Suggested by EnigmaJ
Before any humans discover the planet, a Space Jockey ship crashes onto Pandora, releasing its cargo of face huggers and Xenomorph Warriors.
Do the Aliens manage to completely take control of the planet or is the environment too hostile?
“it gives off a lot of humid heat and humid, hot, moist, and dark environments is the xenos favorite place of dwelling”
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Not quite. Hudson said “yeah, but it’s a dry heat”, which would mean the opposite to humid and moist; still hot and dark though.
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I don’t recall Xenomorphs enjoying humid areas in particular.
It’s kinda like how wasps build their hive. It’s a secretion they emit to stick harvested hosts to the walls, and to create hives. It won’t be an issue in this fight.
“Not quite. Hudson said “yeah, but it’s a dry heat”, which would mean the opposite to humid and moist; still hot and dark though.”
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I thought this because the walls were always moist and dripping there is typically a mist in Xenomorph areas. Hudson also could have been saying that to be an asshole which he was in the movie.
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“I don’t recall Xenomorphs enjoying humid areas in particular.”
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They do in fact enjoy humid, wet areas the most hence why their dwelling are always wet and moist. This is seen prominently in the books as well where they always nest in a wet area like a swamp.
The mist actually serves a purpose. It’s kinda of like a proximity alarm for the eggs.
I started playing “Alien vs Predator” the first one on my PS2, in that game when you play asthe Xenos, they don’t kill their enemy, they KO them and then you have the option of bringing them to the hive for the face huggers to impregnate them, this could help the face huggers impregnate some of the animals in pandora that seem a little hard to do so.
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I know AvsP is not canon but thats because of the cross over, so their is something called “Hive Nods” their like this cone things that the drones spit out and then starts to grow (they could be made manualy so I guess it’s game mechanics), this “Hive Nods” heal the Xenos so it’s perfect to build them in your hive location, they stick into the ground and contaminate it.
Could this be usefull?
If it’s canon of course.
Any way this could be canon?
avp.wikia.com/wiki/Hive_Node
Outcome of fight will be a bunch these running around.
i.imgur.com/QQoWx.jpg
That is frickin’ awesome
“I started playing “Alien vs Predator” the first one on my PS2, in that game when you play asthe Xenos, they don’t kill their enemy, they KO them and then you have the option of bringing them to the hive for the face huggers to impregnate them, this could help the face huggers impregnate some of the animals in pandora that seem a little hard to do so.
”
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I’ve said this many times. But I’m glad someone else thought the same way.
@tau43
That is now the official outcome of a Na’vi Xeno. So utterly badass.
“It’s kinda like how wasps build their hive. It’s a secretion they emit to stick harvested hosts to the walls, and to create hives. It won’t be an issue in this fight”
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It will certainly be an issue for Pandoran life when they try an engage Xenomoprhs on their home turf. Not only will it be under ground/well hidden (Making it hard to get at, especially for larger animals), but it is the perfect place for the Xenomorphs to not only ambush, but to obtain new troops. Not to mention that it would effectively be a “blind spot” to Eywa. Actually, a sufficiently defended and sizable hive should be nearly impenetrable to large animals (Too big to easily get in and/or too hard to manuever inside), and suicidal to anything besides a large animal that can defend itself.
That is of course assuming that they find the hive. But now that you said it, I agree.
Of course an underground hive isn’t the best position to be in if Eywa turned around and had a few hundred billion fist sized insects swarm down.
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Hell imagine now if aliens got a hive in a major city and the pied piper set all the rats on them. It’d be death by a thousand cuts.
That… actually made sense. If Hellfire Wasps attack, they’re too small to really hurt, or impregnate, and they come in swarms the size of a Robodozer. NATURALLY. If Eywa makes them break instinct, like in the Attack on the Tree of Souls, then imagine the size of that swarm.
“Hell imagine now if aliens got a hive in a major city and the pied piper set all the rats on them. It’d be death by a thousand cuts.”
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I don’t see rats doing particularly well against Xenos. i don’t think they could even hurt them, and any larger Xenos would be getting killionaires every other second.
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“If Hellfire Wasps attack, they’re too small to really hurt, or impregnate, and they come in swarms the size of a Robodozer. NATURALLY. If Eywa makes them break instinct, like in the Attack on the Tree of Souls, then imagine the size of that swarm.”
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Xenomorphs’ carapaces are resistant to various small arms fire, so how is the stinger going to do anything? And being sparrow-sized, it wouldn’t exactly be hard for the Xenomoprhs to swat them right out of the air.
What TMWTA said. Besides that would the insects be able to even see down there and would they even be able to function with the pressure of being underground bearing down on them and the increasing lack of oxygen.
“That… actually made sense. If Hellfire Wasps attack, they’re too small to really hurt, or impregnate, and they come in swarms the size of a Robodozer. NATURALLY. If Eywa makes them break instinct, like in the Attack on the Tree of Souls, then imagine the size of that swarm.”
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TMWTA said it. But not all of it. One, if a 12 gauge needs to be at point blank to do damage, how are wasps going to get through? Second, Xenos are immune to poison…sooooo yeah.
okeeeyyy glanced over most posts of the thread..
my initial bet was pandora cause of eywa..
but then i saw that post about xenos adabdabilty (which i totaly forgot)
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now the most importart things:
in which way would a link to the plant network help the xenos if at all..
would that truely provide them f.e.
the location of animal nests or the places were the different clans live? or even the location of eywa
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what would speak against someone from the clans informing eywa of the xenothread (assuming they realised it before it´s to late)
so she can react as she did against the humans?
- i don´t realy care if eywa is sentient or not..thing is she has been warnedonce
she had a soul with memories from the thread and directed the wildlife to it
(well at least that seemed so to me) ..
I think that means that if the Na’vi warn Eywa of the Xenos, she’ll be able to send an army to wipe them out.
The question is, how big of an army will be necessary? And will she send a big enough army the first time? And something I just thought of , Eywa didn’t wipe out the humans, she just drove them back. And CIS suggests that she will not wipe out the xenos, since she has never shown to do so. Unless she kills EVERY single xeno, the fight goes on.
Notice how the humans were so beaten they had no chance whatsoever of winning? They would’ve died if they’d stayed.
Notice how humans aren’t biological weapons created to adapt and breed in a very short amount of time. If one xeno is left, it will turn into a queen and start the whole process over. The only way Pandora will win, is if it they infiltrate the hive and kill everything. The very same hive is full of Warriors, Drones, Two Praetorians and the Queen. It is where the Xenos are at their most effective, the hive is dark, the creep is the same pattern as the Xeno exoskeleton, making them invisible when not moving.
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The xeno will not fight colonial style. They will not have their entire force out in the open lined up waiting to die. Stealth is their forte. Not to say that a xeno can’t solo anything on Pandora. Even if Eywa destroys the Xeno that are in the open, the majority of the swarm is at the hive.
Just a quick question about face huggers, is it ever actually said that they subdue their target by asphyxiation? I mean whenever they are shown attacking anyone the target is down in seconds which shouldn’t be possible with asphyxiation.
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Is it possible that they use a toxin or something to render their target unconscious so quickly?
@itcheyness
The facehugger raps it’s tail around the targets neck, and then cuts off circulation to the brain.
“The question is, how big of an army will be necessary? And will she send a big enough army the first time? And something I just thought of , Eywa didn’t wipe out the humans, she just drove them back. And CIS suggests that she will not wipe out the xenos, since she has never shown to do so. Unless she kills EVERY single xeno, the fight goes on.”
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hmmm can´t say much about that..
at worst it becomes a war of attrition which would likely favor the xenos i suppose..biggest problem is the navi don´t have the equipment to efficiently deal with a built up hive imo nor do i see how the pandorian wildlive could deal with it…
well..unless the navi develope some nappalmlike weaponry and then be somewhat suicidical to kill the aliens in the hive..
i don´t realy see how they could deal with them in the long run..they could only deal with those that are out in the forrest..
and the aliens do not have neccesarily to focus on just one queen..
meaning..if they decide to do so
they could build a second, third or even more hives up would probably then decide who will be the leadqueen..ah well from here on it realy can only become worse..
@Sorrow
But in Aliens Ripley has the tale around her neck for a fair bit of time without losing consciousness, enough time for the marines to get there and save her. Wouldn’t a choke like that put her down pretty quickly even if the rest of the facehugger wasn’t on her?
“But in Aliens Ripley has the tale around her neck for a fair bit of time without losing consciousness, enough time for the marines to get there and save her. Wouldn’t a choke like that put her down pretty quickly even if the rest of the facehugger wasn’t on her?”
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Firstly, Plot armor. Secondly, maybe the facehugger wanted to get the egg down her throat before it constricted its tail, severely blocking access?
Wouldn’t it just choke her out first and then ease up to get the egg down her throat? It seems like a better idea to get the target down quickly so that they have less of an opportunity to fight back.
“Wouldn’t it just choke her out first and then ease up to get the egg down her throat? It seems like a better idea to get the target down quickly so that they have less of an opportunity to fight back.”
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*insert your momma joke about swallowing when unconscious*
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I think the whole thing is, egg first, no matter what, that is its prime directive. Doesnt matter if the victim is awake or not, doesnt matter if the victim leaves the area. Egg gets priority, dont waste time and risk struggle trying to subdue a target before implanting. Thats all secondary.
“Is it possible that they use a toxin or something to render their target unconscious so quickly?”
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This is actually a topic of debate in and of itself. There are several instances when a fugger knocks it’s target out way too quickly for it to have been choked out. Maybe they do use some kind of chemical.
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“and the aliens do not have neccesarily to focus on just one queen..
meaning..if they decide to do so
they could build a second, third or even more hives up would probably then decide who will be the leadqueen..ah well from here on it realy can only become worse..”
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Once the first hive is up and running, they will try and set up more. Once enough hives are set up, the original Queen is now an Empress. She will have planet wide control over every xeno. This is basically end game result for the enos.
So off topic, but I wanted to share with with others who haven’t seen it. If you have a spare hour and twenty minutes, this is well worth your time. Absolutely hilarious. Especially for Star Wars fans.
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www.stumbleupon.com/su/31gLtt/:18FLihmf.:Q$u@tA0t/io9.com/5913527/watch-cartoon-voice-actors-read-the-star-wars-trilogy-as-bubbles-bender-and-captain-kirk/
If they do use some kind of chemical, that would explain being able to impregnate the Space Jockey and would provide a way for them to impregnate a Thanator and get massive Xenomorphs…
Well, it has been said that a normal fugger can impregnate something as large as an elephant. I’ll try and find a link.
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Impregnating bigger animals isn’t a problem really, even without chemicals. The Drones and Warriors cocoon larger animals for easy impregnating.
Eh, I just looked up xenos acid blood, the going theory is that its either hydrogen chloride or hydrogen sulphide because of how it reacts, the speed it reacts and the fumes it gives off.
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Pandora’s atmosphere contains hydrogen sulphide, its what burns the lungs of humans after the high CO2 knocks them out. That actually means that the pandoran ecosystem has a 50% chance of having a very strong resistance or even an outright immunity to xenos blood.
So, they won’t be as affected if they bite the face huggers. So, what animals will the Xenos most likely start with, and, what animals will effectively wipe them out if Eywa sends an army. They’ll almost definitely be destroyed if there’s any large animals near them. Even a large pack of Viperwolves, especially with the subspecies, might get rid of them initially. Or, a flock of Ikran, or a lone Leonoptyrex (highly unlikely they’ll meet one.)
“Eh, I just looked up xenos acid blood, the going theory is that its either hydrogen chloride or hydrogen sulphide because of how it reacts, the speed it reacts and the fumes it gives off.”
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There are a few problems I have with this.
1. It’s just a theory. It isn’t canon.
2. Xeno blood doesn’t in any way, shape, or form look anything like either of those acids.
3. Both of those acids are relatively weak when compared with the Xeno’s acid.
4. Even if the Xeno’s blood is one of those acids, the acid in the atmosphere of Pandora is very diluted, or the human’s skin would have dissolved in short order after being exposed to the air outside their base and mechs. Instead, it just burned the lungs. The acid of the Xenos would have to be a very highly concentrated form of hydrochloric or sulfuric acid to be that strong, so it would burn through Pandoran wildlife anyway considering there’s only a very small amount of acid in the atmosphere. Which means, not anywhere approaching enough for resistance, let alone immunity.
This theory also originated from AvP. Which isn’t canon. The acid has never been given a name. It is simply “acid blood”.
Oh yeah, and the Drones can spit their acid, meaning a single drone has a very good chance at killing something much larger.
Sorry for the triple post guys. But I found the quote I was looking for.
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” Ripley commented that this parasitoid would likely be able to use a host as small as a cat, or as large as an elephant.”
Someone was asking about the footprint of human operations on Pandora. It turns out to be about 12 square kilometers total, a little over nine in hells gate (where the main base, production facilities, and starport are), and a little under two square kilometers of strip mine (as of the start of the movie) according to the page 19 of the James Cameron’s Avatar: An Activist Survival Guide. It is not a very large area as far as Pandora goes.
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I was going to reply to the acid theory, but HoP beat me to it.
@Pandora side
Is there anything else in defense because rereading the thread I think most things boil down to when/if Ewya decides to respond and the lethality of said response. Plus remember that yes one xeno left alive restarts the wrecking
We need midnight marauder here, I think he said that the facehuggers shoot in a toxin or something that paralizes the target.
The oxigen bags are not important here, they are used to suminister air to the target do to the hard grip of facehugger and covering any sort of oxigen path, this doesn’t seem to be the case of many animals in pandora, only will be used if they are to impregnate a Na’vi or those other mankey look alikes that was said to be similar to the Na’vis.
so how’s the match looking right now?
Ravager soloooooos.
@Behemoth
Yes….indeed.
@Omegami
That theory has never been confirmed.
@Primus
That is exactly where this debate is. I say since Eywa has never shown to notice threats on her own, something would have to alert her. Since Xenos are masters of stealth, anything that happens to see a xeno has probably been hunted by the same xeno for awhile. So the hive would have to reach a good size to be noticeable.
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Also, Eywa has never shown to completely wipe out a threat, she sends enough troops to merely drive the threat back. And since she would have to kill every xeno to win this match, she would have to know where the hive is. Which she won’t.
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Having said that, +1 for Xenos.
And either Cana is cooking up some epic post bringing up new points. I would say this match is done.
This is unsolvable, since it’s an invasion with animals. With a city, you can say that there would or would not be someone where they land. However, how can we say whether or not there I’ll be animals there? Also, the Na’vi are going to notice a huge hunk of flaming metal crashing 15 minutes from their village, and follow it. Probably use Ikrans to get a better view. Then spear the Xenos. Or if they don’t see anything, they’re screwed.
Yes….because the xenos will just stay and chill and their crash site. The second they land, hive set up time bitches. And no…..it’s not unsolvable, if theey land and no one sees them, win. If someone does see them, they kill it, and win.
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And if it was truly unsolvable, it didn’t stop you from supporting Pandora for 7 pages.
Just a thought here, in the Avatar movie, it was stated that the entire planet was like a network. If an infected Navi were to access this network, wouldn’t the xenomorphs be able to turn the Navi advantage against them?
@V
In theory yes. Although I don’t see how it would be really necessary. The network is used by the Na’vi to communicate and bond with the planet and it’s inhabitants. If the Xenos wanted to communicate, they would just infect an animal, now the animal is part of their hive mind, and it’s another Xeno to fight for the hive.
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Of course their is the possibility that the first Xeno would “hack” the network. Since all the memories are stored in the Trees, theoretically once the Xeno connected with the tree, all the memories and experiences of previous Na’vi could be available to the hive now, which could prove to be very helpful. Now that I typed it, I think this is yet another tactic they can use to their advantage.
Yeah… But if the Xenos have both minds, the natives can do the same. Also, wouldn’t hacking the network itself be equivalent to hacking an entire planet?
Continuing off of you Reaper, if the Alien Queen were to hack into the network, it would learn all about the Navi’s history. It could turn rival factions against one another, aim for strategic weak points, etc.
My Vote: Xenomorphs
It would probably just give them an insight into Navi strategy and warn them about Eywa’s penchant for dealing with threats with large numbers of animals, so they would probably be even more careful and let their numbers build up by only taking small amounts of prey until they have a good sized force.
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or it could tell them where to go to get the flying animals while they sleep.
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+3 for Xenos
” I would say this match is done.”
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I wouldn’t say so.
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“Also, Eywa has never shown to completely wipe out a threat, she sends enough troops to merely drive the threat back. And since she would have to kill every xeno to win this match, she would have to know where the hive is. Which she won’t.”
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The “only send enough troops to drive a threat back” thing may have been influenced by Jake knowing the size of the forces. On top of that, Eywa still sends enough forces to severely cripple an enemy force. If Eywa mobilizes, it could reduce the Xeno size to the point where the Na’vi could finish them off. Figuring out where the hive is could be figured out simply by attacking from all sides.
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“Of course their is the possibility that the first Xeno would “hack” the network. Since all the memories are stored in the Trees, theoretically once the Xeno connected with the tree, all the memories and experiences of previous Na’vi could be available to the hive now, which could prove to be very helpful.”
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That would be akin to trying to hack an entire brain through one brain cell. It is also possible for Eywa to hack the Xeno back, because if the Xeno is connected to Eywa, then Eywa has an influence on it.
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On the flip side of this, if Eywa is unable to finish off the Xenos but is still able to strike back at them, then the Xenos will regrow until they reach “critical mass”. This cycle may just continue until both sides evolve around each other. Eventually the Xenos connect to Eywa, get involved in the ecosystem, and then boom, Pandora now has a badass apex predator.
@Epi
I’m not so sure. If it were two tribes of Na’vi trying to hack each other, the instant one tribe connects to a tree attempting to find info on the second tribe, the second tribe will know all about the first. This is because they are both Na’vi.
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In the case of the Xenos, once they bond with a Na’vi, they are still Xeno except with Na’vi attributes. The would have adapted some form of the queue (spelling?), but since they are still Xenos, not natives of Pandora, they could not be reverse hacked since the Na’vi cannot, in any way, enter the mind of a Xeno.
@Aelfinn
Or, the Xenomorphs grow to critical mass, and the Hive Mind-having access to the network-generates a new being like Eywa, and the two fight for dominance, eventually coming to an understanding and merging; setting the state for the genesis of a greater lifeform, from the melding of the species to create something awe inspiring and horrifying and terrible and beautiful.
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They shall be known as the Tyranids!
“The “only send enough troops to drive a threat back” thing may have been influenced by Jake knowing the size of the forces. On top of that, Eywa still sends enough forces to severely cripple an enemy force. If Eywa mobilizes, it could reduce the Xeno size to the point where the Na’vi could finish them off. Figuring out where the hive is could be figured out simply by attacking from all sides.”
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That further proves my point, if Jake didn’t know how many forces the humans had, Eywa would have to send an estimated force. Since he did, Eywa should have known exactly how strong of a force to send to completely destroy the humans. But she didn’t.
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“That would be akin to trying to hack an entire brain through one brain cell. It is also possible for Eywa to hack the Xeno back, because if the Xeno is connected to Eywa, then Eywa has an influence on it.”
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Not true, the connection using the queue is much stronger than that. Also, Eywa has no influence on the Xenos. The Queen is the ultimate authority for the Xenos. Her influence trumps all. Besides, the Xenos only take attributes that benefit them, their biology wouldn’t allow the Queens authority to be undermined by a hosts characteristic.
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And I can’t believe I forgot abut the Queen Mother. When a planet has several hives, an Empress (the original Queen on the planet) controls them all. But the Queen Mother controls the entire species. Not sure if that has any effect on this match, just thought it was interesting.
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On Xeno tree hacking:
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That sounds … like… creepy. I do forget though, can the Na’vi take memories from the trees? Can they “download” or is it strickly “uploading” only? Because your post (650) seems to imply that two way interaction is possible (with, Xeno’s learning Na’vi expirences via the tree), so shouldn’t it be possible for the Na’vi to double back on that and learn Xeno expirences after the Xeno’s start tapping into the network?
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Related, but I forget, do Xeno’s have a hive mind or just mildly phsycic/nonverbal? I recall in Aliens the Queen makes obvious gestures to command away some Warriors, but I don’t recall if they were ever stated to be straight up phsycic or singluar in mind. Cause if they are then wouldn’t having just one Xeno hooked up effectively be the same as all of them hooked up? I could see that leading to some problems when the Na’vi try to counter spy, but I’m getting ahead of myself and making assumptions now.
@Ori
Eh, its kinda in the air as far as I know. The latest AVP games kinda gave me the impression that there is some kind of higher intelligence linking the entire species.
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For example, Number Six felt the Matriarch’s death, which incapacitated “her” and then caused Six to transform into a Praetorian, with pretty heavy foreshadowing that it would become a New Queen.
“On the flip side of this, if Eywa is unable to finish off the Xenos but is still able to strike back at them, then the Xenos will regrow until they reach “critical mass”. This cycle may just continue until both sides evolve around each other. Eventually the Xenos connect to Eywa, get involved in the ecosystem, and then boom, Pandora now has a badass apex predator.”
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This just brought up a new point. The initial Xenos that hatch on Pandora will be more or less similar to the ones we know. Until they start impregnating the wildlife that is. But if the Xeno are overrun and their numbers are severely reduced, this is more of an advantage than anything. The Xenos do not evolve to “cooperate” with a planet, they evolve to destroy it. So the longer the Xenos are on Pandora, the more they evolve to fit their surrounding. Eventually they will hatch as Pandora-specified fuggers. And every Xeno will have evolved the combat Pandorans more efficiently.
“they could not be reverse hacked since the Na’vi cannot, in any way, enter the mind of a Xeno.”
..is rather speculative..while both won´t control each other..a navi could get some infos out of a defeated (or imobilised) xeno with navi traids..as that same xeno may get info out of eywa.. but again this is speculative
addendum:
though if that was the case
then netiri should have been able to get info from jake the moment they linked each other
Well, Jake was only an Avatar for so long. And he spent most of that time with Netiri. So any info might have been shared already.
“That further proves my point, if Jake didn’t know how many forces the humans had, Eywa would have to send an estimated force. Since he did, Eywa should have known exactly how strong of a force to send to completely destroy the humans. But she didn’t.”
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This proves that Eywa isn’t malevolent, as she knew that the humans posed a threat to her entire existence. If the Xenos keep coming back and appear as a threat again and again, she would certainly try to finish them. You don’t let a constant threat to your life live after they try to kill you for the fifth time.
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“Not true, the connection using the queue is much stronger than that. ”
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That’s only at the Tree of Souls. Other than that, the connection between trees is pretty weak.
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“Also, Eywa has no influence on the Xenos. The Queen is the ultimate authority for the Xenos. Her influence trumps all. Besides, the Xenos only take attributes that benefit them, their biology wouldn’t allow the Queens authority to be undermined by a hosts characteristic.”
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Are they connecting to Eywa through a Na’vi-esque USB cable? If so, an entire planet’s mind is bigger than one Alien’s. That’s even if there is a Hive Mind to begin with. A connection may be proven, but as far as I’ve seen, the Aliens don’t all have a singular mind.
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“This just brought up a new point. The initial Xenos that hatch on Pandora will be more or less similar to the ones we know. Until they start impregnating the wildlife that is. But if the Xeno are overrun and their numbers are severely reduced, this is more of an advantage than anything. The Xenos do not evolve to “cooperate” with a planet, they evolve to destroy it. So the longer the Xenos are on Pandora, the more they evolve to fit their surrounding. Eventually they will hatch as Pandora-specified fuggers. And every Xeno will have evolved the combat Pandorans more efficiently.”
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They are still facing a severe numbers advantage, and there is a limit to how much they can evolve from the Pandorans and food they can procure from the environment. Remember, the Xenos are estimated to have around 400 members at the size of the human encampment.
@OriginalA
Xeno have a hive mind. The Queen is the ultimate authority. The Xenos do nothing unless she orders it, or if it will benefit the hive. The Queen other is the ruler of the entire species across the galaxy, and Empresses are rulers of planets. If Empresses can communicate with every xeno across a planet, it’s logical to say that the Queen Mother can communicate with Empresses across the galaxy.
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And the Na’vi can upload memories and download them. And yes, the Xenos share a collective conscious meaning what one knows, they all know.
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And nothing trumps the Queens authority, nothing, so I doubt the tree hacking will result in Eywa being in control of the Xenos. And the only way the Na’vi will know about the Xeno is if the Xenos download. Which they won’t, seeing as how that won’t benefit the hive at all.
“And nothing trumps the Queens authority, nothing,”
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I’m going to say NLF when going against a planet-mind.
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This is also assuming that the entire network would be available through one tree. It’s also assuming that the Xeno’s would develop the USB cable. On top of THAT, it would also make Eywa aware of the Xeno threat and what they can do.
” If the Xenos keep coming back and appear as a threat again and again, she would certainly try to finish them.”
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She has never shown that ability. She probably only sent enough to send the humans running in order to minimize loses to her children.
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“That’s only at the Tree of Souls. Other than that, the connection between trees is pretty weak.”
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Well….yeah. But that doesn’t matter. The only way the Xenos will be able to hack the network is through the ToS.
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“Are they connecting to Eywa through a Na’vi-esque USB cable? If so, an entire planet’s mind is bigger than one Alien’s. That’s even if there is a Hive Mind to begin with. A connection may be proven, but as far as I’ve seen, the Aliens don’t all have a singular mind.”
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The queue is essentially a bio-USB. And if it really was “a planet’s mind against one” Jake’s head would have exploded every time he connects. And the Xeno would have an adapted queue, so it would be perfectly compatible with Eywa, seeing as how a human consciousness connecting was not a problem. Eywa apparently doesn’t discriminate.
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“In the Aliens literature, it has been suggested that the creatures have a hive mind, or a collective consciousness directed by the Queen, who can call back and give orders to her warriors, telepathically and with shrieks. ”
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“Through cloning in the events surrounding Alien: Resurrection (noted in the novelization), it appears that the xenomorphs’ hive mind includes a collective memory that passes along even at a genetic level. Through the tests conducted on Ellen Ripley, it is revealed that the memory passed from Ripley onto the new generation of xenomorphs allows them to read and understand different languages. ”
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aliens.wikia.com/wiki/Xenomorph
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“They are still facing a severe numbers advantage, and there is a limit to how much they can evolve from the Pandorans and food they can procure from the environment. Remember, the Xenos are estimated to have around 400 members at the size of the human encampment.”
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Well, when they reach their limit, they are perfectly adapted to Pandora now. So…yeah. And I’m not sure if Xenos even need to eat once they reach the adult stage. They have never been shown eating, at least from what I remember. And can I get a link regarding that numbers claim? Not calling you a liar or anything, but I would like to read that.
“I’m going to say NLF when going against a planet-mind.”
===
It’s not going against a planet mind. The Xenos all stem from a Queen, they are not native to Pandora, Eywa has no influence on them. They have been under her control since the very first Xeno. It’s basically millenia of listening to a Queen vs a planet with little to no control.
” It’s also assuming that the Xeno’s would develop the USB cable. ”
===
The xenos take the traits that are necessary to adapt to their environment. The queue is essential.
“She has never shown that ability. She probably only sent enough to send the humans running in order to minimize loses to her children.”
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It isn’t really an “ability”, as CIS would only drive the Xenos back the first couple of times. It would become PIS if she didn’t just overwhelm the Xenos the seventeenth time she fought them.
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“The queue is essentially a bio-USB. And if it really was “a planet’s mind against one” Jake’s head would have exploded every time he connects.”
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Jake was not trying to hack Eywa, though. Eywa would fight back if attacked.
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“And can I get a link regarding that numbers claim? Not calling you a liar or anything, but I would like to read that.”
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It’s on the last page. It was when I crunched all of those numbers. I had to use some (quite a few) assumptions, but they were all I had to go on. I used jungles from Earth and basic biological laws.
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“Well, when they reach their limit, they are perfectly adapted to Pandora now. So…yeah. ”
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That’s a pretty big assumption. Also, being “perfectly adapted” does not mean unkillable.
“The Xenos all stem from a Queen, they are not native to Pandora, Eywa has no influence on them. ”
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Eywa is able to influence things that connect with her. As you said, she doesn’t discriminate with minds, and she was able to interact with Jake.
Well, she was able to listen to him, unless you mean that freaky vodoun soul transfer thing. But that seems to require lots of Na’vi participating so we don’t know exactly what it would do to a Xeno.
Hacking may sound to aggressive. Either you connect to Eywa, or you don’t. There isn’t a good or bad connection. The Xenos will just connect to a tree and download any info. If you have a queue, you can connect to a tree.
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“It’s on the last page. It was when I crunched all of those numbers. I had to use some (quite a few) assumptions, but they were all I had to go on. I used jungles from Earth and basic biological laws.”
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Were you referring to the number of humans at the encampment? If so, that is not a limit to the Xeno numbers. They can still knock up anything that moves.
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“Eywa is able to influence things that connect with her. As you said, she doesn’t discriminate with minds, and she was able to interact with Jake.”
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Influence and interact are two different things. You have no evidence that suggests Eywa will have any influence over a species that she has never encountered, a species that has taken over many planets, a species that for thousands of years has NEVER been pulled away from the authority of the Queen, even with the many planets and different species they have encountered. And a species that no matter what creature it impregnates, always retains their hive mind, no matter what attributes they take. And like I said, a species that ONLY takes attributes that benefit them will not allow the Queen to be undermined.
“Related, but I forget, do Xeno’s have a hive mind or just mildly phsycic/nonverbal? I recall in Aliens the Queen makes obvious gestures to command away some Warriors, but I don’t recall if they were ever stated to be straight up phsycic or singluar in mind. Cause if they are then wouldn’t having just one Xeno hooked up effectively be the same as all of them hooked up? I could see that leading to some problems when the Na’vi try to counter spy, but I’m getting ahead of myself and making assumptions now.”
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The Hive Mind is psychic according to the books. The Empress can guide her children over the expanse of the planet and The Queen Mothers can guide her children from across many solar systems. Her psychic power is so acute that she can actually telepathically interact with humans who have latent psychic abilities from long distances and interact with normal humans within close proximity and influence them to varying degrees depending on their mental health and resilience.
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“Are they connecting to Eywa through a Na’vi-esque USB cable? If so, an entire planet’s mind is bigger than one Alien’s. That’s even if there is a Hive Mind to begin with. A connection may be proven, but as far as I’ve seen, the Aliens don’t all have a singular mind.”
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Actually they do. They all are subordinate and psychically connected to the Queen. She sees what they see. This is confirmed in Aliens: Nightmare Asylum, AvP: Hunt, and AvP 2011. They are 1 mind and 1 body.
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“They are still facing a severe numbers advantage, and there is a limit to how much they can evolve from the Pandorans and food they can procure from the environment. Remember, the Xenos are estimated to have around 400 members at the size of the human encampment.”
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Xenos don’t require food like we do. They can go for years without it. The only nutrients they need is when they are first implanted and they get those from the host. Once they bust out it takes but hours to reach maturity and the exoskeleton to harden. That’s another advantage they have. They can become lethal killing machines within 7 hours while it takes Pandoran creatures weeks or months to reach adulthood. You guys forget that the first Alien took place from start to finish after the thing was hatched in under 24hrs.
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Red summed it up pretty damn well. Like I said, the Queen’s influence is stupid strong when it comes to the Xenos. Xenos win this math 9 times out of 10. And the only way Pandora can win, is if it destroys EVERY Xeno, EVERY egg, EVERY fugger, EVERY Xeno-Pandoran, EVERY hive, and EVERY body they find since it might be infected. And seeing as how they have no way to tell, some of the Na’vi might be infected and not even know it.
Yeah, okay, it seems that Xenomorphs don’t actually have a Hive Mind then.
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You, Reaper, and you, ReDrum, both make it clear that it is psykic communication. Hive Mind would be one consciousness with many bodies…. kinda like the Borg, but the writters screwed that up so that isn’t even a true example anymore.
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I forget my point to why this distinction was important though.
“You, Reaper, and you, ReDrum, both make it clear that it is psykic communication. Hive Mind would be one consciousness with many bodies…. kinda like the Borg, but the writters screwed that up so that isn’t even a true example anymore”
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It depends on the scenario. If its just a pack of Xenos with no Queen they act as animals with self-preservation instincts active because they must survive in order to continue the species. However once a Queen is present all forms of free-will and self-preservation is stripped and they become 1 body directed by the Queen. Hence why the Xeno in Alien 1 picked off the Nostromos crew 1 at a time instead of just going all in and killing everyone and same with the runner from 3. However under the direction of the Queen she would send 100s of them to their death at a time to protect 1 egg.
I’m curious- I haven’t scanned through the whole debate, but if the Word of God argument about the Thanator and the Alien Queen is true, then I have a question.
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What happens if say, Scott Snyder comes out and says, “Batman kicks a ton of ass, he can easily defeat Captain America.” But then, the writer of Captain America comes out and says, “Captain America is awesome, he can pwn Batman.” So what happens then?
@Original
I’m not too sure how you came to the conclusion that we said they don’t have a hive mind, even though I provided quotes stated that it is a hive mind. The Xeno do have a collective conscious. What one Xeno knows, the rest knows. The only psychic connection is the communication between the Queen and her minions. In a traditional hive mind like bees or ants, the Queen doesn’t remotely command the troops, they have to be in close proximity to receive orders. The psychic connection simply makes communication over long distance possible.
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@The Black Crusader
The scenario you described shows the problem with the previous Word of God argument we had. Cameron’s illogical opinion is not true at all. If it was it just opened up a shit storm of other possibilities.
@Original
If my post doesn’t convince you, try this.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_mind_(science_fiction)
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Scroll down to films.
“What happens if say, Scott Snyder comes out and says, “Batman kicks a ton of ass, he can easily defeat Captain America.” But then, the writer of Captain America comes out and says, “Captain America is awesome, he can pwn Batman.” So what happens then?”
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Nothing happens. Just because you say your creation can beat someone else’s, doesn’t mean it’s true. They have to show how it can beat said creation.
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For example, if I wrote a book about rabid squirrels terrorizing a small town until they figured out that the squirrels’ only weakness were brooms, and then later said one of those squirrels could solo Galactus, The Living Tribunal, and Lucifer Morningstar, my having created the squirrel doesn’t make that true. I’d have to show HOW my rabid squirrel could solo 3 cosmic entities.
I’m curious but, since the xenos will take the queue(I think that’s what it’s called)could they connect with Eywa make something up about where the hive is, set up an ambush, and once all the Pandoran animals get to the location just attack the force that was sent and get some more Xeno-pandorans? Hopefully that makes sense. I don’t really think it’d be an issue if they couldn’t, it seems like it’s already been established that the xenos win this.
@Chicano444
When compared to the other tactics that the Xeno can and will deploy, that one seems unnecessary.
Eh, I’m all mixed up with the Hive Mind concept right now. My bad.
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On the other hand, I did remember my point!
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Assuming a Xeno-Na’vi hybrid can link up with the world of Pandora, and tap into that… stuff, then it can communicate that information to all the rest of the hive in real time. This would allow unlinked Xenomorphs access to that information system even though they don’t have a physical link to it at that time. Contrast the Na’vi who would have to maintain a physical link in order to gather the same information and then verbally shout that information in order to update other Na’vi on what he has learned.
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And thus, the Xenos have wireless internet! It makes for a good scouting method I think, and battlefield information flow.
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Of course, I’m under the impression that they can use the network as a kind of radar/scrying method in order to “see” or at least be aware of things that are several miles away. And I’m assuming the Na’vi can do the same as well.
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So the way it is boiling down in my mind is thus:
You got a Xeno (in red base) and a Na’vi (in blue base) sitting in a secure place hooked up the nature and whatnot. They are using that network to “look” for enemy movements. Both of them can find the enemy troops, but due to the Xeno’s mind link they can upload that information straight to the troops, where as the Na’vi has to tell a Na’vi, who then gets on a bird, flies to the troops, and then tells the commander “We got enemy troops in sector 3-7″. Since the Xeno’s can communicate much faster that would allow them to make better choices based on real time data versus 5-30 minute old data.
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Since I didn’t really pay all that much attention to how the whole network thing works though I’m not sure that is how it would go down. So this whole post may be irrelivant.
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Someone please confirm/deny if this is possible?
@I-REAPER-I I know, I was just wondering if it was possible, even though it really isn’t necessary.
“And thus, the Xenos have wireless internet!”
And the Na’vi got the Dire Horse Express.
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And in response to your proposed scenario. I’ve never seen the Na’vi tap into the network and access anything like “radar”, but since the collective memories of generations upon generations of Na’vi are stored in the ToS. Meaning that any information about location and size of tribes, areas not often traveled by Na’vi (perfect hive set ups), and even military strategies are all at the Xeno’s disposal. Now, maybe a Drone or Warrior won’t be able to make much use of this info, but the Queen has an IQ of 175, so once she get’s the info, which should be instantly, she can command her minions according to the info she received.
@I-REAPER-I Hmmm, I see(kind of), so in other words a Drone or Warrior wouldn’t be able to, but the Queen could?
“ That is exactly where this debate is. I say since Eywa has never shown to notice threats on her own, something would have to alert her. Since Xenos are masters of stealth, anything that happens to see a xeno has probably been hunted by the same xeno for awhile. So the hive would have to reach a good size to be noticeable.
==
Also, Eywa has never shown to completely wipe out a threat, she sends enough troops to merely drive the threat back. And since she would have to kill every xeno to win this match, she would have to know where the hive is. Which she won’t. “
==
Eywa was never shown in any situation where there was a threat that warranted a strong response according to the criteria that was mentioned several times, that is anything that recognizably threatened the balance. The humans were not doing anything particularly alarming or harming the environment any worse than the most minor of natural disasters. Bombing the home tree was not even incredibly significant on that scale. Eywa took casual potshots at them through the animals and plants and they took potshots at the more dangerous animals and the situation stayed the same for years; in fact in twenty years the humans built an ugly home (Hells Gate) that if the map table is accurate scale is not much bigger than the Omaticaya home tree in ground coverage and dug around in the dirt to feed their big yellow mounts in a small area and generally caused minor annoyances. The human population (blind, deaf, stupid creatures that do not know how to do anything without making a mess that they are) did not grow much over those years either. Nothing especially alarming until Eywa followed Jakes suggestion and looked into Graces memories to see that Terra was nearly dead and that the humans would slowly do the same to Pandora unless stopped. Saying “Eywa has never been shown to do ” really carries little weight when the entire viewable sample is six months their time of normal status quo with the camera almost entirely focused on Jake and Neytiri.
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Now contrast that with the Xenomorphs. They are extremely aggressive, multiply impossibly fast, and kill anything that moves to feed that growth. They do not even hunt an area out and move on, they occupy whatever they take and keep taking more. That is a far greater threat to the balance of life than anything the humans were doing even during the ‘war’.
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Eywa is aware and intelligent enough to realize that there is something different about Jake and send the seed to block Neytiri’s line of sight as if saying “not this one” as she is drawing to shoot him. It is even possible that Jakes playful demeanor with the spiral plants and the way he dealt with the hammerheads once Grace told him about their territorial display impressed her enough to send the thanator to chase him away from his outworld clan and towards the omaticaya clan territory though that last part is just a theory. Eywa not only prevented Neytiri shooting Jake, when Neytiri is about to leave Jake to his own devices in the jungle rather than take him to the clan a bunch of the seeds show up to settle on him to seemingly underscore the point that he is in her favor and Neytiri should not abandon him. Those actions point to Eywa having a considerable intelligence even if too subtle and deep thinking for some to notice.
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“ It would probably just give them an insight into Navi strategy and warn them about Eywa’s penchant for dealing with threats with large numbers of animals, so they would probably be even more careful and let their numbers build up by only taking small amounts of prey until they have a good sized force. “
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It would also give Eywa a good look at the mind of the xenomorphs which would warn her that they need to be completely destroyed as quickly as possible by any means nessessary.
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===
“ Not true, the connection using the queue is much stronger than that. Also, Eywa has no influence on the Xenos. The Queen is the ultimate authority for the Xenos. Her influence trumps all. Besides, the Xenos only take attributes that benefit them, their biology wouldn’t allow the Queens authority to be undermined by a hosts characteristic. “
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That sounds like two no-limits fallacies in one paragraph. A hive mind that is unassailable by any other mind no matter how powerful (yea, right….) and they only take attributes that benefit them (even if they would not know about the attributes in the first place and would have little idea of whether they would be beneficial or not. Or are they Oracles now?)
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“ And nothing trumps the Queens authority, nothing, so I doubt the tree hacking will result in Eywa being in control of the Xenos. And the only way the Na’vi will know about the Xeno is if the Xenos download. Which they won’t, seeing as how that won’t benefit the hive at all. “
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There is nothing in the Avatar movie or game to suggest that the animals all plug into the plants frequently for updates and orders, so there is apparently some kind of ‘wireless’ at work too to get the animal charge shown in the climax of the battle. Xenomorph no-limits fallacy aside there is a good chance that any xenos from pandoran stock will ‘leak’ at least some information across that non wired connection before the xenos realize it and maybe attempt to fix it.
@Chicano
I don’t think it would be possible. We’ve already made a lot of assumptions to begin with, assuming the Xenos can lie to Eywa is too much.
@I-REAPER-I Ok, thanks.
“Eywa was never shown in any situation where there was a threat that warranted a strong response according to the criteria that was mentioned several times, that is anything that recognizably threatened the balance. The humans were not doing anything particularly alarming or harming the environment any worse than the most minor of natural disasters. Bombing the home tree was not even incredibly significant on that scale. Eywa took casual potshots at them through the animals and plants and they took potshots at the more dangerous animals and the situation stayed the same for years; in fact in twenty years the humans built an ugly home (Hells Gate) that if the map table is accurate scale is not much bigger than the Omaticaya home tree in ground coverage and dug around in the dirt to feed their big yellow mounts in a small area and generally caused minor annoyances. The human population (blind, deaf, stupid creatures that do not know how to do anything without making a mess that they are) did not grow much over those years either. Nothing especially alarming until Eywa followed Jakes suggestion and looked into Graces memories to see that Terra was nearly dead and that the humans would slowly do the same to Pandora unless stopped. Saying “Eywa has never been shown to do ” really carries little weight when the entire viewable sample is six months their time of normal status quo with the camera almost entirely focused on Jake and Neytiri.”
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HUGE contradiction in your post. First you say that the humans didn’t pose that big of a threat, then you say that humans were gonna turn Eywa into Terra, a desolate, used up planet. Eywa knew they were mining the planet for it’s resources, this alone should have been enough. Pandora supporters are saying that Eywa would notice a crashed spaceship, yet you say she didn’t notice the humans drilling and mining for two decades? Right.
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” Saying “Eywa has never been shown to do ” really carries little weight when the entire viewable sample is six months their time of normal status quo with the camera almost entirely focused on Jake and Neytiri.”
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This caught my eye. Are you kidding me? Don’t complain to me that the movie didn’t show feats for Eywa. You basically just said I can’t say Eywa didn’t show said ability…..because the movie, the only canon, didn’t show Eywa using said ability.
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“Eywa is aware and intelligent enough to realize that there is something different about Jake and send the seed to block Neytiri’s line of sight as if saying “not this one” as she is drawing to shoot him. It is even possible that Jakes playful demeanor with the spiral plants and the way he dealt with the hammerheads once Grace told him about their territorial display impressed her enough to send the thanator to chase him away from his outworld clan and towards the omaticaya clan territory though that last part is just a theory. Eywa not only prevented Neytiri shooting Jake, when Neytiri is about to leave Jake to his own devices in the jungle rather than take him to the clan a bunch of the seeds show up to settle on him to seemingly underscore the point that he is in her favor and Neytiri should not abandon him. Those actions point to Eywa having a considerable intelligence even if too subtle and deep thinking for some to notice.”
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Oh shit……what’s the word….fuck I just had it……something about protecting a main character from situations where he should have died without ever providing reasons why he was protected from death…..oh yeah PLOT SHIELDING. And no shit Jake is playful, he just landed on a badass glowing planet, and not only did he gain the ability to move, he moved while in a 10 foot tall alien that is faster, stronger, and more agile than any human. Yeah, of course he is playful. If Eywa had the ability to protect the ones she felt were worthy of saving, she would have protected Grace. And in order to protect Jake from being shot, she would have to be able to see where he is, she cannot track the Na’vi without being connected.
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“It would also give Eywa a good look at the mind of the xenomorphs which would warn her that they need to be completely destroyed as quickly as possible by any means nessessary.”
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I’ll say it again, Eywa cannot read minds. Either you upload memories, or download them. The xenos just need to download.
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“That sounds like two no-limits fallacies in one paragraph. A hive mind that is unassailable by any other mind no matter how powerful (yea, right….) and they only take attributes that benefit them (even if they would not know about the attributes in the first place and would have little idea of whether they would be beneficial or not. Or are they Oracles now?)”
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Eywa cannot read the mind of a creature that has been around for thousands of years under the control of the Queen Mother who controls her minions, ready for it……ACROSS THE GALAXY. Eywa only has planetary control, while the Xenos have galaxy level, so there’s one of your arguments shot to hell. Now for the second. Are you really saying that the Xenos have to KNOW which attributes to take from a host?? Do you have to KNOW you just contracted a flu virus for your body to fight it? NOPE. Biology takes over. The chestburster attaches to the main artery in it’s host so that it can feed and absorb their DNA. And that’s both arguments shot to hell.
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“There is nothing in the Avatar movie or game to suggest that the animals all plug into the plants frequently for updates and orders, so there is apparently some kind of ‘wireless’ at work too to get the animal charge shown in the climax of the battle. Xenomorph no-limits fallacy aside there is a good chance that any xenos from pandoran stock will ‘leak’ at least some information across that non wired connection before the xenos realize it and maybe attempt to fix it.”
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Ummm…my post said nothing about the animals. I was talking about the Na’vi. The Xenos can solo any animal on Pandora. The Na’vi are the ones who frequent the ToS.
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Next argument please.
One more thing BC….leak info? No. The xeno don’t think like humans do, they have one job, breed. They don’t think like we think.
“ HUGE contradiction in your post. First you say that the humans didn’t pose that big of a threat, then you say that humans were gonna turn Eywa into Terra, a desolate, used up planet. Eywa knew they were mining the planet for it’s resources, this alone should have been enough. Pandora supporters are saying that Eywa would notice a crashed spaceship, yet you say she didn’t notice the humans drilling and mining for two decades? Right. “
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It is not a contradiction; the first is how the humans would appear just by their actions on Pandora, the second is what they did to Terra and Graces well grounded fears of them doing the same to Pandora (an opinion she also expressed in dialog elsewhere in the movie) and the knowledge that with enough effort and time the Terrans could actually do it. And who claimed that she did not know the humans were digging around in the dirt? What would Eywa care what the humans did with non-living dirt and rock as long as they were not using them to upset the balance of life?
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“ ” Saying “Eywa has never been shown to do ” really carries little weight when the entire viewable sample is six months their time of normal status quo with the camera almost entirely focused on Jake and Neytiri.”
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This caught my eye. Are you kidding me? Don’t complain to me that the movie didn’t show feats for Eywa. You basically just said I can’t say Eywa didn’t show said ability…..because the movie, the only canon, didn’t show Eywa using said ability. “
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I said it carries little weight, as in using it to try to push the view that Eywa cannot be anything but a passive vegetable computer because it is not definitively shown either way is a case of argument from ignorance. If one sits near a telephone for a while and it does not ring in that time it does not conclusively prove that the telephone is out of order. Also dismissing any possible evidence out of hand with statements like “you cannot trust the words of a dying woman” in order to claim that nothing was said in canon to support Eywa further dilutes the value of the “didn’t show” tactic.
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“ …..oh yeah PLOT SHIELDING. And no shit Jake is playful, he just landed on a badass glowing planet, and not only did he gain the ability to move, he moved while in a 10 foot tall alien that is faster, stronger, and more agile than any human. Yeah, of course he is playful. If Eywa had the ability to protect the ones she felt were worthy of saving, she would have protected Grace. And in order to protect Jake from being shot, she would have to be able to see where he is, she cannot track the Na’vi without being connected. “
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Yes, he is playful which is different from what the scientists shown are like in the field, including Norm Spellman who is just as new to Pandora as Jake is. He is interacting with the environment freely, not standing back observing and judging like the others. A subtle difference perhaps, but a difference nonetheless and something Eywa could have picked up on.
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Yes, in order to protect Jake from Neytiri Eywa would have to know she was going to shoot him and know where to send the seed to show Neytiri the sign. That does imply that Eywa is not a blind deaf veggie brain with no idea what is going on around the world except for what the na’vi tell her over hardwired connections. There are plants, insects, birds, and other animals around constantly, that could be how Eywa senses things. It is entirely possible that Eywa has more communication and control with the animals than she does with the na’vi. For that matter all of the animals shown have two antennae while the na’vi have only one.
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And how would Eywa have stopped Quaritch from shooting Grace? In hells gate there is nothing but non-living materials, humans, and probably some insects. Not a lot to work with even if she decided to intervene in matters between aliens.
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“ I’ll say it again, Eywa cannot read minds. Either you upload memories, or download them. The xenos just need to download. “
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No need to say it again, you have expressed that opinion dozens of times already. Again you are assuming that Eywa is nothing but a passive vegetable memory file server based on nothing but the dumbed down explanation Grace used to try to explain how the biology of the forest supported the na’vi belief that Eywa was a real intelligence in terms the totally unimaginative Selfridge might understand. Later during the transference attempt while she was weak but still appeared to be lucid she reported that she was in contact with Eywa and that she was real. If the only way Eywa could be in contact with the animals was if they were plugged into one of the nexus locations then the mass animal attack during the battle would mean that thousands of them at the very least checked in frequently so why were the nexi not jammed with them in any of the scenes where the groves were shown? There is not only no proof that the only way for any lifeform to communicate with Eywa is by direct physical connection (though the na’vi themselves may need to do so, whoever said they had to be the best communicators?)
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“ Eywa cannot read the mind of a creature that has been around for thousands of years under the control of the Queen Mother who controls her minions, ready for it……ACROSS THE GALAXY. Eywa only has planetary control, while the Xenos have galaxy level, so there’s one of your arguments shot to hell. “
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That is supposition. So the species has been around for a long time, it does not prove that Eywa (who could have been around just as long for all anyone knows) could not read the things mind. Also since telepathy often has no range limits in science fiction “across the galaxy” is not as impressive as you seem to think it is.
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“ Are you really saying that the Xenos have to KNOW which attributes to take from a host?? Do you have to KNOW you just contracted a flu virus for your body to fight it? NOPE. Biology takes over.”
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Fighting a flu virus is a fairly standardized thing, far simpler than trying to do advanced eugenics using unfamiliar alien genetics as the upgrade source. If they simply hybridize with the xenomorph genes being forced into dominance while retaining the hosts traits that do not get overridden by the xenomorph genes would make some sense and would explain what is seen in the movies adequately. Sorry, but to cherrypick unobvious traits from completely unknown lifeforms naturally requires knowing what is available and how to integrate it all without making an unviable mess.
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“ The chestburster attaches to the main artery in it’s host so that it can feed and absorb their DNA. And that’s both arguments shot to hell. “
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Technically Pandoran life does not use DNA itself though it has something that serves the same basic function called NVTranscriptase that took banks of the fastest massively parallel optical computers Terra had ‘many months’ to decode. I suppose the chestburster would not be any worse magic than some of the other Alien stuff though.
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“ Ummm…my post said nothing about the animals. I was talking about the Na’vi. The Xenos can solo any animal on Pandora. The Na’vi are the ones who frequent the ToS. “
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Are you suggesting that the xenos will only use na’vi as hosts and never any other Pandoran species then? While it is undetermined if Eywa can monitor na’vi and they do seem to have some trouble hearing her unless connected physically there is evidence that at least some of the other pandoran life can communicate with Eywa without physical connection which means that there is the possibility of a leak. If the xeno mind is too alien to have any telepathic communications compatibility with any other species then the Pandoran minds would be unable to be read by the xeno.
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The xenos soloing any pandoran animal is your opinion. Cameron has a different one, and frankly I trust his more on this one since he is intimately familiar with the Aliens from previous work and the ultimate authority on the Pandorans.
“The xenos soloing any pandoran animal is your opinion. Cameron has a different one, and frankly I trust his more on this one since he is intimately familiar with the Aliens from previous work and the ultimate authority on the Pandorans.”
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Nothing shown on Pandora could match a praetorian or a queen. Thantors and maybe those hammerhead things MIGHT be able take out a drone or warrior once in a while, but they would die in the process.
The xenos soloing any pandoran animal is your opinion. Cameron has a different one, and frankly I trust his more on this one since he is intimately familiar with the Aliens from previous work and the ultimate authority on the Pandorans.
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You mean the Pandorans he created himself and the Alien series he was upset about because they decided to cross it with the Predator series, something he was against about, three years before Avatar was being made?
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He created all of the Avatar series, so of course he’s going to be bias when it comes to his work. Especially one that is a big moneymaker for him.
“And in response to your proposed scenario. I’ve never seen the Na’vi tap into the network and access anything like “radar”, but since the collective memories of generations upon generations of Na’vi are stored in the ToS. Meaning that any information about location and size of tribes, areas not often traveled by Na’vi (perfect hive set ups), and even military strategies are all at the Xeno’s disposal.”
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Well then, I have a question. If the Na’vi can’t get this info, then how are the Xenos going to get it? Do we know that this information can actually be downloaded, or are we just assuming that because it’s there it can be downloaded? How would a Xeno be able to distinguish the necessary information from the billions of memories from millions of animals?
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“Either you upload memories, or download them. ”
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This is effectively the same question. Besides the transfer of consciousness, have we ever seen a download?
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“Were you referring to the number of humans at the encampment? If so, that is not a limit to the Xeno numbers.”
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I estimated the encampment in terms of square-meterage. Then I used the mass of the Xenos and biological laws to determine how many Xenos could be created using all of the animal biomass in an area.
The Xenos could use those tentacles to link themselves to Eywa and find out where most of the animals accumulate, or they could create a bond with the animals of Pandora and control them, this way will allow the Xenos to impregnate them much easier.
@HoP: You think that nothing could take out a Drone or Warrior without dying? Let’s see… A Thanator, a Titanothere, a large pack of Viperwolves, a flock of Ikran, a few Sturmbeests, or a Leonoptyrex. A large group of Stingers, maybe.
All of those need to strike with their mouths, claws, arms, etc… they risk getting acid sprayed on them, their heads and limbs will melt.
If they survive, then they will walk away with or without limbs (in that case they won’t be able to walk away).
Face it, fighting any Xeno is either a unit death, unit combat incapability or a severely damaged unit for the Pandora side (and if the unit is still alive, that’s a +1 more unit for the Xenos).
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Long range is a must if going up against the Xenos, the Na’vi have a better chance do to this (and they are going to get stomped), even if the Na’vi guns and airships shown int he movie they will still get stomped.
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Face it, the Xenos stomped a more technologically advanced human army (one that would have stomped anything Pandora throws at them) and they started from scrap just like in this match.
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And one more thing, Thanator couldn’t kill Jake and Xenos are more physically capable than a Na’vi, what’s to stop a Drone from jumping on top of a Thanator and spit acid all over it, and now that it comes to that, what’s to stop Drones from climbing up on trees and spray acid at whatever target gets close to their range.
Those Hammer heads can’t go up on trees and Drones are excellent climbers (any Xeno is an excellent climber), those horses can’t go up on trees either, the Xenos have terrain advantage over even in their own planet with the exception of knowledge over it (wich will be discovered ones the new breeds come in play).
This environment, this terrain, it’s nothing new to them except for the species wich can’t keep up with them in terms of combat and ambush tactics.
He does have a point. Jake was able to fumble his way out of reach from the Thanator, and Xenos are much quicker, better jumpers, climbers, and have a number of ways to kill the Thanator.