Suggested by Negative Zero
For this showdown we have some heavy hitters from their respective franchises. Up first is Ganondorf from the Legend of Zelda franchise going against Sauron from the Lord of the Rings series and Voldemort from the Harry Potter franchise.
Each combatant is allowed all powers and weapons from their series (minus the
entire Triforce).
Who wins?
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“Each combatant is allowed all powers and weapons from their series (minus the
entire Triforce).”
Voldemort cannot die if all powers and weapons are allowed, and when his soul’s been separated from his body he will be able to possess peole, like Quirrell, or snakes. He cannot be seen due to the Hallows. An entire army of Inferi at his command.
Time Turners for going back in time. Ravenclaw’s diadem to enhance intelligence. Gryffindor’s sword, once it is hit by something which can strengthen it, like Basilisk venom, it is absorbed into the sword. And an entire hall of prophecies.
Something tells me Sauron’s ring, Voldemort’s horcruxes and Ganondorf’s immunity to weapons without “Evil’s bane” properties are going to make this match complicated.
That said, I think Sauron would be the first to go. As powerful as he is, like all of Tolkein’s characters, he suffers when it comes to combat feats. With all the flashy magic Voldey and Ganondorf have at their disposal, I don’t see his physical form lasting very long. His powers of corruption also take time to have a sufficient effect, and Voldemort in particular has training in defence against mind infiltration.
Then I think it falls down to Ganondorf’s immortality vs Voldemort’s killing curses.
@ Josh
Good deduction.
Where will this fight take place?
And do you realize Voldy gets an aquaintance? Nagini is a Horcrux, so is Harry.
Where will this fight take place?”
In a neutral arena. Unless specified by the battle scenario, the arena shouldn’t really have any notable effect on the battle.
“Voldemort cannot die if all powers and weapons are allowed, and when his soul’s been separated from his body he will be able to possess people”
Both Ganondorf and Sauron’s souls can survive separated from their bodies (Sauron’s even survives after the ring is destroyed, to some degree). Ganondorf can also possess people.
“ He cannot be seen due to the Hallows. An entire army of Inferi at his command.”
Voldemort never wielded all the Hallows, only the Elder Wand, which was never fully under his command.
As for the Inferi, the battle scenario stated all weapons and powers, not followers and armies. If this were true, both Ganondorf and Sauron would also have a plethora of magical creatures and armies at their disposal. The only beings that are allowed in this battle to assist the combatants are ones that they themselves can create from their own power – such as Ganondorf’s “phantom rider” beings. ”
Same goes for the hall of prophecies.
“Time Turners for going back in time. Ravenclaw’s diadem to enhance intelligence. Gryffindor’s sword, once it is hit by something which can strengthen it, like Basilisk venom, it is absorbed into the sword. ”
Did Voldemort ever use Time Turners or Gryffindor’s sword? The characters only get items they have used in the past, not any that are at hand in their respective universes.
”
“And do you realize Voldy gets an aquaintance? Nagini is a Horcrux, so is Harry.”
I think this would interfere with the outside help rule, as the two are not “items” used by Voldemort, but living beings.
@ Josh
Each combatant is allowed all powers and weapons from their series (minus the
entire Triforce).
Haven’t Ganondorf and Voldemort already got a match?
Why not throw Melkor into the ring rather than Sauron? (Haha..) Although I haven’t read the Silmarillion just yet its my understanding he’s a tad more powerful a dark lord than his liuetenant is. (Although if I had to take a shot in the dark he probably has even less feats to pull from than Sauron I’m guessing.)
@ The Assassin
That has to be decided by admin I think.
Its just a suggestion, its not that important really.
I don’t think its actually legal to have that much magical might in any one particular area at any one particular time.
“Voldemort cannot die if all powers and weapons are allowed,”
Horocruxes don’t count because their not really a power or weapon.
ANYWAY I made this suggestion long before the Voldemort vs Ganondorf match got posted. I don’t no why it’s getting posted NOW. Anyway if Sauron really is the first to go the it just becomes a repeat of Voldemort vs Ganondorf (which Ganondorf is winning by the way). The only thing that was helping Voldey last in that match was his Horocruxes. Without them, Ganondorf just beats him quicker.
Also I’d like to see Ganondorf and Sauron on a team or something.
The problem with Sauron is that most of his powers were never explained and all we new is that he was one of the most powerful Maia, so we can’t actually have a good basis on what he could potentially do. This brings me to my next point, are we using Souron from before the creation of the ring or after it? If it’s the former then i’m not entirely sure he can be killed by either of them as only other Maiar could kill him. With that being said, he may not actually possess the power to kill them at that stage because he grew in power after the creation of the ring.
Wait, so they got all weapons from their series, even if it isn’t their weapon?
If so, then Sauron gets the Ring of course. The Ring allows Sauron to control tremendous armies (and since Hermit gave Voldy an army of Inferi, then Sauron should have his army), it can make him invisible (or send him to a spiritual realm), and if he wants to even invincible. The Ring can allow him to dominate wills. The Rings gives mind reading abilities. Dramborleg (self moving axe that beat 5 Balrogs to death), Belthronding (an ever returning arrow), the warhammer Grond- used by Morgoth which created craters in the ground every time it struck, Morgul blades, Ringil (used by Fingolfin to wound Morgoth). He also gets every other ring of power- giving him healing and protection among many other things. He would also have the Silmarils. Not to mention he is a Maia, and once destroyed an ENTIRE CITY by WAVING HIS HAND.
I’m going with him on this one.
Minus the entire Triforce? Will Ganon at least get access to the Triforce of Power since that is usually his?
“Avada kadavera! Avada kadavera!”
Voldemort’s horcruxes make him almost invincible, of course, so does Saurons ring, but keep in mind that in order to destroy him, Ganondorf and/or Sauron would need to destroy all of his horcruxes, 6 of which are nearly indestructible objects, one of which is a nearly indestructible snake, and the last is a powerful wizard then there’s his army of Demontors, deatheaters, werewolves, and other creatures that would make Sauron’s orcs run in fear, let’s not forget that he gets all of the items from his world, including the deathly hallows
“Why not throw Melkor into the ring rather than Sauron? (Haha..) Although I haven’t read the Silmarillion just yet its my understanding he’s a tad more powerful a dark lord than his liuetenant is. (Although if I had to take a shot in the dark he probably has even less feats to pull from than Sauron I’m guessing.)”
Melkor’s probably a better combat choice than Sauron as he actually has combat feats beyond the one bit during the Last Alliance of Men and Elves. The only thing Sauron has on Melkor was that his corruption-like powers were said to be far beyond Melkor’s while he had the ring. Still, I don’t think either of them would be able to finish off Ganondorf and Voldemort short of some sort of obscure and ill-defined power.
“Voldemort’s horcruxes make him almost invincible, of course”
Simply destroying Voldemort’s physical form is enough to defeat him in this battle, as he requires outside help to regain a new body and is relatively harmless to the other combatants in his spirit form. Same goes for Sauron and Ganondorf, who both need a lot of time to get a new body once their current one is destroyed.
“Then there’s his army of Demontors, deatheaters, werewolves, and other creatures that would make Sauron’s orcs run in fear”
-The scenario does not say the three have their armies or followers, only weapons and powers.
-You’re forgetting Sauron’s Nazgul wraiths, Oliphaunts and Trolls. At the height of his power as Morgoth’s lieutenant, he arguably had balrogs, dragons, vampires and other such beings under his power.
I’m rooting for Sauron. He’s a skilled combatant as well as an adept mage. But Voldemort will be a problem.
I’m rooting for Sauron. He’s a skilled combatant as well as an adept mage. But Voldemort will be a problem.
Someone tell me more about Ganondorf, please.
Oh. Well if the destruction of Voldemort’s physical form is all that’s required for this match, then Sauron could take him out easily.
Okay, between Sauron and Ganondorf, just a regular duel between them would be difficult to determine. Both are adept sorcerers and swordmen, and both are immortal (for all intents and purposes). However, Sauron’s army of Nazguls, Orcs, Trolls, Oliphaunts, and other such mystical creatures could be a problem for Ganon.
Eventually, I do believe Sauron could beat him.
I’m gonna put my money on Sauron as well. Also if this is before the creation of the ring, he gets this pretty easily seeing as the only mortal weakness he had was when he owned the ring.
Are we taking away Ganondorf’s immunity to all weapons but the Master Sword for this match? Because if not, then this fight becomes ridiculously lopsided and complicated.
@EvilMuNki
But with it, he has control over all the other Rings of Power, and thusly control over the ones who wear those rings. So he has a ridiculously large army at his command.
What exactly can the One Ring do besides control the other rings? And what exactly can Sauron do? I know he can emit blasts of invisible force, as seen in…one of the Lord of the Rings movies…
@The Geek Lord
I’m not aware if it gives him any other abilities, but I do know that it elevates his magic and strength to amazing ends. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, most of Sauron’s capabilities are not explained although I am pretty sure he’s capable of facing a Valar. The only reason He is more vulnerable after the ring was created is because he put most of himself into the ring, thus creating a major flaw in his defense.
Never the less, he would be insanely powerful with the ring and probably could defeat them it’s just that before the creation of the ring, it was allot harder to kill him.
So I was reading Factpile’s rules, and I stumbled upon this, which pertains particularly well to the combatants at hand:
“7. Achieving Victory
Unless specified otherwise by the scenario, all battles are fought to the death, and all plot shields (see rule number “8″) that would prevent combatants to fight this way are lifted or ignored.
Certain combatants may or may not have inherent restrictions or other unique conditions for their demise. Examples of this are Superman’s weakness to Kryptonite, and Sauron’s Ring of Power being unmade only by the elements that made it (Mount Doom). In these situations, certain elements may be compatible with similar items from other franchises/universes. However, said exclusive elements will be made available in the neutral arena. See rules number “9″ and “10″ for details regarding No Limit elements and compatibility between these.”
So something with Evil’s Bane, something with the ability to destroy horcruxes, and something with the ability to destroy the ring are all there.
“the only mortal weakness he had was when he owned the ring.”
In the canon of the books, Sauron’s body was not destroyed in the war against the last alliance simply because the ring was cut from his finger, he was actually beaten in combat by Elendil, Isildur’s father and Gil-galad, an elven king. Isildur then cut the ring from the fallen Sauron.
Ganondorf is far more powerful in combat than either of these two, thanks to his ridiculous magical abilities. He could easily destroy Sauron’s body in combat, whereas Sauron does not have any weapons capable of harming Ganondorf, who has been stabbed in the heart and the face by different weapons specifically designed to kill him, and lived on.
@Aelfinn
If Sauron had the ring all that would be needed to defeat him in this scenario is to separate him from the ring. In that case that would already be possible for them to do although difficult, and in my opinion unlikely. However if this is before the ring is created the only beings that can kill him are Maiar. So this leaves the question who out of Ganondorf and Voldemort seem like the equivalent of Maiar?
So from what I gather the rules state no outside help unless specified other wise and so far there armies of shit aren’t with any of them, and the horocruxes are technically destroyed, that even if they wren’t being put in a state of “harmlessness” counts as defeat, and in this case if any of there physical selves are destroyed they lose this match. Correct?
further more the way I look at this match is that it’s Sauron vs Ganon and Voldy in 2 different matches but if it’s a 3 way then as far as I can see Avada Kadavra is useless to any Ganon as for Sauron, if his soul has a specific means of destruction then it won’t work on him, Ganon is immune to it because the only thing that can kill him are Evil bane weapons and magic and as far as I know none of voldys spells fit that description nor does anything Sauron has but we’ll get to that later.
All in all I’m going to go with Ganon here due to how picky his death must be to actually kill him how ever sealing him would work but I don’t think Voldy or Sauron have any of that so Ganon will most likely be the victor in this match.
“Will Ganon at least get access to the Triforce of Power since that is usually his?”
Yeah.
To be honest all the debating I’ve done so far in Voldemort vs Ganondorf has made it really hard for me to have any interest in this match since it’s mostly a repeat of that.
Most everything else could be picked up from the Ganondorf vs Sauron debate, probably.
@OA
Ganondorf vs Voldemort you mean, right?
No, but it appears that I am mistaken regardless. I had thought we had a Ganondorf Vs Sauron match on Factpile. I must have been thinking of the Link vs Sauron match instead, and thinking that it was Ganondorf instead of Link. Oops.
Disregard post 30.
U’m guys just to clarify Ganon does get the triforce of power seeing how it’s not “the entire triforce”, which it states back at the top that Each combatant is allowed all powers and weapons from their series (minus the entire Triforce). key word “ENTIRE” triforce.
jamesisawesome
“Avada kadavera! Avada kadavera!”
That spell lacks any “evil bane” properties,and is implied to be evil itself, so no go on it killing Ganondorf.
As for its effects on Sauron I point you to page 364 of the Silmarillion.On that page it describes Narsil(the sword that cut off the ring) and on that page it says “and the sword of Elendil filled Orcs and Men with fear, for it shone with the light of the sun and of the moon,and it was named Narsil”,it was also forged by Telchar who made Angrist,which cut the Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth, this implies it is no ordinary sword.This coupled with Sauron’s implied power and the fact that his mightiest servant was nearly unkillable implies that Sauron has a similiar resistance as Gannondorf, and therefore it would require a similar “evil bane” property.
As for combat feets there is one istance of him singing a man to death, besides that i couldn’t find any combat feets beyond shapeshifting during his battle with Huan where” he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world”, however he lost that battle.He did take down three of Middle-Earth’s mightiest warriors at one time, but it weakened him enough to allow Isildur to cut off the ring.When Sauron is defeated by Huan,Hound of the Valor, he escapes his body and immediatly transforms himself into a Vampire,so it is only after the seperation from the ring that he needs time to reform.Along the same vein Ganondorf created a new body after he was dispelled from Zelda’s and his beast form destroyed.
As for the Horcruxes,one was destroyed by a curse from Crabbe/Goyle, in the face of two extremely powerful sorcerers, one of which is merely implied, it is unlikely it would stand up against the might of Melkor’s Lieutenant, even if he is merely implied to be powerful, and The Demon King Ganondorf, who is also gifted with the power of the Hylian godesses.
I think Voldemort is going down first.His spells are flashy however inefficient in this case.The forbidden curses won’t do anything of value, if I am correct about Sauron’s resistance, and the rest of HP combat spells are mostly stunning spells.He also lacks any weapon that could scratch Ganondorf or Sauron, again if I am correct.Also Ganondorf has been turned into a spirit and defeated Midna while she was using the full power of the Fused Shadows, this could mean he could launch an attack on Voldemort’s soul directly, should his body be destroyed.
@muNKi
Ah. Thanks for clearing that up.
@The Geek Lord
Don’t mention it
right. aelfinn helpfully quoted some of the rules earlier, which has mostly been ignored. im’a requote what i feel is the most important part:
“Unless specified otherwise by the scenario, all battles are fought to the death, and all plot shields (see rule number “8″) that would prevent combatants to fight this way are lifted or ignored.”
that means, my friends, that all three combatants are capable of being destroyed. voldemorts, saurons and ganon’s various immunities are ignored, as are the things that provide them in those terms. for example, IF saurons ring imparted indestructability upon him (it doesnt, wont and never did) in addition to its other properties, then that particular property would be ignored, but not the rest. thusly, if ganon’sevil bane thing imparts other things upon him than simple immunity, then those remain in place yet the immunity does not. same for voldemort.
is that a fair interpretation of the rule? because none of them can be eternally destroyed. sauron and ganon because its not how they work, voldemort because his horcruxes arent even involved in the battle.
Their immunities are not ignored, there’s just something provided capable of circumventing them. So, an ‘Evil’s bane’ weapon is present on the battlefield, something capable of destroying the Ring is present, and something capable of destroying a Horcrux is also present.
@ everyone: isn’t it possible for the item capable of destroying the Ring to be the same as the item capable of detroying a Horcrux? or the item with Evil’s Bane (for eg the Master Sword, the Bow of Light etc.) to be able to destroy a Horcrux, as Horcruxes are objects created using extremely dark magic? just thinking that therefore, there only needs to be two ultra-powerful artifacts in the battle/duel area, or even one, seeing as you can’t really count Mt. Doom as an “item”. therefore, after the Horcruxes and the Ring are destroyed, it might realy be a race between Sauron and Voldemort to see who gets to the Master Sword/Bow of Light/Other-Evil’s-Bane-induced-Item first, and deals the killing blow to Ganondorf. Then it will be a fight to the death between Sauron and Voldy…
En Taro Adun. I leave to lead the charge for Aiur.
ok.
so all the “hurr durr ganon cant die coz evilbanezorz” up there is irrelevant? same for any commentary about the ring and horcruxes?
so. how ’bout feats for the three?
we know voldemort can fly, teleport short distances, and has an extensive magical repertoire up to and including the ability to instakill mortals, and transmute objects rapidly and easily.
ganon, i know nothing about, but the wiki article on him implies all this plus super strength and shape shifting.
sauron (the one i know best), as a maiar of aule, and given the particular area of expertise that entails, could probably be described as a sort of geomancer-his magical abilities can govern stone, earth, lava and to a degree the weather. he is also adept at glamours/illusions, and a very capable shapeshifter-he changes form many times in rapid succession whilst battling huan, luthien and beren (though it does him no good). despite this he cannot take a “fair” form anymore, due to eru’s intervention in the fall of numenor. his alias of “the necromancer” implies much but says little, so i’ll leave that be. he is also an accomplished fighter (it takes prophecy’s and/or a group of the mightiest elves and men ganging up on him to defeat him in hand to hand combat).
despite all of that-i dont particularly think sauron comes out of this the winner. i think he can defeat voldemort, though because of the way HP magic works it would be a hard thing. avada kadavra, i think, would not work on him, primarily because of the way it kills its target, which, as i understand it, is to seperate the soul from the body irrevocably. the only recorded instance of saurons “deaths” involves his body being killed which causes him to choose to leave it. he only departs it once it can no longer be used by him. this is because for maiar body’s are effectively clothing. they can put them on, take them off, and so forth. as such the body needs to be made useless before sauron can be defeated. i think voldemort is probably capable of this, but not before sauron “kills” him.
from what i have seen about ganon on this website, i am under the impression that where it matters ganon has the advantage. but i’d like someone with decent knowledge of the zeldaverse to provide feats and such, for my own peace of mind (i am not going to play lord knows how many games to figure the guy out!)
As much of a zelda fan i am, i’m just that – a fan, not a fanboy. i haven’t played all of the zelda games, and only one oof the one’s i finnishe actually had Ganondorf in it (well, ganon to be precise). I probably know as much (if not less) than you about Sauron, and i haven’t read a tolkien book in quite a while. and in the case of voldemort, shouldn’t he get the sword of gryfindor? the match description does say all weapons from their world (excluding the whole triforce).
my previous comment wasnt in direct response to you, and my comment on the ganon-fanboyism was directed at you either, so dont worry
i simply require that someone explain what kind of overall power ganon actually has, as i dont have the time to figure it all out myself.
i dont think voldy gets the sword, because i dont think the match description means that. ofcourse i could be wrong, but if i am then this is a really, really dumb match. this is because ganon, sauron and voldemort would all have access to powers and abilities in direct opposition to their own. hell sauron would in fact be able to use the flame imperishable, which is an ability which in universe is solely the remit of eru illuvatar (i.e God). he would have the ability to create dragons of vast power (something morgoth did often enough), he would be able to raise mountains (aule) and create entire species of animals and plants (yavanna, amongst others). he would have absolute power over the air, land and sea (manwe, ulmo, and aule), would be able to make stars (elbereth-cannot remember her actual name atm, but one of her epiphets is elbereth)
so yeah. that is a real long winded way of me saying that in my opinion they should have access to what they had access to, not everything that exists.
is it elbereth gilthoniel (or some other name starting with “gil”)? i can’t remember, for some reason…
thnx for the re-assurance, andrew.
yep, its gilthoniel (but thats her name in sindarin, her real name is Valda, and i think that she is the wife of Manwe, am i right?).
oops :p , that should be “Varda” not “Valda”
JUST TO CLARIFY WE ARE USING A COMPOSITE GANONDORF, CORRECT?
WHOA WHOA WHOA, Back up everyone, damn near invincibility is their power, not plot shielding.As for the circumventing item, that is only available if such weapons are within their respective universe, unless suddenly everyone who fights Superman now gets Kryptonite as that is what you are implying should occur.This is a nuetral battle field inserting an element that the fighters do not possess in an attempt to “even the playing field” is breaking the rules.The Sword of Gryffindor is capable of destroying Horcruxes do to the properties of Basilisk Venom,which is not described with any “holy” attributes.The “evil’s bane” is a sort of suped up “holy” element.Regular “holy” attacks and weapons are incapable of killing Ganondorf as proven when the Light Arrows,which are forged from the light of the 4 light spirits, are merely capable of temporarily stunning Ganondorf,the Master Sword is explicitly stated to possess “evil’s bane” properties.Also remember all most every ”evil’s bane” weapon needs someone of a pure heart to wield it.
@Andrew
Did no one read my previous post I mentioned his fight with Huan.I also mentioned the fact that Ganondorf and Sauron should be fully capable of destroying the Horcruxes, given that Crabbe/Goyle’s fire curse was capable of destroying one and they weren’t anything special in terms of wizarding ability.As for feats…
Ganondorf is a master swordfighter,mage,tactician,and politician, and this is all before he recieves The Triforce of Power.Afterwords he now has his powers enhanced greatly.He destroyed Great Fish Island (albeit we don’t get to see how or what it looked like before), he curb stomped Midna after she whent One Winged Angel with the Fused Shadows, which contained the power of the Dark Ones who waged a war against the Gods (with obvious results),Is able to break out of the banishing spell used upon him by the 7 sages in a relatively small amount of time,he wields the evil equivalent of the Master Sword,he now has Twilight Magic which has been shown to move a massive bridge across Hylia;corrupted countless numbers;broken chains of an unknown metal,he is strong enough to block blows from Twilight Princess Link;who carried a large iron ball,could lift rather sizeable rocks,and move massive gorons, dodge and deflect arrows fired from TP Link.I will list more if we need more specific ones.
As for powers he has demonstrated invisibility,magical ball thingies, teleportation,intangibility,summoning flaming keeses,summoning phantom copies of himself which range from mini-boss to mook status,teleportation of objects,magical walls and barriers; one of which contained an entire castle,fireballs and lightning balls, Zant;being bolstered by Ganon; altered the battlefield immensly to copy other boss battles; and bitch slapping a Light Spirit,possession,and shape-shifting.
“JUST TO CLARIFY WE ARE USING A COMPOSITE GANONDORF, CORRECT?”
We’re using a composite EVERYBODY (minus Ganondorf’s entire Triforce).
@ Herr_Parivir_Obscuri (HPR?): i seriously thought that the bow of light had Evil’s Bane (which means i’m wrong), and clean forgot that the Master Sword needed someone of pure heart to wield it (foiled, once again). Also, while the Master Sword is specifically made to kill Ganondorf, it must be remembered that link has killed ganondorf (or ganon) with other weapons (usually swords though, just not the Master Sword).
@Ratboy400x
They are suspisciously similar substitutes to the Master Sword and Link once(twice) used silver arrows blessed by an uber powerful fairy (I am pretty sure she was the guardian of the Triforce) and im not sure about the first games silver arrows,wjic is why I left it out as it was contradicted by later canon.
The loser of this fight is determined by who gets to be double-teamed first.
yeah, its varda ratboy. now ive had some sleep the name came easier to me
i did infact read read your post, Herr_Parivir_Obscuri, its just that some things need re-iterating every now and then
the fight with huan doesnt particularly show sauron at his best because effectively the whole of existence decree’s that he cannot defeat huan (only carcaroth can do that), but it does, as you state, show him to be an exceptional shapeshifter. in addition, i wouldnt go so far as to say sauron has some kind of “evil bane” requirement himself. the witch king proved hard to kill not because of his might or imperviousness to his enemies powers, but because fate had decreed no “man” could kill him. on several occasions he was on the battlefield and defeated by enemies who were well capable of cutting him down-glorfindel, elrond, gandalf, aragorn and earnur are all examples. it is simply that prophecy (and therefor the mechanics of fate itself) meant that it had to be someone who wasnt male and human who did it.
sauron himself, as you point out, is an execptionally tough being, and required the combined efforts of several of the mightiest beings on the side of good to be defeated in the battle of the last alliance. but that is all i am willing to take it as; exceptional toughness and strength in arms.
and since the versus creator has stated we are using composite (i.e. that they possess all the powers they ever posessed combined?) everyone, then the limiters placed upon sauron by the ring (i.e. that its destruction necessarily causes his defeat) doesnt technically apply, because he will still have some power native to him-his shape shifting and song-spells remain in place, as if he had never been caught up in the destruction of numenor, in addition to the powers of his ringed self. would this be a fair assessment?
I think it would be a fair assesment, andrew, but does that mean that he still can’t be beaten by any man? ’cause then ganondorf and voldemort have no chance… well, unless zelda or samus decide to drop in (and i know that is considered outside help, i’m just saying that it might be the only way sauron could be beaten in this match).
no, it doesnt. i was pointing out that the primary reason for the witch kings implied strength is that there was a prophecy in place decreeing he suffer a specific fate, and as such the witch kings invulnerability, which is the result of that prophecy, and not his allegiance to sauron (though said allegiance makes the WK a very powerful adversary). this means that invulnerability can not inform on our understanding of saurons strengths and weaknesses.
basically, the fact of the witch kings “invincibility” is nothing to do with sauron, and therefor we cannot say anything about sauron based upon it.
“but does that mean that he still can’t be beaten by any man?”
First of all, wrong character. That prophecy refered to the Witch King; not Sauron.
Second, no. A man COULD kill him, but the prophecy saw that the way the future would play out that it would be a woman that WOULD kill him.
Thnx OriginalA. i get that it was the wrong Character (i really need to read these over…) and i meant that he would not die to Voldemort/ Ganondorf because the prophecy decreed otherwise (i did say “can’t” but where i am, while it isn’t proper, we use them (can/would) interchangeably unless both are used in one sentence).
I knew what you meant.
would/could, can/may, ect I can understand. I mix them up myself, usually in favor of “can”. In this specific case, it is important to understand the difference, and see that the proper term is used. The woman that killed the Witch King (and her name escapes me right now) was simply at the right place at the right time. Being a woman had nothing to do with her ability to kill him. The prophecy saw that it was a woman that was in the right place at the right time to kill the Witch King and relayed that information.
Similiarly, if I made a prediction (and let’s assume it is 100% accurate) that I would die of old age, that does not mean that a bullet is incapable of killing me. It merely means that the cause of my death is old age. If I shot myself in the head I would die, but I wouldn’t shoot myself so that doesn’t cause my death. The vulnerability exists, but the opportunity to exploit it is seen to not occur. Then throw in a completely new reality that is outside our own, and by extension any possibility any prediction could have allowed for it, and all bets are off.
Is this match getting anywhere near a conclusive decision?
@OriginalA
….You lost me there.
@Veteran OriginalA
It was Eowyn of Rohan that was her name, actually, if i recall correctly(but she may or may not have had aid from either Merry or Pippin, in the act of killing the Witch King, himself!) and that was after her father died at the Witch King’s hands.
@ Geek Lord.
Nope. And I lost you because I’m driving this match further and further off track. I really have got to stop that.
***
Thanks C.C.
On topic, to get the ball rolling again:
What is stopping Ganondorf from dropping several hundreds of tons of rock on his enemies? Because his magic allows him to do that as seen by his floating castle in OoT.
“What is stopping Ganondorf from dropping several hundreds of tons of rock on his enemies? Because his magic allows him to do that as seen by his floating castle in OoT.”
nothing, if he has used that ability as a weapon. it is possible it requires time to effect a levitation spell of such scale, which he might not have in combat. does he exhibit the ability to lift such large amounts in a combat situation? if so then he wins this, as neither voldemort nor sauron have such feats.
@Veteran OriginalA
For now, its the least i can do until someone posts up Percy Jackson vs WindWaker Link, sir. *tips the normal and un-enchanted helmet to you*
So meantime-wise, what do all 3 sides have in the way of armies?
No idea about cast time for that. Good call. Let’s strike that as Not Usable and move on.
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Why would they have their armies? Outside Help, man.
@Veteran OriginalA
*pulls out a Storm-Bolter-esque Pie gun and aims for the self in failure*
I shot myself in the foot, yet again!
I thought i have control on this regard.
So this is pure mono-a-mono-a-mono, then.
Why didn’t i pay more attention to the thing?
@Commander Cross
What’s up with the veteran stuff?
Protocol, the regards that both of you fought in the 40K vs the Big N Wars, and you two been fighting and debating longer than i have.
Add to the mix that i was raised in the military, and…yeah, those are the biggest reasons.
OK then.
@ Commander: Percy Jackson vs Windwaker Link… that has to come up. if it doesn’t, then i vote we spam admin until it does…
@ admin: jk. please don’t take me seriously.
dang this is tough. gut feeling says voldemort but for sheer awesomeness i want ganondorf or sauron. what to do what to do. oh well, SAURON!!
to hell with all three of them! FOR AIUR!
For Ze EMPRAH!!!
wait… Go Sauron!
I really don’t know enough about any of these characters to make an informed decision, but I personally think Sauron had a larger influence. Voldemort is just a creepy looking guy with no nose and some little fireballs. These Horcrux things never made any sense to me anyway. Ganondorf looks pretty tough i guess but I still think Sauron wins the Badassery award
Unless Voldys allowed Horcruxes, I don’t see him lasting long against Ganon or Sauron. From there, it gets interesting… I’d have to go with Sauron on this one.
@Xeno Dimentio
He gets them,they are just a non-factor in this fight considering his opponents are strong sorcerors.Considering Crabbe/Goyle destroyed one with a curse it is highly likely Ganondorf and Sauron are capable of doing so.
(Forgive me if I appear ignorant in this post, mainly because I don’t know much about Ganondorf from the Zelda games and Sauron from Lord of the Rings) Ahhh this should be interesting… Sadly I think Sauron will also the first to go. The only good guy of the trio, he suffers from lack of close combat ability (compared to the others. What with Ganon’s power to turn into a huge beast, and Tom’s ability to fire auto killing spells, but if those spells can’t really do much against Ganon and Sauron, then Tom here is the most frail of them then….) and he (to me at least) seemed to be more of the leader/brains of all those Orcs. Of course since Mr.Riddle does have all of those Horcruxes (Made from the founders of Hogwartz heirlooms no less!), he does get to return back from the dead unless Sauron and Ganon gets rid of those. But I am curious. Will Voldemort’s auto-kill spell work on Ganon and Sauron? If they are able to shrug them off, then Voldy is most likely screwed. If that’s the case, then Tom is screwed completely, forced to return again and again getting curbstomped.
Wait a minute would Super Smash Bros. Ganon be included in Ganon’s arsenal?
@Fatazn
Sauron a good guy?
As for combat ability he took down three of Middle Earth’s best warriors and was only defeated after getting hit by a (presumably)magic sword shard.He also fought Huan,Hound of the Valoren, although he lost eve after turning into a werewolf of “unseen power” and turned into a vampire after losing.He also killed someone by singing, makes sense in context sort of, them to death.
from the wiki (cus I am feeling to lazy to flip through ever page of th Slmarillion)
“The extent, nature, and specifics of Sauron’s power are largely left to the imagination. Like his master Morgoth, he is capable of altering the physical substance of the world around him by mere effort of will (albeit to a far lesser extent). He is also able to extend the natural life span of beings to almost infinite ends, the most prominent example being the Nazgûl, who were over three thousand years old by the time of the War of the Ring. This gives some legitimacy to his title “The Necromancer” used in “The Hobbit,” although Tolkien retroactively applied to Sauron, and probably meant it more in the context of “Dark Sorcerer.”
The wiki also claims he is connected to fire
“He apparently gave off great heat, so much so that Gil-Galad was burned to death by his mere touch, and Isildur described Sauron’s hand as black, yet burning like fire, suggesting that his entire body was blackened from fire and heat. ”
As for the Killing Curse, Ganondorf atleast requires a weapon with an evil’s bane attibute, as for Sauron I suggested that he requires a holy element weapon.As Voldemort lacks any weapons with such capabilities he would most likely be incapable of killing them.
As for the Horcruxes I suggested that as both Sauron and Ganondorf are extremely powerful sorcerors and Crabbe/Goyle destroyed a Horcrux it is likely that both Sauron and Ganondorf would be able to destroy them with little trouble.
Then I suppose poor old mudblood Tom is gonna be the first to get killed? With lack of any close or far range combat powers, this looks quite bad for him.
@ Herr:
From the movies I never saw Sauron as the bad guy mainly due to the lack of explaining why he’s waging war. Then again, it’s been months since I’ve last seen any of the films.
“He gets them,they are just a non-factor in this fight considering his opponents are strong.”
No, in my first post I barred the Hrocruxes.
“Wait a minute would Super Smash Bros. Ganon be included in Ganon’s arsenal?”
No, besides SSBB Ganondorf’s Final Smash is his beast form from Twilight Princess anyway.
@Fatazn
Well yeah it was the movies that left everything out and it was explained in the Silmarillion.More or less he is like Lucifer except instead of being the Big Bad he was corrupted by Melkor.
@NZ
I was thinking he could pull out Dragoon and doing some massive damage…
Well the Horcruxes were pretty useless anyway.Aside from my suggestion that both Sauron and Ganondorf could easily destroy them,Voldemort needs someone to restore him and I doubt that his opponenants would do that.
Umm, calling all zelda experts…any idea or tidbit that might insinuate that Ganon’s triforce packs enough punch to destroy the ROP? If so, this fight boils down to Ganon as sole victor.
“Wait a minute would Super Smash Bros. Ganon be included in Ganon’s arsenal?”
No, besides SSBB Ganondorf’s Final Smash is his beast form from Twilight Princess anyway.”
That, and that SSBB Ganon is WEAK SAUCE compared to any one of Ganon’s incarnations, let alone a composite Ganon. Giving him his SSBB incarnation as well pretty much just dumbs him down, if anything.
Have you read LOTR? If Voldemort gets his Inferni, Sauron gets all his orcs, Uruk-hai, trolls, and Saruman. Besides, you’re acting as if Sauron has no magic. This is to Hermit.
I just realized that even if Sauron doesn’t have his army, the Nazgul can’t be separated from him, they basically depend on him for existence, their souls belong to him via the rings.
So who’s winning, so far?
Voldemort definitely goes almost instantly. However, I know nothing about Ganondorf but I do know that Sauron is an immensely powerful sorcerer and a great swordsmen. BTW, the only waySauron was ever beaten was by an unkillable person due to prophecy or by someone decreed to beat him by prophecy.
Yeah Voldemort goes first, it might as well be Ganondorf vs Sauron which would be an epic battle
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Im leaning toward Sauron
Voldemort and death curses and Sauron can’t regen on the spot as far as I know from his matches here.
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I think Ganondorf will take this in time.
“I think Ganondorf will take this in time.”
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Im pretty sure the ‘immune to anything not evils-bane’ is a NLF and his regen involved him returning from the grave which is like Saurons ‘regen’
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Meh, both Ganon and Sauron require time to return from the grave so if they die once, they’re out
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But yeah i can see either Ganondorf or Sauron winning this one
“Im pretty sure the ‘immune to anything not evils-bane’ is a NLF and his regen involved him returning from the grave which is like Saurons ‘regen’”
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No, Ganondorf can only be killed by holy/divine weapons and soul fuckery. He can be damaged by normal weapons but his huge regen makes it minuscule. Sauron is capable of being destroyed physically as stated above and his corruption and return take some time for him to return and Ganondorf is more than capable of destroying him before steamrolling Voldemort, who also has magic that can obliterate Sauron.
“No, Ganondorf can only be killed by holy/divine weapons and soul fuckery. He can be damaged by normal weapons but his huge regen makes it minuscule”
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Sauron is also impervious to mortal weapons, but im unsure of his durability, but i think there was a Sauron respect thread on SDN
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“Sauron is capable of being destroyed physically as stated above and his corruption and return take some time for him to return”
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In his fight with Huan he escaped his body and transformed into a vampire
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” who also has magic that can obliterate Sauron.”
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Sauron also has magic too and massive telekinesis/telepathy, etc
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Its hard debating for someone whos lacking feats rly, thus i feel im in an akward position
“Sauron is also impervious to mortal weapons, but im unsure of his durability, but i think there was a Sauron respect thread on SDN”
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Sauron was said to be unable to be killed by mortal weapons but he can still be physically destroyed. I believe it was said on Sauron vs Alucard.
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“In his fight with Huan he escaped his body and transformed into a vampire”
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And if he was to do this again, would that bear any relevance against Ganon or Voldemort?
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“Sauron also has magic too and massive telekinesis/telepathy, etc”
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Big G has those as well but can tank Sauron’s just fine.
“Sauron was said to be unable to be killed by mortal weapons but he can still be physically destroyed. I believe it was said on Sauron vs Alucard.”
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Never said otherwise that he could be, put he can be destroyed via the ‘cut off ring finger’ thing, other than that hes pretty much invulnerable
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“And if he was to do this again, would that bear any relevance against Ganon or Voldemort?”
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Go into a new body and keep on coming at them (no it does not involve leaving the battlefield)
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“Big G has those as well but can tank Sauron’s just fine.”
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If we’re to do the ‘only evil’s bane can kill Ganon’, then Anduril (the blade that destroyed Sauron’s physical form) was forged from the divine light of the Silmarils
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Ugh, only real problem is lacking feats in abundance here, either way Voldemort is the first to go here
“Never said otherwise that he could be, put he can be destroyed via the ‘cut off ring finger’ thing, other than that hes pretty much invulnerable”
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If Ganondorf beats him into nothingness over and over again, he’s bound to destroy the ring finger sooner or later. He’s quasi immortal, not invulnerable.
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“Go into a new body and keep on coming at them (no it does not involve leaving the battlefield)”
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Unless Sauron can create a body on the spot, it’s a loss.
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“If we’re to do the ‘only evil’s bane can kill Ganon’, then Anduril (the blade that destroyed Sauron’s physical form) was forged from the divine light of the Silmarils”
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Does Sauron possess this blade?
“If Ganondorf beats him into nothingness over and over again, he’s bound to destroy the ring finger sooner or later. He’s quasi immortal, not invulnerable.”
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I don’t think it would be like Wolverine vs Ridley as both have massive magical powers and i know hes not totally invulnerable, at least he would be to conventional attacks anyways
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“Unless Sauron can create a body on the spot, it’s a loss.”
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I think he did something like this in his battle with Huan
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“Does Sauron possess this blade?”
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No, but that wasn’t the point, the point is that it also required such a weapon to defeat Sauron therefore this ‘evils bane weakness’ wouldn’t be unique to Ganondorf
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Meh, this might as well have been Ganondorf vs Sauron seeing as Voldemorts not really much of a factor here
“I don’t think it would be like Wolverine vs Ridley as both have massive magical powers and i know hes not totally invulnerable, at least he would be to conventional attacks anyways”
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Ganondorf’s magic should make up the difference if Sauron’s immune to most conventional damage.
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“I think he did something like this in his battle with Huan”
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If you can acquire quotes, that’d help. I know you said there’s barely any quotes to support Sauron in terms of feats so no rush or anything.
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“No, but that wasn’t the point, the point is that it also required such a weapon to defeat Sauron therefore this ‘evils bane weakness’ wouldn’t be unique to Ganondorf”
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That sounds contradicting to what’s been said about just separating him from the One Ring throughout the site though. Which is true?
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As for Voldemort, there’s not much to be said since Ganondorf beat him already so there’s not much to really say because of that.
“Ganondorf’s magic should make up the difference if Sauron’s immune to most conventional damage.”
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Heh, pity as most of the LOTR video games (BFME, Conquest, etc) had several powers for Sauron, pity the games are likely considered a lower canon here and not used
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“If you can acquire quotes, that’d help. I know you said there’s barely any quotes to support Sauron in terms of feats so no rush or anything.”
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I found something somewhere, and ditto my above sentence
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“That sounds contradicting to what’s been said about just separating him from the One Ring throughout the site though. Which is true?”
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The ‘Anduril is an evils bane weapons’ was brought up here in this thread and given Anduril was forged with a gem of the Silmarils, its a weapon of ‘evil’s bane’ and it seperated the One Ring from Sauron and, yeah
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“As for Voldemort, there’s not much to be said since Ganondorf beat him already so there’s not much to really say because of that”
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Sauron would sodomise Voldemort too so putting Voldemort in here was redundant
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And given ‘Voldemort vs Ganondorf was a spite thread against Ganondorf that Ganon still won despite Voldemort having every advantage possible, Voldemort only dies quicker without all the advantages given to him there and, yeah
sauron is not actually destroyed by having the ring removed from him-in canon (i.e. NOT THE MOVIES-yeah, i am a purist, sue me) his physical form had already been killed when isildur cut the ring from his hand.
as to a quote for the fight with huan…
“and he (huan) took hisd foe (sauron) by the throat and pinned him doiwn…he could not elude the grip of huan without forsaking his body utterly. ere his foul spirit left its dark house, luthien came to him, and said tha he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost sent quaking back to morgoth…”
so sauron is not actually killed in this fight. that said-the description of his body as “raiment” (clothing) is important-here and in HoME it is described as such, and implies that whilst it may not be difficult to create a new body, i does infact take a certain amount of time.
“The ‘Anduril is an evils bane weapons’ was brought up here in this thread and given Anduril was forged with a gem of the Silmarils, its a weapon of ‘evil’s bane’ and it seperated the One Ring from Sauron and, yeah”
where in the name of all that is holy did this come from? one silmaril is in the hands of earendil (a star), the other was cast into the earth by maedhros (specifically magma) and the third into the sea by maglor, and all three are unreachable. so where the hell did this come from?
“where in the name of all that is holy did this come from? one silmaril is in the hands of earendil (a star), the other was cast into the earth by maedhros (specifically magma) and the third into the sea by maglor, and all three are unreachable. so where the hell did this come from?”
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I was said earlier in this thread that it was forged with it or something *shrug*
So how does Gannondorf fare against Time Stopping or Time Slowing, if I can ask?
“So how does Gannondorf fare against Time Stopping or Time Slowing, if I can ask?”
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Who has that here?
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And i don’t recall any resistances