Suggested by Sauroposeidon
After a victory against Rogue Squadron, the Kshatriya is now being pitted up another threat from a totally different sci-fi. The Thor from Star Craft is faced off against Mobile Suit Gundam’s Kshatriya. The area of battle is a city flattened through nuclear strikes some years past. Can the Kshatriya survive this enormous, intimidating foe with it’s wall of fire power? Or will Marida claim victory?
Kshatriya is a mobile suit from Gundam Unicorn while Thor (not to be confused with deities of lightning) is a huge and powerful terran mechanical walker from the Starcraft Universe. While, being a Gundam (as far as I know), means the Kshatriya has flight advantage, the Thor looks like a completely scary creation.
Can the Gundam gain another non-factpile award victory if we were to believe what Sauroposeidon said? Of will Thor prove you don’t need a hammer to bring down the Lightning?
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FIRST!!!
but no, seriously, thor stomps
I AM THE THUNDERGOD!!!
AND I SHOOT, THUNDERBOLTS!!!
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Didn’t the Thor have a nuke in its arsenal?
@sauro (where ever you may be)
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where did you find that kshatriya picture?
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@hac148
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care to elaborate
@Hermit
Actually, that was the Odin, which is essentially the Thor on steroids. Considering I know next to nothing about the other side, my initial bet’s on the Thor, considering it’s about the only thing I can provide some feats for.
*sorry for double post*
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@hermit
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whats the yield on the thor’s nukes because the kshatriya is made out of gundarium and gundarium can stand up against nukes if I recall correctly
I felt bad after Kshatriya apparently stomped my favorite group outside of Blizzard Force in Star Wars.. so.. I decided to throw a big mofo at it. Have fun, folks.
@sauro
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you’re not…sticking around…since its you know…your match
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shouldn’t you like…help support the side nobody knows anything about?
…fine..e.e hold on.
Thor’s got Particle beams, javeline missiles, and 250mm strike cannons.
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If we use extra upgrades available in the game its got biosteel regenerating armor, 330mm strike cannons, and vanadium plating.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8h3pZ-NNGs
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Speed, durability, and fire power feats.
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Speed: Clearly demonstrated for the funnels to begin with, maneuverability of the funnels is exceedingly high. The Kshatriya is shown maneuvering around enemy fire later in the video. This is supported by Marida’s precog abilities.
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Durability: At the end of the video there is a scene where the Kshatriya survives falling a great distances and the following fuel tank explosions. There is another point before this where it tanks beam weaponry fired at it. It employs an ablative coating to stop energy attacks like that.
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Fire Power: The beam weaponry we see Kshatriya using are hitting Jegan mobile suits. These guys use Titanium on their frame and some of it I presume in their armor, with an unknown ceramic composite material composing what I think is most of the armor. Beam weaponry suffers enormous damage drop off when hitting water (I once saw a beam gun take longer to vaporize a human than it took to punch through a jegan. They aren’t even used in under water combat at all). So if the Thor has any big coolant tanks in it or something, they would work effectively as internal armor of sorts for a while.
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The Kshatriya stands 22.3 meters tall, and weighs in at, presumably, 74 tons. The pilot was bio-engineered to be a precog capable soldier/pilot. This should help kick start things. I can always post some of the old minovsky physics stuff if people are interested, although I openly admit that I have no idea how out dated and/or retconned that stuff is.
Don’t know much about the Kshatriya, but I think Thor wins. Also, I think there should be an Award (able to be challenged) for matches that one side has won, but aren’t Award worthy.
how heavily defended is the thor against energy weapon attacks
Oh and for the record, Akuma, the Kshatriya does have true flight, but it is not a gundam.
Wait, if its Heart of the Swarm Thor this should be a stomp.
In game stats from the Heart of The Swarm Thor have the cannons dealing 120 megajoules per shot.
Even after the video, im still unsure about the Kshatriya. The Thor (WoL) has 250mm cannons, particle beams, and javelin missile launchers.
starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Thor
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Initial bets on Thor, but not by much. If it was an Odin, it would be a much easier decision…
Sorry for double post, but for the armor, the Thor uses Neosteel. Its like steel, but much denser. Sadly, theres not much about it explained online, and the only feats on it I could find is that it holds up during faster-than-light travel.
starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Neosteel
“In game stats from the Heart of The Swarm Thor have the cannons dealing 120 megajoules per shot.”
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I think we need to gauge how capable the Thor is of hitting the Kshatriya before we begin going over its actual fire power. Also, while I haven’t yet had the chance to play SCII, I was under the impression these bad boys were mass produced and all of the same make, so all Thors would have the same weapons, more or less.
“In game stats from the Heart of The Swarm Thor have the cannons dealing 120 megajoules per shot.”
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Which cannons and how did you come to this conclusion? 120 megajoules is pretty sad even for a 250mm cannon from WW1, much less a 330mm cannon from WW2, to say nothing of one from the future.
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Personally I’m going with the Kshatriya for now. Much more mobile compared to the Thor which would make it hard to even track and bring the guns to bear on it. If pilots are taken into account it’ll be damn near impossible since Marida is psychic. It’s made of an alloy that isn’t even scratched by 120mm machine guns or 280mm bazookas. And it’s got a frankly excessive amount of firepower: 6 beam sabers, 12 mega particle cannons, 24 remotely controlled beam guns, and 2 beam vulcan cannons.
@ Sauro
The first Thor to be built was a monster they called the Odin.
Bigger than the standard model, it has a toliet for long-term missions and comes equipped with a nuke.
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By the way, does the Thor have a targeting system?
If not, just how powerful are its weapons? Are they such that even if they won’t hit the target is still damaged?
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And since we have a special pilot for the Kshatriya, why don’t we have one for the Thor as well, in the form of Tychus Findlay?
I read a short story where a hellion only comes up a third of the way up the Odin’s foot, so it’s quite a bit bigger than the Kshatriya. The thor shouldn’t be that much smaller. Given all gundams’ outrageous tonnage (one of the gundams we had on the site recently was 3 times the size of a tank and 1/3 the weight) the thor is going to be several times heavier. By all accounts it is much much slower than any gundam. This is where it fails. Gundams routinely pull off acrobatics that would make olympic gymnasts jealous and have the speed you would expect a space faring vehicle to have. I can’t see the thor getting a bead on one. Thors have dorsal cannons that look like battleship guns… which is strange because the only battleships we’re shown don’t have ballistic weapons at all… I don’t see it doing that much damage though. Gundams are immune to 120mm machine guns and barely scratched by 280mm bazookas. 360mm bazookas do moderate damage so if the thor has the 330mm cannon upgrade it could do some damage with a barrage (if it managed to hit with it).
Also Tychus is the last guy you want piloting anything. He’d never piloted a walker before that mission and his combined experience amounts to a couple hours, if that. I don’t think starcraft has a human pilot of Marida’s caliber. She is an ace pilot AND a telepath. Starcraft keeps their psychics and pilots separate for the most part.
The main problem is that the Kshatriya is an air mobile platform and while the Thor can engage air-borne targets, it’s only means of doing so would be missiles. These missiles would easily be dispatched by the funnels and beam weapons the Kshatriya carries.
“Which cannons and how did you come to this conclusion? 120 megajoules is pretty sad even for a 250mm cannon from WW1, much less a 330mm cannon from WW2, to say nothing of one from the future.”
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The 330mm cannons. I just figured since it deals 150 damage per shot in Heart of the Swarm, and since on the topia, a zealots shields can withstand 100 damage or 80 megajoules, that it deals 120 megajoules. BUT I realize now that I made a mistake, a zealot doesn’t have 10. It has 50 shields so it should really deal around 240 megajoules.
Soooo… game mechanics. Ya there’s a reason we take those with a grain of salt
I’m getting paramedic for this on 3:-), good luck trying to make the starcraft lose in this debate haha
the thor is something to be feared in the starcraft world, and especially in heart of the swarm, when in combat it has something called the “immortality protocol,” allowing a thor to repair itself in the field as long as its hull remains intact…. so if the gundam keeps on hitting and hitting, as long as some of the hull is intact it will be repairing itself. Now I rather not go by game mechanics…. but i will find some good quotes to help the thor out in this match.
With out understanding the nature of the self-repair system I suspect one would find it highly dubious that the Thor could keep such self-repairs sustained after suffering serious damage to vital systems.
In the campaign they use some zerg research for tech. The zerg regeneration is implemented into the armor.
starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Bio-steel
starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Thor (Immortality protocol)
So ultimately my point still stands. The Hull can not indefinitely repair judging from the mechanics of the Thor’s immortality protocol. You wreck the thing enough and it won’t ever get back up.
let me know when Kashy wins ;3
“So ultimately my point still stands. The Hull can not indefinitely repair judging from the mechanics of the Thor’s immortality protocol. You wreck the thing enough and it won’t ever get back up.”
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It gets restored to working condition and the bio-steel regenerates…
Marida could just aim for the cockpit and hope for the best.
“let me know when Kashy wins ;3″
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Obvious troll is obvious. Be nice Jhud.
@ Sauroposeidon
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that was the point
And now we wait for a few starcraft fans to show up. Great.
*whats the yield on the thor’s nukes because the kshatriya is made out of gundarium and gundarium can stand up against nukes if I recall correctly*
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Err, no, Gundarium never stand up against nuke
At best it can survive the radiation at a distance, but nuke remain one of the strongest weapon in Gundam history and even the lowest yield ones will destroy any Gundam not called Devil Gundam, Turn A Gundam or Turn X Gundam.
Gundarium is just a glorified name of Lunar Titanium.
Though this is ultimately irrelevant, as Thor standard load out does not include nukes
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For this match, I’m inclined to say Kshatriya due to better mobility and weapon capable of damaging Thor.
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Though, I’m not that knowledgeable about SC2 lore. Thor may actually win if its weaponry can pull a long-range air-bombard in lore, shooting down Kshatriya before it come into effective range.
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Keep in mind that in Gundam, MS only rise to power because Minosky Particle render long range auto-targeting systems nigh-useless. Without thousands of reactor dumping out tons of M-particle, MS can be taken down much easier by area-bombardment and tracking missile. Even if you take into account NT power, area bombardment is still a viable tactic, and massive amount of tracking missile will solve the problem of the pilot shooting or dodging them.
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i still think Kashy wins this. although a better match would be a covy super carrier vs the Ptolemaios II kai (from gundam 00: awaikening of the trailblazer).
@Riverlia
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Thought i should mention this but UC mobile suits are all equiped with “Minovsky-Type” Fusion Reactors allowing them to expel minovsky particles to a certain level… although only battleships and ewac-type mobile suits are capable of covering whole battlefields it should still allow Marida to play havoc on the Thor’s targeting systems
“Err, no, Gundarium never stand up against nuke
At best it can survive the radiation at a distance, but nuke remain one of the strongest weapon in Gundam history and even the lowest yield ones will destroy any Gundam not called Devil Gundam, Turn A Gundam or Turn X Gundam.
Gundarium is just a glorified name of Lunar Titanium.
Though this is ultimately irrelevant, as Thor standard load out does not include nukes”
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Yes it has, the original Gundam survived a nuclear mine field in Gundam Movie III, although outside of that, yeah, low yield nukes for gundam are ridiculously powerful considering the relative fragility of colonies. Not much will stand up to that.
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“i still think Kashy wins this. although a better match would be a covy super carrier vs the Ptolemaios II kai (from gundam 00: awaikening of the trailblazer).” Also, while the Alvatore does not qualify as a Gundam, it’s been shown to tank Libra’s main cannon in cross over cut scenes, unless it was enhanced in that game I’m pretty sure it could probably tank a nuke.
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On my grumpiest days I would not even pit the Eldar against that monster of monsters. You would need something ridiculously nasty on super robot levels of wtf to take on Celestial Being. Your suggestion is a clear and obvious stomp match. Please do not request that.
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“Thought i should mention this but UC mobile suits are all equiped with “Minovsky-Type” Fusion Reactors allowing them to expel minovsky particles to a certain level… although only battleships and ewac-type mobile suits are capable of covering whole battlefields it should still allow Marida to play havoc on the Thor’s targeting systems”
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Yes, intentionally polluting the system with minovsky particles is now a war crime, but despite this mobile suits remain useful. Even being in their area has obvious ECM impacts. Kshatriya is not exempt from this.
“On my grumpiest days I would not even pit the Eldar against that monster of monsters. You would need something ridiculously nasty on super robot levels of wtf to take on Celestial Being. Your suggestion is a clear and obvious stomp match. Please do not request that.
”
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My default suggestion is Megas, would that work?
My other suggestion is Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.
My final suggestion is Goku.
No, I think we have enough halo bashing on the site already.
“On my grumpiest days I would not even pit the Eldar against that monster of monsters. You would need something ridiculously nasty on super robot levels of wtf to take on Celestial Being. Your suggestion is a clear and obvious stomp match. Please do not request that.”
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What about the Ptolemaios 2 kai vs the Hiryu Kai from SRW OG?
*Yes it has, the original Gundam survived a nuclear mine field in Gundam Movie III, although outside of that, yeah, low yield nukes for gundam are ridiculously powerful considering the relative fragility of colonies. Not much will stand up to that.*
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That would be an outlier.
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To put things in perspective:
Even Gundarium MS can be cored with a single 0079 era beam shot. That’s why all Gundam in UC from Mk II onward forgoes armor in favor of speed and maneuverability.
In UC 0153, after UC verse had advance beam tech by leaps and bounces over 0079 (inventing beam shield, beam barriers, beam rotors and variable speed beam rifles), Uso managed to stop a battle ship that withstood copious amount of beam just by throwing a mook MS at it and shoot the suit’s reactor.
The explosion itself was nowhere near the level of the nuke employed in earlier UC eras.
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Hell, a single MS-carried nuke took out entire fleet in 0083. GP-02, the Gundam that launched the nuke was extremely well armored, with a thick shield, and was well out of the nuke’s effective zone, yet it was heavily damaged anyway.
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More evidents put nukes >>> Gundarium.
*What about the Ptolemaios 2 kai vs the Hiryu Kai from SRW OG?*
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Do they get the mechs associated with them?
“That would be an outlier.”
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It still happened. You can call it an outlier but you made a blanket claim. I only added on to it to clear something up.
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“Even Gundarium MS can be cored with a single 0079 era beam shot. That’s why all Gundam in UC from Mk II onward forgoes armor in favor of speed and maneuverability.”
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No, the Mk II was a test model, not intended to actually be sent out on to the field. Gundams are faster because their new and improved internals provide them with a far lighter and more flexible frame which can still achieve everything the old design also could. The next gundam the Federation made was a god damned fortress, and so was the one after that, the second psyco gundam was even bigger than the first. The AEUG’s Zeta Gundam, while I will admit was designed by a non-professional engineer, was also armored with Gundarium. Hell, the fuckin’ Rick Dias was originally going to be named Gundam Gamma BECAUSE it sported new and improved armor which surpassed the standard Luna Titanium used on the original V-Project mobile suits. While it is true that they continually grow faster and faster over time, it is wrong to say that they forgo their armor. Especially when the ZZ Gundam is best known for it’s FAZZ set up. Many mass produced models also sport Gundarium in their armor after a point, including AEUG’s mass produced GM rip-off, the Nemo. There is NOT a visible downgrade in armor, there is only a visible technological progression over time. They very best you can possibly claim is that gundarium replaced the old armor styles because it was so much lighter and allowed mobile suits to retain their already enormous levels of durability even if only relatively thin plates of it were used. The only time we see things lacking in armor are when we get test models which nobody thought would actually be getting shot at, such as the Gundam Mk.II and the Methuss, and even the Methuss has at least some gundarium, even with all the exposed joints, working parts, vents, ect.
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“Uso managed to stop a battle ship that withstood copious amount of beam just by throwing a mook MS at it and shoot the suit’s reactor.
The explosion itself was nowhere near the level of the nuke employed in earlier UC eras.”
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Reactors going off aren’t always that spectacular. Sometimes the right circumstances don’t always occur that allow the kinds of explosions that rip gaping holes a few city blocks in size in colony walls. Sometimes the escaping material just quickly vaporizes the whole mobile suit in a puff of pink or golden light.
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“Hell, a single MS-carried nuke took out entire fleet in 0083. GP-02, the Gundam that launched the nuke was extremely well armored, with a thick shield, and was well out of the nuke’s effective zone, yet it was heavily damaged anyway.”
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That nuke was very, very strong.
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“More evidents put nukes >>> Gundarium.”
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I actually never claimed that nukes can’t beat Gundarium, I simply made it clear that nukes don’t always beat Gundarium. In fact usually the only nukes we see going off are of incredible power. The GP02′s atomic bazooka can deliver enough power to put most other mechs down for the count, Gundam or otherwise. I repeat myself, you made a blanket claim, I corrected you, the yield on the nuke is important to consider. The GP02′s nuke, as you mentioned, was powerful enough to wipe out an entire fleet, and it was a claymore-like directional nuke, which means the GP02 itself was near ground zero.
And to elaborate on the battleship going down. You realize that beam-defending armor is ablative in Gundam, yes? If you cause a reactor to go off, it WILL eat through the ablative armor. There’s too much plasma in a concentrated point. The ship’s defenses were penetrated for exactly the same reason a mobile suit’s is when the reactor is hit.
*It still happened. You can call it an outlier but you made a blanket claim. I only added on to it to clear something up.*
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Do you have the video or quote saying it was nuke mines?
Because nuke is serious business even in UC, and mostly use as tactical weapons, not mines you leave floating around.
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*No, the Mk II was a test model, not intended to actually be sent out on to the field. Gundams are faster because their new and improved internals provide them with a far lighter and more flexible frame which can still achieve everything the old design also could.*
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Some suits are exception, but the mainstream units follow that philosophy.
And either way, Moveable Frame plus the focus on speed emerged specifically because taking a beam hit = dead MS, at least until they developed portable/360 degree I field and beam-shield.
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*The next gundam the Federation made was a god damned fortress, and so was the one after that, the second psyco gundam was even bigger than the first*
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Psyco is design as a fortress because it’s a special unit, so they can afford the cost to give it thick armor and I-field (which renders the issue of one-hit wonder moot). Mass producing such a large unit, each with I-field, however, is not a viable option.
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* The AEUG’s Zeta Gundam, while I will admit was designed by a non-professional engineer, was also armored with Gundarium*
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You are mistaking ‘forgoing armor’ and ‘use inferior armor material’
Armored in Gundarium does not mean anything. It’s just mean the mech use Lunar Titanium alloy. The material is superior to normal Titanium alloy, but the thickness was hardly comparable to One Year War designs.
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* Hell, the fuckin’ Rick Dias was originally going to be named Gundam Gamma BECAUSE it sported new and improved armor which surpassed the standard Luna Titanium used on the original V-Project mobile suits*
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Rick Dias started development before the completion of moveable frame, instead using Zeon old design concept (create an armored outer design first, instead of building an inner frame first).
Look at CAA and it’s easy to tell most units like Rick Dias have already been discontinued.
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* While it is true that they continually grow faster and faster over time, it is wrong to say that they forgo their armor. Especially when the ZZ Gundam is best known for it’s FAZZ set up*
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FAZZ is an artillery unit, and the amount of ordinances it carries hinder the mobility, hence the need for extra armor. if they could give it all those missile and gun while keeping a reasonable level of maneuverability, they won’t bother to add the armor at all.
Look at FA Unicorn. Not a piece of armor, just weapons and shields.
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Also, it can purge the armor to regain speed while engaging in medium-close range.
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* Many mass produced models also sport Gundarium in their armor after a point, including AEUG’s mass produced GM rip-off, the Nemo*
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Again, Gundarium = armor material, not armor thickness/weight, which is what got sacrificed by the philosophy ‘you die anyway, so we build your MS to dodge instead of tanking’
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* There is NOT a visible downgrade in armor, there is only a visible technological progression over time. They very best you can possibly claim is that gundarium replaced the old armor styles because it was so much lighter and allowed mobile suits to retain their already enormous levels of durability even if only relatively thin plates of it were used*
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You don’t seem to grasp what I was saying. The sacrifice in armor referred to its thickness, because usually beam weapon will ignore the extra armor; thus dodging is preferred to tanking, unless you can afford the money for a hulking unit like Psyco or The O.
Compare 0079 designs and CAA designs. The ratio in the latter is heavily skewer toward slimmer units.
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And beam > armor continue to be the truth even in Victory, even though the tires of Zanscare bike-theme units worked fairly well against beam, as the most effective defense against high-end beam weapons are high-end beam defense systems.
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*Reactors going off aren’t always that spectacular. Sometimes the right circumstances don’t always occur that allow the kinds of explosions that rip gaping holes a few city blocks in size in colony walls. Sometimes the escaping material just quickly vaporizes the whole mobile suit in a puff of pink or golden light.*
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The point is it’s weaker than early UC nukes.
And it’s actually spectacular, from an MS point of view. Uso was awed for a while.
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*That nuke was very, very strong.*
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GP02 is special because it’s designed to use tactical nuke, despite the treaty that banned nuke, not because the nuke is extra-powerful.
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*I actually never claimed that nukes can’t beat Gundarium, I simply made it clear that nukes don’t always beat Gundarium. In fact usually the only nukes we see going off are of incredible power. The GP02′s atomic bazooka can deliver enough power to put most other mechs down for the count, Gundam or otherwise. I repeat myself, you made a blanket claim, I corrected you, the yield on the nuke is important to consider. The GP02′s nuke, as you mentioned, was powerful enough to wipe out an entire fleet, and it was a claymore-like directional nuke, which means the GP02 itself was near ground zero.*
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GP 02 was completely out of the fire ball, and nuke is less effective in space.
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As for nuke yield. The first nuke in this world is already kilotons level, There is no point in consider something that cannot total a base at least.
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*And to elaborate on the battleship going down. You realize that beam-defending armor is ablative in Gundam, yes?*
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Beam coat was the ablative anti-beam method.
Zanscare empire use special tires (their MS and battleships all use motorcycle theme) to tank things.
“Do you have the video or quote saying it was nuke mines?
Because nuke is serious business even in UC, and mostly use as tactical weapons, not mines you leave floating around.”
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It’s in movie three where Amuro faces off against Char’s Gelgoog. It replaces the fight scene with the Gyan. Due to the mixed in new footage and the re-use of footage from the Gyan fight, though, it’s apparently difficult to find yield. It’s no where near the insanely powerful nukes we see get used later on in other Gundam series, though. The GP02, the destruction of Jaburo, and Bright’s attacks on Axis in CCA all make most nukes I’ve seen look like fire crackers, including the ones the Gundam tanked.
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“Some suits are exception, but the mainstream units follow that philosophy.
And either way, Moveable Frame plus the focus on speed emerged specifically because taking a beam hit = dead MS, at least until they developed portable/360 degree I field and beam-shield.”
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I believe your quote was all Gundam Mobile Suits, not all mobile suits, which is what I was specifically responding to.
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“Psyco is design as a fortress because it’s a special unit, so they can afford the cost to give it thick armor and I-field (which renders the issue of one-hit wonder moot). Mass producing such a large unit, each with I-field, however, is not a viable option. ”
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I don’t think it had an I-Field, but my response to this is, again, you brought up ever Gundam after the OYW continually goes for speed, when the very next Gundam meant for field use that the Federation built was heavily armored and slow.
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“Rick Dias started development before the completion of moveable frame, instead using Zeon old design concept (create an armored outer design first, instead of building an inner frame first).
Look at CAA and it’s easy to tell most units like Rick Dias have already been discontinued.”
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Being developed before movable frames does not exclude it from your statement. The Rick Dias was only made in limited numbers, I don’t know if any but a few museum pieces still survived to CCA.
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“Again, Gundarium = armor material, not armor thickness/weight, which is what got sacrificed by the philosophy ‘you die anyway, so we build your MS to dodge instead of tanking’”
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My argument is that they’re designed to be able to do both as well as they can while remaining cost effective.
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“GP02 is special because it’s designed to use tactical nuke, despite the treaty that banned nuke, not because the nuke is extra-powerful.”
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While it’s hard to judge the power of its nuke to others we’ve seen, I’m tempted to say it’s more powerful than many we’ve seen. The nuke’s fireball dwarfed Konpei Island, after all.
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“GP 02 was completely out of the fire ball, and nuke is less effective in space.”
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It was still right next to the damned thing.
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“Beam coat was the ablative anti-beam method.
Zanscare empire use special tires (their MS and battleships all use motorcycle theme) to tank things.”
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We have proof that their tires don’t just have extra thick layers of anti-beam coating? Anti-beam coating is almost never explicitly mentioned in any Gundam series but we know it’s there, such as the RX-78-2′s shield having it, but the term never even being used once in the original series.
*It’s in movie three where Amuro faces off against Char’s Gelgoog. It replaces the fight scene with the Gyan. Due to the mixed in new footage and the re-use of footage from the Gyan fight, though, it’s apparently difficult to find yield. It’s no where near the insanely powerful nukes we see get used later on in other Gundam series, though. The GP02, the destruction of Jaburo, and Bright’s attacks on Axis in CCA all make most nukes I’ve seen look like fire crackers, including the ones the Gundam tanked.*
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I’m asking about quote saying it’s nuke
Even if you say it’s movie 3, my CD was already toasted years ago, so i cant check it.
Consider that they can produce beam that punch right through Gundarium with just e-pack, why would they use nuke as mines instead of saving the resource for their tactical nukes?
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*I believe your quote was all Gundam Mobile Suits, not all mobile suits, which is what I was specifically responding to.*
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Even most subsequent Gundam follow the speed > armor philosophy.
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* don’t think it had an I-Field, but my response to this is, again, you brought up ever Gundam after the OYW continually goes for speed, when the very next Gundam meant for field use that the Federation built was heavily armored and slow.*
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Either I-field or full body beam coating. It certainly had full body anti-beam tech. Otherwise, just the armor alone wouldn’t be enough.
The point is in Gundam verse beam tech > armor tech, the shift from armor to speed oriented design was mentioned to support that.
Saying ‘all’ was an oversight on my part, but the main point stand.
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*Being developed before movable frames does not exclude it from your statement. The Rick Dias was only made in limited numbers, I don’t know if any but a few museum pieces still survived to CCA.*
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I was talking about the design philosophy, not the suit itself. Hence “line”.
For example, Guntank —> the Guntank in Igloo and Guntank MP is what I call the Guntank ‘line’
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In CAA, most MS no longer use the ‘design the outer armor first’ approach. They are designed from the frame out, to guarantee a focus on speed.
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*My argument is that they’re designed to be able to do both as well as they can while remaining cost effective.*
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Which has nothing with what I was saying, the general shift from favoring armor thickness to favoring speed.
===
*It was still right next to the damned thing*
—
It was still out of the fire ball, was armored especially for the task, with super thich shielding.
And it was heavily damaged.
Anything without those, getting caught in a nuke explosion = dead.
===
*We have proof that their tires don’t just have extra thick layers of anti-beam coating? Anti-beam coating is almost never explicitly mentioned in any Gundam series but we know it’s there, such as the RX-78-2′s shield having it, but the term never even being used once in the original series.*
—
Beam coat was mentioned in the profile whenever it was used on a unit in Victory. Such as Victory2 Assault.
So no.
Also, beam coating the tire of a land ship?
And yes, it actually use those tire to move.
@Riverlia
_
While its true that the speed > armor is part of the reason why armor thickness was reduced it isn’t the only reason. As was mentioned anti-beam coating was designed to protect mobile suits from beams weapons fire so extra armor was unnecessary. Additionally remember that MS design in the Z – ZZ period was towards transformable models (as it granted unassisted flight), and the transformation ability usually limited armor. If you look at certain suits such as the Byarlant, the Zaku III, the ZZ, and most designs of the 0093 era, armor thickness is still an integral part of MS development and its only foregoed in the later UC once beam shielding provided greater defense without raising cost… To summarize, it’s incorrect to mention that the reason thicker armor was dropped in MS design was merely because beam weapons had become a dominant force, when other factors such as cost, transformability, and the presence of direct counters to beam weapons also had a large impact.
_
“Do they get the mechs associated with them?”
_
Sure, since the machines are meant to be part of the vessels combat abilities. I was thinking that the Hiryu could make use of the ATX team instead of the Octo Squad since otherwise it’d just turn into the 00 soloing the Hiryu side on its own…
*While its true that the speed > armor is part of the reason why armor thickness was reduced it isn’t the only reason*
—
It was noted as the main reason they developed movable frame, which was the foundation for the slimmer designs and less armor.
—
And don’t forget, the reason speed become the new defense standard is beam weapon > armor.
===
*If you look at certain suits such as the Byarlant*
—
Byarlant bulky parts were the thrusters, to grant it unassisted flight and high mobility, not armor.
It actually follow the mobility/speed> defense formula, even sacrifice offensive power.
===
*the Zaku III*
—
Zaku III was Neo Zeon’s MS, designed similar to the old Zakus in an attempt to make it a symbol. Even then, to make it capable of competing with newer suits, they had to add a lot of extra thrusters to make up for the speed.
In the end, it still lost to the Doven Wolf in the MP race, seeing only limited production.
Doven Wolf also happened to be much more lightly armored. Capable of relative good maneuverability despite using much less thrusters.
===
* the ZZ*
—
ZZ looked bulky, but it was noted for being structural weak, one of the reason the Enhanced ZZ and FA ZZ featured additional armor platings.
They favored mobility offered by transforming system over structure stability.
===
*To summarize, it’s incorrect to mention that the reason thicker armor was dropped in MS design was merely because beam weapons had become a dominant force, when other factors such as cost, transformability, and the presence of direct counters to beam weapons also had a large impact.*
—
Direct counter to beam are only used on special units. You don’t see a RegZ using beam coat or I-field.
In fact, most unit with the ability to direct counter beam are large/armored units like the MAs, Geymark, Psyco, etc.
That’s because with the threat from beam gone, armor is once again the viable option (and a few extra centimeters of armor is cheaper than thrusters)
—
Without direct counter to beam, speed is the bench-mark. Even the heavily armored MSs are designed with extra thrusters to make up for the extra weight.
—
Cost is of course a factor, but it’s precisely because beam > armor, and beam was becoming more dominant, the most common solution to cut cost is reducing armor thus increase speed, as it ensure the pilot survivability more than the other way around.
===
*Additionally remember that MS design in the Z – ZZ period was towards transformable models (as it granted unassisted flight)*
—
Transformable MS indeed get unassisted flight. But that was not the only reason they developed transformable suit.
It’s because a transformable unit is fast, mobile and does not have to sacrifice offensive power.
As long as these conditions are satisfied, they considered the lack of armor acceptable.
—
Sentinel Gundam novel spelled out that before the units based on Zeta and ZZ were created, such extreme speed and mobility with that kind of fire power were totally unheard of. To the point they discarded the possibility and dismissed it as myth.
Cue the FAZZ and Zeta Plus breaking through the line.
===
*Sure, since the machines are meant to be part of the vessels combat abilities. I was thinking that the Hiryu could make use of the ATX team instead of the Octo Squad since otherwise it’d just turn into the 00 soloing the Hiryu side on its own…*
—
Teleportation aside, Rein Weiss make 00 Quan[t] look slow, even to the point it can speed-clone itself (not just after image).
Alteisen Riese some how managed to beat Rein plus a gang of Einst, all by itself.
Then we have Ryukooh..
And Vysaga
“Teleportation aside, Rein Weiss make 00 Quan[t] look slow, even to the point it can speed-clone itself (not just after image).
Alteisen Riese some how managed to beat Rein plus a gang of Einst, all by itself.
Then we have Ryukooh..
And Vysaga”
_
Well under normal circumstances Kusuha and Bullet only make use of a Grungust Type-3 (since the Kouryuoh/Ryukooh are normally sealed due to their power), additionally Lamia’s currently assigned to the new Aggressors under Kai, so while the ATX team may have the power advantage the number difference should help make it a bit fairer…
“Even if you say it’s movie 3, my CD was already toasted years ago, so i cant check it.
Consider that they can produce beam that punch right through Gundarium with just e-pack, why would they use nuke as mines instead of saving the resource for their tactical nukes?”
-
Char either says “nuclear mine field” or “atomic mine field” if I recall. It doesn’t matter why they had the mine field there to begin with, but I suspect it was to destroy the Gundam, since no mobile suits in space at that point in time short of Char’s Gelgoog had a beam rifle. It failed to destroy the Gundam, though.
-
“Even most subsequent Gundam follow the speed > armor philosophy.”
-
You could not possibly be more wrong. Just looking at the Federation we can clearly see from the units they designed to be put in the field, the very next gundam design was Psyco, then Psyco II, both of which favor tanking over speed. Following this is the Nu Gundam, and if we assume it’s anywhere near as well protected as the Sazabi then we know it has sufficient beam protection to stop a handful of grunt mobile suit beam shots. After that is the Unicorn, which has a full fledged frickin’ I-Field, and then the F-91 has two enormous beam shields on it. Gundams have ALWAYS been built to be able to tank what’s thrown at them. Looking at AEUG we see the Rick Dias, again, specializing in armor, and then the Zeta Gundam, armed with new Gundarium armor and Zeta Gundam, even on the far lighter movable frame still out weighs the original gundam, with a much heavier shield, clearly heavier armor as well. Following that, again, the ZZ, which once again is best known for it’s full armor form. Gundams NEVER forgo armor unless nobody expects anyone to actually shoot at it. They may specialize in speed and have less armor than other gundams, but they are are always packing more armor than most other mobile suits. They are always designed to tank a shit ton of fire power that’s thrown at them, be it conventional or beam weaponry. Do not pretend like just because beams showed up everybody said “Well fuck armor, I want speed!” Speed just became a more important factor than it was previously. You CAN NOT prove, at all, that they were designed primarily to dodge, and that armor was only an after thought. Your statement that every gundam mobile suit forgos armor in favor of speed is -wrong-.
-
“Either I-field or full body beam coating. It certainly had full body anti-beam tech. Otherwise, just the armor alone wouldn’t be enough.
The point is in Gundam verse beam tech > armor tech, the shift from armor to speed oriented design was mentioned to support that.
Saying ‘all’ was an oversight on my part, but the main point stand.”
-
It’s got anti-beam armor, using that ablative coating, which whether you feel it qualifies as armor or not does not negate it from being a kind of armor.
-
“Some suits are exception, but the mainstream units follow that philosophy.
And either way, Moveable Frame plus the focus on speed emerged specifically because taking a beam hit = dead MS, at least until they developed portable/360 degree I field and beam-shield.”
-
They did have anti-beam shields. Usually the expensive anti-beam material was applied to the shield on grunt units. Although the material appears to be subject to technological development as well, seeing as older forms of it were less capable of stopping as many beams as later applications of it were.
-
“Which has nothing with what I was saying, the general shift from favoring armor thickness to favoring speed.”
-
No no, you said forgos armor in favor of speed. You did not say armor thickness, that’s moving the goal posts. We already know you don’t need nearly as much gundarium to get the same level of protection that the old armor had, so naturally we’d assume that the armor is thinner than before on mass produced models simply due to the nature of the armor material they’re using. What your statement implies is they neglected their level of armor protection in favor of speed, when this is usually not the case.
-
“Beam coat was mentioned in the profile whenever it was used on a unit in Victory. Such as Victory2 Assault.
So no.
Also, beam coating the tire of a land ship?
And yes, it actually use those tire to move.”
-
I’m pretty sure the tech specs don’t list it on the Gundam’s shield, or didn’t for a long time, and we still know it was there. I’m inclined to believe that the tires were built with ablative anti-beam materials unless something else can be confirmed.
-
“Teleportation aside, Rein Weiss make 00 Quan[t] look slow, even to the point it can speed-clone itself (not just after image).
Alteisen Riese some how managed to beat Rein plus a gang of Einst, all by itself.
Then we have Ryukooh..
And Vysaga”
-
Alteisen line is a shitty mech and you know it. It’s because of the pilot, not the mech. The mech itself is about as maneuverable as a brick, and has a hard time doing anything. The bigger version I don’t remember much about but I know Alteisen was specifically impossible to control for most pilots due to it’s lack of being able to handle its own weight. The Rein Weiss could be difficult to deal with but once Allelujah/Hallelujah get going they should put up a good fight against it.
“Alteisen line is a shitty mech and you know it. It’s because of the pilot, not the mech. The mech itself is about as maneuverable as a brick, and has a hard time doing anything. The bigger version I don’t remember much about but I know Alteisen was specifically impossible to control for most pilots due to it’s lack of being able to handle its own weight. The Rein Weiss could be difficult to deal with but once Allelujah/Hallelujah get going they should put up a good fight against it.”
_
The Alteisen was designed to charge units straight through, it’s overall design makes it a hard mech to maneuver and its acceleration was so high it caught even Kyosuke by surprise. The upgraded Reise was even more of a nightmare to pilot since instead of covering the machines weaknesses they added more armor, claymores, and thrusters to the point the machine needs a flight unit just to stand upright. Both machines also emphasize melee combat, with only the claymores (which are short-mid range at most) and the machine cannons (essentially useless) providing any range ability. In essence it’s not just a brick, it’s a brick with rocket boosters that can’t maneuver to save its life, and has a sharp ends attached to impale you.
*You could not possibly be more wrong. Just looking at the Federation we can clearly see from the units they designed to be put in the field, the very next gundam design was Psyco, then Psyco II, both of which favor tanking over speed.*
—
Issue already addressed. Beam protection make the issue of beam > armor moot, allowing Psyco line to favor armor. They fall into the ‘unique units’ category, not the general direction.
===
*Following this is the Nu Gundam, and if we assume it’s anywhere near as well protected as the Sazabi then we know it has sufficient beam protection to stop a handful of grunt mobile suit beam shots.*
—
Its beam protection is I-field, which require its Fin Funnels to use.
When its Fin Funnel are on the offensive, Nu use mostly agility to dodge.
===
*After that is the Unicorn, which has a full fledged frickin’ I-Field, and then the F-91 has two enormous beam shields on it. Gundams have ALWAYS been built to be able to tank what’s thrown at them.*
—
I don’t know what you are trying to prove.
—
1. Gundam are not mean to tank. They are given layers of protection because they need to unit to survive, being expensive prototype and all, but they still rely mainly on dodging.Even Victory 2, with quad-layers protection (I field + beam coat + Beam shield/normal shield + WOL) only tank when it was forced to, instead opting for dodging.
—
2. Yes, they eventually developed counter against beam weapons, just like beam weapon also evolve to negate those defense (beam shield, meet VSBR).Never said there are no defense against it.
—
3. That have nothing to do with the fact that beam > Gundarium armor, and the wide used of beam weapons influenced designers to favor high speed over extra armor unless the Gundam/MS had something like I-field.
Yes, if they can have both defense and high speed, they will go for it, but if they cannot, speed is favored.
===
*Looking at AEUG we see the Rick Dias, again, specializing in armor*
—
Already addressed.
===
*and then the Zeta Gundam, armed with new Gundarium armor and Zeta Gundam, even on the far lighter movable frame still out weighs the original gundam, with a much heavier shield, clearly heavier armor as well.*
—
Empty weight
Zeta: 28.7 tons
Gundam: 43.4 tons
===
*Following that, again, the ZZ, which once again is best known for it’s full armor form.*
—
ZZ is know for having unstable structure thank to the transformable mechanism. Enhanced and Full Armored form had to add extra armor plating to fix this problem.
And I already addressed why FAZZ is armored like that.
===
*Gundams NEVER forgo armor unless nobody expects anyone to actually shoot at it.*
—
Zeta “I can transform who care about armor*
Double Zeta “I can transform who care about being structurally weak*
F91 *Hey I’m shedding my outer armor to make after image*
—
Having defenses against beam =/= favoring tanking over dodging.
You seem to assume ‘speed over armor’ mean they stop creating defensive system altogether.
—
Also, beam shield act no different from shield, except it weight next to nothing, can regenerate after they got cut, and can be penetrated by VSBR. It’s not a sign of tank-centric unit.
===
*They may specialize in speed and have less armor than other gundams, but they are are always packing more armor than most other mobile suits.*
—
Whoever said they have less armor than other MS? I said the design trend shifted to favor speed over armor.
And no, actually, sometime MP unit have more armor.
===
*They are always designed to tank a shit ton of fire power that’s thrown at them, be it conventional or beam weaponry.*
—
They are designed to survive, being mostly Ace Custom and Prototype.
And speed + responsive maneuver is considered extremely important in that ‘survive’ part.
There is a reason Bio Sensor, Psyco Frame, Minosky Drive, Alice, Exam system, Bio Computer and shit load of similar things were developed, one after another.
===
*Do not pretend like just because beams showed up everybody said “Well fuck armor, I want speed!” Speed just became a more important factor than it was previously.You CAN NOT prove, at all, that they were designed primarily to dodge, and that armor was only an after thought. Your statement that every gundam mobile suit forgos armor in favor of speed is -wrong-.*
—
1.I said “all” was presumptious of me a few post back. So ‘every’ is wrong.
—
2.”In favor of” is not the same as “That’s all they have”.
—
3. Most of the defensive system you mentioned here is not armor and does not affect speed much, so while they can forgoes armor in favor of speed, they have no reason to forgoes those.
—
4. Nobody said they are built solely for speed. They are build to test new systems or armaments and make Aces more effective, what with being Prototype and custom unit. I said the design favor speed.
—
So, congrat on disproving something completely different from my point.
-
*It’s got anti-beam armor, using that ablative coating, which whether you feel it qualifies as armor or not does not negate it from being a kind of armor.*
—
The point was that it could favor armor over speed because it had full body-anti beam method.
—
Also, you seem to regard everything defensive ‘armor’
Defensive system is not armor.
Gundarium plating is armor.
Beam coat is just like its name, a coat of matter you paint on top of the unit armor, not an integral part of said armor. You don’t see Magnetic coating being referred as a part of RX-78-2 armor.
—
Ablative Armor would be something like Battle tech armor.
===
*No no, you said forgos armor in favor of speed. You did not say armor thickness, that’s moving the goal posts. We already know you don’t need nearly as much gundarium to get the same level of protection that the old armor had, so naturally we’d assume that the armor is thinner than before on mass produced models simply due to the nature of the armor material they’re using. What your statement implies is they neglected their level of armor protection in favor of speed, when this is usually not the case.*
—
When they accept less thickness on plating and sometime structural weak unit in favor of thrust/weight ratio or transformation system, as well as gradually phase out armor-heavy design like doms and rick-dias, that’s “forgoes armor in favor of speed”.
If they have better armor material, they can easily make unit with similar thickness for superior defense instead of thinning it. But the armor become thinner instead. That’s a sign of “forgoes armor in favor of speed”
—
You are extrapolating it to mean “no defense or armor whatsoever, just speed”, which is not what I meant.
===
*I’m pretty sure the tech specs don’t list it on the Gundam’s shield, or didn’t for a long time, and we still know it was there. I’m inclined to believe that the tires were built with ablative anti-beam materials unless something else can be confirmed.*
—
1. Beam resistance coating (not anti-beam coating) was only designed/developed and applied to the MS-07B3 Gouf Custom. ABC is totally new technology in Zeta, with the Hyakushiki being the first to have it.
So no, ‘we still know it was there’ is totally wrong. They did not have ABC on the RX 78-2 or the Zaku.
2. If we accept your reasoning, that mean vs debate will be based on guess work along the line of “I thought it had something never mentioned in its canon spec, so it must be there”
===
===
*Alteisen line is a shitty mech and you know it. It’s because of the pilot, not the mech. The mech itself is about as maneuverable as a brick, and has a hard time doing anything. The bigger version I don’t remember much about but I know Alteisen was specifically impossible to control for most pilots due to it’s lack of being able to handle its own weight.
—
1. Alt is not maneuverable, but its charging speed is second to none, with high offensive power.
2. Alteisen Riese =/= Alteisen. It charge faster, has enough fire power to pwn units with regenerative power, and beat a Super Robot like Soul Gain.
3. We are using ATX team, not random pilot using Alteisen. So the feat of defeating Rein + many Einst apply.
===
*The Rein Weiss could be difficult to deal with but once Allelujah/Hallelujah get going they should put up a good fight against it.**
—
I doubt Allelujah have the speed to clone itself, with all clone capable of firing/attacking.
At the same time no less, or move between the clones’ positions and fire so fast it look like at the same time.
So before he can flip the trans arm switch, he get like a dozen beam shooting at him.
Heck, look at the animation of E-mode Howling Launcher, Rein alone can replicate beam spam on the level of the entire human force in 00 Movie.
—
Unassuming Real Robots in SRW, with the right pilots, are insanely overpower.
Point in case, the R-Blade with nothing more than extra armor and a pair of spread beam cannon can fight on par with a time-space distorting command unit of Balmar, in canon events. To drive the point home. Ryusei by that point hasn’t recovered his PsycoDriver power.
“2. Alteisen Riese =/= Alteisen. It charge faster, has enough fire power to pwn units with regenerative power, and beat a Super Robot like Soul Gain.”
_
Although I agree with your description of Reals in OG and not underestimating the Alt i though i should mention that the only time in OG 2 units are mentioned to beat out regenerating enemies are the Dygenguar and SRX… Although in game Alt can definitely do its, thats a moot point since any mech with enough upgrades and valor will. Also an interesting bit, in the OG games Kyousuke fights Axel with support, while in the Insperctors anime the fight is never finished…
*Although I agree with your description of Reals in OG and not underestimating the Alt i though i should mention that the only time in OG 2 units are mentioned to beat out regenerating enemies are the Dygenguar and SRX… Although in game Alt can definitely do its, thats a moot point since any mech with enough upgrades and valor will. *
—
Soul Gain can regenerate. Some Einst mook can also regen.
===
*Also an interesting bit, in the OG games Kyousuke fights Axel with support, while in the Insperctors anime the fight is never finished…*
—
As far as I remember, dialogues suggested Riese was the one mainly responsible for fighting Soul Gain.
“Soul Gain can regenerate. Some Einst mook can also regen.”
_
Although thats true story-wise the regen ability of the soulgain doesnt seem to campare to the one the Reggiseur or Machine Cells grant. Soulgains regen ability, although above average in-game doesnt seem to compare to what other bosses can do (from a story point). This is arguably proven in Inspectors where the Soulgain loses the regen ability altogether, along with every “ki” attack that wasnt seiryurin (which was made a short range move).
_
“As far as I remember, dialogues suggested Riese was the one mainly responsible for fighting Soul Gain.”
_
Dialogue-wise at least Lamia also participated in the fight… From a story standpoint it’s hard to believe that Kyousuke could overpower Axel on his own. Axel was a skilled fighter already, but he also has experience fighting Beowulf. Even in Inspectors the fight would have ended in defeat if not for Kyousuke (somehow) realizing Axel was gonna blow the Alts hands off, and even after that it wasn’t decided, even though most of the Soulgains abilities were taken out, it still took everything Kyousuke had to keep up.
*Although thats true story-wise the regen ability of the soulgain doesnt seem to campare to the one the Reggiseur or Machine Cells grant. Soulgains regen ability, although above average in-game doesnt seem to compare to what other bosses can do (from a story point). This is arguably proven in Inspectors where the Soulgain loses the regen ability altogether, along with every “ki” attack that wasnt seiryurin (which was made a short range move).*
—
Inspector is non-canon (as some events in it contradicted the game, and there is only one Helios in SRWverse, so it cannot be an AU either). Soul Gain was hardly the only one who got nerfed. HTB canon is underwhelming compare to the game.
Soul Gain regen is of course inferior to Machine Cell and Regisseur, but he can nevertheless, and Riese sheer fire power was able to overwhelm that.
===
*Dialogue-wise at least Lamia also participated in the fight*
—
I’m not talking about the fight inside White Start, but the fight right outside it. Kyosuke damaged Axel badly and was about to finished him off, but Echidna took the blow for him.
Speaking of which, Soul Gain going from badly damaged to battle ready in the short time it took the party to go into the White Start is a good feat for it’s regeneration.
” HTB canon is underwhelming compare to the game.”
_
And how exactly did you want them to animate the games HTB cannon without dooming their solar system… It’s true though that the HTB was nerfed badly (to the point it even lost the “disintegration” effect it had in Alpha and the GBA games). The anime in general nerfed almost everyone except for the Alteisen, but damnit I can accept that since we got double blade kick and the Bakuasai-ken.
_
“I’m not talking about the fight inside White Start, but the fight right outside it. Kyosuke damaged Axel badly and was about to finished him off, but Echidna took the blow for him.
Speaking of which, Soul Gain going from badly damaged to battle ready in the short time it took the party to go into the White Start is a good feat for it’s regeneration.”
_
If it’s that fight remember that both Axel and the Soulgain had spent a considerable amount of time fighting endless Einst waves, additionally the Soulgain wasn’t heavily damaged so much as Kyosuke had broken through his guard (which is what he does best). The Soulgain was still operational and could fight back, however Axel retreats at Echidna’s urging. Additionally the time spent for the Soulgain to regenerate is longer than it seems as the Kurogane and Hiryu teams had enough break time to restore their units to working order as well in additiion to breaking trough the White Stars defences. The battle in the White Star was fairly long as a whole, remember that the Cry Wolves launched after the teams penetrated the White Star’s defences and made it in time to recover the damaged Soulgain.
…I’m not even going to bother reviewing the discussion, I already see Einst and Soulgain mentioned, which means in the time I’ve been gone the discussion over super robot wars is still on going, and probably 00 Gundam as well. Neither of which have anything to do with either opponent in this match. Please take it to the forums. We can’t harp on people like Cross when he does this if we do it ourselves.
“…I’m not even going to bother reviewing the discussion, I already see Einst and Soulgain mentioned, which means in the time I’ve been gone the discussion over super robot wars is still on going, and probably 00 Gundam as well. Neither of which have anything to do with either opponent in this match. Please take it to the forums. We can’t harp on people like Cross when he does this if we do it ourselves.”
_
You bring up a good point sir… You gotta admit the discussion was already partially derailed though with the whole gundarium cant tank nukes thing, since it was already mentioned only the prototype Thor (The Odin) carries nukes. In that respect I’d say the Thor’s goose is cooked since it wont be able to keep up with the Kshatriya…
If the Odin packs nukes, I’m guessing their sufficiently powerful enough to wreck Kshatriya if it’s at ground zero, but it’s not, because this isn’t the Odin. I have to admit the cockpit shot idea really took me off guard, though. Do we have anyone here familiar enough with Star Craft who can tell us what the cockpit armoring is? Or if that’s.. just glass?