Suggested by ZomB
No real restrictions on this, the battle takes place in the Golden Army’s chamber from Hellboy.
Obi-Wan Kenobi is the Jedi Master of the Star Wars Series. Blade, as far as I know, is from Marvel Comics. Obi-Wan has the force on his side and a Lightsaber that can cut through almost anything. But Blade is part vampire, with a lot of their strengths and few of their weaknesses. Will that be enough to overcome the various powers?
Will the force be strong with Kenobi? Or will Blade show the real dark side of the force?
“So wouldn’t the novelization count?
Yes/No?”
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The novelization isn’t from the EU. Film novelizations are G level canon. They always count.
The problem here is the films themselves are higher level canon than the novelizations. The films will always override them when there is a conflict between the two.
I see a pretty damn big conflict between Obi-wan from the novel (who apparently is stated to be moving so fast that he is a blur in battle) and Obi-wan from the film (who is NEVER shown moving that fast to win a fight, even when the mission and his very life could depend on it.)
Film overrides novel.
“I see a pretty damn big conflict between Obi-wan from the novel (who apparently is stated to be moving so fast that he is a blur in battle) and Obi-wan from the film (who is NEVER shown moving that fast to win a fight, even when the mission and his very life could depend on it.)”
-In episode 1, when Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan are trapped against the blast door by droidekas, they use force speed to get around them. They move quite fast. I don’t know exactly how fast, because I haven’t been able to find the clip on youtube. But that’s the only time we ever see it in the movies, maybe because it’s a draining technique. Anyway, I figure that’s the best way to measure Kenobi’s speed.
“In episode 1, when Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan are trapped against the blast door by droidekas, they use force speed to get around them. They move quite fast. I don’t know exactly how fast, because I haven’t been able to find the clip on youtube. But that’s the only time we ever see it in the movies, maybe because it’s a draining technique. Anyway, I figure that’s the best way to measure Kenobi’s speed.”
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True, but, like you said, he never used that ability again. And he only moved at that speed for a short distance in order to escape from combat. He didn’t use it for fighting.
Welp.
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Is this the curse of Italics again?
“I think that that’s canon place is that it is in-universe Republic propaganda”
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Really? That’s pretty cool.
My fault. My italics tend to break loose when I’m not careful with them.
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“True, but, like you said, he never used that ability again.”
-That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be able to.
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“And he only moved at that speed for a short distance in order to escape from combat. He didn’t use it for fighting.”
-I’ve always understood Force Speed to be an overall speed boost. He used it for a very short while, yes. But everything points to him being able to apply it to combat just as easily as running, notably the quote ZomBagels posted from the Revenge of the Sith novelization. It said “the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once.” As such speed obviously isn’t in his normal capability, I’m sure the book is describing Force Speed.
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Then again, Blade is able to block bullets with a swinging chain. Obi-Wan hasn’t been shown to have that kind of speed, since bullets are quite a bit faster than Star Wars blasters(and other reasons). Thus far in the match, Blade is able to draw and fire on Kenobi with an automatic firearm. Unless something new is brought up, Blade wins.
No matter how much you try and downplay Blaster speed, you’re still getting something there that will be massively faster than Blade.
“No matter how much you try and downplay Blaster speed, you’re still getting something there that will be massively faster than Blade.”
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You sir obviously don’t know Locutus. He’ll likely say Obi-Wan is clearly slower than a sloth or something…
So why is this match still going when Blade has to fight a guy who sees his every move and can cut through pretty much anything?
And the heck is with all the italics o,O
“No matter how much you try and downplay Blaster speed, you’re still getting something there that will be massively faster than Blade.”
-No one is downplaying blaster speed. However, it is slower than bullets’ we all know this. Blade can react to bullets and fight with a girl who’s apparently as fast as them. It’s in the scans posted by Atomic Lowk. You are thus claiming that Obi-Wan is faster than the speed of a bullet, which we have no reason to believe.
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Add to that the fact that the novel quote didn’t tell us how many blaster bolts were flying at(or around) Obi-Wan, the feat becomes much less quantifiable, which is why I stated that his Force Speed from episode 1 was the best thing to go by. It’s actually concrete, which is something we need for FactPile.
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“So why is this match still going when Blade has to fight a guy who sees his every move and can cut through pretty much anything?”
-It shouldn’t be. Blade can kill Obi-Wan faster than he can react as of now.
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Again, for this outcome to change, we need new feats brought up.
Did you even read that post?
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Blade is a bullet timer correct?
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How fast is his best feat?
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Because Obi-Wan was blocking Tens of Thousands of Blaster Bolts focused in on him at once.
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Even if you think Blaster Bolts are slower than Bullets, which is wrong by the way, The feat is still above Blade.
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“Because Obi-Wan was blocking Tens of Thousands of Blaster Bolts focused in on him at once.”
-This is the problem, Darthgrim. We don’t know how many blaster bolts were flying at him, and how many were flying around him. We all know that droids have far from perfect aim. It would also take a speed quite a bit less than that of a blaster bolt, depending on where the droid is in relation to Obi-Wan, to move the latter out of the path of said bolt. And we know Obi-Wan was on the move.
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Thus, the amount of blaster bolts he actually had to deflect is far from a concrete number, which again, is something we need for FactPile.
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“Even if you think Blaster Bolts are slower than Bullets, which is wrong by the way, The feat is still above Blade.”
-Multiple others have said that blaster bolts are slower than bullets, and I have seen no evidence to the contrary. In the highest canon source, the movies, we can clearly see the lasers to be significantly slower than bullets.
~
So once again, I will say that in order for Blade’s title of “winner” to be taken from him, we need more feats posted. If you have proof of a blaster’s projectile speed, I would love to see it.
No, your evidence for the speed of Blaster bolts is that we can see them moving.
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We can only see them because they are like 30cm long and glow bright red.
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They still travel hundreds of meters in seconds and stuff like that, so there’s no reason to believe they are any slower than bullets.
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Even if Obi-Wan only needed to be 10m/s to dodge the projectiles and even if only 1/10 Droids were on target, he is still 10000m/s
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However, the speed required is probably more along the lines of 100m/s.
“No, your evidence for the speed of Blaster bolts is that we can see them moving.
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We can only see them because they are like 30cm long and glow bright red.”
-And if a blaster bolt went as fast as a bullet or faster, it would appear longer due to the mechanics of the human eye. We can see them moving, hence we know they are not as fast as bullets, and certainly not the bullets propelled from the powerful firearms that Blade possesses.
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“They still travel hundreds of meters in seconds and stuff like that, so there’s no reason to believe they are any slower than bullets.”
-What we have no reason to believe is that blaster bolts travel anywhere near that fast. No evidence has been posted on this thread, unless I am falling prey to some gross oversight. I am going to quote myself: “If you have proof of a blaster’s projectile speed, I would love to see it.”
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Now, here’s what I have. One, two sites showing the researched speed of blaster bolts. That’s not very fast.
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“Even if Obi-Wan only needed to be 10m/s to dodge the projectiles and even if only 1/10 Droids were on target, he is still 10000m/s”
-I think you goofed up with your logic and math on that one. How does Obi-Wan have a speed of ten thousand meters per second? My main point was we don’t know how many droids were on target anyway.
~
I suggest returning to post #43 by ReDruM and reading from there.
“No one is downplaying blaster speed. However, it is slower than bullets’ we all know this. Blade can react to bullets and fight with a girl who’s apparently as fast as them. It’s in the scans posted by Atomic Lowk. You are thus claiming that Obi-Wan is faster than the speed of a bullet, which we have no reason to believe.”
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Spitfire outruns bullets that has left the barrel meaning she has to be at least 1 and 3/4-double the speed of the bullet fired. Flames come off of her when she runs.
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“Blade is a bullet timer correct?”
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Blade is beyond a bullet timer. I have already posted a scan where he reacts to laser beams.
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“No, your evidence for the speed of Blaster bolts is that we can see them moving.
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We can only see them because they are like 30cm long and glow bright red.”
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No because we can see where it begins and where it ends in flight.
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“They still travel hundreds of meters in seconds and stuff like that, so there’s no reason to believe they are any slower than bullets.”
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Where’s the quote that says this?
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“Even if Obi-Wan only needed to be 10m/s to dodge the projectiles and even if only 1/10 Droids were on target, he is still 10000m/s”
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Did this guy say Obi-Wan moves 10,000m/s? Get the fuck out of here. If he was that fast he could speed blitz armies of Storm Troopers and Droids without them even knowing he was there. But he doesn’t so that throws that idea right out of the window.
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Any Blade for the FP Award cause he spanks Obi-Wan at this point. Either he cuts him into pieces, shoots him to pieces, blows him to pieces, or beats him into pieces.
“I have already posted a scan where he reacts to laser beams.”
-The scan I looked at showed laser beams hitting next to Blade, but it doesn’t look like he dodged them. I very much doubt he can move at luminal speed. Still, he’s faster than Obi-Wan.
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“Did this guy say Obi-Wan moves 10,000m/s?”
-I’m hoping it was a mistake.
~
I’m also hoping the argument is over, unless, as I said three time before, new frickin’ feats are brought forward for Kenobi.
Obi will Rule the day. An energy sword and the force will easily stomp a dude with facepaint and a titanium blade. Plus Blade isnt as good as a fighter
Havoc. Please read the argument.
well obviously obi-wan is gonna win unless blades blade is mad out of sythuim
“Youfirinmebro”. Please read the argument. And what the heck is sythuim?
Whats stopping the jedi from force-gripping blades guns? it would be easier then throwing blade around so less of a strain and even if blade keeps hold of them it’ll throw him off for a second giving obi-wan the time he needs to strike. Unless blade is a quicker draw then a jedi he’ll have no defense set up to block obi’s lightsaber except for dodging. By then his precog will guide his saber to blade no matter what daywalker does. Hell he could just pull a magneto and turn the gun on blade.
“Whats stopping the jedi from force-gripping blades guns?”
-You can’t force-grip when you’re dead.
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“Unless blade is a quicker draw then a jedi”
-He is.
Did someone Italicize the whole dang page???
In any case, Major ZomB, I apologize for both my failures to warn the general public to let you respond before the #50 post count came to an end and doubly so for my part in the rapid ending of said countdown rather than the P.Ming of you began, instead.
“You can’t force-grip when you’re dead”
You cant pull a trigger when the guns missing from your hand.
what i mean by being a quicker draw is switching from firearm to sword or other firearm in time to attack since blocking with the sword is useless and guns will be reduced to slag by the time blade takes aim.
i’ll admit blade has a good chance of winning if there at a distance but at sword dueling distance obi-wan has a distinct advantage by way of the most lethal close combat weapon in sci-fi history: the Lightsaber. also, since when are guns blade’s primary go-to weapon?. seeing another swordsman, blade would draw his sword first and meet obi-wan head-on unknowing the danger to his weapons the lightsaber presents.
In blade trinity he is perfectly capable to try to shoot dracula but what does he do? he takes off his coat and duels him like a boss.That won’t work here though.
“In blade trinity he is perfectly capable to try to shoot dracula but what does he do? he takes off his coat and duels him like a boss.That won’t work here though.”
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Iirc this 616-verse Blade. Movie verse character tend to differ fr the comics they are based on. Regular Blade doesn’t seem to waste time when he’s going to kill something.
What the hell happened tot he font?
” ”
*
the most lethal close combat weapon in sci-fi history: the Lightsaber. ”"
Proof you don’t know starcraft
@Primus
Nor are they aware of the series-whose-name-I-won’t-be-seen-uttering-its-name-aloud, for that matter, which has a sword that’s pretty much like a fusion between the LoZ Master Sword and a Star Wars Lightsaber ON CRACK!!!(with an IV of Red Bull!)
“the most lethal close combat weapon in sci-fi history: the Lightsaber.”
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C’tan Phase weapons?
Lighthawk Wings?
Yes, I went there!
“Did someone Italicize the whole dang page???”
-That was me.
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“You cant pull a trigger when the guns missing from your hand.”
-That’s not a issue, since Blade is faster than Obi-Wan.
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“at sword dueling distance obi-wan has a distinct advantage by way of the most lethal close combat weapon in sci-fi history: the Lightsaber.”
-There are grander weapons, as the others have reiterated. Nevertheless, lightsabers can’t cut through adamantium, which hear Blade’s sword is made of.
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“seeing another swordsman, blade would draw his sword first and meet obi-wan head-on”
-Blade would not see Obi-Wan as a swordsman because he is not familiar with lightsabers, which are typically turned off and kept on the belt.
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I’m quoting myself: “So once again, I will say that in order for Blade’s title of “winner” to be taken from him, we need more feats posted.”
“I’m hoping it was a mistake.”
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It’s cute to just dismiss things when they’re not convenient for you isn’t it?
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Kenobi’s shield feat puts him far beyond blade, Blade does not have the movement speed to reach Obi-Wan before all of his weapons are taken off of him with the force.
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Do people not pay attention to what these things are posted in? It was posted in Swordfighters for a damn reason. Why the fuhk would I suggest a match between two guys with swords if I just wanted one to shoot at the other?
“Blade would not see Obi-Wan as a swordsman because he is not familiar with lightsabers, which are typically turned off and kept on the belt.”
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Swordfighters, SERIOUSLY IT’S RIGHT FUCKING THERE AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE!
“It’s cute to just dismiss things when they’re not convenient for you isn’t it?”
-No, I do not think it’s cute. It really annoys me, in fact. One reason I don’t do it.
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“Kenobi’s shield feat puts him far beyond blade,”
Would you mind telling me where this “shield” feat is? I wasn’t lucky enough to stumble across it, and it wasn’t mentioned to me.
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I was not aware this was a swordfighting match. You can hardly blame me when firearms are being mentioned on the part of several others; I took it in stride, as no one else dismissed the use of them, not to mention Force Grip.
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“Blade does not have the movement speed to reach Obi-Wan before all of his weapons are taken off of him with the force.”
-You are allowing Obi-Wan to use telekinesis in a swordfighting match?
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There’s no need to get all cranky, at any rate.
ZomB posted it earlier but I’ll post it here for re-emphasis:
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“Two, three, and four. Oh, thought Obi-Wan with detached approval. That worked out rather well. Only ten thousand to go. Give or take. An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once. Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there…
Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams, blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield that splattered blaster bolts in all directions, his presence alone became a weapon: as he spun and whirled through the control center’s superstructure, the blasts of particle cannons from power droids destroyed equipment and shattered girders and unleashed a torrent of red-hot debris that crashed to the deck, crushing droids on all sides. By the time he flipped down through the air to land cat-footed on the deck once more, nearly half the droids between him and Grievous had been destroyed by their own not-so-friendly fire. He cut his way into the mob of remaining troops as smoothly as if it were no more than a canebrake near some sunlit beach; his steady pace left behind a trail of smoking slices of droid.”
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Obi-Wan moves his lightsaber so fast that it appears to create a blue bubble shield around him, deflecting blaster bolts coming at him from all directions
@stealth
Ain’t that considered outlier? Or is it actually consistent.
“You are allowing Obi-Wan to use telekinesis in a swordfighting match?”
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I can’t actually enforce anything past comment 50. But if Blade has guns in a swordfight, I don’t see why Obi-Wan wouldn’t have TK. That said, I don’t see why either of them should have either. The force would make this match no fun. Sure you have to give Obi-Wan his pre-cog and enhanced reactions. No TK or other non-passive force powers though. Otherwise, it may as well be Jean Grey vs Blade.
“Sure you have to give Obi-Wan his pre-cog and enhanced reactions. No TK or other non-passive force powers though. ”
-I agree, I was simply unaware of the swordfighting status of this match.
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“Obi-Wan moves his lightsaber so fast that it appears to create a blue bubble shield around him, deflecting blaster bolts coming at him from all directions”
-Yes, I saw this quote after all. And yet, “blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield” sounds like a metaphor. The feat in whole isn’t too useful, unless I’m forgetting something. The argument is above.
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Did Obi-Wan deflect all the bolts, or ten of them? We know he was on the move, we know the droids don’t have perfect aim, and we know Obi-Wan was guided by the force. His speed might not have actually been too great. It isn’t a concrete feat. We can’t quantify it without assuming a great deal, of which multiple things could easily be the truth.
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And the quote certainly does not put Obi-Wan at mach five-thousand. But again, the argument is above(post 111), so please correct any flaws within it.
“Yes, I saw this quote after all”
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Well, you did ask for this “shield” feat and I gave it
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“And yet, “blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield” sounds like a metaphor.”
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Yeah, now that I think about it, that is a figure of speech
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“Did Obi-Wan deflect all the bolts, or ten of them?”
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The quote also said
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“Two, three, and four. Oh, thought Obi-Wan with detached approval. That worked out rather well. Only ten thousand to go”
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Which could imply that he deflected the blaster bolts several at a time or something
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“And the quote certainly does not put Obi-Wan at mach five-thousand”
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lol @ Obi-Wan being Mach 5000
“Obi-Wan moves his lightsaber so fast that it appears to create a blue bubble shield around him, deflecting blaster bolts coming at him from all directions”
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I don’t see anything in the quote that says Kenobi is swinging so fast that it actually looks like a blue bubble is around him as he is moving.
“Well, you did ask for this “shield” feat and I gave it”
-And thank you. I didn’t know that quote was referred to as “the shield feat.”
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“Which could imply that he deflected the blaster bolts several at a time or something”
-Exactly, but there’s also the part where “the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire”, so not all the bolts even needed to be deflected.
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Anyway, I’d say that Obi-Wan is the better swordfighter, but Blade is an expert as well and is faster. Whereas Obi-Wan takes a defensive approach and waits for his opponents to expend their energy, that won’t work on Blade due to his superhuman stamina and healing factor.
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The snag is that Kenobi has a lightsaber. It’s been said that Blade’s katana is made of adamantium, but I can only find info on it being titanium. If his sword gets sliced through, do you think Blade could at least manage to grab Obi-Wan’s lightsaber arm with his greater speed, maybe throwing his half-sword beforehand as an additional threat?
“Blade due to his superhuman stamina and healing factor.”
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I don’t see how a healing factor is going to work well here considering when a lightsaber chops something off, the wound is entirely cauterized, I believe. Also, depending on where Kenobi hits, it’ll out of incapacitate him long enough to finish him or outright kill him.
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Can Blade regenerate lost limbs?
“sounds like a metaphor.”
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How does that sound like a metaphor? It’s a pretty clean cut statement implying he was swinging his lightsaber so fast it resembled not a blade in movement but rather a shield around him.
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Not actual movement speed, but it would put his arm movement speed at well over Mach 100, if you take the ten thousand droids being able to fire upon him a once.
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That said there is another quote of Obi-Wan defending against eighteen strikes per second from Grevious in the Revenge of the Sith novel as well. Does Blade even have any feats that put him at that level? Also you have to take into account these were coming from four separate arms, so he had to defend a wider range than he would with a two armed opponent. I certainly haven’t seen Blade match that.
“I don’t see how a healing factor is going to work well here considering when a lightsaber chops something off, the wound is entirely cauterized, I believe.”
-The wounds are cauterized, yes. I don’t know if he can regrow limbs, but I was thinking more along the lines that no minor injuries would add up. I don’t think he’d have any of his limbs lopped off, seeing as he’s the fastest combatant.
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“How does that sound like a metaphor? It’s a pretty clean cut statement implying he was swinging his lightsaber so fast it resembled not a blade in movement but rather a shield around him.”
-It said the lightsaber blade flickered so fast it BECAME a deflector shield. It obviously didn’t literally become one. It was a metaphor. He had already been using it as a shield by blocking blaster bolts, but nothing was said about how the blade looked or appeared.
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“it would put his arm movement speed at well over Mach 100, if you take the ten thousand droids being able to fire upon him a once.”
-We don’t know how many he had to deflect in what amount of time.
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“Does Blade even have any feats that put him at that level?”
-He apparently can fight on equal terms with a woman capable of outrunning bullets, and can swing a chain fast enough to block bullets. I’d say that’s faster than 18 meters per second, if we’re generous to Obi-Wan.
“eighteen strikes per second from Grevious”
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“four separate arms”
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Just thought I’d throw this out there, but an average human can strike 6 times in one second with both arms (3 strikes per second with each arm)
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Grievous started off with 12 strikes per second (or 3 strikes with each arm), then 16 per second (4 strikes with each arm), he finally reached 20 (or 5 strikes per second with each arm) strikes per second
“We don’t know how many he had to deflect in what amount of time.”
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Well considering this takes place right before he confronts Grevious on Utapau, it was in Hangar 10. We do know from that, he was deflecting simultaneous blaster fire from at least 100 droids surrounding him on all sides. Blade cannot touch that with a stick… Though the quote says ten thousand, it would not be possible for all of them to be shooting at him at once within that space.
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I’m really digging all of these scans and shit for Blade, the evidence… It’s so overwhelming… srsly guys, I’ve read most of his comics, trying to pull a fast one on me isn’t gonna work. None of the scans shown so far give any real evidence of his speed coming close to Obi-Wan’s.
“Just thought I’d throw this out there, but an average human can strike 6 times in one second with both arms (3 strikes per second with each arm)”
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I consider myself a pretty average guy, I just used my Daywalker sword(oh the irony) and a machete to test that, I can almost flail six times in a second, but delivering actual strikes on an enemy is way beyond me.
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“He apparently can fight on equal terms with a woman capable of outrunning bullets,”
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Solomon Grundy once beat up Superman… I guess he must be FTL… ‘Hurr Durr powerscaling’ hasn’t been accepted on this site for quite awhile.
“None of the scans shown so far give any real evidence of his speed coming close to Obi-Wan’s.”
-What, they don’t show him knocking away bullets by swinging a chain? They don’t show him handfighting Spitfire on equal ground, and the latter’s speed? Granted, Spitfire’s feat doesn’t display movement speed.
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“We do know from that, he was deflecting simultaneous blaster fire from at least 100 droids surrounding him on all sides.”
Are you saying at least 100 were shooting at him at once? Because that’s fine with me. I had not considered that all 10,000 droids were not able to fire simultaneously; I don’t know the size of the enclosure.
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But we still don’t know how many blaster bolts Obi-Wan actually did have to deflect. Sure, a certain number may have been firing at him, but we know those droids don’t have perfect aim. We can disregard that, though The problem is he was moving. We know “the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire”, “Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams”, “he spun and whirled through the control center’s superstructure,” “he flipped down through the air to land cat-footed on the deck once more, nearly half the droids between him and Grievous had been destroyed by their own not-so-friendly fire.”
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A great many of the blaster bolts missed badly. Try to quantify a solid speed feat from that. I still think it is impossible; there is not enough information.
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Blade is still far faster than Obi-Wan.
“Granted, Spitfire’s feat doesn’t display movement speed.”
-Should be “combat speed.”
“What, they don’t show him knocking away bullets by swinging a chain?”
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He clearly implies he was faster than that kid could shoot, he aligned the chain with the barrel of the gun before the kid could pull the trigger, not actively blocking the bullet. Besides, whats a bullet to hundreds of blaster bolts? You clearly have some major misconceptions about speed if you think blocking a bullet would be equivalent to blocking hundreds of blaster bolts.
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“They don’t show him handfighting Spitfire on equal ground, and the latter’s speed? Granted, Spitfire’s feat doesn’t display movement speed.”
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Yup, completely useless.
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“Are you saying at least 100 were shooting at him at once? Because that’s fine with me. I had not considered that all 10,000 droids were not able to fire simultaneously; I don’t know the size of the enclosure.”
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I’m saying out of the far more than 100 firing on him, only 100 would have been on target consistently at any given time.
“That said there is another quote of Obi-Wan defending against eighteen strikes per second from Grevious in the Revenge of the Sith novel as well.”
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Which directly contradicts the film. They do not move that fast at any point during their film duel.
“None of the scans shown so far give any real evidence of his speed coming close to Obi-Wan’s”
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There has yet to be evidence that proves he moves as super fast as you claim. All the quote says is he was jumping around while deflecting a lot of retarded CIS droid fire. We don’t know how many droids are really firing, how many shots he actually had to deflect or how fast he was deflecting them. I certainly don’t see anything in that quote that supports your ridiculous Mach 100 lightsaber swinging.
The 18-20 strike blocking quote from the novel contradicts the film and is cancelled out. The films themselves never show Kenobi striking or blocking that fast during any of his fights.
Overwhelming evidence my ass.
“he aligned the chain with the barrel of the gun before the kid could pull the trigger” -We see that the guy pulled out a gun and started shooting. Blade was knocking the bullets out of the air with a swinging chain. Of course the chain was swinging; it was not still. It was not hanging or kept taught and in the line of fire. We also see three different points where the bullets struck. Therefore, he had to be swinging it into the path of the bullets, which means he is a bullet-timer.
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“I’m saying out of the far more than 100 firing on him, only 100 would have been on target consistently at any given time.”
-From which facts did you derive that figure? Because from what I know, that number could possibly be from 10 to 2,000 or more.
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“Which directly contradicts the film. They do not move that fast at any point during their film duel.”
-That is true. The films are of a higher canon than the novels.
~
“There has yet to be evidence that proves he moves as super fast as you claim. All the quote says is he was jumping around while deflecting a lot of retarded CIS droid fire. We don’t know how many droids are really firing, how many shots he actually had to deflect or how fast he was deflecting them.”
-What I’ve been saying all along.
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Really, how many times have I said this? 5? Obi-Wan needs new feats. NOT for the existing ones to be argued further.
~
But then, as this is a sword duel, perhaps some possible scenarios should be discussed.
The thing people seem to be missing here is that Obi-Wan does not even have to be moving at super speed himself to do things like catch bullets or cut superspeed moving enemies in half, he just has to get the saber between him and the point the bullets or whatever will be at when the saber gets there in the case of incoming projectiles, and he just has to position the blade across the path of the superspeed character. That is where the prescience comes in; it is a little like spider-sense with automatic reflex link in a way. Other examples of it are things like Anikin flipping out of the aircar on corescant without looking and knowing without a doubt that another car would be there to land in, and Luke suddenly realizing that the long drop in the gas mine shaft in TESB that he could not see the bottom of would not result in death, and literally hundreds of other examples in the EU.
-
The swinging chain thing could just as easily be from observing the gunman tighten down on the trigger and knowing the gun well enough to have a very good idea of when it would start actually firing and time the swing of the chain just right to catch the stream as it comes toward him. It takes very fast reactions but stranger things have happened to ordinary people in desperate situations, such as a thrown object taking the slug that was on its way to the thrower, and even two people shooting at the same time and the bullets smash together between them and not reach either one.
-
It does not take outrunning a bullet to aim-dodge, and comics are generally bad sources for speed information since they have to do things like blur trails to show movement path in their static medium for feats that would not leave a trail in live action films.
“The thing people seem to be missing here is that Obi-Wan does not even have to be moving at super speed himself to do things like catch bullets or cut superspeed moving enemies in half, he just has to get the saber between him and the point the bullets or whatever will be at when the saber gets there in the case of incoming projectiles, and he just has to position the blade across the path of the superspeed character.”
-Yes, but that’s what Jedi do with blaster bolts in the first place. It still takes a certain amount of speed to do even that, and Jedi do not have the speed required to move their limbs, lightsaber, or anything else between themselves and a fired bullet. Precognition could work in this scenario, but I emphasize the word “could” because it’s far from a certainty, especially with multiple bullets flying around from a moving gun.
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None of that matters, however, because Blade doesn’t get guns. This is a swordfight, as I recently found out.
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“The swinging chain thing could just as easily be from observing the gunman tighten down on the trigger and knowing the gun well enough to have a very good idea of when it would start actually firing and time the swing of the chain just right to catch the stream as it comes toward him.”
-Yet that theory implies that Blade would have to sense the slight movement of the gun holder’s finger, see what the trajectory of the bullet will be based off the exact direction the gun is pointing, and swing his chain at the correct moment and swing speed to ensure that it comes into the path of the bullet. Three times in rapid succession while moving. By extension, this means that he must have perfect knowledge of the gun’s internal workings and exact muzzle velocity, as this differs between guns. Because he does not have this by default, he must therefore be a bullet timer. The initially-obvious interpretation that he is knocking the bullets out of the air with a spinning chain is correct.
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But even aim-blocking in the space of time it takes for someone to squeeze a trigger and a bullet to fire would make one faster than what Obi-Wan is shown to be.
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Still, Blade’s sword is made of titanium, meaning it would get sliced up by a lightsaber. With his vastly superior speed, Blade could hurl his Katana into Obi-Wans chest, and if that doesn’t prove fatal, could jump in to immobilize Kenobi’s lightsaber arm and finish the job. Kenobi can’t block a flying sword with a lightsaber, and I doubt his ability to dodge, even with precognition, when it is thrown by a bullet-timer.
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I do believe Blade wins. I was all for Obi-Wan, but then the facts came forward.
~
If I missed anything though, feel free to point it out.
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“The swinging chain thing could just as easily be from observing the gunman tighten down on the trigger and knowing the gun well enough to have a very good idea of when it would start actually firing and time the swing of the chain just right to catch the stream as it comes toward him.”
-Yet that theory implies that Blade would have to sense the slight movement of the gun holder’s finger, see what the trajectory of the bullet will be based off the exact direction the gun is pointing, and swing his chain at the correct moment and swing speed to ensure that it comes into the path of the bullet. Three times in rapid succession while moving. By extension, this means that he must have perfect knowledge of the gun’s internal workings and exact muzzle velocity, as this differs between guns. Because he does not have this by default, he must therefore be a bullet timer. The initially-obvious interpretation that he is knocking the bullets out of the air with a spinning chain is correct.
~
Depending on the angles involved he could actually have just been using his vampire level strength to spin the chain extremely fast and increase the odds of the bullets hitting it. He would not have needed exact knowledge of the weapons workings, just a rough idea of how far back the trigger needs to go to fire and a very good estimation of the trajectory it would take (which would take a lot of skill on top of an exceptional spacial sense) and angle the disk of the chain’s movement accordingly. For that matter he would probably be able to see the fire decision in the person’s eyes and could time it that way too, he has been shown to be an excellent judge of people’s reactions. The control delay of something like a swinging chain would make exact positioning in space and time for each bullet impossible to do even for a ‘bullet timer’ so it is a matter of increasing odds of an interception by proper positioning and very high cyclic speed and not painstaking precision placement for each bullet. Besides if he was really a ‘bullet timer’ like the Flash he could simply catch them by hand like the Flash has been known to do.
-
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“ But even aim-blocking in the space of time it takes for someone to squeeze a trigger and a bullet to fire would make one faster than what Obi-Wan is shown to be. “
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That is the limits of the actors portraying the character, not the limits of the character. Obi-Wan and other Jedi have been shown in the EU to be able to block blaster bolts from dozens of firers at once, something that the actors and stunt performers could never do. Blade in the movies does not seem that fast either, there is a limit to how fast someone can move dressed in heavy leather and rubber waving several pounds of metal around and camera tricks to speed it up all too often make it look like the Keystone Kops or the Monkeeys on a romp, hardly something one wants in a gritty action film.
-
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“ Still, Blade’s sword is made of titanium, meaning it would get sliced up by a lightsaber. With his vastly superior speed, Blade could hurl his Katana into Obi-Wans chest, and if that doesn’t prove fatal, could jump in to immobilize Kenobi’s lightsaber arm and finish the job. Kenobi can’t block a flying sword with a lightsaber, and I doubt his ability to dodge, even with precognition, when it is thrown by a bullet-timer. “
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Those are valid tactics, and probably Blades best bet if there is nothing supernatural about the sword that would keep it from getting sliced up. They are not sure to win tactics either though. Kenobi could feel that he needs to be elsewhere suddenly and dodge the path of the sword even before he knows exactly what the danger was from for instance. Doing something like that is not even as hard a stretch as pitching backwards off an aircar knowing for sure that there is going to be another one in exactly the right place, time, and angle to catch the falling Jedi like his padawan did.
-
To top it off Obi-Wan’s favored style is form III (Soresu) which is a very conservative and mostly defensive form that encourages the enemy to waste energy attacking while using the least amount of energy to defend which is modified by a mastery of Sokan which is the art of using the environment against ones opponent. Soresu is good against multiple opponents, which would make vampire speed a little less effective since the form stresses being able to defend multiple attacks from different directions at once. Blade would have probably made short work of Qui-Gon Jinn, his habitual use of the Ataru form, while impressive to normals, would not surprise or wow Blade one bit while leaving himself open too much and is close to the combat style of many vampires that he faced and defeated over the years. Kenobi is hard to get to and Blade only has one or two tries with his sword before he has to try going to hand to lightsaber combat. If Blade’s sword is supernaturally charged like a Sith sword then it might be different, but if not I think the advantage leans more towards Obi-Wan.
And this is why we argue.
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“Depending on the angles involved he could actually have just been using his vampire level strength to spin the chain extremely fast and increase the odds of the bullets hitting it.”
-That would have been likely, but there’s a problem. You can’t spin anything faster than you can move your hand in those tiny circles. The chain would have to be moving far faster than the bullet for it to knock the latter out of the air, since the scan shows it’s entering on the side of the disc of the chain. That would make Blade much faster than a bullet, since the chain would have no momentum otherwise. Mere strength doesn’t make things faster; it’s still a matter of speed.
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“The control delay of something like a swinging chain would make exact positioning in space and time for each bullet impossible to do even for a ‘bullet timer’ so it is a matter of increasing odds of an interception by proper positioning and very high cyclic speed and not painstaking precision placement for each bullet.”
-Again, because the chain was being swung parallel to the gunman and not towards him, the cyclic speed would necessarily have to be much faster than the bullet itself. We can also clearly see one of the bullets hit the weighted and spiked end of the chain. If Blade is the bullet-timer I believe he is, then much less speed would be required to simply adjust his hand and swing speed of the chain to intercept the flying bullet. I do think this happened, because the chain is slightly curved while being spun, and not completely taught like it would be if he were spinning it fast enough to ensure the end of it blocked the bullet by sheer likelihood.
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“Besides if he was really a ‘bullet timer’ like the Flash he could simply catch them by hand like the Flash has been known to do.”
-Nah, the Flash has the Speed Force to protect him, while Blade can still be pierced by bullets, hence why he blocked them.
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“Kenobi could feel that he needs to be elsewhere suddenly and dodge the path of the sword even before he knows exactly what the danger was from for instance.”
-He could certainly do that, yes. I haven’t forgotten battle precognition. But my thoughts in regards to this were that Blade would adjust to hit the dodging Jedi, not throw at where he was. If dodging only after the katana has actually left Blade’s hand, Obi-Wan would make himself that much more vulnerable to being seized by Blade. If he manages to dodge a sword thrown by a bullet-timer in the first place, that is.
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Now, due to you arguing, I had remembered something that would have increased Obi-Wan’s chances of wounding Blade; Force Speed. Now that I think about it though, it makes sense that he hasn’t used force speed in combat (just to escape that one time) because Jedi don’t use The Force to attack. So nevermind that. It has to be consciously turned on anyway, making it useless in a momentary situation.
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“That is the limits of the actors portraying the character, not the limits of the character. Obi-Wan and other Jedi have been shown in the EU to be able to block blaster bolts from dozens of firers at once, something that the actors and stunt performers could never do. ”
-I disagree. It is perfectly possible to make actors appear to move much faster than they can, and the movies are the highest canon in the franchise. But even though the Extended Universe is oft disputed as a source of canon, it has been stated viable for this fight, which is why I was waiting for additional feats to be brought forward. I don’t own any Star Wars books.
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“To top it off Obi-Wan’s favored style is form III (Soresu) which is a very conservative and mostly defensive form that encourages the enemy to waste energy attacking while using the least amount of energy to defend”
-I have mentioned that, in fact. Blade has superhuman stamina though, so there’s little chance of him being worn out before Obi-Wan. Not that it matters, because Blade’s sword will be cut in two if it meets the lightsaber.
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“Kenobi is hard to get to and Blade only has one or two tries with his sword before he has to try going to hand to lightsaber combat.”
-Very true. Obi-Wan retains the advantage, there’s no doubt about that. If he could use telekinesis, he could immobilize Blade easily. But as it is, Blade’s sword is going to be extremely dangerous when thrown, even with the point cut off (plus, he could pick up the severed tip). And Blade definitely will throw it when it proves useless for hand-to-hand combat, since he uses thrown weapons all the time, to great effect. That means, with his vastly superior speed and honed combat ability, he stands a good chance of grabbing Obi-Wan’s lightsaber arm before being killed. He may be stabbed or cut in some fashion, but he still has his regeneration powers (explained here). If he get’s to Obi-Wan, the latter’s dead.
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Anyway, being an intelligent and skilled guy, I think the Jedi would know enough to keep his lightsaber pointing out defensively. He’s either going to be impaled by a hurled blade, or he’s going to dodge it. Either way, it gives the bullet-timer plenty chance to kick his adversary’s hand, probably breaking it, and tackle him. Blade is smart as well. I’m still in support of him, but could be convinced to think differently with some more info.
There’s also the fact that it really doesn’t take much to incapacitate Obi-Wan. A couple small cuts put him down for good in his AotC Dooku duel.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYw5KWTe15I&t=1m35s
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Blade’s super resilience and regeneration means he can take far more punishment than Obi-Wan can before going down. Like Soulerous said, it’s gonna be over for Kenobi if Blade uses his superior speed/agility to get his hands on him and snap something.
“That would make Blade much faster than a bullet, since the chain would have no momentum otherwise. Mere strength doesn’t make things faster; it’s still a matter of speed.”
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That is attack/reaction speed but what about anything of movement that clearly shows an ability to blitz Kenobi? Being that blasters move about as fast as a bullet and his pre-cog counters that, I don’t see Blade overwhelming Obi-Wan unless he has a movement speed feat that allows him to.
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“-He could certainly do that, yes. I haven’t forgotten battle precognition. But my thoughts in regards to this were that Blade would adjust to hit the dodging Jedi, not throw at where he was. If dodging only after the katana has actually left Blade’s hand, Obi-Wan would make himself that much more vulnerable to being seized by Blade. If he manages to dodge a sword thrown by a bullet-timer in the first place, that is.”
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If they’re at breathing distance apart in a sword lock, this could work. Otherwise, if Blade’s weapons aren’t shown to be adamantium, then they won’t be taking a blow from a lightsaber. Anyone can prove Blade’s weapons are adamantium?
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“If he could use telekinesis, he could immobilize Blade easily. But as it is, Blade’s sword is going to be extremely dangerous when thrown, even with the point cut off (plus, he could pick up the severed tip).”
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If Kenobi can use the force to hold him down completely and close enough, Blade’s out of a head.
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“He’s either going to be impaled by a hurled blade, or he’s going to dodge it.”
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Why not just Force Push it back?
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“Either way, it gives the bullet-timer plenty chance to kick his adversary’s hand, probably breaking it, and tackle him. ”
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Maybe in that scenario but that’s also dependent on range.
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“A couple small cuts put him down for good”
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He is just human in durability, that’s not in doubt here.
“That is attack/reaction speed but what about anything of movement that clearly shows an ability to blitz Kenobi?”
-I don’t think he’d “blitz” Obi-Wan, just fight far faster than him because he’s capable of knocking bullets out of the air. If his arms and eyes can work that fast, we’ve no reason to assume the rest of his body isn’t on the same level. And while this really isn’t much, it at least shows Blade can dodge out of the line of fire of two soldiers before they can react.
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“Being that blasters move about as fast as a bullet”
-Blaster bolts move far slower than bullets. This was discussed earlier in the thread. If you want to see it, start at post 112.
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“If they’re at breathing distance apart in a sword lock, this could work. Otherwise, if Blade’s weapons aren’t shown to be adamantium, then they won’t be taking a blow from a lightsaber.”
-It seems like you’re replying to a whole different argument. You know we are discussing Blade hurling his katana at Obi-Wan when he realizes he can’t cross blades with him? I’m fairly certain his sword is only titanium (an odd metal to make a sword out of, by the way).
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“If Kenobi can use the force to hold him down completely and close enough, Blade’s out of a head.”
-This is a swordfight. Kenobi doesn’t get telekinesis, nor does Blade get his guns.
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“Maybe in that scenario but that’s also dependent on range.” -Of course, but you don’t think an expert warrior and martial artist of over a hundred years old would make the mistake of not being close enough to take advantage of his one shot, do you? I don’t.
By chance, I have just found out why there’s so much talk of Blade’s sword being composed of adamantium. He openly states it.
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I think Blade’s chances at winning just went way up.
-“ That would have been likely, but there’s a problem. You can’t spin anything faster than you can move your hand in those tiny circles. The chain would have to be moving far faster than the bullet for it to knock the latter out of the air, since the scan shows it’s entering on the side of the disc of the chain. That would make Blade much faster than a bullet, since the chain would have no momentum otherwise. Mere strength doesn’t make things faster; it’s still a matter of speed. “
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Strength is needed to put the energy into the swing and to control the path of the chain. Unfortunately the single frame showing the action is far too stylized to get any usable data out of beyond the fact that out of three shots fired the chain intercepted two of them (not a bad showing really). Only a short arc is actually shown and the whole composition of the frame is too distorted on a real spacial/physics level (and concentrates on an impressional level instead) to be able to do anything but guess at what Blade is actually doing to deflect those two bullets.
-
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“Besides if he was really a ‘bullet timer’ like the Flash he could simply catch them by hand like the Flash has been known to do.”
-Nah, the Flash has the Speed Force to protect him, while Blade can still be pierced by bullets, hence why he blocked them.
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A bullet timer does not need ‘speed force’ to absorb a bullets impact to catch one; simply matching speeds between the bullet and the hand zeroes out the impact, from there it is just a matter of slowing the hand down again with the bullet inside the fist.
-
“ -He could certainly do that, yes. I haven’t forgotten battle precognition. But my thoughts in regards to this were that Blade would adjust to hit the dodging Jedi, not throw at where he was. “
-
That runs into the problem of paradox; since he ends up never throwing the blade in the original attack (retaining it to throw later) Kenobi would not have dodged it so it would be impossible to aim at him while he is dodging the never thrown sword because there is nothing to cause him to dodge in the first place. On the other hand he could feint at a more normal speed, but feinting at too high of a speed for Kenobi to see would be useless for tricking him into dodging “manually” instead of via precognition
-
“ because Jedi don’t use The Force to attack . “
-
That is what they say, but not really what they do. Several times in the movies and quite often in the books the jedi will lead off the fight with some decidedly offensive use of telekinesis or other force trick. They just stop short of hurling pure rage at their opponent as lightning like the sith are fond of doing is all. And that is with the Guardian type jedi like Obi-Wan or Anikan , the Consulars sometimes blast away at each other with active force effects and leave the swordplay for later if at all (as seen between Yoda and Duku or a shorter display between Yoda and Sidious where they tossed each other around before grabbing for sabers).
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“ -I disagree. It is perfectly possible to make actors appear to move much faster than they can, and the movies are the highest canon in the franchise. But even though the Extended Universe is oft disputed as a source of canon, it has been stated viable for this fight, which is why I was waiting for additional feats to be brought forward. I don’t own any Star Wars books. “
-
Speeding people up artificially can be done; it is just rarely done and it is even rarer that it is done well. More often than not it is done by using slow motion and giving an “adrenalin eye view” of the battle instead. Probably the most effective of the speedups are the hyperblurry rush shticks that are mostly used for travel and occasionally plowing someone against a wall for a little conversation, where the blur hides most of the Keystone Kops effect.
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It is a little too late tonight to dig up book quotes, though I may get some time tomorrow to boot over to linux and use the database to find some appropriate ones. I have one in there about Tahiri timing things quick enough to squeeze the barrel shut on Y-V plasma cannons to make the cannons explode for instance, which I have used in other threads.
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My comment on the efficiency of Soresu was part of the general background of the style, the important part is where the jedi is trained against multiple foes in different directions, which is what vampiric celerity would be like fighting (that and to point out that it would help stretch Kenobis relatively lower stamina).
-
“ If he get’s to Obi-Wan, the latter’s dead. “
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I have to agree with that, if Blade can get through Kenobi’s defenses in a significant way Obi-Wan is not much tougher than an ordinary human is against physical trauma.
-
“ By chance, I have just found out why there’s so much talk of Blade’s sword being composed of adamantium. He openly states it. “
-
It probably is adamantium in the comics then, in the movies where there is little or no mention of anything else Marvel he states that it is titanium I am fairly sure. Since it states in the header for this debate that the Marvel version is the one used that would make the sword adamantium which would make it possible to do full out swordfighting.
“Strength is needed to put the energy into the swing and to control the path of the chain.”
-Unquestionably, but all the strength in the world isn’t going to help a sloth catch Superman. It still depends on how fast the muscles can move and the eyes can process.
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Comics are not among my favored medium for feats, but once in a while you can get a good scan. I looked through a bunch of other scans for Blade, and it’s frustrating how often he was in an intense situation and didn’t actually show his ability definitively.
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”A bullet timer does not need ‘speed force’ to absorb a bullets impact to catch one; simply matching speeds between the bullet and the hand zeroes out the impact, from there it is just a matter of slowing the hand down again with the bullet inside the fist.”
-If they’re fast enough, yes. I would’ve put that speed a little above base bullet-timer. You can hit a baseball with a bat, but it’s quite a bit harder to catch it and gradually slow it down within your arm span. You’ll almost always feel much of the impact jolt you all at once. Still, If I could slow the baseball to a stop in my hand, It would leave me more vulnerable than I’d otherwise be. What I’m really saying is, Blade might be able to do what you suggest, but blocking with a chain is easier, so it doesn’t matter.
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“That runs into the problem of paradox” -Yes, you’re right. Obi-Wan would dodge only if Blade did throw. But would he be fast enough? I can’t recall a particular instance of him dodging anything of high velocity. Regardless, Blade won’t throw his sword if he doesn’t need to, which he won’t if it’s made of adamantium, which it is.
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But here’s another thing that’s been annoying me. Where did people get the notion that force-users are supernaturally fast? I can believe that, I just haven’t seen anything that points to it. There is such a thing as Force Speed, but otherwise, all the Jedi and Sith I’ve ever seen in the movies or read of in several books have had normal human-level speed. The Force guides them to the best use of their capabilities and grants them the infamous precognition, but since when does it make the user passively faster? That goes against everything I’ve seen, and I hadn’t even heard it until this thread.
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Blade’s adamantium sword, though, is just one of several. His others are titanium, but it makes no sense to give him one of his weaker ones when this is supposed to be a swordfight, after all.
“ -Unquestionably, but all the strength in the world isn’t going to help a sloth catch Superman. It still depends on how fast the muscles can move and the eyes can process. “
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That assumes that the person is using their own muscles and eyes to perceive and to move, which is not always the case with the jedi. As to paraphrase Kenobi “the force controls your actions but obeys your wishes” ; the more the jedi relaxes into the flow of the force the closer that connection becomes and the greater the effect they have on the flow of events around the jedi.
-
The force speed power is an application of that, the jedi submerges so far that they no longer control their own actions at all, the force does, but in return the jedi can perceive events in an almost timeless state that allows them to see things in detail that they would not be able to see at all normally, like very high speed happenings and decide how they want to influence the flow. Luke Skywalker did not like the sensation of not being in control much though he used it when he had t (in the last battle of the YV war he had to use it a lot to keep up with the heavily reflex enhanced top level special forces, and Jason Solo went a very rare step further, going into a state where time seemed to run in both directions at once and yet not actually run at all allowing detailed inspection of past ‘present’ and future(s) and even bridge time so that it was possible to (in effect) undo something in the past but have its effect skip to the ‘present’ and unravel it there instead of undoing everything in between). The effects of the power is similar to vampire celerity though it is not something that can be used for long periods of time, it is very draining to use.
-
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“ But here’s another thing that’s been annoying me. Where did people get the notion that force-users are supernaturally fast? I can believe that, I just haven’t seen anything that points to it. There is such a thing as Force Speed, but otherwise, all the Jedi and Sith I’ve ever seen in the movies or read of in several books have had normal human-level speed. The Force guides them to the best use of their capabilities and grants them the infamous precognition, but since when does it make the user passively faster? That goes against everything I’ve seen, and I hadn’t even heard it until this thread. “
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As far as I know of the force speed trick would be the closest to being ‘passively faster’. Most force users just use cues from the force and ride the superimposed reflexes from the force and just seem faster because they react with the supplied solution the moment the action is committed to rather than when it is executed and having to process it and come up with a reaction. Even normal reaction speed seems faster with this head start.
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It would be a hell of a fight, the raw speed and strength of Blade against the incredible efficiency and momentary physical boosts of Obi-Wan. I do not know enough about the comic version of Blade to form an informed opinion of which would win, though I suspect it would be a close fight.
So who is winning so far?
“That assumes that the person is using their own muscles and eyes to perceive and to move, which is not always the case with the jedi.”
-We were speaking of Blade, though.
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“As to paraphrase Kenobi “the force controls your actions but obeys your wishes”
-Partially. But you’re describing physical enhancement, not a matter of control.
~
“The force speed power is an application of that, the jedi submerges so far that they no longer control their own actions at all, the force does, but in return the jedi can perceive events in an almost timeless state that allows them to see things in detail that they would not be able to see at all normally, like very high speed happenings and decide how they want to influence the flow.”
-They no longer control their actions? I’ve actually never seen this ability described in literature, so I wouldn’t know. But when I say ‘passively’ I mean something that is always in effect. Force Speed seems to be something that takes effect only when “activated,” which is fine, but I’ve still not seen The Force passively enhance someone in a way not related to knowledge or control. So if you stumble upon something that explains it, I’d appreciate it being shared. Don’t go out of your way, though.
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“The effects of the power is similar to vampire celerity though it is not something that can be used for long periods of time, it is very draining to use.”
-Yes, this I know. This limits it’s usefulness quite a bit.
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“Most force users just use cues from the force and ride the superimposed reflexes from the force and just seem faster because they react with the supplied solution the moment the action is committed”
-And I think others should keep this in mind. I’d have thought homework would be done before the claim that Obi-Wan can move at Mach 5,000 is made.
~
“So who is winning so far?” -Well, both combatants are master fighters, but Obi-Wan mainly uses a defensive, energy-conservative fighting style and waits for his opponents to tire out. This actually works against him in this instance of swordplay, as Blade has superhuman stamina. The latter can also heal from most anything short of a severed limb, so minor wounds will not be adding up to take a toll. And while Obi-Wan has the advantage of being guided by The Force, such protection can and has failed. Blade’s feats make him much stronger and faster than his Jedi foe, so it’s quite clear to me that victory is his in this match.
@soul
thank you forthe detailed synopsis
my vote is for blade
Thou art welcome.
“Question: are Jedi really that fast in the books”
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Well, in the original book Revenge of the Sith, General Grievous was capable of 5 strikes per second with each of his four arms, each strike able to come at a different speed, trajectory, and angle each time. Towards the end of their fight, Obi-wan was parrying at a speed of 20 strikes per second. And when his defenses were overloaded, he changed the trajectory on one of his parries, and two lunges later Grievous had no lightsabers left in his hands, and one of his thumbs was gone.
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Later in the book, when Obi-wan fought Anakin, they each used the force on several occasions to pull the triggers on guns around the room, aimming the bolts at each other. Then they had tennis matches with said bolts until the bolts had dissolved into harmless particles (which would take a while).
So, according to the book, yes.
“If he was that fast he could speed blitz armies of Storm Troopers and Droids without them even knowing he was there. But he doesn’t so that throws that idea right out of the window.”
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Not exactly. Moving at that speed and RUNNING at that speed are two very different things. Now, Obi-Wan CAN’T move at that speed anyways that we know of, because there is not enough sufficient evidence to support this. However, there is enough evidence that Obi-wan can and has fought droid armies by himself for extended periods of time.
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Oh yeah, and since when did strikes or shots per second =meters per second? What the heck?!
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“The 18-20 strike blocking quote from the novel contradicts the film and is cancelled out. ”
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And the book was published BEFORE the movie had been produced…mhmm…Define original canon.
“Oh yeah, and since when did strikes or shots per second =meters per second? What the heck?!”
-Tell me about it. I can see the reasoning, but it’s still mostly flawed.
~
“And the book was published BEFORE the movie had been produced…mhmm…Define original canon.”
-’Original’ doesn’t always mean ‘highest form of’. Not that I’ve ever seen an official statement that the movies are highest myself, but I’m definitely inclined to believe it.
“but it’s still mostly flawed.”
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Understatement of the year.
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“Not that I’ve ever seen an official statement that the movies are highest myself, but I’m definitely inclined to believe it.”
-
I agree, but I think some things should have exceptions made for them. George Lucas gave the screenplay to Matthew Stover and let him write the book based off that. Can we treat the (original) book as higher canon in this instance? If not anything but to make this a more even match. Let’s face it, Obz is prolly gonna get merked if he is in movie form.
If you compare the movie version of Blade to the comic version you see that the actor does his best but still cannot match the feats in the comics even though they are the same character. The same thing is happening in Star Wars, there are no real force using lighsaber trained jedi knights available to play the part so they make do with a reasonably agile actor. Jedi are capable of the feats in the books despite the actors inability to match them. If Blade uses his adamantium katana this would be a long and interesting fight to see.
i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Blade%/Bladefaster.jpg
i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Blade%20Speed/Bladedodge.jpg
i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Blade%20Speed/Bladefast-1.jpg
i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Blade%20Speed/Bladefast2.jpg
Idk if these have been posted
Wouldn’t an accurate portrayal of Obi that isn’t restricted to actor and still lines up with the movie be during the Clone wars series?
“If Blade uses his adamantium katana this would be a long and interesting fight to see.”
-
Agreed, which is why I want to use the books as equal canon to the movies in this instance. It’s not a great match otherwise.
“Wouldn’t an accurate portrayal of Obi that isn’t restricted to actor and still lines up with the movie be during the Clone wars series?”
-
Not exactly…Revenge of the Sith (book) Obi-wan>Clone wars Obi-wan. And I doubt Clone wars Obi-wan would do much to blade at close range.
The best combat speed we’ve gotten for book Obi-Wan is something like 20 meters per second (with the flawed reasoning that blocking one strike from Grievous equals 1 meter).
~
I said many times before… new feats would be awesome. But did anyone oblige? No!
~
I’ve still seen no reason to believe that the Force passively makes users faster. Everything has always pointed to them simply reacting quickly and in an effective way. Jedi still got overwhelmed by the blasters bolts of only a handful of Stormtroopers. For all the supposed speed that Jedi and Sith have in the Extended Universe, I have not seen any support for it.
~
And as Blade is still faster and reacts to things via sped-up perception of things, I still see him winning.
~
“I want to use the books as equal canon to the movies in this instance. It’s not a great match otherwise.”
-Nevertheless, they are not equal canon. I think it’s been a fairy enjoyable debate, and I don’t think changing canon usage is the answer. But if you wish, maybe ask a moderator.
~
“If you compare the movie version of Blade to the comic version you see that the actor does his best but still cannot match the feats in the comics even though they are the same character. The same thing is happening in Star Wars, there are no real force using lighsaber trained jedi knights available to play the part so they make do with a reasonably agile actor. Jedi are capable of the feats in the books despite the actors inability to match them.”
-What proof is there that this is true, besides the books which are negated by the films in the first place?
~
These quotes by George lucas help to shed some light on the matter, as does this canon guide.
~
Insofar as the novels do not contradict the films, they are canon.
“The best combat speed we’ve gotten for book Obi-Wan is something like 20 meters per second (with the flawed reasoning that blocking one strike from Grievous equals 1 meter).”
-
Yes, that is VERY flawed. There is no way that Grievous, whom earlier in the book had swung a lightsaber at Obi-wan so fast that his arm disappeared, was moving his arm at only 1 m/sec. surprised when Obi-wan himself disappeared. At the same time, he had used the force to reverse the polarity in Grievous’ robotic arms so that his grip turned into him letting the lightsaber go, and it flew out of his hand, straight for Obi’s handcuffs (which he had moved in the direction of the lightsaber from behind his back).
-
However, this does NOT mean Obz is able to move at a bazillion m/s, I want to make that clear right now. Some peak humans currently alive can move their hands so fast that you can’t see them, like this guy:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNXElmEUIJo
Now, Grievous is still faster than this guy, and he was doing full swings from different angles each time, BUT a lightsaber’s blade is weightless, which means Obi-wan only has so move his wrists and hands faster than that, NOT his whole body. Still, that’s freaky, freaky fast, and it’s certainly not mach 5000 OR 20m/s! As soon as I have an actual value for an estimated speed I will put it here posthaste. For now, I gotta go.
” -What proof is there that this is true, besides the books which are negated by the films in the first place? ”
-
It is not a matter of canon at all, it is a matter of an actors ability to actually do what is written in a script and the lack of a good technological solution to the problem. Note that I said lack of a GOOD tech solution, not complete lack of one as long as the producer and director do not mind the result looking silly like the keystone cops.
Why is everything in italics?
It sometimes happens in certain threads until theres a new page
Hmmm, I wonder if I can bold stuff.
“’Original’ doesn’t always mean ‘highest form of’. Not that I’ve ever seen an official statement that the movies are highest myself, but I’m definitely inclined to believe it.”
-
Statements on movies being higher canon:
“There is a heirarchy — the movies, novelizations, radio dramas come first. Then everything else. If something in a novelization contradicts the movies, then we defer to the movies. IE, the ROJ novelization says that Obi-Wan and Owen Lars were brothers. This wasn’t in the movie, and has since been discounted. Maybe it was a cover they used at one point… who knows.” – Sue Rostoni, LucasBooks/LL Managing Editor, 2003
-
“When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves — and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas’ vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film’s production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.” – Chris Cerasi, LucasBooks Editor, 2001
-
So, while the novelizations are very accurate depictions, they are still are not as accurate as the films themselves. Films > novelizations
-
-
“And the book was published BEFORE the movie had been produced…mhmm…Define original canon.”
-
The films override the novels. That’s how it works. Obi-Wan’s super speed feat during the novelization duel is discounted.
“There’s also the fact that it really doesn’t take much to incapacitate Obi-Wan. A couple small cuts put him down for good in his AotC Dooku duel.”
Yeah, for good, that’s why he didn’t fight again later in the timeline.
I meant for good as in he was incapacitated for the rest of the fight. He would’ve been dead if it wasn’t for Anakin. Thought that was obvious.
There’s no backup to save his ass from Blade in this duel.
I know, I was just being silly.
Dooku was the one who trained Obi-wan in combat in the first place, before he went into the field as padawan to Qui-Gon Jinn. There are several stages of padawan and not everyone goes through all of them with the same master. Dooku knew in great detail exactly how Obi-wan fights and could take advantage of that knowledge, something Blade cannot do never having faced him or any other jedi before for that matter.
“Dooku was the one who trained Obi-wan in combat in the first place, before he went into the field as padawan to Qui-Gon Jinn. There are several stages of padawan and not everyone goes through all of them with the same master. Dooku knew in great detail exactly how Obi-wan fights and could take advantage of that knowledge, something Blade cannot do never having faced him or any other jedi before for that matter.”
-
Doesn’t matter. Blade is so physically superior that Obi-Wan just trying to parry will result in broken bones. That and Blade has guns and high explosives. I don’t know why people aren’t getting this. Blade can simply blow him to pieces or wield is sword and gun at the same time.
” Doesn’t matter. Blade is so physically superior that Obi-Wan just trying to parry will result in broken bones. That and Blade has guns and high explosives. I don’t know why people aren’t getting this. Blade can simply blow him to pieces or wield is sword and gun at the same time. ”
-
For this match Blade must have forgotten his guns and explosives in his other suit. It is sword vs. sword and inner power vs. inner power only according to the stuff on the first page.
+
Jedi very often fight opponents who could break them in half physically very easily; the force and their own resourcefulness are what keep them alive and allow them to win. Obi-wan does not need to match Blades speed, he just has to keep his saber in the right place at the right time and stay out of places where Blades sword will be when the jedi is there, and that is what the force is best at.
-
Obi-wan is not that great at force tricks since he is a guardian rather than a consular, but that is not a bad thing since it means that he concentrates more on using the force for saber fighting.
-
-
” The films override the novels. That’s how it works. Obi-Wan’s super speed feat during the novelization duel is discounted. ”
-
It does not discount the fact that he crossed the space with all those droids shooting at him however. He may have pushed his speed with the force or he may have done it in some other way without using undue speed, but the important part is that however he did it he did it.
“For this match Blade must have forgotten his guns and explosives in his other suit. It is sword vs. sword and inner power vs. inner power only according to the stuff on the first page.”
-
That’s not how these matches work. They get access to all of their standard equipment as per the rules unless otherwise stated by the OP. Thus Blade uses an adamantium Nodachi, which grants superior melee combat range as well as weight, an MP of some type, numerous bladed weapons, explosives, etc etc.
-
“Jedi very often fight opponents who could break them in half physically very easily; the force and their own resourcefulness are what keep them alive and allow them to win. Obi-wan does not need to match Blades speed, he just has to keep his saber in the right place at the right time and stay out of places where Blades sword will be when the jedi is there, and that is what the force is best at.”
-
Not as simple as that. None of them can match the skill and strength of Blade. None of you have given examples of them parrying a solid blow from a class 3 or higher combined with the speed that Blade will be swinging his sword. Blade can bring to bear 3 tons of solid force not factoring in the velocity of the blow itself which will be thrown at hundreds of MPHs. Prove it or Blade wins automatically.
“ Prove it or Blade wins automatically. “
-
You know that is not how these things work; burden of proof applies to backing up claims, not for issuing ultimatums.
-
-
“ Not as simple as that. None of them can match the skill and strength of Blade. None of you have given examples of them parrying a solid blow from a class 3 or higher combined with the speed that Blade will be swinging his sword. Blade can bring to bear 3 tons of solid force not factoring in the velocity of the blow itself which will be thrown at hundreds of MPHs. “
-
Three tons of force does not mean much without the area of application unfortunately.
-
Playing catch with the float platforms in the senate chamber could easily match that, and Yoda is about the size and weight of a beagle and was still doing it using the force.
-
In the clip below (a convenient compilation of officially approved game cinematics) the jedi starts flinging large pieces of debris at the sith who parries it with his saber and the force at about 4:58:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPdJdEFilaU
Also notice the kick at 14:08, not only does it throw the jedi a ways, he lands with enough force to gouge and shatter the marble flooring. At about 14:18 the jedi is hit with enough power to smash him right through a solid chunk of debris (and he leaves a sizable hole too). Jedi routinely face attacks with the equivalent of tons of force, and while it hurts they can handle it and keep fighting.
-
won’t obiwan know what blade’s first attack is going to be(jedi precog), and since he’ll see blade is using a physical sword just…kinda…cut through blade’s sword and into blade?
” won’t obiwan know what blade’s first attack is going to be(jedi precog), and since he’ll see blade is using a physical sword just…kinda…cut through blade’s sword and into blade? ”
-
No, Blade brought his best sword to this encounter and left the titanium ones at home. Adamantium is an extremely advanced material and it is being asumed that it is lightsaber resistant like ultrachrome, besker, cortosis alloy, or force charged material. It is actually common enough in Star Wars to encounter blades like that; Obi-wan would probably assume it is some sith alchemy produced sword and get on with the fight.
-
The precog would guide him to parry the strike in a way that he does not get both the blades in his face from the strength behind the strike though.
“You know that is not how these things work; burden of proof applies to backing up claims, not for issuing ultimatums.”
-
That’s exactly how this works.
-
“Three tons of force does not mean much without the area of application unfortunately.”
-
The area of application is directly into Obi’s arms.
-
“In the clip below (a convenient compilation of officially approved game cinematics) the jedi starts flinging large pieces of debris at the sith who parries it with his saber and the force at about 4:58:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPdJdEFilaU”
-
1. Your committing Association Fallacy. Don’t do that. Nobody in this video is Obi.
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2. You don’t know how much those objects weighed. I saw a metal table and a container thrown at him. However containers are hollow thus not heavy unless filled. But that’s all irrelevant if you don’t know how much those objects weighed. Just saying they weighed tons doesn’t cut it. Prove it.
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3. Tons is not the equivalent of tons with 400-800mph+ of speed behind it. A car hitting you at 10mph isn’t going to do much. A car hitting you at 200mph will fling you across the street.
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4. The problem with your example is that the objects split in half thus no force was impact was felt. That won’t happen with Blade. Adamantium is unbreakable and cannot be melt. Thus the sheer force of every blow will launch Obi across the room.
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5. You still didn’t explain how he was going to get past the fully and the explosives.
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“ That’s exactly how this works. “
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Look up the rules; it is a burden of proof fallacy.
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“ The area of application is directly into Obi’s arms. “
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I was talking about force per area, as in tons per square what? Square inch? Square micron? Square meter? Square mile? It makes a considerable difference in physics.
-
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“ 1. Your committing Association Fallacy. Don’t do that. Nobody in this video is Obi. “
-
Not Obi-wan but jedi nonetheless. Not all jedi can do everything; they all have their specialties, but it does give an idea of the range of things possible to jedi which is important because they do not show Obi-wan in every possible situation in the movies (though I seem to remember him pulling something like the large object ping pong in Clone Wars). Association Fallacy takes more wild leaps of logic than that.
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“ 2. You don’t know how much those objects weighed. I saw a metal table and a container thrown at him. However containers are hollow thus not heavy unless filled. But that’s all irrelevant if you don’t know how much those objects weighed. Just saying they weighed tons doesn’t cut it. Prove it. “
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I did not say they weighed tons, though to fling them around could very well take tons of force depending on the speed and mass. You are confusing weight with force in this and point three; while the two are related they are not exactly the same thing.
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“ 3. Tons is not the equivalent of tons with 400-800mph+ of speed behind it. A car hitting you at 10mph isn’t going to do much. A car hitting you at 200mph will fling you across the street. “
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The kinetic energy involved is what matters. The three tones of force would be what accelerates the sword, it has nothing to do with weight unless you are claiming that the sword or Blades arm weighs three tons.
-
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“ 4. The problem with your example is that the objects split in half thus no force was impact was felt. That won’t happen with Blade. Adamantium is unbreakable and cannot be melt. Thus the sheer force of every blow will launch Obi across the room. “
-
The debris was also being deflected to some degree as well. As for the force of the blow launching Obi-wan around both the linked video and parts of the movies and Clone Wars series show that that kind of thing is not uncommon in jedi fights without even going to the novels. Jedi are very adept at riding the force of insanely powerful blows so the majority of their energy passes by instead of damaging the jedi. Like the practitioners of the ‘drunken’ forms in Kung Fu jedi are adept at skimming the edges of blows instead of taking them directly so most of the energy passes them by. As a master of sorescu form Obi-wan is particularly good at this kind of defense.
-
“ 5. You still didn’t explain how he was going to get past the fully and the explosives. “
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If by ‘fully’ you are referring to ‘fully automatic firearm’ the jury is out on that one simply because the source material is unresolvably inconsistent. Sometimes the jedi can deflect bullets and sometimes not, in one case it was even stated in a book that they could not and then they do it anyway in another scene in the same book. One thing that is for sure though is that jedi can aim-dodge with the best of them.
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One myth that can be put to rest though is the old saw about the jedi being hit by molten metal. The blades are so hot that unless the bullets were made out of some material that is lightsaber resistant they would vaporize long before they could pass through the field. Qui-Gon Jinn cut through what looked like four to six inches of battle steel getting that blast door in the first movie open without any running metal from the point of insertion. On top of that there is the often described gyroscopic feel of the sabers caused by the containment fields interacting with the environment doing things like deflecting air away from the blade which would tend to throw any theoretical splatter of molten projectile to the sides instead of continuing on to hit the jedi.
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The explosives could prove to be as dangerous to Blade as they are to the jedi. Magneto is not the only person in fiction to ever pull the pins of grenades by remote control while they are still on the belt of the villain you know. Several times in the novels at least jedi have set off explosive devices early or grabbed them telekinetically and sent them back to the would be bomber. They also are shown in the movies and elsewhere to ride the blast waves out letting most of the energy pass by harmlessly (though they do get thrown around that way) where a normal person would get ripped apart by the blast. Obi-wan is known to use force barrier at times which would protect him from an explosion if he gets it up in time too.
“Look up the rules; it is a burden of proof fallacy.”
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I backed up my claim which you have yet to do. I have proven Blades strength. I’ve proven that he can actively engage opponents who break the sound barrier in hand to hand combat and win. You have yet to prove alike feat for Obi.
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“Not Obi-wan but jedi nonetheless. Not all jedi can do everything; they all have their specialties, but it does give an idea of the range of things possible to jedi which is important because they do not show Obi-wan in every possible situation in the movies (though I seem to remember him pulling something like the large object ping pong in Clone Wars). Association Fallacy takes more wild leaps of logic than that.”
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No it doesn’t. The rules go state as followed
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“10. Association fallacy
This is when someone claims that since A has certain qualities, and B is in some way associated with A, then B has those qualities as well, without actual proof of this.
Example: “Many Naruto ninjas use genjutsu. Therefore Gai knows genjutsu as well.”
While this could be possible, there is no confirmation, and merely because other ninjas know it doesn’t mean he does.”
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You have yet to show Obi doing these things. Thus you’re speculating. Don’t do that. Feats or it didn’t happen.
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“I did not say they weighed tons, though to fling them around could very well take tons of force depending on the speed and mass. You are confusing weight with force in this and point three; while the two are related they are not exactly the same thing.”
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No I am not. You said Jedi have blocked tons of force and objects weighing tons but have not proven they have blocked objects weighing tons. The only Jedi/Sith I’ve seen canonically do this is Vader and Starkiller in Force Unleashed. Obi-Wan however has never done this in any movie I’ve seen.
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“The kinetic energy involved is what matters. The three tones of force would be what accelerates the sword, it has nothing to do with weight unless you are claiming that the sword or Blades arm weighs three tons.”
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You also take into account the weight behind the blow itself. Since Blade can put his own body weight behind it that’s 215lbs plus the weight of his nodachi which is another 7lbs
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However all this is irrelevant since you still haven’t proven that Obi-Wan can even keep up with blade.
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“The debris was also being deflected to some degree as well. As for the force of the blow launching Obi-wan around both the linked video and parts of the movies and Clone Wars series show that that kind of thing is not uncommon in jedi fights without even going to the novels. Jedi are very adept at riding the force of insanely powerful blows so the majority of their energy passes by instead of damaging the jedi. Like the practitioners of the ‘drunken’ forms in Kung Fu jedi are adept at skimming the edges of blows instead of taking them directly so most of the energy passes them by. As a master of sorescu form Obi-wan is particularly good at this kind of defense.”
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Yet you haven’t shown him do it. Show me him doing what you say he’s going to do.
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“If by ‘fully’ you are referring to ‘fully automatic firearm’ the jury is out on that one simply because the source material is unresolvably inconsistent. Sometimes the jedi can deflect bullets and sometimes not, in one case it was even stated in a book that they could not and then they do it anyway in another scene in the same book. One thing that is for sure though is that jedi can aim-dodge with the best of them.”
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1. What’s the RPMs of the weapons in question? As stated before Blade uses MPs specifically weapons like the MP7. MP7 has a firing rate of 950 RPMs meaning Blade can effectively send 16 rounds a second at Obi-Wan at full spray and due to his high level of strength recoil is a non-issue meaning the grouping will be extremely tight. Besides that the muzzle velocity of this weapon is 735m/s. What has Obi-Wan dodged that moved that fast and that numerous? Nothing to my knowledge unless you of course show me the feats.
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2. He’s not aim-dodging Blade. He’s nowhere near fast enough. Your problem is you’re comparing Blade to Starwars characters which are unfortunately inferior to most street level Marvel characters. Blade is simply too fast, too strong, too well equipped, too well trained, and is to experienced to be beaten by Obi-Wan. Compared to Dracula and Wolverine Obi-Wan is Tuesday.
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“One myth that can be put to rest though is the old saw about the jedi being hit by molten metal. The blades are so hot that unless the bullets were made out of some material that is lightsaber resistant they would vaporize long before they could pass through the field. Qui-Gon Jinn cut through what looked like four to six inches of battle steel getting that blast door in the first movie open without any running metal from the point of insertion. On top of that there is the often described gyroscopic feel of the sabers caused by the containment fields interacting with the environment doing things like deflecting air away from the blade which would tend to throw any theoretical splatter of molten projectile to the sides instead of continuing on to hit the jedi.”
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Never said it would splash into his face. I was under the assumption it would just vaporize. However it doesn’t really matter. Too many bullets to block.
“The explosives could prove to be as dangerous to Blade as they are to the jedi. Magneto is not the only person in fiction to ever pull the pins of grenades by remote control while they are still on the belt of the villain you know. Several times in the novels at least jedi have set off explosive devices early or grabbed them telekinetically and sent them back to the would be bomber. They also are shown in the movies and elsewhere to ride the blast waves out letting most of the energy pass by harmlessly (though they do get thrown around that way) where a normal person would get ripped apart by the blast. Obi-wan is known to use force barrier at times which would protect him from an explosion if he gets it up in time too.”
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Keyword here is novels. Show us Obi-Wan using Force Shield in the movies. Besides that there’s this thing called shrapnel. Not to mention gas canisters. And besides that according to HK the best way to deal with Jedi/Sith are explosive devices and nerve gas.
Holy Crap.
~
ZomB meant for this to be a pure sword fight. Obi-Wan gets no telekinesis, Blade gets not guns or explosives.
~
Blade is faster and stronger than Obi-Wan. He wins the swordfight.
“ “You know that is not how these things work; burden of proof applies to backing up claims, not for issuing ultimatums.”
-
That’s exactly how this works. “
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Then it looks like we have an impasse on this particular point because I when I read the rules it does not work that way; the way I read it is proofs are for claims made by a poster, not for challenging the opponent to prove some arbitrary point decided by the challenger . The admin will have to do a ruling on it for this point to be resolved one way or the other.
-
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“ “Three tons of force does not mean much without the area of application unfortunately.”
-
The area of application is directly into Obi’s arms. “
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That still means nothing in a physics sense. Force calculations are in some unit like ounces, pounds, or ton PER a unit of area like square inches, square centimeters, or square miles. If they were arm wrestling it would be a different matter since it would be direct pressure vs. pressure.
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“ “Look up the rules; it is a burden of proof fallacy.”
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I backed up my claim which you have yet to do. I have proven Blades strength. I’ve proven that he can actively engage opponents who break the sound barrier in hand to hand combat and win. You have yet to prove alike feat for Obi. “
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I did not make a claim on this point so I have nothing that I have to prove about it. You made the following statement at the end of your post (#191) and I simply pointed out that your statement (which I have quoted below) constitutes a burden of proof fallacy due to the last sentence:
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““ Not as simple as that. None of them can match the skill and strength of Blade. None of you have given examples of them parrying a solid blow from a class 3 or higher combined with the speed that Blade will be swinging his sword. Blade can bring to bear 3 tons of solid force not factoring in the velocity of the blow itself which will be thrown at hundreds of MPHs. Prove it or Blade wins automatically. ““
-
-
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“ You have yet to show Obi doing these things. Thus you’re speculating. Don’t do that. Feats or it didn’t happen. “
And
“10. Association fallacy …..”
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The whole block of four paragraphs is too much to copy here, this post is getting too long as it is. The fact that the clip does not show Obi-wan specifically the chopping and deflecting large thrown objects himself does not constitute an association fallacy since it is not a case of a single thing of a type being erroneously projected to every other thing of that type. The fallacy is also called ‘Affirming the consequent’ and it does not apply to things that actually are common in a type. A good example of the fallacy is from Monty Python (in this case via TV Tropes website):
“They burn witches.
They burn wood.
Therefore witches must be made of wood.
Wood floats.
Ducks float.
Therefore anything that weighs the same as a duck must be made of wood.
She weighs the same as a duck.
Therefore, she must also be made of wood, and therefore, a witch.”
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The chopping and/or deflecting of large objects is seen very often (even in the one clip it happens several times with different people involved in the throwing and defending) and it uses skills and powers that are very common and at least in the case of the telekinesis characters like Yoda apparently consider it so common that a jedi that cannot do it is considered handicapped in some way (in fact jedi from the Halcyon family line actually are since they do not have telekinetic ability normally, though their energy absorption is greatly enhanced) as evidenced by his talk and body language of exasperation on Degoba in the lifting the x-wing out of the swamp exercise in TESB. The pertinent parts of the scene from the IMDB page (despite the disclaimer there they are accurate enough):
” [Luke can't levitate his X-Wing out of the bog]
Luke: I can’t. It’s too big.
Yoda: Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.”
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“ Luke: All right, I’ll give it a try.
Yoda: No. Try not. Do… or do not. There is no try.”
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“[Using the Force, Yoda effortlessly frees the X-Wing from the bog]
Luke: I don’t, I don’t believe it.
Yoda: That is why you fail.”
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Yoda obviously believes that anyone who can do telekinesis at all can use it on large heavy objects as readily as they can use it on small ones. Instead of being an association fallacy this situation is more the opposite, the situation is like a police show where it is commonly accepted that the officers are trained in firearm use and trying to say that since one specific officer is not seen using a gun that the officer in question must have never been trained in their use and cannot use one.
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Some of the feats in the clip were rare, like Satele Shan catching the lightsaber blade in her hand, but I specifically pointed out the scenes where the combatants were dealing with the thrown objects and another where a force enhanced kick sent a jedi flying with considerable energy (as Kenobi has been thrown before) and the effects of his landing and not the rare stuff.
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As for showing Kenobi using advanced telekinesis in combat, there are two incidents in “chapter9”, an episode from the canon ‘clone wars’ series.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6LeL3s4Q80
The first one, at 01:36 shows Obi-wan deflecting bullets telekinetically. The second one, starting at 04:55 shows Obi-wan (who is trapped in Durge’s torso) using force repulse to pop Durge like a zit to escape. He used something vaguely like it on mustifaar in his battle with Vader as well in the telekinetic showdown that ended up with both of them flying off to bounce off opposite walls. The following clip has a few more telekinetic tricks:
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=7oGf-a1Dqlc
Starting with 1:13 where Obi-wan uses the force to sever the cables suspending a large heavy device to drop on the heads of some of Grevious’ soldiers and he uses more mundane levels of TK to pick things up including the blaster he fries Grevious with at the end of the clip.
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As for facing someone with something close to Blades strength the first one comes to mind is the general. He punches dents in starship hulls (one example is at 5:24 on this same clip, another is at the beginning of the move the clip is from when he is on his little spacewalk) and throws an electrostaff with enough force to break an armorglass window, all of which would take quite a bit of strength. In the clone wars shows and novels Kenobi faces other big strong nasty things as well.
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Moving on to speed, Obi-wan had done force speed before, and force speed is described suspiciously like vampire celerity in that it alters the jedi’s perception of time. Unfortunately searching for exact quotes on that in e-books is difficult since the novels do not use the names for the powers usually, the names come from the games mostly where they are used to ‘cast’ the power. In the following clip there is one example of force speed where the two jedi (one of which is Kenobi) use it to break off and run at extreme speed at about ten seconds into the clip.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-iHuz-mpq4
Of course as I have said before Obi-wan does not have to keep up with Blade, it is not a foot race after all, he simply needs to stick his saber in the right place at the right time and avoid places were Blades sword will soon pass.
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“ 1. What’s the RPMs of the weapons in question? As stated before Blade uses MPs specifically weapons like the MP7. MP7 has a firing rate of 950 RPMs ”
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The high cyclic speed means that Kenobi only needs to hold his defense (either the tk or the parry) for three seconds before Blades gun runs dry.
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“ 2. He’s not aim-dodging Blade. He’s nowhere near fast enough. “
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In your opinion. Besides he does not even have to be fast enough, the force has to be fast enough instead.
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“ Keyword here is novels. Show us Obi-Wan using Force Shield in the movies. Besides that there’s this thing called shrapnel. Not to mention gas canisters. And besides that according to HK the best way to deal with Jedi/Sith are explosive devices and nerve gas. “
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No, the keyword here is canon, and the novels are canon unless specifically contradicted by the movies. If Kenobi or any other Star Wars character does something in those novels that is not shown in the movies then it is still canon since mere absence of the feat in the movies does not constitute a direct contradiction.
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Gunray tried gassing the two jedi in ‘the phantom menace’; you saw how far that got him. It is true though that the best way to try to take out a jedi is probably with area effect weapons that would be hard to jump out of range of and cannot be parried easily if at all. The problem is in delivering the device causing the area effect attack without the jedi doing something to it telekinetically like setting it off on Blades person before he even reaches for it or grabbing it with TK and keeping in the area of Blade. The best way would be by total surprise, which is the way Aurra Sing would do it with her sniper rifle.