Suggested by JHud
In yet another battle that pits Star Wars up against Star Trek, this time in the shape of 100 Stormtroopers against 100 Red Shirts from the original series.
Scenario:
Fight takes place in Roman Colosseum (Think of the movie Gladiator)
Equipment – Standard
Stormtroopers are from the movies only
(Suggested read – The Stormtrooper Fallacy
Red Shirts are non-main characters from original series.
Who wins in this epic fail?
Troopers by way of better uniforms.. I guess.
When the Troopers start spraying their blasters all the redshirts get hit since they have bad luck.
I’m not sure if we’re supposed to debate assuming they are both competent and not hung with plot death, or to debate jokingly as to which fails the most including plot death. . .
Temptation to go tear apart the storm trooper article like wet tissue paper rising..
*clears throat*
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Why Stormtroopers fail.
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www.cracked.com/article_18858_the-biggest-star-wars-plot-hole-explained-by-science.html
While I haven’t finished reading the article yet, Hermit, I came across the commonly spouted most shots fired miss in real combat. MOST shots are suppression fire, intentional misses to provide cover or pin a target down. You can do this when you have a fully automatic rifle. It’s a lot harder to do when you have a weapon which is usually depicted as single fire in the movies. Your accuracy should be way higher.
Le gasp, stormtroopers can hit people despite being surrounded by smoke.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbn-Ox1XawI
Stormtroopers by way of better armor and better everything.
…. Stomrtroopers win… It’s lolworthy.
If this is a serious match, then yes, the 501st will probably be tough for your standard red search to get past, Lowk. if this is a Joke match, then we’re probably using the deathstar bumblefucks who couldn’t even hit Han in a tight hall way.
Red shirts have never lost to 3ft teddies while the “BEST” stormtroopers got owned by them.
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Oh and phasers on widebeam wipe out swathes of troopers.
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Of course if we include PIS etc the fight ends when both sides wipe each other out.
Best match ever.
Will the redshirts manage to get hit more than the stormtroopers manage to miss?
“Red shirts have never lost to 3ft teddies while the “BEST” stormtroopers got owned by them.”
Only a matter of time before some random troll brought up that dead horse.
Wow, watching redshirts die is just as funny as Stormtroopers failing.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3cL1Aofy90
“Red shirts have never lost to 3ft teddies while the “BEST” stormtroopers got owned by them.”
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You see all Ewoks are force sensitive, but that’s okay because Sithtroopers
images.wikia.com/starwars/images/8/89/Stormtrooper_Saber_art.jpg
So it’s like the fail version of an unstoppable force versus an immovable object. In this case it’s blasters that can’t hit anything versus red shirts that can’t be missed. Hmmmmm…….
If everyone is out in the open in two groups and ready to go on a signal like it was some kind of gladiator game than it would simply be a mutual firing squad situation with few if any survivors, let alone ‘winners’. If it is two groups that happen to be of the same number that encounter each other in an old Coliseum as part of a larger battle somewhere and are able to get into the cover of the columns and stuff then it would be different.
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On the Stormtrooper side there is the advantage of specialist troops, they are essentially marines though at the time of the trilogy they supposedly vary quite a bit in quality from the deadly competence of the last few Camino style clones left through the varied quality of the freeborn recruits to the abysmal 200 pound idiots that are the Spaarti clones (it is not until years later that Thrawn figures out the ysalamiri trick that allows the Spaarti process to produce halfway competent clones) that are only good for cannon fodder. The only thing they do is fight and train for fighting so even lackluster recruits eventually become skilled at it.
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The Redshirts in comparison are not specialist troops at all, they are general ships services (which is why people like Uhura and Scott wear the same uniforms yet are not ‘redshirts’ in the fighter sense) personnel assigned to security detail and given some extra training and phaser range time though some do seem to specialize in it and spend relatively little time in other ships services departments in their careers. In the original universe James T. Kirk’s father is a prime example of the career-long security officer though in the Abrams-verse trek he seems to be command track instead (essentially a goldshirt though it probably does not make any difference in that nasty disorganized mess of an organization in the movie since rank, department, experience, and everything else seems to be ignored in favor of whoever wins the fistfight whenever an issue comes up). What the Redshirts lack in continuous combat training is at least partially made up for in their multidiscipline approach in the way of versatility though. Like the Stormtroopers most of the detailed information of them is EU or in scripting guide descriptions of them, neither side gets much air time and the little they do usually is usually not very complimentary hence the derogatory ‘Stormtrooper effect’ and ‘Redshirt’ tropes.
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Equipment wise the Redshirts have the advantage of ‘fully automatic’ weapons that are extremely versatile and even have widebeam settings (though it may not be useful to use widebeam against the Stormtroopers because of their armor since they only seem to use the setting on soft targets in the series). Even if the phasers have trouble with the armor on disintegrate, disrupt, or stun settings (which they should not considering they disintegrate rocks and bunker walls just fine) using the heat setting to cook the troopers in their armor would result in a win too though it would be rather grisly. The blasters toughness and reliability advantage is not likely to make up for its slower rate of fire in this though its characteristic of putting all of its damage in packets instead of over time may help a little with snap shots.
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I would predict a win for the Redshirts, 100 people hosing down a confined area with continuous-beam weapons would make an intense killing field that even Stormtrooper skill and armor has little chance against.
“Only a matter of time before some random troll brought up that dead horse.”
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You mean the indisputable G canon fact about what the emperor said about the quality of the troops being the best he has and the indisputable G canon fact that they got their asses handed to them?.
@EMO
You really are a tiresome little thing aren’t you?
Red Shirts lose badly. While the Storm Troopers aren’t that skilled compared to big shots like Luke Skywalker and Dark Vader they can still easily wipe out the red shirts. The red shirts lost quite possibly every fight they’ve ever fought. I don’t remember them ever winning.
PIS is the main reason that stormtroopers miss constantly. otherwise, they raped an entire galaxy and lots of Jedi… and there is an inifinant amount of them. Red shirts are just.. well… you know. Cannon fodder
Well, PIS is kinda the main reason that red shirts die. Something needs to heighten the plot, so they kill someone off.
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Besides, Kirk has said in a Piece of the Action that one hand-held phaser could knock out the side of a building. And stormtrooper armor really sucks.
Stormtroopers ROFLstomp
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Theres no doubt about it
Too bad stormtrooper armor isn’t even designed to withstand blaster shots, let alone phaser beams.
www.factpile.com/2678-the-stormtrooper-fallacy-endor/
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Read ‘em and weep
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Stormtroopers ROFLstomp
Epic stomp is epic. To disprove the Stormtrooper Sucks fallacy-
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We have three legitimate battles that Storm Troopers are involved in. On the Tantive IV, we see Stormtroopers blast run through the ships defenders while only losing a very small handful. Then we see Stormtroopers secure take over Echo Base before the Rebellion could get its final transport away. Then comes the Endor business. In the beginning of the battle, we see the Stormtroopers utterly decimating the Rebels and Ewoks. The battle then begins to turn.
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We actualky have a real life battle that parallels Endor. The Battle of Mogadishu. Elite American military teams went into battle without proper armor, equipment, and supplies because they had no faith in their opponents ability to fight them. Their overconfidence led a 30 minute strike to a 15 hour scramble to save their own lives.
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The Stormtroopers were the most Elite fighting forces in the galaxy. They had no reason to believe they could fall to a handful of Rebel commandos and under-sized bears – especially when they ran the Rebels out of their base and scattered the Ewoks into the woods.
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If you want a simple answer, its merely PIS when you look at the other two battles involving Stormtroopers.
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Now to the actual fight, the Stormtroopers have a clear advantage because of their rate of fire. A Stormtrooper can drop two or three Red Shirts while a red shirt has to pull the trigger and wait for the second long burst to end. But the training and prowess already give it to the Stormtroopers.
What Eric said
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Stormtroopers for the FP Stomp Award
How are we supposed to present an award when we’re not even sure which one is nerfed MORE?
This is confusing, and we STILL didn’t even find a way to present an award for either Kerrigan or Mengsk in their own match that asks which one is more better off dead than the other, yet.
Stormies for the whatever award this match should give…
@Major
Do we even know WHAT is the goal in order for either side to gain the award, though?
“Do we even know WHAT is the goal in order for either side to gain the award, though? ”
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Kill each other, so Stormtroopers win… it’s what they’re trained to do.
@Major
You sure that’s what the match suggestor would have had in mind for the conditions, though?
I was expecting something in the vein of Kerrigan vs Mengsk, for some reason or another.
“You sure that’s what the match suggestor would have had in mind for the conditions, though?
I was expecting something in the vein of Kerrigan vs Mengsk, for some reason or another.”
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Well it’s the assumed scenario unless otherwise specified, and it has not been otherwise specified.
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Stormtroopers for the FP award… still.
@Cross
How come I don’t have a rank D:?
@Sg
You’re a Sargent, then.
Red Shirts don’t even wear armor of any kind.
Stormtroopers for the FP ROFLstomp Award
I’m going with Stormtroopers.
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In real life, rapid fire weapons have “low” accuracy. Within Star Wars, the Stormtrooper rifle is a full auto-weapon, and Stormtroopers shoot from the hip more often then naught.
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In the recent wars between America and Iraq and Afganistan, it was calculated that it took roughly 250,000 bullets to kill one insurgent. Stormtroopers average something like 1 in 100. ZOMG! Stormtroopers are more accurate that American soldiers!
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Some Stormtroopers are also Clone War veterans. There is no way you’re going to tell me that Clone Troopers are not bad ass.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wmUipQwV4Y&feature=related
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Eric already pointed out that good soldiers can get into rather ridiculous situations if they are over confident.
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“Phaser on wide beam”…. yeah too bad a Red Shirt has never shown themselves to be competent enough to actually bother with that ever even when it would be appropriate. … Goes double for the competent Trek characters too I might add. That was used, what, twice? In 21 years of television? The Stormtrooper’s stun setting is scene more often per porportion (twice [to my recall] in 11 years [counting each movie as a year, which I didn't do for Trek]).
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Besides Stormtroopers have Thermal Detenators which can be equally destructive as a Wide Beam setting.
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In the Colosseum there isn’t much cover. This would initially give the Red Shirts and advantage I think. They are more accurate, although they shoot less. But once the suppressive fire from the Stormtroopers starts to thin their numbers dramatically, and presses them into the small pillars for cover, it would only be a matter of out flanking the Red Shirts in cover while continuing the suppressive fire. And Troopers are trained for that.
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Less seriously: Stormtroopers die from rocks thrown by teddy bears. Red Shirts die from plants. Personally I bet on the people that don’t get killed by something that a vegetarian literally eats for breakfast.
“Less seriously: Stormtroopers die from rocks thrown by teddy bears. Red Shirts die from plants. Personally I bet on the people that don’t get killed by something that a vegetarian literally eats for breakfast.”
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Well i guess thats one way to one-up the teddy bears>stormtroopers dead horse LOL
I’m thinking the troopers have this. The problem is even against the most base opponents in Star Trek, the Red Shirts literally can not avoid death. They seem to massively attract it. A storm trooper can miss his shot, and the bolt will still hit some reflective surface and come back around to hit a red shirt.
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Also, LOL at Eric trying to say movie-troopers don’t suck. Also, Original, Clone Troopers ARE NOT bad ass. They fight super-retarded robots. This is not impressive. Although they can at least figure out how to mass enough fire power in one direction to bring down a jedi, although jedi are portrayed more realistically in the prequel movies at least.
@Sauroposeidon:
You realize those useless droids were produced at a ratio of something like several million to 1 clone, right? And the clones managed to actually stalemate this war for years… Yeah, the clones are badasses.
“You realize those useless droids were produced at a ratio of something like several million to 1 clone, right?”
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You’re kidding, right? That was nowhere in the movies.
“You’re kidding, right? That was nowhere in the movies.”
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EU is canon
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And yes the droids were mass producing faster than the clones were being bred
“You’re kidding, right? That was nowhere in the movies.”
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Look at how fast the droids are being manufactured in Attack of the Clones. Contrast to the stated fact that the Republic has 1.25 million clones at that time, 5 million more incoming, and later (in The Clone Wars tv show) state that they will not grow more clones. Then recognize that the CIS had more than one droid factory. Yes, the droids were built at millions:1 ratio even within the G and T canons. I don’t even have to dip into the EU for this, although that too backs this up.
Aaaand OriginalA wraps it up. Well done
“You realize those useless droids were produced at a ratio of something like several million to 1 clone, right? And the clones managed to actually stalemate this war for years… Yeah, the clones are badasses.”
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Stop trying to pretend like the B-1′s are actually capable of anything. The B-2′s are hardly any better, they just have armor and fire power going for them but they’re complete idiots too. R2D2 humiliated them, after all. I could defeat the droids with one hand behind my back and a screw driver. I’m not kidding. At all. Not even a little. Guess I am now super bad ass.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXTGzKkTTLk
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Clone Troopers… officially now shittier fighters than an unarmed Astromech droid.
“R2D2 humiliated them, after all. I could defeat the droids with one hand behind my back and a screw driver. I’m not kidding. At all. Not even a little. Guess I am now super bad ass.”
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That scene had heavy PIS, Not to mention the B2s saw the Astromech as no threat and were caught off-guard. R2 is no normal droid.
And here we go again…..
Finally one of my matches got posted.
and its my most recent one to
“That scene had heavy PIS, Not to mention the B2s saw the Astromech as no threat and were caught off-guard. R2 is no normal droid.”
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Yeah if they were any other B-2′s they’d of shot R2 on the spot, I’m just being a dick. R2D2 pretty much accidentally killed those two bumblefucks though, he wasn’t even trying he just wanted to get away. Point is, whooping a bunch of droids who’s strongest character trait is that they are so stupid that it hurts to watch them does not a bad ass make.
i was talking about the deathstar dumbfucks
Yeah I figured you meant for this to be a comical match.. I still think the troopers take it. The Red Shirts ALWAYS manage to do the worst possible thing or be in the worst possible spot and always at the worst possible time. The Storm Troopers would have to actively be trying to not kill them for their attacks to never (or rarely) kill a Red Shirt.
im still suprized none of my requests got posted untill now
@Jhud
You meant for this match to be which group is worse off in combat, right?
@Commander Cross
Yes! I got the idea from a friend and thout why not.
@Jhud
Fair enough.
Although you kind of forgot to add how the award is to be presented, as last i checked, Kerrigan vs Mengsk didn’t get an award because no one knows how the Tartarus we can find a victor in the match to grant the award towards.
“Who Fails Less” award goes too…
@Jhud
Stormtroopers, then.
Now as for Indirick Boraele vs Cornelius Fudge, can we worry about how to prepare the award if/when the match gets posted?
“i was talking about the deathstar dumbfucks”
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The ones under orders to allow the Millenium Falcon to escape so that the Empire could track them to the secret Rebel Base. Those guys, under orders to not kill the people that were shooting at them, are the guys you are talking about for this match? Good to know they can take orders well.
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“Clone Troopers… officially now shittier fighters than an unarmed Astromech droid.”
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Yeah, because it wasn’t like the very first episode of The Clone Wars was about 4 Clones + 1 Jedi Master taking out a whole battalion of battle droids that had tanks. Or that one episode that was about 5 Clones taking back a base from superior numbers of B-1 after they took it from the the equal numbered Elite Droids. Or all those other episodes where a small number of clones takes on wave after wave of superior numbers, either B-1′s or B-2′s.
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You talk like killing 2 Super Battle Droids is hard. HA. The Clones take on ARMIES of Super Battle Droids at a time. Often enough times that the SBDs have superior numbers. The Clones still come out on top more often than not.
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And I didn’t claim that killing a B-1 was impressive. I claimed that SLAUGHTERING BATTALIONS of B-1s was impressive. The Clones DO THIS.
“Equipment – Standard”
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So E-11 for Troopers and the (I believe) Type 2 phaser pistol? Plus the obvious armor.
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“I’m not sure if we’re supposed to debate assuming they are both competent and not hung with plot death, or to debate jokingly as to which fails the most including plot death. . .”
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I will go with both at first. The retarded version of the match is incredibly easy; they both kill each other in a perfectly timed way that allows for the overall story to continue with the most drama involved. In this case….Kirk and Luke off breaking into a building somewhere while its owner is distracted by the fight.
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“While I haven’t finished reading the article yet, Hermit, I came across the commonly spouted most shots fired miss in real combat. MOST shots are suppression fire, intentional misses to provide cover or pin a target down. You can do this when you have a fully automatic rifle. It’s a lot harder to do when you have a weapon which is usually depicted as single fire in the movies. Your accuracy should be way higher.”
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I read both articles. I’d disagree with some sections of each too. But considering the OP posted the one attempting to correct the “Teddy Bear Incident” I’m going to operate under the assumption that both sides are to be taken seriously rather than a parody.
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“Stormtroopers by way of better armor and better everything.”
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Except weapons.
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“Red shirts have never lost to 3ft teddies while the “BEST” stormtroopers got owned by them.”
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To be fair the red shirts would’ve been the guys befriending the teddies.
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“Oh and phasers on widebeam wipe out swathes of troopers”
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This right here is kind of a huge point. Assuming average human reaction time for both sides the wide beam+auto aiming features would give the red shirts at a minimum a half of a second of leeway before the other side actually fires.
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“The Redshirts in comparison are not specialist troops at all, they are general ships services (which is why people like Uhura and Scott wear the same uniforms yet are not ‘redshirts’ in the fighter sense) personnel assigned to security detail and given some extra training and phaser range time though some do seem to specialize in it and spend relatively little time in other ships services departments in their careers. In the original universe James T. Kirk’s father is a prime example of the career-long security officer though in the Abrams-verse trek he seems to be command track instead (essentially a goldshirt though it probably does not make any difference in that nasty disorganized mess of an organization in the movie since rank, department, experience, and everything else seems to be ignored in favor of whoever wins the fistfight whenever an issue comes up). What the Redshirts lack in continuous combat training is at least partially made up for in their multidiscipline approach in the way of versatility though. Like the Stormtroopers most of the detailed information of them is EU or in scripting guide descriptions of them, neither side gets much air time and the little they do usually is usually not very complimentary hence the derogatory ‘Stormtrooper effect’ and ‘Redshirt’ tropes.”
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Using your post as a frame of reference here. We do know there are dedicated ground combatants. Granted, the ambiguous term of ‘red shirt’ would imply people of varying jobs (like Scotty). BUT that also gives us something to work with too. To take this seriously guys like Scotty are a valid example of Red Shirts without PIS.
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However, if we were to gather purely combat orientated Red Shirts there are examples in several ST series to indicate specialized combat training and even martial arts. Plus that “range time”.
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Just saying.
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“I would predict a win for the Redshirts, 100 people hosing down a confined area with continuous-beam weapons would make an intense killing field that even Stormtrooper skill and armor has little chance against.”
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I’d have to agree with this.
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“PIS is the main reason that stormtroopers miss constantly. otherwise, they raped an entire galaxy and lots of Jedi… and there is an inifinant amount of them. Red shirts are just.. well… you know. Cannon fodder”
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PIS goes both ways.
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“Now to the actual fight, the Stormtroopers have a clear advantage because of their rate of fire.”
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Isn’t it a semi auto (E-11) vs a full auto (phaser)…?
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“A Stormtrooper can drop two or three Red Shirts while a red shirt has to pull the trigger and wait for the second long burst to end”
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Not true. In the same stroke a red shirt can press a button once and send out a wide-beam to take down 3-5 troopers. Or set it to a pulse setting at full auto.
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“Red Shirts don’t even wear armor of any kind.”
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Armor is kind of a moot point in ST. You are right that valid protection IS available and can be very easily mass produced on a whim and it’s still not offered or used.
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““Phaser on wide beam”…. yeah too bad a Red Shirt has never shown themselves to be competent enough to actually bother with that ever even when it would be appropriate. … Goes double for the competent Trek characters too I might add. That was used, what, twice? In 21 years of television? The Stormtrooper’s stun setting is scene more often per porportion (twice [to my recall] in 11 years [counting each movie as a year, which I didn't do for Trek]).”
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So you’re allowing PIS into your argument. Cool.
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“Besides Stormtroopers have Thermal Detenators which can be equally destructive as a Wide Beam setting.”
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But takes longer to use.
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“it would only be a matter of out flanking the Red Shirts in cove”
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What cover?
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“Less seriously: Stormtroopers die from rocks thrown by teddy bears. Red Shirts die from plants. Personally I bet on the people that don’t get killed by something that a vegetarian literally eats for breakfast.”
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Storm Troopers have also been killed by explosions comparable in size to fire crackers too.
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Bad examples are bad.
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“I’m thinking the troopers have this. The problem is even against the most base opponents in Star Trek, the Red Shirts literally can not avoid death. They seem to massively attract it. A storm trooper can miss his shot, and the bolt will still hit some reflective surface and come back around to hit a red shirt.”
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lulz at uber PIS.
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“Also, LOL at Eric trying to say movie-troopers don’t suck. Also, Original, Clone Troopers ARE NOT bad ass. They fight super-retarded robots. This is not impressive. Although they can at least figure out how to mass enough fire power in one direction to bring down a jedi, although jedi are portrayed more realistically in the prequel movies at least.”
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And then there’s this.
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“Stop trying to pretend like the B-1′s are actually capable of anything.”
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GUNGANS WERE HOLDING THEM BACK!
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““R2D2 humiliated them, after all. I could defeat the droids with one hand behind my back and a screw driver. I’m not kidding. At all. Not even a little. Guess I am now super bad ass.”
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That scene had heavy PIS, Not to mention the B2s saw the Astromech as no threat and were caught off-guard. R2 is no normal droid.”
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Also a sign of how much less useful the non-AI artificial minds were compared to a human brain or a functioning AI.
Anyway, post went through before I was finished…
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I don’t see this fight lasting more than a minute. They’re in the middle of a flat area with no cover with no method of escape. The two forces I’m assuming opposite sides and facing each other.
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Having basic knowledge going into it they’re going to lift and pull the trigger as soon as they’re physically able to. That combat experience would mean nil unless we’re looking at a quick draw.
“i was talking about the deathstar dumbfucks”
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I missed this when I posted. That changes things.
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“Yeah I figured you meant for this to be a comical match.. I still think the troopers take it. The Red Shirts ALWAYS manage to do the worst possible thing or be in the worst possible spot and always at the worst possible time. The Storm Troopers would have to actively be trying to not kill them for their attacks to never (or rarely) kill a Red Shirt.”
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Well, it was said earlier….An entity that can’t hit anything Vs an entity that can’t NOT be hit.
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“@Jhud
You meant for this match to be which group is worse off in combat, right?
@Commander Cross
Yes! I got the idea from a friend and thout why not.”
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Then that means the loser is the winner?
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“Isn’t it a semi auto (E-11) vs a full auto (phaser)…?”
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CIDE you’re not that stupid..
@CIDE
This is still confusing, really.
” Also, LOL at Eric trying to say movie-troopers don’t suck.”
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I provided a valid argument. Either provide a valid counter argument, or STFU.
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Oh, and “LOOOLZ EWOKS!!!!!!!!” is not a valid argument.
“Look at how fast the droids are being manufactured in Attack of the Clones. Contrast to the stated fact that the Republic has 1.25 million clones at that time, 5 million more incoming, and later (in The Clone Wars tv show) state that they will not grow more clones. Then recognize that the CIS had more than one droid factory. Yes, the droids were built at millions:1 ratio even within the G and T canons. I don’t even have to dip into the EU for this, although that too backs this up.”
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There is NOTHING to indicate that fights took place on the scale of millions to one, though. Every fight in the movies has shown around equal numbers fighting each other. You’re just assuming.
“So you’re allowing PIS into your argument. Cool.”
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Okay, good to know that over two decades of Phaser fights were ENTIRELY PIS induced because the Wide setting would have made them totally unjustified. It is MUCH better to assume that the ENTIRE UNIVERSE OF STAR TREK is incompetent rather than merely just the Red Shirts. Good, Thanks, Glad you cleared that up for me.
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“what cover”
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=s66zFW3nogU
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Those pillars that are scattered about around but not quite at the edge of the battlefield.
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“Storm Troopers have also been killed by explosions comparable in size to fire crackers too.”
“Bad examples are bad”
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Yes, because I was being SO serious by that point despite the fact that I prefaced that section with “LESS SERIOUSLY:”
“There is NOTHING to indicate that fights took place on the scale of millions to one, though. Every fight in the movies has shown around equal numbers fighting each other. You’re just assuming.”
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I’m merely assuming the CIS used their forces effectively. They had millions to one ratio in troopers. They can field millions to one ratio of droids based on production speed taken from G and T canon sources. G and T Canon sources say 1.25 + 5 million clones for the entire war. Period. end of story. The clones didn’t take on that ration in individual battles, but on the scale of war they DID take on that disparity of numbers, and they HELD THEIR GROUND.
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And the times the Clones do fail it is because of, surprise surprise, MASSIVE disparity in numbers favoring the droids. … or a named character…. or Palpatine double crossing the Republic to give the CIS an advantage.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=exQ_-NfZeYw
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According to that clip, near 2:50 when the heads are being attatched, a single droid factory can produce 1 droid per 3-4 seconds. I’ll say 4 seconds to be generous. A single factory can make 21600 B-1 Battle Droids per day. It would take just under two months to equal the 1.25 million Clones that took DECADES to grow. Just over 33 weeks to make full parity of forces. 1.58 years to DOUBLE the Republics ENTIRE fighting force. From ONE. SINGLE. Factory.
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We know they had at least 3. … I think…. I may be thinking of a game for one of those. and another was lost during the being of the war when they both had about equal force numbers.
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I do not find it hard to claim that the Clone Troopers had to be absolute badasses in order to fight, and WIN, this war. The droids, even B-1s, should have been able to fight every battle with at least 2:1 ratio… As it happens, more often then not, the B-1s fought with something closer to 30:1 ratio… and they would still lose against the Clones. Those Clones were badass!
This…. This actually became serious?
@Captain
This is getting good, sit back and enjoy the ride.
“This…. This actually became serious?”
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THIS IS FACTPILE!!! We take everything seriously!
(Watches people on the verge of getting kicked to the pit of death, only to find some way out of the pit before they start landing or dying from the fall, whichever would arrive first if they don’t find a way out in time!)
THANK YOU, 300!!!!!
“The ones under orders to allow the Millenium Falcon to escape so that the Empire could track them to the secret Rebel Base. Those guys, under orders to not kill the people that were shooting at them, are the guys you are talking about for this match? Good to know they can take orders well.”
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You don’t fucking understand. This is a joke match. We’re not using EU explained retconned not-craptastic storm troopers which have been explained away for why they can’t accomplish jack shit ever unless Vader’s there to hold their god damn hand through everything down to wiping their ass. We’re talking about head bumping idiots who can’t stop a handful of country bumpkins and some princess bitch from escaping in their own territory with only a modified freighter from the most advanced battle station in their entire galaxy. Movie Troopers only. Why would anyone in their right mind send well trained soldiers against the Red Shirts and think that’s a good match? Either you’re too frothing at the mouth to suck some stormie cock to be capable of standing down or you’re too fucking stupid to grasp what he intended.
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“Yeah, because it wasn’t like the very first episode of The Clone Wars was about 4 Clones + 1 Jedi Master taking out a whole battalion of battle droids that had tanks. Or that one episode that was about 5 Clones taking back a base from superior numbers of B-1 after they took it from the the equal numbered Elite Droids. Or all those other episodes where a small number of clones takes on wave after wave of superior numbers, either B-1′s or B-2′s.”
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Clones had guns. R2D2 didn’t use a gun. God forbid he have a gun or they wouldn’t even NEED a clone army.
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“I claimed that SLAUGHTERING BATTALIONS of B-1s was impressive. ”
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I could do that. I am not kidding at all. I’m willing to bet you could too. I’ll go get a hammer and I’ll fetch you a screw driver and we can march through their masses as Gods together.
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“lulz at uber PIS.”
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Ok, dropping my clown face for a second. I am arguing for the purpose of being silly. This is clearly a silly match, and the suggester has made it clear that we’re using idiot versions of the storm troopers. This whole match is a parody. The first one I’ve actually liked too so I’m loving this.
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“I provided a valid argument. Either provide a valid counter argument, or STFU.”
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We’re not using EU Stormies. We’re using bumblefucks who’s record of failure have earned them a place in history as being some of the crappiest grunts in the history of fiction. If you try and be serious I’ll LOL and call you a fucktard, fucktard. Now quit popping a nerd boner because you like stormies and get with the program.
So with the latest news, once again this match is closer than we imagine.
@Sauroposeidon
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You get all over the Stormie supporters when it was a Trekkie that was the one that took this thread seriously first. You act like Team Redshirt is completely blameless. Just because their arguments would be considered a joke in a regular debate doesn’t mean they aren’t serious.
So with the list of news going on, which side will shoot themselves in the foot further, 1st?
Considering there is no cover, Stormtroopers are still some of the best trained forces in the galaxy, and they have GRENADES!
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This is over. Even if the Redshirts are like pew pew wide beam. The Stormtroopers in the back not getting phased just lob their grenades.
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The redshirts now have to deal with a number of foreign explosives that explode with VERY deadly force and should prove lethal to any unarmored combatant nearby. If the explosion doesn’t kill them, try large rock shrapnel from the pillars and walls. Also nice is the massive whirlwind of dust and blood clogging the senses of the redshirts.
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I imagine that Stormtroopers have faster reflexes than a Redshirt. In Star wars most weapons are short ranged, so in many cases being the first one to aim and shoot might be vitally more important than getting a perfect shot. Especially when your “bullet” is a 6″ wide ball of plasma death stuff.
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“The ones under orders to allow the Millenium Falcon to escape so that the Empire could track them to the secret Rebel Base. Those guys, under orders to not kill the people that were shooting at them, are the guys you are talking about for this match? Good to know they can take orders well.”
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I love how often this is forgotten, they weren’t trying to kill them, simple as that really. They didn’t have to be such easy targets, but they did what they were supposed to at least.
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I think the existence of explosives to decimate and disorient the Redshirts points to victory, Stormtroopers.
Even when I brought up grenades, I totally forgot that the Red Shirts are completely unarmored. Stuff that wouldn’t even register to a Stormtrooper (thanks to their armor) would shred through the thin fabric of their Starfleet pajamas.
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“Considering there is no cove”
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There is cover. There are some twenty odd pillars around the circumference of the arena.
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capremix.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/edited3-copy1.jpg
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Now obviously that one guy was edited into the picture, but you can also see a clear blue line that leads right into a pillar. Those pillars are COVER. There is Cover on the battlefield. … Not a lot mind you, but it is there.
“We’re not using EU Stormies. We’re using bumblefucks who’s record of failure have earned them a place in history as being some of the crappiest grunts in the history of fiction. If you try and be serious I’ll LOL and call you a fucktard, fucktard. Now quit popping a nerd boner because you like stormies and get with the program.”
.
Not a valid counter-argument. I provided proof and logic, with real-world examples, on how Endor could be explained without PIS. Counter argue my given proof instead of claiming “its proven time and again fucktard!!!!!!1!!!” If you can’t, kindly leave Factpile.
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As for the match, I don’t really see the Redshirts “spraying” the Stormtroopers with continuous beams from the phaser. We’ve never seen that, even by the “competent” characters (if I’m wrong, please show me because I want to see this). I’m not sure about the effects on sand (Ep.II was a bitter disappointment in that regard) but the E-11 will blast some pretty big chunks out of the stone walls of the Coliseum. Smoldering chunks of rock will certainly distract the Redshirts. The grenades could take out a dozen Redshirts at a time – not sure how many actually carry them since we’ve only seen a grenade used once (on Owen and Beru).
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“Those pillars are COVER. There is Cover on the battlefield.”
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Who’s to say the combatants won’t blast through the gates and use the tunnels for cover? Its still technically in the coliseum. Stormtroopers have taken cover numerous times in the films – can’t say the same for the Redshirts.
“ Red Shirts don’t even wear armor of any kind. ”
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According to several visuals in various episodes and the ST:TMP novelization that is because there is no man-portable armor that does any good against phaser fire (the leather-like padded armor seen in the movie worked by having a force field generator system rather than any hard shell of material, and the generator only protected the wearer for a short time so was not considered to be worth general issue). To see that in the show itself take a look at the episode “Elaan of Troyius”, not only does Spock have no trouble at all in stunning the armored guards in front of Elaans cabin door, and when cornered her chief warrior, Kryton, manages to grab a phaser and disintegrate himself (to avoid a mind meld that would have revealed the plot) armor and all right through the torso armor and there was no noticeable difference between that and an unarmored person being disintegrated. In TNG the Klingon armor is simply for melee weapon attacks and is useless against phaser or disruptor fire as has been shown many times.
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“ In real life, rapid fire weapons have “low” accuracy. Within Star Wars, the Stormtrooper rifle is a full auto-weapon, and Stormtroopers shoot from the hip more often then naught.
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In real life weapons have recoil, phasers do not so they can be on continuous beam for however long the power pack holds out without climbing and fighting the aim of the shooter like a real fully automatic slugthrower would. E11s have been shown firing single shot and a kind of ‘double tap’ two bolt burst shot, if they have ever been fired in some kind of full auto mode that was actually fast enough to really be called that it was not in the three movies.
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“ Some Stormtroopers are also Clone War veterans. There is no way you’re going to tell me that Clone Troopers are not bad ass. “
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Quite possible if you are talking about officers, it is unlikely that many would in the Stormtrooper squads themselves though since they would be at least as old as Kenobi and Vader who were in their prime during the clone wars.
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“ “Phaser on wide beam”…. yeah too bad a Red Shirt has never shown themselves to be competent enough to actually bother with that ever even when it would be appropriate. … Goes double for the competent Trek characters too I might add. That was used, what, twice? In 21 years of television? The Stormtrooper’s stun setting is scene more often per porportion (twice [to my recall] in 11 years [counting each movie as a year, which I didn't do for Trek]). ”
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Widebeam is used several times in TOS and at least once and probably more in TNG. Most of the time regular beam does the job so why waste the power if it is not needed in a crowd situation or whatever. As for thermal detonators, Trek has grenades too, they are mentioned a number of times though they never actually show any in TOS or most of the other series (though on the Enterprise series they did throw demolition charges that were small enough to be used that way). If they need a really nasty grenade-like effect it is always possible to overload someone’s ‘cricket’ backup phaser and throw that, though with the continuous beams from their phasers it would probably be over before any grenades landed anyway since this match is a lot like a formal duel with Sten guns at five paces.
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“ I’m thinking the troopers have this. The problem is even against the most base opponents in Star Trek, the Red Shirts literally can not avoid death. They seem to massively attract it. A storm trooper can miss his shot, and the bolt will still hit some reflective surface and come back around to hit a red shirt. “
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Except that if the Redshirt cannot avoid death shtick was in effect the Stormtrooper would not be able to hit anything, even by accident, because their poor accuracy shtick is driven by the same general plot needs.
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“ The Red Shirts ALWAYS manage to do the worst possible thing or be in the worst possible spot and always at the worst possible time. “
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Besides the ‘redshirt effect’ casualties to show how dangerous the situation is the Redshirts actually do act in a competent and effective manner. Usually the only time you see them outside of sacrificial settings though is when they beam in at the last second to cover the bad guys for the heroes. They do right things at right times often, it is just not focused on in the scripts much.
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In DS9 a Federation infantry force of only 150 held the listening post on AR-558 in the hotly contested Chin’toka system for five months while cut off from any resupply or reinforcement, in the face of almost constant attacks by the Jem’Hadar and hordes of subspace ‘Houdini’ mines. While it would certainly qualify for “the worst possible spot” and being cut off behind enemy lines for five months would be a “very bad time” indeed, they obviously do not do “the worst possible thing” since there are still 43 of them left when Defiant finally manages to sneak a load of supplies to them and help them subvert the mines and send them back at the enemy. Federation ground forces are obviously not anywhere as bad as myth paints them just like the Stormtroopers are not inept stumblebums who cannot shoot strait like the myths paint them either. In this situation it is just that the phaser (especially if the Redshirts have a few of the phaser rifles with them) with its continuous beam would be faster and more efficient killing the Stormtroopers than the semi-automatic burst fire of the E-11s would be at killing Redshirts. If the Stormies have some squad support weapons it may be different, but the phasers strengths playing against the blasters weaknesses like this scenario comes down to I doubt even the support weapons would balance it out. Captain Tracy (in “omega glory”) killed thousands of Yangs (who according to dialog use mass rush attacks) in an afternoon with only four phasers which illustrates the deadly effect of sweeping beam fire and the large charge capacity of the weapons.
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“ Who’s to say the combatants won’t blast through the gates and use the tunnels for cover? Its still technically in the coliseum. Stormtroopers have taken cover numerous times in the films – can’t say the same for the Redshirts. “
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Redshirts have taken cover numerous times, though usually after the sacrificial one is slain by surprise to show the audience the enemy is nasty so the heroes can be justified in whatever they do to them later (ever notice how Hollywood seems to insist on killing the villain almost every episode nowadays? Why do Hollywood cops even bother to carry handcuffs anymore?).
Expendable fight!
-I’ll have to go with the Troopers though. They’ve got the armor. Even if it sucks.
BC:
“blah blah, no such thing as armor against Phasers”
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Bull shit. Or rather… in-universe incompetents causes that bullshit to be 100% fact. They don’t have armor against phasers, but they DO have light weight material that is resistant to phaser fire that could easily be crafted into body armor.
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blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/ds9-blaze-of-glory-review-4785634
8 minutes in.
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www.4shared.com/video/uCl8cRkS/DS9_523_Blaze_Of_Glory.html
31 minutes in.
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Yeah, they don’t have body armor but they do have weapon resistant, light weight, easily shapeable materials. … Hmm, it almosts sounds like you could make some sort of weapon resistant protective plating that could be put on a mobile being out of that stuff; almost like a kind of armor for the body.
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“Widebeam is used several times in TOS and at least once and probably more in TNG.”
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Pics or videos. Now. Otherwise I don’t believe you.
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“Trek has grenades too, [...] though they never actually show any in TOS ”
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Rare equipment then. Non-standard.
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“phaser grenade”
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… Yes, blow up your own gun in a gun fight. BRILLIANT!
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“Captain Tracy (in “omega glory”) killed thousands of Yangs (who according to dialog use mass rush attacks) in an afternoon with only four phasers which illustrates the deadly effect of sweeping beam fire and the large charge capacity of the weapons.”
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Context required. He could have had them in a bottle neck. Give someone, anyone, a weapon made in the last 60 years, a bottle neck, plenty of ammo that doesn’t require reloading, and strip the armor from the enemy and numbers becomes pointless. Heck, you might even be able to get away with having to reload provided you have enough bodies piled up to keep the enemy clogged up while you do so. No, that is not evidence of sweeping a phaser unless specifically said or shown to be. If that is not said then it is pure speculation beyond “he killed x may in y time through unknown method with weapon z.”
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And, point back to the armor, you seemed to have missed my point completely about the pajamas. It isn’t that they don’t wear body armor for their own weapons, but the Troopers do. Every little bit of debris that the Troopers’ weapons kick up, and they kick up a lot of debris, will start cutting through that little bit of cloth on the Red Shirts like razors. Grenades, all grenades even non-lethal ones, have a much greater capacity to inflict injury by random bits of debris thrown around by their explosions than by the explosions themselves. When you don’t have body armor of any kind, like how the Red Shirts are equiped, that becomes a rather serious consideration as now you must get twice as far away in order to become “safe” from the grenade. Since the E-11 blaster also causes explosions when it hits rocky materials, such as the construction material of the entire battleground in this match, close misses from a blaster is going to result in injuries due to debris kicked up from the blaster bolt hitting the ground or wall or cover.
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Even nearly useless armor is better than none provided the armor doesn’t limit your range of movement, and the Stormtrooper armor does allow for a very good range of movement (although it does have poor vision).
i hate star trek and love star wars sooo….ill go with stormtroopers…..plus stormtroopers have armor and red shirts have tight dresses….
“I could defeat the droids with one hand behind my back and a screw driver. I’m not kidding. At all. Not even a little. Guess I am now super bad ass.”
Sauro…..I will now never take anything you say seriously. Ever.
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You are now a dumbfuck.
I second what NZ said
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Hey Negative, have you seen what Sauro said in the ‘Another Go’Round thread?’ lol
Don’t even know what the Another Go’Round thread is……
www.factpile.com/1242-group-combat-another-goround/comment-page-2/#comments
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This thread
Thirded.
Well what did he say?
He said his neutered dog could take Darth Vader and Starkiller by himself and stuff about Dante obliterating them. Read the thread
@S.R
We talking Dante or are we talking about MegaMan Zero?
But I digress, the forces in this match are equally likely to kill each other, here, potentially speaking, what is gonna win or lose this for one of the two sides is how well-co-ordinated either of the two sides actually are.
I have to side with the Stormtroopers on this. If it’s a joke thread, my reason is that they never annoyed me like the red-shirts did. If we’re being serious, I just think they’re more military-like, efficient, and coordinated. Plus, they have such an iconic armor suit.
You really are a tiresome little thing aren’t you?
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Go fuck yourself and while doing that try pestering the asshole who started the insults you whiney cunt.
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Anyway the vid of the red shirts shows them being killed by several means but does it actually show them SUCKING to the level the “bestest” stormtroopers did against the Ewoks.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3cL1Aofy90
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I am going with no as most of the redshirts in the clip are dying to far more high tech weapons, powerful beings and better situations than 3ft teddies with childrens stone tipped bows hiding in a forest lol.
“I have to side with the Stormtroopers on this. If it’s a joke thread, my reason is that they never annoyed me like the red-shirts did. If we’re being serious, I just think they’re more military-like, efficient, and coordinated. Plus, they have such an iconic armor suit.”
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Agreed. Plus their vehicles are more epic
That would imply that Starfleet security (that’s a misnomer, Starfleet is as secure as wet paper bag) have vehicles worth comparing.
They have an unarmored buggy which is only remotely dangerous when running away, and a total dependence on the fleet to cover every other spectrum. They have about as much field versatility as Hussars that have been stripped of their Horses.
In an era of starships capable of firing on ground targets with pinpoint accuracy, sending combat troops to die on enemy fields might seem wasteful. This is even more true when you consider that, even in the 2260′s, the weapons of a Federation starship could be set for a large-scale stun effect on the surface below (“A Piece of the Action”[TOS2]). One can just imagine a grand army of soldiers on a vast plain ready to meet any foe . . . except for the wide beam of light that comes down from the sky and sends them all into blissful slumber.
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1. Ground vehicles.
Nevertheless, there are times when ground combat is required . . . one doesn’t always have a starship at one’s disposal, and there are things even a starship cannot do. Thus, although we haven’t seen much of it in the starship-centric canon, we’ve seen enough ground combat in Trek to get the gist of the Federation’s techniques and technologies. While we’re at it, we’ll also take a look at the Federation’s neighbors and adversaries to see what’s common in regimes which enjoy a rough technological parity with the Federation.
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As for the Federation’s neighbors, we’ve heard of a Klingon “ground assault vehicle” in “Elogium”[VOY2], though we know very little about it. We only know that Torres referred to the fact that it has a device to remove animals from its path, suggesting that it either rolls on or hovers near the ground. Then there is the Cardassian “skimmer”, mentioned by Kira in “The Darkness and the Light”[DSN5] as being employed during the Cardassian Occupation. Kira, in telling a tale of her first engagement as a resistance fighter, recalls that the vehicle “set down”, then the hatch opened and the first Cardassian appeared. This suggests that the vehicle not only “skims” or hovers, but is fully enclosed. Such a vehicle may have been what Garak referred to in “The Wire”[DSN2] when he claimed to have been a part of the “Cardassian mechanized infantry”. Similarly, “Business as Usual”[DSN5] refers to the sale of 2000 “assault skimmers” by weapons merchant Hagath, though no additional details regarding the vehicles are given.
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2. Stun Grenades
With a range of several meters, these small thrown objects are capable of incapacitating multiple enemies simultaneously. They’ve been seen in use on several occasions, including “Shockwave, Pt. I”[ENT1], “Anomaly”[ENT3], and “Damage”[ENT3]. Stun grenades ought to have a variable delay timer, given Trip’s reference to his stun grenade being on a three-second delay in “Shockwave”. The mechanism by which stunning occurs is not clear. They seem to be akin to a flash-bang inasmuch as there is a very bright light and lots of noise. However, Trip’s grenade went off for almost three seconds, and featured a ‘zappy’ sound. In “Anomaly”, Archer ordered their use in the torpedo bay due to fear of the armed spatial torpedoes lying near the enemy position, which would suggest that they aren’t powerfully explosive and probably aren’t EMP-based.
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2. Photon Grenades
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Unquestionably in use are photon grenades. Again, these are weapons which we’ve seen little of, but when we have seen them they have been devastating. In “Arena”[TOS1], we see a small ground battle between six Starfleet personnel under Kirk, and Gorn forces sufficient to leave the Enterprise personnel “hopelessly outnumbered”, according to Spock.
The battle begins when a redshirt is vaporized at a range of “1570 yards” (about .8 miles or 1.4 kilometers). The Gorn promptly begin firing on the Starfleet personnel. (It isn’t clear what sort of weapon they were employing . . . I’ve previously assumed that some sort of shells were used based on the sound and explosions, but “Friday’s Child”[TOS2] shows that a phaser that will utterly vaporize a person will also produce large explosions against the ground when apparently using the same setting. In any case, the beam that zapped the redshirt was invisible, so the weapon which blows Kirk into the armory pit could also be a beam.)
Kirk finally reached the outpost’s armory, returning fire with a photon grenade launcher. This effectively ended the battle. Since the Enterprise was also being attacked, there was no opportunity for beamout, orbital support fire, or shuttle launch.
While we do not know the maximum range of the photon grenade launcher that Kirk used, we can make some guesses. Kirk fired it in the direction of the intervening high ground. The young tactical officer seemed concerned that Kirk would use the devices at such close range.
Kirk: “An evaluation, Mr. Kelowitz. Where do you think they are?”
Kelowitz: “If I were them, I’d go to the high ground on the right. I’d make it 1,200 yards, azimuth 87. It’s pretty close for one of these little jewels, Captain.”
Kirk: “It’ll be a lot closer to them. Stand clear.”
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The range was probably a bit low. Spock’s tricorder had somehow been overloaded by the Gorn, and since the Gorn were not visible (according to the statement of a young officer), neither their destination nor their speed was known. Kirk, not knowing how slow the Gorn are on foot, may have overestimated their speed. Alternately, it may be possible that the large force of Gorn had some sort of vehicle handy. It seems most likely, however, that he was just going for show, making sure that he landed the photon grenade in front of them to make them think twice. Given the fact that he also fired a bit off to the left, that seems the most likely option.
Also, the angle at which Kirk planted the grenade launcher, coupled with a look at it’s apparent designed angles of fire, would seem to indicate much greater ranges for the photon grenades. Kirk planted it on a ~45-degree slope, and it seemed to have only a 45-degree or so possible swivel, around 30 of which he used. In other words, Kirk could have fired a shallow shot using only the natural 45-degree slope, but instead he pointed it high, a good 70 degree angle.
I am presuming, of course, based on the appearance of the launcher and the appearance of the photon grenade, that it’s a simple gravity-aim device . . . a “dumb bomb”, if you will. It would follow, then, that the device would normally be fired at ranges of at least two miles (3.2 kilometers), if not more. I’d consider two miles a lower estimate (considering the young officer’s concern, coupled with the fact that the grenade’s effect seemed to reach all the way back to the buildings behind Kirk when it was fired at 1200 yards).
Given the concern of the young officer at the range, we can make some guesses as to the yield of the photon grenade. A 150-ton (625GJ) nuke, for instance, would produce first-degree burns at just over half a kilometer, according to equations made available by Carey Sublette, with third degree burns at up to 320 meters. When we focus back on Kirk and company after the detonation there’s also a breeze, implying that there might’ve been very minor blast-related overpressure effects as far back as the buildings of the Cestus III outpost. This also suggests something in the hundreds of gigajoules range if we use nuclear equations as our guide. Modern mortar shells, by contrast, can only hope for single or low double-digit kilograms of TNT, extending their damage by use of shrapnel.
At any rate, the Gorn bugged out after being subjected to the photon grenade, their ship beaming them to safety. It isn’t clear whether they had casualties (or if the whole group was a casualty), or whether they were simply suitably impressed and decided to make a hasty exit. In any event, we’ve seen one small example of Federation artillery. It ended a battle in which a technologically sophisticated enemy force which hopelessly outnumbered six Starfleet personnel was forced to withdraw, with “only” two losses on the Starfleet side.
We’ve also heard of photon grenades in the 24th Century. Their potential use as a distraction for a hostage rescue mission was discussed in “Legacy”[TNG4]. Geordi suggested beaming them into a structure on a low setting, stating that it wouldn’t kill the people in the adjoining chambers, but that it would “shake them up a lot”. Tom Paris expresses familiarity with photon grenades in “Year of Hell, Pt. II”[VOY4]. Finally, Admiral Leyton refers to Starfleet having stockpiles of photon grenades in “Homefront”[DSN4], in an amount he describes as “enough to equip an entire army”.
@ Zomb
I don’t care who struck first. It took me a good minute before I could stop laughing when someone appeared to take offense and actually try to debate against the OP saying we use “Deathstar bumblefucks” trying to explain why they aren’t bumblefucks when the reality of the situation is they were bumblefucks until an out of movie explanation was given that made virtually no sense. He knew damn well what the point of the statement was but he’s too hungry for some stormy lollipop to bow out and debate along those lines. Everyone who has tried to turn this goofy scenario using the highest grade idiots of sci fi in to a serious fight, you guys are the fucking reason why we look like shit in society, why we’re laughed at in the real world, and why trolls exist. Do you see Eric up there trying to take this seriously? Do you? I mean look at him! “Not a valid counter arguement” what a dumb fucking retarded little bitch. Just stop dude. You’re the kind of guy that gets picked on even in an office workplace environment. My valid arguement is that we were intentionally supposed to be using their idiot versions. No EU backup to explain why they sucked. Just idiots in bright white armor that can’t hit jack fighting idiots in bright red shirts who are a magnet for death.
“Except that if the Redshirt cannot avoid death shtick was in effect the Stormtrooper would not be able to hit anything, even by accident, because their poor accuracy shtick is driven by the same general plot needs.”
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They do on rare occasion hit things. Not often but those dumb fuckers do manage it.
@ Zomb… again
I forgot to mention that CIDE covered his ass by going down both routes because he felt there might be a chance that this is a serious match. He didn’t leave me with any openings to go after him. Assuming it was CIDE you’re talking about. I don’t pay enough attention or care that much to check if you meant someone else. I’m not really going after people. I’m going after the idiot moments I spot. If you think for a second I’m being serious on this thread outside of when I’m talking seriously like this right now then you might be one of the super-nerds I’ve poked fun at on this thread.
In an era of starship combat … Ground pounders are still apparently needed for long term engagements and ship security, especially given the performance of enlisted Starfleet personnel (they clearly don’t have an actual ground military) in surface engagements with the Dominion or the odd occasion that a boarding party gets on board.
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In these instances it was less about pinpoint orbital bombardment eliminating enemy formations and more about under-equipped Naval conscripts getting dragged into close range meat grinders with their sidearms – just look at the siege of AR-558 to see how woefully ill prepared either side are for a stand up fight even moments after being supplied; heck, even the Romulans expected to topple Vulcan with a mere 2000 men taking control of the surface.
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May I also remind everyone that it’s poor form to copy and paste a source from a copyrighted website without citation. In fact it’s not at all difficult to pick out the distinct lexicon of one post from the next and notice the immediate differences in quality.