Suggested by StealthRanger
Making his debut on FactPile is Eldrad Ulthran from Warhammer 40K going up against Luke Skywalker from Star Wars.
Battle takes place on a neutral planet in an urban environment.
Both combatants get all their weapons and powers.
Who wins?
Loading ...
“I know Luke is capable of vast destruction, but Eldrad’s superior precog gives him the advantage. Eldrad is capable of vast destruction, too. I am speaking on general terms here. They seem fairly matched when it comes to one-on-one destruction, but Eldrad’s mind attacks and precog are what he has over Luke.”
-
Still seems to come down to speed then.
“No, just no… If you know the sun is going to explode, does that mean you can avoid it? NO! Precog only helps with things he can avoid, Luke is capable of vast destruction.”
-If anything it will be like Sherlock Holmes. “If you do this, he will try this, this, and/or this. Do this/move here to stop him.” kind of thing
“Still seems to come down to speed then.”
-
Indeed. As always ’round here. Speed decides victory
“Still seems to come down to speed then.”
-
Well, is there prep time? Then Eldrad probably wins. If there isn’t, how long does it take Eldrad to use his psychic abilities?
“Well, is there prep time? Then Eldrad probably wins. If there isn’t, how long does it take Eldrad to use his psychic abilities?”
-
Pretty sure he can use them in a combat situation
-
Anyways im going to check out that psykers respect thread on the topia
“Indeed. As always ’round here. Speed decides victory”
-
“For the soldier, speed is life.”
-Robert Jordan, author of the Wheel of Time, veteran of Vietnam.
-
It comes down to speed because we remove PIS and the strongest attacks are used immediately.
“Eldrad’s precog defeats this, though. At the very least it would give him the one advantage in the fight, and through 100 fights it would lead to more victories for him.”
-
Ah ok I just read the match notes and now I’m going with Eldrad too. His power set is better suited for the environment. Mind reading/precog (he’ll know where Luke is) + mental attack from across the city that doesn’t need line of sight = win. The big thing here is they’re in a city and Luke doesn’t know where Eldrad is. Luke could theoretically just level the entire city but that’s not in character for him. Eldrad’s going to cast his one shot kill first because he’s going to acquire a target first. This match actually isn’t decided by speed, it’s decided by recon and target acquisition.
@w00t
Well both characters seem to be equal in abilities and destructive capability and have some similar ability but i think i too am leaning toward Eldrad given his mental powers and the mind game
I just read the match notes now, too, and if the mind attack works without line of sight and doesn’t have a maximum range, then Eldrad probably wins.
-
However, if Luke can teleport himself with that Space Fold, he could just teleport away and Force-nuke the city. That is assuming, though, that he doesn’t get mind-attacked while away from the city.
So…quick-draw session time?
Ahh, didn’t read the description, yeah Luke gets raped.
” yeah Luke gets raped.”
-
This is assuming, though, that the mind attack works without line of sight AND it doesn’t have a maximum range. While this seems to be logical, does anyone know for sure?
“So…quick-draw session time?”
-
Thats what it sounds like her
-
“However, if Luke can teleport himself with that Space Fold, he could just teleport away and Force-nuke the city. That is assuming, though, that he doesn’t get mind-attacked while away from the city.”
-
Im pretty sure high level psykers also have city/mountain busting abilities. Let alone ones of Eldrad’s caliber. They can teleport too
-
“Ahh, didn’t read the description, yeah Luke gets raped.”
-
Would the arena make a difference here?
@Major
Or not!
“Would the arena make a difference here?”
-
Yes, because Eldrad’s mind attack might work without line of sight, and he could kill Luke before Luke knew he was even there.
“Yes, because Eldrad’s mind attack might work without line of sight, and he could kill Luke before Luke knew he was even there.”
-
I was thinking the arena would give Eldrad the advantage
“Yes, because Eldrad’s mind attack might work without line of sight, and he could kill Luke before Luke knew he was even there.”
-Or there would be more stuff to psychicly through at each other.
“This is assuming, though, that the mind attack works without line of sight AND it doesn’t have a maximum range. While this seems to be logical, does anyone know for sure?”
-
Well we need proof to make these assumptions.
Aelfinn, while Eldrad has precog, so does Luke.
Also … I’m not sure if Eldrad’s precog is viable in-combat or not. IIRC, while he has exceptional foresight, we don’t know how long it takes him to look into the future.
I think that there are examples of combat precog in 40k, but I don’t know if Eldrad has any, and from what I remember, the combat precog needs to be activated.
Luke’s Force combat precog is something he could do without activation, and little training.
@w00t
In the WH40k universe, the different psyker grades are a representation of how much warp energy a psyker can channel through himself/herself. No psyker has a special power which they can utilize, there are some they prefer over other certainly but if they can channel a certain amount of warp energy, then they can channel a certain amount of warp energy and do with it whatever they will. Being an alpha level psyker allows for one to destroy a planet (essentially meaning they could channel enough warp energy to destroy a mid sized planet given time). Therefore if one is an alpha plus psyker then they should, using the logical route, be able to destroy a planet with less trouble than just an alpha psyker.
@w00t
This is an exact quote form the psyker page on the warhamer 40k wikia. And btw carefully read that last sentence:
-
“An Alpha Plus grade psyker, however, is a being of almost grotesque power. They are described as being able to “turn a man inside-out with a glance”, “snap a Battle Titan in half with a flick of the wrist”, and “a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of blood lust”. They are capable of destroying entire worlds – sometimes unintentionally.”
-
BTW No one is allowed to destroy a planet in the IoM except for the inquisition. So although Mephiston has not destroyed a planet and won’t, he has the ability to is all I’m saying.
“An Alpha Plus grade psyker, however, is a being of almost grotesque power. They are described as being able to “turn a man inside-out with a glance”, “snap a Battle Titan in half with a flick of the wrist”, and “a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of blood lust”. They are capable of destroying entire worlds – sometimes unintentionally.”
-
Well covers it. And Eldrad has the advantage in raw destructive power
-
“So although Mephiston has not destroyed a planet and won’t, he has the ability to is all I’m saying.”
-
Basically CIS
@everyone
so unless luke has got some batshit crazy feats up his ass I haven’t heard I think eldrad has this match in raw power and then with his pre-cognitive skills it just is more icing to the cake.
“so unless luke has got some batshit crazy feats up his ass I haven’t heard I think eldrad has this match in raw power and then with his pre-cognitive skills it just is more icing to the cake.”
-
Yeah, as long as you ignore the fact that we don’t know if Eldrad has combat precog and that Luke can teleport off planet, and then force storm the planet.
“Yeah, as long as you ignore the fact that we don’t know if Eldrad has combat precog and that Luke can teleport off planet, and then force storm the planet.”
-
Has Luke ever shown interplanetary level teleportation to efectively do this?
-
Plus wouldn’t that be considered leaving the arena anyways?
“Has Luke ever shown interplanetary level teleportation to efectively do this?”
-
He has teleported other objects to different planets.
-
-
“Plus wouldn’t that be considered leaving the arena anyways?”
-
You’re the suggester, does it?
“Plus wouldn’t that be considered leaving the arena anyways?”
Not since he can effectively fight back. It’s not his problem if he can do something (in this case teleport elsewhere) that lets him lob destruction at Eldrad while Eldrad cannot harm him.
The Fold Space technique is instantaneous over any distance, and has been used instead of a hyperdrive on multiple occasions – the Aang-tii don’t have hyperdrives, they just Fold Space their cruisers to where they want to be.
@zom
a standard psychic power even weak librarians can use is comabt pre-cog; unless of course they are trying to read the minds of certain aliens and daemons. And they are not allowed to level the planet, besides if luke had to leave the planet where the hell would he force storm from O.o empty space? Uldrad can do it while on the planet and not get hit by his own shit, farseers do it all the time.
“He has teleported other objects to different planets”
-
Very well, i’ll concede that
-
“You’re the suggester, does it?”
-
Im sure other people have said that doing something like that is considered leaving the arena
-
But Eldrad has his own foresight to sense Luke would do this and would likely Eldritch storm him after teleporting there (i think he can do this)
@zom
Here is a direct quote from reference.com about just normal eldar farseers abilities, and even weaker psychers known as warlocks.
-
“The Farseers lead in times of war as well as peace. On the battlefield their powers of precognition allow them to foresee the enemy’s attacks and movements and warn their comrades against imminent changes on the field of battle. While less capable of foreseeing events in such harried conditions, the Warlocks, especially those who have already tread the Path of an Aspect Warrior, will often serve as officers in battle, leading units of other Eldar, and helping to coordinate the overall battle, as well as to lend support by utilizing their considerable psychic powers.”
-
Even the most basic psychic eldar can utilize combat precog abilities.
“Well covers it. And Eldrad has the advantage in raw destructive power”
-
No it absolutely does not cover it. It’s an uncited wiki entry with vague wording. How many times have you heard about how the Soviet Union could destroy the world with their nukes? Or about how between us and them we could destroy the world several times over? They’re not talking about planetbusting, that’s life wiping. To clarify, life wiping is killing everything on the planet. Most types of exterminatus do that, the Halos do it, and we do in fact have more enough nukes to life wipe. Planet busting is what the Death Star did, where you turn a planet into an asteroid field or less. The difference between the other listed feats and planetbusting is staggering. It takes a couple megatons to kill an Emperator Titan according to you guys, it takes at the very least 53,000,000,000,000,000 megatons to planetbust. The difference between snapping a titan and busting a planet is a thousand times greater than the combined manpower of the entire Imperial Guard! It would be extremely deceptive to put that in the same list of powers as “turning a man inside out” and “can snap a titan in two”.
-
Also, I have to point out that nothing actually says Eldrad, Mephiston, and the like are alpha psykers. Magnus, the GEOM, and some greater daemons are in by virtue of having shown titan busting or greater power. The chief librarians and Eldrad have no comparable feats.
-
Also you guys need to start considering the implications of a planetbuster in an army’s ranks. Logically speaking, a guy who can put out 53 quadrillion megatons can throw out kilotons and megatons as fast as he can say the words/make the motions/think the thoughts. This makes the very concept of armies obsolete. It also completely changes the space warfare game. Because a guy who can throw out 53 quadrillion megatons can also STOP 53 quadrillion megatons worth, just one of these guys would all but guarantee victory in a space battle held between ships with petaton yields. He has the firepower equivalent of 9 million nova cannons or the ability to shield his fleet from the same.
-
“BTW No one is allowed to destroy a planet in the IoM except for the inquisition. So although Mephiston has not destroyed a planet and won’t, he has the ability to is all I’m saying.”
-
I’m fairly confident Space Marines can do exterminatus on their own judgement, and some (not all) forms of exterminatus are planetbusters.
“The chief librarians and Eldrad have no comparable feats.”
-
Its called powerscaling
-
“No it absolutely does not cover it. It’s an uncited wiki entry with vague wording”
-
Im pretty sure there were quotes for it on 40k vs SG but i don’t feel like digging for it
-
“The difference between snapping a titan and busting a planet is a thousand times greater than the combined manpower of the entire Imperial Guard!”
-
Erm, im pretty sure the combined IG could planet bust with their massive navy as planet busting not exactly unheard of in 40k. If you strictly meant ground forces however
@w00t
You need a inquisitorial seal to do exterminatus, or you have to get permission form the inquisition nuff said. and btw there are different types of exterminatus, ranging from what you said (glassing the planet), to outright destruction of the planet and turning it into little chunks. Alpha+ level psykers can do both.
-
The argument you using is ridiculous, since I assume you are wanting the exact passage it says this in which book. The wiki I took it from is from the best WH40k source of information on the internet besides the lexicanum. It’s not some random bullshit. It seems like you are arguing for the sake of it. And I said it is under the psyker section of the wiki.
-
here is the exact url and then crtl f the big ass excerpt and it’ll take you right to it on the page.
warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Psyker
-
this is a very reputable source of information considering you can’t just add articles that are bullshit they’ll tear them down in a second, it works like wikipedia in that aspect.
-
RRRRRRRAAAAGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Its called powerscaling”
-
From what exactly? Magnus and the Emperor are far beyond Eldrad and the others.
-
“Erm, im pretty sure the combined IG could planet bust with their massive navy as planet busting not exactly unheard of in 40k. If you strictly meant ground forces however”
-
First off the IG has exactly 0 ships. The Imperial Navy is an entirely separate organization. Second, I meant that there are less men in the Imperial Guard than the mentioned multiple.
-
@CS, we don’t accept wikis on here. Lexicanum is notoriously inaccurate. Tau43 just pulled a section of farseer powers from there where I have no idea where half of them come from cuz they’re not in the codex. You need to find the actual quote from the actual book as evidence. Until then it can’t be accepted.
“From what exactly? Magnus and the Emperor are far beyond Eldrad and the others.”
-
Thats not what i meant. In the 40k vs SG thread there were quotes on the Alpha+ level psykers being planet busters (i think?). And Eldrad is above the bog standard Alpha+
-
“First off the IG has exactly 0 ships. The Imperial Navy is an entirely separate organization. Second, I meant that there are less men in the Imperial Guard than the mentioned multiple.”
-
Didn’t know that as the only 40k material i own is the Dawn of War series where everything is very nerfed
-
“You need to find the actual quote from the actual book as evidence. Until then it can’t be accepted.”
-
I think there were some on 40k vs SG
I would really like a quote from something besides the wiki on alpha+ level psykers destroying planets. Their other powers being supported would be nice, too. A wiki is not proof, no matter how strictly regulated.
AFAIK, there’s never actually been an instance where we see or hear about an Alpha+ psyker destroying a planet. In addition, so far as I know, that’s also in relation to untrained, unsanctioned psykers – who can loose control of their powers and serve as gates to the Warp and for Daemons. The more powerful the psyker is when he looses control, the longer he lasts before being burned out and the gate closes. All of this is what is considered a Bad Thing. In addition, the Imperium of Man lies.
@everyone
I don’t know about you guys but since wikipedia is very accurate and is regulated like the one I referenced, you are allowed to cite it as a source on college essays. In fact, I have cited from it on occasion.
-
Or is there a rule stating you cannot use wikis on this cite, because if there is i’d like to argue with it.
-
@w00t
can you post a single article that is not accurate on the warhammer 40k lexicanum?
besides, on every single warhammer40k thread here I’ve never seen anyone ever ask for a specific citation from the codex or books themselves. Or other universes either.
“I don’t know about you guys but since wikipedia is very accurate and is regulated like the one I referenced, you are allowed to cite it as a source on college essays. In fact, I have cited from it on occasion.”
-
Do you go to community college or something? You’d get laughed out of the school if you tried that at Northwestern… Hell my high school didn’t even let you cite wikipedia.
-
Lexicanum lists Anaen under destroyed craftworlds, a couple years ago it said it was Baharroth’s craftworld but not anymore. Neither of these “facts” are mentioned anywhere else, and neither is Anaen. That’s just one I personally caught. I occasionally lurk at 40k forums and the prevailing opinion is that Lexicanum is a piece of shit.
@w00t
well if your goal is to discredit my argument and bash my school then fine (and no I don’t go to a community college; not that there should be anything wrong with that a.k.a. don’t be an asshole), I got no more to say if this argument is going to turn into a spewing hate fest. And yes as you can imagine, I also have a relic forums account, and honestly the 40k Wikia and the Lexicanum are the only two credible sources that they reference on the internet apart from the books and codices themselves (then again they don’t allow for people to pit certain individuals against one another for this expressed reason; where he have people on a quest to discredit others information).
-
Regardless and back on topic, I still think that there is a ample evidence to suggest eldrad will win.
-
1.) He has comparable if not greater destructive power than Luke
2.)Eldrad has pre-cognition in and out of combat
-
@w00t
(I ask this in all seriousness) If the wikia and the lexicanum are worthless debate materials for 40K, where else on the internet is there undisputed material? If you’re saying that I have to have the physical copy of the book for me to pull an example out of then I am sorry to say, but that would invalidate many peoples arguments who use the internet as their main/sole source of knowledge.
“1.) He has comparable if not greater destructive power than Luke
2.)Eldrad has pre-cognition in and out of combat”
1) It’s generally agreed that whomever hits first wins.
2) Luke has precog in and out of combat as well.
@kytheros
Does lukes mind reading out of combat come sporadically or can he call on it at will? Also, is his pre-cognitive ability in combat have to do with mind reading or actually knowing the future?
@stealthranger
for the sake of argument can we assume both attack each other at the same time?
I don’t see what out of combat mind-reading has to do with anything.
That said … it is not based on mind reading. Exactly how Jedi/Sith/Force combat precog works is never gone into in-depth, nor is the “danger sense”, but (going off memory here) I think it’s basically just a very tightly focused version and application of the out of combat version, which can do prophesies, or other visions of the future.
The danger sense and combat precog (they’re different, though similar) are basically always on once you’ve figured out how to do it and keep up with your training/practice.
@kytheros
eldrads pre-cognition is able to predict things hundreds of years before they happen. He can also call upon it at will if he has a certain goal he wishes to achieve.
-
Examples being he predicted Horus would turn on the emperor. and before he was engaged in a navel battle in space, he used his pre-cog sense to show him where the enemy fleet was going to come into the system.
-
Point being, it is possible if eldrad knew what he was looking for he could foresee its location and etc. So if they were not starting out facing each other in open combat (assuming they did not begin on an open part of the city) and eldrad was told about his assailant he could foresee him (<– although I apologize this scenario is extravagant).
-
My big concern is I don't think either of them could attack so fast the other wouldn't be able to react, in my honest opinion. The way I see this fight working out is that one of them gets the just, but the other one notices (using his combat senses or equivalent) and then the more powerful one wins the engagement. And I think in terms of feats of alpha+ psykers luke is outmatched in regards to raw power. And if it came down to swordsmanship I think Eldrad would take the cake because 1.) He has around 10,000 years of experiance 2.) He is the only creature to ever survive the experience of Dueling abaddon the despoiler.
sorry typo, ‘The way I see this fight working out is that one of them gets the *jump*’.
@Crimson Sentry
“for the sake of argument can we assume both attack each other at the same time?”
-
Very well
This may seem kinda moot, but will Eldrads armor help him at all if it goes to melee? oh and on sidenote posted another (and btter) suggestion up
“@w00t
(I ask this in all seriousness) If the wikia and the lexicanum are worthless debate materials for 40K, where else on the internet is there undisputed material? If you’re saying that I have to have the physical copy of the book for me to pull an example out of then I am sorry to say, but that would invalidate many peoples arguments who use the internet as their main/sole source of knowledge.”
-
Its called an online copy, they’re not hard to find. The only thing you should ever even consider using a wiki for is if it lists the sources it used on a subject, so you can go find them yourself firsthand.
-
Sure I own the majority of the books I quote from, but if you wanna be a cheater (I do ’cause typing out the entire quote is just a waste of time if I can copy and paste it in a few seconds rather than 10 mins):
-
www.scribd.com
-
Enjoy…
I am telling you to *acquire* the materials in question. Note the word choice, it is deliberate. Specifically, I’m telling you to acquire the materials the same way you acquired Adobe Photoshop, Microsoft Office, or Windows 7 if it didn’t already come with your computer. We live in the information age. The internet isn’t just for free porn. That’s all I’m saying.
“The internet isn’t just for free porn. That’s all I’m saying.”
-
…
It ISRN’T?
“It ISRN’T?”
-
Well i’ve been ripped off then >.>
Well, I HAVE ARRIVED PRAISE THE OMNISSIAH!!!
.
Anyway, I would first like to address the fact that Eldrad is not in fact planet busting, not through sheer power. However he is an alpha+ in that he is one of the greatest at farseeing, able to see 10′s of thousands of years into the future with incredible accuracy. He is an absolute beast in combat, beating Abaddon, and would likely crush Luke with his mind.
.
Next, of the listed people Only the Apex Twins, and Magnus are Alpha+ The Emperor is between Gamma+ and Omega+.
.
And psychic powers are not line of sight, as even low grade psykers can reach across solar systems with their powers and can mind rape people from there (examples include Dark Creed, Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Soul Drinkers and many many more)
.
Also, I can provide quotes for the above if anyone wishes, however on an example of alpha+ busting planets and alpha controlling them (which is where Eldrads mind control should be).
.
“The other occasion had been on Delta Arbuthnot, when a potent, alpha-level psyker had forced an entire planetary population of ratling agri-serfs to rise up against the landowners in an orgy of bloodshed, even though they were armed with no more than shovels and their foes with automatic weapons.” Hunt for Voldorius, p.157
.
Oh and there are other examples of Alpha+ psykers controlling millions to billions in the case of the prophecy of midnight, and the Cacodominus controlled something like 1400 planetary systems, anyway, world destroying. (the device makes alpha+ psykers)
.
“They had many names for it: the Psymagnus Apparat, Anulus Rex, the God- Hand… But LaHayn preferred the designation the Gethsemenites had given the device. They simply called it the engine, a fitting name for a device that held the power to remake the stars.
…
Vaun allowed himself one last moment of regret: he had forged such great plans from the day he had learned of the psi-engine’s existence. The psyker pirate wanted to turn it to his own cause, to make himself unstoppable against the Inquisition or any other foe that would stand against him. He did not care about the wars between LaHayn’s precious Emperor and the mad beasts of the Chaos Gods -all he wanted was to aggrandise himself, to plunder any world he cared to and shatter those that displeased him. All that was ashes now, and in moments he would be too. He thought of the boy Ignis, dead now, his face lit with callous glee at the thought of a planet’s death.I’ ll give you that, lad, he told the ghost-memory. We’ll have revenge yet.”
Pgs.93-103 Faith and Fire
Also, Lexicanum is pretty accurate, but it does occasionally slip up, I myself have found some errors in it.
So… its a stomp for Eldrad?
-
I mean both seem to have ways to eliminate eachother and all…
“So… its a stomp for Eldrad?
-
I mean both seem to have ways to eliminate eachother and all…
Stomp for Eldrad? No.
-
Both can annihilate the other with the first attack that hits.
Both have tactical combat precog. Luke also has the more utilitarian danger sense.
Both have strategic prescience.
The question then becomes which one can better evade the attacks of the other. In this respect, I believe – barring feats from Elrad that I am presently unaware of – that since Luke can teleport himself, he has the advantage in evading attacks.
@Stealth no not a stomp, well, if they aren’t in visual sight and there is no stipulations to the battle then it could be a stomp as Eldrad snaps his mind in the first seconds of the match, before completely annihilating him. If you decide that they will have a physical battle or something then it is much more of a toss up, them being pretty similar in combat feats, as both are bullet timers and have incredible prowess, but I would bet on Eldrad having more strength by dint of being able to face Abaddon.
@Kytheros Lukes pre-cog is utter shit compared to Eldar, with the Bane series showing that it just gives you a bad feeling in a general direction and such, where Eldars is actual pre-cog in advanced detail happening thousands of years ago.
@Kytheros
“The question then becomes which one can better evade the attacks of the other. In this respect, I believe – barring feats from Elrad that I am presently unaware of – that since Luke can teleport himself, he has the advantage in evading attacks.”
-
Psykers can teleport too. So Its not going to be just Luke teleporting all over the place surprising Eldrad. He’ll have to look out for teleport attacks from Eldrad too
-
@Dues Ex
I did intend an all out match
-
But im glad this isn’t a stomp tho
-
55:45 Eldrad, i think
Hilariously enough, a Grey Knight can teleport all around a star system on a whim, and they are vastly inferior to Eldrad in psychic abilities.
Eh, at least this match is better than Luke Skywalker vs Mephiston, rite?
“@Kytheros Lukes pre-cog is utter shit compared to Eldar, with the Bane series showing that it just gives you a bad feeling in a general direction and such, where Eldars is actual pre-cog in advanced detail happening thousands of years ago.”
The Bane series is not the only source for information on the danger sense and combat precognition employed by Force-users (yes, they’re two separate abilities, though they are similar). In this case, the combat/tactical precog for Luke has been shown (in Choices of One, which takes place between A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back) to actually show him what will happen (he can then choose to do something about it or not). Luke has both the danger sense and combat/tactical precog. They’re not the same thing. In addition, Luke also has strategic prescience.
On Eldrad’s strategic precog, such as you refer to, we do not know how long it takes for him to preform those strategic precog feats. Therefore, we cannot assume any tactical utility from it, limiting him to the more normal combat precognitive abilities demonstrated by other Eldar and other psykers. In addition, we also don’t know how much effort that Eldrad, or anyone else viewing the future, has to put in to shape choices towards a particular future – remember, in 40k, foretelling the future shows possiblities of how the future plays out – some are more likely than others, and choices made between now (when you look into the future) and the then when you were looking forward to can and do alter how the events of the then will play out. Remember, the Eldar meddle in the affairs of others in order to affect which future will come to pass.
-
@StealthRanger – can you provide a quote or other evidence to prove that psykers (and Eldrad in particular) can teleport? As far as I know, the only instances involving purely psychic powers and teleportation involve either a Navigator talent, or Sorcery (neither of which are available to Eldrad).
Grey Knights (so far as I know) can only teleport around a solar system with a teleport pack – that is, with mechanical assistance. And only the psychically strongest Grey Knights can do the cross-system teleports since they have to shield themselves in the warp.
The Grey Knights do it with sheer psychic might in some cases, and it isn’t just Grey Knights, it is any psyker of sufficient power, the ranges are shown in Dark Heresy I believe, I can find them if you want?
.
And Eldrad has everything planned out thousands of ears in advance, likely already having seen this fight, and both his pre-cogs are up to the task, not that it will matter as he shatters Luke’s mind as soon as the match begins. And one of his famous feats is shifting through millions of possible futures (maybe more) and finding the only one where he would survive, then doing it.
Let’s just be glad that this is a better fight than Mephiston’s regards, agreed?
Or for that matter a Tartarus of a lot better than any of the big 3 that gives me the kill-trigger pulses, every time, for that matter, right?
“Let’s just be glad that this is a better fight than Mephiston’s regards, agreed?”
-
Yeah, it wasn’t a stomp against Luke like vs Mephiston was
@S.R
Or any of the Big 3 Kill-pulsational fights i listed time and again(albeit the 2nd one’s making honest atonements, at least, which i will NOT grant the 1st and 3rd of the three likewise, right?) for that matter, right?
What about if this fight were Purely a Sword-fight?
In Dark Heresy you need a teleport pack.
The only instances in which you do not are the Create Door Sorcery power, or with Rogue Trader, there is a Navigator power that lets you teleport a few meters if you could get there via normal movement.
-
“And Eldrad has everything planned out thousands of ears in advance, likely already having seen this fight, and both his pre-cogs are up to the task, not that it will matter as he shatters Luke’s mind as soon as the match begins. And one of his famous feats is shifting through millions of possible futures (maybe more) and finding the only one where he would survive, then doing it.”
Hold it. I’m not buying the “Eldrad’s already seen this match” plan. That would be prep time. A lot of prep time.
So while this fight isn’t over until we KNOW the Cosmic Fat Lady starts singing, any response to my question in regards to a ‘Pure’ Sword-fight, so to speak, with only Speed Enhancements factored in?
“@StealthRanger – can you provide a quote or other evidence to prove that psykers (and Eldrad in particular) can teleport?”
-
….
-
(Sorry can’t get the exact quotes since I’m in school.)
-
Teleportation feats for psykers? They’re literally everywhere, even in tabletop 40k. The Ork Weirdboy has ” ‘Ere We Go” that teleports him and his unit somewhere else on the battlefield. Space Marine Librarians (this includes Grey Knight Librarians) have “The Gate of Infinity” (if anyone can get to the psyker respect thread I believe I put the one up for the gate of a Salamanders Librarian teleporting ship to ship with it.)
-
The Gate of Infinity is also a Librarian psyker power in the Deathwatch RPG.
-
But those are just two of the simplest examples… Teleportation is a really common psyker feat though… (Just wish I could access sources in my current position…)
prep time is only momentary, as in “you are about to fight an armored warrior with varied psychic abilities; fight!”. there will be no time for foretelling other than what can be done in that time, and there is also no foretelling from characters original universes, since they are ripped out of them specifically for this fight and then “put back in” just as they had left. also why books of prophecy and such in different universes don’t foretell of factpile fights, and even would mess with omniscient beings knowledge of prior to the fight(not that it would matter since when they get here, they would then know everything there is to know about the new situation also).
-
-
-that said, surprisingly i haven’t seen much cited feats for either of these guys, and what has been cited only shows vague things. this match is far from being proved one way or the other.
Up above I already cited Eldrad’s melee exploits, his most notable one being he survived (not won, survived) a duel with Abaddon the Despoiler, who by the way is a deadlier melee combatant than Kharn, and I can say that because he has hax and has marks form all the chaos gods; this is common knowledge.
-
@Deus
Eldrad is roughly only 10,000 years old, and right now he is presumed dead or is fighting the psyhic forces of a blackstone fortress, which btw has enough psychic power to injure fully feed C’tan (which for everyone’s information are incredibly difficult to actually damage).
@Deus
^that comment above wasn’t a bash on you Deus; it’s just informative ^_^.
-
@Kytheros
I asked stealth whether or not the combatants would be attacking at full power at the same time from the get go and he said yes. So this fight in my opinion comes down to exactly how powerful each combatant is (for instance if they each shot lightening at each other which would be more powerful etc..). Btw the I was looking through the 4th edition rulebook for the tabletop and the fluff where it mentions the alpha level psykers abilities (alpha not alpha+ even), said that an alpha level psyker could snap a battle titan with a flick of his wrist. Also Kytheros, what in your opinion is Luke’s greatest force feat. The mini black hole one seems to take the cake so far if Im not mistaken
Luke’s greatest Force feat? I’m not sure – to be clear, I don’t have all the relevant EU materials.
-
After a certain point, it doesn’t matter which one is more powerful – either one is capable of killing off an entire planet with a single attack (granted, Luke generally wouldn’t do that sort of thing) – either one can kill the other with the first attack that hits – at that point, it doesn’t matter who’s attack leaves a smaller pile of ash behind – dead is dead, and you can’t get much deader.
That’s why I believe this match comes down to who can evade better. It’s like dodgeball – you get hit, you’re gone, so you want to not get hit.
I keep hearing about Luke’s “battle-active precog”. Is this the same precog for him as it is for standard Jedi and Sith? Because if it is, it provides a couple of seconds warning, at most.
-
If Eldrad’s precog can go for a farther time ahead and can be activated at will, then it would appear that his precog is better.
-
Because of all of these destructive capabilities, I would believe that Eldrad’s mind attack would win it for him, as Luke has no defense against it.
“If Eldrad’s precog can go for a farther time ahead and can be activated at will, then it would appear that his precog is better.”
-Most Farseers have to meditate to use precog. However I’m not sure if Eldrad has too as well.
The tactical-scale precognitive abilities of each combatant are loosely equivalent, and take effectively no time and are passive, as far as I know.
Luke’s are always on, and Eldrad’s (as far as I know, based on other 40k tactical precog) is not automatically on, but can be activated and sustained indefinitely.
-
The strategic precognitive/prescience abilities of each combatant are less well defined in terms of what is necessary to use them, especially in terms of time.
No one is disputing that Eldrad has excellent strategic precognitive abilities. However, he does not have the time to utilize them.
“The tactical-scale precognitive abilities of each combatant are loosely equivalent, and take effectively no time and are passive, as far as I know.
Luke’s are always on, and Eldrad’s (as far as I know, based on other 40k tactical precog) is not automatically on, but can be activated and sustained indefinitely.”
-Sorry forgot about Doom and Guide.
“Up above I already cited Eldrad’s melee exploits, his most notable one being he survived (not won, survived) a duel with Abaddon the Despoiler, who by the way is a deadlier melee combatant than Kharn, and I can say that because he has hax and has marks form all the chaos gods; this is common knowledge.”
-
I think you have a strange definition of not winning. In the account I read Abaddon ended up with Eldrad’s staff through his chest while Eldrad was perfectly fine. If the chaos gods hadn’t whisked Abaddon away he would’ve died right there. That counts as winning in my book. And the seer council had nothing to do with it. By the time Eldrad skewered Abaddon they were all dead.
“And the seer council had nothing to do with it. By the time Eldrad skewered Abaddon they were all dead.”
-No, they were help. They act as amps of a sort for the Farseer’s power. He draws off of them. And they have been allowed as long as they’re just amps not combatants.
“No, they were help. They act as amps of a sort for the Farseer’s power. He draws off of them. And they have been allowed as long as they’re just amps not combatants.”
-
They act in a similar fashion to cosmic entities ‘helping’ Dr Strange
Although if Luke decides to attack the Seer Counsel they’ll roast him.
“-No, they were help. They act as amps of a sort for the Farseer’s power. He draws off of them. And they have been allowed as long as they’re just amps not combatants.”
-
Your reading comprehension needs work. I was talking about Eldrad vs Abaddon not the current match. When Eldrad personally met Abaddon in battle the seer council was already dead. He beat Abaddon by himself, not with the help of the council as I’ve seen suggested earlier in the thread.
“Your reading comprehension needs work. I was talking about Eldrad vs Abaddon not the current match. When Eldrad personally met Abaddon in battle the seer council was already dead. He beat Abaddon by himself, not with the help of the council as I’ve seen suggested earlier in the thread.”
-
What he meant to say is that the seer council is allowed as they are simply summons rather than separate entities (or at least its summoning in a similar fashion to how Dr Strange calls on cosmic entities)
“Eldrad vs Abaddon not the current match.”
-In that match He used them as amps and combatants. It’s kind of like how an Uxor uses her aids for amplification.
@w00t
good call, the 4th edition eldar codex only goes as far to say they fought I didn’t get the details, but the fact that eldrad came out on top should cement his prowess as a melee combatant even further. And I wouldn’t hesitate to say that his melee combat abilities are definitely superior to abaddon.
^sorry meant superior to luke’s
Are we not including the Eldar codex as canon? Because, if we are, I believe that Eldrad might actually have Luke out-classed in the wargear that he is bringing to the table. Luke walks in with a light-saber, force powers, and (probably not, but still useless) a blaster pistol?
Eldrad has an answer to everything that I’ve seen brought to the table by the SW fans, and definitely a lot more to be brought than what all of the 40K people are claiming he has.
Examples:
Rune Armour: Eldrad’s is even more intricate than a normal farseer’s, as it grants him even more protection. The warding protection is not armour-based, and as such provides against lightsaber as well as destructive force-powers.
Ghost-helm: (Might be moot, but if the Force and the Warp are deemed one in the same:) Masks Eldrad’s spirit from the malevolence within the warp, I’d wager even protects him from detection within there.
Runes of Warding: (A BIG advantage to hold over Luke) These runes are used to psychically interfere with Eldrad’s foe’s concentration and ability to grasp to their mental abilities. Ouch…
Runes of Witnessing: (As if his precog was not enough) Eldrad’s navigation of the strands of fate are made even-more accurate. The chances he will miscalculate or screw up a psychic power are practically null.
Spirit Stones: These can charge Eldrad with Warp energies, and allow him a more rapid use of his powers.
But his chosen weapon of choice is the Staff of Ulthamar, so just when his psychic ability has plateaued, he is able to use more power and even make other powers more effective or devastating.
Eldrad has the experience of many millenia under his belt. In this battle, should he be himself as coming close to the end of his days, his power and resilience is immense. He is known to have guided entire craft-worlds, subtly manipulated other races into a path more favourable to the Eldar, thwarted the freshly arisen gods of the Necrons (who have their own masteries), pitted his mind against the corrupted psychic matrix of a weapon that is meant to fell the Necron gods (and won, but had his spirit cast into the warp and chaos) and is more than happy to sacrifice millions of human lives for the survival of even a few hundred Eldar lives.
Ruthless, powerful, resilient, well-armed, and would have already started manipulating Luke’s path along fate well before the battle took place. Now…who thinks Luke even had a chance in this battle? Also, I agree with placing the 40K heavy-hitters against anything else not OP. We really already know the outcomes.
Reference Eldar Codex (2006 edition)
Sorry for double posting, and sorry for the ill-formatted nature of my last post. Just made an account to give my two cents.
@Mike and Kytheros the prep time isn’t necessary, they can still see mildly in the future, and they don’t start in range any way, however pre-cog in 40k is good enough that a random Human mook can dodge guys unloading rounds at him perfectly, I can go find the book, it is in one of the Dark Heresy novels.
.
@CrimsonSentry he is in the Horus Heresy novels (Fulgrim) and is telling about the day that Humanity will die (on Armaggeddon) unless stuff happens.
.
And if someone could post some feats for Luke that would be great, I am going to look for some Eldrad ones.
“@Mike and Kytheros the prep time isn’t necessary, they can still see mildly in the future, and they don’t start in range any way, however pre-cog in 40k is good enough that a random Human mook can dodge guys unloading rounds at him perfectly, I can go find the book, it is in one of the Dark Heresy novels.”
I’m not saying they can’t use their tactical precog – they can. I’m saying that the strategic precog feats are not usable because they can’t have used it before being brought into the matchverse, and they don’t have time to use their strategic precog once they’re in the matchverse.
I’m also saying that since either one is sufficiently powerful to kill an inhabited planet, they each can kill the other with the first attack that hits, then it doesn’t really matter who’s attack would leave behind a smaller pile of ash; as such I think it comes down to the ability to evade attacks.
Both have tactical-level precognitive abilities.
Both can teleport, although available feats we can use for Eldrad suggest he’s limited to teleporting within a particular solar system, while Luke’s feats indicate he can teleport across interstellar distances.
@Kytheros I assume Luke wouldn’t try teleporting instantly, which would allow Eldrad to mind rape him.
@Deus Ex Machina – if Luke isn’t teleporting instantly, that means he’s launching an attack of his own. That means they both die.
Also, there have been times when mindraping was attempted against Luke. Eldrad mindraping Luke would not be an instant kill.
There’s also the option for Luke’s first action to be channeling the raw power of the Force, in effect becoming an avatar of the Force, at least, as I understand it. Should that be the case, Eldrad would (effectively) be trying to mindrape the Force itself. For some reason, I doubt that Eldrad could mindrape the Force itself. Now, that said, I admit I could be misunderstanding/misinterpreting the details of that ability.
@Kytheros
Actually, the time you are talking about is during the battle of Fallanassi village, with Abeloth. He didn’t so much become an “Avatar” of the Force, as he was able to channel a great deal of it through himself. The feat caused him to emanate the light side of the Force, and harmed Abeloth because because of her affinity for the dark side. So Luke can channel a great deal of the Light Side, so Eldrad can channel a great deal of the Warp.
.
Eldrad’s Mind War would still effect Luke substantially. Of course, this is despite the fact that Luke might still not be able to fully channel all of the force, due to the Runes of Warding that Eldrad would be employing.
.
And while the “Fold Space” Force ability is great, it does not teleport people, only objects. (starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fold_space)
Luke is not only stuck in this battle, but his prime “Avatar” ability is nothing more than expending more concentration to channel the Force moreso. With everything labeled for Eldrad, case and point to the Farseer from Ulthwe
@Kytheros actually they would both be trying to find each other first, which 40k psykers are excellent at. And no that force thing you mentioned makes no real sense.
And just to nip the whole “Luke could use Force stealth to hide from Eldrad”, Force stealth, and I quote:
.
Force stealth also referred to as Force Concealment or Buried Presence[1] was a power that was used by highly skilled Force-sensitives to mask their Force alignment (Light or Dark), their ability to use the Force, or even their entire presence from other Force sensitives. (starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_stealth)
.
Whereas, on the other hand, Eldrad’s Runes of Warding would do a good number on hindering Luke’s abilities. The Runes have no distance limit, so long as Eldrad is the target.
I’d just like to mention, due to all the variables that can occur, precog beyond the next few seconds is kind of useless. We’ve seen it fail repeatedly in virtually every fiction which allows it due to how much can be altered. What you need is a precog that shows you every single possible path that the future can take, instantly, and clearly enough that you can decide which path to take. A precog like that is the only time I’ve ever seen long range precog be useful in a battle. Any attempts to say ‘I foresaw you making this strike five minutes ago’ by precogs, where ever you may have seen this, was just bad writing. The character was essentially very, very, very lucky that events proceeded that way. If Eldrad’s precog works that way then it’ll be virtually impossible to win against him. If it doesn’t then the ability probably won’t be useful at all in this fight. Unfortunately the description of his witnessing gear is sort of vague so I can’t really say how close that sounds to what I’ve described. That’s really up to someone who’s read the books. I can’t comment at all on Luke because as far as I’m concerned Star Wars ends after Return of the Jedi and I see we’re using some wonky novel version of him here..
“Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers, all of which are true and terrifying to know.”
Eldar Codex (4th Edition)
Also along with that is the fact that in table top, you can re-deploy an amount of your army before the game starts as if you had foreseen the best possible way to approach battle, in order to win. I’d say that Eldrad’s precog falls under your former description, which would make him impossible to beat. Even his powers compliment that type of precog.
You’d think they’d foresee how to not suck then! Hyuck hyuck hyuck! The quote sounds more useful than the deploying your army thing. Foreseeing that the enemy is bringing armor with only scant infantry support so you should deploy your light attack craft to escort tank-destroyers isn’t really the same thing. Foreseeing every possible thing that they might do at the same time and knowing exactly how to counter that is more akin to what I’m talking about. In the end, it’s difficult to know exactly which path the enemy will take, but knowing which is the best for you is where the advantage comes from. Add in mind reading and things become even easier.. unless you’re facing someone who can mask their own thoughts. Aaaanyways, the quote seems to pretty clearly demonstrate that they understand that events are not fate or destiny but fluid.
Not that I can speak for Eldrad, but I know a few other short-timeframe precog feats for psykers off the top of my head (in fact I’ll only use the one that comes to mind first since its the easiest to find later…)
-
In the novel “A Thousand Sons”, while the Thousand Sons are launching an airborne assault Ahriman directs individual thunderhawks out of the way of AA fire that would have shot them down otherwise.
-
I’ll grab that quote later when there’s time… Moving on..
-
“Foreseeing every possible thing that they might do at the same time and knowing exactly how to counter that is more akin to what I’m talking about.”
-
Keep in mind, if I know something is going to happen but lack the means to counter it, regardless how much I plan or attempt to avoid it it will still defeat me. (Like if I foresaw that in the future Superman were going to punch me, is there really anything I could possibly do about it short of skinning Lex Luthor and using him as a lucky charm to hopefully deflect the blow?)
-
“Aaaanyways, the quote seems to pretty clearly demonstrate that they understand that events are not fate or destiny but fluid.”
-
There are however some things in 40k that are unavoidable (now that’s not to say there is one set outcome, but there is some things set in stone.), like the Horus Heresy for example. There were 2 possible outcomes to the Horus Heresy and events that would follow predicted by… what were they called again? The Cabal or something like that I think (the Eldar were one part of it at least), of the two possible outcomes however, the opposite to the one they ensured would happen resulted. (Well, building on the topic of fate/destiny in 40k, Fateweaver and Tzeentch are Omniscient, so in a way there are set things that happen… But there will never be an end at least, Tzeentch will not allow it, all of his schemes only serve to create more schemes, with no true final endgame as the actual goal.)