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This is a composite Dune vs Warhammer 40k
No gods
This is a conquest match, in which both parties are equally try to take over each over, whilst keeping as much of the enemy infrastructure intact as possible.
Which side would win?
Initial bets on Warhammer 40k, I don’t recall anyone ever pimping out Dune’s fighting prowess.
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first?
I like the retaining of enemy infrastructure.
YES! Oh well. Didn’t notice the ‘keep enemy infrastructure’ thing. I think this is a lose-lose, because win or lose the Imperium is probably going to have MASSIVE collateral (or intentional) damage on infrastructure.
Dune wins this handily unless the Necrons are up to the challenge. (Also, the only factions with real infrastructure are the Tau, Eldar, and Imperium. Doesn’t that mean Dune needs only defeat them?)
Most powerful weapons I know of Dune Possessing are the Stone Burners of the Honored Matres, which can destroy a world. But when it comes to population and general firepower, I’m pretty sure 40K beats dune in all respects except for perhaps the Machine Empire.
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Still, Face Dancers could be pretty useful, and Presience given through spice could be a good tactical advantage.
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What are the Eras here? Is this the Old Butlerian Jihad Era? Sandworms of Dune? Corrino Dynasty? Composite?
The point of a conquest match is that you can’t fly up to you enemies planets and turn them all into molten slag, you must fight to take them over.
Take in all the aspects that would involve, from fleets stationed in orbit if the world is a high enough priority, planetary defence systems, and any ground forces based on the planet, how long it would take to recieve reinforcements.
Realism is the key word, in a conquest match.
“What are the Eras here? Is this the Old Butlerian Jihad Era? Sandworms of Dune? Corrino Dynasty? Composite?”
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It says Composite right in the match description.
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Also, I believe Dune’s nuclear weapons are capable of destroying planets.
Dune is comprised of all the elements of its series from the bulterian jihad to the Duncan Idaho controlled machine empire.
Well in this Case, Face Dancers and No-Ships work very handily for infiltration. And Sardaukar and Neo-Cymeks, The Titans, and Honored Matres are pretty efficient warriors.
Whoa….akel still posts here. Good to see ya man lol.
Additionally, I believe Guild Navigation Via Holtzman drives may be faster than Warp Travel, and more reliable as well.
“Additionally, I believe Guild Navigation Via Holtzman drives may be faster than Warp Travel, and more reliable as well.”
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I wish Herbet had clarified more on the power of the average Lasgun and other such weapons.
“Whoa….akel still posts here. Good to see ya man lol.”
Just returned like three days ago. Great to be back, even if I’m still a bit of a dolt.
@Akelz
Great to see you too!
@Warmaster Shaun
I knew this match was gonna happen sooner or later, it just felt sooner than I thought(well relatively speaking compared to a lot of the other cases!)
Let the Badassery Begin!!!!(Then we await Skywalker vs Paul Atreides, as well!)
Just pointing out, when a Dune lasgun hits an energy shield you get something akin to a nuclear explosion. If this applies to 40k lasguns, I detect a whole lotta mutual destruction…
Dune does have nukes that can destroy a planet, but that obviously isn’t being allowed here. The FTL that Dune has is also instantaneous teleportation, so that is a major advantage. But I don’t know if they have the numbers to fight 40k. Maybe they do, as I’m pretty sure they covered a vast number of galaxies, but I don’t think any hard numbers were given.
Well with Warhammer united, we have the Choas Gods and GEOM united… that… I’m afraid. I KNOW it’s fictional… but I’m afraid of them…
@Akelz
We got a fleet behind me where you can join in on the evac, if you like!
Match describation says No Gods.
The Dunes instant FTL does give them an speed advantage, but the fight to take a planet will be enormous.
@Warmaster Shaun
For the sake of old times, care to explain where to begin with the militaries of both sides?
“The Dunes instant FTL does give them an speed advantage, but the fight to take a planet will be enormous.”
According to the Flood, Zerg, and Tryanids vs. GE, IoM, Peacekeepers, Goual’uld, UNSC, and Terran Dominion (spelling errors abound I know), there are some several million troops per planet.
Oh and hey again @CC… ‘I appreciate ever familiar face… and still want to know what happened to Kenny C….
Numbers wise, during the bulterian jihad trillions of humans died, in their war against the machines, and by the time the corrino empire fell humanity had expanded further greatly due the use of the holtzman drive.
The Corrinos ruled over a million worlds, the number of human colonised worlds must have expanded after the time of the scattering.
@Akelz
Kenny the Deathtanker may pay the site another visit on the ‘morrow, but we have a major fight to discuss, so unless you’re gonna evac, I find it best we get back to the main combat at hand, alright?
@CC
Wait he’s named… Deathtanker? Huh.
How is the average ground troop in Dune vs. the average Imperial Troop? What can beat the Space Marines/Chaos Marines? Are the Primarchs allowed?Can Dune handle the Tyranids? What about the previously mentioned Necrons? What about the other various Warhammer 40k factions that usually get individual matches?
The number of troops per planet for the IoM, ranges greatly from high billions in the form of a fortress world like Cadia, to a handful of savages on black powder level technology worlds, a hive world like Thracian Primaris, the capital of its sector, had a standing planetary defence force of eight million men under arms.
@Warmaster
Those numbers are already over 9000, are they not?
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“Dune does have nukes that can destroy a planet, but that obviously isn’t being allowed here.”
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Why not? Just because they can’t blow up infrastructure planets doesn’t mean they can’t just blow up Ork, Tyranid, and Necron planets and every warship at WH40k’s disposal.
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“How is the average ground troop in Dune vs. the average Imperial Troop? ”
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Dune has personal shields and lasguns that make WH40k lasguns look like toy lasers.
Here is an example of a military force in dune
dune.wikia.com/wiki/Sardaukar
@Warmaster Shaun
Wasn’t it said according to internet legend that the 40K Space Marines were expies of the Sardaukar?
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Apparently the people at games workshop, where partly inspired by the saudaukar, when creating the adeptus astartes, but it wasn’t just space marines, that Frank Herbert inspired, the entire idea of feudalism in space, was his creation as well.
@Warmaster Shaun
You don’t say!
I recalled Star Wars’s descriptions as we know them today taking direct nods from Dune, which in turn took direct nods from the Lensmen series(whose introducer’s name eludes me right now!) and now here we are today, right?
Psykers in particular also have common grounds with Lensmen, even Magic users from the Potter-world or the Dresden Files may have common grounds with Lensmen via varying degrees(albeit the former’s Modern cases are lower-tiered compared to the latter, but still…) to add to the Mobile Suit Gundam Newtypes to the mix…leads to a Tartarus of a mindblowing discussion all on its own, wouldn’t it?
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Where to begin on Dune’s response to the Psykers that were pre-meditated?
Isn’t Norma Cenva (Dune) essentially a god, able to transport any ship into another universe/dimension where effectively they pose no threat?
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Beyond that, if no ‘Gods’ (Chaos or Dune ‘Gods’) are allowed then Paul Mua’Dib’s multi-galaxy spanning complete prescience and the Spacing Guilds instant FTL travel combined with the use of Stone Burners:
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“Paul remained silent, thinking what this weapon implied. Too much fuel in it and it’d cut its way into the planet’s core. Dune’s molten level lay deep, but the more dangerous for that. Such pressures released and out of control might split a planet, scattering lifeless bits and pieces through space.”
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Or their planet busting torpedoes whose name escapes me at the moment.
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Given the Necrons post new codex Ward-nerf, doesn’t intstant FTL + Norma Cenva + Planet Busting = Dune win?
The Lensmen were also the inspiration for modern Green Lantern corps.
This isn’t an extermination variant match, but a conquest, the dune side isn’t seeking to obliterate the Warhammer universe but to conquer it, so that can’t just destroy every planet with stone burners.
“This isn’t an extermination variant match, but a conquest, the dune side isn’t seeking to obliterate the Warhammer universe but to conquer it, so that can’t just destroy every planet with stone burners.”
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They can destroy every ship and Ork, Tyranids and Necrons though. WH40k is just outmatched here. Really, it makes no sense for them to want to keep any of WH40k’s infrastructure. Dune doesn’t exactly have any need for it. Besides, once WH40k realizes how outmatched they are I would think they’d just surrender.
ORKZ IZ MADE FOR FIGHTIN’
Infrastructure? Wotz dat?
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Does keeping infrastructure intact include disassembling them and reassembling them as ramshackle warmachines painted in red? lol
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To put it simply W40K loses because most of their extreme horde powerhouses lose this for them because they don’t know the meaning of infrastructure, nor the concept of intact…
The Orks would take them apart, the Tyranids would scour the planet clean and crack the mantle of the planet to feed, and Emperor-alone knows what Chaos would do….
Sardaukar were pretty badass in their heyday. A single Brigade of the Guys (about 300) were estimated to be able to annihilate a fellow force of double digit thousands of Harkonnen Troops if they had wanted to. Everybody was afraid of the guys. They were at their least skill equal to a Level 10 Ginaz Swordsmaster (some of the best swordsmen in the universe).
Here’s a theoretical image of some, because this one fits better with my own vision of what they looked like, and I abhorred the Lynch and Syfy designs: browse.deviantart.com/?qh=§ion=&global=1&q=Sardaukar#/dx90nz
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Cymeks like the Titans are also massively powerful and immortal, and the leader of the Machine Empire, Omnius, is capable of starting an entire war machine just from single probes landing on planets, so its next to impossible to get rid of him-He’s kind of like Skynet, but more Competent
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Fremen are even more deadly than the Sardaukar, on account of their religious fervor, and the fact that they live on a desert planet populated by giant worms that can grow to be miles long that are attracted to anything with rhythm.
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Bene Gesserits are a sisterhood of behind the scenes tactical witches, who are always connected to (and are commonly behind) every major event that occurs in the universe. They can force men to do their bidding through the Voice, and are masters of deception, and can make you their slave via sexual imprinting.
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Honored Matres are what happens when you mix Sardaukar and Bene Gesserit. They are militaristic, brutal, warriors that seek to dominate the universe. They are far more adept at combat than their cousin’s the Gesserit, and don’t need Melange to use their talents. They also are even better at seduction than the Witches, and they seem to possess a limitless supply of Stone Burners.
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Tleilaxu are a race of mutated dwarf humans that have become master geneticists. They are cunning, totally amoral, and can do just about anything you can do with genes and DNA. But by far their greatest achievements are the Ghola and the Face Dancer. A Ghola is a clone of a being, which is then forced via extreme psychological trauma to regain all of the memories of its past life. Through a Ghola, a person is effectively Immortal. Face Dancers are a offshoot race of the Tleilaxu, which possess the unique ability to imitate any being after physical contact. The also gain all knowledge and personality traits of the being they imitate. They are completely loyal, and highly adaptive.
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The rest of Mankind is pretty average overall as far as most things go.
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“Dune has personal shields and lasguns that make WH40k lasguns look like toy lasers.”
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In fairness, the vast vast majority of the 40K universe makes Lasguns look like toys. There’s a reason they’re called flashlights by fans and in-canon people alike.
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“Does keeping infrastructure intact include disassembling them and reassembling them as ramshackle warmachines painted in red? lol”
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Given that when an Ork disassembles something and puts it back together, its generally just as functional as before (albeit with orky “improvements” like a self destruct button for a doorbell), sure. Same goes for chaos. Just because your walls have started bleeding doesn’t mean they’re any less structurally sound, and when you’re got spore chimneys sprouting up all around, its nice to have some solid plascrete or heavy rock formations to have in case of a return assault.
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“Really, it makes no sense for them to want to keep any of WH40k’s infrastructure.”
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Everyone likes new tech, regardless of its origin. there will be something of 40K’s worth stealing, even if its nowhere but the Eldar homeworlds, Necron worldships and Tyranid genetic code.
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“Besides, once WH40k realizes how outmatched they are I would think they’d just surrender.”
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Doesn’t happen, and isn’t one of the above options. Both sides go at it until one emerges the victor having enslaved or killed all the opponents.
“Everyone likes new tech, regardless of its origin. there will be something of 40K’s worth stealing, even if its nowhere but the Eldar homeworlds, Necron worldships and Tyranid genetic code.”
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But to get Eldar superweapons, or Necron weapons, or Tyranid genes… why do they need to keep the Imperium of Man’s infrastructure intact?
I see Dune’s first move being to Launch Probes at barren, but resourced worlds, or even some of the less important imperial worlds, and begin to sneak Face Dancers into various parts of the Imperial Hierarchy. The Planetery Governor of a Hive World here, A Magos there; A Tau Commander, a Farseer; working their way up the chain until they have Face Dancers among the High Lords of Terra themselves.
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These Face Dancers could begin to subvert their target zones subtly against the Imperium, intentionally “losing” production quotas and tithes; sabotaging critical facilities; turning Imperial Assets against each other, etc.
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All the While, the Machine Probes will be constructing armies from within the 40K borders. And with their superior travel speed, attacks can be made of planets before there is properly time to respond.
Unfortunately the author of this match didn’t put a limiter on the Tyranids. And we all know how those kinds of matches end up.
(Limitless amounts of Tyranids rushing lolwut)
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Same goes for the Orks, and technically Chaos as they WILL NEVER run out of daemons, so W40K eventually wins due to:
1. Crazy amounts of Orks using red versions of your vehicles that move faster because that’s just the way it is – plus they reproduce asexually so technically limitless
2. Limitless Tyranids that constantly replenish themselves by eating YOU
3. Literally limitless daemons of Chaos. Seriously, quite literally
So we have three limitless armies spawning potentially billions upon billions of troops upon a whim, versus smaller-scale armies that are limited but are truly awesome in their combat abilities. And now we have a great battle until Dune is dragged down and killed – then we hope the massive battle left some sort of infrastructure intact so that W40K can claim the victory. If not – draw.
And we haven’t even factored in the Necrons, Tau, Imperium or Eldar yet.
Daemons require special circumstances to enter the material world, and can only stay for so long. And Tyranids are so slow that Dune Forces can commit constant and crippling hit and runs against them, and vanish before they can retaliate. The Imperium/Tau/possibly Eldar will be in dissaray because of Face Dancer infiltration. Orks will be tricky, as always, but they are defeatable. Necrons are…Well, they’re Necrons.
“But to get Eldar superweapons, or Necron weapons, or Tyranid genes… why do they need to keep the Imperium of Man’s infrastructure intact?”
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Because somethingsomethingsomething. Seriously, the “why”s don’t matter. The fact remains, for the purposes of this battle, infrastructure must remain relatively unbroken.
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“Daemons require special circumstances to enter the material world, and can only stay for so long.”
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Every cultist from Holy Terra to the Ghoul Stars screaming their worship and enacting all manner of foul rituals in the name of their twisted Gods would classify just fine as “special circumstances”
To be frank, whenever W40K fights anything it boils down to swarming the enemy with large amounts of anything.
The Tyranids don’t care about being picked off by hit-and-run tactics. It’s like an avalanche – you can stop a few pebbles here and there but it’ll get you eventually, and you’ll get overwhelmed and smothered. It wouldn’t matter how much Dune kills and kills and kills – the Tyranids have the numbers to ignore such casualties and forge ever onwards. Even if the Tyranids are just acting as distractions for the massive WAAAAGH of the Orks to pincer the Dune universe W40K can still win.
Chaos heretics can just chain those limitless amounts of daemons to mechanical bodies, or sacrifice mortal bodies for that same daemonic horde that will just crush Dune even more.
We don’t need the Imperium, the Tau and Eldar, but mostly because they wouldn’t be doing anything (wrapped up with face dancers or whatever they are).
You can replicate(?) some of the higher echelons of Chaos, but their sheer amount of Warp energy and touch with their dark gods will make it pretty easy to weed out those clones. And besides, Chaos has been infiltrated before – did it really matter? Did Chaos really care or did it affect their overall plans? Sadly no.
And don’t forget that humanity evolves some pretty crazy powers over the however many tens or hundreds of thousands of years the books span. By the end of the series, most if not all of humanity is completely invisible to psychics, and then there’s the physical aspect from the Bene Gesserit’s breeding program; Duncan Idaho, one of the best warriors of his day (remember those Sardakaur guys mentioned above? the ones where 300 of them can fight double-digit thousands of regular soldiers and win? He single-handedly takes down 12 of them with just a sword before being overwhelmed) later in the series (and several thousands years in the future) spars with an old man with no combat training whatsoever, and due to evolution the old guy is so physically superior he wipes the floor with Duncan. Then there’s all the other crazy powers, like Miles Teg’s superspeed.
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Some of the other nifty stuff Dune has is Omnius’ Tachyon Net, which he can use for FTL scouting and can even apparently use it to physically snare actual ships.
Then there’s Face Dancers, as has been mantioned. End-of-series Face Dancers not only take on their victims physical form (even able to apear non-human, such as a Futar) but they also take their memories. That could be big.
They also have the ability to create Gholas, which are clones made from someone after their death. If a Ghola experiences a traumatic event they will recall the memories of their original life (or, in Duncan Idaho’s case, all of his past lives, since every time his Ghola died they made a new one). This means if they lose someone important (such as Paul or Leto II Atreides or Duncan Idaho) then they can effectively resurrect them.
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If this really is composite, then they also get stuff from the games and movies too, I imagine? Things like mind-control gas, inkvine flamethrowers, cloaking devices, handheld sonic weapons that can shatter stone, tank-mounted sonic weapons that can shatter tanks, NIAB Tanks with their short-range combat teleport, and maybe the Emperor Worm. For starters.
The Machine Empire has virtually limitless capacity for reproduction as well.
Any word from Genestealer cults?
For the moment lets look at what an assault on Arrakis, would be like
Let’s say dune is as, it was during Muad’Dib reign, now an assault by the 40k side, would be spearheaded by necrons they are they fastest space faring face, so they would arrive first, followed by the IoM, Orks,Eldar, then bringing up the rear Tau and Tyranids.
As a realistic campaign each race can only afford to send a number of vessels and troops, with out affecting the defence of their own empires.
How fast can each race deploy it’s troops, before Dune reinforcements arrive, how will they fare on the planet below, in combat with not only local ground forces, but that planets conditions and animal life as well, and what will happen when the fresh new troops arrive.
“Any word from Genestealer cults?”
I’m not sure how well a Genestealer cult would work on most of Dune. Certainly wouldn’t work on the Machine Empire, and the Tleilaxu and Bene Gesserit might pick up on something like this.
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There are also three characters on Dune’s side with perfect presience,as in, they can see every possible future all the way to the end of time, and know exactly what must come to pass, down to the most minute detail, to bring about each and every one of them. It’s a significant (actually, a central) plot point that Paul (and to a greater extent his son, Leto II) Atreides is able to set in motion what he calls The Golden Path; the one way humanity can survive a catastrophic event tens of thousands of years in the future. Paul lives a normal lifespan for the setting, Leto II substantially longer, but even millennia after they’re both dead people are still ‘walking the Golden Path’ without knowing it.
The plan goes off without a hitch, by the way. Just As Planned.
Actually, technically they probably have more Kwisatz Haderachs. They have Original!Paul, Original!Leto II, Ghola!Paul, Evil Ghola!Paul (a separate character from Ghola!Paul), Ghola!Leto II, and Ghola!Duncan Idaho. I think this presience will be Dune’s biggest aset, and what wins it for them (if they do in fact win), since they already know exactly what everything in 40k is going to do before they even do it, and exactly what to do to turn any situation to the bets possible advantage, and are skilled enough at setting plans in motion that people who are born thousands of years after they die react exactly as expected to plans they set in motion while alive. Tzeentch would tear his hair out in frustration.
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“How fast can each race deploy it’s troops, before Dune reinforcements arrive”
Dune FTL uses the Holtzmann Drive, a device that travels vast distances (trans-galactic at least) instantaneously by folding space. The time between a Dune planet falling under attack and reinforcements arriving will literally be as long as it takes for everyone to get on board and take off. That is, provided the reinforcements aren’t already there due to presience.
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“but that planets conditions and animal life as well”
For anyone who doesn’t know, typical Dune weather is a day so blisteringly hot that you can die within hours due to dehydration in the desert. The Fremen, who live in said desert, get around this by using something called a stilsuit, which reclaims all their body’s water (yes, *all* of it) and recycles it for them. You know dehydration is a legitimate threat when the natives are even worried about losing moisture through their breath.
There’s also sandstorms powerful enough to ‘flay the flesh from your bones, then grind those bones to dust’, apparently.
Typical wildlife includes such hamrless critters as the Sandtrout (little leech-like things attracted to water) and the Muad’dib (a kangaroo mouse thing), as well as the iconic Sandworm, a massive beast that can grow to several miles long, is attracted to vibrations (anything from explosions and weapons fire to footsteps), have a tough armor-like skin that it takes anti-vehicle weapons to penetrate, and often a whole group of Fremen riding on its back into battle.
Shai-Hulud! Shai-Hulud!
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The Machine Empire is also fond of Launching Plague Canisters at Human worlds, which die in short order. Almost Zero chance of it working on the Nids, but seems reasonable for Humans, Tau, Eldar, and maybe Orks.
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Still, Necrons make this a new level of difficult as always.
40k have Better Technologies
@Masonicon
Debatable.
I just don’t see how Dune has the man power to take this, there’s just no way. If you take current incarnation warhammer 40k and current dune universe I just don’t see it.
With Composite Incarnation for Dune, they’ve got a pretty huge population too. The Butlerian Jihad resulted in Trillions in losses by Humanity, and there were the years of the Corrino Dynasty when the population regrew, the reign of Leto II, then all of the worlds colonized by the Scattering, and finally where the series leaves off. The Multi-Galaxy Spanning Machine Empire of the Pre-Jihad days, and the Neo Machine Empire.
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They have a good bit of manpower themselves.
Mind expanding on the Dune eras?
“Mind expanding on the Dune eras?”
Earliest era present in the books is the Butlerian Jihad era, with the League of Nobles (or at least that’s what I think they were called) fighting the Machine Empire (or Synchronized Empire, or whatever they called themselves). This era had psychics who were basically mind-melting suicide bombers, a number of technological geniuses like Norma Cenva and (to a lesser but still noticeable degree) Tio Holtzmann. There’s also the Cymek Empire, which are machines controlled by human brain-in-a-jars. Probably the weakest era, since all the stuff that is used widely throughout the rest of the series (such as Holtzmann Drives and shields) are only just being invented.
Next up is the Landsraad Era; the one everyone who has heard of Dune is familar with. This one has the various Houses (such as Atreides and Harkonnen. Ordos too, if the games are included), the Padishah Emperor, the Sardakaur, the Fremen, and the Great Spice War followed immediately by the Fremen conquering the Empire. This era also provides Paul Atreides, one of the Kwisatz Haderachs.
Next up is Leto II’s God-Emperor era. Here the Landsraad has been dissolved, and both the Bene Gesserit and Leto II himself are doing crazy breeding programs to give the human race special powers. As the name implies, this era also has Leto II, another Kwisatz Haderach.
Then there’s the Scattering, which occurs after Leto II’s (planned)” death. During this time humanity explodes outwards into other galaxies and eventually becomes so large nobody can keep track of just how many worlds or how much space is colonized by humans. At this point some explorers on the fronge of human space stumble across Omnius’ multi-galaxy-spanning reborn Machine Empire, which has been steadily building, expanding, and becoming more advanced ever since its defeat (and, as the humans thought, extinction) during the Butlerian Jihad how ever many thousands of years ago. They piss the machines off somehow, and the machines start rampaging around fringe human space.
Lastly is the Sandworms of Dune era; the area of space made up by the Old Empire is now officially at war with the Machine Empire, all the major characters from older books are back as Gholas (including old Kwisatz Haderachs Leto II and Paul (who’s actually been Ghola’d twice; once by the humans and once by the machines. The machine one is evil)), and Duncan Idaho discovers he’s also a Kwisatz Haderach after however many thousands of years since the original died. It’s got several galaxies worth of manpower, the best technology Dune has to offer, a half dozen characters with perfect presience, and such.
well when the imperum sends a Crusade they send millions of tanks and men (along with amunition for all of them that will last a while).
the imperium is nothing if not paranoid… so face dancers will be weeded out by their psychic presence… or lack there of… and inquisitors will have quite a bit of fun…
oh and concerning the bio-bombs… the tech priests will survive…
“the imperium is nothing if not paranoid… so face dancers will be weeded out by their psychic presence… or lack there of…”
Face Dancers acquire the memories of their victims (to the degree that there have been rare cases of particularly undercover Face Dancers forgetting they’re Face Dancers and starting to believe they’re the real person they’re impersonating). So if you’re thinking about something like mind reading, that’s out.
It should be noted that the Bene Gesserit, who sort of evolved out of the Witches of Rossak (those psychics mentioned above) couldn’t detect Face Dancers except via pheromones. By the end of the series, even that didn’t work anymore, as Face Dancers were being constantly improved.
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“oh and concerning the bio-bombs… the tech priests will survive…”
Umm… how? the only person, psychic, or Cymek (remember, human brain in a giant robot) to ever survive one of these mind blast things is Norma Cenva. It should be noted that Cenva later became a Physical God able to teleport thousands of ships across intergalactic distances instantly, and all from different starting locations, banish thousands of copies of an AI to an alternate universe simultaneously, and other, similarly impressive feats. She was able to atomize herself and then reconstruct her own body on a molecular level (her conciousness just sort of existing even without a body) almost immediately after awakening her psychic powers, for god’s sake.
if its a bio-bomb then why dose it release a ‘mind blast?’ cause if it says bio-bomb it is a bio-bomb not a bio/mind bomb….
and their singinture in the WARP will eaither
A) not be their
B) be their own….
or c) non exsistant…
@LGLP
“Bio-Bomb” in this case is mean to be taken as “An organism which by some means, undergoes a violent reaction and detonates-with a range of possible effects.” If the Sisters of Rosaak used their full abilities, they’d explode violently, taking everything around them with them.
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So you’re telling me that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the TRILLIONS of humans in the 40K universe have their unique warp signiture recorded somehow, and that EVERY SINGLE Inquisitor out of God knows how many there are, has a compiled list of every soul in the Imperium. Sounds fishy to me bro.
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Face Dancers don’t just imitate a person, they essentially BECOME the person. They’ll know everything the original knew, and there was no discernible way for Dune Psychics to uncover them, why should it be different here?
‘So you’re telling me that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the TRILLIONS of humans in the 40K universe have their unique warp signiture recorded somehow, and that EVERY SINGLE Inquisitor out of God knows how many there are, has a compiled list of every soul in the Imperium. Sounds fishy to me bro.’
it is possable… some could be close to identical and if it is impossable to detect them due to a LACK of presences in the warp inquisitors and psykers would just have to look for ‘empty’ spots in the wapr…
Face Dancers have souls, going by elemental compatibility, its just that given that in 40K, the warp sig is the summation of your thoughts and emotions and Psyche; all of which are imitated perfectly by the Face Dancer in question. They aren’t Pariahs, and thus should blend in perfectly, just as they were created to do.
mmm… ok so you say theyh can’t be detected yet still can be seen? stupid fing dune and its lame arse excuses….
no matter… the emperor will have the day!
They can be seen yeah, but perfectly imitate. Lame arse excuses? Boy, if I know anything about 40K (which I know a decent bit), its that GW is no stranger to Lame Arse excuses.
i know… but still lame arse excuses i do not know about!
“the imperium is nothing if not paranoid… so face dancers will be weeded out by their psychic presence… or lack there of…”
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Minor point on Dunes side here, but… Have you actually studied Warhammer 40K history in any depth? I’m as big a fan as you’re likely to find on the site, and even I have to admit this sort of tactic won’t go noticed for years, if ever. If you’re relying on the inquisitors and psykers to prevail when it comes to census taking you’ve already lost. The imperium is the same force who managed to not take into a entire battalions status when redeploying them. Doesn’t seem that bad, except the status was “Killed to the last man”
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The Imperium once redeployed n imperial Guard regiment of thousands when they’d already been killed to the last. Then, to add idiocy on top of idiocy, when the deceased regiment didn’t turn up, they were declared heretics!
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When the Imperium can lose whole regiments of their own men, I don’t think a few new people is going to make a difference.
And if the Face Dancers manage to infilitrate the Imperium, they may never actually be discovered. And that they might actually be able to turn the Imperium to fighting some of the other factions for them. If they Infiltrate the High Lords, they’ll have almost full control of the Imperium itself, and they can turn those forces to fight the Orks and Tyranids and Necrons as well.
“When the Imperium can lose whole regiments of their own men, I don’t think a few new people is going to make a difference.”
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Replace “regiments” with “planets” – the Imperial bureaucracy looses planets all the time.
They’ve even had planets been conquered by enemies outright, and declared them to be heretics in rebellion against the Imperium because the (conquered and now enemy controlled) system stopped sending in its taxes.
That’s in addition to the fact that planets readily disappear within the paperwork generated by the Adeptus.
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If Face Dancers (at least, end-series Face Dancers) infiltrate the Imperium, as long as they don’t do anything overt to expose themselves until after they’re adequately positioned … it is highly probable that they’d never be discovered.
So Saudakar vs Space Marine may have potential, if someone makes dang sure it’ll be done right?
I don’t think face dancers need worry about being overtly cautious, when things like the age of apostasy have happened.
It only shows that the IoM is ridiculously rigid when it comes to chain of command, it’s history is rich with examples of insane leaders causing large scale destruction, which was carried out by local citizens just following orders.
“It only shows that the IoM is ridiculously rigid when it comes to chain of command, it’s history is rich with examples of insane leaders causing large scale destruction, which was carried out by local citizens just following orders”
And Face Dancers should be all over that. In Dune they infiltrated the highest echelons of command in the Spacing Guild and the Ix and pretty much collapsed them in upon themselves (they even started a civil war between Guild command and their Navigators). And with the Ix they sabotaged *everything* they were making for the war effort, up to and including the machines designed to replace the Navigators, which sparked that civil war in the first place.
Eh, Sardaukar are mean, but its iffy if they could go one on one with an Astartes.
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Then again, Dune Lasguns are much more powerful than the 40K equivalent, more akin to actual lascannons, so it seems Sardaukar should have the firepower to burn them through. And Personal shields would actually protect against Bolter fire and other attacks like flamers and grenades or rockets. The shields would also give decent protection against melee.
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I finally found my copy of Dune, and I was wrong about organization of Sardaukar Troops. A single Legion is composed of ten Brigades, and a Brigade is composed of one hundred Sardaukar, usually led by a Colonel-Bashar. So a Legion is roughly equal to a Space Marine Chapter, right down to the ten companies of a hundred. Though there are far more Legions than Space Marine Chapters.
I haven’t seen anything for the Dune side that isn’t on the 40k side in one form or another. Planet busters = check, omniscience = check, etc… and 40k has more in the numbers department as far as I can see.
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Is 40k composite too? Or is it Current Incarnation?
Doesn’t the Imperium already have experience with Face Dancer-esque enemies via Callidus Temple Assassins? And how well would the Officio Assassinorum perform?
“omniscience = check”
Not quite. The only being in 40k with presience on the same level as Dune is totally batshit crazy, and has CIS preventing him from giving a straight answer, even to his boss.
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“and 40k has more in the numbers department as far as I can see.”
I’m not so sure. Trillions of people were said to have died during the Butlerian Jihad, and the area of space and population occupied during that war is a fraction of the size of humanity post-Scattering, although we’re never given exact numbers (it’s so vast that even with instant FTL nobody can keep track of exactly how big it is. It’s at least several galaxies). Then there’s the multi-galaxy Neo Machine Empire, which has been constantly building robots for tens of thousands of years. The Tyranids probably outnumber Dune, but I have my doubts about everyone else.
And Callidus Temple Assassins have a very high success rating. That’s why the Assassin Temples keep training them – if they didn’t work, they wouldn’t be worth the massive investment, and even the Imperium wouldn’t use them. Plus, well, a neo-Face Dancer is a hell of a lot more effective an infiltrator than a Callidus is – the Callidus doesn’t acquire all the memories of the subject that they assume the identity of, the neo-Face Dancer does.
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The Officio Assassinorum is too small, and too few in number to have significant effect, ignoring the transit time difficulties they would experience. And then, well, there’s the fact that the primary offensive arm of Dune (or, at least, the numerically largest and most readily replenished force) are the Machine Empires. Which, by the way, particularly the Neo-Machine Empire (especially end-series), the Mechanicus will fall into an obsessive stupor over, and may well recognize end-series Duncan Idaho as the True Omnissiah in the flesh, and consider the GEoM an imposter and revolt.
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40k does not have the advantage of numbers … that’s pretty squarely on the side of Dune, and seeing as Dune also has the advantage of superior transportation capabilities, along with perfect prescience …
Look, 40k is going to run into a similar problem here as they did with Stargate – 40k is slow in terms of its FTL capabilities (in general, anyways – there are the occasional anomalies, and the Eldar and Necrons are both fast over the area that their networks (Webway and Dolmen Gates) cover, but are exceedingly limited outside of it).
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Dune may have difficulties capturing all the infrastructure (or certain aspects of it, anyways) of 40k.
40k, however, will find it effectively impossible to effectively secure control over any of Dune’s infrastructure. 40k cannot reliably reach Dune in a timely manner, and if/when they do reach Dune, they’ll be facing overwhelming force, at best, and at worst, they’ll find nothing.
Also, I imagine a few Face Dancers replacing technicians, scientists, and the like could give Dune a pretty fast and easy way to start replicating some of 40k’s tech, if they should ever need it.
Mmmm, to be fair, the Mechanicus – at least, the full-tech priests – will likely be more difficult for a Face Dancer to infiltrate, on account of the blatant augmentations and implants, which – to my knowledge – is something that the Face Dancers would probably have difficulties emulating in both appearance and function.
However, I see no reason as to why a Face Dancer could not obtain their memories, per normal, and then not replace them immediately.
And the Dune places (especially those that existed during the original book) are well aquainted with with such things as the Assassinorum, as they have the Wars of Assassins, in which the Great Houses settle a dispute by putting their full effort into using every manner of assassin and dirty trick they can concoct to kill whatever has them riled up.
@”Not quite. The only being in 40k with presience on the same level as Dune is totally batshit crazy, and has CIS preventing him from giving a straight answer, even to his boss.”
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Well all information is accessible from the Warp wit hilarious ease, a couple of daemons sacrficed a bunch of navigators and allowed a person to become omniscient (at the cost of her sanity, but she was apiddly navigator) the Akashic reader devised by the Mechanicus, and the best two choices, Fateweaver (who can answer honestly with both heads on important occasions, as seen in Aurelian.
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“I’m not so sure. Trillions of people were said to have died during the Butlerian Jihad, and the area of space and population occupied during that war is a fraction of the size of humanity post-Scattering, although we’re never given exact numbers (it’s so vast that even with instant FTL nobody can keep track of exactly how big it is. It’s at least several galaxies). Then there’s the multi-galaxy Neo Machine Empire, which has been constantly building robots for tens of thousands of years. The Tyranids probably outnumber Dune, but I have my doubts about everyone else.”
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Hilariously, it is said that billions/trillions of people die every DAY in the 40k Milky Way, and that is just the Imperium. Also, the Eldar Empire pre fall had (listen to this) TREDECILLIONS of people, and they are stated to be vastly outnumbered by current Humanity, who is vastly outnumbered by Orkz, who are outnumbered or equal in number (likely outnumbered) by the Tyranids.
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“And Callidus Temple Assassins have a very high success rating. That’s why the Assassin Temples keep training them – if they didn’t work, they wouldn’t be worth the massive investment, and even the Imperium wouldn’t use them. Plus, well, a neo-Face Dancer is a hell of a lot more effective an infiltrator than a Callidus is – the Callidus doesn’t acquire all the memories of the subject that they assume the identity of, the neo-Face Dancer does.”
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Calidus don’t because Calidus don’t eed to, they are that good at their job, however, there are many occasions of them having a false personality implanted within them, or many many psykers can reprogram peoples minds, or strip them away. And there are several species that can gain peoples memories through eating them.
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“The Officio Assassinorum is too small, and too few in number to have significant effect, ignoring the transit time difficulties they would experience. And then, well, there’s the fact that the primary offensive arm of Dune (or, at least, the numerically largest and most readily replenished force) are the Machine Empires. Which, by the way, particularly the Neo-Machine Empire (especially end-series), the Mechanicus will fall into an obsessive stupor over, and may well recognize end-series Duncan Idaho as the True Omnissiah in the flesh, and consider the GEoM an imposter and revolt.”
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The Assassinorum aren’t meant to fight wars, they are made for going for the higher ups, and they effortlessly destroy Space Marines. However, the best infiltrators are Chaos/Necrons (especially Necrons).
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@Kytheros
“40k does not have the advantage of numbers … that’s pretty squarely on the side of Dune, and seeing as Dune also has the advantage of superior transportation capabilities, along with perfect prescience …
Look, 40k is going to run into a similar problem here as they did with Stargate – 40k is slow in terms of its FTL capabilities (in general, anyways – there are the occasional anomalies, and the Eldar and Necrons are both fast over the area that their networks (Webway and Dolmen Gates) cover, but are exceedingly limited outside of it).”
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How do you come to the conclusion of superior numbers? And omniscience>prescience.
Also, even though for some reason like to pretend that the Necrons use only Dolmen Gates, they don’t. And should we really feel like pulling out the wank, we have the Imperium reproduce the Warp drive used on some Assinorum ships allowing them to always arrive before they left, but without duplicating them.
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“Also, I imagine a few Face Dancers replacing technicians, scientists, and the like could give Dune a pretty fast and easy way to start replicating some of 40k’s tech, if they should ever need it.”
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The same can easily be said of the 40k side, or they just consult the several means of omniscience available to them. But I don’t advocate the bullshit of magically whipping up new ways of using tech and “competence” that destroys the entire franchise. But with the obvious increase in different areas not having to kill each other brings, and tech sharing should be an absolute no-no.
“Well all information is accessible from the Warp wit hilarious ease, a couple of daemons sacrficed a bunch of navigators and allowed a person to become omniscient (at the cost of her sanity, but she was apiddly navigator) the Akashic reader devised by the Mechanicus, and the best two choices, Fateweaver (who can answer honestly with both heads on important occasions, as seen in Aurelian.”
I’m not sure if this if this would make a difference, but by the end of the series, every single human alive in Dune has a special genetic trait that renders them invisible to presience, psychic detection, and the like. They also have shields that do the same thing to ships. This is why Omnius needed his Tachyon Net to search for the Ithaca despite having a clone of Paul Atreides with all his Kwisatz Haderach future-sight and psychic detection powers; the ship and everyone on board was invisible to that sort of thing. Hell, the Harkonnens had a no-ship (as they’re called) all the way back in ‘House Harkonnen’, which takes place a few decades before the original book and is only preceded by the Butlerian Jihad trilogy.
How exactly can someone be immune to prescience? It just makes no sense…does it have something to do with the Spice?
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But omniscience isn’t being defeated.
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And while the psychic shield things will be handy against some forces it won’t help against the non psychic sensors.
Okay, ‘prescience’, in the manner that Paul Atreides (and his gholam), end-series Duncan Idaho, Alia Atreides, etc. have is both looking forwards into the future, and looking backwards into the past. Oh, and Paul Muad’dib Atreides has demonstrated the ability to look into the present as well – I’m not sure if there’s explicit textev for anyone else, though it seems probable that his gholam could, and Norma Cenva has demonstrated feats that would seem to indicate being able to look into the present, in addition to the future.
Every Guild Navigator can look into the future, though for some of them (at least, as of the end of the Corrino Empire era, at the Rise of Paul Muad’Dib Atreides pre-Golden Path, pre-Scattering), they’re more limited in their ability to look forwards into the future than he is.
“How exactly can someone be immune to prescience?”
Easy – anybody trying to see the future simply cannot see them or anything they do.
If you’re asking ‘how are they immune’ rather than ‘how does it work’, Leto II and the Bene Gesserit were both conducting long-term (as in, multi-millennium) breeding programs on the human race, and they eventually produced Siona Atreides, who had been specifically bred by Leto II to be invisible to presience (as was required by his vision of the Golden Path). Over the next couple thousands of years she passed the gene down through her descendants to most of the rest of humanity, with a few other ‘patient zeros’, as it were, popping up when latent Atreides genes resurfaced.
Damn, those Atreides had good genes.
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“It just makes no sense”
If we discounted things because they made no sense, a significant portion of 40k would be disqualified.
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“does it have something to do with the Spice?”
Not particularly, unless you count the presience it’s cloaking against requiring Spice. It’s a genetic thing.
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“But omniscience isn’t being defeated.”
I’m not sure I buy this omniscience thing, at least without more proof. There’s a *big* difference between knowing a hell of a lot and knowing literally everything.
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“And while the psychic shield things will be handy against some forces it won’t help against the non psychic sensors.”
Dune’s got standard cloaking as well if the games are included (and no-ships may be cloaked anyways, now that I think about it. Time to go looking up the Ithaca), and space-folding instant FTL means long-distance sensors and the like will be pretty much useless. Due to Dune’s massive speed advantage and presience, unless 40k already knows in advance where Dune will be striking (which their psychic invisibility makes difficult), they’ll have no idea until Dune’s forces are already within spitting distance and unloading into them.
Also, interesting loophole; Obliterators (Dune’s planet-busting missiles, not 40k’s crazy mutant supersoldiers) actually light a planet’s atmosphere on fire, which would presumably leave a good portion of infrastructure intact. Enough to satisfy the letter of the stipulations? Maybe. Enough to satisfy the spirit of them? Probably not, but it’s worth a shot.
In the original Dune, after Paul drinks the Water of Life (created when you “drown” a young Sandworm), he unlocks some latent ability within his genes that basically forces him to see and run down every possible future down to the end of time. He knows everything anybody could ever try, think of trying, or will try against him. His son inherits this ability, and it passes down the generations. Its implied that Count Fenring, being a very close miss from the Kwisatz Haderach, also had a limited form of the all knowingness.
Ok, so they block psychic prescience, but not other non-magical prescience (don’t ask me how The Diviner does it, he “looks to the stars” and knows millions of years ahead of time). But if it is a gene-thing, specifically for Dune, why would it work on 40k?
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And on the omniscience thing, here are several.
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“This is a great boon indeed, for the Oracle knows the answer to all questions and one of the two heads will always answer the truth.” 4th Ed. Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.49 – ”Fateweaver”, 3rd paragraph.
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“These, the Greater Daemons of Tzeentch, can tread the secret paths that lead to the inner sactum within the Impossible Fortress; the Hidden Library where Tzeentch concocts his eternal plots.
The Hidden Library itself contains every scrap of knowledge, every thought of every creature across space and time.” 4th Ed. Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.11 – ”The Maze of Tzeentch”, 6th & 7th paragraphs.
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And there are several things in 40k like that, the Emperor’s Tears are the absolutely most terrifying one though. A single missile loaded with it fires, it hits the planets atmosphere, in SECONDS everything on the planet dies. Every last bit of life, then seconds later it is all reborn as Plague creatues serving Nurgle, leaving the infrastructure intact.
The empy isn’t a god, he does not want to be one,they think he’s one but he just an op godlike guy who is not a god, therefore, w40k wins by having a god that isn’t a god that is a god, etc on their side, that can think planets out of existence
This is what I have to say about the face dancers… good luck trying to get to the Sol System right pass the Grey Knights fotress monestary. Then you have the Custodians. Whom their Captian General is on the High Lords of terra. Good luck trying to get into that my friends. Also if you do not think that the Imperium is not infilitarted at all levels on a daily basis you are worng. They are infiltrated at almost every level all the time. Heck, even the Blood Angels were infilitarted by Fabious Bile. As for the Face things actually thinking they are who they are… The imperium dose not care. You dont do what they wish they shoot you. You wana run from cobat shot, you trying to give more freedome to your people than what the high lords say you can shot, you trying to sabatoge qoutas shot or tourtard by an inquisator for fun, Infiltarted the grey knights… You wouldnt be able to, As i said the only way the facelifters can infiltrate the Imperium at any high levels is if they continue to do what the person they replaced did, if not they get shot in the head.
Do you guys have anything that can stand up against a Emperor Class battle titan?
We also have our own infiltrators and lots of them, Changlings, Callidus assassins, Alpha Legion, and Gene Stealers.
Then here is my favorite part, what do you have that can take down a phalanx star fortress, and my favorite Warp cannons.
Good God. I mean what the hell, did you type that while masturbating or something? Your grammar and spelling…Holy shit.
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God Damn, I can’t even argue with you. It’s too noxious.