Suggested by Rorschach
Arriving from the Legend of Zelda franchise is Gannondorf facing off against the God of War, Kratos.
Ganondorf has the Triforce while Kratos has all of his weapons, armor, and abilities from all games.
With all the power these two are known for, who do you see killing the other, and winning?
Then Kharn came.
But seriously
With all the power radiating from these two, I feel I have no choice but to
pause and stand in awe…actually I have nothing to say since I don’t know these
two very well.
Not knowing the extent of Ganondorf’s power when he has the full Triforce (if that’s what the stipulations in fact imply), I’ll throw in my lot with Kratos simply because of the Claws of Hades. Wings of Icarus or Boots of Hermes to get in close, defending with the Golden Fleece, then out with the soul and all that.
I am not to sure on this one. But I am going with Gannondorf for now.
Lots of factors to consider here, should make for an interesting battle.
@Zazax
Not sure about the Claws of Hades, as Ganondorf appears to have full control of his soul outside of his body, and Kratos may even be leaving himself up for possession.
wow this is one of the better matches I’ve seen so far…if it wasn’t for the first guy it would be entirely void of 40K
if I remember correctly ganondorf is only killed by “holy things”
now are “holy things” just the master sword or can they be from any religion
@lancer_AR
We generally except that Ganondorf can be harmed by any weapons with “light” or “holy” elements.
With that being the case, the Blade of Olympus seems the easiest way for Kratos to end this match.
I’d like some more info on Ganondorf’s range of powers with the full triforce. I know his wicked heart caused the triforce to create an alternate dimension – “the dark world”, but I’m not sure when it comes to more general powers and combat feats.
What incarnation of Ganondorf is this in the fight? Also, is it just his typical Triforce of Power or the entire Triforce?
Overall, I’m backing Kratos on this for exceeding Ganondorf in just about every category save durability (arguable) due to his immortality and massive regeneration if it’s Twilight Princess Ganondorf.
If Kratos can’t destroy Ganon through the Claws of Hades or Blade of Olympus though, this match can go on for a very, very long time…
P.S I suggested this match-up a few times also.
Ganondorf with 2 N’s people!!!
Also if he’s given the entire Triforce like the battle description suggests then Ganondorf auto wins due to having an omnipotent wish granting artifact.
In fact Kratos is fucked even if Ganondorf doesn’t have the entire Triforce because he can only be harmed by weapons with evil’s bane (anything “holy” or “light” won’t cut it if it ain’t got evil’s bane in it).
As for the Claws of Hades, Ganondorf has survived having his soul directly attacked by the full power of the Fused Shadow. It did jack diddly shit to him.
Ganondorf wins this.
I have a feeling of familiarity here… oh, wait, this fight was done on the universe swap, my money is on the one of them with facial hair.
@aklelZ7
They both have facial hair.
“In fact Kratos is fucked even if Ganondorf doesn’t have the entire Triforce because he can only be harmed by weapons with evil’s bane (anything “holy” or “light” won’t cut it if it ain’t got evil’s bane in it).”
I thought it’s been said that weapons of holy or divine nature can end Big G?
“Ganondorf has survived having his soul directly attacked by the full power of the Fused Shadow. It did jack diddly shit to him.”
May I see this along with where it was said/shown that it attacked his soul?
Taking the Tri-Force out of the picture, how is Ganondorf going to lay a finger on Kratos when his reactions are closing in on the relativistic range? Kratos is faster, stronger and more mobile than Ganondorf is by a decent margin….
“my money is on the one of them with facial hair.”
They both have facial hair.
“They both have facial hair.”
Non-committal answer FTW. It’s Kratos, by the way.
“I thought it’s been said that weapons of holy or divine nature can end Big G? ”
This was discussed thoroughly in Soma Cruz vs Ganondorf. It is the Evil’s Bane/Anti-Demon property that hurts Ganondorf. Objects that are “holy” just so happen to often times adversely effect evil things, but it does not necessarily always happen.
The “wards off evil” property is not is not universally implied with the “holy” property, and because of that holy things are equally useless against the Big G unless proven that those “holy” things pimp smack “evil” things. Most of the times they do though hence the generalization.
To those who wish to support a no limits fallacy, let’s look at “evil’s bane.” Evil would be something that is immoral. It cannot be associated with a natural disaster, as that does not have any morals whatsoever. That would make natural disasters non-moral. It cannot be associated with someone’s personal preference, such as the taste of food. One might say, “This tastes bad,” but by “bad,” that person means, “This tastes unpleasant to the senses.”
Ganondorf is supposedly the incarnation or embodiment of evil. He is a demon. The idea of incarnation and the like can be understood figuratively, as evil is an abstract term, and something like “incarnation” simply means “to be made flesh.” In other words, Ganondorf, a physical being, is so evil that one may say he is an incarnation or embodiment, or a representation of evil, much like one can say Link is the incarnation of good.
Bane has to do with something that can be injurious, ruinous, or even fatal. Evil’s bane then may be understood as “evil killer,” or “evil slayer.” One who slays evil. Understanding all of this, the reason why the Master Sword is “evil’s bane” is because it is meant to slay evil. This is rather tautological. I think this expands beyond the scope of simply a weapon meant to slay Ganondorf alone.
If this is the case, and I do not see why not based on what I have established thus far, then anything that is meant to slay evil should work against Ganondorf. Saying that Ganondorf cannot be harmed except by this or that is a no limits fallacy. Check the rules here at FactPile. This not only breaks logic, but it breaks the rules here at FP, and at just about any other site similar to this, such as Outskirt Battledome, The Lounge, &c.
I must go for lunch now, but I will return. We need to come up with a consensus here, but perhaps this would be best discussed at FactPileTopia. (For some reason my account is shut off and I have to make another one all over again.)
“I thought it’s been said that weapons of holy or divine nature can end Big G?”
Nope, it was discovered on the Soma Cruz vs Ganondorf thread that just because something is “holy” or “divine” doesn’t mean evil’s bane.
“May I see this along with where it was said/shown that it attacked his soul?”
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiyuoF9mixI&feature=related
1:07-3:00
“Taking the Tri-Force out of the picture, how is Ganondorf going to lay a finger on Kratos when his reactions are closing in on the relativistic range? Kratos is faster, stronger and more mobile than Ganondorf is by a decent margin….”
So Ganondorf dodging slow lightning=equals real lightning speeds? Besides look and the Superman vs Ganondorf thread to see that it doesn’t matter how fast you are when your opponent is Ganondorf.
“It’s Kratos, by the way.”
Care to explain why?
“Also if he’s given the entire Triforce like the battle description suggests then Ganondorf auto wins due to having an omnipotent wish granting artifact.”
While I still doubt it being truly omnipotent (debate over semantics elsewhere over that) I think it’s more than kratos has ever had given its feats.
“In fact Kratos is fucked even if Ganondorf doesn’t have the entire Triforce because he can only be harmed by weapons with evil’s bane (anything “holy” or “light” won’t cut it if it ain’t got evil’s bane in it).”
He could potentially seal him to end the fight. And Kratos does have the ability to bitchslap Ganon around enough for that.
Still, that’s pushing it.
“Taking the Tri-Force out of the picture, how is Ganondorf going to lay a finger on Kratos when his reactions are closing in on the relativistic range? Kratos is faster, stronger and more mobile than Ganondorf is by a decent margin….”
G’s only real advantage is magic adaptability and teleportation whereas physical prowess easily goes to Kratos.
“This was discussed thoroughly in Soma Cruz vs Ganondorf. It is the Evil’s Bane/Anti-Demon property that hurts Ganondorf. Objects that are “holy” just so happen to often times adversely effect evil things, but it does not necessarily always happen.
The “wards off evil” property is not is not universally implied with the “holy” property, and because of that holy things are equally useless against the Big G unless proven that those “holy” things pimp smack “evil” things. Most of the times they do though hence the generalization.”
Just to make it easier OA DID provide evidece for this previously.
““May I see this along with where it was said/shown that it attacked his soul?”
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiyuoF9mixI&feature=related
1:07-3:00″
Why is Link’s sword over his right shoulder? Also, that doesn’t quite seem to be the same thing…We don’t even know if he landed an attack.
All in all the triforce is too much to give to Ganon and I don’t think it’d be a good idea to give Kratos an Evil’s Bane weapon either. And despite the physical advantages (Hypersonic reaction time even if we disregard the lightning) Ganon does still have a few–and my emphasis a few– advantages.
On that note I REALLY wish that there were usable feats for the characters of Shining Force 2: I’d love to see Bowie Vs Ganon. yes, he does have an Evil’s Bane weapon that is both destructive AND has sealing properties. But has a TBS (turn based strategy) with no cut scenes there’s nothing to pull from.
Looking at my gravatar I can’t help but it suggesting I be incredibly biased in this match…-facepalm-
“While I still doubt it being truly omnipotent”
Despite A Link to the Past FUCKING SAYING SO?
“He could potentially seal him to end the fight. And Kratos does have the ability to bitchslap Ganon around enough for that.”
Just because Kratos can “bitchslap” Ganondorf around the place doesn’t mean it’s actually hurting him to even weaken him down.
“Why is Link’s sword over his right shoulder? Also, that doesn’t quite seem to be the same thing…We don’t even know if he landed an attack.”
1. In the Gamecube verison of TP Link is left handed, in the Wii version he’s right handed.
2. Midna is a she.
3. Midna had already stabbed down before the scenen changed.
“Looking at my gravatar I can’t help but it suggesting I be incredibly biased in this match…-facepalm”
Ha ha, dude don’t worry about that, look at MY current gravatar.
“Besides look and the Superman vs Ganondorf thread to see that it doesn’t matter how fast you are when your opponent is Ganondorf.”
Couldn’t supes just fly him into a sun faster then Ganon can even think.
Anyway, didn’t hope allow Kratos to destroy Zues’s soul. If not then I can’t think of anything that Kratos has that would put Ganon down for good.
Couldn’t supes just fly him into a sun faster then Ganon can even think.
That was disscussed. Ganondorf would (eventually) teleport back to Superman.
“Despite A Link to the Past FUCKING SAYING SO?”
And contradicting the definition of Omnipotent, yes. It hardly matters now since SS’s is contemplating taking it out. Even if it’s not omnipotent it’s still too much for Kratos in any incarnation too without heavy PIS to help out.
“Just because Kratos can “bitchslap” Ganondorf around the place doesn’t mean it’s actually hurting him to even weaken him down.”
Even doing minimal damage you can’t tell me that an adequately powerful strike would do nothing to Ganon.
“1. In the Gamecube verison of TP Link is left handed, in the Wii version he’s right handed.”
GAH! HE IS ONLY LEFT HANDED!!!
“2. Midna is a she.”
Whatever.
“3. Midna had already stabbed down before the scenen changed.”
It ends before the stab is finished though.
“Ha ha, dude don’t worry about that, look at MY current gravatar.”
DUN DUN DUNNN! But then again we already knew you were a big fan of that.
“Couldn’t supes just fly him into a sun faster then Ganon can even think. ”
BAM!
“It hardly matters now since SS’s is contemplating taking it out.”
In what way is Skyward Sword taking it out?
“Even doing minimal damage you can’t tell me that an adequately powerful strike would do nothing to Ganon.”
The most it could do is destroy his body. He rebuilds it then procedes to laugh as Kratos tries to do it again.
“GAH! HE IS ONLY LEFT HANDED!!!”
The Wii version of Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword says otherwise.
“It ends before the stab is finished though”
I think you can hear Midna’s attack coming into contact with something though.
Hey would Kratos vs. Sloth(FMA) be a good match?
or Spiderman and venom vs Envy and Lust?
“Hey would Kratos vs. Sloth(FMA) be a good match?”
Sloth was the big fat one that kept going onnn and onnnn about eating, right?
@KoD
eh, not really. kratos would stomp sloth. hermes boots tie sloths speed easily. not to mention that while he has terrific regen, he still has human flesh. kratos if anything surpasses him in strength. kratos would chop him to peices till he stopped comign back.
Considering Kratos as a HUMAN could go for three days without rest I think he has the endurance to pull it off too.
@ CIDE
that was gluttony
Never mind then. Sloth was the big muscle bound guy that could bum-rush people then?
@CIDE: That’s Gluttony. Sloth is a big guy.
yeah, Sloth was the big Juggernaut esqe character.
kratos slaughters him regardless, bacvk to the fight at hand here.
Ganon wins this for several reasons.
1. He retains consciousness outside of his body, and even if his body is destroyed, he can easily give himself a new one. You must kill his soul, as well.
2. The only weapons capable of damaging Ganondorf in any way are weapons that are able to repel/banish/squash evil.
3. He can only ever be sealed away unless he has already experienced overloaded exposure to aforementioned weapons. Even then, he has ways of breaking out–and he has, on numerous occasions.
4. Link already beat Kratos without the triforce. Yes, I know that, standing alone, it is not a good reason or even a valid one, but think. Link beats Kratos alone without the triforce, and Link only ever beats TP Ganondorf with the help of another triforce bearer, six sages (most powerful beings in zeldaverse besides oracles and deities), four light spirits (also deities), and the most powerful magic user of an alternate universe.
“Even doing minimal damage you can’t tell me that an adequately powerful strike would do nothing to Ganon.”
Yes, we can, actually. In the final fight of TP, nothing except the Master sword actually damages Ganondorf. Even when you are using the Ordon sword, Link, whom can toss around Gorons with his bare hands, can’t do crap to Ganondorf. He doesn’t even flinch when the blade connects; it’s like it apparates through him.
No one seemed to touch up on my argument I presented.
@ Negative Zero:
“Nope, it was discovered on the Soma Cruz vs Ganondorf thread that just because something is “holy” or “divine” doesn’t mean evil’s bane.”
With the argument I made above, I can agree to some extent. I suppose the weapon at hand would be necessary at slaying evil. If Kratos doesn’t have a weapon meant for that, then what other options does he have?
“So Ganondorf dodging slow lightning=equals real lightning speeds?”
About the lightning, what does this look like? Is it an attack from someone like Zeus? Or is it an electrical attack?
“Despite A Link to the Past FUCKING SAYING SO?”
I believe CIDE was referring to the semantics of the word “omnipotent,” which from the Latin, omni (“all”) and potens (“power”), just means that: “all power.” This is the root word definition, and I do not wish to commit a root word fallacy. However, this was thoroughly discussed in the Xenosaga vs. Nintendo discussion. Even if omnipotence was understood in a way as having “all power,” but not “infinite power,” since “all” and “infinite” aren’t the same thing, I think Ganondorf would still be able to overpower Kratos.
“Just because Kratos can “bitchslap” Ganondorf around the place doesn’t mean it’s actually hurting him to even weaken him down.”
Is this because of the no limits fallacy that is constantly being applied to Ganondorf when it shouldn’t be? I’ve seen different incarnations survive different attacks, but even with a source from Nintendo saying that Ganondorf can only be harmed by “evil’s bane” is still a no limits fallacy, even if it’s something that we know Ganondorf is vulnerable to.
“That was disscussed. Ganondorf would (eventually) teleport back to Superman.”
More no limits fallacy allows Ganondorf to survive the vacuum of space and temperatures reaching 5,000 K even though he’s never demonstrated it. At this rate, applying a logical fallacy and allowing it to continue makes me wonder why anyone even has Ganondorf face anyone.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m rooting for Ganondorf, but this no limits crap needs to stop. Just because we don’t know what else can harm Ganondorf should not allow us to use our imagination and also commit an argument from ignorance.
“kratos slaughters him regardless, bacvk to the fight at hand here.”
yeah
“1. He retains consciousness outside of his body, and even if his body is destroyed, he can easily give himself a new one. You must kill his soul, as well.”
This was already established. I think the debate then went to Kratos’ soul fuckery vs Ganon’s soul integrity.
“2. The only weapons capable of damaging Ganondorf in any way are weapons that are able to repel/banish/squash evil.”
Also already covered. Kratos doesn’t have it.
“4. Link already beat Kratos without the triforce. Yes, I know that, standing alone, it is not a good reason or even a valid one, but think. Link beats Kratos alone without the triforce, and Link only ever beats TP Ganondorf with the help of another triforce bearer, six sages (most powerful beings in zeldaverse besides oracles and deities), four light spirits (also deities), and the most powerful magic user of an alternate universe.”
You’re both right and wrong. You’re right that it’s a good reason. You’re wrong about the valid victory.
“Yes, we can, actually. In the final fight of TP, nothing except the Master sword actually damages Ganondorf. Even when you are using the Ordon sword, Link, whom can toss around Gorons with his bare hands, can’t do crap to Ganondorf. He doesn’t even flinch when the blade connects; it’s like it apparates through him.”
Lifting Gorons=/=lifting mountains.
“About the lightning, what does this look like? Is it an attack from someone like Zeus? Or is it an electrical attack?”
Zeus.
‘I believe CIDE was referring to the semantics of the word “omnipotent,” which from the Latin, omni (“all”) and potens (“power”), just means that: “all power.” This is the root word definition, and I do not wish to commit a root word fallacy. However, this was thoroughly discussed in the Xenosaga vs. Nintendo discussion. Even if omnipotence was understood in a way as having “all power,” but not “infinite power,” since “all” and “infinite” aren’t the same thing, I think Ganondorf would still be able to overpower Kratos.”
Exactly it.
“Is this because of the no limits fallacy that is constantly being applied to Ganondorf when it shouldn’t be? I’ve seen different incarnations survive different attacks, but even with a source from Nintendo saying that Ganondorf can only be harmed by “evil’s bane” is still a no limits fallacy, even if it’s something that we know Ganondorf is vulnerable to.”
It helps to apply the NLF when Ganon hasn’t encountered the king of physical force usually applied in these debates.
Also, even if we assumed Kratos bore all of the powers Ares had it’d still be a bit much for Triforce Ganon Vs God kratos (who really had no feats hence the mention of Ares powers).
No matter how impressive that reality manipulation was.
How does mah new gravitar look?
@ CIDE:
“Zeus.”
I thought so. Was there any special circumstances that allowed Kratos to dodge lightning? For example, in Metroid: Zero Mission, in the battle against the Chozo god of war, there is a flash on the hieroglyphs before lightning actually strikes. This is an indicator for dodging the lightning, so if the player gets hit once, he/she will be able to dodge the lightning after. This would make it aim-dodging. Does something similar to this happen in God of War? If yes, we may dismiss the idea that Kratos has microsecond reaction time.
Having no established upper limit is not the same as not having an upper limit.
“It helps to apply the NLF when Ganon hasn’t encountered the king of physical force usually applied in these debates.”
You cannot apply a logical fallacy to an argument. It makes the argument invalid. Nintendo may have said that nothing can harm Ganondorf except “evil’s bane,” but they have no say over other fictional characters outside of the Zeldaverse. A logical fallacy is a logical fallacy, no matter how you see it.
“Just because we don’t know what else can harm Ganondorf should not allow us to use our imagination and also commit an argument from ignorance.”
Haha, Din’s fire really worked well, same with the ice arrows that can flash-freeze a volcano for five minutes…(sarcasm). No offense Dryn. Just throwing it out there that extreme hot and cold temperatures have never been shown to do much to Ganondorf besides…well, nothing.
“Also already covered. Kratos doesn’t have it.”
I guess the reason I brought it up is because he may need it just to stun Ganondorf, let alone kill him. I mean, Ganon has tanked some pretty fierce stuff–magic strong enough to blow up castles from the aftershock, having another castle actually collapse on top of him, etc. which did a total damage of zilch to him.
“This was already established.”
Yes, sorry ’bout that. I was only looking at where it was discussed whether of not Ganon would be able to possess Kratos. I did not see any mention of Kratos trying to do the same to Ganon. either way, it takes evil’s bane to damage his soul, so…maybe Kratos should have an evil’s bane weapon. Wait, though–does he wield one canonically?
@ Marcel:
“Haha, Din’s fire really worked well, same with the ice arrows that can flash-freeze a volcano for five minutes…(sarcasm). No offense Dryn. Just throwing it out there that extreme hot and cold temperatures have never been shown to do much to Ganondorf besides…well, nothing.”
Fire arrows are pretty hot weapons, Marcel, at least based on the description given in WW. I don’t know if we can assume the same for all the fire arrows throughout the series, but I don’t see why not. However, I wouldn’t say fire arrows or Din’s Fire reach 5,000 K temperature. Even basing this off of color temperature, that’s not the case. Nevertheless, Marcel, I know that Ganondorf can survive extreme heat. Although I think this is TP Ganondorf, WW Ganondorf wasn’t harmed by Valoo’s flame attack. I wonder if Ganondorf, despite the different incarnations, would be granted the same immunity.
“but even with a source from Nintendo saying that Ganondorf can only be harmed by “evil’s bane” is still a no limits fallacy, even if it’s something that we know Ganondorf is vulnerable to.”
So even Nintendo themselves saying it isn’t enough?!? If the actual company says it, it’n not a NLF, it’s a fucking CANON FACT.
@ Negative Zero:
“So even Nintendo themselves saying it isn’t enough?!? If the actual company says it, it’n not a NLF, it’s a fucking CANON FACT.”
No, Negative Zero. I think you may have skimmed through my post. Nintendo says that Ganondorf cannot die by anything except the Master Sword, the sword of evil’s bane. What I was saying was that Nintendo doesn’t have any say in other fictional characters, i.e., Kratos. That’s all.
Addendum: My more recent post with CIDE, Negative Zero.
“No, Negative Zero. I think you may have skimmed through my post. Nintendo says that Ganondorf cannot die by anything except the Master Sword, the sword of evil’s bane. What I was saying was that Nintendo doesn’t have any say in other fictional characters, i.e., Kratos. That’s all.”
Any other weapon with evil’s bane on par with the Master Sword will do.
“So Ganondorf dodging slow lightning=equals real lightning speeds? Besides look and the Superman vs Ganondorf thread to see that it doesn’t matter how fast you are when your opponent is Ganondorf.”
Last I checked the only reason Supes lost that match was because Ganondorf would outlive Superman and Supes had no means of destroying him. Ganondorf had no means of reacting to him quick enough to blast him with magic.
“That was disscussed. Ganondorf would (eventually) teleport back to Superman.”
How long is eventually? I imagine it would take a lot to escape from both the size and gravity. How about a black hole, can Ganon escape a black hole?
Regarding this match, doesn’t the Blade of Olympus drain people of their power? Has ganon been drained of power before?
Also he did beat on Zeus’s soul without the claws of hades so he would at least have a defense/offense against Ganon’s soul with or without them.
Not really a winning strategy though.
@ Negative Zero:
“Any other weapon with evil’s bane on par with the Master Sword will do.”
All right. I hope I have not stepped on yours or anyone else’s toes, Negative Zero. I simply just want to come up with a consensus. Going back to what I said before in regard to “evil’s bane,” “bane” means “injurious, ruinous, fatal.” The Old English was “bana,” which meant “killer,” “slayer,” “murderer.” My understanding was that if a weapon with the purpose of killing or slaying an evil person, it would be effective against Ganondorf. Of course, I pondered what Kratos has at his disposal to eliminate Ganondorf.
I will read up more on no limits fallacies. I think I found someone presenting an understanding of it and when it should be mentioned.
@ Soldier’s Shadow:
“Last I checked the only reason Supes lost that match was because Ganondorf would outlive Superman and Supes had no means of destroying him. Ganondorf had no means of reacting to him quick enough to blast him with magic.”
What? The Universal Death called Supes an “anomaly.” I don’t think Supes can even die, considering how he remained in the Sun for what, 1,500 years in the Sun and was way more amped up than before. Anyway, I do not wish to digress.
“Last I checked the only reason Supes lost that match was because Ganondorf would outlive Superman and Supes had no means of destroying him. Ganondorf had no means of reacting to him quick enough to blast him with magic.”
It was something along those lines.
“Also he did beat on Zeus’s soul without the claws of hades so he would at least have a defense/offense against Ganon’s soul with or without them.”
Zues couldn’t rebuild his body though.
“It was something along those lines.”
Doesn’t battlefield removal still count as a win?
“Zues couldn’t rebuild his body though.”
But he didn’t come back in the end, body or soul. Meaning he destroyed both….. right?
Anyone think Ganon could take on Thor?
“Zues couldn’t rebuild his body though.”
Because Kratos was hurting his soul. No soul, no more living.
Also regeneration is within Zeus’ skill set.
“Doesn’t battlefield removal still count as a win?”
Not if a guy can actually come back.
“Also regeneration is within Zeus’ skill set.”
So he can regenerate from a soul?
“Doesn’t battlefield removal still count as a win?”
In the manner Supes was able to do it to Big G, I’d think it would.
“But he didn’t come back in the end, body or soul. Meaning he destroyed both….. right?”
Sounds like that to me. Didn’t Kratos destroy Zeus’ soul form as part of the final fight of God of War III?
“Anyone think Ganon could take on Thor?”
Laughable match-up. Take out Thor’s speed, reactions, Odinforce and extreme strength, what can Ganondorf do to even hurt him? At least with Superman, Big G’s magic was capable of harming him (potentially rather), I don’t think Thor is really weak to magic.
“Not if a guy can actually come back.”
I believe you said so yourself that Ganondorf would EVENTUALLY get back. If it takes something like years or decades before that, I doubt it’d count as the match going on.
“So he can regenerate from a soul?”
Kratos destroyed his soul as he was still able to sustain himself following bodily destruction.
“I thought so. Was there any special circumstances that allowed Kratos to dodge lightning? For example, in Metroid: Zero Mission, in the battle against the Chozo god of war, there is a flash on the hieroglyphs before lightning actually strikes. This is an indicator for dodging the lightning, so if the player gets hit once, he/she will be able to dodge the lightning after. This would make it aim-dodging. Does something similar to this happen in God of War? If yes, we may dismiss the idea that Kratos has microsecond reaction time.”
Not really. Zeus shoots it and Kratos dodges.
“Having no established upper limit is not the same as not having an upper limit.”
Preaching to the choir with me.
““It helps to apply the NLF when Ganon hasn’t encountered the king of physical force usually applied in these debates.”
You cannot apply a logical fallacy to an argument. It makes the argument invalid. Nintendo may have said that nothing can harm Ganondorf except “evil’s bane,” but they have no say over other fictional characters outside of the Zeldaverse. A logical fallacy is a logical fallacy, no matter how you see it.”
I was siding iwth you on this point.
“Haha, Din’s fire really worked well, same with the ice arrows that can flash-freeze a volcano for five minutes…(sarcasm). No offense Dryn. Just throwing it out there that extreme hot and cold temperatures have never been shown to do much to Ganondorf besides…well, nothing.”
I understand the extreme temperatures of the ice arrow but I don’t recall the fire arrow being all that impressive.
“I guess the reason I brought it up is because he may need it just to stun Ganondorf, let alone kill him. I mean, Ganon has tanked some pretty fierce stuff–magic strong enough to blow up castles from the aftershock, having another castle actually collapse on top of him, etc. which did a total damage of zilch to him.”
In this case with a melee match it’d be damage like that constantly for days straight. Until magic comes up.
“Yes, sorry ’bout that. I was only looking at where it was discussed whether of not Ganon would be able to possess Kratos. I did not see any mention of Kratos trying to do the same to Ganon. either way, it takes evil’s bane to damage his soul, so…maybe Kratos should have an evil’s bane weapon. Wait, though–does he wield one canonically?”
Not really. The only weapon he has currently that may do it is the one from Hades. All for the soul-fuckery. The rest are simply “divine” in the sense that they were blessed/made by gods. However, the archaic notion of “good” and “evil” are mostly lost on God of War and it doesn’t really come up.
“Any other weapon with evil’s bane on par with the Master Sword will do.”
How do we decide if something is “on par”…?
“Regarding this match, doesn’t the Blade of Olympus drain people of their power?”
I forgot about that. But I don’t know if it’d work or not.
“Also he did beat on Zeus’s soul without the claws of hades so he would at least have a defense/offense against Ganon’s soul with or without them.”
Forgot about this too.
“Anyone think Ganon could take on Thor?”
I wouldn’t think so.
“Sounds like that to me. Didn’t Kratos destroy Zeus’ soul form as part of the final fight of God of War III? ”
Yeah.
“I understand the extreme temperatures of the ice arrow but I don’t recall the fire arrow being all that impressive.”
The Fire Arrows in Wind Waker stopped a raging blizzard.
“How do we decide if something is “on par”…?”
By “on par”, I meant comparable.
“Regarding this match, doesn’t the Blade of Olympus drain people of their power?”
Ganondorf get’s most of his power from the Triforce of Power.
“The Fire Arrows in Wind Waker stopped a raging blizzard.”
As I recall the arrows varied from game to game. As did Ganon and his power.
“By “on par”, I meant comparable.”
How exactly do you compare evil killingness?
“Regarding this match, doesn’t the Blade of Olympus drain people of their power?”
Hmm, is it possible for Kratos to use the BoO to drain Ganondorf of his powers gained from the Tri-Force of Power?
Which incarnation of Big G is this again?
Didn’t he say in Wind Waker that he was all the Ganons in canon? Not sure exactly.
WW Ganon said he was OoT Ganon. TP Ganon said he was OoT Ganon. Split Timeline allows this to be true. Both follow immediately after OoT. TP Ganon conclusively dies, and WW Ganon gets sealed in time, and lost in a country that everyone leaves behind.
FSA and LttP Ganon[s?] have backstories that are not compatible with OoT. FSA Ganon specifically is a new born Gerudo male just like OoT Ganon was; that is to say that both of those Ganons were born by Gerudo women, destined to be the king of the Gerudo, and that is were the similarities stop. OoT Ganon was their king. FSA Ganon was exiled. OoT Ganon became a demon by touching the Triforce. FSA Ganon became a demon by grabbing the Trident. OoT Ganon was sealed away in one realm or another. FSA Ganon was sealed into the Four Sword. The Seven Sages sealed OoT Ganon. Zelda and Link, alone, sealed FSA Ganon.
LttP Ganon is back to being a thief king. He became a demon by finding the lost Sacred Realm that even the Sages did not know where it was (that right there means he cannot be OoT Ganon because in OoT the Sages did know where it was). He became a demon by touching the Triforce. The Seven Sages, without Link, sealed him away into the Sacred Realm. The Triforce says he died at the end of LttP, but Nintendo’s official site, Zelda.com, says you merely sealed him once more. This Ganon is the same one from the first LoZ game.
Oracles Ganon any Ganon that died before. I like to think he is LoZ Ganon, but the Oracles games can fit in a couple of different places in the timeline and be justified.
Oh yea, there are multiple Ganons. Nintendo hasn’t said that, but when you are given several, mutually exclusive origin stories to a person with one name and reincarnation is an established fact in the universe… I think you all know where I’m going with this.
@ CIDE:
“Preaching to the choir with me.”
You know, I’ve been thinking more about this and I have wondered where it is even said that Ganondorf cannot be harmed or die by anything but the Master Sword, the blade of evil’s bane. I would prefer a specific source that is of the creator, and not a fictional character’s mouth. The reason for this is because with OBD’s explanation of the no limits fallacy…
“This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).
Example: ‘Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo.’
The person in this argument holds Itachi’s statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has no knowledge of certain enemies, or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in-universe, Itachi was lying, bluffing, misinformed, or deluded.”
I need a source, and since there are multiple Ganondorfs, it’ll be necessary to provide evidence that this applies to all incarnations.
How well would Gannondorf fare against an attack like balefire,would it be enough to hurt him?
So I looked through the OoT and TP game script, and I found nothing about Ganondorf only being able to die by the Master Sword. WW script revealed that the King of Red Lion’s says, “It is none other than the Master Sword… The blade of evil’s bane. It is the only sword that can banish Ganon from the world above!” The problem is that the King of Red Lion’s has no knowledge of all enemies, nor does he expect Ganondorf to encounter enemies outside of the Zeldaverse. Nor was it intended that Ganondorf be pitted against outside characters. The King of Red Lion’s is misinformed or deluded. His statement is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.
Still searching…
Addendum: So here’s what I have found.
“The only weapon potent enough to defeat the wizard is the legendary Master Sword.” (Loyal Sage)
“You cannot defeat me with a blade that does not sparkle with the power to repel evil! What you hold is useless.” (Ganondorf)
“You cannot defeat Ganon until the power to repel evil has been returned to the Master Sword.” (King of Red Lion’s)
“It is none other than the Master Sword… The blade of evil’s bane. It is the only sword that can banish Ganon from the world above!” (King of Red Lion’s)
These people lack knowledge of all enemies and weaponry. None of these characters expected to encounter enemies outside of the Zeldaverse, nor was it intended that Ganondorf be pitted against outside characters. These characters are misinformed or deluded. There statements are an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.
I finally got into the mood to play TP and I can’t even find my damn gamecube now. It’s still packed up in a box somewhere from when I was living out of a storage container.
This fuckin’ sucks.
Onto the debate however…His argument does make sense. And really the only other evidence is gameplay mechanics.
Onto Dryn’s point too; there is no other weapon in that universe in terms of POWAH! for anyone in that universe to compare any of that too also. Four Sword seems more useful but maybe not as powerful and obviously there’s the (correct me if I’m wrong) Golden Sword that is simply an upgraded Master Sword. And I’m guessing this Trident while powerful has never been used against Ganon.
@ CIDE:
“Onto Dryn’s point too; there is no other weapon in that universe in terms of POWAH! for anyone in that universe to compare any of that too also. Four Sword seems more useful but maybe not as powerful and obviously there’s the (correct me if I’m wrong) Golden Sword that is simply an upgraded Master Sword. And I’m guessing this Trident while powerful has never been used against Ganon.”
Well, in terms of strength, the Tempered Sword, Golden Sword, the Biggoron Sword, the Gilded Sword, and Fairy’s Sword all outclass the Master Sword. Also, the Silver Arrows were used in LoZ and ALttP to kill Ganondorf. So apparently this Ganondorf incarnation and the King of Red Lion’s are misinformed about what can harm Ganondorf.
“What? The Universal Death called Supes an “anomaly.” I don’t think Supes can even die, considering how he remained in the Sun for what, 1,500 years in the Sun and was way more amped up than before. Anyway, I do not wish to digress.”
Untrue. Superman dies in one of the movies. Not to mention he dies in a comic series that basically brought the reason to make the movie.
“Well, in terms of strength, the Tempered Sword, Golden Sword, the Biggoron Sword, the Gilded Sword, and Fairy’s Sword all outclass the Master Sword. Also, the Silver Arrows were used in LoZ and ALttP to kill Ganondorf. So apparently this Ganondorf incarnation and the King of Red Lion’s are misinformed about what can harm Ganondorf.”
None of those swords have the definition “Bane of Evil”, so once again, that’s irrelevant. And if I remember correctly — someone already brought up the point that Kratos has no such weapon.
The “sword of evil’s bane” is important, but I don’t know if HAS to be that all the time (I know, stated in canon). In multiple games, Ganondorf could be hurt when his own magic is reflected back into him. In TP, while Beast Ganon, an arrow into his crystal could knock him down. It just seems that using magic or hitting a weak point can negatively affect him. And if it could do that, well, it may just kill him.
This is obviously conjecture, but Ganondorf fights really aren’t that fun if it is just said that his opponent doesn’t have a weapon designed to banish evil. Sorta defeats the purpose of the debate if there isn’t one to start.
“Ganondorf could be hurt when his own magic is reflected back into him.”
He’s never really been hurt by his own magic, just stunned.
“but Ganondorf fights really aren’t that fun if it is just said that his opponent doesn’t have a weapon designed to banish evil. Sorta defeats the purpose of the debate if there isn’t one to start.”
That’s not our fault.
question, why are we forgetting the blade of olympus when considering evil’s bane?
“Well, in terms of strength, the Tempered Sword, Golden Sword, the Biggoron Sword, the Gilded Sword, and Fairy’s Sword all outclass the Master Sword. Also, the Silver Arrows were used in LoZ and ALttP to kill Ganondorf. So apparently this Ganondorf incarnation and the King of Red Lion’s are misinformed about what can harm Ganondorf.”
Temper Sword, and the Golden Sword ARE the Master Sword. Temper Sword is specifically a reforged Master Sword, done by Dwarf master smiths, and the Golden Sword is the Tempered Sword blessed by the Fat Fairy.
Biggoron’s sword. Giant’s Knife both do more physical damage, but do not have the Evil’s Bane property, and Wind Waker showed that a blade that does not have Evil’s Bane just bounces off of him at that point. Gilded Sword is no better than the Tempered Sword at best, and the Fairy’s Sword is maybe as good as the Golden Sword in… Both of those are in terms of blade sharpness, like the Giant’s Knife/Biggoron’s Sword. Neither of those swords have Evil’s Bane either.
The Four Sword DOES have evil’s bane. The whole point of collecting Force Gems in FSA is to power up its ability to repel evil because the Four Sword has been loosing that ability and by the time FSA rolls around it does not have that property unless it has some metaphysical fuel to power it up.
Silver Arrows were used to kill the incarnation of Ganon that the Master Sword could not normally touch. Seriously, if you don’t have the Golden Sword then the only way you can make the game register a hit against him is to use the Spin Attack. LoZ Ganon is the second weakest because his limitations hadn’t been fleshed out yet. Even still it is implied, even back then, that the Silver Arrows have some extra magical kick that makes them lethal to Ganon, and Ganon said that a weapon requires the ability to repel evil in order to hurt him. If you do not use Silver Arrows against Lttp or LoZ Ganon then you can hit him forever, with anything in the game, and he will not die.
In TP, Lttp, and WW, the weapons that do not have Evil’s Bane do no damage to him at all. In Oracles, if Link does not have a weapon of Evil’s bane (i.e. master sword in this case), then only a spin attack will do; nothing else. LoZ… any mundane Sword to stun him and Silver Arrows to kill him; Only Silver Arrows do damage to him. Nothing beyond those two things have any effect on him.
It is only in OoT is he damageable with several mundane weapons. The Finishing Blow, a stab right between the eyes, MUST be with the Master Sword though (cutscene enforce)… he lives through it and is yelling at you in seconds, but already helplessly sealed away by the Sages.
The reason why Evil’s Bane is such a big deal is because he tends to get back up when it is not used against him.
You cannot beat OoT without the Master Sword or Light Arrows. Light Arrows are required to cut through his magic defense and make him vulnerable. The last cutscene makes sure the Master Sword delivers the final blow.
You cannot beat WW without the Master Sword or Light Arrows. Light Arrows are required to stun him. The Master Sword, without Evil’s Bane, just bounces off of Ganondorf as shown in cutscene.
You cannot beat TP without the Master Sword or Light Arrows. Light Arrows are required to stun him at one point. The Ordon Sword, no evil’s bane, does NO Damage to him.
You cannot beat LttP without the Master Sword and Silver Arrows. Master Sword MUST use Spin Attack to even stun him. Golden Sword, a super empowered Master Sword, can use regular strikes. At the last phase of the battle, Silver Arrows are the only weapon that deals damage to him; all other weapons do no damage; Master Sword stuns him for a few seconds.
You cannot beat LoZ without a sword and Silver Arrows. No other weapons deal damage. Sword only stuns him, and does no real damage. Silver Arrows are the only weapon that can kill him.
You cannot beat Oracles without the Master Sword or a sword that can do a spin attack (that is because there is a crucial attribute of the Spin Attack that hurts him; the blade itself does nothing as provable with the Biggoron’s Sword, which cannot Spin Attack in that game and is more powerful than the Master Sword’s regular attack, and that sword cannot damage a half dead Ganon no matter how much you try).
FSA: Four Sword, remember it does have Evil’s Bane, did weaken him. Light Arrows are needed to weaken him enough for the Shrine Maidens to seal him though. Again, weaken; not kill. Game mechanics might, I’m not sure, be getting in the way of finding out if more things can even make him flinch. Normal Arrows do nothing against him. Only the Light Arrows, and even then only when they are charged. (basically Link pulling the bow string back all the way for max power).
So, yeah, there is a demonstrated difference between weapons with and without Evil’s Bane when they are used against Ganon. Specifically, those without have yet to be shown to be able kill him, and in most cases, even able to hurt him.
@ Ryushi:
“Untrue. Superman dies in one of the movies. Not to mention he dies in a comic series that basically brought the reason to make the movie.”
Movies aren’t canon. I cannot recall a comic where Superman died, except aside from the battle against Doomsday. Even then, this is referring to biological immortality, not immortality in that he is incapable of death through another means.
“None of those swords have the definition “Bane of Evil”, so once again, that’s irrelevant.”
That doesn’t matter. There’s nothing in the Zelda series that says Ganondorf can only die by the Master Sword. The characters in question are faulty in understanding, as they are not omniscient, and they do not know the concerns of things outside of the Zeldaverse.
@ Aelfinn:
The “sword of evil’s bane” is important, but I don’t know if HAS to be that all the time (I know, stated in canon). In multiple games, Ganondorf could be hurt when his own magic is reflected back into him. In TP, while Beast Ganon, an arrow into his crystal could knock him down. It just seems that using magic or hitting a weak point can negatively affect him. And if it could do that, well, it may just kill him.
This is obviously conjecture, but Ganondorf fights really aren’t that fun if it is just said that his opponent doesn’t have a weapon designed to banish evil. Sorta defeats the purpose of the debate if there isn’t one to start.
@ OriginalA:
“Temper Sword, and the Golden Sword ARE the Master Sword. Temper Sword is specifically a reforged Master Sword, done by Dwarf master smiths, and the Golden Sword is the Tempered Sword blessed by the Fat Fairy.”
I know. I simply wished to bifurcate, or I suppose I should say trifurcate the swords individually to point out that compared to its original form, the Tempered and Golden Swords are a much stronger blade.
“Even still it is implied, even back then, that the Silver Arrows have some extra magical kick that makes them lethal to Ganon, and Ganon said that a weapon requires the ability to repel evil in order to hurt him.”
Well, Zelda.com does say that there is magic involved with the Silver Arrows, but nothing of it repelling evil. At the same time, when silver is shined in light, it gives off a whitish glare, which indicated a symbolic aspect to purity. This is why silver worked well against mythological monsters of the past.
“It is only in OoT is he damageable with several mundane weapons. The Finishing Blow, a stab right between the eyes, MUST be with the Master Sword though (cutscene enforce)… he lives through it and is yelling at you in seconds, but already helplessly sealed away by the Sages.”
It was the throat, actually, and yes, it was a scripted sequence. At the same time, ordinary arrows will annoy Ganondorf in this form, and he is vulnerable to the Bigorron Sword and Megaton Hammer.
“The reason why Evil’s Bane is such a big deal is because he tends to get back up when it is not used against him.”
In the battle in OoT, yes, as it is scripted. This is only within the Zeldaverse, however, and Ganondorf has never demonstrated a durability against something stronger than steel. Oh, well all right, he survived two castles if OoT is WW Ganondorf.
“Light Arrows are required to cut through his magic defense and make him vulnerable.”
Yes, I am aware of this, and it’s interesting that it seems magic is acting as some type of formfitting “shield.” No doubt Ganondorf has some kind of durability on his side with the aid of magic. I’d think that light weapons would be more effective against his magic defense, but is not the only thing that can penetrate that defense.
Now, you do explain the different battles with Ganondorf, OriginalA, this still does not provide proof that Ganondorf cannot die by any other weapon. Please do not think I completely ignored what you said. You did offer examples of Ganondorf being immune to such and such, but this is within the Zeldaverse. The characters whom I have quoted say that you need the Master Sword to defeat Ganondorf, but their knowledge is limited. It is simply what they know in their universe.
These characters are completely ignorant about any other weaponry or enemy outside of the Zeldaverse, and even things that have not yet been tested within the Zeldaverse. This is similar to the way Aurora Unit 242 telling Samus that the only way to defeat Dark Samus is by using the Phazon Beam, or the way Aurora Unit 217 says that the only way to get the network back online is by defeating Ghor to obtain his plasma cannon. This is clearly not true, as there are other methods. The thing is, we are required within the script to do such and such.
So, as you can see, the problem is the limited knowledge the characters have. They are exaggerating by saying that only the Master Sword can defeat Ganondorf. Ganondorf has never demonstrated immunity to things like the vacuum of space, heat as hot as a star, temperatures reaching near, at, or below 0 K, (Yes, in fiction, negative numbers are possible in Kelvin.), forces that shatter reality, &c. Logical fallacies should not be permitted at all in any discussion because by definition, a logical fallacy simply makes the argument invalid. With this all in mind, I see three logical fallacies being committed, and I must say this is a tad much just to support Ganondorf’s inability to die by anything.
The first is clearly a no limits fallacy. We know what this means, so I’ll move onto the next one. It’s an argument from ignorance because the characters in question make claims that only the Master Sword or that which repels evil can harm Ganondorf. What we have seen by demonstration is still not enough to determine complete immunity to all things. No other demonstration has been shown, so they are only asserting things based on their knowledge or the knowledge of things passed down. They know nothing outside of their universe. As I said before, having no established upper limit is not the same as not having an upper limit.
The third fallacy is a non sequitur. It is true that what have been shown to be effective against Ganondorf are the Light Arrows, Silver Arrows, and the Master Sword. The conclusion is that nothing works on Ganondorf unless it has the power to repel evil. There is no proof whatsoever to support this claim. All that has been demonstrated are castles falling on Ganondorf, some kind of immunity to a certain heat temperature (Valoo’s flame), durability against sharp objects made of steel (Zelda.com says the Master Sword is made of steel. I would presume the Rusl’s sword and Tetra’s dagger are made of such alloy.), and maybe a few other things I’ve not listed here.
If we are going to entertain ourselves with logical fallacies just so Ganondorf has a winning chance, then there is no point in having any discussion with Ganondorf at all. Ever. It will be the same result most of the time., since it will always result the idea that nothing can harm Ganondorf. Again, there’s no in-game data that says such thing. All I have found are peoples’ limited opinions concerning Ganondorf. I do not wish to frustrate you, OriginalA, and I do thank you for offering demonstrations.
“I wonder if Ganondorf, despite the different incarnations, would be granted the same immunity.”
I would say so, but not because of that solely. I was referring to the ice arrows, din’s fire and fire arrows that had no effect on him in OoT, which is also TP Ganondorf. The only reason I brought up the volcano incident is it is something we can pull from as a usable feat for the ice arrow’s demonstrated power.
“This is only within the Zeldaverse, however, and Ganondorf has never demonstrated a durability against something stronger than steel.”
*cough* Bombs, bomb arrows, megaton hammer…*cough cough*
“The “sword of evil’s bane” is important, but I don’t know if HAS to be that all the time (I know, stated in canon). In multiple games, Ganondorf could be hurt when his own magic is reflected back into him. ”
You tell me if it NEEDS to be Evil’s Bane all of the time. Can he be KILLED by hitting him with his own magic? I’ll answer this for you actually: No. In OoT that merely stunned him long enough for the Light Arrows to stun him. At this point no actual damage has been done to Ganondorf; you have to follow up with some other attack in order to deal real damage to him. In FSA this did actually debilitate him. This did weaken him, and eventually this exhausted him. It didn’t finish him off though. He did become weak enough to seal though. This does mess up TP Ganondorf while he is in Zelda’s body, but he survives many more impressive attacks, consistently, later, and it didn’t even damage her body either. Cannot be done at any point against Ganon in: WW, LttP, LoZ, and Oracles
“In TP, while Beast Ganon, an arrow into his crystal could knock him down. It just seems that using magic or hitting a weak point can negatively affect him. And if it could do that, well, it may just kill him.”
Keep shooting those arrows into his head. You will never beat him. All you will ever accomplish is knocking him down. He keeps getting back up unless you actually hit him with the Master Sword or Wolf Link’s Teeth.
Neither of those things you suggested ever got rid of Ganon on their own.
“Well, Zelda.com does say that there is magic involved with the Silver Arrows, but nothing of it repelling evil. At the same time, when silver is shined in light, it gives off a whitish glare, which indicated a symbolic aspect to purity. This is why silver worked well against mythological monsters of the past.”
Yes, nothing ever says it has Evil’s Bane, BUT READ WHAT I HAVE BEEN TYPING!!! Silver Arrows are KNOWN to have a unique attribute to them beyond being merely silver. The Old Man in LoZ says “SECRET POWER IS SAID TO BE IN THE ARROW.” The ONLY things that have done CONCLUSIVE and CONSISTENT damage to Ganon is shit with EVIL’S BANE and the Silver Arrows! By Occam’s Razor, that means Silver Arrows ARE Evil’s Bane.
“It was the throat, actually, and yes, it was a scripted sequence. At the same time, ordinary arrows will annoy Ganondorf in this form, and he is vulnerable to the Bigorron Sword and Megaton Hammer.”
www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4JIE8JanBk&feature=related
It was between the eyes! Also, I just looked at 3 different videos of this scene, 1 early version on the 64 (red blood) , 1 of a later release (green blood), and this one; it was not changed. The image is just cleaner on the 3DS version.
The rest is noted… and also noted to have FAILED to have killed him.
“These characters are completely ignorant about any other weaponry or enemy outside of the Zeldaverse, and even things that have not yet been tested within the Zeldaverse. This is similar to the way Aurora Unit 242 telling Samus that the only way to defeat Dark Samus is by using the Phazon Beam, or the way Aurora Unit 217 says that the only way to get the network back online is by defeating Ghor to obtain his plasma cannon. This is clearly not true, as there are other methods.”
Which is why:
A) Factpile rule: 9. Elemental Compatibility which is basically saying stuff like Chi in Dragon Ball is basically the same stuff as Chakra in Naruto.
B) What more powerful weapon is there in the Zeldaverse?! Light Arrows are the weapons of the gods! The Master Sword was forged with the ability to destroy an abstract concept, and can resist even the Triforce itself! Silver Arrows are even more powerful than either of the two above! Even the Four Sword, and awesome but ultimately weak weapon compared to the Master Sword, cannot kill this guy. What else you got? Cannons? The dude BLEW UP A CASTLE ON TOP OF HIMSELF! He walked away.
C) Dark Samus could only be killed by Phazon because Phazon could make reality its bitch, and fuck time in the asshole. The only thing that disrupted Phazon was more Phazon. She happened to have been intangible to normal weapons!
D) Samus needed Ghor’s Plasma Beam as a welding tool, and that was the only place for Samus to get one in a meaningful amount of time. << See that last part? That is a CONDITIONAL. If Samus HAD the time to get a plasma beam from somewhere else she wouldn't need Ghor's, but she didn't have the time, so she DID need Ghor's.
"They are exaggerating by saying that only the Master Sword can defeat Ganondorf. Ganondorf has never demonstrated immunity to things like the vacuum of space, heat as hot as a star, temperatures reaching near, at, or below 0 K, (Yes, in fiction, negative numbers are possible in Kelvin.), forces that shatter reality, &c. Logical fallacies should not be permitted at all in any discussion because by definition, a logical fallacy simply makes the argument invalid. With this all in mind, I see three logical fallacies being committed, and I must say this is a tad much just to support Ganondorf’s inability to die by anything."
While true, Ganondorf has not been placed into a vacuum, he has shown to be able to exist as a concept instead of a physical object. At this point physical limitations tends to break down. You can no more freeze a soul with science than you can chain love in a box. If you can do these things then your "science" and "box" have metaphysical properties that is beyond our comprehension. … Like Evil's Bane.
"As I said before, having no established upper limit is not the same as not having an upper limit."
Which is the same thing as saying as "there is no provable limit, and is thus limitless". No weapon aside from the weapons of Evil's Bane can be proven to kill him. On the other hand, in most cases we have PROVABLE INEFFECTIVENESS of weapons of mundane origin.
Zelda.com: Master Sword: "Hyrule's most legendary blade is the Master Sword. Forged centuries before becoming Link's most well-loved weapon, the Master Sword consists of more than just steel. It possesses a magical power which is aligned toward the forces of valor and kindness. The Master Sword will not allow itself to be held by just anyone. Only a pure soul filled with the forces of good may lay hands on the Master Sword.”
See that? The Master Sword is beyond our understanding. Mind you this is BEFORE you factor in that the bloody sword can stop, and even reverse, the flow of time. It is a metaphysical weapon.
Merriam Webster said: metaphysical: : of or relating to metaphysics
2
__a: of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses
__b: supernatural
3: highly abstract or abstruse; also : theoretical
“., since it will always result the idea that nothing can harm Ganondorf. Again, there’s no in-game data that says such thing.”
Ganondorf HIMSELF says otherwise. YOU have even quoted him saying “such things”.
Now tell me… Who should I believe? You; who has deliberately ignored canon and scientific fact because it “felt wrong”; who I have shown to wrong on several occasions and points; and who is citing from a source that is both outdated and on some things provably inaccurate (although this may just be a Poisoning the Well fallacy against Zelda.com), OR the other guy; who has the power of a goddess that transcends reality; who has demonstrated the ability to exist as a concept as much as an object; who is the second most knowledgeable source on all things Triforce related in the entire series; and who is consistently shown to be exactly not what you are claiming him to be?
WHOM SHOULD I LISTEN TO?
…I still think balefire would kill him though…
Wow…this isn’t even about Ganondorf vs Kratos anymory. Well, Big G wins then.
For any future matches regarding Ganondorf……make sure you spell his fucking name right.
Ugh! There goes my argument. -.- Word’s auto-recovery did absolutely nothing. Well, whatever. I’ll just abstain from future Ganondorf discussions since it’s often, if not always, the same result.
“Wow…this isn’t even about Ganondorf vs Kratos anymory.”
Things need to be discussed thoroughly about a character, Negative Zero. Word went shit on me with some strange ass “?” signs and completely screwed my counter-argument. I used Ctrl+Z in hopes that it would reverse whatever the heck happened. I don’t feel like rewriting it all.
“For any future matches regarding Ganondorf……make sure you spell his fucking name right.”
His name was spelled that way in another debate here at FactPile. I forgot which one, but I think someone said something along the lines of, “It’s spelled Gannondorf.”
“Ugh! There goes my argument. -.- Word’s auto-recovery did absolutely nothing.”
It helps if you highlight your posts and then copy them so if the site suddenly fucks out (which it’s been known to do) all you’ll have to do is just paste it.
“His name was spelled that way in another debate here at FactPile. I forgot which one, but I think someone said something along the lines of, “It’s spelled Gannondorf.””
I know, but his name just doesn’t have that many fucking N’s.
@ Negative Zero:
“It helps if you highlight your posts and then copy them so if the site suddenly fucks out (which it’s been known to do) all you’ll have to do is just paste it.”
It was on MS Word. :/
“I know, but his name just doesn’t have that many fucking N’s.”
Didn’t you know, Negative Zero? Ganondorf has the extra “N” because his real name is GanNintendorf.
@NZ
you cant just hand gannondorf (soooooooo intentional) a victory merely because the argument has strayed from the path, we are merely prperly assesing his feats and determining if kratos has anything which could harm him
which brings me back to my question, why are we disregarding the god killing blade of olympus as a potential evil’s bane?
“you cant just hand gannondorf (soooooooo intentional) a victory merely because the argument has strayed from the path, we are merely prperly assesing his feats and determining if kratos has anything which could harm him”
I can when Kratos has NO WAY of even hurting Ganondorf.
“why are we disregarding the god killing blade of olympus as a potential evil’s bane?”
Because it’s never been stated to have that quality and there’s no real way to prove that it does.
ok. thank you for giving a logical response
Yep.
“Didn’t you know, Negative Zero? Ganondorf has the extra “N” because his real name is GanNintendorf.”
Ahhhhhh, those clever bastards.
Um, aren’t all of kratos’s blades pretty much blessed. Te blade of olympus had a gods energy in it, and the blades of chaos or whatever were forged in the depths of hades or something along those lines.
“Um, aren’t all of kratos’s blades pretty much blessed. Te blade of olympus had a gods energy in it, and the blades of chaos or whatever were forged in the depths of hades or something along those lines.”
Blessed by gods doesn’t mean it destroys evil specifically.
KHARN is GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD and Kratos is his one and only son Jesus.
Am I the only one who thinks Ganondorf matches here suck? I love Big G as my favorite Nintendo character but really, it’s all the same narrow weakness crap each and every time like here and vs Sephiroth. Soma Cruz vs Ganon was probably the only match of his that proved interesting here…
Quite a shame really, Big G is an epic character but ends up just like Wolverine matches were he’ll win….sooner or later.
I think that most people who suggest Ganondorf matches don’t think about it before they submit them for posting.
I mean who would win: Superman or Ironman? Both are cool characters everyone know exactly how that will play out.
It is the same thing with Ganondorf.
For the record, I’m of the opinion that Superman did win his match against Ganondorf. Superman could put him several lightyears away in a very small amount of time; it would take Ganondorf eons to get back. Effective Battlefield removal.
But yeah, people need to think about things before they send them in. That is no different than any other bad match on Factpile.
” but ends up just like Wolverine matches were he’ll win….sooner or later.”
Dont forget alucard.. You cant forget about alucard
“I think that most people who suggest Ganondorf matches don’t think about it before they submit them for posting.”
I hear ya on that one. I personally suggested this match-up (dammit it for not listing me as the suggestor!) because I thought they’d be more on an equal footing with Kratos’ soul fuckery versus Ganondorf’s magics but with the strictly ‘evil’s bane’ thing, I didn’t think it’d be that deep of a discussion behind it as I’m not the biggest buff on LoZ.
“But yeah, people need to think about things before they send them in. That is no different than any other bad match on Factpile.”
Pretty much.
“Dont forget alucard.. You cant forget about alucard”
When it’s pre-Catboy Alucard I agree with you but with proper forethought matches with latest incarnation of Alucard could be interesting like with Alucard vs Dr. Manhattan or against Sauron. There’s bound to be others out there on a neutral playing field as Al (end manga one) in that both characters have a means of killing the other without having some uber tool of destroying the other like some crazy light speed soul fuckery.
Much easier said than done though on match-ups there.
“because I thought they’d be more on an equal footing with Kratos’ soul fuckery versus Ganondorf’s magics but with the strictly ‘evil’s bane’ thing,”
Okay, tell me more.
Because the Evil’s Bane thing is because most people cannot fuck with souls. Ganondorf has been shown to be effected by some soul mucking about. It didn’t kill him, his body was gone for while though, but it did show that it could have an effect on him.
If nothing else this opens the door to potential battle field removal because Kratos is capable of manipulating the metaphysical being that Ganon can survive as.
… If your claim is substantiated anyways.
@ N.Z.
“Blessed by gods doesn’t mean it destroys evil specifically.”
So Link only killed Ganondorf because the Master Sword is the sword of evils bane, in a way your saying that.
“…I still think balefire would kill him though…”
I don’t think anyone could really disagree.
“Well, Big G wins then.”
The debate is still going. shush.
“I can when Kratos has NO WAY of even hurting Ganondorf.”
He does; it was simply dismissed immediately by G’s side.
“Um, aren’t all of kratos’s blades pretty much blessed. Te blade of olympus had a gods energy in it, and the blades of chaos or whatever were forged in the depths of hades or something along those lines.”
Blessed=/=evil’s bane=/=holy. It was addressed earlier by OA. USUALLY Holy is considered “evil’s bane” in the sense that it does extra damage to evil/non-holy/tainted characters. However, “holy”, “divine”, etc in its purest definitions does include a broader range than simply “evil’s bane”.
“Quite a shame really, Big G is an epic character but ends up just like Wolverine matches were he’ll win….sooner or later.”
It does get annoying, yeah.
“I think that most people who suggest Ganondorf matches don’t think about it before they submit them for posting. ”
Same with 90% of the matches on FP. OR! A trend I noticed is that the person that posts it ont he site excludes some details that the OP provided.
“For the record, I’m of the opinion that Superman did win his match against Ganondorf. Superman could put him several lightyears away in a very small amount of time; it would take Ganondorf eons to get back. Effective Battlefield removal. ”
Agreed. The length of time needed to get back seals it. Not that it’s really award worthy.
“Dont forget alucard.. You cant forget about alucard”
He is easier to end than the likes of Ganon though.
There’s several ways to do it in fact.
“Okay, tell me more.
Because the Evil’s Bane thing is because most people cannot fuck with souls. Ganondorf has been shown to be effected by some soul mucking about. It didn’t kill him, his body was gone for while though, but it did show that it could have an effect on him.
If nothing else this opens the door to potential battle field removal because Kratos is capable of manipulating the metaphysical being that Ganon can survive as.
… If your claim is substantiated anyways.”
Kratos had weapons won by Hades that would grab the soul when struck against the target. It could be fought against; but long story short he sucks the souls on in when successful. IIRC it was a matter of will power rather than raw power to fight against it but I could be wrong on the last part.
“So Link only killed Ganondorf because the Master Sword is the sword of evils bane, in a way your saying that.”
Pretty much.
I remember seeing some weapon that Hades used that did that, and that Kratos got them in GoW 3. What happens to the souls once they are removed from the body? Can Krertons do anything besides remove the souls from the body?
If all Kratos does is pull out the soul then this doesn’t change much because Ganondorf can exist just fine as a soul (TP anyways). If the weapon does something else to the soul while, or immediately after, removing the soul from the body then you’re on to something big.
More details please.
The Claws of Hades can, with a weakened opponent, take the soul of it’s target if they are overpowered, and use it to power the weapons themselves, one can also use the souls in the blades as weapons, summoning them to attack opponents. If Kratos can not stun Ganondorf, he can’t really soul fuck him.