Suggested by orber
In the name of entertainment, both the Q and Chaos gods have agreed to have some fun in the Star trek universe. Various warp rifts are torn open in the Star Trek universe. Seeing how the Warhammer 40K galaxy and ST galaxy are more or less “the same” galaxy this means the warp rifts from 40K will be directly transported to the exact same spot but in the ST universe.
All traitor Chaos legions are also warped back into the warp but do not know that as soon as they will leave the warp again they will be in a totally different universe.
The Q and Chaos gods themselves crack open a beer and will enjoy watcing the events unfold before their eyes but will not directly interfere with the mortals (sending deamons into realspace is not considered interference.)
How will the various ST factions react to this?
Will they be able to understand and decipher the meaning of the realm of Chaos?
Or will the legions of deamons and traitor marines feast upon the ST universe just as they feast on the 40K universe?
And then the 5th Dimensional Imps get involved, and shit gets proper fucked.
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But as a summary for this: Gore. Lots and lots of it
First.
Ahh….. Q….
Memories……
Shit would happen, obviously.
First.
Ahh….. Q….
That brings back Memories……
Shit would happen, obviously.
Weird double posting issues….
Damn it asger!
Blood and Gore. Lots and lots of it
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Nuff said
I’m sadly woefully inexperienced in 40k lore, so excuse me in that regard.
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Borg, Species 8472 how would they fare?
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What is the make up of these Warp Rifts? Could the best scientific minds Starfleet has to offer figure a way to counteract them? Or shut them down completely?
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When all else fails how fast can the Choas forces travel? Could the Trek ships run fast enough and far enough in time to escape complete destruction?
@Ruliya- Provided the warp works the same way in this metaverse as in W40k, then Chaos would be far, far faster than the ST ships. Warp travel varies, but in can take just a few years to get from one end of the galaxy to the other in W40k. Just getting to different Quadrants in ST takes lifetimes.
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ST races have shown very poor close combat skills, and the W40k universe, Chaos especially, excel at it.
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Hmmm, I see two things that affect this fight. A) ST has far more numbers considering that it’s just the Chaos forces invading an entire galaxy of hundreds of species with millions of ships. But, B) the Chaos influences could start to quickly possess a Universe that has never known it’s trickery. The numbers could start to turn.
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The Borg should be immune to possession and they should be able to assimilate most Chaos forces, not including Chaos Marines and deamons whose own makeup would destroy the technopathogens. But the Borg would be annihilated Cube by Cube from CSM boarding parties and deamons that can warp in anywhere that doesnt have a gellar field to protect it.
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So, the ST universe will witness the end of times from creatures unfathomable. Their worse nightmares will sweep from world to world growing in number as one by one systems fall silent.
That said, I can see some aspect of chaos (i[‘m thinking of Obliterators and Iron Warriors particularly) would probably try and integrate some of the Borg aspects into their own ranks. Iron warriors are rather obsessed with becoming one with the machines, and Borg are wonderful at that. Same for the Obliterators and the Dark adeptus for that matter. The threat of the borg may diminish briefly, but it’ll come back far harder than ever before.
Species 8472 would get trounced, they are each slightly weaker than a tyranid warrior. And the borg would be destroyed by what happened as mentioned from above. The only problem that chaos might have are the incorporeal creatures wandering around the ST universe.
More thoughts on the matter:
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I am curious how Chaos ships would fair against Tricobalt torpedoes. We know that Imperial ships cannot shoot down near Light speed torpedoes and tricobalt can tear holes in subspace powerful enough to pull ships in from other times/universes. Chaos is limited to how many ships they can field while they are fighting an entire galaxy of hundred of advanced species with their own forms of warfare. Should they declare a crusade against Federation space, they would have to go through dozens of massive space bases equipped with hundreds of tricobalt torpedoes.
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So, given the numbers Chaos is going against, it would be a long war where Chaos’s best weapon would be infiltration with possession and influence. They could slowly turn whole systems over to their side which would produce more soldiers, weapons, and ships. If it was just one huge battle, Chaos would exterminate entire species and leave empires in ruin, but they would eventual lose out to attrition.
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Also, a not so well known race, Hirogen. I wonder how they would stand against the boarding attacks of Chaos. Those guys were like Predators and could toss Klingons like watermelons.
Wish I could write a long post but can’t for this day due to IRL.
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I forgot to mention it’s the year 2380 in the ST universe when the warp rifts open.
“ Just getting to different Quadrants in ST takes lifetimes. “
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Actually that is just in Voyager, by the TNG and later warp speed scale it would really take about two years to make the Voyagers trip on regular warp drive. The series producers did not think that was enough time for dramatic tension as well as too short a time for the series to run so they pulled the close to a century number out of their nether regions. It would have been more realistic if they were stuck in another galaxy and trying to make their way home technology wise, but a long trip through intergalactic emptiness would have not made a very exciting series.
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“ ST races have shown very poor close combat skills, and the W40k universe, Chaos especially, excel at it. “
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They do fine for naval boarding parties which are the majority of ground forces seen. Macos from the Enterprise series are quaint old forces with antique weapons by the time of TNG, like musket armed civil war troops. The only modern non-landing party troops ever seen are a ragged garrison cut off behind the lines and fighting defensively from caves for so long only their phasers are left for them to fight with and no consumable arms like the photon grenades or vehicles mentioned elsewhere are left to show, and a wounded soldier in another episode who just laid there and talked so none of his equipment is shown in action and neither is the ‘hopper’ vehicle that he missed boarding. Away parties sneaking around the edges of a war zone trying to avoid contact while performing strategic scouting missions and whatnot does not really give much of an idea of what the all out ground battle capabilities in Trek are.
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“ But the Borg would be annihilated Cube by Cube from CSM boarding parties and deamons that can warp in anywhere that doesnt have a gellar field to protect it. “
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Given the expertise even the lower tech Federation has with interdimentional warps, rifts, and leaks I doubt they would have much trouble working out their own version of a Gellar field. It may even be a simple shield adjustment.
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“ Species 8472 would get trounced, they are each slightly weaker than a tyranid warrior. “
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That is highly unlikely unless 8472 infantry is being compared to Tyrinid fighting vehicle analogs in which case it would have some merit. Ordinary foot verses foot would probably favor the 8472; buck naked they tear through tritanium with their claws and go through hoards of borg like they are Styrofoam stand-ups and they are highly intelligent as shown in “in the flesh” where they were preparing infiltrators complete with working biotech devices like tricorders and phasers that could not be distinguished from the Federation hardtech except by careful sensor analysis, which means they can make and use equipment in the unlikely chance that their natural armaments are not up to the job at hand.
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“ Also, a not so well known race, Hirogen. I wonder how they would stand against the boarding attacks of Chaos. Those guys were like Predators and could toss Klingons like watermelons. “
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Judging by relative strengths between chaos marines and imperial marines in the game (which should carry through to the novels, but with the inconsistent way they write who knows…) the Hirogen should be able to hold their own and it would come down to local circumstance for who wins each skirmish.
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“ –
So, given the numbers Chaos is going against, it would be a long war where Chaos’s best weapon would be infiltration with possession and influence. They could slowly turn whole systems over to their side which would produce more soldiers, weapons, and ships. If it was just one huge battle, Chaos would exterminate entire species and leave empires in ruin, but they would eventual lose out to attrition. “
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True, though the infiltration would be harder to pull off since communications is so much faster and reliable in Trek than in WH40K so when they go into conversion phase on a planet it would be soon noticed unless it was so far back in backwater areas that there would be little or no Trek tech to take over in the process and the local population would be the equivalent of the unskilled rock haulers trope. –
Another consideration is the year, which is two years after the Voyager returned, so in the case of the alpha and beta quadrants the Dominion infiltrations are still fresh in memory and the anti-infiltration thinking is probably still in place, especially in light of Voyagers records of the 8472 infiltration plans on top of that and Starfleet being caught flatfooted by the Dominion infiltration by not taking the “hidden” bugs infiltration from first season TNG seriously enough.
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“ I forgot to mention it’s the year 2380 in the ST universe when the warp rifts open. “
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Cool. Transphasic torpedoes and ablative armor, even if it is just experimental so far, would go a long way to helping the alpha and beta quadrants defend themselves, especially with the speed of propagation of tech improvements in the Federation and supposedly the other major powers in the area. Also the wartime Alliance is recent enough in the past to restart quickly once the defenders realize it is not a local problem.
I love Star Trek (especially tng) but they would lose to a full scale chaos invasion.
The forces of Chaos have crippled or destroyed universe spanning empires for as long as sentient beings have existed.
The leaders of the Star Trek Factions would be whispered promises of power and salvation and paradise like they would never have thought possible. During a time where every alliance has shattered and nightmares tear their way into reality these dark promises could prove to be far more than tempting.
The Star Trek universe could handle a Chaos Space Marine invasion but you cant win a war of attrition against the Daemons of Chaos especially not with science. When a Daemon is slain in the material dimension it is simply banished to the warp for 366 days at which point it will return all the wiser.
However, if we’re treating the Star Trek timeline and the Wh40K timeline as the same thing the God Emperor of Mankind exists somewhere in Star Trek’s human population and a Universe scale Daemonic invasion may be a large enough crisis for The Emperor to reveal himself thousands of years earlier than he intended. Which is where we start getting time travel paradoxes which may prevent chaos space marines from existing. But the Daemons alone would be enough to be honest.
And I beleive the Gellar Fields only protect you from warp space tearing the ship apart while traveling through the warp creating a “reality bubble” if the daemons have been bleeding into real space than a gellar field wouldn’t be all that good at keeping daemons from getting in. So even if someone in the Star Trek universe developed this kind of tech it wouldn’t make a differance unless you’re using warp travel through the immaterium which you need to have psychic abilities to navigate safely through anyway, not to mention that experimenting with warpspace and psychics during a Daemonic invasion makes it even easier for them to attack.
How will the various ST factions react to this?
-Borg- indeference, Star Fleet-Panic, all of the other non-human races-concern
Will they be able to understand and decipher the meaning of the realm of Chaos?
-Hah, fat chance.
Or will the legions of deamons and traitor marines feast upon the ST universe just as they feast on the 40K universe?
-Chaos Shall Not Be Denied, and WE SHALL FEAST ON THEIR FLESH!
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Borg tries to assimilate them and are turned into glorified Defilers.
-Star Fleet either Joins the Lost and the Damned or are destroyed.
-They join because of the Propaganda.
fc06.deviantart.net/fs48/f/2009/173/3/a/Fight_for_freedom_by_torture_device.jpg
-The Blood Creed.
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We have come for your blood.
We have come for your soul.
To destroy the rotten order.
To demolish the world and burn it to the core.
I will not die.
I will return from the warp as a bloodletter to cut their throats.
I will not disappear.
I will be forged in a juggernaught, and crush their skulls under my hooves, between my jaws.
I will not surrender in death.
I will be forged into a Soulgrinder to scorch their earth and flay the skin of their bone.
They will die. They will be torn apart.
I will live so they would see how I kill them.
Never dead.
Never defeated.
@ BC- I doubt the ST universe could create a Gellar field in time, it took the W40k universe 15k years to develop it. Also assumed that since the immaterium has merged with the STverse that the Warp works the same way in the STverse as the W40kverse. Meaning that for FTL you have to travel through the warp. Is this not the case?
“@Ruliya- Provided the warp works the same way in this metaverse as in W40k, then Chaos would be far, far faster than the ST ships. Warp travel varies, but in can take just a few years to get from one end of the galaxy to the other in W40k. Just getting to different Quadrants in ST takes lifetimes.”
-Where are you pulling that bullshit from? 40k Warp travel is, in almost all circumstances, very slow. If by a “few years” you mean upwards of a century.
Also, the writers fucked up a hell of a lot in Voyager, ignoring the initial travel time, they should have left the Gamma and gotten into the Beta quadrant at some point in the last couple of seasons, but no, the writers decided to ignore the cartography.
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Also, no, Star Trek warp travel would not become the same as 40k Warp travel.
“Where are you pulling that bullshit from? 40k Warp travel is, in almost all circumstances, very slow. If by a “few years” you mean upwards of a century.”
-Only if you get lost. And people have been lost for decades on a two week voyage in the Warp, and come out 1 week prior to their expected arrival. And no a few years is correct.
^Meaning the Warp can defy all boundaries of this universe and realm.
“How will the various ST factions react to this?
-Borg- indeference”
I dunno… Universal invasion force by an unknown group of entities that defy all known scientific laws and theory, are unable to be assimilated, and hell bent on destroying everyone? I think the borg would be shitting themselves.
@Kytheros: Sorry to disappoint you:
Average time elapsed on a ship during warp travel:
1 LY = 2-6 minutes
5 LY = 7-30 minutes
10 LY = 14-60 minutes
50 LY = 1.25-4.75 hours
100 LY = 2.5-9.5 hours
500 LY = 12-48 hours
1000 LY = 1-4 days (24-96 hours)
5000 LY = 5-21 days
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Average time elapsed in the material world during a warp travel jump
1 LY = 43-270 minutes
5 LY = 3.5-24 hours
10 LY = 7-48 hours
50 LY = 1.5-9 days
100 LY = 3-21 days
500 LY = 2-12 weeks
1000 LY = 1-6 months
5000 LY = 5-36 months
-From White Dwarf
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5000 LY is roughly 20% of the Milkyway, which means that It could take as little as two and a half years or upwards of ten to fifteen years to cross the Galaxy. Now, ST we know that the Max cruising speed is Warp 8 which means that crossing 120,000 light-year wide galaxy would take 117 years.
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If you don’t believe it, you can go to the ST TM and research it yourself. Voyager was based on the new warp laws designed by Roddenberry himself, so what you saw in Voyager is canon for warp travel.
@Murder
“5000 LY is roughly 20% of the Milkyway,
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crossing 120,000 light-year wide galaxy would take 117 years”
If the milky way is roughly 100-120,000 Light Years in Diameter (You even say 120,000LY) how can 20% be only 5,000 LY? – or is the 40k Galaxy much smaller?
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Where in Voyager does it state Warp Factors btw? I can only remember the Warp-Chart from the ST Encyc. (I’m actually interested in this bit – as I’m not sure if what I’m using constitutes as EU and therefore non-cannon.)
“I dunno… Universal invasion force by an unknown group of entities that defy all known scientific laws and theory, are unable to be assimilated, and hell bent on destroying everyone? I think the borg would be shitting themselves.”
-They’d attempt assimilation. And they don’t really have emotions so yeah indifference.
@RUliya- Warp factors can be found on page 556 in the Star Trek Encyclopedia. Found this site that has reliable information on it: www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Propulsion/Propulsion1.html
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I’m not sure why I worded it like that, but 5k LY is 20% the distance from EARTH to the center of the Galaxy. Here’s a few cool sites for an idea of how big the galaxy is: www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/galaxy.html
gizmodo.com/5820399/this-is-how-big-our-galaxy-is-compared-to-the-biggest-galaxy-of-them-all
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The speeds and times still stand, ST warp is slower than W40k warp. Not that it’s a bad thing for either universe. ST is more about discovery so you dont want everything discovered in the first season.
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I also do not believe that Chaos being faster will help any considering that they are not attacking one massive, spread out empire, but rather thousands of individual empires who can quickly move around defending their territory. The big advantage that Chaos has, other than gods, is that they are fighting a bloated bureaucracy that has its forces spread across the entire galaxy.
@ Murder
Thanx, there’s some interesting links there ^^
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As to the match up itself, I’ll re-iterate a point I made earlier. Would Starfleet be able to use it’s universe renowned technobabble to figure out a way to shut down the Rifts to cut off the Chaos forces from entering the universe?
And the above speeds are the lower-end average, there is the famous “hundreds of thousand light-years in hours” or “instantly travel millions of light-years” for Warpgates. (and of course arrive before you left).
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However on average it can take 2-3 years to cross the Milky Way on an average ship.
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Anyway, Chaos would consume the universe if not for the Emperor, but I am assuming this isn’t happening. In addition to this, it is canon that 10% of the Milky Way in Warhammer is covered in warpstorms.
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Chaos would likely just chill out, harvest souls, and sit impregnably in the Eye of Terror, occasionally leaving to wreck everyone’s shit.
“ @ BC- I doubt the ST universe could create a Gellar field in time, it took the W40k universe 15k years to develop it. Also assumed that since the immaterium has merged with the STverse that the Warp works the same way in the STverse as the W40kverse. Meaning that for FTL you have to travel through the warp. Is this not the case? ”
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WH40K is not known for rapid scientific kitbashing whereas at least the Federation in Trek is. Borg develop defenses against new attacks in minutes, anomalies like a Chaos force warping in should not be a problem to counter once they see it a time or two. Really, with the sheer number of dimensional anomalies that are dealt with in the various series developing protections from mind –bendingly alien dimensional realms is old hat. Seven mentions some very weird dimensions that the borg operate in in throwaway dialog a number of times, and that the fluidic space of 8472 is not particularly unusual. In fact in a Voyager episode captain Janeway uses nothing more than a hand phaser and tricorder to seal some dimensional rifts that were proving to be something of an annoyance. The first few ships or cubes boarded that way would certainly be worse for wear to say the least, but the tactic would not be useful for long considering the track record with that kind of thing in Trek.
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Star Trek warp drive has nothing at all to do with the WH40K warp dimension and there is no reason at all that Trek ships would have to traverse the Warhammer warp space to go FTL. In warp drive Trek ships never leave normal space and in fact never exceed the speed of light themselves, the space in the warp field simply slips along at a rate that to an outside observer appears FTL even though it does not have anywhere near relativistic velocity itself as such (kind of like a new spin on the phrase “going nowhere fast”).
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“ Now, ST we know that the Max cruising speed is Warp 8 which means that crossing 120,000 light-year wide galaxy would take 117 years ”
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That is the max cruising speed of a thirty year old exploration cruiser / troop carrier design (the Galaxy class). Newer ships like Intrepid or Ambassador Class are faster, with Intrepids like Voyager being comfortable cruising for long periods in the lower 9s with up to twelve hours at very close to 10.
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“ However on average it can take 2-3 years to cross the Milky Way on an average ship. ”
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That is not too much more than the speed of a Starfleet fast destroyer like the Intrepid class (despite the 75 year thing that Voyager was based on which is nothing more than a plot device for that one series that contradicts speeds in everything else, including its own stated speeds). On top of that the Federation does not have the fastest ships by a long shot.
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One also must be careful to make sure which warp scale is being used when referencing feats, the original Cochrane scale used in TOS, TAS, and Enterprise, or the new Cochrane scale used in TNG and later (though in the final episode it appears that a third scale is adopted sometime after the series ends since the three engined Enterprise with the starbase phaser slung underneath in the future scenes is said to do ‘warp 13’ which would be impossible in the second scale since warp ten is infinite speed on that one). Phase II (the ’70s Trek series that never made it to air) used the original scale too which may have been the cause for some of the speed anomalies in TNG where they adapted most of the old Phase II (there were not many, but waste not want not….) scripts and may have forgotten to change the warp scale to the new one. In theory a ship travelling warp ten (in second scale) is not really moving it is in some way mapped to “everywhere in the universe at once”, in essence teleportation to any point of the universe instantly.
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I would not trust warp speed essays (or anything else about Trek) from stardestroyer.net, it is like asking the Hatfields for character references on the McCoys; everything they print about Star Trek is very heavily spun to make Trek look bad, and that is when they are not just making things up (like the ‘phaser squad support weapon’ nonsense that was the hinge pin of their “phasers are weak and not usable on dense materials without being huge squad crewed weapons” argument, but it was actually a dismounted ships phaser being powered by broadcast power and the visuals of it failing to cut through the duralloy elevator shaft was an illusion projected by the Talosians (dialog at the end of the show states that it actually cut through it and the ridge behind it in the first second of fire) as anyone who actually watched ‘the cage’ or ‘the menagerie’ would know) .
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Another important factor to remember is that while the Q are the top of the heap there are plenty of races below them that are incredibly powerful and could take on a lot of the demonic stuff head on if they chose to. Organians are a good example of that, and at a much lower level then them are the Douwd who could take on the psykers, and very many other races in between. Also just because Chaos easily corrupts anything in WH40K it does not mean that it would automatically do the same to others who were not exposed to it (even indirectly) since their races creation and before and so do not have the seeds of Chaos in their very core like the Warhammer races do.
@BC, some good points but remember that W40k was not always as stagnant as it is in the present time. Once humanity was THE most advanced race in the galaxy. They created technologies that exceeded even the Eldar but all of that was lost during the fall. Now, humanity looks at technology as something divine and spiritual. To say that ST is more advanced than the W40k universe of the 15,000 mil is just assuming.
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The warp speeds are accurate, read the ST TM book. You can just skim through it at any books store. Roddenbury redefined the warp scale so that future writers couldn’t just make up some crazy speed and do everything or escape every situation. Warp 8 is the max cruise speed, anything over that puts a huge drain and wear on the warp drive and can cause it to overload in a few hours. There are no instances of a ST ship traveling across the galaxy in the speeds that you are talking about, except in ST 5 where they say they are going to the center of the galaxy, which is movie hyperbole and has been explained today as being a reference to the center of politics. And in voyage, transwarp which is basically the Eldar Webway. If the Federation could harness that it would greatly benefit them but it would make the show a terrible experience since they would discover everything in a few seasons.
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Again ST would win in an actual battle, but Chaos doesnt work that way. They would slowly corrupt everything, turning empires against themselves.Personally, I would hope that Star Fleet or the Vulcans could come up with some way to defeat chaos.
@BC I seriously hope you aren’t suggesting that ST will just go and close Warp rifts…that is something you will never be able to prove, and nothing is Star Trek can even remotely compare to daemons in a fight.
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And Murder is right, back in Ye Olden Days of the Dark Age of Technology everything was science, they could casually supernova any stars, reform worlds on a whim, and everything was taken care of by the Men of Iron, but all this was lost. (although technically Chaos knows everything about everything to ever be, or will be, but I’ll save that stuff for later).
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And nothing survives contact with Warp energy, they are instantly destroyed and driven mad/devoured by daemons.
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@Murder
I really don’t think Trek is going to be winning in many straight up fights…what with the gargantuan firepower disparity.
@ Dues, it’s a numbers game in a battle. The ST universe have trillions of soldiers ready to fight and technology that can help them. With all of Chaos’s deamons, ships, soldiers and Space Marines, they would eventually run out of ships and supplies. This is assuming they are in one huge battle of all of ST vs Chaos. But if it’s a war, then yes, Chaos would eventually win. They would topple empires from within, conduct crusades that would wipe out entire systems and flee to the warp to rebuild before any major damage to their forces could be achieved. They would just keep coming and coming until Q had enough and returned the universe to it’s original state.
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Since we all agree Chaos has this in the bag I’m interested in how 1 on 1 forces would face. Such as deamons vs Species. Or how would Star Fleet fair against Terminus Est. I’m also curios how ST weapons such as tricobalt torpedoes would do against Chaos ships or how the borg would manage against a Blackstar fortress.
i remember someone on this site mentioning that chaos marines don’t actually ‘die’ when they die….
i know it sounds stupid but someone did say something about it…
No, they die and never come back. The Nightlords actually had a huge problem because they couldn’t replace their numbers and have been reduced to a single company. The Iron Hands made a brilliant move by taking a Mechanicum gen seed fortress and have begun to create thousands of new Chaos Marines from the stolen organs.
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What you may be thinking of are the deamons, who cant actually die but can be killed in our reality which banishes them to the warp for a period of time. But they always come back =(
ah… well i thought i should just mention it cause i remembered it from another debate…. thx for clearing it up Murder…
and i think there would be alot of change if Chaos appears in ST.(see what i did… change…anyone?)
“i remember someone on this site mentioning that chaos marines don’t actually ‘die’ when they die….”
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“No, they die and never come back. The Nightlords actually had a huge problem because they couldn’t replace their numbers and have been reduced to a single company. The Iron Hands made a brilliant move by taking a Mechanicum gen seed fortress and have begun to create thousands of new Chaos Marines from the stolen organs.
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“What you may be thinking of are the deamons, who cant actually die but can be killed in our reality which banishes them to the warp for a period of time. But they always come back =(”
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Its not really as clear cut as “they can or cant”. Theres alot of factors that would be taken into account. Lets take Murders example of the Nightlords. It makes perfect sense that none of the nightlords can come back, they’re a renegade force, they use chaos not worship it. Nightlords dont bargain away their souls to be eternal minions of a demonic master like other legions/cults do. Thousand Sons is a good example of the opposite, not to mention ole Eliphas formerly of Wordbearers, whos died and got brought back 4 or 5 times now? Its all about understanding the fine print on your daemonic servitude pact! ;-p
Well I dont really consider a possessed CSM a CSM or a CSM that has attained deamon hood a true CSM. They may of had origins as a CSM, but those days are long gone. Also the Thousand sons CSM are almost entirely dust in shells, so I wouldn’t count them either. Of course, if the Federation are fighting these guys then they probably wouldnt care about the finer details =P
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I’ve never heard of a regular CSM who has died coming back to life other than a spell or god bringing them back(Kharn). Are there any examples of normal CSM being killed on the battlefield and rising back up?
I read the wikies of both star trek(saw a shit load of episodes to) and i have every dawn of war game and read the whole wiki of warhammer 40k and i can tell you star trek doesnt stand a chance,if the Q werent the cause of this then sure a Q could probably turn chaos marines into frogs but the mortals of star trek are doomed.
One greater demon can kill off whole well defended planets and thats in warhammer 40k terms,if a demon prince ended up on earth it would find the resistance pathetic,it would just walk into every city it saw and kill anything there,as for corruption when compared the the people of the imperium the humans and aliens in star trek are incredibly soft(i mean realy the star fleet people hesitate to say a few bad words)chaos would corrupt half the galaxy in a month if not faster,all the demons would need to do would be to promise the klingons power and glory,promise the humans wealth and utopia and so on,even hardend space marines get corupted from time to time so i dont see how star trek wouldnt star killing itselfe off in a few months.
When it comes to firepower then its complitely one sided for chaos,cultists may be less skilled in hand to hand fighting than kingons but they are still known to cary chainswords(a cross betven a sword and a chainsaw) and they are complitely detirmend,khorns cultists would be happy to die for their god and they would literaly keep going untill dead,the chaos marines would be complitely unstopable in a head on fight,stuning wouldnt do anythign to them,they would literaly need to be incenerated to die and when fighting plague marines it wouldnt be enough to kill them,their deseases would kill off most of the oponents by themselfes,then we have the obliterators,they could teleport onto the bridge of any ship,kill anything there(yes they are more than powerfull enough to take on hundreds of oponents solo never mind a few security staff) and then go throught the ship killing anythign they saw.
Then we have demons,now the imperium who is known for using overkill has truble killing the stronger demons,on the ground its as one sided as in space,i dont know anything in star trek that could match even the weakest titan,in space the chaos ships are massive,their weapons capable of destroying far stronger ships than the ones star fleet or the romulans have,the dominion would look like pussies to them.
In short star trek is doomed.
(sorry for the long post)
@Murder see Eliphas as he mentioned, he keeps being revived.
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And why would the Iron Hands be making Chaos Marines???
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Also, trillions isn’t all that much to Chaos, what with having (probably) as much territory in the Eye of Terror as the rest of the Imperium, and daemons which will keep coming back. Combine this with…say Fateweaver and his omniscience and anything is possible, including easy adaptation of Star Trek tech if they so wished, as they know everything and could just have daemons possess machines and take their tech.
@Dues Ex
Lets see ST deal with these two bad boys
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Eye Of Terror Pg.56
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“It is an advantage of being a greater daemon that the quality of size, the greatest of restrictions placed on merely physical beings, means nothing. Size is a property of matter only. The disparate pair, allies of convenience if events fell that way, flew through the Door, the narrow pass through which all this time the forces of Chaos had been trying to overcome the Materium. Spread before them was what, in comparison with the galaxy in its entirety, was but an antechamber. Still they could fly here, for the space of the warp and the space of the physical world overlaid one another here, like oil spreading and swirling on water, creating rainbow colours. This was what some mortals called the Eye of Terror, and for rainbow colours there was the suspension and warping of physical laws, making new types of worlds possible.
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The two great daemons flew through entire star clusters which for the moment were smaller than they were. They adjusted their size, dwindling as they approached their destinations. Each selected a suitable planet from their respective domains. They moved those planets away from their warming suns – it did not matter, the planets did not freeze; instead their atmospheres were heated by friction as they moved through the ether-like warpspace-realspace overlap. They brought the planets close together and drew out from the surface of each a long tongue or causeway so that they met and welded together. Here, then, was the field of battle: a verdant bridge between two worlds, lit by a glowing sky, blasted by hot winds, crackling with incessant lightning.”
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Got it from my friends at the OBD
I myself have posted those very quotes on this very website, with even more to boot lol.
@Dues, Iron Warriors, not Iron hands. My bad. Chaos legion do not have their own way of manufacturing gene seed, so they either still it from dead loyalist or like the Iron Warriors, siege worlds that manufacture/store it. The Iron Warriors may very well become the largest of the Chaos Legions based on the amount they captured from Hydra Cordatus.
Oh well. At least i got to post it. I also got one about Void Dragon in a dimensional warping Dyson Sphere on Mars on the 40K respect thread
@Murder ok just making sure, yeah they do that but the geneseed ends up making plenty of Unfleshed too, but yes they don’t do much in the way of recruiting. However other Legions do recruit, like Blood Gorgons, Word Bearers, and even the rogue Soul Drinkers (surprising as they are retarded).
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@StealthRanger (so do I) but yes, quotes are always the best way to prove things, speaking of which, here is firepower for 40k side (small number of quotes instead of me posting dozens).
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“Four Gothic-class cruisers–Intolerable, Invincible, and Righteous Force–awaited four parsecs from target. Each ship carried 100 Hellfire nuclear missles. Each missle 122 warheads, each with a firepower of 5 GT. If boarding action fails, nuclear missles will turn a ship to dust.” Space Hulk Rulebook, p.3 – Scenario Book
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“Every weapon in the battleship’s arsenal was prepared and oriented down at the surface – torpedo arrays filled with warshots that could atomise whole continents in a single strike, energy cannons capable of boiling off oceans, kinetic killers that could behead mountains through the brute force of their impact. This was only the power of the ship itself; then there was the minor fleet of auxiliary craft aboard it, wings of fighters and bombers that could come screaming down into Dagonet’s atmosphere on plumes of white fire. Swift death bringers that could raze cities, burn nations.”
Nemesis, Pg. 375
“The Nightlords actually had a huge problem because they couldn’t replace their numbers and have been reduced to a single company. The Iron Hands made a brilliant move by taking a Mechanicum gen seed fortress and have begun to create thousands of new Chaos Marines from the stolen organs.”
-What the Hell have you been reading? The Night Lords are at least a thousand strong, if Acerbus’s forces are anything to go off of. In Soul Hunter it mentioned two companies, Acerbus’s is probably several forged into a warband large enough to threaten a Craftworld.
@Tau, maybe I’m mistaken, but from the books that I’ve read on them they are constantly dealing with recruitment and supply issues. They act more like pirates, hitting little defended worlds and taking items of value and replacing their armor with fallen sm and csm armor. They also only have two companies that are at strength, 9th and 1st claw. And correct me if I’m wrong but in Soul Hunter, the 1st claw lost half their company trying to impress Abaddon.
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And taking a craftworld is not going to happen, entire Imperial Battlefleets fail at that.
“@Tau, maybe I’m mistaken, but from the books that I’ve read on them they are constantly dealing with recruitment and supply issues. They act more like pirates, hitting little defended worlds and taking items of value and replacing their armor with fallen sm and csm armor. They also only have two companies that are at strength, 9th and 1st claw. And correct me if I’m wrong but in Soul Hunter, the 1st claw lost half their company trying to impress Abaddon.
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And taking a craftworld is not going to happen, entire Imperial Battlefleets fail at that.”
-Read Lord Of The Night. Acerbus’s Warband frightened a craftworld so much that they resorted to stealing their most prized relic the Corona Nox.
“correct me if I’m wrong but in Soul Hunter, the 1st claw lost half their company trying to impress Abaddon.”
-They lost 5th Claw. But then inherited a Raptor Cult from Halasker’s 3rd company as well as 1-2 squads. They lost more fighting the Red Corsairs than they lost on Crythe.
““Every weapon in the battleship’s arsenal was prepared and oriented down at the surface – torpedo arrays filled with warshots that could atomise whole continents in a single strike, energy cannons capable of boiling off oceans, kinetic killers that could behead mountains through the brute force of their impact. This was only the power of the ship itself; then there was the minor fleet of auxiliary craft aboard it, wings of fighters and bombers that could come screaming down into Dagonet’s atmosphere on plumes of white fire. Swift death bringers that could raze cities, burn nations.”
Nemesis, Pg. 375″
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Gundam, Trek, Zoids, Warhammer.. so many sci-fi’s seem to think mountain busting is how you show a ship is powerful. I’m sick of this namby pamby shit. I’m gonna write a novel with enormous stone cathedral city ships which house entire solar system populations on a single deck of a single tower. These mighty vessels are gonna fire fuckin’ QUASARS at each other with their thousand gun broadsides. These will be the light scout ships of (insert love craftian race here). Show folk how gods properly wage war.
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You know for a fact, Deus, that a certain mary sue teenager that we all want to punch in the face is going to technobabble up a solution on how to deal with these problems. Oh no.. there’s a problem picard and the gang are confronted with *yawn* wait for the kid to solve it, yeah, see.. there he goes saving everyone’s asses again, and changing the channel… now.
@Sauro
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” I’m gonna write a novel with enormous stone cathedral city ships which house entire solar system populations on a single deck of a single tower. These mighty vessels are gonna fire fuckin’ QUASARS at each other with their thousand gun broadsides. These will be the light scout ships of (insert love craftian race here). Show folk how gods properly wage war.”
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Culture, Xeelee, and Downstreamers (others too) would still beat them lol. (maybe not Culture but still).
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“You know for a fact, Deus, that a certain mary sue teenager that we all want to punch in the face is going to technobabble up a solution on how to deal with these problems. Oh no.. there’s a problem picard and the gang are confronted with *yawn* wait for the kid to solve it, yeah, see.. there he goes saving everyone’s asses again, and changing the channel… now.”
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THEN WE SHALL RESIST!!!
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On a side note, have you seen the new Armored Core 5 Doomsday trailer?
“Culture, Xeelee, and Downstreamers (others too) would still beat them lol. (maybe not Culture but still).”
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I’ve heard Culture’s top tier.. but.. I don’t actually pay that much attention.
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On a side note, have you seen the new Armored Core 5 Doomsday trailer?
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It made me throw up a little in my mouth.
@Sauro they are just not as high as the other two.
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The trailer just crushed your hopes and dreams about a less crazy Armored Core? Or did you just not like it?
I can’t stand dubstep. I also dislike how much energy the Armored Cores still have. I want them to be a little clunkier.. but I understand they have to appeal to the “I like to swerve left and right at 2000+kph!” idiots who began with AC4/fA too. The trailer also changed the feel of the series. The game has a “war sucks, and we’re all stuck in it, and we’re all jaded bastards because of it” feel.. the trailer has a “America! Fuck yeah!” feel. Glorifies the concept of murdering everyone in your path. Lancer pointed out to me how the trailer goes perfect with that exact song. I get all the psycho I need with crazy super robot stuff. I want my real robot scenarios to be.. somber.. but my annoyance will pass in time, I suppose, when I get my ICBM launching quad to pester people with.
“I’ve heard Culture’s top tier.. but.. I don’t actually pay that much attention.”
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Xeelee use galaxies as construction material and building blocks and fire neutron stars at .99c as standard weaponry
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Downstreamers sodomise the Xeelee with 0 effort
I have to agree with you on the clunky parts, which is why Armored Core 3 is my favorite, however, I do like any sort of Techno, so
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However Armored Core is supposed to be darker so I see your point there too.
It can, ultimately, match either feel, I guess.
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War fuckin’ sucks camp.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwibKw_jcZU&feature=related
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Fuck yeah! camp
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsxdh7WaRUs
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So does Wes save their asses (for the umpteenth time) or does he get eaten?
Thanks for the info, Tau. Do you know what the deal with the Eldar at the end of Soul Hunter was about? The Farseer said they were going to kill the hunter of souls or something.
“ @BC I seriously hope you aren’t suggesting that ST will just go and close Warp rifts…that is something you will never be able to prove, and nothing is Star Trek can even remotely compare to daemons in a fight. “
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While they may not be able to close the big ones they could most likely keep out boarding parties unless it is being sent by one of the more powerful daemons than usually send those off. In Voyager ‘year of hell’ they modified the shields to protect themselves from changes in the time stream which is something more difficult to do than keeping out a point-to-point dimensional rift.
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“ I really don’t think Trek is going to be winning in many straight up fights…what with the gargantuan firepower disparity. “
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Trek has no shortage of very powerful races, the Federation is actually quite low on the power scale and gets by with tricks and diplomacy for the most part. Just a few of them that could take on daemons are the Organians, the Melkotians, and the Douwd, with dozens more at least. The Organians could even duplicate the bridged planets trick if they wanted to; they usually drag around their old home planet for sentimental reasons anyway.
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Anything less than the daemons could be handled by the regular ST races though it would be tough fight (unless of course the WH40K forces get too cocky and underestimate the Trek technology like a lot of others do and spread themselves too thin and get quickly and soundly pounded for their hubris). A minor example of the understated power of one of the midrange tech devices is the MP5-like phaser rifle used in early TNG (though it should probably be called an SMG since that is the role it occupies in Starfleet security force equipment) actually has the same energy output per second(according to the numbers given in “the minds eye”) as a present day quad .50cal antiaircraft turret, and that is before any force multiplying chain reactions there may be (which is something the creeping disintegration seems to imply) which is not at all bad for a compact easily handled weapon that probably weighs all of five or six pounds at most.
“I also dislike how much energy the Armored Cores still have. I want them to be a little clunkier.. but I understand they have to appeal to the “I like to swerve left and right at 2000+kph!” idiots who began with AC4/fA too.”
I totally feel ya Sauro, i liked the old days when AC was the middle ground between the slow methodical duels of mechwarrior/battletech and the spastic 1 mech to slay them all gundam style.
Now it feels like i need to do 3 lines of cocaine just to keep up with whats happening on my damn screen.
Now you know how I feel with games today. I used to have one job in video games; jump. That’s all I had to do to save the princess. Now if I want to save that same damn princess I have to find a priest, get his blessings, find a golden lantern to trade to the barber for a comb that can be used to bribe the guard with the mustache to open a cell that has a broken pipe that I can crawl down into fighting demons while licking the lead paint so that I can keep up my fire breath before I reach a brick wall that has the option menu on it so that I can start the game. Then the complicating stuff starts =(
@Dues Ex
You had to one-up me twice didn’t you? =[
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Anywho, those are some pretty cool quotes. Didn’t you say that Rogue Trader focuses on the very low end stuff?
“Thanks for the info, Tau. Do you know what the deal with the Eldar at the end of Soul Hunter was about? The Farseer said they were going to kill the hunter of souls or something.”
-We’ll find out in Void Stalker
Was really hoping someone would say that kid gets eaten…
“Was really hoping someone would say that kid gets eaten…”
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lolwut?
@BC I certainly hope you can prve any of what you said as it requires some ironclad evidence to do things as you suggest. Specifically: Closing warp rifts, the races taking on daemons (even the weakest of them can survive re-entry unscathed), suplicating bridged planets, the races of Trek being able to take on non-daemons, seeing as Trek weapons at their highest are maybe gigatons (discounting technobabble) and 40k ones can be up to petatons easily. Oh and the mp5 phaser thingy.
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@StealthRanger I apologize if it seems like I was trying to one up you, I was not.
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And while yes Rogue Trader does tend to have a bunch of low-end stuff (particularly acceleration) but neither of the quotes are from Rogue Trader.
@Deus Ex Machine
lol don’t worry i was joking about the ‘one-up’ part
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I thought the 5 GT thing was from RT
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*shrug*
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Anywho, we agree that ST is fucked by the daemons?
@Stealth oh ok lol, yes we agree.
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And the 5gt is from Space Hulk.
I wonder how anything in ST short of the Q deals with daemons larger than star clusters >=]
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Or how the ground forces deal with Greater Daemons like Skarbrand
Its simple…they don’t. However they are only that large in regions where the Warp and Realspace overlap. However rifts can be opened anywhere and can be expanded.
“The kid” is a particularly annoying character whom I won’t name in full who showed up a lot in The Next Generation and pretty much every episode with him was.. blegh. It’s not the actor’s fault, its the writers..and how they forgot to do things like try to give him flaws.
““The kid” is a particularly annoying character whom I won’t name in full who showed up a lot in The Next Generation and pretty much every episode with him was.. blegh. It’s not the actor’s fault, its the writers..and how they forgot to do things like try to give him flaws.”
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Perhaps my gravatar will achieve this >=]
@Sauro
Is it the same kid who went off with the Traveller? And then got cut out of Nemesis xD
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Yea no one likes him
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I think Trek takes this one…
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In so many places it actually gets ugly >.<
Hmmm. Nah, Daemons curbstomp the Trekkies
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Hey An’ggrath, dinner is served. Come out and play!
I’m not sure if you missed my meaning… How do I say this without being crude?
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The Chaos guys do…nasty things to Trek… many, many times…
But you said that Trek takes this?
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Or is it just me? * embarrassed*
“I think Trek takes this one…
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In so many places it actually gets ugly >.<"
You kind of have to read it all, I spaced it for effect xD sorry for the confusion.
Oh now i get it
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I feel stupid now *embarrassed*
@SR
*huggles* don’t be silly
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Yea, I so the What If? asked, what would the Trek guys do? And I think we’ve found our answer. It isn’t pretty… but war never is.
Aww thanks :3
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Well, they’d be corrupted into Chaos Cultists or something i think
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Provided they’re not dead from the utter and complete mind rape of Chaos
I was confused at first too, but now all is clear.
Ohhh… butt sex
This is a major stomp on Chaos side. Unless Q gets to help Star Trek. But thats unfair. How about Chaos Gods too? Wait a minute….
Hey An’ggrath! Dinner has been served, come out and play!
“i remember someone on this site mentioning that chaos marines don’t actually ‘die’ when they die….”
There actually are many instances of this. In the current CSM codex, chaos gods are known for “respawning” certain chaos marines for lack of better word. the reasons are often varied. Sometimes they do it to keep their favorites safe, others to carry out a certain, task, and sometimes just cause they were bored. It’s fairly common apparently, but certainly not reliable.
Lucius the Eternal, Kharn (arguably), and Eliphas (kinda), are examples of this.
@Lizard God
You feel it’ll be made all better, if NamcoXBandai DOES go through with the Kind of idea i’ve been suggesting, all along, after all?
Meantime, does the Star Trek races fight back, or does Crusher get eaten while killing out twilight’s Bella 1st?
“ @BC I certainly hope you can prve any of what you said as it requires some ironclad evidence to do things as you suggest. Specifically: Closing warp rifts, the races taking on daemons (even the weakest of them can survive re-entry unscathed), suplicating bridged planets, the races of Trek being able to take on non-daemons, seeing as Trek weapons at their highest are maybe gigatons (discounting technobabble) and 40k ones can be up to petatons easily. Oh and the mp5 phaser thingy. “
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I do not have to provide “ironclad proof” that Trek units close warp rifts, they do not exist in Trek or at least if they do it is not under that name so it would be a little hard to point them out. However, they do close all kinds of spacial, dimensional, or time anomalies in many episodes and that will have to suffice since the argument that a specific thing cannot be done even though they do the general thing that the specific one is part of simply because it is not explicitly shown that they do the exact specific thing is not a valid debate tactic. A few random examples of anomaly/rift/rip/tear/whatever closing:
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* In ‘time and again’ captain Janeway uses her phaser to close a chronal rift (one that was generated as a rescue attempt by Voyagers crew by the way, so they are obviously capable of more than just closing the things). In a later episode she does it again using a phaser guided by hand held tricorder readings (I think it may have been in ‘deadlock’ with one of the holes between the two versions of the ship, but it has been a while since I saw it and I am not sure if it was that one or another one and it was just a minor incident in it anyway).
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* In ‘All Good Things’ Picard and crew(s) not only shut down an anti-time anomaly, it turns out that they created it in the first place. It also shows the ships traversing the alternate dimension caused by the rift to get to its core, though in this particular case the pocket dimension is damaging to their anti-matter containment and causes the ships to explode a short time after. That also brings up a point that the warp engines (with some tinkering) can be used to send the ships into other dimensions as well as other timelines (the time slingshot effect in the case of the latter). Another example is in “Is There in Truth No Beauty?” where a madman sabotages the engines and causes the Enterprise to jump to a kind of hyperspace; once they find their way back to their entrance coordinates with the help of the Medusan ambassador they use the warp engines to tunnel back to realspace.
*Several times (this is taking too long and I do not have the time right now to look up the exact episode names) in DS9 it is made clear that the Federation has the technology to destroy the stable wormhole linking the Bajoran system to the gamma quadrant and they will reluctantly use it if there is no other choice to save Bajor and the Federation. Another wormhole feat is Project Pathfinder where Starfleet uses its MIDAS array to form a micro-thin wormhole out to the delta quadrant to establish communications with Voyager though at the time they did not have the capability to widen it enough to get the ship itself through.
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Remember too that this is just stuff that the Federation has done, and there are plenty of more advanced races out there in the Trek universe.
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It is no secret that Roddenberry enjoyed thumbing his nose at the religious fundamentalists that make up at least a significant amount of the TV censor boards and that he liked to see how far he could push before they balked and demanded the script element be removed (he had several hilarious monologues he did at conventions about it, at least one of which was made into an LP). While he was unable to sneak in a scientific God analog into TOS past them he did manage to sneak in Angels in the form of the Organians and of course there are now the Q in TNG and later for the God part.
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I have been unable to find the moving planet thing directly, it may have actually been from one of the manuals instead of the live action stuff and so of questionable canon though it was in “a strategic location between the Federation and Klingon boarders” in ‘errand of mercy’,”on the way to DS9” in ‘whispers’ and in still another radically different location on the map behind Remmik in ‘conspiracy’. On top of that I think some of the dialog mentioned Organia being close by the silicon plague planet in the Enterprise episode ‘observer effect’ which would put it in yet another location. The different locations could be writer sloppiness of course (and really probably was), but it could also be considered canon instances of the planet moving in support of it.
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Some dialog from ‘errand of mercy’ that shows at least some of what an Organian (in this case Ayelborne) can do:
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“SULU [OC]: Our power’s gone. Our phaser banks are dead.
KIRK: Stand by, Sulu.
KOR: My fleet, it’s helpless.
KIRK: What have you done?
AYELBORNE: As I stand here, I also stand upon the home planet of the Klingon Empire, and the home planet of your Federation, Captain. I’m putting a stop to this insane war.
KOR: You’re what?
KIRK: You’re talking nonsense.
AYELBORNE: It is being done.
KIRK: You can’t just stop the fleet. What gives you the right?
KOR: You can’t interfere. What happens in space is not your business.
AYELBORNE: Unless both sides agree to an immediate cessation of hostilities, all your armed forces, wherever they may be, will be immediately immobilised.”
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In that episode and the Enterprise one an Organian also brings everyone who died during the those episodes back to life, in the case of the Klingons that includes those disintegrated by weapons fire and blown to pieces by bombs rigged by Kirk and Spock in their guerilla attacks on the Klingon occupation force, and a Klingon destroyer scout blown up by the Enterprise earlier.
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A very short version of the MP5 like phaser and its output calculations (I am getting tired of repeating this, I have already posted the full calculations on other threads several times) the output of that particular phaser according to dialog in ‘the minds eye’ using the input and efficiency numbers given there comes out to about 0.91 megajoules per second at the emitter. The muzzle energy of a .50 cal BMG round is about 14 to 18 kilojoules per round which means that it takes 51 to 65 rounds to approximately equal a one second phaser discharge. The fire rate of an M2 machinegun varies with the exact configuration but generally air-cooled ground vehicle mounted ones have a cyclic rate of about 550 rounds per minute which comes out to about 9 or 10 rounds per second which means that it takes at least four M2’s to equal the raw energy output of the phaser (actually five or six of them, but I rounded down heavily since the quad mount is fairly common and so more likely to actually mean something to the reader). And this power is just the raw output before any fancy chain reactions in the target add in more effective energy to the hit. It is no wonder that one of the paramount officials said that they are insanely powerful for a hand weapon and that there is simply no realistic way to show a firefight using them at their full potential.
First of all the argument for closing Warp Rifts is insufficient. Not only are they generally much larger, but they are using a completely foreign energy, not anti-time and other bullshit. So no, unless there is something incredibly similar we won’t assume they can close them.
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I see the planet thing was debunked by yourself.
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That fleet immobilization is pretty damned impressive, how they are doing it is unknown, and if we knew it could make a huge difference. We don’t know if maybe the crew was being interfered with, or even a component of the engines.
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And while cool, the lasgun can have power in the megajoules easily (depending on source) and they are flashlights to Marines and Daemons.
Hey Deus Ex. Seeing as this relates to the topic in some way i have a question for ya
“ I see the planet thing was debunked by yourself. “
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No, not debunked as much as that the original source while probably non-canon has supporting indirect evidence that it may have been canonized whether it was intentional or not. The planet thing is not really that important anyway, it is not needed to show that the Organians are powerful.
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“ That fleet immobilization is pretty damned impressive, how they are doing it is unknown, and if we knew it could make a huge difference. We don’t know if maybe the crew was being interfered with, or even a component of the engines. “
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In the show a number of different things were done, including heating up the hand weapons to a degree that they could not be held (but below temperatures that would destroy the weapons, the Organians are polite to a fault and do not engage in vandalism without a very good reason), forcefields throwing crew trying to touch control panels back, and generated power simply disappearing into nowhere before it reached the things it was supposed to power. How exactly those things were achieved was not laid out in the dialog, just like the other things were left a mystery like how Ayelborne was in three widely separated locations in two different quadrants at exactly the same time having three different conversations (though on the same subject) as well as locking down two major war fleets, the occupation troops, and the Enterprise landing party at once. It is however subtly implied that it is what a divine miracle really is.
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“ And while cool, the lasgun can have power in the megajoules easily (depending on source) and they are flashlights to Marines and Daemons. “
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True, the hand weapons on either side are ridiculously powerful, even the least powerful of the energy ‘rifles’ like the phaser SMG analog and the lasgun. It would be nice if Paramount actually published numbers on the rest of the hand weapons, I am curious how the full sized phaser rifles seen later in the series compare to real world tank cannons.
” It is however subtly implied that it is what a divine miracle really is.”
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Oh lovely, going to be difficult to quantify.
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“True, the hand weapons on either side are ridiculously powerful, even the least powerful of the energy ‘rifles’ like the phaser SMG analog and the lasgun. It would be nice if Paramount actually published numbers on the rest of the hand weapons, I am curious how the full sized phaser rifles seen later in the series compare to real world tank cannons.”
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I was always wondering what Trek would be like in an actual battle, we have seen some potential with that one grenade launcher (can’t recall the name). However we can only use displayed feats unfortunately.
That’s a whole lot of words per post going on!
Two problems with the trek verse closing warp rifts argument.
1. Whether or not they can be closed, daemons don’t exactly sit by idly, when a gate to the mortal world gets open. They start to pop up randomly on any nearby planets, warships, stations, (depending on who or what is leading/directing them). Star trek has to actuall FIGHT through if they want to close it.
2. Warp Rifts are easily created. A single psycher and/or a few sacrifices are all it really takes to make a small warp rift (big enough to let a troupe of lesser daemons or a single greater daemon through). A larger rift can be created by a powerful chaos sorceror, A daemon lord, a large sacrifice, or even alot of emotions being pooled in a single area. There was an instance where a warp rift was created because the populace of a planet was deep in sadness and depression. The result was an entire host of nurgle daemons showing up out of seemingly nowhere.
Chaos can create warp rifts and daemon portals, far quicker than Star trek can hope to close them (assuming they ever had the ability to). And without the imperium, eldar, and the dozen other factions to show up and destroy any major strongpoint chaos gains in the materium, before they get a chance to expand it, chaos will just expand out and consume star trek.
“ ” It is however subtly implied that it is what a divine miracle really is.”
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Oh lovely, going to be difficult to quantify. “
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True, but since it is a quality rather than a quantity that is hardly surprising.
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The mortar-like grenade launcher was never directly named, but it is thought to fire photon grenades. Apparently they come in a variety of sizes and strengths since there is dialog about thrown photon grenades (unfortunately never shown) and unless Krypton suddenly joined the Federation no one is likely to be able to hand throw one of the approximately three inch ones shown being fired (in ‘arena’) by the mortar beyond its kill zone considering that 1200 yards was considered dangerously close according to Kelowitz (one of the tactical officers in the scene).
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I would like to see an all out Trek ground battle too, it would probably be very different from anything in the real world considering the nature of the weapons unless paramount decided to ignore the weapon capabilities and just recreate some contemporary battle with phasers like they do for most of the little away party skirmishes shown and only showing the full power of the weapons when used as tools for destroying aqueducts and clearing rocks from cave-ins and such. I am especially curious as to what the ‘hopper’ is supposed to be, dialog has it carrying the equivalent of a little over two platoons or so, and something that big (about like a wingless C130 from the troop capacity) would be an incredible fire magnet so it would have to be very well armored and shielded from groundfire, but still seems too likely to get nailed from orbit by a ship for practicality (hoppers could explain the huge main hanger bay on the Galaxy class ships though if the hoppers are flat enough). Cardassian assault skimmers sound like something along the lines of a flying or ground effect Bradley or BTR analog, and the Klingon ‘AFV’ is probably some kind of tank like the name implies so tanks and APCs probably still exist in some form (though it looks like Starfleet probably uses the larger shuttle types for APC roles). Explosive weapons would probably be very small, since a bomb small enough to be hidden in a Bajoran earring in ‘wrongs darker than death or night’ had a kill zone of twenty meters.
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My comments about rift closing were more about keeping small ones from being opened for boarding parties against Trek ships and things of that nature than closing the big ones (while even that is not totally impossible it is not very likely either unless maybe one of the very powerful races like the Organians or Metrons does it). In fact if the rifts are part of a Q game even the Organians would not be able to close them until the Q allowed them to.
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Another factor illustrated by episodes like ‘catspaw’ for this particular matchup is that unlike most sci-fi series magic does exist and can be accessed and interacted with via more conventional technologies; tech oriented types (like the Federation is mostly composed of though they also have a few races like the Medusans who use NPT as well) refer to them as “non physical technologies” (usually they are depicted as being a kind of variant of psionic technologies which makes a certain amount of sense). While the underlying energies causing things to happen magically are often strange and take a while to get a handle on, their end effects are usually manipulation of mundane forces like gravity, kinetic energy, nuclear binding forces or whatever and even if they cannot figure out the ‘magic’ energies involved right away they can usually do something to disrupt whatever is going on at the mundane layer for a while they figure the rest out.
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Another important fact about the spread of Chaos is that in WH40K all psionics are tainted with chaos to at least some degree, while in Star Trek that is not the case. In fact most psionic races in Trek are more in tune with the ‘light and order’ side of the universe (which seems to be the natural path there) than the chaotic side and would provide something of a buffer against the effects of Chaos instead of being a vector for its spread like Psykers and mages are in the Warhammer universe. In theory Human PSIs could (and probably would) go either way since both orientations are shown in various episodes for them.
Here’s to hoping they make a good Star Trek ground battle in the future.
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“My comments about rift closing were more about keeping small ones from being opened for boarding parties against Trek ships and things of that nature than closing the big ones (while even that is not totally impossible it is not very likely either unless maybe one of the very powerful races like the Organians or Metrons does it). In fact if the rifts are part of a Q game even the Organians would not be able to close them until the Q allowed them to.”
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This is an important thing to consider, whether or not the Q are in on it, as I could see the lesser Warp Rifts being closed by the Organians and maybe Dowd or something, but the timeframe for closing it would almost certainly be after the daemons make it through.
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The whole “magic through tech” thing works in both verses, but I am in doubt of the Trek forces using tech for Warp stuff, at least not for thousands of years.
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“Another important fact about the spread of Chaos is that in WH40K all psionics are tainted with chaos to at least some degree, while in Star Trek that is not the case. In fact most psionic races in Trek are more in tune with the ‘light and order’ side of the universe (which seems to be the natural path there) than the chaotic side and would provide something of a buffer against the effects of Chaos instead of being a vector for its spread like Psykers and mages are in the Warhammer universe. In theory Human PSIs could (and probably would) go either way since both orientations are shown in various episodes for them.”
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This isn’t quite true. Tau for example, can be possessed despite not really having a soul. or being tied to the Warp at all, so…yeah. And almost everyone in Trek would be easily breached by dameonic forces, or psykers, as they aren’t used to this kind of stuff like 40k is. This, combined with their inablity to train in psychic things (due to not having psychics) will guarantee easy access.
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Also, I invite you to think of this. Lets say that…Picard is walking around the Enterprise, drinking some Earl Grey tea, hot of course. He reaches to touch a panel to go to the bathroom to take a piss, but, lo and behold, tentacles just sprouted from the panel and, possessed him. He then acts completely normal, however he is in fact, daemonically possessed. He then decides to fly the Enterprise to the local Federation HQ where he downlaods all the tech info he can. This is completed and he decides on some “random” location to go exploring and GASP! There are some Chaos ships waiting there. Also, conspicuously, the Warp drives aren’t working. So he has everyone fight against them as best as he can, but they are majorly outclassed. So as he orders everyone to abondon ship as the daemons manifest aboard it, he smiles and takes the Enterprise over to the Chaos ships and hands over everything. He becomes Warlord Picard of the Earl Grey Legions and then leads armies of Treks own tech against them
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This is one possibility, however I really don’t want to get into Tech of the Week. This stealing of tech is of course optional, as 40k tech works just as well.
“ The whole “magic through tech” thing works in both verses, but I am in doubt of the Trek forces using tech for Warp stuff, at least not for thousands of years. “
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While it may be an artifact of the very long timeline, it at least appears like scientific advancement was never quite as fast in WH40K as it is in Trek though the long epochs allowed them to go quite far with tech. In a way it is more realistic than Trek, since things that would realistically take years to develop whether or not advanced tools are used usually go from an unanticipated need to finished product in a matter of hours in the course of an episode. They would probably not develop anything for full control of warp energy for a while at least, if at all, but enough to prevent small tactical warp rifts from being used for snap raids on protected areas like ships and installations would probably not take too long, especially since figuring out how to keep transdimentional invaders out of starships is something they have considerable experience with.
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“ This isn’t quite true. Tau for example, can be possessed despite not really having a soul. or being tied to the Warp at all, so…yeah. And almost everyone in Trek would be easily breached by dameonic forces, or psykers, as they aren’t used to this kind of stuff like 40k is. This, combined with their inablity to train in psychic things (due to not having psychics) will guarantee easy access. “
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The soul thing could actually go two ways (if it is even anything besides Imperium propaganda (yes, I am one of the weird people who actually like the Tau and the Squats and find the IoM overbearing hubris annoying)): Having no soul would mean that they have nothing to corrupt, or conversely that they are basically just organic machines and therefore would have no defense against something coming in and taking over. The fact that none of the Tau have fallen to Chaos (except for a demon or whatever forcibly moving in and driving the Taus body around like a suit of power armor which is not the same thing at all) does strongly point to the corruption ability of the demons not being absolute even in the Warhammer universe.
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No psychics in Trek? I must admit to not getting that joke if it was one. Trek has very many psi’s of various types, many of which are in the Federation though the most powerful ones are not members of it. Two of the three major signatories to the original articles of Federation are significantly psionic in fact; Vulcans are (with a few exceptions who they consider to be handicapped) touch telepaths though not all are trained to use it fully, and Andorians are either strong psi’s or psi blockers depending on their sub race. Even humans have a growing minority of fully functional psi’s and all Starfleet personnel are tested for it (in ‘is there in truth no beauty’ the growing minority is mentioned as well as that all envoys to the Medusans must be telepaths, and the fact that psionic index rating is part of Starfleet personnel jackets is stated in ‘where no man has gone before’). While Trek does not come right out and talk about ascension like Stargate does it is just as much a part of the universe as it is in SG, though it is implied that humans are not quite ready for it and in general it is something races eventually evolve into if they survive long enough. It is very strongly implied that Trek psi is driven by the ‘light side’ of the universe, not the ‘dark’. Psi is nothing new to the Trek universe and training is readily available if one has the potential and looks for it hard enough.
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Even the borg have psi potential though the Queen tries to stamp it out as an ‘aberration’ and some of them could mentally escape into the pocket realm of Unimatrix Zero (which is a weird fuzzy blend of psi and tech) when they are in their regeneration booths.
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“ Also, I invite you to think of this. Lets say that…Picard is walking around the Enterprise, drinking some Earl Grey tea, hot of course. He reaches to touch a panel to go to the bathroom to take a piss, but, lo and behold, tentacles just sprouted from the panel and, possessed him. He then acts completely normal, however he is in fact, daemonically possessed. He then decides to fly the Enterprise to the local Federation HQ where he downlaods all the tech info he can. This is completed and he decides on some “random” location to go exploring and GASP! There are some Chaos ships waiting there. Also, conspicuously, the Warp drives aren’t working. So he has everyone fight against them as best as he can, but they are majorly outclassed. So as he orders everyone to abondon ship as the daemons manifest aboard it, he smiles and takes the Enterprise over to the Chaos ships and hands over everything. He becomes Warlord Picard of the Earl Grey Legions and then leads armies of Treks own tech against them
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The Earl Grey Legion is a nice touch, it would have been a good schtick if they went further with the Locutis thing too.
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A number of episodes had possessions or other mind control plots like that though they never worked for very long in the case of the Enterprise (any of them) or Voyager. In the case of TNG part of the reason is probably the triumvirate style command on the big ships in place of the more conventional single-root monolithic command tree seen in contemporary navies and the smaller Starfleet vessels like Voyager. One part of the triumvirate is the ships counselor whose duty is to make sure something like that does not succeed (and in the case of Troi she is very familiar with the empathic feel of Picard’s and Riker’s minds so any tampering would not remain hidden for long unless it got her too (which is not at all easy since she has her races mental defenses, it is her telepathic mind speech/memory probe ability that is weak) and the position is always filled by someone with extra senses and defenses like Troi or Guinan for that very reason. Unusual commands like the ones in the scenario above can be challenged by the others and if they are not satisfied that everything is on the up and up they can veto it and start a full investigation.
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If Picard did go to a memory station or starbase to pick up tech info the cat would definitely be out of the bag and the men in the long white coats would soon come calling; capital ships have the federation equivalent of an STC onboard so that would be unusual behavior in the extreme. In the case of things too classified to be included in the ships databanks, they would be too classified for Picard to access without prior authorization from Starfleet command or possibly the Federation council if it was sensitive enough.
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The Chaos space Marines dont have quite the manpower or supplies to take on the whole Star Trek universe there’s no doubt about that.
The bit that would kill the Star Trek universe is the Daemons and the fact that you cant technobabble them away. They are the anti-logic, the science-null. The energies that feed them are change, decay, creation, bloodshed, hatred, deception, love, hate and ambition. As long as the universe continues to exist they will be well fed. They always win eventually.
Even the Q aren’t beyond the reach of Chaos, especially if the Q’s main strategy is to change things which would only make Tzeentch stronger.
Q probably plans to use this scenario that the debate is based on to shake things up and unite some of the Trek factions and then cut the ties with the WH40K universe when that is accomplished. Watching and analyzing the Q episodes from a writers point of view you can see that while he always puts it some other way when he explains things what is really accomplished is something good some part or person of the Trek universe so that plan would be consistent with that. It’s probably a kind of the ultimate in ‘boot camp’ therapy for some problem perceived by the Q.
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The demons do not have to be “technobabbled away”; Warhammer has its demons but Trek has its Angels (like the Organians and Metrons) which would tend to balance out to a degree.
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As to the “technobabble” part even the demons have to interact with the physical universe in some way, even if indirectly, to get anything done and the less powerful ones could probably be fought using that vector. Mages in the Warhammer RPG could occasionally get the better of one of them though it was usually by outtricking them somehow (which is something Trek is based on too since Roddenberry’s first rule is that the heroes never win by brute force alone).
“While it may be an artifact of the very long timeline, it at least appears like scientific advancement was never quite as fast in WH40K as it is in Trek though the long epochs allowed them to go quite far with tech. In a way it is more realistic than Trek, since things that would realistically take years to develop whether or not advanced tools are used usually go from an unanticipated need to finished product in a matter of hours in the course of an episode. They would probably not develop anything for full control of warp energy for a while at least, if at all, but enough to prevent small tactical warp rifts from being used for snap raids on protected areas like ships and installations would probably not take too long, especially since figuring out how to keep transdimentional invaders out of starships is something they have considerable experience with.”
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Well we don’t really know how fast the DAoT stuff was developed, but yes, they almost certainly couldn’t have matched the Trek speeds. And yes, the precedent is there for them to be able to prevent smal lscale Warp rifts, as the Necrons can do it. However, this would be a long endeavour seeing as how batshit insanely high-tech the Crons are, so I could see it eventually happening.
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And sorry, by the “no psychics” thing I meant none that interact with the Warp, I know they have psychics (however they tend to be on a lesser cale than 40k psychics).
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And they could just have a Greater Daemon possess the crew, jump aboard the ship, and then fly to HQ and possess everyone there, or manifest daemons inside the information centers and control it, or, they could ask Fateweaver how everything works since he knows everything, or even walk into Tzeentch’s Fortress and look at his books that have all knowledge.
” And they could just have a Greater Daemon possess the crew, jump aboard the ship, and then fly to HQ and possess everyone there, or manifest daemons inside the information centers and control it, or, they could ask Fateweaver how everything works since he knows everything, or even walk into Tzeentch’s Fortress and look at his books that have all knowledge. ”
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True enough, the possession thing would probably work with a greater daemon involved, though I am still not sure what that exercise would be in aid of since most technology information is for all practical purposes public knowledge, and most Starfleet ships even have the stuff that isn’t public in their databases already. The really classified stuff like what is really going on in the Talos stargroup or projects like the old genesis project would probably not be of much use to the daemons.
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In the case of the starbase invasion or even worse Starfleet HQ invasion things like that would probably attract the notice of the Organians or Metrons or other “angel” types so it would probably not be quite the pushover it seems on the surface. The situation would not be too different from Babylon5 except that the difference in power between the ‘Old Ones’ and the ‘new races’ is a lot bigger than it was in B5.
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What we have is more like two mostly separate wars going on, one at a very high level most likely out of sight of the ‘normal’ races unless one or the other side decides to show off and the one between the normal ‘material’ beings at the low end. There is a lot (at least relatively) of information available on the daemons in Warhammer but very little about the angel types in Trek (usually just one episode and possible later dialog references for each) so battles at that level would be anyone’s guess just like most of the other deity level battles where the closest one can get to a resolution by direct comparison is the roughest of ballpark figures. The tech vs tech end of it would be more likely to produce usable results.
a flight of cairn class tombships show up, rip up anything that moves disapear before starfleet/whoever appear, rinse and repeat
” a flight of cairn class tombships show up, rip up anything that moves disapear before starfleet/whoever appear, rinse and repeat ”
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Since when were the Necrons forces of Chaos? Since by the rules of the scenerio the only
forces involved are from Trek and the Chaos faction of WH40K the Necrons would not be in it. If they were then it would be an entirely different fight for a different thread so idle speculations like that are worthless.
Lol, fail at mentioning Necrons.
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And yes, it would be better for all involved if neither side tries to magic up tech and such, or try to implement new tech. It would be a better debate to just use what we know.
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And since this isn’t a vs it is likely that some guys join Chaos, and Chaos warbands go around terrorizing and pillaging/sacrificing.