it wishes, although for the purpose of this fight it will be considered a loss, and whatever happens further in the scenario is moot.
Loading ...
I actually knew stuff about these ships when I made this suggestion..but.. my memory has failed me since, so.. have at it, folks.
Macross is cool in all’ but this is THE Daedalus, not the Apollo or the SunTzu.
Macross Quarter: We must gather our men and try and wrap up this crisis with their captain. And maybe even talk with their navigator to get us out of this hellhole.
Daedalus *message of the Macross*: We…gather…rape…captain…even…navigator…hole….
lol
@Hermit
Wow just wow
LMFAO. That made my day
Do the ships have access to their fighter complements?
Daedalus: What is this?! Tell them to go first lock their weapon systems themselves.
Macross *message of Daedalus*: Go…f…ock…pen…ys…youselves.
Well, after looking up the Macross Quarter I have to give this to the Daedalus. Macross quarter uses nuclear reactors for power generation, even if we assume they are fusion generators rather than fission they wont have even a fraction of the power required to take on the Daedalus.
-
On top of that, the ships acceleration seems fairly slow as far as stardard space combat goes and not a patch on the Daedalus in the Macross combat clips I viewed.
-
So, dead Macross.
@Cananatra
_
The Macross Quarter has the advantages of its transformation system and Macross Cannon (which is an anti-fleet weapon)…keep in mind ships in Macross are shielded and the cannon usually destroys them without any resistance
I’m pretty sure the Macross Quarter is more maneuverable than the Daedalus. It’s one of the more maneuverable ships I’ve seen, actually. The Daedalus has never struck me as being the speedster of this match, as I’ve never seen it swing it’s way through enemy fire the way the Quarter has.
-
As for the reactors, what exactly do you propose the upper limits of the Quarter’s reactors must be? Are you familiar with the thing’s actual weapons? Your statement would be more useful if you had said something like “Daedalus can tank X level of fire power, and the Quarter can only dish out V levels of damage, so Quarter can’t hurt Daedalus.”
cant wait to go to pittsburg
Should probably show some feats…
_
Maneuverability, Firepower, AND Transformation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD1LlDhItF0&feature=related
_
Macross Attack
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slqa30DSSKE
_
Macross cannon wiping out a fleet
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG5HDoy7RTI
_
That should give a good idea of the Macross Quarters abilities. Coincidentally the last video is from a different Macross class (Battle 7 since I couldnt find one of Quartier wiping a fleet) however that Macross class is outdated by the time of Frontier and it should still give a good idea of what firepower the main gun has
Didn’t Daedalus rip Gou’ld vessels apart with ease? Then have that time slow ability(little good may it do them.)?
true but that was actualy the odassey
Sauro, there is no point in us working out the firepower for Macross as it must be below what Daedalus has. Even if the entirety of the ship was one giant nuclear reactor, which it isn’t, it couldn’t match a ZPM in power output. The gulf in the power is such that macross hasn’t a hope. However we do have Daedalus’s weapon and shield strength and the weapons alone are packing petatons.
-
As for speed, I watched:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxXCV4DN3fU
Which puts Macross’s acceleration way below the sublight accelerations of Sg ships. They can accelerate from the habitable zone of a star to the star itself in a few minutes.
“Didn’t Daedalus rip Gou’ld vessels apart with ease?”
It did. It doesn’t have the Asgard Core or the ZPM the Odyssey does, but it does have Asgard shields, Beaming tech, Asgard Plasma Beams, a stockpile of on-board nukes (just waiting to be launched or beamed as needed), a bunch of railguns, and it can use its FTL for point-to-point maneuvering (such as jumping through a planet when its engines are down).
The basic tech on board can also be used for a number of other things; something on board (I believe its the Hyperdrive) can be modified to phase the ship out by one person in a very short time (as seen in the episode ‘Grace’, although it was the Prometheus that did it), the Odyssey shows that the shields can be modified into a cloaking device (although they needed Prior!Daniel to do that), etc.
-
“Then have that time slow ability(little good may it do them.)?”
That was a built-in feature of the Asgard Core, which, when we last saw the Daedalus, it didn’t have. As far as we know that’s still just on the Odyssey, even though they have the tech to make more.
agh damn me mixing up the odyssey and the Daedalus. Ignore all the ZPM references, though you could just replace them with the reactors the Daedalus class normally uses which are still way above nuclear.
“That should give a good idea of the Macross Quarters abilities. Coincidentally the last video is from a different Macross class (Battle 7 since I couldnt find one of Quartier wiping a fleet) however that Macross class is outdated by the time of Frontier and it should still give a good idea of what firepower the main gun has”
-
Pretty sure the Battle line is stronger. The Battle 25 took out Galaxy, after all, although the Quarter did disable its gun first. The Quarter line is definitely faster than the Battle Line, which 25/Frontier is a part of, so there shouldn’t be any reason to make a distinction between it and Battle 7, and while not as strong does still have the ability to wipe out fleets. It also has exceptional durability, able to take hits from Vajra ships with out losing the pin point barrier and being right next to a Battle’s main gun’s beam with out popping.
-
Surviving being in a Battle’s corona effect
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG5HDoy7RTI
-
Wiping a fleet with the Heavy Quantum Reaction Cannon, and also surfing.. because, hey, the Quarter’s a nimble beast, so why not?
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uULjjKgHPkE
-
“Sauro, there is no point in us working out the firepower for Macross as it must be below what Daedalus has. Even if the entirety of the ship was one giant nuclear reactor, which it isn’t, it couldn’t match a ZPM in power output. ”
-
1. Acknowledging you later bring up that it does not use a ZPM. I was going to say something until I read that. I don’t remember too much..but I thought it didn’t have or only rarely was granted one of those or something like that.
2. You should probably actually observe the Quarter’s attack power before coming to conclusions, as well as the combat ability of its fighters. Your argument, if I understand it currently, is “I don’t think the power source would be sufficient for the Quarter to be able to do anything.” Which when dealing with fiction is probably a bad idea. You haven’t bothered to ask what the actual yields are of its weaponry, or if it carries missile weapons which clearly don’t make use of its power source. A DE Missile, for instance, doesn’t much care about how powerful your shields (or armor, either) are.
-
“Which puts Macross’s acceleration way below the sublight accelerations of Sg ships. They can accelerate from the habitable zone of a star to the star itself in a few minutes.”
-
Do we actually have instances, clips, of them doing this with out the use of their ftl systems? As that would put them above ftl from, say Earth to our Sun in just a few minutes. Although maneuverability feats I think would be more important to present, how they move when they actually fight. Standard travel speeds are fairly unimportant. I seem to recall the Daedalus being able to adjust direction while keeping a decent pace, but not being able to engage in ftl combat maneuvers or it would all the time. The Quarter is able to keep pace with most fighters, giving it something like 20-30g’s of acceleration in any direction it points its legs.
-
“owever we do have Daedalus’s weapon and shield strength and the weapons alone are packing petatons.”
-
I’m kind of skeptical on that. I know its rail guns and standard missiles don’t hit that hard, so I’m guessing you’re talking about the enhanced nukes it carries. You realize Quarter has anti-missile defenses at its disposal, yes?
” Even if the entirety of the ship was one giant nuclear reactor, which it isn’t, it couldn’t match a ZPM in power output. The gulf in the power is such that macross hasn’t a hope.”
-
This is fiction. For all we know, Macross Quarter may have a fusion reactor the size of a room that puts out 3298471928312890371298392183719283789 Gigawatts. We still need to know the strength of weapons, shields, durability, etc….
-
“the weapons alone are packing petatons.”
-
Nope.
“2. You should probably actually observe the Quarter’s attack power before coming to conclusions, as well as the combat ability of its fighters. Your argument, if I understand it currently, is “I don’t think the power source would be sufficient for the Quarter to be able to do anything.” Which when dealing with fiction is probably a bad idea. You haven’t bothered to ask what the actual yields are of its weaponry, or if it carries missile weapons which clearly don’t make use of its power source. A DE Missile, for instance, doesn’t much care about how powerful your shields (or armor, either) are.”
-
True enough, I only glanced at the Macross info and a few clips, I’m by no means an expert on it.
-
“Do we actually have instances, clips, of them doing this with out the use of their ftl systems? As that would put them above ftl from, say Earth to our Sun in just a few minutes. Although maneuverability feats I think would be more important to present, how they move when they actually fight. Standard travel speeds are fairly unimportant. I seem to recall the Daedalus being able to adjust direction while keeping a decent pace, but not being able to engage in ftl combat maneuvers or it would all the time. The Quarter is able to keep pace with most fighters, giving it something like 20-30g’s of acceleration in any direction it points its legs.”
-
Well a few instances of tauri ships lifting off from planets into high orbit under a minute. We also saw at least once a daedalus class going from atlantis to its sun in minutes. Also, they’d have to reach the sun in under 8.5 minutes for it to be FTL. The daedalus seldom or never really, uses its FTL in combat. It could, as we’ve seen it dodge planets with it when the sublight engines where caput, but they seem not to. 20-30g’s is way lower than SG ships though.
-
“I’m kind of skeptical on that. I know its rail guns and standard missiles don’t hit that hard, so I’m guessing you’re talking about the enhanced nukes it carries. You realize Quarter has anti-missile defenses at its disposal, yes?”
-
No numbers on teh rail guns so far as i remember, though they packed a decent punch and ROF. The enhanced nukes are a minimum 1GT, as thats the weakest enhanced nuke, though likely much stronger. However the petaton weapon is its asgard plasma beams.
-
“Nope.”
-
Excellent rebuttal there Aelfinn, unfortunately, you are wrong.
78 Teratons for naquadah shields (This would be higher with an Asgard core, though I forget if the daedalus has one.)
1.54 Petatons per Asgard beam. (4 emitters)
-
Those are from the calcs I done ages ago on the SG vs 40k thread.
“True enough, I only glanced at the Macross info and a few clips, I’m by no means an expert on it.”
-
Yeaaahhh.. it’s fiction, as Aelfinn pointed out. While to my knowledge Macross tries at least to follow science somewhat, it’s still a sci-fi that involves giant transforming robots…
-
“Well a few instances of tauri ships lifting off from planets into high orbit under a minute. We also saw at least once a daedalus class going from atlantis to its sun in minutes. Also, they’d have to reach the sun in under 8.5 minutes for it to be FTL. The daedalus seldom or never really, uses its FTL in combat. It could, as we’ve seen it dodge planets with it when the sublight engines where caput, but they seem not to.”
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBtMlCkpbfw
-
This is their acceleration feats as of Frontier, and them running away from a DE Bomb as it eats a planet for comparative feats.
-
I’m familiar with how long it would have to take, and a few minutes in less than several minutes, which light takes to make the run from there to here. So the question, I guess, is how far away was that sun that they traveled to, and do we know how long it actually took them or if it was typical movie/show time where they cut out time during the travel, or a scene is much shorter or longer than the wait which their words claim they waited.
-
“No numbers on teh rail guns so far as i remember, though they packed a decent punch and ROF. The enhanced nukes are a minimum 1GT, as thats the weakest enhanced nuke, though likely much stronger. However the petaton weapon is its asgard plasma beams.”
-
If I recall, the nukes their fighters are equipped with are 10GT. I have little experience with the plasma beam,. as I don’t watch Stargate as much as I’d of liked to, know if there’s any good clips of it? Or if there’s a specific episode on Netflix to check out to see it in action?
I admit I haven’t see Frontier yet, but will and does the Quarter have veritech fighters, and will they be allowed in the match?
“I have little experience with the plasma beam,. as I don’t watch Stargate as much as I’d of liked to, know if there’s any good clips of it? Or if there’s a specific episode on Netflix to check out to see it in action?”
The entire first bit of the final episode of SG-1 ‘Unending’ features the Odyssey with its Plasma Beams frying Ori Battleships (which up to this point were nigh-invulnerable; the only one destroyed was from the woosh from a Supergate. In their first appearance (the season 9 finale of SG-1), a combined Tau’ri, Free Jaffa, Lucian Alliance, and Asgard fleet wasn’t even able to scratch the first three we see) in a couple of shots each. It was all calc’d out on 40k vs Stargate.
As for the Daedalus, in the later seasons of SGA (which take place after SG-1 ends) it shows up, along with the Apollo, after a brief retrofit on Earth with some shiny new Plasma Beams, and starts one- and two-shotting Wraith Hiveships with them (each of which is capable of withstanding multiple teraton-level impacts before blowing up).
Yes, and yes. As well as the Deadalus’ fighters, the Quarter has everything, including the named character pilots and their respective fighters, such as Alto and the VF-25 and Caneria and her Koenig Monster. This follows for the Daedalus as well.
“This follows for the Daedalus as well.”
Does the Daedalus have 302s or Jumpers? In SG-1 it usually carries 302s but once it moves to Atlantis they mostly use Jumpers, but they’re kept on Atlantis itself, not the Daedalus.
“It was all calc’d out on 40k vs Stargate.”
-
Let’s assume I never actually took the time to read through all..what is it? 4k+ posts, of that.. How did we get to these?
-
“(each of which is capable of withstanding multiple teraton-level impacts before blowing up).”
-
I distinctly recall wraith ships being high on quantity, low on quality.. so how do we know one can take multiple teraton-level impacts, exactly?
“Let’s assume I never actually took the time to read through all..what is it? 4k+ posts, of that.. How did we get to these?”
It was all done by Cananatra, so apologies to him if I miss something, but it started with the stated stats for Ha’taks from season 1 (1 gt shields, 200 megatons per shot, stated in-show). Everything was scaled from that (how many Ha’tak shots does it take to break this shield? That many, then it has that strength. And so on). He can probably explain it better.
-
“I distinctly recall wraith ships being high on quantity, low on quality”
They may be shitty in comparison to their opponents, but their opponents were the Ancients. That’s like saying the Necrons are crap because they don’t match up to the Daleks.
Also, the Wraith’s problems are in power generation and abundancy of food, not quality of ships. When a single Wraith Hiveship finally gets a ZPM in the SGA series finale, it chews through the Daedalus, Apollo and Sun Tzu without breaking a sweat, starts fighting Atlantis (yes, that Atlantis) over Earth, *and was winning* until Shepard blew it up from the inside.
“It was all done by Cananatra, so apologies to him if I miss something, but it started with the stated stats for Ha’taks from season 1 (1 gt shields, 200 megatons per shot, stated in-show). Everything was scaled from that (how many Ha’tak shots does it take to break this shield? That many, then it has that strength. And so on). He can probably explain it better.”
-
Does it remain consistent? I suppose he’ll post this stuff sooner or later.
-
“That’s like saying the Necrons are crap because they don’t match up to the Daleks.”
-
I suppose it’s all comparative, but the Wraith were getting chewed up an awful lot in the show.
-
“When a single Wraith Hiveship finally gets a ZPM”
-
ZPMs are to Stargate as Stars are to Mario though…
“Does it remain consistent? I suppose he’ll post this stuff sooner or later.”
Yeah, you’ll have to ask him that, unfortunately. I do recall it was always absolute low-ends for everything, though (for example, the 1 gigaton shields on Ha’taks are for surviving a 1 gigaton nuke (the first Naquadah-enhanced warhead on the show) without losing shields. It can probably take more, but that’s the only definite yield we have.).
-
“I suppose it’s all comparative, but the Wraith were getting chewed up an awful lot in the show.”
To be fair, it was sort of justified. In the early seasons before the Daedalus had Asgard Beams, they relied on either beaming multi-gigaton Naquadah-enhanced nukes on board the Wraith ships (which they very quickly (meaning within minutes of the first use) scrambled with interference generators), and when that stopped working they had to run with their tails between their legs. It wasn’t until they got the huge tech upgrade from the Asgard at the end of SG-1 (where they got the Beams) that they could take the Wraith as we’re used to.
-
“ZPMs are to Stargate as Stars are to Mario though…”
True, but it just shows that Wraith tech itself isn’t actually all that bad, it’s just that they have hilarious power generation issues. But Todd implies that they had at least a few ZPMs during the Ancient-Wraith war, at least powering their cloning facilities.
unfortunately the deadalus dosnt have a zpm but it still has that asgard pwr core
“Excellent rebuttal there Aelfinn, unfortunately, you are wrong.”
-
If anything from Stargate has a biosphere-wiper, I’ll eat a spoon and shit a brick. I watched the show.
…hey, does the Quarter ever carry dimension eater warheads?
“…hey, does the Quarter ever carry dimension eater warheads”
-
Yes but they are carried by its fighters, to my knowledge, as opposed to being launched by the ship itself. I can’t see why it couldn’t launch them itself, it’s just a far better idea to put them on the fighters instead.
Regarding the SG calc’s Cananatra originally did them way back when on the SG vs 40K thread however they were corrected by me and agreed on by Cananatra on page 43 post 4218 through to 4230: www.factpile.com/5524-warhammer-40k-vs-stargate/comment-page-43/#comments
-
Because we know that the Asgard technology given to the Tau’ri during Unending was retrofitted onto the other 304 classes (at least everything barring the Asgard Computer Core), the Daedalus has 97.308 Petaton shielding, can accelerate to 50% the speed of light (the max sublight speed of the previous and inferior 303 class ship) and very powerful plasma beam weaponry. It also has intergalactic hyperdrive capable of travelling three million light-years in a few weeks (very slow by SG standards), meaning it could run away, circle back around return right behind the Macross Quarter open fire, retreat and do the same again and again.
-
The 304 class ships are also capable of withstanding the intense gravity from black holes and indeed flying very near to them and out again:
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRy7uUQKmks&t=1m33s
-
Since I don’t know anything what so ever about the Macross Quarter or the franchise for that matter could some-one let me know how these Daedalus feats compare to the Macross Quarter?
“I’m familiar with how long it would have to take, and a few minutes in less than several minutes, which light takes to make the run from there to here. So the question, I guess, is how far away was that sun that they traveled to, and do we know how long it actually took them or if it was typical movie/show time where they cut out time during the travel, or a scene is much shorter or longer than the wait which their words claim they waited.”
-
It was a similar spectral class to our own and the planet was habitable so it was likely a similar distance as from earth to the sun. The exact time wasn’t given, Mckay had to rig the ZPM to the shields to take the solar flare, we’ve seen ZPM’s being tied into the ships in less than ten minutes in other episodes so as he was rushing to finish when they arrived it can’t be all that long. The fighters are quite manoeuvrable I’ll grant you, the 302’s the Daedalus carries couldn’t match that, but that’s hardly surprising as they are definitely anime fighter movements. Straight line top speed we have seen 302’s reach orbit in that sort of time frame in the clip.
-
“If I recall, the nukes their fighters are equipped with are 10GT. I have little experience with the plasma beam,. as I don’t watch Stargate as much as I’d of liked to, know if there’s any good clips of it? Or if there’s a specific episode on Netflix to check out to see it in action?”
-
Are you talking about the nukes Macross fighters have, because 302’s don’t normally come with nukes (though they can be fitted).
-
“I distinctly recall wraith ships being high on quantity, low on quality.. so how do we know one can take multiple teraton-level impacts, exactly?”
-
They out quantity the ancients while being lower, but they also bitch slapped the asgard one on one when the evil asgard breakaway showed up, so they aren’t exactly a low tech swarm civilisation, its just the ancients where so high tech compared to everyone else.
-
“It was all done by Cananatra, so apologies to him if I miss something, but it started with the stated stats for Ha’taks from season 1 (1 gt shields, 200 megatons per shot, stated in-show). Everything was scaled from that (how many Ha’tak shots does it take to break this shield? That many, then it has that strength. And so on). He can probably explain it better.”
-
More or less that. We have Ha’tak weapon strength from episode dialog and shield strength from sitting in the corona of a star for x amount of time before the shields failed. From that, looking at all the various battle scenes where the ships pound one another I worked out how many shots it took to knock down shields and so on. Mind you, since that scene with the Ha’tak was early season strength, and the ha’taks got stupidly buffed as the series continues all my numbers are low end as I didn’t work out the ha’tak buffs.
-
“Does it remain consistent? I suppose he’ll post this stuff sooner or later.”
-
So long as you remember it doesn’t follow power creep we see from the Ha’taks, yes.
-
“If anything from Stargate has a biosphere-wiper, I’ll eat a spoon and shit a brick. I watched the show.”
-
Depends how the energy is deployed mate. You’ll have noticed that stargate energy beams/bolts do not detonate on impact, they maintain their coherency until the energy is used up. We see a very good instance of this when Anubis’s flagship is being pounded from orbit and shots pass clean through it occasionally. A beam is not a nuke, or an asteroid impact so it wont boil away the oceans or blow off the atmosphere, it’ll just punch its way into the crust.
-
“Daedalus has 97.308 Petaton shielding”
-
Just to be clear for sauro that was after the upgrades, my calcs are all pre-upgrades, hence why they where lower in shield strength.
I should probably wait for Enoirin or someone else who remembers stuff about Macross better than I do.. ah well.
-
“It was a similar spectral class to our own and the planet was habitable so it was likely a similar distance as from earth to the sun. The exact time wasn’t given, Mckay had to rig the ZPM to the shields to take the solar flare, we’ve seen ZPM’s being tied into the ships in less than ten minutes in other episodes so as he was rushing to finish when they arrived it can’t be all that long.”
-
It would strike me that it was then a fairly decent period of time of around 18-20ish minutes, since it usually takes him conveniently 50-90% of an episode’s length to fix serious problems. He seems to be rather guided by the rule of television drama. That’s going with the 50% speed of light that I saw mentioned too, although I’d like to see where we know that too.
-
“The fighters are quite manoeuvrable I’ll grant you, the 302’s the Daedalus carries couldn’t match that, but that’s hardly surprising as they are definitely anime fighter movements. ”
-
The fighters move roughly as one would expect in space, although once transformed they do sacrifice linear speed for exceptional maneuverability. Although they do use the Ghost from Macross Plus, one of their pilots commands three of them at a time from his VF-25, and the Ghosts are still stupidly maneuverable due to lack of having humans on board.
-
“Are you talking about the nukes Macross fighters have, because 302’s don’t normally come with nukes (though they can be fitted).”
-
Yes, standard reaction missiles the fighters carry are 10GT to my knowledge. These were Varuta anti-fleet warheads though, and represented the technology available to the Zentradi at the time of the creation of the protodevilin I believe, and do not represent what the humans use. I know they had anti-planet reaction warheads, but since we don’t know jack about the protoculture, and the Zentradi were technologically stagnant, using only surviving factories to produce themselves and their equipment, we’ll never know the extent of their original abilities. I imagine that the humans do not yet have planet wiping warheads, as the Dimension Eater bomb was quite a shock to them. Reaction warhead equipped missiles are not suitable for interceptor use, and when using anti-ship techniques they’ll likely employ MDE’s due to their ability to ignore things like armor, as their enemies (The Vajra) at the time of use of the MDE’s had adapted ablative exoskeletons to completely survive at least one hit from their most powerful weapons. Standard missiles used for fighting other small craft can be seen here..
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nebjj50HH0o
-
and here.
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxnC6jkJyEM
-
MDE’s, which have a range of at least 50km can be seen here, I would suggest skipping to 1:30
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sw5bwH9ysk
-
“they out quantity the ancients while being lower, but they also bitch slapped the asgard one on one when the evil asgard breakaway showed up, so they aren’t exactly a low tech swarm civilisation, its just the ancients where so high tech compared to everyone else.”
-
I didn’t know there were evil asgard… Although this doesn’t explain how we know they have such ridiculously high shields considering they do get chewed up all the time..
-
“Mind you, since that scene with the Ha’tak was early season strength, and the ha’taks got stupidly buffed as the series continues all my numbers are low end as I didn’t work out the ha’tak buffs.”
-
Have you considered that they might just be improving their technology? And I’m guessing the measurement you took was from the nearest episode to the episode where their shield strength was stated?
-
“So long as you remember it doesn’t follow power creep we see from the Ha’taks, yes.”
-
I think these should be taken in to consideration, although I understand that sci-fi tends to have fluctuating strength levels for a lot of things over time.
-
“Just to be clear for sauro that was after the upgrades, my calcs are all pre-upgrades, hence why they where lower in shield strength.”
-
If the upgrades are still there I don’t see why they wouldn’t be used.
-
As for the Quarter, if what I’ve been told is right, and we’ll need a big Macross fan to confirm this, the large tri-beam firing Vajra are unleashing beams equal in power to a Macross Battle class ship’s Macross Cannon, so we can safely assume that the Quarter’s pin point barrier shield can absorb at least three of those before it goes down. It’s holsterable flight deck also operates as a shield/sword in battroid mode, and is equipped with energy absorbing armor.. but I don’t know if we ever get to see it use this. If anyone wants to try to quantify these, then go for it, but it’s greatest defense is it’s maneuverability and point defenses from its role as a carrier. Armed with dozens of Cheyenne II destroids and just as many veritechs, the thing can put out a flak cloud to make it difficult for the Daedalus’ fighters to get in, so I propose the Daedalus will need to rely on its beam weapons, rail guns, and missiles to hurt the Quarter. So what is the punching power on the rail guns, how good are the missiles at avoiding interception, and what’s the velocity of the plasma beams? Conversely, the Quarter primarily relies on her fighter compliment for offense, only providing support when absolutely needed. I know the Daedalus has point defenses, but I don’t remember how many guns it has or how good they are at bringing fighters down.
“It would strike me that it was then a fairly decent period of time of around 18-20ish minutes, since it usually takes him conveniently 50-90% of an episode’s length to fix serious problems. He seems to be rather guided by the rule of television drama. That’s going with the 50% speed of light that I saw mentioned too, although I’d like to see where we know that too.”
-
50% the speed of light was specifically stated in season 6 episode 11 “Prometheus”:
-
“[Carter ushers Donovan and Martell in from the corridor.]
DONOVAN
What is this?
CARTER
The engine room.
[They walk around and look through interior windows at the hyperdrive system itself.]
MARTELL
How fast does it go?
CARTER
Using sublight engines, the ship can accelerate to 110,000 miles per second. It’s over half the speed of light.
JONAS
Of course it is nowhere near fast enough to achieve interstellar travel. For that, we need the hyperdrive.”
-
From: www.stargate-sg1-solutions.com/wiki/6.11_%22Prometheus%22_Transcript
-
110000 (the speed of light) / 186,282 * 100 = 59%, so I was slightly under. But this was for the BC-303 Prometheus.
-
The 304 spec’s were only given in a DVD subscription supplement I think was given explicitly as 50% of the speed of light. Pick whichever.
-
“I didn’t know there were evil asgard… Although this doesn’t explain how we know they have such ridiculously high shields considering they do get chewed up all the time..”
-
They were a group of Asgard that left their civilisation to experiment without the restrictions the Asgard High Council put in place on experimenting with humans.
-
They went to the Pegasus galaxy where, after the Ancients lost the war against the Wraith, the Wraith nearly destroyed them. By the time we see them in Atlantis they are barely surviving with only a couple of ships they built from scratch themselves.
-
The main Asgard civilisation made great progress in the 10,000 years since the two groups split and it was said in the episode that the splinter group were not able to build ships to the highest technological standards they did have access to due to a lack of resources. Hence why they couldn’t build any ships capable of intergalactic travel to escape the Wraith.
-
“Have you considered that they might just be improving their technology? And I’m guessing the measurement you took was from the nearest episode to the episode where their shield strength was stated?”
-
Goa’uld don’t develop technology they steal it (baring Anubis). In this case, the shields and weapons were improved using knowledge from the Ancients that Anubis gained during his ascension, which then allowed his Ha’tak ships to take on older, obsolete Asgard ships. Later on, the first episode of Stargate Universe, the Lucian Alliance were stated by the one of the main Stargate writers Joseph Mallozzi to have upgraded the ships they had in their possession. The Lucian Alliance, not being Goa’uld do develop technology.
-
“I think these should be taken in to consideration, although I understand that sci-fi tends to have fluctuating strength levels for a lot of things over time.”
-
-
“If the upgrades are still there I don’t see why they wouldn’t be used.”
-
They are still there.
-
” but I don’t know if we ever get to see it use this. If anyone wants to try to quantify these, then go for it, but it’s greatest defense is it’s maneuverability and point defenses from its role as a carrier. Armed with dozens of Cheyenne II destroids and just as many veritechs, the thing can put out a flak cloud to make it difficult for the Daedalus’ fighters to get in,”
-
The Daedalus’s fighter craft are largely pointless in this fight, they are simply too weak.
-
It does seem pretty maneuverable for a large ship, though I don’t know how fast it can go. My best guess is no-where near 59% of light speed, but it does seem to be able to turn faster than Stargate ships but I don’t think this would matter much when Stargate weapons routinely target ships travelling so much faster than the Macross Quarter is.
-
The flak barrier will do bugger all against 97 petaton shielding, and won’t stop an energy weapon like the Asgard plasma beams.
-
“so I propose the Daedalus will need to rely on its beam weapons, rail guns, and missiles to hurt the Quarter. So what is the punching power on the rail guns, how good are the missiles at avoiding interception, and what’s the velocity of the plasma beams? Conversely, the Quarter primarily relies on her fighter compliment for offense, only providing support when absolutely needed. I know the Daedalus has point defenses, but I don’t remember how many guns it has or how good they are at bringing fighters down.”
-
The rail guns fire a slug of unknown size at mach 5 and have a range of 250 miles (so they are in range from the start of the match). That said Stargate ship combat usually usually takes place at under 5km, judging by the time it takes for the railgun rounds to impact (they only travel at 1 mile at second).
-
Though there are capable of taking out an unshielded fighter in a single burst, they generally track too slowly to do this much, they were designed as anti-capital ships weapons after all and the 302 class fighters were supposed to take care of anti fighter duties.
-
That said if all most powerful weapons the Macross Quarter fighter’s have are 10GT then they won’t even dent the 97 Petaton shields on the Daedalus.
-
The missles aren’t particurally great at avoiding anything, in fact they don’t since they are just dumb, as opposed to smart, missiles unlike Ancient Drone’s.
-
However:
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uehxUjACIsc
-
At 0:40 seconds it shows a full missile salvo and the damage just a on (or is it a few?) do to a Wraith Hive ship.
-
The explosion at 0:54 is probably about 600 metres across (since the Daedalus is about 220 metres long. I don’t know if that was a nuke or not (though I would guess so) but all of those missiles were the same strength.
-
But these are unlikely to get through a flak screen, which is why it is much easier for the Daedalus to just beam those straight on-board the Quarter and destroy it from the inside.
-
We don’t have a speed for the plasma beams but since Stargate ships are apparently much faster than the Macross ones (by significant percentage of light speed) I don’t think it really matters.
-
Do any of the Macross ships have beaming/teleportation technology? If so do they have the technology to block beaming? And if so, does this ship have it?
-
If the answer to any of those questions is no then the Daedalus can win this simply by tanking there main weapons and beaming a nuke inside the Macrosss Quarter.
You wanna run this petaton figure by me again? Explain it, show the evidence, etc. I looked at 40K vs. Stargate, but all I saw was a bunch of numbers. Where they are coming from or what scene we are looking at would be helpful. It’s incredibly inconsistent because we’ve seen shields be taken down before and we have NEVER seen weapons that can put out petaton shots.
-
“Depends how the energy is deployed mate. You’ll have noticed that stargate energy beams/bolts do not detonate on impact, they maintain their coherency until the energy is used up. We see a very good instance of this when Anubis’s flagship is being pounded from orbit and shots pass clean through it occasionally. A beam is not a nuke, or an asteroid impact so it wont boil away the oceans or blow off the atmosphere, it’ll just punch its way into the crust.”
-
Well then you can’t measure it in explosive force, i.e. petatons. A prefix-ton is the force behind a ton-amount of TNT. This is an incompatible comparison.
I have found his calcs! Post 1211 on 40k vs Stargate.
Courtesy of Cananatra:
-
“Now a few times in the last pages people asked for my calcs, i could be mean and say go look for them in the thread, but I wont. Here they are:
-
Asgard shields
stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Asgard_shield
Very powerful, but not much help for us right there without some numbers.
Looking to the feats of a ZPM power asgard shield we get the episode echoes.
stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Echoes
Firstly to quote McKay
“McKAY: It’s a coronal mass ejection on a scale that dwarfs anything our sun has ever emitted.”
Well dwarfs doesnt help us much. But it means we can take the best our sun has thrown out and know the SG shields can take at least that much.
“Coronal mass ejections reach velocities between 20km/s to 3200km/s with an average speed of 489km/s, based on SOHO/LASCO measurements between 1996 and 2003. The average mass is 1.6×1012kg. The values are only lower limits, because coronagraph measurements provide only two-dimensional data analysis.”
So taking averages 489km/s ( or 483×10^3 m/s) and 1.6×10^12kg.
So lets get the kinetic energy E = 1/2mv^2 (Sorry they look so bad)
so E = (0.5)(1.6×10^12)(483×10^3)^2
E = 9.01428696×10^28 joules
As factpile seems to like this in tons of TNT for some reason….
2.177364×10^19 Tons
or
21.8 exatons
Now remember, thats just the kinetic energy. The amount of thermal energy would be massive, and to get the number would require dipping into themral dynamics, and for this I’m not bothered with that type of maths.
-
So ZPM powered Sg shields can take at least 21.8 exatons.
Factoring in dwarfed would mean that the energy they were hit by is much greater then the above calculation (which is itself an average)[And only teh kinetic energy].
Now to look at celestial sizes, for a rough definition of dwarf on that scale.
A diameter of 838 km is the treashold between being a rock and a dwarf planet.
Earth diameter 12756 km.
Now this math is arbitrary as McKay just said it dwarfed, but in celestial mechanics the ratios will be assumed the same.
12756/838 = 15.22195704
Please note that I chose the earth for the ratio arbitrarily, as a low end figure. I could have chosen jupiter.
Now taking that the dwarfed kinetic energy was 21.8 exatons, and the ratio between dwarf and a mid sized planet is 15.22.
The knietic force output of that much larger star coronal mass ejection can be:
21.8×15.22 = 331.796 exatons of kinetic energy. Once again remeber this calculation is not taking into account thermal or other radiation energy.
The ship survived that without the shield collapsing for a considerable time.
Now I’m unsure of 40k ship weapon output calcs, but can they surpass that?
-
Just some info I fished up from other Sg debates here on factpile.
-
To take shaun182′s information on the go’uld mothership vs covenent cruiser thread.
-
we have a mothership with:
“A) Fighter/Carrier complement: 12 wings of deathgliders, 3 wings of alkesh bombers
B) Propulsion technology FTL: 32,000 times the speed of light
C) Sublight acceleration: unknown
D) Standard engagement range: close range within a few kilometres of one another
E) Weaponry effective range:unknown however can hit precise targets from high orbit
F) Firepower: 200 megaton from 60 staff cannons, as well as unknown amount of point defense weapons.
G) Shielding: 260 gigatons
H) Durability: on average, can survive a few 200 megaton shots without shields
I) Sensors: can detect multiple energy signatures, track ftl objects
J) Power generation: naquadah reactor produces unkown amount of energy.”
-
For this all weapons systems will be done in damage per second. meaning I take the energy output the recycle time to find teh average energy output across a battle.
-
Ok so asgard shields powered by a ZPM came to at least 331.796 exatons. Far more if I’d calculated the radiation and heat.
-
Go’uld Ha’tak, is looking at 200megatons and 60 weapons. For a total of 12gigatons. factoring a recycle rate of 5 seconds. We come out with 2.4 Gigatons per second.
We also know the go’uld Ha’tak has shields taking 260 gigatons.
-
Haveing go’uld shield strength, allows us to find the power of ori weapons. Works out at, as stated above. 26 terratons for an ori beam. With a recycle rate of 3 seconds we get 8.67 terratons per second.
We also know it takes 10 of the smaller defence weapons to collapse a ha’taks shield. giving an output per shot of 26 gigatons. The ten were fired from the rear quarter of the vessel over slightly more then a second. Assuming an even spread around teh vessel, full power output from those weapons is 1.04 terratons per second.
Overall giving an ori mothership a total firepower of 9.7 terratons per second. (about 4,000 times stronger then a ha’tak, no wonder they done so bad in the series).
-
Next we can use the ori beam strength to calculate naquada powered asgard shields. Taking 3 ori beams to drop naquada powered asgard shields gives us a resilience of 78 terratons. (So ZPM’s make them about 4billion times more powerful)
-
Next, to find out the power of go’uld mines which they flew into once. We see it took 7 mines to take down the asgard shields. Putting the mines at 11.14 terratons per mine.
-
Next we can use the asgard naquada powered shields to calculate wraith weapon strength. Wraith took them down with 19 hive ship shots. So 4.11 terratons per shot. At full output a hive ship shoots 14 times per second, though not with all that impressive accuracy. Giving a hive ship 54.47 terratons of firepower per second.(More then ori interestingly)
-
Now we have to find out how long a hive can survive under known weapons fire. Using the episode “The Queen” we can see it lasts 84 seconds before shepard shows up to use drones on it. though it would undoubtably would have lasted longer we can use that as a weakest case, so as to be able to continue our calculations. Hive ships have as seen above fire rates of 54.47 terratons per second. Meaning the hive sustained 4,575.48 Terratons (4.58 petatons) of damage before shepard showed up. Though a low estimate as it doesnt include teh drone strikes, its good enough to continue from.
-
Next, wraith ships take at best 3 asgard beams to take down. 4,575.48/ 3 = 1,525.16 terratons (1.52 petatons) per beam. Each earth cruiser has four such beam emmitters with recycle time of about 2 seconds. Giving earth cruisers an output on beam weapons, of 3.05 petatons per second.
-
We also know it takes 5 asgaurd beams to take out an ori mothership. So ori motherships can take 7.63 petatons of damage.
-
We also saw an aurora class ship take 6 asgard beam sto the hull before being destroyed, putting its hull armour at 9.15 petatons. We have no way to get its shields, as far as i can tell. However ancient zpm powered shields are comparable to asgard zpm powered shields. So its likly in the same range.”
-
(Dashes added by me for readability)
-
“Well then you can’t measure it in explosive force, i.e. petatons. A prefix-ton is the force behind a ton-amount of TNT. This is an incompatible comparison.”
I believe they’re just being used as a stand-in unit to represent the amount of energy behind stuff. It’s easier to use tons than something joules for Stargate since that’s the unit we get all the canon numbers in; we don’t need to make any conversions.
“50% the speed of light was specifically stated in season 6 episode 11 “Prometheus”:”
-
That would give us an excellent way to judge how long it took them to get to the star then, wouldn’t it? If we only knew how long it took to accelerate to that speed.
-
““I think these should be taken in to consideration, although I understand that sci-fi tends to have fluctuating strength levels for a lot of things over time.”
-
-
“If the upgrades are still there I don’t see why they wouldn’t be used.”
-
They are still there.”
-
There is a gap there where it appears you forgot to put in a point that you intended to make. Just thought I’d point it out so you can make it if you had actually intended to.
-
“The Daedalus’s fighter craft are largely pointless in this fight, they are simply too weak.”
-
They looked pretty damned maneuverable to me. Are you saying they won’t be able to do anything at all? Because that’s what it would take to be regarded as pointless.
-
“But these are unlikely to get through a flak screen, which is why it is much easier for the Daedalus to just beam those straight on-board the Quarter and destroy it from the inside.”
-
It is my understanding that it either can not or simply does not do this as part of its combat strategies any longer. If this is due to them being jammed, then I’m skeptical that they’ll realize that this is an option in any short period of time. Unless this sort of thing has happened to them before.
-
We don’t have a speed for the plasma beams but since Stargate ships are apparently much faster than the Macross ones (by significant percentage of light speed) I don’t think it really matters.
-
Delta V’s for Macross ships are probably much lower because I believe they use propellant instead of the directed-energy method that Stargate uses, limiting how long they can accelerate, and they probably rarely reach their delta-V due to their use of space folds for long range travel and sub-light engines for mainly combat, but maneuverability is vastly more important than linear speed in this case. A ship which is going two times the speed of light still is an easier target than a simple Valkyrie fighter from the original Macross because you can know where to shoot to hit them as long as you have means of detecting them. It pretty much boils down to that. So yes, the velocity of the attack matters a lot. Especially considering standard combat speeds in Stargate as well, which are much lower than traveling speeds, probably because it takes so much more energy to change direction drastically at high speeds that they become a much easier target if they just try to joust with each other, combined with the fact that they often seem to have trouble accelerating to a safe escape distance once under fire. That or their acceleration isn’t all that great initially.
-
Do any of the Macross ships have beaming/teleportation technology? If so do they have the technology to block beaming? And if so, does this ship have it?
-
Macross ships use a form of teleportation not unlike Night Crawler from X-Men, using space-fold technology to transport themselves through super dimension space via swapping of real space and super dimension space. They only use this for larger vessels, such as the Quarter, however. So They can’t slip a bomb through dimensions on to the Deadalus.
-
“If the answer to any of those questions is no then the Daedalus can win this simply by tanking there main weapons and beaming a nuke inside the Macrosss Quarter.”
-
Assuming this is their main strategy, and assuming the Quarter can’t hurt the Daedalus, it seems to still be an extremely bad plan due to the MDE’s.
-
“However:
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uehxUjACIsc
-
At 0:40 seconds it shows a full missile salvo and the damage just a on (or is it a few?) do to a Wraith Hive ship.”
-
The explosion from those missiles didn’t seem particularly powerful to put the Wraith ships at level that’s being claimed. Later in the video the plasma beams get used a lot, and outside of rapid firings of them in an attempt to saturate the general area I see them having a hard time ever touching the Quarter.
“Next we can use the asgard naquada powered shields to calculate wraith weapon strength. Wraith took them down with 19 hive ship shots. So 4.11 terratons per shot. At full output a hive ship shoots 14 times per second, though not with all that impressive accuracy. Giving a hive ship 54.47 terratons of firepower per second.(More then ori interestingly)”
-
If the bad asgard tech was not as good as the good asgard tech, this seems like not a good way to determine Wraith ship power. Outside of the ZPM powered shields, which are moot to this debate, the other calculations I am not convinced of. There also doesn’t seem to be any cross checking to make sure the calculations are correct, such as looking as the effects of weapons against other things.. such as the ground.. We know drones for instance get used an awful lot, and have hit a lot of things. I notice in the video you sent, three drones were used to take out a small wraith ship. Which ship is that, and what other weapons have been used to take it down? Are there conflicting scenes? Once we have a rough idea of the energy it takes to bring down the little ship with conventional weapons, if that ever happens, then we have an idea of how strong drones are. Or we can go a different route. There just doesn’t seem to be a lot of checking going on.
With the CME, did the ship tank the entire thing? (which I highly doubt), because if it didn’t, then those shield calcs don’t mean anything.
-
On top of that, can we see these attacks used on something like Earth? It’s one thing for a fan to come up with a calc based on some assumptions, and quite another to have a feat behind it.
@Sauroposeidon
-
“That would give us an excellent way to judge how long it took them to get to the star then, wouldn’t it? If we only knew how long it took to accelerate to that speed.”
-
I am slightly curious as to why the time taken to reach the star matters?
-
Unless it is specifically to do with rigging up to the ZPM to the ships power supply in which case it doesn’t really matter since I don’t think the Daedalus has one for this fight.
–
“There is a gap there where it appears you forgot to put in a point that you intended to make. Just thought I’d point it out so you can make it if you had actually intended to.”
-
Yes there is, thanks. However I have completely forgotten what it was!
-
It was probably something regarding the power creep on the Ha’tak’s being un-calculable despite knowing that it has happened from explicit statements.
–
“They looked pretty damned maneuverable to me. Are you saying they won’t be able to do anything at all? Because that’s what it would take to be regarded as pointless.”
-
Perhaps not so ‘useless’ on the maneuverability front. But there are only 8 of them. They each have only 4 missiles and and 2 railguns, apparently I thought they were just heavy machine guns but hey. They have no special defences.
-
From the videos you have linked they seem pretty outmatched. The F-302′s are only designed for fighter interception and the Daedalus can afford to ignore the fighter’s being launched against it, that is why I said they would be useless. Not because they couldn’t do something but because in the larger picture they are too far down on the power scale.
-
I added this after writing the above:
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7A5IHP69Vk&feature=related#t=9m13s
-
Perhaps not quite as useless as I thought but still, they won’t be a turning point in this fight.
–
“It is my understanding that it either can not or simply does not do this as part of its combat strategies any longer. If this is due to them being jammed, then I’m skeptical that they’ll realize that this is an option in any short period of time. Unless this sort of thing has happened to them before.”
-
Normally they wouldn’t try to beam things on-board because they can’t beam through shields. They tried it with the Wraith, since they don’t use shields, almost as soon as they could. The Wraith developed their counter only after a few Hive ships had been destroyed, at which point the Tau’ri spent a long time trying to circumvent the Wraith jamming with some limited success.
-
They also attempted to beam a weapon through the Ori Mothership shields as it fired it’s main weapon.
-
Though they didn’t use the Asgard transport beams to do it, the Tau’ri also planted a bomb inside the ZPM powered Wraith Hive. They used C-4 inside one of Apophis’s ship’s to disable it’s shields in one of the earlier episodes.
-
The point I’m trying to make is that before they gained the Asgard plasma beam weapons beaming nukes onto ships was one of their standard attacks. They have used the tactic on many occasions, sometimes successfully sometimes not. Throughout Stargate’s history they have used the sabotage tactic of planting a big bomb or explosives quite regularly. Beaming a bomb on-board is just the latest in a long line of methods and attempts to do this.
–
“Delta V’s for Macross ships are probably much lower because I believe they use propellant instead of the directed-energy method that Stargate uses, limiting how long they can accelerate, and they probably rarely reach their delta-V due to their use of space folds for long range travel and sub-light engines for mainly combat, but maneuverability is vastly more important than linear speed in this case. A ship which is going two times the speed of light still is an easier target than a simple Valkyrie fighter from the original Macross because you can know where to shoot to hit them as long as you have means of detecting them. It pretty much boils down to that. So yes, the velocity of the attack matters a lot. Especially considering standard combat speeds in Stargate as well, which are much lower than traveling speeds, probably because it takes so much more energy to change direction drastically at high speeds that they become a much easier target if they just try to joust with each other, combined with the fact that they often seem to have trouble accelerating to a safe escape distance once under fire. That or their acceleration isn’t all that great initially.”
-
I don’t quite understand the: “A ship which is going two times the speed of light still is an easier target than a simple Valkyrie fighter from the original Macross because you can know where to shoot to hit them as long as you have means of detecting them.” bit.
-
I don’t think you meant “two times the speed of light” since nothing in this fight can break light speed. The 304 can be travelling at 50% light speed in sublight or using hyperdrive to travel through subspace (without a ZPM) 5952 light years per hour. But never faster than light in real space.
-
Also 304′s aren’t that bad at changing directing in battle:
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7A5IHP69Vk&feature=related#t=8m27s
-
That said I see your point, I am not convinced that it would matter that much since the Daedalus has 360 cover in all axis’s with the Asgard Plasma Beam weapons.
-
There is another reason why I don’t think maneuverability is that important in this fight; the two ships start out of weapons range (well, it is within Daedalus’s range but not the Macross range as far as I can tell) the Daedalus could turn around and put some distance between the two ships, then turn around and being performing 50% light speed strafing runs.
-
Regardless of whether or not the Macross ship can detect them coming, unless they have been shown getting a weapon lock and hitting something travelling a 50% the speed of light I don’t think it is safe to assume they can.
–
“Macross ships use a form of teleportation not unlike Night Crawler from X-Men, using space-fold technology to transport themselves through super dimension space via swapping of real space and super dimension space. They only use this for larger vessels, such as the Quarter, however. So They can’t slip a bomb through dimensions on to the Deadalus.”
-
Do they have any technology that can prevent this teleportation?
–
“Assuming this is their main strategy, and assuming the Quarter can’t hurt the Daedalus, it seems to still be an extremely bad plan due to the MDE’s.”
-
From what you said earlier these MDE’s ignore physical armour? How do they react to energy shields? Because they would have to take those down first.
–
“The explosion from those missiles didn’t seem particularly powerful to put the Wraith ships at level that’s being claimed.”
-
Huh? Not sure what you mean.
-
I just showed that bit to show how powerful the tactical nuke missiles the Daedalus were. What sort of power level were you expecting from the Wraith?
-
“Later in the video the plasma beams get used a lot, and outside of rapid firings of them in an attempt to saturate the general area I see them having a hard time ever touching the Quarter.”
-
True but using the 50% light speed strafing method I described above (unless you came up with an example of the Quarter hitting ships travelling at that speed) they would only have to hit once given the power behind the plasma beams, and given the low chances of being hit in return and the power of the Daedalus’s shields they would essentially be able to try again and again until they win.
-
Also even if they do get hit and the shields go down or are reduced enough to cause concern, there is no time limit on this fight and the entire Hoth system can be used (though leaving it constitutes a loss) given the Tau’ri ships speed advantage they could either use sublight speeds to keep away from the Quarter or make a hyperspace jump to the other side of the system and allow their shields to recharge before returning to the fight.
–
Though I did think of another Tau’ri weapon that would be useful.
-
The Mk IX Naquadah enhanced nuke known as the ‘Gatebuster’. A single one has an explosive radius of 100miles. A 304 carries a few of these.
-
Multiple Gatebusters being used on a planet:
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikgRbhLChdg
-
That was the Horizon weapon system, 6 Gatebusters and some decoys. That was fired from the Appolo.
-
The Daedalus used the Gatebuster some time later during the events of “The Shroud” to destroy the gate orbiting the black hole.
-
Beam a few, or even just one, of these into the area surrounding the Macross ship and detonate them at the same time. Given the Quarters slow acceleration it is unlikely they could escape the blast.
—-
@Aelfinn
-
“With the CME, did the ship tank the entire thing? (which I highly doubt), because if it didn’t, then those shield calcs don’t mean anything.”
-
I’ll give you the transcript first for background info and then the video:
-
“McKAY: It’s an Ancient science vessel. About fifteen thousand years ago, it ran into some trouble. The entire crew was killed except for the pilot.
WEIR: The burned man. Teyla noticed the uniform. He was an Ancient pilot.
McKAY: Which would explain the burns.
ZELENKA: What does?
SHEPPARD: The ship got hit by a blast of radiation from the sun.
McKAY: It’s a coronal mass ejection on a scale that dwarfs anything our sun has ever emitted. Apparently the sun in this solar system goes through an unusually turbulent sunspot cycle every fifteen thousand years or so. The Ancients have records of this class of C.M.E. occurring twice before.
SHEPPARD: The ship was very close to the sun when it happened.
McKAY: It’s a massive prominence. It arced up and then collapsed when the magnetic field surrounding it weakened. We’re talking an intense proton stream travelling at over four thousand kilometres per second.
SHEPPARD: Most of the crew was killed instantly but the pilot managed to open up a hyperspace window just as they were hit. He flew the ship back here, jumping ahead of the radiation wave just in time to warn everyone.
McKAY: The Ancients were able to raise the shield and extend it far enough to protect a large portion of the planet from the blast.
WEIR: So what are you telling me? This is going to happen soon?
McKAY: Not soon. It’s happening right now.
(He turns the screen of his laptop towards her. It shows a prominence curling out from the edge of the sun.)”
-
And, this just to counter the claim that it wasn’t a CME because CME’s spread out (this has come up before):
-
“McKAY: OK, listen to me. (He picks up his computer tablet and starts to draw on its screen.) This … (he draws a big circle in the bottom right hand corner) … this is the sun; and this … (he draws a small squiggle in the top left hand corner) … this is us.
(John frowns at the drawing as he puts the Z.P.M. into its case.)
McKAY: A bolt of energy unlike anything you could possibly comprehend is gonna shoot out of the photosphere at a tremendous velocity, OK? (He draws a line coming out of the sun and heading towards the dot depicting Atlantis.) It is immediately gonna start fanning out … (he draws lots of lines fanning out in different directions from the line) … like so.
SHEPPARD (impatiently): I know.
(He goes over to the power console and bends down to retrieve something.)
McKAY (drawing a curve across the emission line to depict Daedalus’ shield): Which means that we will have to be really close to the surface of the sun if we wanna intercept that stream and deflect it before it can start spreading out.
SHEPPARD (popping back up into view for a moment): I know, Rodney! (He bends down again.)
McKAY: No, no, I don’t think you do. I don’t think you fully grasp the reality of just how damned hot it gets that close to the surface of the sun.
(John has retrieved a small device from the console and comes across to the case with it.)
SHEPPARD: That’s why we’re taking a ZeeP.M. — to strengthen the shields.
McKAY: From the blast wave, yes, but even with the shields at that strength, the build-up of residual heat behind it could cause serious problems for the Daedalus … (he points to himself) … and everyone inside it.
(John puts the device in the case and closes the lid.)
SHEPPARD: “Could.” “Could” cause.
(Rodney sighs.)”
-
And the actual event:
-
“McKAY: The prominence is fully collapsing into the photosphere. Brace yourselves.
(He grabs his tablet and starts working on it. On the sun’s surface, the emission bursts out and heads into space. John stares.)
SHEPPARD: Rodney?
McKAY: ZedP.M. is online.
(The emission heads towards Daedalus and impacts its shields, which deflect it away in all directions. Caldwell squints as the bright light envelops the shields and the ship vibrates under the strain.)
CALDWELL: How long will this last, Doctor?
McKAY: Anywhere from a few seconds to several hours.
SHEPPARD: Hours?! You never said anything about hours!
CALDWELL: We’re building up serious heat behind the shield.
McKAY (plaintively): I told you this wasn’t a good plan!
ATLANTIS CONTROL ROOM. Ronon is looking at a laptop with Radek. Both of them look strained from the consistent headaches.
DEX: How’re they doing?
ZELENKA: Well, according to my calculations, the blast wave should have hit us by now but I’m reading no discernable increase in radiation.
(Ronon stares at him. Finally Radek realises that he’s staring and turns to look at him.)
DEX: So they’re doing good?
(Radek smiles.)
ZELENKA: Yes. So far, anyway.
SPACE. The emission continues to blast Daedalus’ shields. Rodney is looking at readouts on his tablet.
McKAY: Temperature inside the shield’s rising too fast. I’m already detecting several failed sensors on the bow.
CALDWELL: If this thing keeps going, the heat build-up could damage the hull.
McKAY: Not “could.” It’s already damaging it.
(An alarm beeps.)
McKAY: We have a breach in the 302 Bay.
(Caldwell turns to his right-hand man [not Kleinman -- is he on vacation somewhere sunny? I bet it’s not as sunny as this is!])
CALDWELL: Seal it off.
(The man complies. From an external viewpoint we see the wall of the 302 Bay rupture and debris spill out. In the shield room, another alarm beeps.)
McKAY: Another breach. Deck four — we’re venting atmosphere.
(John and Caldwell stare grimly, unable to do anything. A few seconds later, the emission fades and the light level on the Bridge diminishes somewhat.)
SHEPPARD: Rodney?
(He walks nervously towards the front of the Bridge. In the shield room, Rodney stares in surprise.)
McKAY: It’s over.
SHEPPARD: And we’re not toast.
McKAY: We’re not toast!
SHEPPARD: Good plan, huh?”
-
And the clip:
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiJ_za1uPXQ&t=2m18s
-
So yes it tanked the whole thing.
-
The ship didn’t move whilst being hit so all the KE was withstood even if it wasn’t dissipated and the thermal energy was reduced to the point where it didn’t do any significant damage to the ships systems.
—-
@Aelfinn & Sauroposeidon
-
I’ll address both your final points together since they were essentially the same thing. Namely asking for example’s of the weapons being as powerful as claimed (roughly speaking anyway).
-
The weapon strengths for various races were calced directly from the CME feat. I broke down the shield strengths for the 304 at the various points during the show on post 4229 and 4230 on this page www.factpile.com/5524-warhammer-40k-vs-stargate/comment-page-43/#comments
-
I won’t repost the whole thing because it will make this already lengthy post even more so.
-
SG-1 ‘Camelot’ – 304 Shield Strength = 7.95 Petatons
-
Explanation – 8.5% of 46.762 Petatons, the amount of damage done by 1 Ori blast, would be 50% of the ‘Camelot’ era 304 shields, which where depleted by 2 shots so twice 8.5% will be the full amount.
-
-
SG-1 ‘Unending’ – 304 ZPM Shield Strength = 46.762 Petatons
-
Explanation – This is simply the CME figure.
-
-
SG-1 ‘The Ark of Truth’ – 304 ZPM Shield Strength = 572.367 Petatons
-
Explanation – As per ‘The Ark of Truth’ figures this is 12.24 times the CME figure.
-
-
For clarity the episode ‘Unending’ was where the Tau’ri were given the shield technology they used to tank the CME.
-
I recommend that you read those posts in full because they go over all the details and because these are where the weapon strengths come from so understanding where the figures come from will be useful.
–
Sauro, you raised the question of how powerful the drones are (stemming from the incident in the first episode of Atlantis where Sheppard uses three on one drone).
-
Individual drones are capable of this:
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9fBUAxla18
-
However their main strength is not brute strength but instead is that they can bypass shields and burrow through hulls in order to reach critical systems. They are smart ‘missiles’ and will actively avoid things trying to intercept them on their own. They can also be actively controlled with great precision by someone with the Ancient gene using a control chair.
-
Bypassing shields and burrowing through matter:
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXuaCaLmtX8
-
This was the first time they were shown in the show and as such they aren’t quite consistent in either size or firepower (as in, later in the show far fewer drones could have done the same) but I think we can get over this.
-
A single drone penetrating the shields and hull of an upgraded Ha’tak:
-
And I can’t find the clip anywhere online but here are some stills from the episode:
-
www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=92871&fullsize=1
www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=92874&fullsize=1
www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=92875&fullsize=1
www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=92880&fullsize=1
www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=92882&fullsize=1
www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=92883&fullsize=1
-
You can see all of them here:
-
www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=175&pid=92871#top_display_media
-
Avoiding interception:
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uehxUjACIsc#t=0m55s
-
Same clip from earlier but different part.
–
The small Wraith ship taken out by three drones was a Dart ( stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Wraith_Dart ). They are small, one man, unshielded fighters. A single drone would have sufficed but three were either used for dramatic effect (and the way they spiralled together was pretty) or ignorance on Sheppard’s part (the man who fired three of them) as I believe that was the first time he had flown a Puddle Jumper (the cylindrical ship firing the drones)
-
Wraith Dart’s can be taken down by railgun, a single missile, drone. They aren’t designed to be durable.
-
I don’t quite understand the sudden interest in Wraith ships and Ancient Drone weapons though Sauro. Neither have much to do with the Daedalus. But hopefully these clips provide some insight. But please do bear in mind that Ancient Drones are not designed to be effective through raw firepower, but instead by ignoring armour and shields to deliver the damage via precision hits to key systems
–
Final bit!
-
Aelfinn, Stargate energy weapons don’t make a explosion relative to the power of the energy weapon when they hit something.
-
In one episode Carter says that the shots coming from a Ha’tak in orbit, after attenuating through the magnetic field and atmosphere, have energy equal to 200megatons of TNT. But they don’t explode like a nuclear device, so comparing weapon damage based on visual effects is hit and miss. Going by stated facts is more useful.
“I am slightly curious as to why the time taken to reach the star matters?”
-
It doesn’t.. I just like ships and robots so I tend to talk about those things because it interests me and I’d like to know.
-
“Perhaps not so ‘useless’ on the maneuverability front. But there are only 8 of them. They each have only 4 missiles and and 2 railguns, apparently I thought they were just heavy machine guns but hey. They have no special defences.”
-
I thought it had a lot more than that.. damn.
-
“Perhaps not quite as useless as I thought but still, they won’t be a turning point in this fight.”
-
I’m used to carriers having dozens of fighters, and I just assumed Daedalus had such. Perhaps if they were more numerous..but.. damn.
-
“Normally they wouldn’t try to beam things on-board because they can’t beam through shields. They tried it with the Wraith, since they don’t use shields, almost as soon as they could. The Wraith developed their counter only after a few Hive ships had been destroyed, at which point the Tau’ri spent a long time trying to circumvent the Wraith jamming with some limited success.”
-
The Quarter does employ shields and ECM. Although the ECM is largely provided by one of it’s deployable craft, which also controls the Ghosts.
-
“Do they have any technology that can prevent this teleportation?”
-
Standard tactic to avoid being caught by something trying to teleport you (as it is a localized field effect usually) is to not be in the area where a space fold is happening. It’s very bright so you tend to have time to get the hell out of there if you have a fast enough vehicle. Assuming the Shields and ECM do not have the stopping power, the Quarter is very nimble, so attempting to beam a nuke on board would be like trying to beam a nuke on to a fighter craft.
-
“I don’t quite understand the: “A ship which is going two times the speed of light still is an easier target than a simple Valkyrie fighter from the original Macross because you can know where to shoot to hit them as long as you have means of detecting them.” bit.
-
I don’t think you meant “two times the speed of light” since nothing in this fight can break light speed. The 304 can be travelling at 50% light speed in sublight or using hyperdrive to travel through subspace (without a ZPM) 5952 light years per hour. But never faster than light in real space.”
-
It was an example to explain why striking a fast target in space is not necessarily difficult, while striking an agile one is. It’s not hard to predict something’s path as long as you can find it and then shoot it down.
-
“Regardless of whether or not the Macross ship can detect them coming, unless they have been shown getting a weapon lock and hitting something travelling a 50% the speed of light I don’t think it is safe to assume they can.”
-
The technology for tracking something going that fast exists today. We just have to be able to see it, pretty much. Once we know where it is, how fast its going, and where its going, if one had a means of reaching it, then one could conceivably intercept it. This is why I said we don’t see Stargate ships, or other sci-fi ships, jousting very often. Your relative velocity to the target matters more than anything else, and strafing is pretty much the best possible way to make sure that you’re going to get some flak in return, and your vessel is gonna eat more of it than usual. That and Stargate ships seem to have trouble hitting each other at lower velocities than that, perhaps this is due to relative velocity instead.
-
“There is another reason why I don’t think maneuverability is that important in this fight; the two ships start out of weapons range (well, it is within Daedalus’s range but not the Macross range as far as I can tell) the Daedalus could turn around and put some distance between the two ships, then turn around and being performing 50% light speed strafing runs.”
-
I intentionally began them both at very close range, so they both get a real good damned view of each other before they opt to take cover, open fire, flee, whatever. They are both range of each other.
-
“True but using the 50% light speed strafing method I described above (unless you came up with an example of the Quarter hitting ships travelling at that speed) they would only have to hit once given the power behind the plasma beams, and given the low chances of being hit in return and the power of the Daedalus’s shields they would essentially be able to try again and again until they win.”
-
Because I don’t remember the actual power behind the Quarter’s attacks and shields.. and I don’t feel like going back to find out because it means I’d have to deal with Macross 7, which I don’t really like that much, we’ll have to wait for someone who’s a Macross 7 fan to help determine whether this statement is true. Because I’m still iffy on the current calculations, this statement seems very premature.
-
“From what you said earlier these MDE’s ignore physical armour? How do they react to energy shields? Because they would have to take those down first.”
-
If your’e familiar with 40k’s vortex missiles, MDE’s are like those, but they only effect a 50 kilometer + area, as opposed to a full scale DE bomb which will eat up a good chunk of a planet. It works on the same fold space concept as their FTL travel system but instead of making you travel vast distances it just consumes and destroys everything with in the field of effect. In other word, if you’re in the field of effect, you die. You must get outside the field of effect to not be consumed.
-
“Huh? Not sure what you mean.
-
I just showed that bit to show how powerful the tactical nuke missiles the Daedalus were. What sort of power level were you expecting from the Wraith?”
-
I’m used to fleet consuming nuclear explosions when I see nukes in sci-fi. The explosions just didn’t seem large enough to be on a nuke level. Are you sure those were not normal missiles? And my point was that judging from the missiles, the Wraith don’t seem to be as likely to have the petaton level durability that I’ve seen suggested.
-
“Also even if they do get hit and the shields go down or are reduced enough to cause concern, there is no time limit on this fight and the entire Hoth system can be used (though leaving it constitutes a loss) given the Tau’ri ships speed advantage they could either use sublight speeds to keep away from the Quarter or make a hyperspace jump to the other side of the system and allow their shields to recharge before returning to the fight.”
-
There is every indication that if the Quarter wished to press the battle, it could space fold to the Daedalus’ position.
-
“Though I did think of another Tau’ri weapon that would be useful.
-
The Mk IX Naquadah enhanced nuke known as the ‘Gatebuster’. A single one has an explosive radius of 100miles. A 304 carries a few of these.”
-
For whatever reason, I was under the impression that these are their standard nukes, and that all of their nukes were naquadah enhanced.
-
“Beam a few, or even just one, of these into the area surrounding the Macross ship and detonate them at the same time. Given the Quarters slow acceleration it is unlikely they could escape the blast.”
-
The Quarter is not particularly slow, and nothing has been given to show that the Daedalus has faster acceleration at this point..
-
“So yes it tanked the whole thing.
-
The ship didn’t move whilst being hit so all the KE was withstood even if it wasn’t dissipated and the thermal energy was reduced to the point where it didn’t do any significant damage to the ships systems.
”
-
Not to burst your bubble, but that doesn’t count as the shields tanking it. The ship did take some damage.
-
“In one episode Carter says that the shots coming from a Ha’tak in orbit, after attenuating through the magnetic field and atmosphere, have energy equal to 200megatons of TNT. But they don’t explode like a nuclear device, so comparing weapon damage based on visual effects is hit and miss. Going by stated facts is more useful.”
-
While I agree, I have to wonder how she came to that conclusion, and if in fact her statement was proven correct. It seems like a lot of the non-canon numbers we’re running with are all based on singular instances with no cross checking though, which I think is vital. By your own admission there are inconsistencies. If I missed something, I’m sorry, but I’m being interrupted, repeatedly, by Lancer.. so.. yeah. Train of thought gone. =(
“I didn’t know there were evil asgard… Although this doesn’t explain how we know they have such ridiculously high shields considering they do get chewed up all the time.”
-
Eh, whose shields are you talking about? The wraith don’t have shields, and asgard shields have stood up to anything shy of ori, replicator and wraith.
-
“Have you considered that they might just be improving their technology? And I’m guessing the measurement you took was from the nearest episode to the episode where their shield strength was stated?”
-
Oh ye, the goauld did improve their technology. First from the upgrade which let them tank tollan ion cannons (which used to one shot them) to an upgrade which let Ha’taks take on asgard brisingner (or however you spell it) to the upgrades Anubis slapped in, and so on. My calcs where based upon an early season showing, before these upgrades, so the numbers for everyone else are low end. They’d jump up considerably if I could figure out how the upgrades to the ha’tak improved it.
-
“I think these should be taken in to consideration, although I understand that sci-fi tends to have fluctuating strength levels for a lot of things over time.”
-
It would just mean my numbers are too low in some cases. And since I cant remember scenes off the top of my head which would allow me to calc the upgraded Ha’taks shields with any accuracy its probably gonna have to stay this way.
-
“They looked pretty damned maneuverable to me. Are you saying they won’t be able to do anything at all? Because that’s what it would take to be regarded as pointless.”
-
They just carry normal missiles and some sort of automatic cannon. So they pale compared to the other weapon systems for the most part.
-
“It is my understanding that it either can not or simply does not do this as part of its combat strategies any longer. If this is due to them being jammed, then I’m skeptical that they’ll realize that this is an option in any short period of time. Unless this sort of thing has happened to them before.”
-
The wraith figured out how to jam the beams. Seeing as they fought the ancients, chances are they had figured out in the past how to stop people beaming stuff into their ships.
-
“The explosion from those missiles didn’t seem particularly powerful to put the Wraith ships at level that’s being claimed. Later in the video the plasma beams get used a lot, and outside of rapid firings of them in an attempt to saturate the general area I see them having a hard time ever touching the Quarter.”
-
I cant actually remember that fight, but did that even take down the wraith ship?
-
“If the bad asgard tech was not as good as the good asgard tech, this seems like not a good way to determine Wraith ship power. Outside of the ZPM powered shields, which are moot to this debate, the other calculations I am not convinced of. There also doesn’t seem to be any cross checking to make sure the calculations are correct, such as looking as the effects of weapons against other things.. such as the ground.. We know drones for instance get used an awful lot, and have hit a lot of things. I notice in the video you sent, three drones were used to take out a small wraith ship. Which ship is that, and what other weapons have been used to take it down? Are there conflicting scenes? Once we have a rough idea of the energy it takes to bring down the little ship with conventional weapons, if that ever happens, then we have an idea of how strong drones are. Or we can go a different route. There just doesn’t seem to be a lot of checking going on.”
-
Drones don’t detonate, they burrow through ships to their critical systems and destroy them. So chances are the drone to burrowed into the hives reactor. Also how can that not be a good way? The shots where against a 304’s shield which had already been calculated.
-
“With the CME, did the ship tank the entire thing? (which I highly doubt), because if it didn’t, then those shield calcs don’t mean anything.”
-
First off, I made a mistake on those calcs, reaper has a more accurate one. Second yes it tanked the whole CME.
“Well then you can’t measure it in explosive force, i.e. petatons. A prefix-ton is the force behind a ton-amount of TNT. This is an incompatible comparison.”
.
This is incorrect. The tonne is the measurement of energy released compared to the amount of energy released from a ton of TNT. So in essence, it would be perfectly acceptable to measure the energy of a baseball flying through the air in tons. Tons is much easier to visualize than Joules, which is why we use it.
“Eh, whose shields are you talking about? The wraith don’t have shields, and asgard shields have stood up to anything shy of ori, replicator and wraith.”
-
Wraith, I just got used to using the word shields so I mistakingly used it instead of armor.
-
“Oh ye, the goauld did improve their technology. First from the upgrade which let them tank tollan ion cannons (which used to one shot them) to an upgrade which let Ha’taks take on asgard brisingner (or however you spell it) to the upgrades Anubis slapped in, and so on. My calcs where based upon an early season showing, before these upgrades, so the numbers for everyone else are low end. They’d jump up considerably if I could figure out how the upgrades to the ha’tak improved it.”
-
I don’t care what way the numbers go, I just think they should be taken from the closest instance to the time their stats being mentioned as possible.
-
“They just carry normal missiles and some sort of automatic cannon. So they pale compared to the other weapon systems for the most part.”
-
*sigh* It is apparently more difficult to pit two carriers against each other than I thought.
-
“First off, I made a mistake on those calcs, reaper has a more accurate one. Second yes it tanked the whole CME.”
-
Nooo it did not. The ship as a whole tanked it. The ZPM enhanced shields alone did not. This may not seem particularly important, but it is to someone like me, who would otherwise assume ZPM enhanced shields would be able to tank that.
-
“Drones don’t detonate, they burrow through ships to their critical systems and destroy them. So chances are the drone to burrowed into the hives reactor. Also how can that not be a good way? The shots where against a 304’s shield which had already been calculated.”
-
Because the calculations appear to all be rooted from one mentioning of Hatak power levels and apparently this CME instance if I’m reading the posts correctly. Once the foundation is set, singular calculations are made with no attempt to cross check to see if they’re even right. There’s a lot of assuming going on. If there is a power creep, and the Hataks do get more powerful, you should see if it takes considerably more to bring them down as the series progresses. This should be checked to see if there’s a canon reason for this or if they’re just retconing and adjusting things to more closely fit their “vision” of how stargate should be. If it doesn’t take more to bring them down, are you sure they’re actually increasing in power? Perhaps instead it actually takes fewer attacks to bring them down over time, in an attempt to make the snakes that they are suffer some villain decay and give the impression that the humans are obtaining better and better performance out of their equipment through tuning and enhancement all the time.
Another durability feat, with out using the shield or pin point barrier system. The Quarter deflects a shot from the Macross Galaxy. Galaxy I believe was originally Battle 21, which makes it part of the same New Macross Class line as Frontier (Battle 25) and Macross 7 (Battle 7). The end result is their gun is too damage to fire, however.
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIGoCbOSH_M
-
Beyond this, the Galaxy fleet was extremely tech oriented, with a lot of research and production facilities. Following the attack on the head the Quarter engaged in a Macross Attack to disable the Galaxy’s gun.
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slqa30DSSKE
-
It was clearly going to fire again. Normally a New Macross class ship will only fire.. I think once an hour? So the Galaxy is clearly massively enhanced to be able to fire again so quickly, as both of these happened not just in the same episode but in the same scene if I recall. While it’s impossible to quantify Galaxy’s main gun due to its enhancements and rarely seen use, we can safely judge that it is almost definitely stronger than a standard New Macross’ main gun. So we can safely say that aside from the bridge, the Quarter’s hull can safely take a hit that is equal to or somewhat greater than Battle 7′s main gun with out risk of the ship as a whole being completely destroyed, although which ever sub ship is struck may not be functional if the Quarter attempts to break apart.
“Nooo it did not. The ship as a whole tanked it. The ZPM enhanced shields alone did not. This may not seem particularly important, but it is to someone like me, who would otherwise assume ZPM enhanced shields would be able to tank that.”
-
No, it did. The shields never failed. There was some thermal bleed through because Asgard shields can attenuate slightly under constant heavy bombardment (such as a CME). However all the KE, which was the calculation, was stopped by the shield.
-
“Because the calculations appear to all be rooted from one mentioning of Hatak power levels and apparently this CME instance if I’m reading the posts correctly. Once the foundation is set, singular calculations are made with no attempt to cross check to see if they’re even right. There’s a lot of assuming going on. If there is a power creep, and the Hataks do get more powerful, you should see if it takes considerably more to bring them down as the series progresses. This should be checked to see if there’s a canon reason for this or if they’re just retconing and adjusting things to more closely fit their “vision” of how stargate should be. If it doesn’t take more to bring them down, are you sure they’re actually increasing in power? Perhaps instead it actually takes fewer attacks to bring them down over time, in an attempt to make the snakes that they are suffer some villain decay and give the impression that the humans are obtaining better and better performance out of their equipment through tuning and enhancement all the time.”
-
The CME instance has no bearing on the rest of the calculations. You realise all the points you brought up there just mean my Calculations are low end? Something which I already noted. We also pointed out to you there is no known way to quantify the increase in Ha’tak power levels. If you can think of one, be my guest. All the increases in Ha’tak power are plot driven, with goauld either stealing technology to improve their own, or occasionally thinking some new stuff up themselves. They do however get more powerful as the series progresses, there is no villain decay. Mainly as the tauri increase in power and destabilised the system lords, they had a load more wars which drove innovation.
Sauro, you seem to be misunderstanding the nature of the Ha’tak figures.
-
The Ha’tak speed, minimum shield strength and minimum weapon strength are not calculations. These are all stated explicitly in the show. And as Cananatra and me have said on multiple occasions there are several occasions during the show when major increases to Ha’tak power occurs. However since we have no calculable feats or in show statements after these upgrades we can’t make a guess as to their new strengths hence why we have to stick with the low-end obsolete estimates with added caveat that there have been significant upgrades done since these applied.
-
Furthermore these figures have nothing whatsoever to do with the figures for the Wraith, Ori and Tau’ri calcs which all relate directly to the CME incident.
–
“This should be checked to see if there’s a canon reason for this or if they’re just retconing and adjusting things to more closely fit their “vision” of how stargate should be. If it doesn’t take more to bring them down, are you sure they’re actually increasing in power? Perhaps instead it actually takes fewer attacks to bring them down over time, in an attempt to make the snakes that they are suffer some villain decay and give the impression that the humans are obtaining better and better performance out of their equipment through tuning and enhancement all the time.”
-
Yes the Ha’taks are canonically stated to get better. It isn’t just some un-spoken rule that let them get more powerful there were in show reasons.
-
Canonical upgrade 1:
-
Technology: Hyperdrive
Episode: SG-1 Season 1 Episode 22 “Within the Serpents Grasp”
Explanation: Apophis’s ship travels to Earth far faster than Teal’c says it should have, Ha’tak speed was given at 10c and would take a year to arrive at Earth, it actually arrived within a few hours and both Teal’c and Carter explicitly stated the upgrade.
N.B. I include this because it is an upgrade but one that we never truly appreciate because we never see Ha’tak’s without this upgrade.
-
Canonical upgrade 2:
-
Technology: Shielding
Episode: SG-1 Season 3 Episode 15 “Pretense”
Explanation: Tollan Ion cannons had for centuries been able to one shot a Ha’tak. They are now non-effective. Though it remains to be seen if this is a singular resistance or a more general enhancement.
-
Canonical upgrade 3:
-
Technology: Shielding and Weapons
Episode: SG-1 Season 5 Episode 22
Explanation: Anubis used the knowledge he gained from ascension to upgrade the weapons and shields on his Ha’taks to be able to resit the weaponry of a much older Asgard ship and ultimately destroy it.
-
Canonical upgrade 4:
-
Technology: Shielding and Weapons
Episode: N/A (SG:U and Joseph Mallozzi, a writer for the show)
Explanation: The Lucian Alliance upgraded the weapons and shields to render them resistant to the Tau’ri’s new Asgard weapons and shields. The extent of the resistance is unkown.
-
Humans weapons, shields and hyperdrive only ever got better because of outside help. Namely the Asgard or Rodney McKay after undergoing a few million years of evolution in a matter of days.
-
Arguably the only invention’s of their own was the railgun’s and their enhanced nukes.
-
The CME figures have nothing to do with the Ha’tak power increases.
-
The CME gives us various 304 shield strengths, Wraith energy per shot, Ori power per shot, but nothing on Ori shielding or Asgard Plasma beam strength.
–
Sauro, I’ll be honest those links have next to no use in terms of gauging the strength of those weapons and therefore the durability of the… whatever the hell you even call those things. Yes they look powerful but if there aren’t enough to take 97 Petatons worth of shielding then their complete and utter lack of any apparent defensive shielding of significant armour could prove to be a problem. And from I have seen there are no calculable events to be seen…
-
On a side note how can you stand that superimposed character singing throughout every battle?
“*sigh* It is apparently more difficult to pit two carriers against each other than I thought.”
While it wouldn’t be 100% faithful to canon, you could always sub out the 302 compliment for Jumpers. While the Daedalus doesn’t usually carry Jumpers, they are used in conjunction in SGA fairly often.
That way it goes from ‘rockets and autogun’ to ‘drones, shields, and cloaking device’.
“which all relate directly to the CME incident.”
-
Which is so far and above anything else seen in Stargate that that is a case of plot/bad writing/sci-fi writers have no sense of scale. Do we get to see any correlating evidence, or are we going to base the shields of an entire series on this one instance? Especially when a ha’tak, a major threat, has been stated to have a 200 megaton yield. This would be around a ONE BILLION times increase in scale.
So.. if I’m reading Reaper and Cananatra correctly.. the calculations aren’t based on the CME event, they’re just all, outside of the Hatak, based on the CME event.. Ok then.
-
“Sauro, I’ll be honest those links have next to no use in terms of gauging the strength of those weapons and therefore the durability of the… whatever the hell you even call those things. Yes they look powerful but if there aren’t enough to take 97 Petatons worth of shielding then their complete and utter lack of any apparent defensive shielding of significant armour could prove to be a problem. And from I have seen there are no calculable events to be seen…
-
On a side note how can you stand that superimposed character singing throughout every battle?”
-
Outside of rap I’m usually able to sit through most kinds of music. Pop is at least catchy, even if it doesn’t grab me as it does the intended audience. I’m a metal head, after all. The scenes are only useful once someone more familiar with the New Macross line of ships shows up, since, again, I don’t want to sit through Macross 7 or any related materials to relearn about that line of ship. It is actually important to note that the given calculations still seem extremely iffy to me, mainly due to conflicting posts between you and canantra at this point. I have absolutely no faith still that the plasma beams are remotely that strong, or that Hataks hit with 200MT’s since I’ve seen bombardments in SG, and a 200MT attack, regardless of how the weapon works, is going to have an effect greater than we’re shown. You can’t just release that much energy and have so little in the way of atmospheric effects. But let’s assume I said sure, the beams are petaton, the defenses of the Quarter still need to be properly judged even if they aren’t up to that standard. The Deadalus is armed with a hell of a lot more than plasma beam guns, and we need to know if the Quarter can tank those weapons.. although I’m predisposed to say it can based on the visual speed of the rain guns. The character singing in the clips is part of the plot, and is the only reason the big alien bugs, the Vajra, don’t just immediately tear through them like wet tissue paper. The humans are massively out gunned, out maneuvered, out armored, and out numbered by the Vajra. They have absolutely zero chance with out the effect her singing has. The most powerful weapon the humans have shy of the Dimension Eaters are the main guns on the New Macross line of ships. A larger type of Vajra which they can deploy like a forward general in to the fray is able to fire three beams at a time equal to that gun, repeatedly.. while the New Macross can only fire once an hour. It’s not even a capital ship class Vajra. So the options are “have her sing” or “die” pretty much. That should explain why she’s always singing.
-
Also, I SWORE I posted this, but I can’t find it just skimming, this is the Battle 7 firing it’s main cannon.
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG5HDoy7RTI
-
Which is what the Quarter can survive at least one hit from, or three if it’s using the pin point barrier system. The attack begins at 2:50, and is at 80% power. The attack targets are the Varuta fleet, which used primarily Zentradi tech if I recall. It’s difficult to tell which ships are present from that but Varuta ships range from 200ish to 800ish meters in size. Assuming they were using even old standard titanium I’m sure someone here could come up with energy calcs for how much it would take to vaporize all of these as a rough beginning point. The fairly small or pin point explosions in comparison to the large ones are likely fighter craft, which are roughly 17 meters in height. The ship crew are human sized if I recall, to give you an idea of how many likely decks there are based on occupant species size to better help make a very rough estimate on rough mass. Have fun, folks.
“So.. if I’m reading Reaper and Cananatra correctly.. the calculations aren’t based on the CME event, they’re just all, outside of the Hatak, based on the CME event.. Ok then.”
-
I can see how you are confused. My calcs aren’t based on the CME event, Reapers are. Reapers are higher than mine in most cases.
-
So two sets of calculations.
“I can see how you are confused. My calcs aren’t based on the CME event, Reapers are. Reapers are higher than mine in most cases.
-
So two sets of calculations.”
-
That last post of mine was where I finally figured out that I was dealing with two separate lines, and that you two weren’t working along the same path.
…Just realized that fold booster technology is supposed to be mainstream by the time of frontier which means theres nothing stopping them from folding a fighter (like a koenig mosnter) inside the Daedalus launch deck… or even folding a nuke inside
“…Just realized that fold booster technology is supposed to be mainstream by the time of frontier which means theres nothing stopping them from folding a fighter (like a koenig mosnter) inside the Daedalus launch deck… or even folding a nuke inside”
-
Only Vajra could do something like that, to my knowledge. The humans can’t yet fold anything that small. The smallest vessel that we’ve seen which can fold is the Quarter. The best “transport a nuke” tactic they could do is to tow MDE’s with a fold, and then to immediately fold out before they detonate. It’s not as good a tactic as launching fighters though.
“Only Vajra could do something like that, to my knowledge. The humans can’t yet fold anything that small. The smallest vessel that we’ve seen which can fold is the Quarter. The best “transport a nuke” tactic they could do is to tow MDE’s with a fold, and then to immediately fold out before they detonate. It’s not as good a tactic as launching fighters though.”
_
Actually the ability to fold fighters has been prevalent since Macross 7 (where the fold boosters I mentioned appear) the booster is a separate device attached to the figther and has apparently been upgraded to Super Fold Boosters by the time of Frontier. A Vf-25 with Super fold booster: www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/vf-25f-super-fold.htm
www.macross2.net/m3/m3.html
========================
Thanks Seradon, I was looking for the same thing. For those interested the above site is one of the best sources for anything Macross. I admit nothing on weapon yields sadly but as a solid fount of information it’s the best second only to MAHQ in terms of tech data.
I’ll go a step further; I finally found a video where the fold booster is shown in operation (along with Max being awesome). You can skip to 2:00 to get to the good part:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUvwWjG-HtM
Do I have to watch more Macross 7? really? really? I either didn’t know of or had forgotten about those, might be an interesting tactic to try, but I don’t recall seeing those in Frontier, while I have no doubt that NUNS has them, I don’t know if any are on the actual Quarter. Can we confirm this?
“Do I have to watch more Macross 7? really? really? I either didn’t know of or had forgotten about those, might be an interesting tactic to try, but I don’t recall seeing those in Frontier, while I have no doubt that NUNS has them, I don’t know if any are on the actual Quarter. Can we confirm this?”
_
There are, although they arent used as much, Fold Boosters are common place in most fleets post 7. Frontier showed the development of a super fold booster which was equipped to the vf-25 and made fold travel near instantaneous. I guess I’ll just repost the link for it: www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/vf-25f-super-fold.htm
In hindsight it makes sense that fold boosters arent used as much in Frontier… The technology is designed to allow fighters to fold without their carriers own fold drive, however this would only be useful offensively and most of Frontier was defensive battles against the Vajra
I thought of a comparison that could explain the CME. It’s like a flamethrower compared to a grenade. A sustained blast from a flamethrower puts out more total energy than one grenade, but the grenade can do more structural damage (to something like a piece of metal) than the flamethrower.
The CME fits in when you realise that a ZPM can destroy a solar system by dumping 50% of it’s energy. It can release 2% of that energy per second at maximum normal output.
“ Only Vajra could do something like that, to my knowledge. The humans can’t yet fold anything that small. The smallest vessel that we’ve seen which can fold is the Quarter. The best “transport a nuke” tactic they could do is to tow MDE’s with a fold, and then to immediately fold out before they detonate. It’s not as good a tactic as launching fighters though. “
-
About a decade or so before the events of Macross Quarter they were using disposable one-use fold rigs on the fighters. In fact the movie “Macross 7: The Galaxy’s Calling Me!” centered around Basera making a bad fold in his VF-19 and ending up crash landing on a planet way off of his planned course and of course running into trouble that the fleet was unaware of while the rest of his group looked for him. The thing that really bugged me about the rigs was that the fighters would go out on a long range scouting mission with them and then fly back sublight which does not make any sense at all. The writers seemed to have an even worse sense of scale in that series than usual. Another example was when City 7 was hijacked and Fighting 7’s fold drive damaged but the sensors were able to get a rough bearing on the fold destination. Fighting 7 started off after it on sublight and the talk was about weeks of travel or a few months at most to get to where City 7 was taken. Before then the fold drives were fixed but still it either means the sublight drive can get up to near lightspeed quickly or the writers did not know what they were talking about. In the clip at about 00:47 Basera folds in in atmosphere and does a several mile long lipskid: www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Rz6W7aGfU&feature=related
The fold booster is visible on the back of the fighter before it hits the snow the first time and it pops off.
All right then… should Macross 7 speeds be accepted at all? They always use space folds for long distance travel in Frontier, and the original SDF-1 Macross was no where that fast, so to my knowledge (and I’m probably wrong, but oh well) this show is the only time we’ve seen Macross vessels able to go so damned fast. I’ll grant that it is the official sequel to the original Macross anime, but it’s also sub par in terms of the other Macross animes put out. I know usually it’s par for the course to just take what we’re given as fact but it’s not always possible if what we’re given is conflicting. Do we have any instances where the ships display a decidedly much slower level of sub light speeds, where travel times are quite obviously no where near as low? Are we certain they weren’t including the possibility of the fold drive getting fixed early or something?
You know how vague they can be in those things, the weeks thing could very well have been a worst case estimate of the repair time, and hareing off in chase in sublight may have just been Jenius being exceptionally anal but who knows. It was a tight star cluster of some kind I think since it would be the only thing that would make any sense at all, stars spaced out like they are around Sol would take years to reach at even the highest sublight speeds. All in all the series was not exactly their shining moment as far as stardrive stuff goes. It was their first time presenting the fold boosters so they were probably pushing things a bit plot wise to come up with a use for them and fumbled it a bit.
-
If everyone agrees it is an outlier case then it is, though I have noticed that declaring something an outlier and having it stick is kind of rare on this board.
-
Something I noticed reviewing macross and watching some of the SG combats is that the Quarter probably could dodge most of the plasma beam shots at it, since they seem to be even slower than the macross cannon beam and ships at range have been shown dodging the dimensional beams. Just eyeballing it the plasma takes close to a second to travel the diameter of the Ori ship rings while the SDF-1 main gun fires out to 300,000 kilometers or so in about three to five seconds (I do not remember the exact time and I have too many papers to write today to look hunt it up and time it again). Even visually the macross beams seem to move faster accross the screen than the plasma beams do. Does anyone have a range figure for the plasma beams? The macross beams may have a longer range just going by the visuals, since the SG ships seem to mostly fire them at very close range (the farthest I have seen so far is in the tens of kilometers range).
To summarize a bit then..
-
Delta-V’s
-
The Macross Quarter may or may not have a much higher Delta-V than the Daedalus, but due to the lower age group Macross 7 seems to be aimed at, it’s difficult to tell.
-
Acceleration
-
The Daedalus is not given a canon acceleration, what can we assess from watching the clips? Does it exceed the Quarter?
-
Combat Maneuverability
-
The Quarter beats out the Daedalus on agility and beam velocity, giving it the edge in who is most likely to dodge and hit in this case. The Quarter might lose out in this if the Daedalus has far superior acceleration, though. What do we know of how fast the Deadalus can alter direction? Best turn around speed, anybody?
-
Durability
-
We have calcs, although I am still unsure I trust them, and would like someone else to cross check them, of the Daedalus. We have given feats for the Quarter but they have not quantified them.
-
Attack Power
-
The Daedalus may or may not be able to tank all of the Quarter’s attacks besides the MDE’s. The Quarter may or may not be able to tank the Deadalus’ plasma beams, and seems incapable of being harmed by the rail guns.
-
Support Craft
-
The Quarter is the clear victor with support craft, carrying something like 80 smaller vehicles including the mighty Koenig Monster, while the Daedalus carries only 8 interceptors.
-
I’m going to out right say we can decide the victor here. The Quarter beats out the Daedalus in getting around the Hoth System it seems, namely with the fold booster it can equip on its fighters. In an open engagement it is agile enough to make landing attacks difficult as well. Because of this the Deadalus will have a difficult time keeping it from deploying it’s VF-25 Messiahs. Once combat becomes particularly fierce, or desperate for the Quarter, even in a situation where nothing has had any effect on the Deadalus, they will begin deploying reaction warheads, and MDE missiles. I surmise that the Quarter will almost definitely live long enough to reach this point if this revelation from Macross 7 stands and it turns out nothing it has will work on the Daedalus. Assuming a Macross Attack is not pulled and somehow magnificently fails, a MDE attack is inevitable.
-
Result: I nominate the Macross Quarter for the award, if in fact Macross ships are so ridiculously more quick than SG ships. There is no way the Daedalus can survive a battle with out getting lucky or just out right surrendering.
gay-ay-ay
Not a hope Sauro, the Macross is a smear across space as soon as this fight begins. Nothing it has is anywhere close to Sg levels of firepower and you know it, nor is its delta V. Sg ships use their sublight engines to decelerate when they exit a hyperspace window, that is around lightspeed to stopped in a few km.
Wait a minute, am I understanding this correctly?
The Daedalus has durability and firepower sufficient to one-shot (and be effectively invulnerable against) the Macross, which have been supported by in-canon statements and logical extrapolation, along with all its other tricks (modifying the Hyperdrive to phase out, a la the Prometheus in ‘Grace’, for example. Can be done by one person in a short time).
The Macross, conversely, has a bunch of strike craft that have even less of a chance of hurting the Daedalus than the Macross does, inferior everything except maybe maneouverability (which won’t matter when they’re being shot point-blank by giant plasma beams of death), and a flippant dismissal of the Daedalus’ calculations due to an Argument from Disbelief?
How is the Macross eligible for a FP award?
“Not a hope Sauro, the Macross is a smear across space as soon as this fight begins. Nothing it has is anywhere close to Sg levels of firepower and you know it”
-
Actually we don’t know it for anything other than the MDE’s, which we know is an instant-kill against anything caught in their effect area.
-
“nor is its delta V. Sg ships use their sublight engines to decelerate when they exit a hyperspace window, that is around lightspeed to stopped in a few km.”
-
I’m guessing you didn’t read BC’s post, where Macross Ships are able to obtain a higher delta-v to a point that the Daedalus may not ever be able to run away. Of course I’ve said myself that I dislike Macross 7, it’s aimed at a younger audience than typical Macross animes, and suffers in the science department because of this. It’s subpar to all other Macross and clearly there has to be something else going on to explain their ridiculously fast ability to travel with out folding out. You can’t out right ignore that though, and I apologize for not remembering things like that because I only breezed through about 2/3rds of Macross 7 years ago and tried to not really hold on to those bitter-tasting memories. The stupidly fast speeds and the instantaneous travel fold-boosters make it seem like getting away from the Quarter is virtually impossible.
-
I’d also like to know how we know they’re going light speed when they exit a hyper space window and that they use their engines to slow down.
-
‘The Daedalus has durability and firepower sufficient to one-shot (and be effectively invulnerable against) the Macross, which have been supported by in-canon statements and logical extrapolation, along with all its other tricks (modifying the Hyperdrive to phase out, a la the Prometheus in ‘Grace’, for example. Can be done by one person in a short time).”
-
Actually, a lot of tricks haven’t been brought up yet, but if you want to make an argument with them, by all means, go for it. I have no qualms with extending this debate. However, the default stance is not “Daedalus can’t be scratched, and it instantly squashes Macross Quarter.” And if it is, it shows an extremely huge amount of bias on your part, Zazax, so you need to check your opinions at the door and take an objective view. The default stance we should take, and are still at, is “We don’t know if either ship’s guns can hurt the other.”
-
Now then, I have provided a means of figuring out an extremely base low end of figuring out how strong one New Macross Class’ main cannon is, which is a good way of figuring out how durable the Macross Quarter is. It would clearly be no where near the actual durability of the Quarter, but it would give us a starting idea of if the Daedalus can even touch it.
-
“The Macross, conversely, has a bunch of strike craft that have even less of a chance of hurting the Daedalus than the Macross does, inferior everything except maybe maneouverability (which won’t matter when they’re being shot point-blank by giant plasma beams of death), and a flippant dismissal of the Daedalus’ calculations due to an Argument from Disbelief?”
-
Actually, it’s the fighter craft that make the Quarter so dangerous. It’s main gun is nice and all but it almost always plays the role of carrier, providing only some support fire here and there. The fighters can bring down the Daedalus, this much we already know for certain, and you’re literally the only person to out right state now that the Daedalus will not be taken out by a MDE missile. I have not dismissed anyone’s calculations, I just would rather the entirety of their calculation process be shown here, and what I got in return were two people saying two different things, which doesn’t sound conclusive at all.
-
“How is the Macross eligible for a FP award?”
-
While I would prefer the discussion go on longer, because frankly, I just like ships and robots and stuff, I know debates tend to die with in a week-ish. What I want to happen probably will not occur, and the fight will die off. Beyond that, unless we can find a way to completely dismiss what we now know thanks to BC, the Macross has the complete speed advantage AND the complete combat maneuverability advantage against a target which will need to absolutely beam spam to even have a chance nick the Quarter. The best defense the Daedalus had was it could fall back if somehow the Quarter were able to actually hurt it, and it could use it’s superior speed to try and ambush the Quarter. This can’t happen if it can instantly teleport its fighters right on top of the Daedalus anyways. My conclusion is unless the Daedalus gets a really lucky blow, and by that I mean somehow destroys all five component ships that make up the Quarter with a single shot, then if it is true that the Quarter can’t get through their shields then it’s not going to be very long at all before a MDE gets thrown at the Daedalus.
The speed thing coming out of hyperspace was seen when SG1 sabotaged a Ha’taks engines in hyperspace (well just as it exited). This prevented it from decelerating when it exited the hyperspace window and it crashed into a planet. Teal’c was the one who provided the info that Sg1 used to do the plan.
-
Also don’t forget for speed, if the Daedalus is getting worried it can always just hyperjump and circle the Macross in Hyperspace before diving back out and strafing the Macross with beams. We’ve seen the Daedalus’s hyperdrives run for months on end at max output so Hyperspace strafing wouldnt be a problem.
“Also don’t forget for speed, if the Daedalus is getting worried it can always just hyperjump and circle the Macross in Hyperspace before diving back out and strafing the Macross with beams. We’ve seen the Daedalus’s hyperdrives run for months on end at max output so Hyperspace strafing wouldnt be a problem.”
-
Due to the nature of super dimensional space, communications and sensors use super dimensional technology to communicate and detect targets at FTL speeds. They are able to both tell what the Daedalus is doing and be able to hop around at FTL speeds as well. And again, trying to joust is probably the worst possible idea in the history of space combat in the long, sad history of bad ideas in space combat. It’s literally asking to get shot in the face. This is why nobody does it, because the moment you show them doing it on the screen everyone is going to scream “Why can’t they just hit each other?!” as the ships go zipping past, guns ablazing, at high speeds like two knights on horseback in an arena with their lances at the ready. A fight like this happens in The War For Space by Toho, and the two ships pretty much beat the shit out of each other because it’s so impossible to not get hit when doing this. I can not stress enough how bad of an idea that is.
Macross has no sensors that can see into Hyperspace because Hyperspace does not exist in the Macross universe. FTL sensors just mean that they do not experience lightspeed lag, not that they can magically see into all types of FTL technology. Sg’s is literally in another dimension while they fly about.
“Actually, a lot of tricks haven’t been brought up yet, but if you want to make an argument with them, by all means, go for it.”
Okay, well, I’ll start with the instance I named. In the episode ‘Grace’ of SG-1, the Prometheus is trapped in a dangerous nebula that is slowly damaging the ship, with the entire crew save Carter tteleported off by hostile aliens. Carter is able to single-handedly (and quickly enough to save the ship) tinker with the Hyperdrive to phase the entire ship out, saving it from the damage over time. This also has the side effect of negating the EMC-like properties of the nebula that were interfering with her ability to control the ship, and she safely pilots both the Prometheus and (once she contacts it and extends this phase field around it), the aforementioned hostile alien ship that followed them in and got trapped as well. They return the crew and leave peacefully in thanks. The Daedalus uses the same technology, but better integrated, so it should be able to duplicate the feat.
Not quite a Daedalus feat, but close; in the episode ‘Fallen’, O’Neill, while piloting a 302 (of which the Daedalus would be carrying a complement) makes a pinpoint, danger-close Hyperspace jump into Anubis’ mothership, and emerges inside its shields (as was the intention). He proceeds to shoot the crap out of it from within its shields. No idea if the Macross has shields, but if they do, 302s with competent pilots can jump right through them.
We see similar pinpoint Hyperspace jumps throughout the show, including jumping a global-killer asteroid through Earth and jumping two ships at once (with one Hyperdrive) through the planet the evil Asgard had a base on in Atlantis.
-
To give a few feats showing that the Daedalus can keep up with the Macross no matter how fast its going, in an episode of Atlantis, the Daedalus itself picks up an Ancient Aurora-class battleship (the ‘Tria’) hurtling through space at .9999c on its sensors (so as long as the Macross remains STL in realspace, the Daedalus can track it). They must have been going damn fast themselves, because they actually see it hurtle past them as well.
Also, as for acceleration/deceleration, as has been said, SG ships use their sublights to decelerate after a Hyperspace jump. In the case of the Daedalus in later seasons, this is going from thousands of times c to <c in a second or so. Make of that what you will.
-
"However, the default stance is not “Daedalus can’t be scratched, and it instantly squashes Macross Quarter.” And if it is, it shows an extremely huge amount of bias on your part, Zazax, so you need to check your opinions at the door and take an objective view."
So you of course have proof of petaton+ level shielding and teraton+ level weapons for the Macross? Because if not, it can't survive a single volly, and can't hurt the Daedalus.
-
"The default stance we should take, and are still at, is “We don’t know if either ship’s guns can hurt the other.”"
… Why wouldn't they? Maneouverability only gets you so far. The Daedalus has 4 Plasma Beams that it can fire on angles (the degree of which is unknown, though), and a supply of Mark IXs to fire like missiles or beam around like space mines as they so choose.
For reference, each of these is a single Mark IX going off:
images.wikia.com/stargate/images/7/73/Horizon-explodes.jpg
Hell, pending the presence of shields, the Daedalus could just beam a Mark IX or two right on board the Macross and be done with it seconds into the match. They might be able to bung it up with ECM, but it takes unusually powerful stuff to stop Asgard Beams (Thor was able to beam into the lowest level of the Cheyenne Mountain complex, past all the rock and the most advanced ECM the military had, including stuff stolen from aliens, with no effort at all, multiple times. In fact, the only ECM shown to be proof against is is what the Wraith use).
-
"Now then, I have provided a means of figuring out an extremely base low end of figuring out how strong one New Macross Class’ main cannon is, which is a good way of figuring out how durable the Macross Quarter is. It would clearly be no where near the actual durability of the Quarter, but it would give us a starting idea of if the Daedalus can even touch it."
Well then, get on that. Give us a number, man.
-
"The fighters can bring down the Daedalus, this much we already know for certain, and you’re literally the only person to out right state now that the Daedalus will not be taken out by a MDE missile."
Do these fighters have shields? Because if not, Asgard beams can literally dematerialize them in seconds. We see Thor disintegrate a pair of Ha'taks (and the army they landed to deploy) with Asgard Beams in the first appearance the Asgard ever make in about 10 seconds.
Also, how do these MDE missiles work, exactly? Because we've seen 304s like the Daedalus survive flying through the accretion disks of black holes perfectly fine (and that's a hell of a lot of space warping/tearing/whatever there). There's also the fact that the Daedalus can phase out (making it quite immune to this sort of thing), simply jump to Hyperspace, shoot down the missiles (or the fighters carrying them), or just beam everything up, fighters and missiles included.
-
"and what I got in return were two people saying two different things, which doesn’t sound conclusive at all."
You got two different sets because they're describing different things. Cananatra's are an extremely low-end (as in, it's quite impossible for them to be any lower and remain internally consistent) based off of low-end figures stated in-canon in the finale of the first season. The other set I'm less familiar with, but if memory serves they're extrapolated from a Coronal Mass Ejection seen in Atlantis, and are more middle-end (as opposed to Cananatra's low-end).
-
"the Macross has the complete speed advantage AND the complete combat maneuverability advantage against a target which will need to absolutely beam spam to even have a chance nick the Quarter."
So, the Macross has engines powerful enough to decelerate from thousands of times c to less than 1c in a second or so then? Or can cover a few light minutes in, say, ~15 minutes to a half an hour on sublights? That's news to me.
It's definitely more maneouverable though. However, between beam spam (which is a totally valid and dable tactic, by the way) and beaming giant nukes of death all over the area (or even right onto the Macross), it's not going to help as much as you'd think.
-
"This can’t happen if it can instantly teleport its fighters right on top of the Daedalus anyways."
Which itself can't happen if said fighters are then immediately dematerialized by Beaming tech.
-
"My conclusion is unless the Daedalus gets a really lucky blow, and by that I mean somehow destroys all five component ships that make up the Quarter with a single shot, then if it is true that the Quarter can’t get through their shields then it’s not going to be very long at all before a MDE gets thrown at the Daedalus."
Which is blatantly ignoring pretty much everything about the Daedalus.
-
I mean, seriously. I can't find any reference to the Macross actually having a 'standard' shield. If it doesn't have one, the first thing 304 crews always try (they did it against the Wraith, most famously) is beaming a giant, naquadah-enhanced nuke on board (in this case, a Mark IX). No shields = match over in seconds.
“The speed thing coming out of hyperspace was seen when SG1 sabotaged a Ha’taks engines in hyperspace (well just as it exited). This prevented it from decelerating when it exited the hyperspace window and it crashed into a planet. Teal’c was the one who provided the info that Sg1 used to do the plan.”
-
I’m dubious over this. A hatak going at light speed should be carrying something like infinite energy. The planet would have been destroyed. Which episode number was this?
-
“Okay, well, I’ll start with the instance I named. In the episode ‘Grace’ of SG-1, the Prometheus is trapped in a dangerous nebula that is slowly damaging the ship, with the entire crew save Carter tteleported off by hostile aliens. Carter is able to single-handedly (and quickly enough to save the ship) tinker with the Hyperdrive to phase the entire ship out, saving it from the damage over time. This also has the side effect of negating the EMC-like properties of the nebula that were interfering with her ability to control the ship, and she safely pilots both the Prometheus and (once she contacts it and extends this phase field around it), the aforementioned hostile alien ship that followed them in and got trapped as well. They return the crew and leave peacefully in thanks. The Daedalus uses the same technology, but better integrated, so it should be able to duplicate the feat.”
-
Let’s try this again. Tricks used in actual combat, please.
-
“No idea if the Macross has shields, but if they do, 302s with competent pilots can jump right through them.”
-
Unless they’re carrying Naquadah nukes, I don’t see this being useful for anything other than getting through the fighter screen and hoping the flak cloud the Quarter is putting out doesn’t take out the fighters.
-
“To give a few feats showing that the Daedalus can keep up with the Macross no matter how fast its going, in an episode of Atlantis, the Daedalus itself picks up an Ancient Aurora-class battleship (the ‘Tria’) hurtling through space at .9999c on its sensors (so as long as the Macross remains STL in realspace, the Daedalus can track it). They must have been going damn fast themselves, because they actually see it hurtle past them as well.”
-
It never occurred to me to check whether the Daedalus can keep track of the Quarter, but I guess we now know that it can.
-
“So you of course have proof of petaton+ level shielding and teraton+ level weapons for the Macross? Because if not, it can’t survive a single volly, and can’t hurt the Daedalus.”
-
I’m beginning to suspect you of being either stupid or just extremely biased. Again, if we don’t know the calcs for the Quarter, the stance is we don’t know, the stance is not “Daedalus automatically wins.” This is as ridiculous as saying “Quarter automatically wins because while we don’t know it’s calcs it’s clearly stupidly powerful. Until the Quarter is proven to be weaker than the Daedalus this is clearly the stance to take.” We can not lean one way or the other on the debate. It’s a moot point to cover until someone who knows more can do the calculations.
-
“… Why wouldn’t they? Maneouverability only gets you so far. The Daedalus has 4 Plasma Beams that it can fire on angles (the degree of which is unknown, though), and a supply of Mark IXs to fire like missiles or beam around like space mines as they so choose.
For reference, each of these is a single Mark IX going off:
images.wikia.com/stargate/images/7/73/Horizon-explodes.jpg
Hell, pending the presence of shields, the Daedalus could just beam a Mark IX or two right on board the Macross and be done with it seconds into the match. They might be able to bung it up with ECM, but it takes unusually powerful stuff to stop Asgard Beams (Thor was able to beam into the lowest level of the Cheyenne Mountain complex, past all the rock and the most advanced ECM the military had, including stuff stolen from aliens, with no effort at all, multiple times. In fact, the only ECM shown to be proof against is is what the Wraith use).”
-
Your response has nothing to do with the quote you took of me. I have no idea what you thought you were responding to. Beyond this, maneuverability is everything, as I’m guessing you didn’t watch the videos where the Quarter flies like it’s a space fighter, and surfs a piece of debris through atmosphere. Beyond this, I don’t think the first thing they’d do is try to beam aboard a nuke. This strategy no longer works for them. Under what sane command would the first idea be “Well there’s an unidentified ship, it seems to be hostile, let’s try that tactic which hasn’t worked in forever.” At what point does this seem like a good idea? Or one a capable commander would even think of? After a particularly drawn out battle, they might think eventually to check for something like that, but it’s virtually never used. Beyond this, I don’t remember the last time they began just teleporting nukes all over the battle area, how often do they employ this tactic? As they’re beginning at short range to each other is this even a good idea? All the videos I saw of Daedalus in combat make it pretty willing it seems to fire missiles in a standard fashion.
-
“Well then, get on that. Give us a number, man.”
-
I don’t know enough to begin properly. We have people on the site who I am pretty sure do.
-
“Do these fighters have shields? Because if not, Asgard beams can literally dematerialize them in seconds. We see Thor disintegrate a pair of Ha’taks (and the army they landed to deploy) with Asgard Beams in the first appearance the Asgard ever make in about 10 seconds.
Also, how do these MDE missiles work, exactly? Because we’ve seen 304s like the Daedalus survive flying through the accretion disks of black holes perfectly fine (and that’s a hell of a lot of space warping/tearing/whatever there). There’s also the fact that the Daedalus can phase out (making it quite immune to this sort of thing), simply jump to Hyperspace, shoot down the missiles (or the fighters carrying them), or just beam everything up, fighters and missiles included.”
-
The fighters use advanced armor, energy converting armor, and pin point barrier shields. I don’t think they can survive hits from ship grade weapons though.
-
I’ve already explained the process that MDE’s work on.
-
Shoot down the fighters and missiles? You mean NOW you’re willing to talk about this when I asked for feats of this before to get an idea of how well it can defend itself seeing as its fighters are too few to be of much use defensively? We already know how agile the fighters are, and we know the MDE’s have a range of 50km, So can we get an idea of how effective the anti-missile and anti-fighter systems are on the Daedalus?
-
Also, name the last time the Daedalus beamed aboard something like 80 fighter craft. How often exactly does it just beam aboard that kind of stuff? How good of an idea is that even? What if one of them it beams aboard has an MDE bomb? Then what? It’s so boned it’s not even funny. Beaming aboard enemy fighter craft is the worst idea in the history of space combat since the idea of flying straight at the enemy at high speeds and hoping you don’t get cracked in the face about a bajillion times.
-
“You got two different sets because they’re describing different things. Cananatra’s are an extremely low-end (as in, it’s quite impossible for them to be any lower and remain internally consistent) based off of low-end figures stated in-canon in the finale of the first season. The other set I’m less familiar with, but if memory serves they’re extrapolated from a Coronal Mass Ejection seen in Atlantis, and are more middle-end (as opposed to Cananatra’s low-end).”
-
Do we even have high ends? I’m more likely to trust Cananatra because he’s going off stated stats for a Hatak and trying to figure out things from there. Although I still strongly suspect the given stats are likely wrong as I seem to recall Hatak bombardment not vaporizing whole counties, which I’m pretty sure a 200GT energy release would do, even if it hit at ground level instead of at a proper height. The CME event using a ZPM enhanced shield seems extremely iffy. I still don’t get how you’re supposed to get standard shield strength out of that event if they’re using a ZPM, and we don’t really know anything at all about the CME outside of it being stronger than one from our sun.
-
” In fact, the only ECM shown to be proof against is is what the Wraith use).”
-
I want to go over this statement again, as I didn’t address it earlier. What do we know about Wraith ECM?
-
“So, the Macross has engines powerful enough to decelerate from thousands of times c to less than 1c in a second or so then? Or can cover a few light minutes in, say, ~15 minutes to a half an hour on sublights? That’s news to me.
It’s definitely more maneouverable though. However, between beam spam (which is a totally valid and dable tactic, by the way) and beaming giant nukes of death all over the area (or even right onto the Macross), it’s not going to help as much as you’d think.”
-
Did you not read BC’s post? There’s a point where Battle 7 was going to traverse star systems on sublight drives in a matter of weeks at best. Weeks. WEEKS. That’s fucking ridiculous to the extreme. The best we can ever get to obviously is .99999-whatever C which means the stars have to be really close, but it does give Macross ships the tech to be able to get to light speed stupidly fast. Although this is only really useful for events where for whatever reason Daedalus wants to try and run away using the sublight engines..because.. I don’t know, the commander suddenly was a monkey eating a banana and no one knew what to do. That’s about the only situation where I can think such a thing might happen.
-
What we need to know for the Daedalus’ plasma beams is how fast it can fire them, what’s the best angle to get as many beams out as possible, how fast the beams travel from the ship, and most importantly.. accuracy.
-
“Which itself can’t happen if said fighters are then immediately dematerialized by Beaming tech.”
-
Yes, capture all the fighters with beaming tech, that sounds like a great strategy which we’ve surely seen used countless times before.
-
“I mean, seriously. I can’t find any reference to the Macross actually having a ‘standard’ shield. If it doesn’t have one, the first thing 304 crews always try (they did it against the Wraith, most famously) is beaming a giant, naquadah-enhanced nuke on board (in this case, a Mark IX). No shields = match over in seconds.”
-
You will have to describe standard shield. The Quarter employs heavy armor, energy absorbing armor on the flight deck as that becomes a holsterable shield in battroid mode, a pin point barrier system on the core ship, a pin point barrier system on the carrier ship and ECM. It should be noted that pin point barrier systems appear to negate shielding when impacted with other shields, as even the tiny Quarter was able to punch through the enormous Macross Galaxy’s shields to perform a Daedalus Attack, which may be a viable strategy on the Daedalus itself, ironically.
-
To summarize your post.. “Quarter loses because Daedalus does things it hasn’t done in years or has never tried but could conceivably do.” Yes?
“I’m dubious over this. A hatak going at light speed should be carrying something like infinite energy. The planet would have been destroyed. Which episode number was this?”
-
It won’t have infinite energy. You need infinite energy to break the speed of light as you achieve infinite mass, which is probably what you’re thinking of. Also, we don’t know how much it had slowed down before the engines where blown as they were blown just after it left hyperspace.
-
“Let’s try this again. Tricks used in actual combat, please.”
-
You can’t just dismiss out of hand feats.
-
“Unless they’re carrying Naquadah nukes, I don’t see this being useful for anything other than getting through the fighter screen and hoping the flak cloud the Quarter is putting out doesn’t take out the fighters.”
-
They can carry nukes though.
-
“I’m beginning to suspect you of being either stupid or just extremely biased. Again, if we don’t know the calcs for the Quarter, the stance is we don’t know, the stance is not “Daedalus automatically wins.” This is as ridiculous as saying “Quarter automatically wins because while we don’t know it’s calcs it’s clearly stupidly powerful. Until the Quarter is proven to be weaker than the Daedalus this is clearly the stance to take.” We can not lean one way or the other on the debate. It’s a moot point to cover until someone who knows more can do the calculations.”
-
You seem to do this a lot. If you do not provide calculations for your side, and the other side does provide calculations, you can not claim any strength for your side. Everything shown so far suggests the quarter is weaker, from its generators to its guns apparent effects (from the clips I’ve seen). You have to provide evidence it can match the known power of the daedalus, the daedalus supporters do not have to figure it out for you.
-
“Beyond this, I don’t think the first thing they’d do is try to beam aboard a nuke. This strategy no longer works for them. Under what sane command would the first idea be “Well there’s an unidentified ship, it seems to be hostile, let’s try that tactic which hasn’t worked in forever.” At what point does this seem like a good idea? Or one a capable commander would even think of? After a particularly drawn out battle, they might think eventually to check for something like that, but it’s virtually never used. Beyond this, I don’t remember the last time they began just teleporting nukes all over the battle area, how often do they employ this tactic? As they’re beginning at short range to each other is this even a good idea? All the videos I saw of Daedalus in combat make it pretty willing it seems to fire missiles in a standard fashion.”
-
WTF? Its an established tactic, you do not get to say the crew will brain fart and not use it. As for the combats you’ve seen, you may note they actually prefer to use plasma beams and only drop to tauri weapon systems if the beams are knocked out, or if for some reason the beam would be a poor choice. Totally aside from that, if they are in a position to beam a nuke onto the quarter they can just beam up the quarter.
-
“Shoot down the fighters and missiles? You mean NOW you’re willing to talk about this when I asked for feats of this before to get an idea of how well it can defend itself seeing as its fighters are too few to be of much use defensively? We already know how agile the fighters are, and we know the MDE’s have a range of 50km, So can we get an idea of how effective the anti-missile and anti-fighter systems are on the Daedalus?”
-
Asgard beams would remove any fighters or solid ordinance used against a 304. Aside from that it can put out a decent amount of Flak with its rail guns.
-
“Also, name the last time the Daedalus beamed aboard something like 80 fighter craft. How often exactly does it just beam aboard that kind of stuff? How good of an idea is that even? What if one of them it beams aboard has an MDE bomb? Then what? It’s so boned it’s not even funny. Beaming aboard enemy fighter craft is the worst idea in the history of space combat since the idea of flying straight at the enemy at high speeds and hoping you don’t get cracked in the face about a bajillion times.”
-
Using asgard beams offensively you do not reconstitute the enemy, you just delete them from the buffer, so they aren’t beaming anything aboard. You show your ignorance at every turn.
-
“Do we even have high ends? I’m more likely to trust Cananatra because he’s going off stated stats for a Hatak and trying to figure out things from there. Although I still strongly suspect the given stats are likely wrong as I seem to recall Hatak bombardment not vaporizing whole counties, which I’m pretty sure a 200GT energy release would do, even if it hit at ground level instead of at a proper height. The CME event using a ZPM enhanced shield seems extremely iffy. I still don’t get how you’re supposed to get standard shield strength out of that event if they’re using a ZPM, and we don’t really know anything at all about the CME outside of it being stronger than one from our sun.”
-
First Hataks are 200MT, not 200GT. Secondly, Sg energy weapons don’t act like that, so you won’t get big explosions from them anyway.
-
“I want to go over this statement again, as I didn’t address it earlier. What do we know about Wraith ECM?”
-
All we know is it emits some sort of jamming that blocks asgard teleporters.
-
“What we need to know for the Daedalus’ plasma beams is how fast it can fire them, what’s the best angle to get as many beams out as possible, how fast the beams travel from the ship, and most importantly.. accuracy.”
-
2 seconds seem to be the recharge rate. Angles are upwards of 90 degrees from their emitters. Beam speed, I don’t know. Accuracy is fairly high. Plasma beams are designed to punch at critical systems rather than bombard you everywhere to death (though obviously they could do the latter).
-
“Yes, capture all the fighters with beaming tech, that sounds like a great strategy which we’ve surely seen used countless times before.”
-
Eh, yes it has actually, by the asgard, on many occasions. They beamed up two Ha’taks at one point.
-
“pin point barrier”
-
The pin point barrier is not an enveloping field, its an emitted field that is moved between the ship and incoming fire. As it doesn’t cover the whole ship at once, the Macross is vulnerable to teleporter attacks.
“a flippant dismissal of the Daedalus’ calculations due to an Argument from Disbelief?”
-
How is it an Argument from Disbelief? Petaton shielding is so far above anything else in Stargate that it makes no sense to fit in. If you can provide evidence beyond this one single instance, I will admit that you are right.
-
On top of this, does the Daedalus even have a ZPM? You said earlier in the thread that Daedalus didn’t have one, but the CME event required a ZPM. So…. does it have one or not?
“You can’t just dismiss out of hand feats.”
-
I can if they’re useless.
-
“You seem to do this a lot. If you do not provide calculations for your side, and the other side does provide calculations, you can not claim any strength for your side. Everything shown so far suggests the quarter is weaker, from its generators to its guns apparent effects (from the clips I’ve seen). You have to provide evidence it can match the known power of the daedalus, the daedalus supporters do not have to figure it out for you.”
-
I was expecting one of the big Macross buffs to show up, which never happened.
-
The guns apparent effects carved a path through an entire fleet for the Quarter to dive through… That actually strikes me as more impressive than the apparent effects of the plasma beam. However, I have never once stated the Quantum cannon is stronger the plasma beams because to go based on that would be ridiculous. The Quantum cannon is known to be weaker than a New Macross class ship’s main cannon, after all. In every way the Quarter is visually more impressive than the Daedalus, your only purchase is you have calcs for a Hatak. You never gave me the episode number, or I missed it, for when we got the numbers for them, and I would like to cross check those numbers with scenes of the Hataks in combat. It’s not like I don’t have access to the show, and unlike a lot of people here on the pile, I’m willing on occasion to go through the opposition’s media to see what they’ve seen. Of course it helps that I was once a SG-1 fan.
-
“WTF? Its an established tactic, you do not get to say the crew will brain fart and not use it. As for the combats you’ve seen, you may note they actually prefer to use plasma beams and only drop to tauri weapon systems if the beams are knocked out, or if for some reason the beam would be a poor choice. Totally aside from that, if they are in a position to beam a nuke onto the quarter they can just beam up the quarter.”
-
A crew won’t use a tactic that hasn’t proved useful in ages, that’s a fact. It’s tantamount to suicide.
-
“Asgard beams would remove any fighters or solid ordinance used against a 304. Aside from that it can put out a decent amount of Flak with its rail guns.”
-
I have a difficult time seeing the beams hitting the ships, unless you mean their teleportation beaming, which I’d need more evidence for since I’ve never seen the ship do that in memory or in the recent clips I’ve viewed. We even have a scene where they expressly use smaller craft to go fight smaller craft.
-
“Using asgard beams offensively you do not reconstitute the enemy, you just delete them from the buffer, so they aren’t beaming anything aboard. You show your ignorance at every turn.”
-
This was not stated until later, you may note that when I respond to the idea of just obliterating them with beaming tech that I don’t say keeping them on board is a bad idea, I just ask to see craft actually get captured by the beaming tech.
-
“All we know is it emits some sort of jamming that blocks asgard teleporters.”
-
Then there’s no way to know if Macross ECM will work or not. Let me guess, the default stance is “it won’t.” right?
-
“First Hataks are 200MT, not 200GT. Secondly, Sg energy weapons don’t act like that, so you won’t get big explosions from them anyway.”
-
No no, you don’t get to release that kind of energy and not see any results. That’s not how things work. There should be magma or something at least.
-
“2 seconds seem to be the recharge rate. Angles are upwards of 90 degrees from their emitters. Beam speed, I don’t know. Accuracy is fairly high. Plasma beams are designed to punch at critical systems rather than bombard you everywhere to death (though obviously they could do the latter).”
-
That may not really be enough beam spam..
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrWzQN-n8nI
-
This video reveals a lot to us.
-
A. Daedalus, if under duress, probably can fire more than once every 2 seconds. We see this roughly at around 5:42.
-
B. The Daedalus never beams fighters, I ask for an instance of it doing this, and doing it well enough to stop the kind of numbers of fighters the Quarter puts out, including the ability to track and grab one jumping about in the way they tend to. Another faction doing it doesn’t count. Do not play that game, you know 100% exactly what I meant Canantra.
-
C. The plasma beams appear to have a slower velocity than the actual MDE missiles.
-
“The pin point barrier is not an enveloping field, its an emitted field that is moved between the ship and incoming fire. As it doesn’t cover the whole ship at once, the Macross is vulnerable to teleporter attacks.”
-
The field is erected to stop fire at the exact time of impact. Unless the beam they’re trying to teleport over is undetectable I find it difficult to believe that one could get put on the Quarter.
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7A5IHP69Vk&feature=related#t=8m27s
-
Here we can see at roughly 2:00 that combat speed is fairly low, as is maneuverability, it’s getting hit, a lot. We can’t say it’s effortlessly tanking their attacks because it gets damaged and opts to just ram through one of those suckers a few moments later.
-
And if I recall, we’ve seen the Daedalus miss targets which are swiftly attempting to actively evade the beams, pulling hard turns around the ship to get away and cause the beams to miss.
-
So I come to my conclusion.. the plasma beam is useful.. why? And we know they can beam nukes about.. why? And we know they WOULD try to beam nukes on board despite this no longer being a tactic they regularly employ as we’ve seen in their now numerous battles from these clips.. why? And for that matter.. we think they’d open with a plasma beam spam.. why? Many times we see them begin with the rail guns and missiles before switching to the plasma weapons, or only using them after a ship class is already known to be immune to their standard weapons. You are making ENORMOUS leaps and assumptions about what the Daedalus crew would do in this situation, assuming they would automatically use the best possible strategy for this one unique situation, and that they would execute it flawlessly, and that it would actually work and the enemy would fail to enact anything resembling counter measures to protect themselves. You are now the Stargate equivalent of a Master Chief fanboy. Congratulations.
so am i correct to assume the biggest problem in this match is the fact both sides lack enough understanding of the ships to accurately gauge what would be effective?
Yes. I actually did a brief estimation. But it’s no where near accurate enough that I care to embarrass myself with revealing it, and this stems from the fact that I have a hard time finding out how much energy it would take to get iron heated up to a liquid state. Of course, iron is vastly inferior to whatever the hell they’re using in Macross, but, it’s a starting point. I guess. These iffy calculations really set me off.
If you can show me the scene I could calc an iron asteroid destruction.
“A. Daedalus, if under duress, probably can fire more than once every 2 seconds. We see this roughly at around 5:42.”
-
Note that daedalus has 4 emitters. I said each emitter takes about 2 seconds between shots.
-
“B. The Daedalus never beams fighters, I ask for an instance of it doing this, and doing it well enough to stop the kind of numbers of fighters the Quarter puts out, including the ability to track and grab one jumping about in the way they tend to. Another faction doing it doesn’t count. Do not play that game, you know 100% exactly what I meant Canantra.”
-
Another faction does count when it is expressly the same technology. Asgard using asgard sesnors and beams used them offensively as I suggest. Daedalus has asgard sensors and asgard beams, meaning they are capable of performing their function. It is fallacious for you to suggest that simply because it is on a different ship that the technology would cease working.
-
“C. The plasma beams appear to have a slower velocity than the actual MDE missiles.”
-
So? I was referring to teleporter beams for intercepting missiles. Plasma beams would be useless for that.
-
“The field is erected to stop fire at the exact time of impact. Unless the beam they’re trying to teleport over is undetectable I find it difficult to believe that one could get put on the Quarter.”
-
So you now suggest that the quarter can detect a technology it has never before encountered. That it can predict it, and then modify its shields in a way never before seen, to stop it. You know as well as I do that is not a sound argument. Macross has no idea whats happening, the first they’d know of it was when a nuke appears inside them.
-
“Here we can see at roughly 2:00 that combat speed is fairly low, as is maneuverability, it’s getting hit, a lot. We can’t say it’s effortlessly tanking their attacks because it gets damaged and opts to just ram through one of those suckers a few moments later.”
-
Its going at several kilometres per second and circle strafing the hive ship. How exactly is that slow or non-manoeuvrable?
-
“And if I recall, we’ve seen the Daedalus miss targets which are swiftly attempting to actively evade the beams, pulling hard turns around the ship to get away and cause the beams to miss.”
-
Yes it has, in specific michaels cruiser. Which incidentally they were trying to cripple its engines, not destroy.
-
And now for sauro’s idiotic piece of post:
-
“the plasma beam is useful.. why?”
-
Because it can one shot the quarter.
-
“And we know they can beam nukes about.. why?”
-
Because we’ve seen them do it.
-
“And we know they WOULD try to beam nukes on board despite this no longer being a tactic they regularly employ as we’ve seen in their now numerous battles from these clips.. why?”
-
They no longer employ it because their enemy has jamming for it. You suggesting they have forgotten the ability is just stupid.
-
“And for that matter.. we think they’d open with a plasma beam spam.. why?”
-
Do we?
-
“Many times we see them begin with the rail guns and missiles before switching to the plasma weapons, or only using them after a ship class is already known to be immune to their standard weapons.”
-
As far as I remember they only time they start with tauri weapons is when they don’t have asgard ones. You’ll note that for most of SGA, 304’s don’t have plasma beams.
-
“You are making ENORMOUS leaps and assumptions about what the Daedalus crew would do in this situation, assuming they would automatically use the best possible strategy for this one unique situation, and that they would execute it flawlessly, and that it would actually work and the enemy would fail to enact anything resembling counter measures to protect themselves.”
-
The enemy has no effective counter measures. The chance of this fight even going beyond the first volley is stupidly small.
-
“You are now the Stargate equivalent of a Master Chief fanboy. Congratulations.”
-
*sigh* No sauro, you just love to ignore your opponent while imagining your super mechs winning. This is a reoccurring theme with you.
“The enemy has no effective counter measures. The chance of this fight even going beyond the first volley is stupidly small.”
_
To be fair the idea of the 304′s plasma beams being able to one-shot the quarter sounds pretty exaggerated considering the pinpoint barrier as previously shown can handle so much energy. There also isnt enough evidence to suggest that even if the asgard teleport could be used to stop solid weapons they could handle the volleys produced by the Vf-25s. More importantly, even if they could handle the load of managing so many teleports the system will probably require some time to target the units to “erase” them and as previously stated the vf-25 can literally fold right on top of the Daedalus. Honestly theres too much info missing from both sides (especially the Quarter’s due to lack of cacls) to decide this fight so easily. Sauroposeidon is correct in stating this wont be so simple for the Daedalus. The Quarter has, as stated previously fighter-level maneuverability, and weapons capable of ignoring the Daedalus formidable shielding, meaning this isn’t as simple as shooting the quarter once and seeing it be blown to pieces… I really hope this match can get more active however; both of these ships are awesome in their own right and deserve the attention.
“If you can show me the scene I could calc an iron asteroid destruction.”
-
The scene for determining durability comes from the firing of Battle 7′s main cannon at 80% power, the scene has been posted a few times.
-
“Note that daedalus has 4 emitters. I said each emitter takes about 2 seconds between shots.”
-
The forward most emitter gets used A LOT more than the others, is what I caught on to.
-
“Another faction does count when it is expressly the same technology. Asgard using asgard sesnors and beams used them offensively as I suggest. Daedalus has asgard sensors and asgard beams, meaning they are capable of performing their function. It is fallacious for you to suggest that simply because it is on a different ship that the technology would cease working.”
-
No, it does not count. If it’s not something the participating faction does, even if it is with in their ability, then we have no reason to believe they’ll even attempt it. I never once said the technology can’t work that way. I never once said that asgard beaming tech on asgard ships is different from asgard beaming tech on human ships. The only possible argument I can make from what we have is humans have asgard beaming tech, asgard ships with beaming tech will “delete” enemy ships, humans with asgard beaming tech never do this, thusly either it’s not part of their usual strategies or they lack the ability to do this due to some other reason, such as their computers locking on or some other such nonsense. Whether they can and won’t or would but can’t doesn’t matter because the end result is 100% exactly the same. It doesn’t happen.
-
“So? I was referring to teleporter beams for intercepting missiles. Plasma beams would be useless for that.”
-
I’m not referring to the missiles being beamed away, because I’ve never seen missiles be beamed away, and they sure as hell wouldn’t know the entire area from 50 or more kilometers about to be converted in to super dimensional space. So why would they beam those missiles out of the hundreds being fired in this fight even if this was something they did? It’s such a non-factor I didn’t even entertain the idea when making that statement. This had more to do with the fact that even one of their slower attacks will hit faster than the attacks the Daedalus puts out, to give a comparison between the two.
-
“So you now suggest that the quarter can detect a technology it has never before encountered. That it can predict it, and then modify its shields in a way never before seen, to stop it. You know as well as I do that is not a sound argument. Macross has no idea whats happening, the first they’d know of it was when a nuke appears inside them.”
-
Actually, I’m claiming the data has to be sent at them to beam it aboard, this would constitute energy of some kind I imagine, which the Quarter’s barrier system may react to. Because a beam of energy is invisible to the human eye does not change the fact that it is still a beam of energy of sorts, unless you’d like to explain in greater detail how the beaming technology works.
-
“Its going at several kilometres per second and circle strafing the hive ship. How exactly is that slow or non-manoeuvrable?”
-
It’s all relative. It’s combat speeds seem to be maybe “Some” kilometers per second, not several, that’d imply something like 7+, it looks to me more like 4-6 at best.
-
“Yes it has, in specific michaels cruiser. Which incidentally they were trying to cripple its engines, not destroy.”
-
They still missed.
-
“Because it can one shot the quarter.”
-
Can you provide 100% irrefutable proof that this is true, with out relying on the “We know the Daedalus’ numbers, ergo it automatically wins until we know more.” argument? Can you prove the Macross Quarter can’t take a hit from the Daedalus? Because you’re making a very positive statement right there. You realize your opposition is only saying “Maybe, but we don’t actually know” right now, yes? Beyond that, it literally can not one shot the Quarter. Even if the Quarter can not tank the beams at all, and it somehow gets hit, at best the Daedalus takes out one of the component ships only. So we already know you’re talking out yer bum right there. Why can’t you just admit it?
-
“They no longer employ it because their enemy has jamming for it. You suggesting they have forgotten the ability is just stupid.”
-
I didn’t suggest that they’ve forgotten it, I suggested it would not be anywhere on the list of things to try first due to their current mind sets. It would be on their last resort list of tactics, perhaps. To think they’d open with this is worse than assuming they’d forgotten it.
-
“Do we?”
-
And I quote.. “the Macross is a smear across space as soon as this fight begins. ” So unless you really think that a single plasma beam is going to be all it takes to wipe out the Quarter, and that it won’t be able to evade or take cover or anything like that at all, you acknowledge that it would have to spray its beams at the Quarter.
-
“*sigh* No sauro, you just love to ignore your opponent while imagining your super mechs winning. This is a reoccurring theme with you.”
-
Really? Where am I imagining things here? Point to where I’m wrong, and why. Go for it. I imagine that the Macross Quarter might actually be faster than the Daedalus. I imagine it’s much more agile. I imagine it can tank everything except maybe the plasma beam, I imagine it’s defenses may or may not stop teleporting crap on to it, I imagine its fighters will over whelm the Daedalus and I imagine that if the Daedalus really is as strong as you think and the Quarter is as fast and agile as we now know it is then it’s not going to take more than a minute or so before they unload with their MDE’s, which no one has proven the Daedalus can tank. I have never imagined that the Quarter’s weapons and shields will make it able to effortlessly rip the Daedalus to shreds, nor have I been in any match where one mech goes against one non mech and I’ve treated the mech in such a favor as you seem to think I have. You’re imagining ridiculous amounts of bias here, because I shifted from a stance of “Maybe Quarter wins?” to “It will probably win” when new evidence was provided in favor of the Quarter. All the while you cling to the Daedalus because.. you really like stargate, I guess? It doesn’t even cross your mind that maybe, juuuust maybe, the Daedalus could possibly lose, even though you know about the super missiles the Macross side has, and their mobility. Instead you concoct strategies and scenarios which have never or would never happened that are completely alien to the scenes we’re all familiar with from the battle scenes we’ve seen with the Daedalus and fellow 304′s.
“Let’s try this again. Tricks used in actual combat, please.”
Why would it have to be in combat? There’s no specific rule dictating ‘feats must come from combat’. Just because the Macross has nothing to counter phasing doesn’t mean you can just dismiss it because you don’t like it.
-
“Unless they’re carrying Naquadah nukes, I don’t see this being useful for anything other than getting through the fighter screen and hoping the flak cloud the Quarter is putting out doesn’t take out the fighters.”
They can carry nukes, actually. And how would a flak cloud and fighter screen at all impair a ship basically teleporting up to it?
-
“I’m beginning to suspect you of being either stupid or just extremely biased.”
Yeah, I’m not going to rise to that.
-
“Again, if we don’t know the calcs for the Quarter, the stance is we don’t know, the stance is not “Daedalus automatically wins.” This is as ridiculous as saying “Quarter automatically wins because while we don’t know it’s calcs it’s clearly stupidly powerful. Until the Quarter is proven to be weaker than the Daedalus this is clearly the stance to take.” We can not lean one way or the other on the debate. It’s a moot point to cover until someone who knows more can do the calculations.”
This would be the case if it wasn’t for something called Burden of Proof. You’re the side making the claim that the Macross can stand up to the Daedalus, and so you’re responsible for the evidence, and if you can’t supply it, we don’t have to believe it. ‘Assume it’s false until it’s proven true’ is a fundamental axiom of debate (see also: innocent until proven guilty).
So, to recap; We can’t (by debating law!) treat the Macross as equal to the Daedalus until you provide, you know, actual evidence for it.
-
“Your response has nothing to do with the quote you took of me.”
I did kind of go off an a tangent, didn’t I? Whatever, it’s stil relevant.
-
“Beyond this, maneuverability is everything, as I’m guessing you didn’t watch the videos where the Quarter flies like it’s a space fighter, and surfs a piece of debris through atmosphere. ”
So, this maneouverability is sufficient to dodge multi-gigaton nuclear explosions at point-blank range, then? Because if not, it doesn’t mean anything.
-
“Beyond this, I don’t think the first thing they’d do is try to beam aboard a nuke. This strategy no longer works for them. Under what sane command would the first idea be “Well there’s an unidentified ship, it seems to be hostile, let’s try that tactic which hasn’t worked in forever.” At what point does this seem like a good idea? Or one a capable commander would even think of? After a particularly drawn out battle, they might think eventually to check for something like that, but it’s virtually never used.”
It’s their goddamn first-attempt tactic! When they first meet Wraith ships, the very first thing they do is blow up two or three of them by beaming nukes aboard. They only stop because the Wraith develop countermeasures. The Macross has no such countermeasures, and won’t have time to develop them because it’s just one ship, which will soon be lots of small pieces of one ship.
They haven’t used it in a while because their opponents have safeguards against it (shields or Wraith ECM). Notably, the Daedalus is able to detect the presence of both. If it doesn’t see any such thing on the Macross, why wouldn’t it beam a nuke aboard and end the match like that?
-
“All the videos I saw of Daedalus in combat make it pretty willing it seems to fire missiles in a standard fashion.”
So, you’re arguing PIS then?
-
“The fighters use advanced armor, energy converting armor, and pin point barrier shields. I don’t think they can survive hits from ship grade weapons though.”
I think a dintinction needs to be made; there’s Asgard Plasma Beams (the giant blue beams of death the Daedalus fires; the ones with petaton firepower). There’s also Asgard Beaming (dematerializing something and then rematerializing it somewhere else). If this Beaming is being used offensively (such as when Thor uses it against an entire Goa’uld army and the Ha’taks they landed in), iit’s the same thing, only skipping the ‘rematerialization’ part.
So they wouldn’t be shot at with starship-grade weapons. They’d just be dematerialized.
-
“We already know how agile the fighters are, and we know the MDE’s have a range of 50km, So can we get an idea of how effective the anti-missile and anti-fighter systems are on the Daedalus?”
Erm, Beaming tech has pinpoint accuracy from geosynchronous orbit (35,786 km, way further than 5), is capable of hitting multiple targets at once and switching between then very fast.
As for standard fighter defence, again, it can just beam a nuke amongst the oncoming fighters. Normally it uses its railguns for PD, but it doesn’t even need them.
-
“Also, name the last time the Daedalus beamed aboard something like 80 fighter craft. How often exactly does it just beam aboard that kind of stuff? How good of an idea is that even? What if one of them it beams aboard has an MDE bomb? Then what? It’s so boned it’s not even funny. Beaming aboard enemy fighter craft is the worst idea in the history of space combat since the idea of flying straight at the enemy at high speeds and hoping you don’t get cracked in the face about a bajillion times.”
*facepalm*
They don’t beam them aboard. They just dematerialize them.
Okay, brief tutorial on how Beaming works. Each ship has a number of emitters, split between internal and external. If you want to beam something up, you dematerialize them with the external emitters, transfer the ‘data’ to the internal ones, and then rematerialize them. Vice versa for beaming off the ship. In the case of using beaming offensively (like Thor does), you simply don’t rematerialize them with the internal emitters.
-
“Do we even have high ends? I’m more likely to trust Cananatra because he’s going off stated stats for a Hatak and trying to figure out things from there.”
As am I. I didn’t even know about Reaper’s calcs until this match. No offense, Reaper.
-
“Although I still strongly suspect the given stats are likely wrong as I seem to recall Hatak bombardment not vaporizing whole counties, which I’m pretty sure a 200GT energy release would do, even if it hit at ground level instead of at a proper height. ”
Stargate weapons do not work this way. They maintain coherency even as they’re slamming through layers of solid matter. They don’t explode unless they’re meant to explode (naquadah-enhanced nukes, overloaded ZPMs, etc).
-
“Did you not read BC’s post? There’s a point where Battle 7 was going to traverse star systems on sublight drives in a matter of weeks at best. Weeks. WEEKS. That’s fucking ridiculous to the extreme. The best we can ever get to obviously is .99999-whatever C which means the stars have to be really close, but it does give Macross ships the tech to be able to get to light speed stupidly fast.”
This is where things get tricky. If they mean traversing multiple star systems as in leaving their equivalent of the Oort cloud, then I’m afraid their STL is actually FTL, as it takes light ~150 days to get past the Oort Cloud from the sun. If they mean just going the distance to, say, Pluto and the Kuiper Belt, that’s about 6 hours and nowhere near a week. Until that’s better defined, it can be anything from FTL to somewhere around 0.07c.
So… get posting more evidence.
-
“Yes, capture all the fighters with beaming tech, that sounds like a great strategy which we’ve surely seen used countless times before.”
We’ve seen Beaming tech dematerialize capital ships, so… yeah.
-
“You will have to describe standard shield. The Quarter employs heavy armor, energy absorbing armor on the flight deck as that becomes a holsterable shield in battroid mode, a pin point barrier system on the core ship, a pin point barrier system on the carrier ship and ECM.”
An encompassing energy field (you know, a standard sci-fi shield). If it doesn’t have one, it won’t be stopping any Beaming tech, and the Daedalus is free to completely murderstomp it with it.
As for ECM, even the Wraith ECM took losing 2 or 3 Hiveships before they got it ‘tuned’ right or whatever (and no other type of ECM has shown to be effective). Macross won’t have that luxury.
-
“To summarize your post.. “Quarter loses because Daedalus does things it hasn’t done in years or has never tried but could conceivably do.” Yes?”
Probably closer to ‘Daedalus wins because it has better weapons, shields, and some neat tricks, and the crew aren’t drooling, booger-eating simpletons’.
-
“How is it an Argument from Disbelief? Petaton shielding is so far above anything else in Stargate that it makes no sense to fit in. If you can provide evidence beyond this one single instance, I will admit that you are right.”
It’s not, though. In the later series we see several entire solar systems be destroyed by bombs (such as an overloaded ZPM causing an explosion twice the size of a Sol-like solar system), a planet crushed into a black hole, a ship tank a Coronal Mass Ejection, time dilation on the scale of 1 second = about a century, intergalactic teleportation, life-wiping superweapons with a range measured in galaxies, a ship that can fly through a goddamn star, flight through the accretion disks of black holes, time travel, interdimensional travel, a machine that eats universes and shits infinite power, etc. Some of those are way, way more impressive than the calcs for the Daedalus.
Hell, the Asgard themselves blow up their planet Death-Star style immediately after giving the Tau’ri their stuff in Unending. Considering they have the firepower to do that, I see no reason their ship-to-ship weapons can’t be as strong as seen in the calcs.
-
“On top of this, does the Daedalus even have a ZPM? You said earlier in the thread that Daedalus didn’t have one, but the CME event required a ZPM. So…. does it have one or not?”
It doesn’t. The CME thing was just included in the calcs for the sake of providing the entire post. People always get so hung up on the CME…
Just did some more research, and I think I was wrong on the time it takes light to get to the Oort Cloud. Everything else I find seems to say the it’s about 2 light years across, so we’ll go with that, making the Macross’ ‘cross multiple systems in a few weeks’ thing even more unlikely to refer to it.
-
Wait a moment! I just thought of a speed feat for Stargate.
In the episode ‘Tangent’, the SGC launches the X-301 (with O’Neill and Teal’c as pilots), a weird combination of Goa’uld and human tech. It goes horribly wrong, as they somehow missed a device in the Death Glider they scavenged for parts that takes over the ship, and starts flying it back to Apophis.
About halfway through the episode, we get this gem:
“Digger One, this is flight. We have no joy on the burn. I’m sorry, Colonel, but the missiles just didn’t have enough thrust. Your current trajectory takes you out of the solar system and towards the Oort cloud, which you should reach in a…in a few months. We’re all still thinking down here so…don’t give up. 1813 Zulu.”
And that was using Goa’uld tech. The Daedalus is using Asgard stuff, which is even better. Although that’s fighter speed, it shows you the ballpark Stargate speeds play in.
“Why would it have to be in combat? There’s no specific rule dictating ‘feats must come from combat’. Just because the Macross has nothing to counter phasing doesn’t mean you can just dismiss it because you don’t like it.”
-
The phasing just seems pointless. You didn’t provide an instance of it being used in actual combat. They got out of a bad situation with it and then never used it again judging from what you said. If you had provided instances of them using it in combat I would have more of an open ear, otherwise it’s no better than a neato barrel roll.
-
“They can carry nukes, actually. And how would a flak cloud and fighter screen at all impair a ship basically teleporting up to it?”
-
Because you’d be IN the flak field is the problem. Although if the Daedalus doesn’t really use it’s fighters much the Quarter may not deploy it’s Cheyennes.
-
“Yeah, I’m not going to rise to that.”
-
If it helps any, I was leaning towards biased.
-
“You’re the side making the claim that the Macross can stand up to the Daedalus, and so you’re responsible for the evidence, and if you can’t supply it, we don’t have to believe it. ‘Assume it’s false until it’s proven true’ is a fundamental axiom of debate (see also: innocent until proven guilty).
So, to recap; We can’t (by debating law!) treat the Macross as equal to the Daedalus until you provide, you know, actual evidence for it.”
-
Actually, we aren’t taking the stance that the Quarter can stand up to the Daedalus nastiest weapons, we’re, or at least I’m taking the stance of we don’t know. There is a difference. I have made attempts to begin to figure out, but no one has actually extended a hand to help me outside of Cananatra just now.
-
“They don’t beam them aboard. They just dematerialize them.”
-
You don’t really keep up with the other posts very much, do you?
-
“Stargate weapons do not work this way. They maintain coherency even as they’re slamming through layers of solid matter. They don’t explode unless they’re meant to explode (naquadah-enhanced nukes, overloaded ZPMs, etc).”
-
That energy has to go somewhere when it’s fired at the ground.
-
“~150 days to get past the Oort Cloud from the sun. If they mean just going the distance to, say, Pluto and the Kuiper Belt, that’s about 6 hours and nowhere near a week. Until that’s better defined, it can be anything from FTL to somewhere around 0.07c.
So… get posting more evidence.”
-
You should reread BC’s post, as he’s clearer about it than I was apparently. For the record, I’m very likely to just take his word for it instead of looking myself. Why? I really don’t like Macross 7, and don’t want to watch it again, while he and others seem more than willing to re-experience it despite however they may feel about it. I’m far more willing to go “Eh, fuck it, I guess I’ll never know” than I am willing to sit through it again.
-
“We’ve seen Beaming tech dematerialize capital ships, so… yeah.”
-
We’ve seen Asgardians do this, not humans. I have already gone over this.
-
“An encompassing energy field (you know, a standard sci-fi shield). If it doesn’t have one, it won’t be stopping any Beaming tech, and the Daedalus is free to completely murderstomp it with it.
As for ECM, even the Wraith ECM took losing 2 or 3 Hiveships before they got it ‘tuned’ right or whatever (and no other type of ECM has shown to be effective). Macross won’t have that luxury.”
-
You can of course prove this, right? Do we have ships which use pin point shield systems in Stargate? Do we know for a fact that the shield has to be 100% encompassing? Realistically, the shield only needs to be in the way of the transmitted energy. We know they use energy absorbing armor in Macross too, so I want to know exactly what they do when they beam something, because if it is projected energized material being reconstituted at a specific destination, for all we know the energy absorbing armor might just eat it up.
-
I also believe we need to know more about the ECM the Wraith use before we can rule out the ECM they use in Macross.
-
“Probably closer to ‘Daedalus wins because it has better weapons, shields, and some neat tricks, and the crew aren’t drooling, booger-eating simpletons’.”
-
Except you have no way to prove this..except for the part where their crew isn’t retarded.
“And that was using Goa’uld tech. The Daedalus is using Asgard stuff, which is even better. Although that’s fighter speed, it shows you the ballpark Stargate speeds play in.”
-
We’re already familiar with the ballpark they play in.
-
“Just did some more research, and I think I was wrong on the time it takes light to get to the Oort Cloud. Everything else I find seems to say the it’s about 2 light years across, so we’ll go with that, making the Macross’ ‘cross multiple systems in a few weeks’ thing even more unlikely to refer to it.”
-
I lean towards BC’s idea that it was a tight star cluster. That or the writers weren’t fact checking, clearly. Still, if it’s in the anime then it’s in the anime, I’m just willing to say “extend travel time as much as need be to become non-physics breaking.” The speed itself isn’t what’s so insane, it’s the fact that it took them forever and a day to get back to Earth on their sublight engines in the original Macross anime and they were with in our own solar system at the time. The technology jump is just so obscene.
“The phasing just seems pointless. You didn’t provide an instance of it being used in actual combat. They got out of a bad situation with it and then never used it again judging from what you said. If you had provided instances of them using it in combat I would have more of an open ear, otherwise it’s no better than a neato barrel roll.”
They can render themselves intangible. How is that not something potentially useful?
The reason they probably never did it in-combat is because they need to modify the Hyperdrive, presumably preventing them from jumping while it’s this way (thus keeping them from fleeing if they have to). However, in this fight, any use of the Daedalus’ hilariously fast FTL will only launch it out of the area where it can fight without being disqualified, so it’s kind of moot.
-
“Because you’d be IN the flak field is the problem. Although if the Daedalus doesn’t really use it’s fighters much the Quarter may not deploy it’s Cheyennes.”
Unless they, you know, come out on the other side of the ship, where the guns aren’t shooting hails of death due to there being nothing in their firing arc.
-
“If it helps any, I was leaning towards biased.”
Pot. Kettle. Black.
-
“Actually, we aren’t taking the stance that the Quarter can stand up to the Daedalus nastiest weapons, we’re, or at least I’m taking the stance of we don’t know. There is a difference.”
Oh? So what’s the difference between saying ‘the Macross can take it, so it’s not an instant win’ and ‘we don’t know if the Macross can take it, so it’s not an instant win’? I look forward to the finality of whatever Cananatra calcs out, but you seem to have all sorts of issues with Burden of Proof.
-
“You don’t really keep up with the other posts very much, do you?”
If you’re going to be snide, obnoxious, and smug, I won’t give you the courtesy of responding to each of your rebuttals regardless of the posts of others. One would think you’d be happy I’m not ignoring large sections of your post just because someone else answered them first.
-
“That energy has to go somewhere when it’s fired at the ground.”
Yeah, it goes into the ground. We *see* that these weapons maintain coherency; a good example is when Baal’s fleet is bombarding Anubis’ flagship from orbit in ‘Homecoming’. Several shots just blast right through it and keep going down into the ground. If they exploded in a spectacular blast as you seem to think they should, this would not happen.
-
“You should reread BC’s post, as he’s clearer about it than I was apparently.”
Not really. This is about the best I can find:
“Another example was when City 7 was hijacked and Fighting 7’s fold drive damaged but the sensors were able to get a rough bearing on the fold destination. Fighting 7 started off after it on sublight and the talk was about weeks of travel or a few months at most to get to where City 7 was taken. Before then the fold drives were fixed but still it either means the sublight drive can get up to near lightspeed quickly or the writers did not know what they were talking about.”
and:
“You know how vague they can be in those things, the weeks thing could very well have been a worst case estimate of the repair time, and hareing off in chase in sublight may have just been Jenius being exceptionally anal but who knows. It was a tight star cluster of some kind I think since it would be the only thing that would make any sense at all, stars spaced out like they are around Sol would take years to reach at even the highest sublight speeds. ”
That’s not particularly useful, especially since even at the closest you could ever get to c without actually hitting it, it would still take you about 2 years to cross the area considered our ‘Solar system’, so the ones here would have to be so unlike Sol that we’d have no way to judge it (like a binary system or something). Anything else is just scientifically nonsensical.
-
“We’ve seen Asgardians do this, not humans. I have already gone over this.”
And the humans know it can do this, since they goddamn see it. If we’ve never seen the modern US military do a creeping artillery barrage, despite knowing about it and having the technology to do it, does that mean they can’t do it?
-
“You can of course prove this, right? Do we have ships which use pin point shield systems in Stargate? Do we know for a fact that the shield has to be 100% encompassing? ”
The Tok’ra and the Vanir (evil Pegasus Galaxy Asgard) both use non-encompassing shielding. Unfortunately, I can’t think of an occurance of either being tested against Beaming tech
However, both the shield and the ECM prevent beaming the same way; it prevents the Daedalus from getting a transporter lock on whatever it’s trying to beam, and the location it’s beaming to. I’m inclined to believe non-encompassing shields won’t cut it here, since the Daedalus is capable of scanning around things (like picking coordinates for a Hyperspace jump through and around a planet).
-
“Realistically, the shield only needs to be in the way of the transmitted energy. ”
The shield doesn’t block the transportation itself, it prevents it from taking place at start with. There are a few times people can beam out of something they shouldn’t be able to (such as Baal beaming out of a cell specifically made to prevent this sort of thing) by carrying a beacon with a boosted signal for the transporter to lock on to.
-
“I also believe we need to know more about the ECM the Wraith use before we can rule out the ECM they use in Macross.”
We are never told very much about it. All we know is it’s a special kind of jamming code they employ that is able to prevent Beams from getting a lock (where no other ECM in the show is successful). It is extremely probable that they developed this in their original war with the Vanir, which is how they’re able to pull it out of their ass so fast once they realize what the Daedalus is doing.
-
“Except you have no way to prove this..except for the part where their crew isn’t retarded.”
We have already provided the numbers for this stuff. It is up to anyone supporting Macross to provide evidence that would allow it to stand up to the Daedalus, which so far has not been done. *We* don’t need to prove anything else (yet), it’s on Team Macross now. If *you* guys can’t prove the Macross can stand up to the Daedalus, then my statement is entirely true. And will remain true until you guys do.
“It doesn’t. The CME thing was just included in the calcs for the sake of providing the entire post. People always get so hung up on the CME…”
-
But if that feat is what gives it petaton shielding…
-
“It’s not, though.”
-
Hmmph. Well, thank you for the examples. I must have forgotten about them. I guess it makes more sense to fit it, then.
-
And with that, I probably bid this match adieu. I came in because I had seen what appeared to be wank. Unfortunately for me, it was not quite the wank I had at first believed it was. Good luck, Pilers. *bows out*
“But if that feat is what gives it petaton shielding…”
I’m unfamiliar with Reaper’s calcs, unfortunately, so you’ll have to ask him. Cananatra’s low-end ones, however, do not use the CME as the basis for anything else; it’s a stand-alone event that was only calc’d because the fight it was originally done on involved the Odyssey, which does actually have a ZPM (ironically, it was actually the Daedalus who pulled the off the feat; it just doesn’t have the ZPM anymore).
-
“Hmmph. Well, thank you for the examples. I must have forgotten about them. I guess it makes more sense to fit it, then.”
They all take place in the later seasons of SG-1 or in Atlantis. The first half or so of SG-1 was exactly as low-mid tech as you’re remembering. Things scaled up quickly when the Asgard and Replicators showed up in force, and didn’t really stop until SGU.
“ The speed thing coming out of hyperspace was seen when SG1 sabotaged a Ha’taks engines in hyperspace (well just as it exited). This prevented it from decelerating when it exited the hyperspace window and it crashed into a planet. Teal’c was the one who provided the info that Sg1 used to do the plan. “
-
That Ha’tak in “Enemys” was not going anywhere near lightspeed when it approached the planet, it looked more like it was going whatever speed it had before it entered hyperspace. The sudden acceleration and deceleration when entering or leaving hyperspace is probably the same effect as the one in Babylon5: just an illusion caused by the transition.
-
“ Macross has no sensors that can see into Hyperspace because Hyperspace does not exist in the Macross universe. FTL sensors just mean that they do not experience lightspeed lag, not that they can magically see into all types of FTL technology. Sg’s is literally in another dimension while they fly about. “
-
On the contrary, the “super dimensional” sensors scan into other dimensions and (through folds) into distant parts of real space so there is no reason to believe that they would not be able to see into hyperspace. In fact a lot of the weird sounding names for things in anime come from translation artifacts, and “super dimensional space” which sounds awkward in English could also be translated as “hyper dimensional space” or simply “hyperspace” since ‘hyper’ and ‘super’ both have the connotation of ‘above’ and so are equivalent terms in that respect. Also when doing an extremely long range fold it is not instant like the shorter ranged ones are, they spend time in a dimension where time and space are not normal and two people on the same ship can experience different lengths of time passing during the trip, up to weeks but they do not need to eat or sleep during it either (if I remember correctly anyway, it has been a while since I saw the original macross series and the details of the trip to the zentradi fleet HQ may be a bit fuzzy).
-
“ -
To give a few feats showing that the Daedalus can keep up with the Macross no matter how fast its going, in an episode of Atlantis, the Daedalus itself picks up an Ancient Aurora-class battleship (the ‘Tria’) hurtling through space at .9999c on its sensors (so as long as the Macross remains STL in realspace, the Daedalus can track it). “
-
Flat out in sublight they are probably about the same, they are both jumpships so the fastest either one could possibly go in realspace is somewhere just short of lightspeed, though most of the time neither one would be likely to waste the energy going that fast in realspace when it is more efficient to just do a fold or hyperspace jump if they are in a hurry to get to somewhere fairly local that could be reached by a high-speed sublight run.
–
“However, the default stance is not “Daedalus can’t be scratched, and it instantly squashes Macross Quarter.” And if it is, it shows an extremely huge amount of bias on your part, Zazax, so you need to check your opinions at the door and take an objective view.”
So you of course have proof of petaton+ level shielding and teraton+ level weapons for the Macross? Because if not, it can’t survive a single volly, and can’t hurt the Daedalus. “
-
Comparing power levels like that has little meaning unless both sides are using simple energy projectors and direct energy vs. energy shields and that is not quite the case. The macross cannon is not a DEW, it is more of a lightsecond long dimensional disruption that chews up everything in its path; the power put into it seems to control to some degree the severity of the disruption but the damage does not seem to be strictly proportional to the input either. The beam path shows a line of millions of small explosions which looks a lot like all the dust and gases along it is being exposed to something like its equivalent antimatter and exploding.
-
The pinpoint shields do not seem to break down, but rather do not always catch everything 100% mostly due to operator error. The shields can take a serious amount of pounding, possibly more than Daedalus can score on a ship that literally skips to the side to dodge incoming beams like a martial artist on solid ground dodging tennis balls. Very little outside of superhero comics can match the insane level of agility anime giant robots show, and the Quarter is quite possibly the most agile of anime capital ships (or at least on the ‘good guy’ side anyway). In the following clip note the acceleration shown by the stars visible in the viewports behind the pilot at about 02:10, it is not a jump to hyperspace either, it is just normal acceleration using the sublight engines (and it is not even the best acceleration it has ever used, just what is in this particular video clip, and both the ship and the fighters stop so fast at times that they almost look like the coyote from the roadrunner cartoon slamming into the tunnel painting). It uses an asteroid for cover at 02:36 in terrain that is very similar to the asteroid field that this debate is set in. Also take a look at the red fighter in the background at 02:57 as it bugs out. And a good look at the Macross cannon firing starting at 03:19. The leading edge striking at about 03:24 is bad enough but the really nasty damage comes with the spacial distortions at 03:25 which is also where some of the popcorn explosion effects become visible around the target ship. The ship continues to twist and distort until it finally explodes at around03:31.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxXCV4DN3fU&feature=related
-
The fighters seem to out accelerate and outmaneuver the f302’s as well, the performance shown near the end of the next clip are pretty much typical ‘hero’ maneuvers that anyone but the lowest cannon fodder level fighters use. Note the acceleration at 01:12 and the maneuvers at 01:16 through 01:19.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga_aTC1MCY0
-
“ … Why wouldn’t they? Maneouverability only gets you so far. The Daedalus has 4 Plasma Beams that it can fire on angles (the degree of which is unknown, though), and a supply of Mark IXs to fire like missiles or beam around like space mines as they so choose. “
-
Considering the Quarter could almost turn around and outrun the plasma beams because of the very slow speed they have instead of dodging to the side maneuver means a lot more than it would with faster moving weapons. The Mark IX’s are also slow, the amount of AA/AM fire the Quarter can put out would knock any but an extremely large dense pack of them out of action (the first clip above shows some of the defensive turrets in operation). Also with the Quarters fighters outnumbering the 302’s by at least five to one they would get enough spare time to knock some of the missiles out of space too.
-
“ Hell, pending the presence of shields, the Daedalus could just beam a Mark IX or two right on board the Macross and be done with it seconds into the match. They might be able to bung it up with ECM, but it takes unusually powerful stuff to stop Asgard Beams (Thor was able to beam into the lowest level of the Cheyenne Mountain complex, past all the rock and the most advanced ECM the military had, including stuff stolen from aliens, with no effort at all, multiple times. In fact, the only ECM shown to be proof against is is what the Wraith use). “
-
Macross ships are well shielded with their barriers and energy converting armor and have enough quantum weirdness around them from their internal workings that they probably would not be an easy target to latch onto with the beams even if their shields were off. Their ECM is no pushover either.
-
-
“ “This can’t happen if it can instantly teleport its fighters right on top of the Daedalus anyways.”
Which itself can’t happen if said fighters are then immediately dematerialized by Beaming tech. “
-
If they did fold that close they would probably do an alpha strike; there are only so many transporter channels available and up to 80 fighters and hundreds of missiles would be a bit much to try to catch without any warning. On top of that the energy converting armor would probably absorb the beam energy or at least enough of it to mess up the transport to nowhere trick.
-
“ Totally aside from that, if they are in a position to beam a nuke onto the quarter they can just beam up the quarter. “
-
If they have ever beamed up a ship twice their size I must have missed it. What episode would that be in?
-
-
“ Asgard beams would remove any fighters or solid ordinance used against a 304. Aside from that it can put out a decent amount of Flak with its rail guns. “
-
Asgard beams would have a serious problem trying to hit the carrier much less its fighters or even worse the fighters missiles.
-
I’ve just rewatched the Macross vids in this thread Sauro and I cant see the asteroid shot you where referring to.
BC, I believe you have made a small misunderstanding just due to some poor naming on Stargate’s part. There’s Asgard Plasma Beams, and then Asgard Beams. The first are giant blue lances of death, and the second are the teleporty dematerialization things. When we say ‘they can Beam that’, we mean they can use the second one, not shoot it with the giant blue plasma beams of death. Think of it like beaming something up in Star Trek, and then just not rematerializing them
-
“Considering the Quarter could almost turn around and outrun the plasma beams because of the very slow speed they have instead of dodging to the side maneuver means a lot more than it would with faster moving weapons.”
We don’t really have an accurate idea of how fast the Plasma Beams travel.
-
“The Mark IX’s are also slow, the amount of AA/AM fire the Quarter can put out would knock any but an extremely large dense pack of them out of action (the first clip above shows some of the defensive turrets in operation).”
I was unaware that ‘teleport them right beside the Macross and detonate immediately’ was coounted as slow. It’s not like they never do this, either. Hell, in the first season of SGA they beam a Mark IX overtop of Atlantis with the shields up, set it off immediately, then cloak the city so it looks like they self-destructed.
-
“Also with the Quarters fighters outnumbering the 302’s by at least five to one they would get enough spare time to knock some of the missiles out of space too.”
I don’t even know if the Daedalus would bother launching 302s. If it has a compliment of Jumpers (which they use pretty much exclusively instead of 302s in Atlantis) it would be a fight, but just 302s is no contest.
But I highly doubt the Macross’ strike craft can intercept something being teleported right beside the Macross (if not inside it) within seconds of the match starting, and detonating immediately.
-
“On top of that the energy converting armor would probably absorb the beam energy or at least enough of it to mess up the transport to nowhere trick.”
How so? It’s not an energy beam, there’s no apparent energy to absorb.
-
“If they have ever beamed up a ship twice their size I must have missed it. What episode would that be in?”
We see Thor’s Beliskner dematerialize a group (I think it was a pair, but it might have been more) in a couple of seconds in the episode ‘Thors’ Chariot’. The Daedalus is using the same tech (a more advanced version, in fact; it can create matter out of energy
-
“Macross ships are well shielded with their barriers and energy converting armor ”
Neither of which would stop it.
-
“and have enough quantum weirdness around them from their internal workings that they probably would not be an easy target to latch onto with the beams even if their shields were off.”
How do you figure? We see Asgard Beaming work perfectly fine when really close to a black hole, for example, so why would the Macross’ space distortion stuff make any difference?
-
“Their ECM is no pushover either.”
The only ECM in the entire SGverse that has proven effective against Beaming is the stuff the Wraith specifically made to counter it. It notably doesn’t prevent the Daedalus from scanning the ship and picking up things like weapons powering up or the layout of the interior, so it’s something different and weird (it’s never actually called ECM in the show either; they refer to it as ‘jamming codes’).
-
“Asgard beams would have a serious problem trying to hit the carrier much less its fighters or even worse the fighters missiles.”
Beaming as in ‘to beam it up’, not ‘to shoot it with a beam’. This type of beaming would have no trouble hitting whatsoever, since it’s not a projectile. And it can be very, very accurate (such as beaming an attached Goa’uld right out of Colonel Caldwell’s head without taking any of his brain with it).
Ugh, sorry, that should read ‘we see Thor’s Beliskner beam up a pair of Ha’taks’. That’s what I get for editing my sentence before finishing it.