Here we have a match-up of two species-devouring races in the Wraith from Stargate up against the Magog World Ship from Andromeda.
The Wraith fleet will be as it was at the beginning of Stargate Atlantis, with the sole exception of it having one ZPM-powered Hive Ship. And the Magog World Ship is as it was at the beginning of Andromeda.
Both sides are transported to the void between two random galaxies. The Wraith Fleet will start off 100,000 km away from the Magog World Ship. The Magog can win simply by destroying all the Wraith ships, while the Wraith Fleet must either cull or kill 80% of the Magog. The Wraith are informed that the Magog number in the trillions.
Since I’m dumb, I’m gonna go with the numbers again like I did on that armada thread.
So nice to see SG taking a place of prominence here.
Cool. Yet another quality vs quantity match.
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Though, we should have first settled the other Stargate debate before starting this one.
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I’m not participating anyway.
Trillions of magog, a vast quantity of swarm ships some of them at least if not all fitted with there own PSP weapons.
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The wraith showed no capability of being able to blow up planets let alone stars and while in a 1 v1 fight against a Magog they would win in this scenario they are humped.
They were starved at that time. Remember that they did go up against and forced a race that was capable of blowing up planets and stars, and forced them to stalemate or hide. We saw the Wraith when being extremely limited in resources, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have devastating capabilities.
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Of course, being starved and short on resources does have to count for a lot as well. Having a single ZPM to opperate will be a major set back.
Really isn’t a scenario to favor the Wraith. Most of their kick against the ancients was due to the clone facilities they had to instantly breed massive armies to crew the ships they grew as fast as they could.
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The PSP weapons would be of limited effectiveness against the wraith hives. We’ve seen hive ships follow a 304 through the accretion disk of a black hole which suggests they have one hell of a strong internal structure. Any weapon sized black hole is likely to punch a nice round hole clean through the hive, however is unlikely to have the force to tear the hive apart when the larger one didn’t.
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As for combat themselves, the wraith fleet will be massively outnumbered, that much is obvious. They seem to have only around 60 or so active hives at the start of Atlantis. Typically hive to cruiser ratio is 1:2 so at least 120 cruisers and an unknown number of support craft. We have seen a few resupply craft throughout the series which carried human food during the wraith/lantean war. The ZPM powered hive will do a lot to counter the magog though. It was shown in the last episode to not only be capable of easily brushing aside 304’s but also of out-fighting a city ship. It was only defeated when a nuke was detonated inside it.
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Tactically I’d suggest the wraith perform a series of hit and run attacks. They would take far too many casualties in a straight up fight against the numbers the magog have, however if they hyperdrive out, then into orbit of one of the magog worldship planets they could drop off large number of troops, fire at opportune targets and jump out again.
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On the ground the wraith are far superior to the magog, especially the overly primitive ones we see typically infesting the world ship. The wraith boast virtually perfect immune systems and cellular regeneration making them immune to all but specifically tailored virus’s. As such the magog poison would be fairly ineffective. It also has a limited range. Magog would be susceptible to stunners, and as far as i can recall the wraith are at least as strong if not stronger. If the wraith teams cover one another they can easily feed on their enemies, keeping up their strength, and the better fed a wraith the stronger and better its regeneration. If they manage to get a good foothold on the planets they could also set up cloning facilities to go for a greater push.
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By landing troops and engaging in a ground war on the world ship, the wraith would significantly leverage their capability. The large numbers of magog warships would be less effective against troops fighting through underground tunnels in the worldship, and firing on the worldship will kill off more magog then wraith.
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Lastly, and I’ve no doubt some people hate me saying this, wraith have time on their side. Hibernating they can last centuries, even millennia. Magog rely upon other races to gestate their young. If the war drags on, every kill the wraith make is a kill the magog can not afford.
For some reason while I’m looking at this match I had a sudden urge to suggest a fight between Vader and Voldemort.
I would say the Wraith probably could feed off the Magog, but it wouldn’t be as effective as humans, since the enzyme wouldn’t work.
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Tactics were never the Wraith’s forte. They just appear to drop out of hyperspace and go straight in. The ZPM powered hive would likely be at the head, and would take most of the punishment. They’d launch fighters against the swarm ships then it’d be an all out battle until the Darts are gone. Then the swarm ships would latch on and Magog would board.
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But hey, the Andromeda was able to survive, with PIS, so I’d say this isn’t a stretch at all for the Wraith to pull out a victory (I’d take a Hive ship over the Andromeda any day). Then again, the Wraith can be amazingly dumb tactically – and the World Ships do have much larger PSP guns on the surface.
Tactics were not really a problem, they managed to out think the ancients several times; and we did see both Michael and Todd come up with very very nasty surprises very often. It’s just that in SGA they had spent the last 10,000 years as the single most advanced race in that galaxy with easy access to their food supply who could hardly fight back, for the most part. They had problems when another advanced race showed up and sponged off ancient tech. When you think about it though, they successfully invaded several industrialized worlds with only one hive ship. Sateda being an example, they were equal modern humans in the ground warfare technology we see. Also they took on the evil-Asgard and kicked their ass when their fleet arrived in pegasus.
They’ve always relied on their overwhelming numbers against their opponents. They will be on the opposite side of the battle here. And the Queens are in charge here, not Todd.
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The Queens will want to cull every Magog they can to feed on, which eliminates the best strategy for them.
The queens were in charge during the war against the ancients and the breakaway Asgard. Also, against the Asurans they didn’t rely on numbers, they used hacking, and they also used sentient computer virus’s against the Tauri. Actually when you look at all the stuff they’ve done a fair bit is sneaking around when they know they cant take something head on.
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All that aside though, if the federation is allowed to fly competently and not just sit still letting itself get shot then so too are the wraith.
But none of that says anything about their combat tactics. We know they fought the Ancients in straight up combat before they eventually got a hold of an Ancient warship and used the ZPM to grow their ships.
Actually they used those ZPM’s to power clone facilities. As far as we know the ZPM hive that attacked earth was a first.
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On the tactics side we do see them retreating when they know they haven’t a hope. Cruisers do it all the time if whatever they are fighting manages to knock out the hive they are covering. They later come back with reinforcements and so on.
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We may not know the specifics of their combat tactics but they are at least as intelligent as humans, many more so due to age and experience, so they would at least equal us in thought exercises such as tactics.
While never specifically said, to my knowledge, the ZPM would almost definitely have been used to aid in the growth of a Hive ship. Having an unlimited number of Wraith drones would be inconsequential in a war where naval combat reigns supreme. Unless the Wraith had thousands of Hive ships to begin with – which is impossible because -
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1. We know the Ancients seeded the galaxy with humans.
2. We know the Wraith evolved from the Eratus bug and humans – which would take tens of thousands of years.
3. We know the Ancients stumbled upon the Wraith sleeping on a single planet.
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We can conclude the Wraith were able to evolve from humans, which would require tens of thousands of years, without the Ancients knowledge.
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” On the tactics side we do see them retreating when they know they haven’t a hope.”
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In that regard, they’re smarter than most Goa’Uld.
“Having an unlimited number of Wraith drones would be inconsequential in a war where naval combat reigns supreme. Unless the Wraith had thousands of Hive ships to begin with ”
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And we also know that wraith ships grow based upon the power provided to them. When one took over keller and began to grow it drained power from Atlantis and grew at an increased rate. In a matter of days at the most it had covered most of a tower. So I would say even with wraith power systems they could make ships very very fast. Remember also, it was stated in the first siege of atlantis that the wraith were producing ships faster then atlantis could shoot them down and resupply itself. Taking into account how few drones it takes to take down a hive we would have to conclude the wraith were making hives at an insane rate.
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“In that regard, they’re smarter than most Goa’Uld.”
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True, I think goauld ships didn’t even start to dodge until the ori showed up.
Worse case scenario the Wraith could overload the ZPM to take out the world ship.
That, is something I hadn’t considered but you are dead right.
” Worse case scenario the Wraith could overload the ZPM to take out the world ship.”
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The Wraith can’t leave until the victory parameters are met. They’d be caught in the blast.
“The Wraith can’t leave until the victory parameters are met. They’d be caught in the blast.”
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There is no match stipulation saying that neither can make hit and run attacks so yes the Wraith could just send the single ZPM Hive in the middle of the World Ship and overload the ZPM with the other ships safely in hyperspace.
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And besides there would be a short period of time between the ZPM overloading and the blast wave reaching the Hives 100,000km away so as soon as the World Ship is destroyed they can jump away thus avoiding your argument altogether.
@Reaper
1. An overloading ZPM has been attributed with releasing enough energy to destroy an entire solar system. 100,000km is shorter than the Earth and our sun. That’s still way in the blast range.
2. For the sake of a match, no ZPM-overloading. That’d make it a stomp. I don’t do stomp matches.
taking out a strategy? I’ve never seen that before, i understand why but it is very odd.
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-anyways can anyone show what these magogs are capable of?
i’m sorry but i think the magog win.the reasons are that the wraith r outnumbered by trillions and each magog is much stronger then a human so the stunners will likely need several shots to take them down so if they landed they’d be swarmed from all sides and likely ripped apart.the ships wouldnt get close enough for that cuz the psp’s shoot smaller blackholes therefor they r denser and therefor more powerful then a normal blackhole next even with a detonation of the zpm they’d survive becuz it survived a super nova and was merely slowed by it.the ships would also be swarmed by millions if not billions of swarmships and becuz of the size of wraith ships thats alot of surface and potentially a few million magog getting into there ships and overwealming the crew as they would literally climb of eachother 2 get and eat the wraith.the magog r quite smart even at the begining becz they pilot space ships though idk who makes the ships they do pilot them in search of prey next i believe they could infest the wraith becuz they infest more then just humans also the wraith from the begining of the series seem to be much weaker then the wraith that took on the ancients.the evidence is when shepard and makay had to take one on that had rationed itself for the full 10,000 years and was only killed by a drone weapon.they are likely like the iratus bug and incorporating a little of each human they consume into there own dna since thats what the iratus bug did making the wraith within a few thousand years instead of millions of years.so thats why i think magog win.
Vicious, I see you are still refusing to employ proper grammar.
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“Each magog is much stronger then a human so the stunners will likely need several shots to take them down”
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Physical strength has nothing to do with a person’s ability to fight the effects of a stunner. The stunner sends massive amounts of electrical energy into the body, which overloads the nervous system. Many people have been shown to have a slight resistance to them, however. This can be explained because they have either endured so much physical pain that their nervous system is partially numbed, or that their nervous system is uniquely capable of handling that much energy. So I don’t see the Magog requiring any more or less energy to take down.
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“the ships wouldnt get close enough for that cuz the psp’s shoot smaller blackholes therefor they r denser and therefor more powerful then a normal blackhole”
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Smaller ≠ more dense. All black holes are the same size. The only difference between black holes are their mass. A smaller black hole has less mass and vice versa.
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“the ships would also be swarmed by millions if not billions of swarmships and becuz of the size of wraith ships thats alot of surface and potentially a few million magog getting into there ships and overwealming the crew ”
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This is really the only viable strategy for victory for the Magog. The Wraith could cut huge swaths out of the swarm ships with their cannons, but I don’t recall if they have AA guns. Whoever wins this battle would win the match imo.
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“also the wraith from the begining of the series seem to be much weaker then the wraith that took on the ancients”
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The strength of the individual Wraith depends on a number of factors. Wraith only grow stronger as they grow older since they do not age. And the strength and healing factor is directly proportional to the amount of time from when it last fast. In the event you had cited, the Wraith was over 10,000 years old (growing stronger each year) and had just fed off of 1.5 people. Yeah, it was pretty strong, but not for the reasons you believe. But just so there’s no room for rebuttal –
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“they are likely like the iratus bug and incorporating a little of each human they consume into there own dna since thats what the iratus bug did making the wraith within a few thousand years instead of millions of years.”
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Evolution only requires tens of thousands of years, although I will admit the Wraith would take longer since they’re going from bug to a humanoid. And the plague that forced the Ancients to the Pegasus galaxy was 5-10 million years prior to the events of SGA, which would give the Wraith, possibly, millions of years to evolve since we do not know when the Ancients seeded the galaxy.
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@ Cana
The Hive Ship to Cruiser ratio is 3-1.
@vicious
-since you are the most recent Magog supporter, i’ll address your post.
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“the reasons are that the wraith r outnumbered by trillions and each magog is much stronger then a human so the stunners will likely need several shots to take them down so if they landed they’d be swarmed from all sides and likely ripped apart.”
-trillions in individual people, yes(these types of fights usually get determined by space warfare), but i’d have to see magog strength feats; mainly due to the fact that wraiths backhand humans about a dozen feet through the air. and if it does get into hand to hand combat the stunners won’t need to do anything other than stun, because all the wraiths would be wanting to do is cull them anyways.
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“the ships wouldnt get close enough for that cuz the psp’s shoot smaller blackholes therefor they r denser and therefor more powerful then a normal blackhole”
-that’s not how it works.
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“next even with a detonation of the zpm they’d survive becuz it survived a super nova and was merely slowed by it.”
-could you post the video of this? how far away were they? also, are the “worlds” of the world ship, actually worlds?
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“the ships would also be swarmed by millions if not billions of swarmships and becuz of the size of wraith ships thats alot of surface and potentially a few million magog getting into there ships and overwealming the crew as they would literally climb of each other 2 get and eat the wraith.”
-can i see something saying they have that many ships, also, IIRC the wraith ships can change their internal pathways and are usually not that wide of hallways anyways(making numbers a non issue). and a really important point….they don’t seem to have shields from what i could tell in my brief research about them. that would make it hard to even get to a wraith ship in the first place(if once the durability of their ships is shown, it is shown to be weak enough).
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“next i believe they could infest the wraith becuz they infest more then just humans also the wraith from the begining of the series seem to be much weaker then the wraith that took on the ancients.”
-you’ll have to explain this more, i don’t quite get what you mean by “infest”.
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well, here’s some random stargate things.
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-hive to 304 size comparison from episode “Allies”. stargate.wikia.com/wiki/File:Hive304.jpg
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-size of 303(if anyone wants to figure out it’s size and can from this picture be my guest, it will allow us to figure out a rough estimate for the hive ship from it). homepage.ntlworld.com/raxor.steve/x303_02.jpg
-and a sideish profile of it to help with the scaling. static.flickr.com/30/45980347_e3f1ad790c.jpg
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-I also wonder how the pathogen that makes hive ships would affect magogs and how useful that would be to use as an offensive strategy(doesn’t have to make ships out of them, killing is just fine also and biowarfare is very efficient).
“also, are the “worlds” of the world ship, actually worlds?”
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Yes, it is 20 planets joined around a star.
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“-you’ll have to explain this more, i don’t quite get what you mean by “infest”.”
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They lay their eggs inside peoples gut.
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“can i see something saying they have that many ships”
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There is no exact number – not much is known about them. But I only remember swarms of a few hundred or so, but that was against one ship – But hey, its been ages since I watched Andromeda.
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“-hive to 304 size comparison from episode “Allies”. stargate.wikia.com/wiki/File:Hive304.jpg ”
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I’ll raise you one. A single Wraith Hive Ship is 5km long.
“2. For the sake of a match, no ZPM-overloading. That’d make it a stomp. I don’t do stomp matches.”
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I hate when tactics are removed, but we’ll make do.
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“the reasons are that the wraith r outnumbered by trillions”
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Numbers only matter if you have the capacity to employ them. In this particular case, the tunnels in the world ship would act to the wraiths advantage in case of an assault and the disadvantage of the magog as the tunnels massively limit the amount of magog that can attack any given wraith force.
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“and each magog is much stronger then a human so the stunners will likely need several shots to take them down so if they landed they’d be swarmed from all sides and likely ripped apart.”
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Even strong wraith only take two, and Ronan is the only one to take three. Magog have not had any previous exposure to wraith stunners so they definitely have no acquired resistance. Also, the world ship is mainly tunnels, the chances of massive ground engagements on the surface is slim.
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“the ships wouldnt get close enough for that cuz the psp’s shoot smaller blackholes”
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First off, Sg have hyperdrive and could just jump into orbit, totally bypassing the magog fleet. Secondly SG’s sublight is far superior to anything I remember in Andromeda. Thirdly the black hole guns would just shoot a tiny hole in the wraith hull, which will promptly regenerate. Wraith structural integrity flew through a real black hole without the ship being torn to pieces, these mini artificial black holes will be of limited use.
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“with a detonation of the zpm they’d survive becuz it survived a super nova and was merely slowed by it.”
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Vastly different energy profiles.
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“the ships would also be swarmed by millions if not billions of swarmships and becuz of the size of wraith ships thats alot of surface and potentially a few million magog getting into there ships and overwealming the crew as they would literally climb of eachother 2 get and eat the wraith.”
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Countered by first off the large firepower put out by wraith ships, darts and when they get inside, stun rods/bombs. The large area of effect wraith stun weapons would easily take care of magog boarders.
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“next i believe they could infest the wraith becuz they infest more then just humans also the wraith from the begining of the series seem to be much weaker then the wraith that took on the ancients”
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Wraith immune systems are unlikely to be effected by a parasite.
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“the evidence is when shepard and makay had to take one on that had rationed itself for the full 10,000 years and was only killed by a drone weapon”
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The more recent the feeding the more powerful the regeneration; and magog are giving them lots to feed on.
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“This is really the only viable strategy for victory for the Magog. The Wraith could cut huge swaths out of the swarm ships with their cannons, but I don’t recall if they have AA guns. Whoever wins this battle would win the match imo.”
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The wraith can always just FTL out to a decent distance and take up long range bombardment. When the swarm ships begin to close they jump to somewhere else. Lacking FTL or FTL weapons the magog are helpless.
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“The Hive Ship to Cruiser ratio is 3-1.”
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Oops, was working off rough memory there.
“I hate when tactics are removed, but we’ll make do.”
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I hate stomp matches.
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“Countered by first off the large firepower put out by wraith ships”
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Swarm ships are no bigger than fighters. The only way the Hive Ships have to stop them is to fire their heavy turrets at them when they are still far enough out – hopefully take a few out with each shot. I don’t recall them ever using AA guns, but they’ve never been in a position to use them though…
“Swarm ships are no bigger than fighters. The only way the Hive Ships have to stop them is to fire their heavy turrets at them when they are still far enough out – hopefully take a few out with each shot. I don’t recall them ever using AA guns, but they’ve never been in a position to use them though…”
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Remember how wraith never deploy darts to attack another hive unless they are already out? Weight of firepower kills the darts left right and center. Also remember, the shot doesnt stop when it hits one little ship, it’ll keep going and take out anything in its path. I don’t think we’ve ever seen swarm ships pull the sorts of dodges that darts or puddlejumpers have, and the hives can hit them. As soon as swarm ships close, and wraith sublight doesnt mean they ever actually will, the wraith can just hyperjump to gain more room.
i was trying to do proper grammer and yes it is how the stunners work.the enzyme they stole from the wraith and used on people is proof.yes the worlds are worlds but they are hollow.yes that is how blackholes work.thats what everyone is worried about with the new super colider.giant blackholes exist at the center of galaxies but there r smaller denser more powerful blackholes.no that isnt how long it took.the whole war lasted about 200 years from start to finish.look at the first episode and then the episode where they had more power and so were able 2 watch the hologram again.the magog put around 12 young into hosts which then feed off them to grow killing them and are very hard to remove becuz they wrap around main veins arteries and organs and will attack the host if disturbed.thats what i mean by infest.i cant show you a video of the magog sun going nova but it was only crippled and around 2 years later was fully operational again and then immune to nova bombs which is what dylan used to cripple it the first time.i believe it was one of the season finallies.can someone tell me what IIRC PIS and CIS are please?
“.thats what everyone is worried about with the new super colider.”
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No, that is what those who do not understand the science worry about; Black holes that small evaporate almost instantly.
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“giant blackholes exist at the center of galaxies but there r smaller denser more powerful blackholes”
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No, just no. Black holes gravity is directly proportional to their mass, the bigger, the more powerful.
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“the magog put around 12 young into hosts which then feed off them to grow killing them and are very hard to remove becuz they wrap around main veins arteries and organs and will attack the host if disturbed.”
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So the wraith just reach in, pull them out, and heal the damage. Maggots are less dangerous than an entire P90 magazine no matter which way you cut it. That is assuming they don’t just get killed off by the wraith immune response.
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“PIS and CIS are please?”
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PIS = Plot induced stupidity.
CIS= Character induced stupidity.
IIRC = If I Remember Correctly.
@vicious
Holy crap your posts are impossible to read/follow.
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“giant blackholes exist at the center of galaxies but there r smaller denser more powerful blackholes”
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Okay, imagine the universe is massive, 3-dimensional checkerboard. Every “box” is the absolute smallest space that can be occupied – it can’t be partially occupied – and is many times smaller than even an electron. A singularity, or black hole, is when a lot of mass is squeezed into that single “box.” Imagine all the mass of a star squeezed down into the smallest unit of space possible. That is a black hole. Now since a black hole cannot take up any more or less space, the only thing that can change is the amount of matter squeezed into the “box.” Super massive black holes, the ones found in the center of galaxies, are much more dense than a normal black hole, but are in no way “smaller.”
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“thats what everyone is worried about with the new super colider”
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What they were worried about (were being the key word) was mini-black holes. They fact they were “mini” wasn’t the problem. What they were afraid of was those black holes attracting the matter around them and eventually growing to the point where they would consume Earth.
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“IIRC PIS and CIS are please?”
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If I Recall Correctly, Plot-Induced Stupidity, and Character Induced Stupidity.
“What they were worried about (were being the key word) was mini-black holes. They fact they were “mini” wasn’t the problem. What they were afraid of was those black holes attracting the matter around them and eventually growing to the point where they would consume Earth.”
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Which as Cananatra pointed out, shouldn’t happen. I say shouldn’t because scientists have learned to never say things like “can’t” “won’t” “impossible” etc.
what is the size of wraith ships compared to andromeda?the magog easily hit andromeda while it was dodging so i dont see the wraith doing better especially when there are more targets.
“what is the size of wraith ships compared to andromeda”
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The Hive Ships dwarf the Andromeda (its 4x as long, and 2.5x as wide.
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“the magog easily hit andromeda while it was dodging so i dont see the wraith doing better especially when there are more targets.”
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The Magog will have to spread their forces out between hundreds of ships. The Wraith easily outclass the Andromeda. Their weapons will cut swaths of the swarm ships out with each volley. But millions of them, if they can actually do that, might be too much.
well this isn’t official but it seems to be close to what that person figured out in your link Eric.
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gmod.game-host.org/bar/pics/SG/lSsJY0.jpg
“http://gmod.game-host.org/bar/pics/SG/lSsJY0.jpg”
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That’s an awesome picture.
It really is.
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I say the wraith win this one though.