Suggested By TheWatcher57
Here we have two anime charcter going head to head in a fight. We first have Grimmjow from Bleach fighting Hiei from Yu Yu Hakusho.
For this battle both characters are at peak strength and they will fight in the Sahara.
Who wins?
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Galorian has yet to reply to this:
So Galorian, your belief is that Ichigo was shitting himself at Gin’s Bankai’s speed, when his own is 100 times as fast?
“If you can’t be bothered to catch up on what’s been brought up and discussed then don’t expect anyone to take you erroneous declarations seriously.”
Stop thinking you have solved things you haven’t solved at all.
“To extend 13km in 1/500 the span of time it took the sound of his clap to reach Ichigo (which is standing a few meters away, say 50m to be extra fair and completely wrong given the scene for the sake of the argument) Gin’s Bankai’s extension speed would have to be around mach 130,000.”
www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=612088
read the entire thread.
He goes from saying it’s the longest and then the fastest(which means he lied about the length, but lets assume he was truthful). He was lying about both all along however. So that means that he can’t be taken truthfully.
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Ichigo did react badly though.
Now you have to ask yourself was it because it’s mach 500 or around 1/5th the speed of light he reacted the way he did?
mach 191,176.5 means covering 65000.01km in one second.
You know what that implies right?
That is covers 5,000km in 1/13 of second.
If we take it to the point of how long it would take it to extend fully it would be absurd.
So lets do that
It would cover it’s maximum length in 1/5000 of second you do realize how insane you sound with your claim right?
He’s claiming it’s the speed of sound with a clap.
At most it would be 170 km per second which means it would reach full length in a bit more than 1/13 of a second.
(0.34 is the distance the speed of sound reaches in 1 second x that by 500)
Not this 1/5000 you are claiming.
www.unitjuggler.com/convert-speed-from-Ma-to-kms.html
“He’s claiming it’s the speed of sound with a clap.”not that it’s the distance from him to Ichigo regardless how far away he is it would still be 0.34( I don’t think the speed of sound coming from a clap is as fast anyway, but whatever makes it easier)
“Assumption and Assumption I’m not buying it.”
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Look at the scene closely-
Gin says “I’ll show you of fast kamishiniyari can extend”. He then claps his hands really fast, which is accentuated by the way the movement is shown as a blur, meaning it’s really goddamn fast, asks Ichigo if it reached him and states that it’s 500 times that.
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He isn’t talking about velocity, he’s talking about duration. It’s painfully obvious if you actually stop and think about it for a second…
@Larhal
“www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=612088″
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IF you’d actually bother to read anything you’d see there are several people there stating the exact same things I’ve stated, and one saying the original Japanese translates as “can you see it?”, which blows your logic clean out of the water.
“He then claps his hands really fast, which is accentuated by the way the movement is shown as a blur, meaning it’s really goddamn fast,”
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Hey galorian how fast are they going?
“really goddamn fast”
So peak human speed is really goddamn fast now?
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MotionBlur
Hey Galorian move your hand in front of you as fast as you can and tell me how much it blurs.
“He isn’t talking about velocity, he’s talking about duration. It’s painfully obvious if you actually stop and think about it for a second…”
At the speed that you claim it’s going it may as well be the same thing.
“IF you’d actually bother to read anything you’d see there are several people there stating the exact same things I’ve stated, and one saying the original Japanese translates as “can you see it?”, which blows your logic clean out of the water.”
Actually I did read it, though you didn’t obviously.
And no it doesn’t blow it clean out of the water. You have no real support for it being more correct than the translation that I showed.
@Galorian
Actually I was arguing with the distance and stuff like that. Find the correct distance and whatever and then we’ll see.
@Galorian
There were two speeds calculated in that thread. Mach 55 and Mach 227. They both are gotten through the same method with the only difference being the speed used to calculate it. So you never told me why the Mach 55 is wrong and again obtain using the exact same method.
@Laharl
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It is really really fast because it’s drawn in a way that emphasizes speed in a setting of speedsters- even Ichigo is surprised. However, even if it wasn’t a super-humanly fast hand clap it still is something that takes place in a fraction of a second. My using 100ms as the duration of the clap was meant to be extra fair, as it assumes it’s not ridiculously superhuman.
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As for the translation issue, you seem to be under the impression one translation favors your stance, which is false. The “original” translation can support the mach 500 theory if its viewed as shallowly as you insist on viewing it, but bothering to actually read the scene and taking a few moments to actually think about what Gin says makes it painfully obvious he wasn’t speaking of the speed of sound, but rather of the timeframe involved.
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The second translation is just the final nail in the mach 500 theory’s coffin.
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@Darthgrim
“Actually I was arguing with the distance and stuff like that. Find the correct distance and whatever and then we’ll see.”
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Which distance? What scene?
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If you’re referring to Ichigo-vs-Byakuya then I’ve already shown the calculations for the distances involved. If you’re referring to Ichigo-vs-Grimmjow then I’ve already stated that I’m taking a mile as a low end distance since it’s shown they are so far away Ichigo and Grimmjow are barely visible as tiny specs in the sky. If you’re referring to Ichigo-vs-Gin then just take a look at the scans-
mangafox.me/manga/bleach/v46/c400/13.html
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Just looking at the angle at which Ichigo is looking at Gin can tell you he isn’t very far away, given how short building are in Karakatura town in general and the fact Gin had already sliced the taller ones down when he first unveiled his Bankai.
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@TKoH
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If memory serves mach 55 is the lowest it could possibly be while mach 227 is the realistic value.
@TKoH
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Correction, if memory serves the mach 55 calc used an unrealistically low figure for the speed of Ishida’s arrows to reach the figure while the higher one used a more realistic speed.
“Just looking at the angle at which Ichigo is looking at Gin can tell you he isn’t very far away, given how short building are in Karakatura town in general and the fact Gin had already sliced the taller ones down when he first unveiled his Bankai.”
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Exactly, earlier on you said they were like 50 meter’s away, now your saying not far? Make a definitive judgement on that, calc it again and then i’ll discuss the feat.
@Darthgrim
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I said 50 meters as an unreasonably high number so that the result would be a low end…
Find the correct number please…
Let’s Toss a coin!!!
@Galorian
Well that’s one of my questions answered thank you. Now can you calculate Grimmjow’s speed for when he first appeared? That will show the difference of power for when he’s in Las Noches.
What is Las Noches?
@Cross
The place where Grimmjow get’s a power boost and where all the speed calculation for Grimmjow are taken. Las Noches is in Huceo Mundo.
@TkoH
So its a part of that Stat-enhancing zone, isn’t it?
@Cross
Yep.
@TkoH
I figured, a stat-enhancing zone within a stat-enhancing zone, those zones are just as valuable as Anti-Tech Zones, actually.
You can’t use Gin’s bit for any kind of speed or reaction feat anyway. Gin lied from the start on what his bankai did.
What Gin had lied about was how long it could extend so Ichigo wouldn’t realize how fast it truly was.
Gin lied about more than just that. The entire mechanics of the blade was hidden from even Aizen. Which as I said makes me question ANYTHING Gin said.
@Cide
How does that change the fact that it caught him off guard with how fast it is? Even if he lied about the speed you cans till measure how fast it moves.
The calculations on speed require the information given via dialogue to make any sense. Otherwise we’re scaling movement we can’t track in any scene viewed from the reaction speed of super human characters.
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It doesn’t work to disprove anything.
Indeed it still extend to great lengths instantly and retracts faster than even Ichigo could percieve.
BEST MATCH since the 12th. Grimmjow and Hiei are both some of the strongest beings in media and some of my favorite. Whoever wins, I win so I hope someone gets an award
So doesn’t Hiei win?
Past few pages imply Grimmjow takes it from physical advantages .
So the Bleachfag wins then? How disappointing….
Eh, at least it was decently debated.
One may as well try Super Robot Wars vs the Shonen Trinity to see if that gets us anywhere, then.
He hasn’t even given me speed calculation for Grimmjow outside of a place that gives him a power boost this is far from over. I want speed calculation for how fast Grimmjow is in the world of the living.
@Your Majesty
I’m still rooting for Hiei, Setsuna F. Seiei from Gundam 00′s said to be expied off of him after all!
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I swear people don’t read threads anymore. Then again if I’m not interested I also skim so I can’t blame them.
“He hasn’t even given me speed calculation for Grimmjow outside of a place that gives him a power boost this is far from over.”
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What? He made calcs for Grimm with low ends being somewhere in the mid to high double digits and a high point of something along the lines of Mach 200ish. Where’s Hiei’s speed proof?
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“. I want speed calculation for how fast Grimmjow is in the world of the living.”
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And how do we get that when there is no way of doing so when everyone in Bleach apparently exist in a different realm?
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“I’m still rooting for Hiei, Setsuna F. Seiei from Gundam 00′s said to be expied off of him after all!”
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Irrelevant reasoning.
@Soldier’s Shadow
All those speed calculation are when he is in Las Noches where he gets a boos tin power and speed. Grimmjow went to the world of the living on at least two different occasions so he can get them. If you look on the first few pages you’ll see links for Hiei’s speed calculations.
*Boost
We need an edit button like right now.
“Eh, at least it was decently debated.”
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Yeah true I guess
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“I’m still rooting for Hiei, Setsuna F. Seiei from Gundam 00′s said to be expied off of him after all!”
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I don’t even…
..Know where to start, yeah I figured you’d say words along those lines.
Lets just say like Soldier’s Shadow said, your reasoning was entirely irrelevant to the debate
“All those speed calculation are when he is in Las Noches where he gets a boos tin power and speed. Grimmjow went to the world of the living on at least two different occasions so he can get them. If you look on the first few pages you’ll see links for Hiei’s speed calculations.”
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On page 3, Galorian stated that Grimm was around Mach 60 or so in that period which is still above the highest calc we’ve seen for Hiei which was between Mach 25 and Mach 50.
Fair enough, to each their own.
@Soldier’s Shadow
Thankfully still not above what Hiei can track, meaning he’ll be fine for now, right?
@SS
Yeah but he’s no longer using that he assumed he was that fast. He did not actually do calculations based off the chapter so that proves nothing. Also if Grimmjow was that fast then that wouldn’t be fast enough to beat Hiei. He also never answered my question about if he could tank being cut by the Sword of the Darkness Flame which can cut steel.
So the Fat Lady didn’t sing yet and is far from it, right?
Good!
@Cross
I’m not giving up I’m not sure about everyone else. This one guy makes some calculation and all of a sudden everyone believes them even though plenty of sources say otherwise. So I’m just going to keep pulling calculations until I prove him wrong.
“Thankfully still not above what Hiei can track, meaning he’ll be fine for now, right?”
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Wrong.
@SS
I’m sorry can you tell me why Hiei can’t track someone moving at mach 60 when he’s tracked and dodged nigh instantaneous attacks.
“Yeah but he’s no longer using that he assumed he was that fast. He did not actually do calculations based off the chapter so that proves nothing. ”
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He’s made the claim that if Grimm was ten times weaker outside of Los Noches or whatever, he’d still clock in at Mach 63 based off of his other calcs which litter across these pages. Hiei on the other hand has no calcs that match that.
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“Also if Grimmjow was that fast then that wouldn’t be fast enough to beat Hiei. ”
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How so when all that’s been shown for Hiei is below what’s been shown for Grimm?
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“He also never answered my question about if he could tank being cut by the Sword of the Darkness Flame which can cut steel.”
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Ichigo’s attacks >>> Steel. Grimm’s taken worse if the SotDF is that strong.
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“This one guy makes some calculation and all of a sudden everyone believes them even though plenty of sources say otherwise.”
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What makes those sources more viable than his?
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“So I’m just going to keep pulling calculations until I prove him wrong.”
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Unless you get something concrete that puts Hiei above Grimm, you’re just being obstinate.
@SS
It’s funny that you say Ichigo attacks are greater then steel when Galorain admitted that none of the characters can cut through steel. Also doesn’t help that the weakest thing the blade can cut through is steel. Also what makes Galorain more viable then the sources I find? I mean really I find source that are pretty much agreed upon as opposed to just believing him. So what makes him more credible then the sources I’ve found and are looking for?
“I’m sorry can you tell me why Hiei can’t track someone moving at mach 60 when he’s tracked and dodged nigh instantaneous attacks.”
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Instantaneous is not a figure that can be used and is out of subjective or hyperbolic. Bullets move instantaneously to us and characters like Dante dodge them fine but does that mean he can throw down with “instantaneous” moving characters like Flash? No, because logic says otherwise.
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Hiei is slower than Grimmjow by what seems to be at least ten Machs. He is not fast enough to react or keep up with him because of that.
@SS
You keep using his assumptions as facts when he hasn’t proven them. When he uses Grimmjow’s speed feat for being in the world of the living I’ll start taking that into consideration but until then that mach 63 calculation is worthless. Anyway I’m going to bed see you in the morning or afternoon or whatever.
“It’s funny that you say Ichigo attacks are greater then steel when Galorain admitted that none of the characters can cut through steel. ”
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But that makes no sense considering the building busting attacks Bleach characters toss out on the fly in their bigger fights such as the one between Ichigo and Grimmjow. Cite where Galorian said this so I may better understand it.
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“Also doesn’t help that the weakest thing the blade can cut through is steel. ”
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Then why didn’t you cite the strongest?
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“Also what makes Galorain more viable then the sources I find? I mean really I find source that are pretty much agreed upon as opposed to just believing him. So what makes him more credible then the sources I’ve found and are looking for?”
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Burden of proof fallacy and biased sample fallacy. I requested you tell answer my question which was the reverse of yours, you answer my question. Also, just because you agree with those sources for whatever reason but not Galorian’s when others here agree with them is a biased sample.
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24. Biased sample
This is when a statistical survey only takes into consideration a sample of people or entities that are biased towards the conclusion. This only applies to matters of opinion and subjectivity, because even if the sample wasn’t biased, this would not be an effective argument for an objective claim due to the appeal to popularity fallacy.
Example: “Everyone on that forum says that the PS3 is way better than the Wii.”
What the person in the example is neglecting to mention is that the forum he’s referring to is a Sony – centric forum populated mainly by Sony fans.
“You keep using his assumptions as facts when he hasn’t proven them. When he uses Grimmjow’s speed feat for being in the world of the living I’ll start taking that into consideration but until then that mach 63 calculation is worthless”
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You’re doing the same by assuming those Narutoforum calcs are any better than the ones Galorian has posted. Which one is the spoiled apple?
@SS
I’m not being bias. Me not believing him doesn’t make him wrong but there is now reason stated that makes him right. I’m just trying find a way to out how fast Grimmjow really is. If he’s right I’ll apologize for badgering him about but until he is proven to be 100% right I’m going to search for calculations that show him at a lower more believable speed.
“Galorian April 22, 2012 at 5:19 pm – #247
@The King of Heroes
“Anyway don’t all Arrancar have skin tougher then steel or something. I know that the dark sword can cut through steel.”
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That’s an hyperbole, it’s just the name they gave it (iron skin). If their skin was literally as hard as iron it would’ve been downright trivial for any of the captains to cut through it. The toughness also variable between individuals- Nnoitra was stated to have the hardest hierro among the espada even though he was number 5.
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Even Kempachi had trouble cutting through Nnoitra’s hierro, and Kempachi’s blade cut through Ichigo’s shikai like a hot knife through butter when they first met.”
If Grimmjow’s skin is not tougher then steel then he’s getting cut by the darkness flame.
“I’m not being bias. Me not believing him doesn’t make him wrong but there is now reason stated that makes him right. I’m just trying find a way to out how fast Grimmjow really is. If he’s right I’ll apologize for badgering him about but until he is proven to be 100% right I’m going to search for calculations that show him at a lower more believable speed.”
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Didn’t say you were biased, just that you committed a FP fallacy. And what is there that you deem necessary for him to be right? He’s given calcs, rounded them, low balled, high ended and sourced them. Do you need an official word from the writers to say how fast he is? Until he shows up and you bring “feasible” calcs, we only have what has been argued so far to go by.
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“If Grimmjow’s skin is not tougher then steel then he’s getting cut by the darkness flame.”
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I concede then on the durability point. I honestly didn’t think Grimm could tank the outright Dragon attack but if the sword’s of the same substance, it stands a feasible chance just as Grimm’s attacks work in that they can kill Hiei.
So whoever gets the 1st few successful hitst will win this fight?
First person to outclass the other enough to allow that hit wins. So far from what we have going on this thread, it will be Grimmjow pulling it off.
@Soldier’s Shadow
I meant Hits* for sake of spell-checking, man do we need that edit button at some point!
@SS
When I get solid speed calculations of Grimmjow in the world of the living. All calculation for Grimmjow are based on when he is in a place that gives him an unknown but large boost in power. Also and this has nothing to do with Grimmjow but Bleach is very inconsistent with durability. As I said earlier Ichigo tanked an attack capable of messing up space yet a move that went through some pillars hurt him.
“When I get solid speed calculations of Grimmjow in the world of the living. All calculation for Grimmjow are based on when he is in a place that gives him an unknown but large boost in power”
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Galorian addressed this and stated he was ten times weaker outside of that world and he still calced in at Mach 63. Hiei at his highest has still, from what I’ve seen on this thread, only something like Mach 20-50.
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“As I said earlier Ichigo tanked an attack capable of messing up space yet a move that went through some pillars hurt him.”
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Durability is null if Hiei pulls off Dragon of the Darkness Flame or is other stronger techniques. Same goes for Hiei going by Grimm’s own strength and techniques.
Whew… Just read 400 something posts. I have to concede, Grimmjow took this one. I love YYH and all it’s cast, but after reading both sides, the side for the Bleach has the most clarity in regards to the feats, calculations, and responses. Team Hiei seems to cling to the idea that Bleach is stronger than it looks at face value. Even the durability claims seem to be misconstrued. I still haven’t seen the highest durability break from it, all we know is both are above steel. I would love for some more Dragon feats (And possible calcs.), as well as some feats of the Espada natural armor.
Sorry, meant the opposite for the Team Hiei comment.
None of the bleach calcs using explosions are correct ZoM-B.
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Galorian compares them to 100 Ton explosions even though they are nowhere near that size.
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Whenever they have to brace themselves it isn’t from pure physical force, it’s from the clash of Reitsu.
The explosions felt by the people in the distance isn’t the only thing he judges his calculations by. The fact that two people took two different events and scenarios to judge one persons speed and they both came out with similar answers definitely helps. Regardless, I really don’t care about that. Stop misdirecting and if you can’t answer the questions that have been asked time and time again, wait to reply until someone who can shows up.
What are you talking about? Explosions make up the majority of his calculations. he has nothing aside from a calc based on a misunderstanding of the mechanics behind Gin’s Bankai to fall back on.
lol at grimmjow being triple digit Mach speeds
Hiei for the fp award