Suggested by AnticitizenOne
For this Universe battle, it’s going to be perhaps the biggest battle in scale to ever take place on FactPile. The Xeelee are an ancient race that has been working on the ring you see pictured.
Those small clusters near the ring are entire galaxies, and that should give you an idea as to the prowess of the Xeelee. However, they are going up against Hall of Fame winner Stargate, who in their victory took down Warhammer 40K universe.
Which side would win?
Sorry for the double post, but: we’ve broken 2000 posts.
YAY! 2000. Only 520 more!
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Has Mike left us, or does he routinely nor post for a week? just curious, because the Daleks vs SG has died down?
Take a look at the FP award section, he’s still indirectly arguing from there. He said his reason for leaving is because he felt he was just repeating himself to people who countered his pure fact with opinion and that we were all arguing from a fallacy of incredulity even though his idea itself is based on one.
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Cananatra, I have no idea about. Apparently he is going to be posting much less frequently because this thread doesn’t take priority or something.
Basically the Stargate side has 1 debater left who is just going to respond at their leisure.
^And yes finally broke 2000!
ON TOPIC:
Cananatra was asking about recycling delay earlier and how long it takes to activate the drive which doesn’t matter anyway as long as its under 5 seconds, but here’s a quote:
“She must have traveled hundreds–perhaps thousands of light years. And she’d felt nothing. A mere touch of a button…”
……..later
“Yes. Yes it worked, Spinner. We crossed over two thousand light-years–in a time so brief I couldn’t even measure it.”
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This is an instance of humans testing the Xeelee hyperdrive.
Sorry for multipost, but has all of the SG side left? I know Cananatra said there would be gaps in his replying, but its been a week. Is this match done?
I would think so. They just keep reusing the same argument.
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The same thing happened in the Dalek vs SG thread, the SG side just quit one day.
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For fuck’s sake, people.
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I’m going to have to paraphrase something I said I don’t remember how long ago, because I don’t remember exactly how it went, but it still hasn’t been properly addressed – it has only been ignored.
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Neither the Xeelee nor SG have adequate proof of victory at this time. The plans of both sides have failure points that are unaddressed, and are unanswerable due to insufficient information available on both sides of the arguments.
The arguments could go either way, and there is absolutely no proof or suggestive evidence that one set of arguments holds objective priority or dominance over the other sets of arguments
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Even if there were adequate proof of victory for the Xeelee – my understanding of things is that it would be a stomp match, and thus ineligible for an award.
Were there adequate proof of victory for SG, my understanding of things is that it would be a stomp match and thus ineligible for an award.
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If someone can come up with a new argument for victory for one side or the other that does not rely on the same failure points as the present proposals, or if someone can come up with proof or evidence covering all the failure points of one proposal or another, then this match may be decided.
However, that seems highly improbable, as things have been going in circles for quite some time now, and both sides are seemingly so entrenched that they refuse to objectively look at anything that does not agree with them.
Both the Xeelee and SG sides are guilty of this.
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As for the Dalek vs SG thread … no one was really arguing that SG had a meaningful chance of victory – at best, SG might have been able to marginally slow down their inevitable demise.
In addition, the Daleks have far more in the way of feats, and have far more in the way of equivalent level opponents with feats. Besides, to the best of my knowledge, the Daleks would roll the Xeelee under.
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I, at least, haven’t posted because no one has really said anything new, and I don’t believe anyone will say anything new.
@Kytheros: The SG side has yet to prove a way to win. The SG side can fight, but they will end up losing to sheer numbers alone, if it comes to it. The Xeelee live all of the universe, and have trillions upon trillions. The one answer to that is that the Replicators would somehow break with all past action (which is apparently PIS) and use a Time Dilator to create quintillions of themselves. Xeelee have faster FTL, better durability, better weaponry, etc.
”Neither the Xeelee nor SG have adequate proof of victory at this time. The plans of both sides have failure points that are unaddressed, and are unanswerable due to insufficient information available on both sides of the arguments.”
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I feel I should point out that Mike and Cananatra have both insisted they have provided sufficient information for proof of their claims. One of my reasons for arguing this thread is because of that, I have been waiting for a long time for Mike to admit just once when some crazy scheme of his is completely speculative. Cana isn’t much better. You Kytheros have pointed it out, albeit not for the same reason, but neither one of them has admitted it.
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I have gone out of my way to point out where I am speculating, but one thing I am not speculating is a reset/rewrite of the timeline. How can anyone legitimately tell me that the timeline isn’t rewritten when a Xeelee who travels into the past and meets himself doesn’t change the timeline, when that same Xeelee never met a timetraveling Xeelee on his personal timeline? Should the possibility existing (given with extremely shaky evidence) of proportional time moving (negating any propagation), or the entirety of the timeline existing at once (negating the flow of time), be enough to overturn what logic dictates makes the most sense with the given information? I don’t think so, especially given the fallacious nature of the arguments given to have those ideas take precedent.
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As I see it, Stargate has the means to potentially beat the Xeelee, even if from my understanding the Xeelee can compete with pretty much anything Stargate throws at them, the problem is the time involved. That’s why I don’t see it as a stomp either way.
@Kytheros
Mikes been repeating what you said on several different threads for a while now.
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“Neither the Xeelee nor SG have adequate proof of victory at this time. The plans of both sides have failure points that are unaddressed, and are unanswerable due to insufficient information available on both sides of the arguments.
The arguments could go either way, and there is absolutely no proof or suggestive evidence that one set of arguments holds objective priority or dominance over the other sets of arguments”
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Lets talk specifics here, because I literally made a checklist and posted it 3 times total (this thread and FPA). Since the last time you posted, everything in the Xeelee plan has been backed by quotes, and the only thing at the moment stopping them from a victory is the Stargate plans that hope to counter the Xeelee plan. Its riddled with holes and goes along with what you say.
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“Even if there were adequate proof of victory for the Xeelee – my understanding of things is that it would be a stomp match, and thus ineligible for an award.
Were there adequate proof of victory for SG, my understanding of things is that it would be a stomp match and thus ineligible for an award.”
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This is what Mike has been repeating so much.
According to mike, SG has the capability to make infinite replicators. If trillions of forces speedblitz and beat SG, that’s not a stomp because SG can fight. AND the victory would be on a very large scale since after all, the Xeelee are a universal power and SG can recieve help from other universes.
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“If someone can come up with a new argument for victory for one side or the other that does not rely on the same failure points as the present proposals, or if someone can come up with proof or evidence covering all the failure points of one proposal or another, then this match may be decided.
However, that seems highly improbable, as things have been going in circles for quite some time now, and both sides are seemingly so entrenched that they refuse to objectively look at anything that does not agree with them.
Both the Xeelee and SG sides are guilty of this.”
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I’m not going to deny that this debate has gone in circles at points, but there is nothing left to prove for the Xeelee side. That’s why we keep nominating, because this debate is over. Like I said, the only thing stopping them at this point is the unproven SG plan……and the SG side has left.
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Like Imperator said, every tech that the two sides share, the Xeelee are more advanced in. And the tech that’s important for a Xeelee victory, the Xeelee are unmatched in.
“Lets talk specifics here, because I literally made a checklist and posted it 3 times total (this thread and FPA). Since the last time you posted, everything in the Xeelee plan has been backed by quotes, and the only thing at the moment stopping them from a victory is the Stargate plans that hope to counter the Xeelee plan. Its riddled with holes and goes along with what you say.”
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None of the quotes since the previous four or five times, possibly more – can’t be bothered to check or care, I’ve posted have actually brought anything new to the discussion for the Xeelee.
One of more important points that I can think of off hand – mind you, this isn’t a match I’m particularly interested in anymore, so I’m not going to invest much effort into going back and digging out all the failure points that need to be addressed, and I did bring up more in some of the previous iterations of my immediately previous post.
The relationship between the SG worldlines and the Xeelee worldlines, and the entanglement process. The SG worldlines, originating from a universe the Xeelee have absolutely no connection to, should not initially be on the Xeelee map. That poses some problems for the Xeelee scouting process, requiring a larger investment of time/resources.
Then there is the demonstrated fact that – per SG time travel rules, someone going back in time and changing things doesn’t matter to you (you continue going through time normally from your perspective) until after you and/or the changes encounter one another or something in your past. There’s also suggestive evidence that events in the past and present can proceed simultaneously. Nothing explicit, though.
There’s also the fact that SG has a defined future – it does not exist solely because the present reaches it. It exists on its own, and people from the past can go forwards to record the future and take those record back with them into the past. There’s also the fact that SG has demonstrated that if changes in the past don’t reach you until after you have or are severing yourself from the normal timespace continuum, you are protected from those changes.
Combining the above, the possibility certainly exists that the Xeelee won’t encounter SG in the past and concentrate to crush SG until after SG’s present or future has managed to initiate something separating it (or elements thereof) from the timeline, locking away the ability to kill it in the past.
That’s something that NO ONE can prove either way.
If it were possible to prove it for one side or the other, that side’s odds of winning would be rather good, though, again, the other failure points would need to be addressed. However, it’s not something that we can prove at all, much like most of the major failure points on both sides.
That being said, SG is generally quite light on the temporal side of things
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“This is what Mike has been repeating so much.
According to mike, SG has the capability to make infinite replicators. If trillions of forces speedblitz and beat SG, that’s not a stomp because SG can fight. AND the victory would be on a very large scale since after all, the Xeelee are a universal power and SG can recieve help from other universes.”
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I’m not Mike.
However, SG does in fact, have that capability. At least, they have the technical capacity to do so.
HOWEVER, my understanding of a successful speedblitz would result in the effectively instantaneous destruction of SG forces at the beginning of the match, before SG’s capabilities can be applied to give them a fighting chance.
SG is … very difficult to find a decent match for. Give SG any sort of prep time, and SG is all but unconquerable, but without prep time, SG’s top tier forces are powerful but extremely few in number, and against an opponent with similar or greater raw per-unit firepower, they’re generally going to be extraordinarily heavily outnumbered.
In this instance, however, since SG did not have prep time allowed, a temporal speedblitz, as proposed for the Xeelee, prevents SG from getting itself to where it has a fighting chance, and thus, this match would be a stomp.
On the flip side, if SG managed to break worldlines/timelines, especially by way of an AR jump, they have the technical capacity to destroy the universe they jumped from, effectively instantaneously, without the Xeelee being able to respond (because they would not know where or how the attack was coming from), and it would probably happen too fast for the Xeelee to react and escape through the Ring.
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“I’m not going to deny that this debate has gone in circles at points, but there is nothing left to prove for the Xeelee side. That’s why we keep nominating, because this debate is over. Like I said, the only thing stopping them at this point is the unproven SG plan……and the SG side has left.”
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Say rather that the things left in question are either impossible to prove (one way or the other), or not going to be looked at objectively (by either side).
You guys keep nominating because you want to shut Mike and Cana up.
This debate is over because the things that remain in question (for both side, mind you) are either things that no one can prove, or things that the side that would be hurt by them refuses to look at objectively, calling it either disproven or ignoring it. Things are irrevocably deadlocked, with neither side having an objective advantage where it matters.
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“Like Imperator said, every tech that the two sides share, the Xeelee are more advanced in. And the tech that’s important for a Xeelee victory, the Xeelee are unmatched in.”
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That’s debatable on several counts, but irrelevant nonetheless from my perspective.
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However, as I’ve said, I stopped posting because no one was actually saying anything new, and I don’t believe anyone will say anything new.
Neither side can, in my considered opinion, convincingly claim victory here.
As a result, this match should be left to quietly fade away, at least until after new source material for the Xeelee and/or Stargate becomes available, which seems unlikely to occur.
”Then there is the demonstrated fact that – per SG time travel rules, someone going back in time and changing things doesn’t matter to you (you continue going through time normally from your perspective) until after you and/or the changes encounter one another or something in your past. There’s also suggestive evidence that events in the past and present can proceed simultaneously. Nothing explicit, though”
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^this^ is a HUGE problem for me because this is not a demonstrated fact per SG time travel rules. Which brings me to another point first NOTHING has been presented so far that suggests that SG and the Xeelee timetravel works on different principles in terms of affecting the timeline. In any event Continuum (since it’s essentially the evidence for this) does not make proportional time movement factual, NOR does it show that those changes occur in respect to that. We don’t see when Ba’al timetravels, so what if he time traveled after his clone was executed? We then are observing the changes incurred in the timeline, but before the time travel. The only factual thing that was demonstrated in this example is that the timeline changed and diverged from the original runthrough of the timeline, AND that those changes that are incurred definitely matter, if the SG team hadn’t made it to the wormhole they would have been rewritten into the new timeline, anything stemming from HOW though is completely speculatory.
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”There’s also the fact that SG has a defined future – it does not exist solely because the present reaches it. It exists on its own, and people from the past can go forwards to record the future and take those record back with them into the past. There’s also the fact that SG has demonstrated that if changes in the past don’t reach you until after you have or are severing yourself from the normal timespace continuum, you are protected from those changes”
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I cannot stress enough how nothing in this paragraph proves the conclusion that is being derived from this evidence. Going to a future, recording down what happens to that point and going back and following that does not negate the flow of time. The most egregious aspect of this non-sequiter argument though is that the Xeelee argument does not deal with this aspect of time travel. What happens if I decide to change what I have read on that planet? What happens to that “defined” future then? But more importantly how does being defined show that those events already happened barring the future timetravel?
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”Combining the above, the possibility certainly exists that the Xeelee won’t encounter SG in the past and concentrate to crush SG until after SG’s present or future has managed to initiate something separating it (or elements thereof) from the timeline, locking away the ability to kill it in the past.”
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How often has a group of people from Stargate’s defined future AR hop in the future and return to destroy a problem that destroyed that group in the past/present? The reason I am asking is because I provided evidence from the Xeelee which shows precisely why these things can’t happen. If the future Stargate initiates an AR hop because of it being “defined,” but the Present Xeelee in that AR hop groups past destroy any possibility of that AR group existing, it never happens and cannot happen, so it would simply exist as an AR separate from the prime timeline. The SG team in Continuum is a perfect example to express this idea, what if they hadn’t reached the wormhole in time, would their defined future have them existing in the rewritten timeline anyway? How would that affect their defined future if they hadn’t made it to the wormhole in time?
“The relationship between the SG worldlines and the Xeelee worldlines, and the entanglement process. The SG worldlines, originating from a universe the Xeelee have absolutely no connection to, should not initially be on the Xeelee map. That poses some problems for the Xeelee scouting process, requiring a larger investment of time/resources.”
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You can’t say nothing has changed when this has been addressed an world line scouting in this matter isn’t even needed.
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“Then there is the demonstrated fact that – per SG time travel rules, someone going back in time and changing things doesn’t matter to you (you continue going through time normally from your perspective) until after you and/or the changes encounter one another or something in your past. There’s also suggestive evidence that events in the past and present can proceed simultaneously. Nothing explicit, though.”
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This has also been discussed and reached a conclusions. Xeelee CTC time travel doesn’t work the way you suggest. If time flows forward for the future SG at the same rate as the past Xeelee, then when the Xeelee experience time literally in reverse the SG side would have to also. If it works the way you suggest with CTC, then the worldlines according to you for SG should to also travel backward. Also: “per SG time travel rules, someone going back in time and changing things doesn’t matter to you “ First, this has never been proven only speculated upon. Second, it doesn’t apply. Its Xeelee time travel rules since they are the ones time traveling, and according to Xeelee time travel, the timeline gets rewritten, and even if the future continued at the same rate, when the Xeelee experience time backwards, according to the SG side’s ideas, SG would have to also.
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“There’s also the fact that SG has a defined future – it does not exist solely because the present reaches it. It exists on its own, and people from the past can go forwards to record the future and take those record back with them into the past. There’s also the fact that SG has demonstrated that if changes in the past don’t reach you until after you have or are severing yourself from the normal timespace continuum, you are protected from those changes.”
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This, has also been discussed since you were last here. You have to prove this. Simple time travel to the future doesn’t prove a definite future exists. The latter part doesn’t apply if Xeelee time travel rewrites the timeline.
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“Combining the above, the possibility certainly exists that the Xeelee won’t encounter SG in the past and concentrate to crush SG until after SG’s present or future has managed to initiate something separating it (or elements thereof) from the timeline, locking away the ability to kill it in the past.”
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This is a false conclusion reached based on the above being true, which have been discussed in your absence and have reached conclusions. Even if they escape, the Xeelee still have the ring and can follow them. And we have established that there is no possibility that the Xeelee won’t find all of the SG forces. The Xeelee have the capability to scout the entire universe inch by inch in a total of 5 seconds.
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“That’s something that NO ONE can prove either way.”
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What can’t be proven? That Xeelee time travel behaves the same way in this match that they do in quotes? That Xeelee scouting is at minimum lightspeed? That there are trillions of nightfighters? That a starbreaker can kill anything in SG? All of this has been directly quoted.
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“If it were possible to prove it for one side or the other, that side’s odds of winning would be rather good, though, again, the other failure points would need to be addressed. However, it’s not something that we can prove at all, much like most of the major failure points on both sides.”
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I don’t see WHY any of what you said can’t be proven. All the failure points you mentioned have actually been discussed. Based on Xeelee scouting, they are guaranteed to scout the whole universe unless a nightfighter malfunctions for some unknown reason.
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“I’m not Mike.
However, SG does in fact, have that capability. At least, they have the technical capacity to do so.
HOWEVER, my understanding of a successful speedblitz would result in the effectively instantaneous destruction of SG forces at the beginning of the match, before SG’s capabilities can be applied to give them a fighting chance.
SG is … very difficult to find a decent match for. Give SG any sort of prep time, and SG is all but unconquerable, but without prep time, SG’s top tier forces are powerful but extremely few in number, and against an opponent with similar or greater raw per-unit firepower, they’re generally going to be extraordinarily heavily outnumbered.
In this instance, however, since SG did not have prep time allowed, a temporal speedblitz, as proposed for the Xeelee, prevents SG from getting itself to where it has a fighting chance, and thus, this match would be a stomp.”
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I know you’re not Mike. I said that Mike has been repeating what you said that you though was ignored. It would be destruction in 5 seconds from the match start. By the logic you’re telling me, all speedblitzes are stomps.
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“On the flip side, if SG managed to break worldlines/timelines, especially by way of an AR jump, they have the technical capacity to destroy the universe they jumped from, effectively instantaneously, without the Xeelee being able to respond (because they would not know where or how the attack was coming from), and it would probably happen too fast for the Xeelee to react and escape through the Ring.”
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How would it be instantaneous? In SG when you go through the stargate do you walk back out of it less than an instant after you entered having experienced all the time form the AR? It wouldn’t be too fast for the Xeelee to react and get to the ring at all. Since we decide what the Xeelee do in this match, we could have 1 nightfighter instantaneously transport to the ring, which would be faster than SG could initiate their TDD.
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“Say rather that the things left in question are either impossible to prove (one way or the other), or not going to be looked at objectively (by either side).
You guys keep nominating because you want to shut Mike and Cana up.
This debate is over because the things that remain in question (for both side, mind you) are either things that no one can prove, or things that the side that would be hurt by them refuses to look at objectively, calling it either disproven or ignoring it. Things are irrevocably deadlocked, with neither side having an objective advantage where it matters.”
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There’s no reason why those issues you mentioned with the Xeelee can’t be proven, and in fact, they already have been. A single nightfighter can scout every a single inch of the universe with lightspeed sensors, then go on a spacelike trajectory, then repeat, and it will objectively only take up 5 seconds.
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“That’s debatable on several counts, but irrelevant nonetheless from my perspective.”
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They share, time travel. Don’t even have to get into that. They have AR travel. Xeelee can choose an AR but SG can’t. They have FTL. Xeelee hyperdrive is faster. Xeelee also have sublight travel but there is no need to get into further items because they won’t be relevant to this debate.
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“However, as I’ve said, I stopped posting because no one was actually saying anything new, and I don’t believe anyone will say anything new.
Neither side can, in my considered opinion, convincingly claim victory here.
As a result, this match should be left to quietly fade away, at least until after new source material for the Xeelee and/or Stargate becomes available, which seems unlikely to occur.”
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Again, both of the first 2 statements are false. Believe it or not, but progress between Cananatra and the Xeelee side has actually occurred in your absence, and everything you mentioned has been discussed already.
Again, 11 nominations for Xeelee.
So, this is over right?
Pretty much.
Maybe next time….
The Xeelee really do win this. Nothing more to be said.
Xeelee for the Fp award with 11 nominations.
As someone who finished the Xeelee Sequence last weekend, reading this is really hilarious! Thinking SG could beat the Xeelee one on one! Quite funny.
Just to clarify, I have thoroughly enjoyed the SG universe and miss it like hell. I’ve seen it more than once. But to believe the Xeelee can be matched by SG universe humans/ancients or whatevers is beyond hilarious.
Let me state some facts since my knowledge is so fresh –
1. Xeelee hyperdrive – In the book Ring, when the humans are desperately trying to jump into the Ring they travel 10,000 lightyears per second! There is a conversation where the leader says that in the last 20 mins they must have traveled nearly 8 million light years.
2. Ring – The ring is an artifact 10 million light years across! It is made of cosmic string, think about that for a minute. The Xeelee make artifacts larger than most galaxies. The ring has the mass of 10,000 galaxies. The singularity at the center of the Ring is 300 light years wide.
3. Starbreakers – The primary weapons of the Xeelee operate on the manipulation of gravity itself. Accidental hits by a starbreaker onto a sun have caused it to go supernova, remember, accidental hits.
4. Nightfighters – Sycamore seed shaped fighters with discontinuity drives that work on the flaws of spacetime for sublight and hyperdrive for ftl. Armed with Starbreakers for maximum force. The Xeelee are referred to as the masters of space and time throughout the books, nearly 9 of them.
5. Some other weapons – The photino birds attempted to destroy the ring by launching a “galaxy” at it. Think about that and let it sink in. When the Xeelee figured this out, they fired a “cosmic string” towards the galaxy like a missile to destroy it in its entirety!
6. Photino Birds – Composed purely of dark matter, they live inside the stars across the entire known universe. Not much is shown or explained about their technologies or culture but not only did they beat the Xeelee with attrition, they also surrounded the Ring with galaxies to form a mirror of sorts from which photons could not escape. Since photons would constantly bounce back to the Ring, the ring would lose a small amount of energy and hence rotation speed and eventually destroy itself.
7. Pocket Universes – The Xeelee create pocket universes to experiment in, thats their past time for all we know. Towards the end, before the Xeelee evacuate, they offer all sentient races with booths that allow them to cross over to a different universe and escape.
8. Anti-Xeelee – The anti-xeelee was created as an escape mechanism. If the Xeelee could not stop the photino birds, the anti-xeelee would go back in time to shape the evolution of the Xeelee and prepare them to build the Ring.
So Xeelee for the FP Award now?
No FP awards for stomp matches, I thought?
Dante vs Kratos was awarded….
@ForgotPants: Cosmic Strings are useless in this fight, since the enemy has FTL, and planets could be evacuated, given the small amount of people on every planet but Earth. Which is weird, really, but oh well.
@ForgotPants
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Rest assured, apart from two people, literally nobody here believes that Stargate could win. And those two people haven’t been in this debate for at least a month.
The debate is deadlocked. Neither side can win without new evidence, no matter how much the xeelee side ignores SG canon.
@Forgotpants
Everythings been covered and ur completely right.
@Cananatra
Indirectly responding to an argument means nothing.
Cananatra, please point out something that really matters helps the SG side. Time Dilators won’t do jack if they don’t have Xeelee to study, and all they have coming out is what they had going in. Replicators are useless against the Xeelee, since the Xeelee aren’t going to land on a planet or inside a ship long enough for the Replicators to get to them. Trillions of Xeelee are coming from all over the universe for this battle, with speeds and weapons nearly incomprehensible by SG standards. What is the SG side going to do to ships that can survive, unharmed, magnetic sheer that could destroy all life on Earth from 1000km? Or that can survive supernova?
^Oops, meant that all they have (knowledge wise) going in will determine what comes out. I realize Replicators could”infinitely produce,” even though never seen or hinted at on the show, to grow into huge numbers, but they aren’t going to be able to block Starbreakers with any kind of shields, Xeeleeverse humans couldn’t, and their shields could withstand the indirect effects of a magnetar explosion.
You guys know how the main deadlock is how time progresses outside of a loop while the loop is ongoing? Both sides had conflicting theories, if time did occur outside than Sg could activate its AR drive and avoid the changes the Xeelee may cause. neither side had definite proof either way, just a series of semi-backed up opinions. Which led to a rather extensive debate on how time worked.
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I realised last night after posting that brief line that Sg does have an instance of time looping in it. In the episode “Window of opportunity” an ancient device loops time. You may remember it as the episode jack plays golf through the stargate. Once the loop finished though the Tokra contacted earth and made it clear they where incommunicado for a few months. This shows that in Sg canon the universe outside a timeloop continues.
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Now I don’t really expect any Xeelee supporters to accept this because the match has reached a point where Sg canon is often disregarded out of hand, but we’ll see.
^What?
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Alright, let’s analyze that. That time loop only covered a certain number of planets. So, planets not affected continued as normal, since they were not being touched by the time loop.
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Now, when you say the Xeelee side’s time loop, do you mean how the Xeelee will go backwards in time to change time? Because according to Xeelee rules, that will change time. As the images already posted have shown, the Xeelee travel backwards along its time line, and stops at a certain point. This is a totally different kind of time loop than the SG time loop.
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SG – time loop jumps time backwards to the beginning, starts again till it gets to the cut-off point (like in the Doctor Who episode Meglos).
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Xeelee “time loop” – nightfighter(s) experience time in reverse, changing the past. Theirs is not a self-contained loop like the SG time loop,
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Recap – SG tiime loop is a bubble of time, not affecting the universe outside of the loop, while the Xeelee “time loop” is explicitly rewriting time. They are two totally different ideas.
”Now I don’t really expect any Xeelee supporters to accept this because the match has reached a point where Sg canon is often disregarded out of hand, but we’ll see”
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The thing you have steadfastly refused to acknowledge is how these various time travel techniques work in concert with each other. You continue to apply singular instances that “prove” your idea without taking into account the ONE thing that ties everything together (the flow of time), or show how that one instance applies across the board.
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You dropping out of the argument because we don’t agree with you just speaks of cowardice and arrogance, not that we are ignoring what you think is evidence of your claims.
SG – time loop jumps time backwards to the beginning, starts again till it gets to the cut-off point (like in the Doctor Who episode Meglos).
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Xeelee “time loop” – nightfighter(s) experience time in reverse, changing the past. Theirs is not a self-contained loop like the SG time loop,
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Recap – SG tiime loop is a bubble of time, not affecting the universe outside of the loop, while the Xeelee “time loop” is explicitly rewriting time. They are two totally different ideas.
This deserves a lot of emphasis. Explains it VERY nicely.
Even if this match doesn’t get an award, it is pretty much decided at this point.
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The Xeelee win. Only a select group of fanboys, far in the majority, are actually supporting Stargate, and they haven’t brought up any actual new arguments for more than a month.
^In their defense, some of their arguments have merit. The biggest flaw on the SG side is assuming that using all the tech to ridiculous ends is only prohibited by PIS.
Well that is all that’s stopping it really. If I had my hands on it that’s how I’d use it.
^Oh, I agree. If I had that, that’s what I would do. Even so, all that would do would slightly even the odds. Really, it comes down to Replicators w/TD surviving while the Xeelee destroy everything. So neither side really wins if the TD and Arcturus are used offensively, in a manner that is never shown on the show.-
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Side note – Does Cybermen vs. Replicators sound like a good match? Or does it seem like it may be one-sided (don’t know which side it is one-sided to).
I’m sorry, we had two theory’s about how time operated outside of a time loop. My theory has been substantiated by Canon evidence from Stargate.
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If you wish to continue to argue that the stargate sides view is false you will require xeelee canon stating otherwise. Something that to this point you have not provided.
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Now, you can either continue to fume while searching for a new piece of information that can support your theory, or we can move on with the debate.
“I’m sorry, we had two theory’s about how time operated outside of a time loop. My theory has been substantiated by Canon evidence from Stargate.
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If you wish to continue to argue that the stargate sides view is false you will require xeelee canon stating otherwise. Something that to this point you have not provided.
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Now, you can either continue to fume while searching for a new piece of information that can support your theory, or we can move on with the debate.”
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…You just repeated yourself.
There is canon evidence for the Xeelee, that they rewrite time using these loops. The Xeelee lived billions and billions of years in the universe until there wasn’t much time left, then went back and re-engineered their history so that they almost emerged from the big bang as a fully developed species. If time behaves the way you say, the rest of the universe would have reached its end and CTC taking place inside the universe wouldn’t have been possible because the universe outside the trajectory wasn’t there. That’s the canon for the Xeelee, and since they are doing to time traveling it behaves time behaves that way.
Your canon material doesn’t apply to CTC, but rather to time travel in general and even then is still debatable.
“Now, you can either continue to fume while searching for a new piece of information that can support your theory, or we can move on with the debate.”
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
”I’m sorry, we had two theory’s about how time operated outside of a time loop. My theory has been substantiated by Canon evidence from Stargate.”
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No, your provided an inaccurate representation to substantiate your theory without actually providing any proof of your concept. From the transcript on your aforementioned “substantiation” Window of Opportunity
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CARTERThese were the worlds we were able to contact, including Alaris, the planet where SG-12 was doing its survey. At the center of this group is P4X 639. I believe that the alien device is establishing a simultaneous connection with all of these gates, creating a kind of subspace bubble, and that everything within the bubble is cut off from the normal flow of time.
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DANIEL Well think about it, I mean if you know in advance that everything is always going to go back to the way it was then…you could do anything for as long as you want without having to worry about the consequences.
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DANIEL Right, but it didn’t work. Instead of sending a team of scientists back to the key moment in their history, the device caused a short term continuous loop. Just like the one we’ve been experiencing. They experienced the same day dozens, perhaps hundreds, of times, trying to get the machine to work, but in the end they gave up, they shut it down and…let the end come
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CARTER We got a message from the Tok’ra. Apparently they’ve been trying to contact us for over three months. [O'Neill looks up, not surprised.]
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O’NEILL Really?
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CARTER Who knows when they first realized that we were cut off? I mean, there’s really no telling how much time passed.
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The fact of the matter is YOU have to prove this instance of a subspace bubble is applicable to the CTC observed in Xeelee canon and unfortunately for you it is not. A small portion of the Universe is stuck in a bubble of time and nothing that anyone did differently changed the timeline, nor were there any duplicates of anyone going into the past, which Pirius from Xeelee canon shows when it comes to CTC timetravel. Jack and Teal’c should have duplicates since they are the ones that retain the flow of time continuity through the timeline.
Another award well deserved
Why does this have an award? Isn’t this one of the biggest stomps on the site?
Whoah… it’s over now… *sniff, sniff, slight crying*
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Alright, what’s next *evil expectant grin*?
Wow, admin turn his brain off for this?
Victory! Well fought, everyone!
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Oh, and obligatory, for the whiners: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHptG35EWU
Well done!
HaHA! There’s just one more Mike-Match to defeat.
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“Wow, admin turn his brain off for this?”
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Nope. He saw just how many people supported the Xeelee. Just because it is a stomp doesn’t negate the length of the debate, which is probably a big deciding factor.
Congrats everyone!
There’s just Rand vs Richard left to end, and then we may return to Dante vs Bayonetta in earnest, right?
When you get right down to it there is no way this deserves an award. The best the Xeelee faction can get to is a stalemate on the nature of time.
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The plain fact is that Xeelee theory has even less proof from its own series than the Sg theory, you guys just think its fine to ignore SG canon.
”When you get right down to it there is no way this deserves an award. The best the Xeelee faction can get to is a stalemate on the nature of time. The plain fact is that Xeelee theory has even less proof from its own series than the Sg theory, you guys just think its fine to ignore SG canon.”
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Nobody, has ignored Stargate canon, and you have on several occasions ignored DEBATE related points in regards to this match discussing what you think constitutes proof. How exactly are we supposed to come to any equitable decision if you continue to call me an idiot, incorrectly apply my theory, and refuse to answer posts debating the merits of your theories of what Stargate canon entails?
@Cananatra: Really, really? The Xeelee starbreakers can smash through anything that the SG side uses. The Xeelee ships have faster FTL, easier time travel, and are basically indestructible. The only thing going for the SG side is project Arcturus, and maybe the Time Dilator (maybe). What, in the name of the Six-Fold God, could the SG side actually do to the Xeelee?
“When you get right down to it there is no way this deserves an award. The best the Xeelee faction can get to is a stalemate on the nature of time.
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The plain fact is that Xeelee theory has even less proof from its own series than the Sg theory, you guys just think its fine to ignore SG canon.”
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FFS Cut the bullshit. You continue to talk around the argument despite whats been repeated to you multiple times.
Talk specifics. Please. Less proof about what exactly? Was the checklist going through each individual aspect of the plan not broken down enough for you? The whole SG idea was never shown in canon, had a 50% chance of destroying the universe not 100, and was not proved in the way you continuously claim. If you are going to call me out right now for not talking specifics, take a look at the last couple of posts from the Xeelee side that you have yet to respond to.
*Only meant to bold the 50%
Oh, just thought of something:
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“ROD
Ah. Well, we detected the anomaly about twenty hours ago in space above the planet. We maneuvered one of our jumpers in close and tried to broadcast a signal to whoever was on the other side.
MCKAY
Yes, but of course, we would be unable to detect that signal from within the containment chamber.
ROD
So, Sheppard and I came up with a plan to beam a person into the anomaly. They would be protected by an Ancient personal force field we discovered.”
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An Ancient force shield was able to protect alternate McKay while he was inside the anomaly (the Arcturus particles leaking into the other universe). Unless I totally missed something in that episode, I think this means that the exotic particles can be shielded against.
That adds an even bigger dent.
There’s no point in even arguing anymore, it is perfectly clear that the Xeelee win.
Not that this is entirely needed since this thread is over, but I’ve been rewatching Stargate and I recently finished the original series and started in on Atlantis. I just wanted to reiterate my previous comments about the time discussion because I got to the episode Before I Sleep in which we find out the entire success of the Atlantis mission hinged on a change in the timeline:
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McKAY Wait a minute, back up a second. That isn’t the way it happened. Everything came online when we arrived. It was, uh, lights, computers, power control systems, everything. I was able to access the database immediately.
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ALT-WEIR That’s not what happened — not the first time.
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ALT-WEIR Seeing the city like this, sitting on the surface of the ocean — you can’t imagine how relieved I am.
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McKAY What are you saying? The city didn’t rise the first time round?
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ALT-WEIR No. No. The city was in serious trouble the very moment we arrived.
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WEIR Wait a second. Why didn’t the failsafe mechanism engage and raise the city to the surface?
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ALT-WEIR Because there was no failsafe the first time. Atlantis remained on the ocean floor. The shield completely collapsed. Water came crashing in, flooding every room in the city. (She looks at Aiden and Carson.) You both drowned while attempting to get our people into ships. (She looks at John.) And we, along with Doctor Zelenka, we found ourselves trapped.
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Markedly different than the events we see in the premier episode(s) Rising because this is the second runthrough of the timeline with some tweaks(Alt-Weir being the first runthrough Weir):
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JANIS There is one small problem, though. Someone will need to remain behind in the city to transfer the power from one device to the other — to rotate them sequentially.
ALT-WEIR Over thousands of years?
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JANIS It’s impossible to predict what’ll happen over such a long period of time. I’m convinced that you will survive. But, in the highly unlikely eventuality that you don’t, I’ve programmed the failsafe mechanism to protect the city.
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ALT-WEIR A failsafe?
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JANIS Yes. If the power drains to a critical level, the mechanism holding the city on the ocean floor will release, and it will rise to the surface.
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Notice that a passage of time is taking place (or as I’ve been saying “flow of time”) and it’s a completely new timeline that diverges from the moment Weir arrives in the past and Janis implements the power saving initiatives and failsafe protocols (new runthrough…also as I’ve been saying). Or as McKay puts it:
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WEIR Very. Very, very weird. (She looks at her older self again.) Looking at yourself — how you will be.
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McKAY Actually, how you will be will be different than how she is right now. You see, the moment she went back in time, she created a separate reality — a second “you” living in a parallel world; well, according to one of many interpretations of quantum theory. I mean, simply put, this interpretation states that, uh, the universe is in fact split into an infinite number of copies of itself in which every possible outcome to every decision ever made all exist somewhere in this infinitely layered multi-universe.
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The separate reality (or original as the case may be) may exist in a quantum sense theoretically, but it isn’t the reality we are concerned with because it isn’t the new reality created by the time travel event and that becomes the “main” reality. When the Xeelee timetravel that will be the reality, in those terms anyway, we are concerned with. Not some potential future reality stemming from the original circumstance to begin with (which applies to the AR hop strategy). I tried to point this out before, but there was a lack of understanding to what I was implying. When Stargate AR hops “in the future,” which is causally tied to the original timeline without any Xeelee timetravel, they in turn affect the original reality which the time traveling Xeelee are no longer a part of. Assuming a future exists in relation to the present dictated by the flow of time doesn’t mean it will be the one envisioned in the “main” reality because it’s dependent on those interim events:
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MOROS No. Enough of this tampering with time. Causality is not to be treated so lightly
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MELIA Let us hope Doctor Weir’s arrival has not altered this eventuality. By directly encountering the Wraith, she may have already set in motion a chain of events that could lead to a future far different from the one she left
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From the mouths of the Ancients. The events in 1969, 2010, It’s Good to Be King, Continuum, and Window of Opportunity that were used as proof to the contrary do not in any way invalidate the notion of causality (flow of time), in terms of viewing the timeline in relation to any time travel event, nor do they discount the idea of run-throughs of the timeline either. In fact 2010, Continuum, Moebius, Stargate Universe: Time, and this episode from Stargate Atlantis support that notion.
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And that concludes my unnecessary reiteration…
”An Ancient force shield was able to protect alternate McKay while he was inside the anomaly (the Arcturus particles leaking into the other universe).”
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Also, another unnecessary reiteration, in the same episode McKay and Mrs. Miller
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JEANIE Yeah. Apparently their exotic particle problem is spinning out of control much faster than they’d anticipated.
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McKAY Oh, boy.
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ROD But they have a solution.
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McKAY They do? That’s great.
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ROD Well, not really. Their solution will not only destroy Atlantis but tear a hole in the fabric of this universe.
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<b?McKAY Oh, boy.
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[Conference Room Rodney, Rod and Jeanie are reporting to Elizabeth and John]
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ROD Now, I’m not saying that their attempt would be successful, but if it was, it would flood the exotic particles that have been created on their side into this space time all at once.
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SHEPPARD And that would, uh …
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JEANIE … be bad.
SHEPPARD Right. I got that, but, uh …
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WEIR … how bad?
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McKAY Well, to be honest, the science gets extremely complicated, but simply put, the tear will eventually swallow up the entire galaxy, possibly the universe.
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Now, I’m still going through the episodes but as of right now there is also a “possible” way where those exotic particles that “possibly” destroy the affected universe can be thrown back through the created bridge detroying the universe that initiated the bridge to begin with.
AND, I really should have watched Stargate before because the Atlantis episode The Last Man pretty definitively shows what I was talking about in terms of passage of time, changing the timeline from the future etc..
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48,000 years pass (and then like 700 more after Sheppard arrives in the future pass) but McKay’s hologram recounts and entire lifetime of events that include Sheppard not being found (first runthrough of the timeline), which he is then found after 12 days (second runthrough) after which he changes the future based on information McKay gives him. But again reiteration on Causality (flow of time), and why the events in 1969 and It’s Good to Be King do not refute my argument and why Stargate canon has thoroughly been taken into account.
@Ptaine
In-universe Stargate Canon, you mean?
P.S: Mind dropping by this particular universe fight involving Sword of Truth, by any chance?