Suggested by The Knower
Amazingly, our first contestant, Drizzt Do Urden (Forgotten Realms) has yet to earn a FactPile Award, is facing off against a great swordfighter in Achilles.
For this fight, it is limited to swords only. No magic for Drizzt.
Battleground is Minas Anor.
Who wins?
Which Achilles? Achilles of Legend, Achilles of popular fiction?
Depends on which Achilles
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From what I know of Drizzt, im leaning toward him for now
does no magic apply to equipment?
either way drizzt takes this
Well Achilles is invincible to everything, on every part of his body, except his heel. Does Drizzt know about they weakness, or is he fighting blind?
no but he will tire befor drizzt when that happens drizzt can tie him up or something similar
“no but he will tire befor drizzt when that happens drizzt can tie him up or something similar”
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Have we even see Achilles get tired? In mythology and in myth?
Sorry, being redundant there.
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I meant to say, have we seen him get tired in mythology and/or in popular fiction before?
“I meant to say, have we seen him get tired in mythology and/or in popular fiction before?”
no reason he shouldnt get tired .
the legends never mention him useing the bathroom does that mean he dosnt have to?
“I meant to say, have we seen him get tired in mythology and/or in popular fiction before?”
-In Mythology? I don’t think so. He used to be a warrior, but then he took a lucky arrow to the ankle.
“the legends never mention him useing the bathroom does that mean he dosnt have to?”
-It also mentions him fighting for ungodly amounts of time.
“the legends never mention him useing the bathroom does that mean he dosnt have to?”
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I could say sure, but I don’t have any proof.
For all we know, maybe he doesn’t have to, being a half-god.
are magic items allowed because otherwise achilles sromps due to being nearly invinsable
Dude… Grammar…
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Seriously…
Don’t know too much on Drizzt, but leaning toward Achilles due to the whole invincible to everything except for his heel.
Yeah achilles takes this due to invulnerability. Unless Drizzt gets a SERIOUSLY lucky shot. Plus Achilles does have virtually limitless stamina. Then again, who didn’t in greek mythology.
Achelles might be stronger than Drizzt but I think even without his magical Bracers Drizzt should be fast (and definetly accurate) enough to hit Achilles’ heel before he get’s in danger to be hit himselfe…
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Achilles somewhat resembles Obould Many-Arrows which had an Armor which made him completely immune to Drizzt’s weapons and Drizzt hit him in all spots he thought would grant success during the fight until he reallized there was no weak spot…
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So Achilles might have a chance until Drizzt gets the information on the heel…
If Achilles has access to his Spear which is his weapon of choice I’d go with him since Spear and Shield is a tough combination to beat with 2 swords and with Achilles behind it even more so being the Greatest Human Warrior of all time and all that.
Umm, if Drizzt falls into the Hunter then I don’t see how Achilles will be so much as able to touch Drizzt…..much less hurt him.
The Badassery levels has potential to reach Over 9000!
Question in here is this: Will they?
Achilles has invulnerable skin right?
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Can he be hurt by an extremely powerful impact against said skin? Like say if Drizzt were to shoot him with Talmurill?
“Umm, if Drizzt falls into the Hunter then I don’t see how Achilles will be so much as able to touch Drizzt…..much less hurt him.”
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Stop the fanwank. Much less hurt him? Drizzt does not turn into some sort of invulnerable monster. It just allows him to focus better and be more resistant to pain. However if Achilles was to ram that blade through his chest he’d still die.
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“Can he be hurt by an extremely powerful impact against said skin? Like say if Drizzt were to shoot him with Talmurill?”
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Read the description this is a sword fight only. No ranged weapons or magic.
And I still think Achilles should get his spear instead of the sword since that is the weapon his is known for.
“Can he be hurt by an extremely powerful impact against said skin? Like say if Drizzt were to shoot him with Talmurill?”
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Guess not if we take greek mythology, but then again he dies if he gets his heel hurt…
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And Taumaril is full of magic, no?
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If we gave Drizzt Kaz’hidea wouldn’t that be a nice, universe splitting, unstoppable force meets immovable object situation? (if there was no heel that is…) To bad there is no magic
“Achelles might be stronger than Drizzt”
doubt it even if he was it wouldnt help much
wulfgars strength didnt help him against drizzt who could also block attacks from obould
This is gonna become a war of attrition to ensure, isn’t it?
Matches based on wars of attrition are matches I enjoy the most, more times than not.
“Read the description this is a sword fight only. No ranged weapons or magic.”
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Funny claim when you post:
“And I still think Achilles should get his spear instead of the sword since that is the weapon his is known for.” next…
Um, I remember when I read Iliad in high school there was something about him getting hit by a spear and it drawing blood from him.
“but then again he dies if he gets his heel hurt…”
no he died because hewas shot with hercules’s arrows wich were coated with hydra poison(the stuff that killed hercules)
does drizzt know that achilles’s heel is his weakspot?
@fallstar knight
i dont think the poison plays any part (especially since this is the first im hearing of it). i think the ankle just needs to be penetrated.
“no he died because hewas shot with hercules’s arrows wich were coated with hydra poison(the stuff that killed hercules)”
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I think there are more versions of that story but when I read the Illiad (truth be told, that was some years ago) there was just a sole arrow (without poison) in the heel.
still think achilles would win
Proof for the multiple versions:
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“The death of Achilles, as predicted by Hector with his dying breath, was brought about by Paris with an arrow (to the heel according to Statius). In some versions, the god Apollo guided Paris’ arrow. Some retellings also state that Achilles was scaling the gates of Troy and was hit with a poisoned arrow.”
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(Taken from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles)
“Stop the fanwank. Much less hurt him? Drizzt does not turn into some sort of invulnerable monster. It just allows him to focus better and be more resistant to pain. However if Achilles was to ram that blade through his chest he’d still die.”
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I think he meant that because Drizzt’s speed, reaction time, strength etc. get substantially better as the Hunter, Achilles’ already low chances of hitting him get even lower.
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It depends on what version of Achilles we’re using. In the movie Troy, he’s not invulnerable. Seeing as how the shot to the ankle just pissed him off and it was the arrows to the chest that killed him. Troy was a realistic portrayal of the Illiad, and Achilles was just an outstanding warrior.
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In conclusion:
Movie Achilles – Drizzt stomps
Legend Achilles – Could go either way.
plus hercules was killed by centaur venom, not hydra venom. he did coat his arrows w/ hydra venom. i do remember a descendant of heracles fighting for the greeks at troy. that guy used heracles’ arrows, not paris
“i dont think the poison plays any part (especially since this is the first im hearing of it). i think the ankle just needs to be penetrated.”
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No, I’m pretty sure it has to be poisoned. When Achilles was dipped into the River Styx, he was held by his heel. No water got onto the heel, and that part stayed mortal. It’s not like that became a glowing weak point for Link to stab, it just wasn’t anything special. Unless Drizzt has poison, this probably won’t go well for him.
“Funny claim when you post:”
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The spear is not to be thrown. Achilles used his spear mostly for hand to hand combat. While he did throw it at times it mostly stayed in his hand. He is known as the greatest spearman to ever live because of his skill with the spear and shield. Hence why I said he should get his spear instead of his sword not in addition to.
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“does drizzt know that achilles’s heel is his weakspot?”
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Nope.
“doubt it even if he was it wouldnt help much
wulfgars strength didnt help him against drizzt who could also block attacks from obould”
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Which can be chalked up to PIS. Drizzt is only 125lbs or around that. Obould had the strength of a bull. A bull can launch multiple refrigerators into the air with just its neck. A solid hit from Obould should have ripped his arms off and launched him across that mountain. Thus that means that Obould never connected a solid hit or its PIS.
“plus hercules was killed by centaur venom,”
no his wife was decived into beliveing he no longer loved her but if she madehim a shirt soaked in hydra venom he would love her
when hercules sweat mixed with the venom in trhe shirt he died ..slowly
“Thus that means that Obould never connected a solid hit ”
he connected many hits
since drizzt could block oboulds hits both times thet fough its a genuine feat
no hercules shot the centaur. as its blood flowed the centaur caugh the blood with some cup thingy, thats what he gave to heracles wiife
movie or legend archiles equipment is whhat?bronz?
if so its not even skratching drizzts mithril chain or spidersilk shirt
ReDrum
Sir. I was reffering to Drizzt’s endurance and reflex feats skyrocketing while engulfed within the Hunter. Even without the assistance of his alter ego, he has been known to cut arrows out of the air on a fairly regular basis. Btw, I did a bit of research and the average longbow fires an arrow at speeds anywhere from 150 to 250 mph. From what I remember from the movie (if that’s the version we’re using), Achilles never had any reflexes to match that. Then you have the armor to consider. Drizzt uses dwarven mastercrafted chain mail. Achilles uses(movie version) leather? I’ll also admit, I am a fanboy, but not to to a moronic degree. Sir.
“he connected many hits
since drizzt could block oboulds hits both times thet fough its a genuine feat”
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I said he never connected a solid hit. A solid hit would have launched him away. Thus he parried instead of a full on block.
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“Sir. I was reffering to Drizzt’s endurance and reflex feats skyrocketing while engulfed within the Hunter.”
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You said clearly Drizzt cannot be hurt in his alter ego. I can read.
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” Even without the assistance of his alter ego, he has been known to cut arrows out of the air on a fairly regular basis.”
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Noted.
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“rom what I remember from the movie (if that’s the version we’re using), Achilles never had any reflexes to match that. ”
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Then you remember wrong. It was his trademark throughout the movie to slash a man in the throat then do a jumping lunge at another opponent while throwing his shield over his shoulder and onto his back to block incoming arrows and spears. He did that multiple times in the movie. Only time he ever got nailed was when his back was turned. But there was no specific version stated so we go with the classic version who trashes Drizzt.
Drizzt couldn’t block Obould’s blows. In fact if I recall correctly his attempt at it ended rather poorly with his arms damn near paralyzed by the shock of the impact…
i though he was able to block a few times befor that but i also havnt read the book since it was released
ill need to reread the fight, unforunatly the books are packed away because im in the middle of moving
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how does archiles get through drizzts armor
“Can he be hurt by an extremely powerful impact against said skin? Like say if Drizzt were to shoot him with Talmurill?”
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Theoretically anything sufficiently above what can be extrapolated from his feats can hurt Achilles.
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For example, if I can cut Diamond I should be able to penetrate Achilles’ skin, unless there are references to him being tougher than Diamond or something.
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The reason for this is of course NLF.
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If your question was “is blunt force trauma a way to kill Achilles?” Then yes it should be, though again only if it’s above what he has tanked before.
So should we just split this into rounds for Drizzt vs any of the 5 best-suited versions of Achilles for this fight?
Initial bets says this is gonna take a while, and the Badassery that will ensure will be a sight of shock and awe, no doubt.
@Darthgrim
Isn’t it that achilles is immune to all forms of damage except for his heel which is like a regular persons shield in which case drizzt needs poison to kill him as stated before .
also achilles will have troble with drizzt do’urdens armor so this could end up being a match were the contestants can’t hurt each other.
“Isn’t it that achilles is immune to all forms of damage except for his heel”
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Depends on what version we’re using.
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“also achilles will have troble with drizzt do’urdens armor so this could end up being a match were the contestants can’t hurt each other.”
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Drizzt has Mithral armor, and enchanted steel or mithral weapons, which are leaps and bounds ahead of Achilles’ bronze equipment. Drizzt’s equipment will be fine for the whole fight, however, Achilles’ sword will be useless a short time into the fight, and it won’t even be able to put a scratch on Drizzt’s mithral mail anyway. Drizzt already has ridiculous speed, reaction time, skill, and for his relatively small size, ridiculous strength. He outclasses Achilles in every way except maybe strength, and invulnerability, which Achilles may not even get, based on what version we use.
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Even if we use myth Achilles, with invulnerability, his sword will be a nicked and dented piece of detritus in no time at all, and in the long fight that is sure to ensue, Drizzt will eventually hit the heel, whether by design or accident. Achilles just doesn’t have the speed, RT, or equipment to win this.
It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume Achilles could tank something reasonably higher than what he has tanked before.
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IIRC the most he has tanked would be normal swords and probably monster claws or something.
“It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume Achilles could tank something reasonably higher than what he has tanked before.”
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Invulnerable means invulnerable. When it comes to things like Mythology they mean what they say. Especially when its via supernatural means.
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As for the armor Drizzt’s face and neck is still exposed and due to his status as an Elf is inherently weaker then humans as well as lighter. Since Drizzt isn’t that much faster then a human being as seen when he is hit by humans that are significantly slower then he can be caught by Achilles either by his hair or armor, forced to the ground, and stabbed through the throat multiple times or beaten to death. And according to wikipedia all Greek Soldiers knew Pankration which would give Achilles a large, likely insurmountable advantage when coupled by his invulnerability since its the very nasty precursor to modern day MMA but with groin tearing, eye gauging, and other cheep tactics.
Also doesn’t Achilles wear armor crafted by the Greek God Hephaestus?
forgot about that but it still is a duel were nobody can hurt each other
“due to his status as an Elf is inherently weaker then humans as well as lighter.”
drizzt has shown strength better that a regular human
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-2 to strenth dosnt mean he cant be stronger than a human it just mean the average drow has a 9 strenth while a human has 11
for example to say ryld(war of the spider queen saga) is weaker than a human is silly
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and as i said befor archiles isnt stong enough to make a difference uless you show better feats than wulfgar
“Also doesn’t Achilles wear armor crafted by the Greek God Hephaestus?”
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Irrelevant. We have no durability feats for it, and it obviously doesn’t protect his vital area (his heel), so it means nothing in this fight.
“and as i said befor archiles isnt stong enough to make a difference uless you show better feats than wulfgar”
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Even that wouldn’t be enough. He’s fought stronger than Wulfgar. Errtu, Obould, etc.
“and as i said befor archiles isnt stong enough to make a difference uless you show better feats than wulfgar”
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He defeated a drunken shadow of his former self. Wulfgar was not fighting in optimum condition. Besides that in a true grapple Drizzt would get destroyed each time and he knows that.
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“Even that wouldn’t be enough. He’s fought stronger than Wulfgar. Errtu, Obould, etc.”
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Same as above for Wulfgar, Errtu was was stabbed through blade that was specifically designed to destroy creatures just like him, and Drizzt tried to block a blow from Obould and it nearly broke his arm and that was not even a solid connection.
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“-2 to strenth dosnt mean he cant be stronger than a human it just mean the average drow has a 9 strenth while a human has 11″
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Drizzt is inherently weaker because he is inherently smaller hence why he never grapples with humans. Drizzt is only 5’4, 130lbs soaking wet since Drow males are inherently smaller and weaker then females who can grow to be up to 6ft tall and 170lbs and the larger end of the spectrum. If Achilles was to grab him its a done deal. Him being a Greek soldier means he knows Pankration and since Drizzt is not mentioned to know how to fight well with his bare hands that will go to Achilles who can use Pankration techniques that render the armor moot like the choke hold, achilles joint lock to snap the ankle, etc etc. What counter does Drizzt have against that other then your say so?
“He defeated a drunken shadow of his former self. ”
no he was enraged due to artemis entreri tricking him into beliveing drizzt was having an afair with his fiance
“Drizzt is not mentioned to know how to fight well with his bare hands that will go to Achilles ”
ill need to cheeck but im pretty sure h2h is taught at Melee Magarthe
“Invulnerable means invulnerable. When it comes to things like Mythology they mean what they say. Especially when its via supernatural means.”
So, if I were to shoot Achilles square in the face with the Death Star Superlaser (but conveniently miss his heel, somehow), you argue that he’d be just peachy? Everything has a limit, dude.
“So, if I were to shoot Achilles square in the face with the Death Star Superlaser (but conveniently miss his heel, somehow), you argue that he’d be just peachy? Everything has a limit, dude.”
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Now I have the hilarious image of Achilles being hit in the face with the superlaser, getting knocked hundreds of miles backward, landing on an island and standing up unharmed, but with a sunburn. lol
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On topic, yes, Achilles’ invulnerability has a limit.
“Invulnerable means invulnerable. When it comes to things like Mythology they mean what they say. Especially when its via supernatural means.”
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Lol. It’s sad that you actually believe that.
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NLF applies to everything you absolute moron. Mythology doesn’t get a free pass just because it’s “mythology”. Standards are applied to everything, whether you want to wank it or not.
seems to me like Achilles could just tackle drizzt and it would be over.
“seems to me like Achilles could just tackle drizzt and it would be over.”
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This is much, much, much, much easier said than done. Drizzt is ridiculously fast, even without the magical bracers he wears on his legs that increase his speed further. If he goes into ‘The Hunter’, a state of mind where his speed, strength, relfexes, and awareness all sharply increase, he’s even faster.
“NLF applies to everything you absolute moron. Mythology doesn’t get a free pass just because it’s “mythology”. Standards are applied to everything, whether you want to wank it or not.”
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It’s one thing to say that Achilles could do something like survive the DS Superlaser. It’s quite another to imply that if Drizzt is slightly stronger than the hardest thing to hit Achilles then Achilles will be killed. Anything capable on a “mortal” level isn’t able to beat Achilles.
“Anything capable on a “mortal” level isn’t able to beat Achilles.”
shiki rapestomps with his mystic eyes
Doesnt achilles invincibility count as magic of a sort? He was dipped into styx to become invincible, its not a natural quality. If it does, making this match only about fighting prowess, i think drizzt has an advantage in that achilles isnt used to fighting against people who use swords, let alone one who uses them as effectively as drizzt
and as for “The Hunter” its not that he cannot be injured, but that he cannot be HURT, while in this state drizzt does not feel pain, if he suffers a fatal wound he will die, “but the hunter felt no pain”, also, while in this state, drizzt reacts faster than he perceives, barely conscious of his own movements, acting on pure primal instinct, achilles will get a few hits in, but ultimately he will go down
And achilles is probably slightly stronger than drizzt, but not enough for it to make much of a difference, drizzt near effortlessly defeats wulfgar who kills giants with his bare hands, and drizzt held his own against obould who was invincible, stronger than wulfgar, and nearly as fast as drizzt
“NLF applies to everything you absolute moron. Mythology doesn’t get a free pass just because it’s “mythology”. Standards are applied to everything, whether you want to wank it or not.”
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Not how this work you stupid fuck. Achilles invulnerability is absolute until something comes along that can overpower the deity or energy source which provide said power. Same way we treat Kharn and his immunity to magical attacks. Now can Drizzt overpower Achilles’ invulnerability with the weapons in his possession?
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“And achilles is probably slightly stronger than drizzt, but not enough for it to make much of a difference, drizzt near effortlessly defeats wulfgar who kills giants with his bare hands, and drizzt held his own against obould who was invincible, stronger than wulfgar, and nearly as fast as drizzt”
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It does make a difference. To say that oh he defeated Wulfgar with no example of Wulfgars unarmed combat skills makes no sense and can be chalked up to Wulfgar’s incompetence or PIS . All Greek soldiers were Pankrationists. Think MMA with absolutely no rules. As an Olympian even people have died in matches regularly Achilles is considered to be the greatest ‘human’ warrior in Greek Mythology thus we can assume he’s pretty damn good at it. Thus until we see examples of Drizzt’s unarmed skill he gets trashed by Achilles in unarmed combat since the only unarmed combat specialists in D&D that I know of is the Monk Class which Drizzt is not.
” only unarmed combat specialists in D&D that I know of is the Monk Class which Drizzt is not.”
2E fighters had unarmed options
not sure about 3E and 3.5 or 4E
“2E fighters”
wait iirc that should be warrior classes
“Not how this work you stupid fuck.”
Yes it is. As has been said, mythology does not get a free pass just by virtue of being mythology. We take the most impressive durability feats of Achilles’, and then compare to see if Drizz’t has anything that can match it. If so, then Drizz’t can hurt him. If not, then as far as Drizz’t is concerned Achilles is indeed invulnerable.
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“Achilles invulnerability is absolute until something comes along that can overpower the deity or energy source which provide said power.”
That’s not how it works at all. Otherwise people trying to get through Cloud Strife’s defensive magic would have to overcome the combined will and magic potential of every single living and dead being on the planet, and even within D&D someone trying to get through a Cleric or Paladin’s defensive magic would have to overpower their patron god (which is hilariously and blatantly untrue). If you claim that your opinion is how it actually works in mythology, you’ll need to provide proof.
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“Same way we treat Kharn and his immunity to magical attacks.”
Kharn is treated that way because he actually has a god explicitly looking out for him, and so anything trying to get through has to get past Khorne. Achilles was just dipped in a river. There’s nothing doing the same for him.
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“Thus until we see examples of Drizzt’s unarmed skill he gets trashed by Achilles in unarmed combat”
Fortunately for Drizz’t, this isn’t unarmed combat.
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“since the only unarmed combat specialists in D&D that I know of is the Monk Class which Drizzt is not.”
Actually, the Monk is sort of a piece of crap. It is one of the worst classes in the game. Even basic Fighters (also not exactly the best class) or Barbarians (only slightly better) are better hand-to-hand combatants if they pick up a few feats.
“Actually, the Monk is sort of a piece of crap”
ive seen some pretty good monks
especialy if they go into the kensai prc
what edition are monks shit in again, because in 3E they were one of the better classes. I don’t know about 4E of course, they could be utter crap in that.
“what edition are monks shit in again, because in 3E they were one of the better classes.”
They’re really, really not. Martial class without full BAB progression, plus low HP and mediocre AC (with the added fun of being unable to use armour or shields and still use their abilities), lots of skill points but few class skills, their skills have no synergy (movement speed increase with lots of abilities that require you to stand still to use, for example), you can’t enchant unarmed strikes like you can weapons (and they have no spells to compensate), they suffer from MAD, and some of their better abilities other classes get better versions of earlier (especially spellcasters).
They’re actually ’5th tier’ (with 6th tier being the Truenamer (which is actually mechanically unplayable) and the NPC classes specifically made to suck) if you go by that sort of thing.
…
/rant.
Sorry about that. The optimizer in me got control of my keyboard for a short time.
except many of theur skills do get synergy bonuses, their HP is actually decent, they offsett he inability to not wear armor with being able to get both wisdom and dex to AC as well as a class based bonus to AC, and the best saving throws in the game, as for enchanting unarmed strikes they have Ki strike, a magic fang spell also helps, as do magical hand wraps.
Now as for their abilities where they have to stand still, looking at the 3.5 handbook right now and I don’t see anything in it at all about them needing to stand still to activate their abilities
“Yes it is. As has been said, mythology does not get a free pass just by virtue of being mythology. We take the most impressive durability feats of Achilles’, and then compare to see if Drizz’t has anything that can match it. If so, then Drizz’t can hurt him. If not, then as far as Drizz’t is concerned Achilles is indeed invulnerable.”
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The problem with that is the Illiad is vague. He was never actually stated to be hit and the only time he was was to the ankle with a poisoned arrow guided by Apollo. Thus all we have to go by is what the River Styx does and what it does is make anyone dipped into it invincible.
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“That’s not how it works at all. Otherwise people trying to get through Cloud Strife’s defensive magic would have to overcome the combined will and magic potential of every single living and dead being on the planet, and even within D&D someone trying to get through a Cleric or Paladin’s defensive magic would have to overpower their patron god (which is hilariously and blatantly untrue). If you claim that your opinion is how it actually works in mythology, you’ll need to provide proof.”
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That’s not how materia works so bad example.
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Besides that we do know that Achilles was the son of a minor god making him a demi-god.
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“Fortunately for Drizz’t, this isn’t unarmed combat.”
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Since no one has explicitly proven that Drizzt’s sword can get through Achilles’ body since neither Twinkle nor Icingdeath can do any extreme damage except in the case of Icingdeath but against specifically fire demons and fire characters in general this match can take a long time since Drizzt is likely faster then Achilles. I mention this because eventually this match might get taken to the ground since another piler mentioned that Drizzt wears armor that Achilles weapons can’t get through though he neglects the face and throat. Thus Achilles’ weapons will eventually break but he can still snatch Drizzt by that long ass hair of his and beat him to death.
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“Actually, the Monk is sort of a piece of crap. It is one of the worst classes in the game. Even basic Fighters (also not exactly the best class) or Barbarians (only slightly better) are better hand-to-hand combatants if they pick up a few feats.”
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Not what I meant. Only the Monk class is explicitly trained in martial arts. Neither the warrior class nor the barbarian class is explicitly mentioned to be trained in martial arts. Hence why I said Drizzt loses in this regard.
if you w3ant to enchant unarmed strikes go into the kensai class if your good
if your evil closest thing you can get iirc if the deisciple of mephistiopholes second level adds 1d6 fire damage to unarmed strikes at will
at fourth level unarmed monk attacks are magical anyway, at ten they count as lawful, and at 16 they count as adamantine in regards to bypassing DR, and hardness
hey d&d question is it possible to duleweild a short spear and a long spear?
i want to base a charachter after Diarmuid Ua Duibhne
maybe, never had that brought up before, I suppose if you had monkey grip it could work…
I never used a spear so I have to look into size comparisons for both of course, but I would honestly say it wouldn’t be a effective way to fight in game, but for RP reasons it could be interesting
its more a style over substance thing
sure it wouldnt be effective but being uber in combat isnt my focuse i prefere the role play aspect
“this match can take a long time since Drizzt is likely faster then Achilles”
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He IS faster than Achilles. By a lot. I’ve read the Illiad. I don’t remember his being much faster than a regular human. Drizzt, on the other hand, is fast even by elf standards, without his bracers or the Hunter, let alone with them.
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“Achilles’ weapons will eventually break”
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His sword will be a mangled piece of garbage minutes into the fight. Drizzt has magical steel (or mithral) blades. He might as well be fighting with a foam sword. Drizzt can hit fast enough with his swords that rather than repeated clanging, all onlookers hear is one long tone. I’ll find quotes for that later. Anyway, Achilles’ sword is toast minutes in. In the probably hours long fight that follows, Drizzt will eventually hit his heel. He’s too fast for Achilles to catch. He’s just going to be wailing away on Achilles for a couple hours until he accidentally hits his heel or just starts hitting everywhere on Achilles’ body looking for a weak spot.
“except many of theur skills do get synergy bonuses”
Sorry, not skills as in the skill point sense, I meant class abilities. They don’t particularly gel very well.
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“their HP is actually decent”
It’s a d8, and unlike the other martial classes Constitution isn’t one of their important attributes. Adds to the MAD.
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“they offsett he inability to not wear armor with being able to get both wisdom and dex to AC as well as a class based bonus to AC, ”
Neither of which is as good as it sounds. The Wis thing just adds to the MAD (and isn’t a veyr big bonus anyways; probably in the +3 or +4 area), and the class-based bonus is also crap (+4 at 18th level). This is a time when Fighters are toting around +5 Full Plates (which comes out to +13, maybe +14 if they have decent Dex), and that’s not including a shield or any other sort of armour enchants (which Monks also can’t use).
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“and the best saving throws in the game”
I’ll grant you that one, but the disparity isn’t that big, especially at high levels.
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“as for enchanting unarmed strikes they have Ki strike”
Which only allows penetration of damage reduction. It offers no actual combat bonuses.
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“a magic fang spell also helps”
That’s not a Monk though. Spellcasters can equally (if not better actually, due to things like Flaming Weapons) buff the other martial classes.
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“as do magical hand wraps.”
Which is Rule 0, or a supplement I don’t have. If it’s option A, it’s a houserule and inapplicable to the actual game. If it’s option B, allow me to direct you to the Tome of Battle.
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“Now as for their abilities where they have to stand still, looking at the 3.5 handbook right now and I don’t see anything in it at all about them needing to stand still to activate their abilities”
The big one is Flurry of Blows, one of their key abilities, which requires a Full Attack action. Flurry of Blows itself kind of sucks, actually, due to all the limitations and penalties it applies.
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But this is not the place to discuss optimization. This is a place for debate!
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“The problem with that is the Illiad is vague. He was never actually stated to be hit and the only time he was was to the ankle with a poisoned arrow guided by Apollo. Thus all we have to go by is what the River Styx does and what it does is make anyone dipped into it invincible.”
But vagueness doesn’t mean it’s limitless simply due to a lack of evidence. A good compromise (in my mind) would be to say Achilles is impervious to the sort of harm a regular, human soldier could dish out, but anything above that is fair game.
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“That’s not how materia works so bad example.”
It’s actually exactly how materia works. You claimed that it would have to overcome whatever being or power source is behind it, and materia are powered by the Lifestream. That means every living and dead thing on the planet.
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“Besides that we do know that Achilles was the son of a minor god making him a demi-god.”
And? Odysseus was a demigod but other than ‘cleverness’ there wasn’t anything particularly supernatural about him. And it doesn’t mean his mom is constantly protecting him in the manner that Khorne does to Kharn. And if you think she does, you’ll need to provide proof.
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“Since no one has explicitly proven that Drizzt’s sword can get through Achilles’ body ”
I wasn’t making any claims for or against Drizz’t, as I don’t actually know a hell of a lot about him. I was just saying that discussing his unarmed ability is kind of pointless.
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“Not what I meant. Only the Monk class is explicitly trained in martial arts. Neither the warrior class nor the barbarian class is explicitly mentioned to be trained in martial arts. Hence why I said Drizzt loses in this regard.”
Not true, especially of Tome of Battle is involved. Hell, if we’re including Tome of Battle, an Unarmed Variant Swordsage is what a Monk wants to be when he grows up.
“He IS faster than Achilles. By a lot. I’ve read the Illiad. I don’t remember his being much faster than a regular human. Drizzt, on the other hand, is fast even by elf standards, without his bracers or the Hunter, let alone with them.”
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Foot speed yes. Sword speed not really.
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“Anyway, Achilles’ sword is toast minutes in. In the probably hours long fight that follows, Drizzt will eventually hit his heel.”
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1. Prove he will go for his heel beyond your say so.
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2. The strike to the heel is not what killed him. It was the poison of the Hydra that did him in. I don’t know why people have it in their head that if you stab Achilles in his heel he’ll just fall over and die.
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“Drizzt will eventually hit his heel. He’s too fast for Achilles to catch.”
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Prove this with quotes since I seem to remember large and slow characters hitting Drizzt including
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Heefstag
Vergbeegs
The Frost Giant leader of the Vergbeeg
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I know you guys like the character but can we get some type of number on his foot speed since that will determine if he can stay out of range.
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“It’s actually exactly how materia works. You claimed that it would have to overcome whatever being or power source is behind it, and materia are powered by the Lifestream. That means every living and dead thing on the planet.”
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Yes and no. According to the wiki it is crystalized Mako energy that can tap into the Lifestream but cannot use it to its full capabilities nor is it limitless since it is directly effected by the amount of mana a character has in question. Such restraints are not apparent on Achilles’ power.
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“I wasn’t making any claims for or against Drizz’t, as I don’t actually know a hell of a lot about him. I was just saying that discussing his unarmed ability is kind of pointless.”
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Its not pointless though.
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“Not true, especially of Tome of Battle is involved. Hell, if we’re including Tome of Battle, an Unarmed Variant Swordsage is what a Monk wants to be when he grows up.”
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Now your talking about an acquired item which has nothing to do with argument at hand.
“Such restraints are not apparent on Achilles’ power.”
But he’s not using the entire power of the River Styx either. Unless you can prove he is, at least.
Hell, technically he’s not using any power from it at all, it’s just a byproduct of being dipped in it. Kind of like how being burnt doesn’t mean you have the power of fire.
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“Now your talking about an acquired item which has nothing to do with argument at hand.”
Tome of Battle isn’t an actual in-game item. It’s a D&D supplemental book with a lot of stuff to power up martial characters, in the same vein as the Complete series (i.e. Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, etc), or the Spell Compendium.
“Not how this work you stupid fuck. Achilles invulnerability is absolute until something comes along that can overpower the deity or energy source which provide said power. Same way we treat Kharn and his immunity to magical attacks. Now can Drizzt overpower Achilles’ invulnerability with the weapons in his possession?”
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Allmyfacepalms.jpg
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First of all, yes that is how the ruling on NLF works, if it’s stronger than what he has shown to tank then say goodbye.
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Second Achilles has no innate “godly” protection, he was dipped in the river styx, which makes him immortal. This is in no way similar to Kharn who actually has a Galaxy level god watching over his shoulder to negate magic.
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Go ahead and quote me saying that Drizzt can get through his invulnerability.
Okay, Achilles has his spear and shield and also has two back up short swords.
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He does have the invurablility of the Rver Styx.
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Drizzt does not know of his weakness.
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Also, does anyone have any quotes of swords bouncing off Achilles? Books or Wiki?
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Also thanks @admin for postng this
@redrum
I gave an example but i will be more speciffic, wulfgar came upon an encampment of giants with morik the rogue, this was while he had lost his warhammer, he used a battle axe to kill one, it broke and he beat the rest to death with the shaft, rocks, and snapped ones neck with his bare hands, dizzt bests wulfgar in combat near effortlessly on MANY occaisions
This fight is so Badass, Badass does not begin to describe it one little bit!
Since it manages to be even more Badass than Pyramid Head vs Sauron, how do we raise the Roof off this joint???
And wulfgar would DESTROY any greek (besides heracles) in pankration, he became the leader of the barbarians by crushing the former kings skull with his bear hands, he also killed errtu, a balor capable of leveling cities, with his bear hands
“I gave an example but i will be more speciffic, wulfgar came upon an encampment of giants with morik the rogue, this was while he had lost his warhammer, he used a battle axe to kill one, it broke and he beat the rest to death with the shaft, rocks, and snapped ones neck with his bare hands, dizzt bests wulfgar in combat near effortlessly on MANY occaisions”
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Drizzt only beat Wulfgar in unarmed combat once. With his Scimitars bests Wulfgar because he’s older, has more experience, and isn’t as hot headed as the Barbarian. However it could also be chalked up to PIS. Besides that Wulfgar broke a Vergbeeg’s neck. Vergbeegs are but maybe a foot taller then him and are the weakest of all giants. Weak enough that Dwarfs can stand toe to toe with them and block their blows.
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“And wulfgar would DESTROY any greek (besides heracles) in pankration, he became the leader of the barbarians by crushing the former kings skull with his bear hands, he also killed errtu, a balor capable of leveling cities, with his bear hands”
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This makes no sense because Wulfgar does not know Pankration nor does it exist in Forgotten Realms. Martial Arts are about more then strength. Its about skill, speed, balance, and precision. For example Wulfgar going up a superior fighter like say Donnie Yen would end with a dead Wulfgar because Donnie Yen is exceedingly faster and uses martial arts that target joints and pressure points on the human body as well as the eyes, throat and groin. Similar to a Pankrationist. While Wulfgar is trying to crush his skull a true Pankrationist would literally rip his nuts off or gauge his eyes out.
“, and isn’t as hot headed as the Barbarian”
wulfgar gets over this in the first book.
” Pankration nor does it exist in Forgotten Realms. ”
actualy it does
it was a 2E fighting style
“wulfgar gets over this in the first book.”
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Not really. In the book Orc King when he found his dead wife he charged headlong into a camp of orcs in a fit of rage and nearly died if it wasn’t for Drizzt saving his ass.
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“actualy it does
it was a 2E fighting style”
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Just looked it up and I saw nothing that suggests Pankration exists in Forgotten Realms. Would you mind posting where it says this and that Wulfgar is well versed in this.
“Not really. In the book Orc King when he found his dead wife he charged headlong into a camp of orcs in a fit of rage and nearly died if it wasn’t for Drizzt saving his ass.”
his wife died hes allwed to freak out
drizzt did the same when his wife died
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“Just looked it up and I saw nothing that suggests Pankration exists in Forgotten Realms. Would you mind posting where it says this ”
sorry no idea where to find it i only saw it in one of my dm’s books
i wasnt saying wulfgar knows it any ways
“his wife died hes allwed to freak out”
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He knew she was dead for months though(was it months or weeks)
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“drizzt did the same when his wife died”
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Awww Cattie-Brie died? That’s too bad.
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But none of this has anything to do with Drizzt though. Wulfgar is not a skilled unarmed combatant and that’s that. His skills in it consists of haymakers and taking face shots from slower opponents thus he is not a proper gauge of Drizzt’s skill.
““drizzt did the same when his wife died”
in the ghost king
regis also
everyone left but drizzt goes in gauntlgrym