Suggested by Envoy
This is easily the biggest group combat match featured on FactPile to date. The Z-01 Lancelot arrives from Code Geass, against the RX-78-2 Gundam, the Eva Unit 01 against Blade Liger from the Zoids franchise and making it’s series and character debut on FactPile is the ARX-8 Laevatein from Full Metal Panic.
RULES:
Everyone has infinite full food/fuel for this match. It takes place in the final mission for Advance Wars: Dual Strike, the armies from the series are not present and have no influence on the match. No combatant is allowed to fly.
Advance Wars mission: (Video)
Geofront layers @ 4:40
www.animecrazy.net/neon-genesis-evangelion-episode-6/
And I’m revising my statement. I made the previous claim off of memory, but this time I measured it. The layers are alternating metal/rock at a thickness ratio of 4:5 (top layer is initially ignored as it is obviously much larger than any other layer).
I can’t for the life of me find the depth calculation so I’ll explain new math now.
In full screen on my monitor, the actual size for the rock sections between the metal layers is 5 cm and the metal layers themselves are 4 cm. The drill has a stated diameter of 17.5 m and a scale size of 4.5 cm, so to scale 1 cm == 3.88 m. Each layer of rock is equal to 19.44 m and each layer of metal at 15.55 m.
Okay, I was wrong previously by about a quarter. I’ll admit that.
Let’s calc that total amount though anyways. 22 layers of armor at 15.55m each + 22 layers of rock at 19.44m each + the top layer of rock at 40.83m (its extra thick) == 810.61 m.
Okay, and that also means that Zerual blasted through 280 meters of metal and some 650 meters of rock and armor in one shot.
Thanks for calling me out on that. I’ll admit I was previously wrong, but I got to admit I was pretty close for not having watched that scene for a few years and going off of memory.
naw man dont worry on it; i aint that hot on the maths side of things, so i have to have the calcs in front of me and work through them or i’m no good
@ Original
Speed has to do with how hard your foot hits the ground. The incredible strength of an EVA has more to do with how it got to go so fast than anything else. Reaction time is COMPLETELY different. It’s already been shown that whatever Shinji does, Suzaku and Amuro are better pilots. It’s more down to the machine capabilities now. If the armor can’t with stand the weaponry then Shinji might lose. I’ve heard he can use his AT field to pick out the pilots themselves, but I never saw any follow up on how he does this or anything. If you want to comment on that though, I’d be glad to see it. If Shinji can just splat the pilots in their cockpits then chances are he wins. I don’t think Amuro’s mental abilities would really be able to stop Shinji from doing that.
The colonies are something like five miles wide, even if the nuke’s only at only 50 kilotons, the temperatures experienced are STILL higher than the Adzam’s Plasma Leader. It’s also not my fault at all that you think that the Gelgoog couldn’t possibly absorb the heat and blast wave of the nuke. Hell, it might even be a bit of PIS that Lalah survived that. The nuke is sending 100 foot boulders flying. Would you care to do the calcs of how much force you’d need to throw something that heavy around to get the blast force of the Nuke? Although the blast force isn’t what I’m really worried about, it’s more the heat. Beam Sabers are NEVER observed to not melt what they touch. The only defense ever invented that can stop beam sabers is literally other beam sabers (or beam shields) and anti-beam ablative coating.. so pretty much everything they touch, they vaporize. An AT Field stopping something that melts rock isn’t really enough evidence that it can stop a beam saber. My entire argument so far has been showing what the extreme lower end temperature for a Beam Saber COULD be. I don’t know if an upper limit for beam sabers are ever given.
Assuming then that EVA’s dont get hurt by Magma, then we know both the Gundam and the EVA’s can tank magma. We know both have crazy fictional armor which is only stopped by a crazy fictional weapons. We -still- haven’t reached a point where it’s been proven that Gundarium can be harmed by the EVA unless it’s in berserk mode.
Also, while the Gundam was stunned briefly, my chief point is that the armor experienced no damage what so ever from those temperatures. Temperatures, which, again, would have been higher in the nuke it experienced.
@ Laharl
Your videos don’t show feats any greater than Blade Liger or Gundam have pulled off. In fact greater feats for the EVA’s have already been shown. Reread the thread. Try again.
@ Andrew
The angel never hits the EVA with that beam in the video you show me, unless I blinked and missed it. In fact it hits it with beams that cause far less destruction and completely rip through the EVA with out a problem. The only thing that’s an issue is the core. Which makes me wonder how well the EVA would fight if Shinji were killed, since the Angel was more worried about the EVA’s core than the pilot.
“We -still- haven’t reached a point where it’s been proven that Gundarium can be harmed by the EVA unless it’s in berserk mode.”
The internal workings of gundams are not gundanium, so if the Eva gets a hold of it, it could easily tear it limb from limb. Additionally, striking the Gundam with sufficient strength to cause lethal acceleration to the pilot is possible, Eva’s get around that with the fluid filled plugs, Gundam pilots have no such protection.
“Which makes me wonder how well the EVA would fight if Shinji were killed, since the Angel was more worried about the EVA’s core than the pilot.”
It’s been a while, but hasn’t 01 moved without a pilot being present?
“The angel never hits the EVA with that beam in the video you show me”
since i used several different video’s your gonna have to tell me which one “that” beam happens in.
“It’s also not my fault at all that you think that the Gelgoog couldn’t possibly absorb the heat and blast wave of the nuke.”
it cant. unless you are telling us it has some property which bends *all* energy towards its location. which would make it more powerful than the all the combined energies of the universe. so…you know.
basically; the gelgoog covers lalah correct? but it doesnt provide complete protection, because its a bipedal mecha, not a perfect sphere. therefor lalah must necessarily recieve some of the energy from the blast. she doesnt so much as flinch, or break a sweat. ergo, the blast was not very powerful.
“The nuke is sending 100 foot boulders flying.”
and you will have evidence to support this other than your own hyperbole right? like say, calculations based on a size comparison on screen?
“Would you care to do the calcs of how much force you’d need to throw something that heavy around to get the blast force of the Nuke?”
no, thats your job, since you are the one claiming that is what happens.
” Beam Sabers are NEVER observed to not melt what they touch.”
is it actually a melting effect we observe? obviously production values cause a problem as regards discerning this, but i dont remember seeing a melt effect.
“… Beam Sabers are NEVER observed to not melt what they touch….”
ablative armour bring designed to deflect directional weaponry. it couldnt stop a heat based weapon in the same way.
“We -still- haven’t reached a point where it’s been proven that Gundarium can be harmed by the EVA unless it’s in berserk mode.”
simple laws of kinetic energy dictate that the gundam can be damaged by the evangelion. the gundanium armour might not, but the rest of it? its only steel, ceramic, circuit board and squishy, squishy human; so even if the gundanium armour survives the impact of unit ones fist/foot/knee/whatever, the rest of it wont.
@ Canantra
Never said the Eva wouldn’t find other means of defeating the Gundam with out it’s berserker beam of wtfpwn. The biggest problem would just be hitting it. My primary argument this whole time is trying to show how hot Beam Sabers are by showing that they’re dangerous to things which have already tanked X amount of punishment. Seeing as these guys believe that an EVA is immune to a beam saber.
@ Andrew
Was referring to Zeruel. Hoping I spelled that right.
The boulder in the movie is not quite twice the size of the gundam, so 100 feet is just a rough estimate. If you want to propose a different height then go for it. Gundam’s something like 18 meters (although size change is rampant in Gundam) so go ahead and compare. I could be off by an enormous amount for all I know.
Beam sabers do have a melting effect. The battle with the Gouf leaves behind molten metal, the ragged plating around the wound is hot enough to be malleable by Ramba Ral (who’s protective suit is somehow able to handle these temperatures and TOUCH the molten metal. This may be PIS.)
Shin’s beam saber is used on a low setting to melt through the ice and a thin layer of ground to give them access to a hot spring and presumably to warm to the water. Why beam sabers have a low setting I don’t even know.
Shiro not Shin.
Beam saber is a modification of the beam rifle, which is itself a particle beam weapon. From that main page i see no mention of temperature emitted by the particle beam, which makes sense as partcile beams utilise kinetic energy, as opposed to heat, to deal damage. Now I’m not saying it has no heat component, but heat is not it’s primary kill mechanism. The amount of Kinetic energy that the EVA frame undergoes is sigtnificantly higher then that of a gundam, especially when you factor in that the main method of combating angels involves CQC.
“The biggest problem would just be hitting it”
As no combatant is allowed fly in this match, and considering the relative size and speed of the two opponents, landing a hit would not be difficult for the EVA.
Here ya go Cananatra.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyQlOX20Sx0
This video shows beam sabers causing significant thermal damage to.. well.. everything they touch. They do not rely on kinetic force. Beam sabers rely on minovsky physics to contain a plasma field in the shape of a sword. They do not simply curve a megaparticle beam around in the shape of the blade.
Yes, that’s not the RX-78-2, but I think it should be good enough to show you that they melt through stuff.
“I’ve heard he can use his AT field to pick out the pilots themselves, but I never saw any follow up on how he does this or anything.”
As previously demonstrated, AT Fields generally fuck shit up unless it has its own AT Field. As you have so adamantly stated, nobody else has an AT Field. Mass just doesn’t really matter to a metaphysical barrier. Energy, and the distance from the origin point does, but mass is pretty much ignored. The Evas don’t use their AT Fields as knives because they are trying to limit collateral damage, and their enemies have AT Fields of their own that prevent the Evas from attacking in that manner. On the flip side, Angel generally don’t care about creating collateral damage; they have a strickt seek and retrieve mission and always take the most direct root to their object and that does not include randomly cutting up buildings, nor can they cut up Evas because they have AT Fields strong enough to keep the Angels’ AT Fields from being created inside them.
It is one of the most important things to understand on how AT Fields interact with matter and energy is that AT Fields cannot destroy energy, but can destroy matter. Or rather, Anti-AT Fields (an inverted AT Field that nulls other AT Fields; again this is S.O.P. for Evas and Angels) can do this.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHL8AtdVx-Y&NR=1
“It’s also not my fault at all that you think that the Gelgoog couldn’t possibly absorb the heat and blast wave of the nuke.”
Not my fault that that isn’t how convection works.
Also at that scene where Char goes off to save that woman from the nuclear mine field, it takes 7 seconds for him to get there. Assuming his mech could accelerate at 4 g (which, according to the specs I’m getting from a site*, is nearly 2 full g’s more than anything else but that specific suit is unquantified so I think I’m giving myself enough room for error here), and calculating the kill zone of the pressure wave (same site as previously posted for calcing the AT Field’s yield) that would put her, and Char, at (9.81 m/s * 4 * 7s ==) 257 meters. Since she was unharmed, that puts the yield at around … less than 1 kiloton.
meyerweb.com/eric/tools/gmap/hydesim.html
This site cannot calculate less than 1 kiloton explosive force, and not only was she unharmed but the glass on her jeep was undamaged. At 1 kiloton of force, she should have been paste (due to heat and , and glass should be shattering at a distance at a mile and a half.
Even a 15 kiloton bomb should produce a fireball that would have swollowed up half of the colony if that colony size is accurate.
I think you need to reevaluate your yields.
*http://www.mahq.net/Mecha/gundam/eis/index.htm
Again, this is a failure of Sauroposeidon to deliver quantifiable data, and instead offering generalizations and lazy math. No wonder L-W got fed up with people like that. It is rather annoying to do their work for them just to shut them up.
Also:
“The colonies are something like five miles wide, even if the nuke’s only at only 50 kilotons”
Assuming you are accurate that the colonies are five miles wide, a 50 kiloton explosion would cause a pressure wave to dissipate through out the entire colony and shattering every bit of glass there is. Not only that, but since the colonies are contained areas that blast pressure would have no where to escape to (till it punctures the hull anyways) and likely amplify the destructing force.
“This video shows beam sabers causing significant thermal damage to.. well.. everything they touch. They do not rely on kinetic force. Beam sabers rely on minovsky physics to contain a plasma field in the shape of a sword. They do not simply curve a megaparticle beam around in the shape of the blade.”
www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/uc/background/glossary_technology.html
Beam Sabre:
“A mobile suit melee weapon first employed by the RX-78 Gundam. The hilt of the beam saber houses an energy capacitor (E-CAP) like that of a beam rifle, whose stored Minovsky particles are released to form a lethal energy blade. The mass-produced RGM-79 GM and MS-14 Gelgoog are also equipped with this weapon, and it becomes a standard feature after the end of the One Year War.”
Beam rifle:
A compact mega particle cannon, comparable to the main guns of a space warship, which can be carried by a mobile suit. The rifle’s energy is supplied by an energy capacitor (E-CAP), rather than the mobile suit’s own reactor, and this energy supply can only be replenished inside a base or carrier vessel. First developed by the Earth Federation Forces, this weapon is used by the RX-78 Gundam and RX-77 Guncannon, and later by the Principality of Zeon’s MS-14 Gelgoog. By the time of the Gryps Conflict, the beam rifle has become standard equipment for all mobile suits.
Particle weapon technology:
“The general idea of particle-beam weaponry is to hit a target object with a stream of accelerated particles moving at near the speed of light and therefore carrying tremendous kinetic energy; the particles transfer their kinetic energy to the atoms in the molecules of the target upon striking, much as a cue ball transfers its energy to the racked balls in billiards, thus exciting the target’s atoms and superheating the target object in a short time, leading to explosion either of the surface layer or the interior of the target.”
They rely upon kinetic effects to produce the heat effect. If the kinetic effect is blocked by a substance capable of withstanding the atom, to atom smashing (such as a latent AT field), then the heat effect never takes place. Meaning that you must first prove that the weapon is capable of providing enough energy to excite an EVA’s armour to produce heat, and then that the armour can not withstand the heat.
@ Cananatra
That’s quote mining, you want to post the effects of the beam rifle but not the beam saber? Really? How very disingenuous of you.
I’ve already given the quote for the beam saber, though, and they contradict your statement that they work on the same basis as Megaparticle beams. Although to be honest, the same tech specs which released all of the information on mobile suits over the years has suffered a bit from retcon. The energy listed for mobile suit power plants has since been realized to be too low (A zaku shouldn’t even be able to walk with the power plant they give it), so Bandai has stopped providing the energy in their power plants. The acceleration for one year war mobile suits has also been changed with newer releases (such as MS IGLOO, Zakus are now faster than ever before) and sometimes the anime contradicts the stats itself.
Canon is gundam is strange, but you can’t just claim that these things don’t use heat when they’re seen leaking lightning (ya know, Plasma!) when beam sabers clash with each other.
Even if I’m right, the AT Field still stands there having to protect the EVA, thermal or kinetic energy, it doesn’t matter. Beam Sabers have their seen accomplishments, and as far as I can tell will be able to get through the AT Field and hurt the EVA.
For the record, the Gundam can not fly. It can perform very high altitude booster assisted jumps. High enough to duke it out with attack planes. The altitude is unknown, though. “Sleds” are used for atmospheric flight for mobile suits in Gundam until the first flight capable mobile suits are produced. The Byarlant is the first mobile suit capable of sustained flight with out the assistance of a Sled I think..not that Jared seemed to make good use of this feature. For flight, the Gundam docks with external parts to become the G-Armor. A sort of flying tank.
You really don’t seem to get this do you?
Firstly, those quotes are of both the beam sabre and beam rifle. Note the two quotes.
Secondly even if the particles are only used to contain the plasma (if it uses plasma), which i doubt, it has even less chance of piercing the field. This is due to the fact that the particles are weak, intentionally so, to allow the plasma to reach the matter once struck. This means if you tried to slash that through an AT field, all you will do is breach your own containment field on your weapon and any plasma that comes forth with enough power to have a hope of breaching the At field would also incinerate the gundam.
“Canon is gundam is strange, but you can’t just claim that these things don’t use heat when they’re seen leaking lightning (ya know, Plasma!) when beam sabers clash with each other.”
So you are assuming because it has some flashy colours drawn that it uses plasma? Don’t be dense, that’s something you’d have to prove.
Also, why are we working on the premise that all the combatants but the EVA get fully kitted out? Give the EVA some of its guns.
more on the at-field.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfui68QVBxw @ 4.03 tabris raises an at-field that completely blocks light, electromagnetic force and particles. he essentially creates an entirely closed space around him, which can even nullify the effects of one of the four fundamental forces of the universe. throughout that clip we see tabris and the evangelions descending at a controled pace towards terminal dogma, without the use of an elevator-indeed under the alert status we see that terminal dogma is physically seperated from the rest of nerv, so that tabris/unit-02 have to destroy the barriers between them and dogma. this implies that by this point tabris (at least) and unit-01 (as a possibility) have some ability to control the effect of gravitational forces upon them.
later in the video, rei nullifies tabris’ at-field, completely and without his knowledge (@ 5.10 approx).
neither of these are the most powerful expressed manipulations of the at-field. that would go to unit-01 during 3rd impact (end of evangelion), wherein all life on earth is, for want of a better descriptive, turned into irn-bru, via the “instrumentality of man”.
so we have unit-01, whose at-field is such that it can tang everything on a planet, and is expressely more powerful than that of two beings who are able to nullify and ameliorate the effects of two of the fundamental forces of the universe.
if we get technical; based on this the usage of an electromagnetically charged close combat weapon like the beam saber is going to do precisely nothing, because unit-01′s field will nullify such a weapon upon contact.
“Give the EVA some of its guns.”
I would recommend the 209mm Pallet Rifle for 01 if it must have an extra weapon beyond its Prog Knife as that is the weapon that it carried most often when given a weapon (and they did try to give them weapons as often as possible; it just wasn’t possible in every fight or practical in certain battles). Really though its AT Field is its most powerful weapon.
“so we have unit-01, whose at-field is such that it can tang everything on a planet, and is expressely more powerful than that of two beings who are able to nullify and ameliorate the effects of two of the fundamental forces of the universe.”
Um… that wasn’t just 01′s AT Field. That was 01, 05-13, Adam, Lilith, and Giant Naked Rei. Mostly it was G.N.R. though as she was the one controlling it.
Question too. I did read a bit of the manga and I did see the end of the Rebuild episode with the mountain vaporization bit (AWESOME scene, by the way) but I never got into Evangelion heavily.
More so for any possible future debates could the AT field be equated to chi in its most basic form? Just to form some sort of defense against it or possible counter attack.
“Um… that wasn’t just 01′s AT Field. That was 01, 05-13, Adam, Lilith, and Giant Naked Rei. Mostly it was G.N.R. though as she was the one controlling it.”
whilst i get the point you are making, by the time gnr is in the picture third impact is actually already underway. at this point, for all intents unit 01=lilith. seele were using unit 01 in place of lilith for their third impact, not in conjunction rei took center stage because she was quicker off the bat, so far as i can tell. the eva series were more of a control mechanism than anything else; a means for seele to use unit-01 where they were lacking an adam.
gnr and lilith are one and the same.
@CIDE
i dunno…i suppose there are parallels. as i understand it chi is kind of a universal life energy, whereas the AT-field is kind of the manifestation of ones self awareness (the “light of the soul” as tabris calls it). in general terms the strength of ones chi or at-field both stem from the strength of ones self awareness, but in quite different ways; a good example being shinji. he would not by any stretch be considered to have a strong “chi”, but his sense of self, as crippled and self-hating as it is, is exceptionally powerful and enables the use of the at-field.
thats how i see itt anyway.
@ CIDE:
The closest I’ve seen to anything being even somewhat similar to an AT Field was in Code Geass, where *SPOILERS!!!* The Emporer was basically trying to effectively start Third Impact (they didn’t call it that of course, but the end result is the same).*/SPOILERS*
Oh and the Halo Rings, which somehow target sentient beings. In other words they targets self awareness.
Chi, Chakra, and whatever else that is likened to that stuff is as Andrew says (gosh that feels weird. Feels like I’m talking about myself) and that they are a kind of life energy. Life creates it. Makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us, and binds us. Hmm… I seem to be channeling Yoda.
Anyways, compare that to an AT Field which does nothing of that. Okay yeah life does create it, but only because the life in question is sentient. Chi stuff doesn’t require intelligence or sentience while an AT Field does. Also, Chi stuffs don’t require a soul, and an AT Field does.
I don’t seen any significant parallels between an AT Field and life energies such as Chi, Chakra, Ki, or Qi. AT Fields have more in common with the Triforce in my opinion (I’m not suggesting that those two have all that much in common though).
The big deal with AT Fields, and something comparable to them, would be to look for dependence on self awareness, consciousness, and souls: metaphysical stuff that cannot be directly measured. Stuff like Chi is more about organic matter and life: much more physical in comparison, although still largely unquantifiable.
Well, then aside from the obvious (Force, psychic powers, etc) I’m not thinking of anything (Lambda driver being fairly close in my mind) that could offer a valid defense. For future debates that is.
“In fact greater feats for the EVA’s have already been shown. Reread the thread. Try again.”I said showed about 10 mins of feats it’s all that is needed. On from the old and one from the new.
I have see Lancelot in action it wouldn’t be anything,nor gundam for that matter,nor that liger.
The Eva has to much an advantage and you have provided no proof that anything can go though it’s AT shields.
Wow, Cananatra, really? Did you read the quotes you gave? One is on beam rifles, the other is on megaparticles. Neither apply to beam sabers, while I provided a quote from the same wiki on beamsabers which directly says they use plasma.
If the fact that when they clash they leak plasma isn’t enough (and by the way, if it happened, it is canon.), when a beam saber is shot it sprays plasma as well. Kamille used this tactic once.. and oddly screamed “Beam Confuse!” when he did it, too. When the containment sheath was ruptured, a megaparticle beam didn’t go lancing out. It sprayed plasma all over the place.
AT Fields do not magically stop all damage that is not also from AT Field generated attacks. Particle beams have been used to pierce them at long range, the n2 Mine did a number of Sachiel as well. Different angels (and EVA’s) may have differing levels of AT Field strength but they don’t just instantly nullify anything not also generated by AT Fields.
The reason we aren’t giving the EVA it’s guns is because they wouldn’t have any effect. Lancelot would dodge them and the Liger and Gundam would tank them. The only thing that really matters is the AT Field.
@ Andrew
I’m also not really sure Tanging is much of an option here. The only options I recall Shinji had were everyone becomes one being, or everyone goes back to being normal and retaining their individuality, which puts him back where he started. Unless I’m not remembering the movie correctly.
@ Laharl
Perhaps I clicked on the wrong link. What I remember watching was a music video that covered feats lesser than ones people had already given for Unit 01.
You know nothing of Zoids or Gundam if you think they can’t hurt an EVA. I point again to the fairly weak beams from Zeruel or however it’s spelled totally ripping through EVA 01 but somehow not tearing their base apart. Blade Liger’s shields can be ramped up to tank shots that are stronger than what has broken the AT Field. The Gundam’s beam saber has never not vaporized what it touched. Including Gundarium. The stuff others have already conceded the EVA wasn’t strong enough to punch through (although beam rifles are.. so what’s that say about them?), although they’re strong enough to hurt each other. So if we’re going with kinetic energy like Can wants to, then it’s packing more kinetic energy than the strength of an EVA at least..which seems rather unlikely, so, another point in the favor of it using Plasma, even if ultimately it may prove to be the weaker option. I’m more interested in proving the workings of the beam saber than proving the Gundam wins at this point. Do we have footage of an EVA tanking plasma? Was the EVA inside of the shot that took part of a mountain? If it is, then, yes, it probably can be able to tank the beam saber with it’s AT field.
This doesn’t render it immune from the Blade Liger, though. Unless there’s a point in time where the shields when ramped up like that failed to stop something that an AT Field has. The fact of the matter is, there’s an even more powerful version of that attack that Blade Ligers have and apparently don’t need a gravity cannon’s assistance for any longer, and the only thing ever observed to stop it was the Schneider using the exact same technique. So I fail to understand how the EVA is possibly going to harm this opponent either.
“Wow, Cananatra, really? Did you read the quotes you gave? One is on beam rifles, the other is on megaparticles. Neither apply to beam sabers, while I provided a quote from the same wiki on beamsabers which directly says they use plasma.”
You should try actually reading properly. I’ve reposted the quotes below, you will note there are 3 quotes in total. The FIRST quote is about the beam SABER. The SECOND quote is about the beam RIFLE. The THIRD quote is about particle weapons. The first claims that a beam sabre is a modification of beam rifle technology. It goes on to state that the particles form the blade, it nowhere mentions plasma.
“http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/uc/background/glossary_technology.html
Beam Sabre:
“A mobile suit melee weapon first employed by the RX-78 Gundam. The hilt of the beam saber houses an energy capacitor (E-CAP) like that of a beam rifle, whose stored Minovsky particles are released to form a lethal energy blade. The mass-produced RGM-79 GM and MS-14 Gelgoog are also equipped with this weapon, and it becomes a standard feature after the end of the One Year War.”
Beam rifle:
A compact mega particle cannon, comparable to the main guns of a space warship, which can be carried by a mobile suit. The rifle’s energy is supplied by an energy capacitor (E-CAP), rather than the mobile suit’s own reactor, and this energy supply can only be replenished inside a base or carrier vessel. First developed by the Earth Federation Forces, this weapon is used by the RX-78 Gundam and RX-77 Guncannon, and later by the Principality of Zeon’s MS-14 Gelgoog. By the time of the Gryps Conflict, the beam rifle has become standard equipment for all mobile suits.
Particle weapon technology:
“The general idea of particle-beam weaponry is to hit a target object with a stream of accelerated particles moving at near the speed of light and therefore carrying tremendous kinetic energy; the particles transfer their kinetic energy to the atoms in the molecules of the target upon striking, much as a cue ball transfers its energy to the racked balls in billiards, thus exciting the target’s atoms and superheating the target object in a short time, leading to explosion either of the surface layer or the interior of the target.””
“If the fact that when they clash they leak plasma isn’t enough (and by the way, if it happened, it is canon.), when a beam saber is shot it sprays plasma as well. Kamille used this tactic once.. and oddly screamed “Beam Confuse!” when he did it, too. When the containment sheath was ruptured, a megaparticle beam didn’t go lancing out. It sprayed plasma all over the place.”
Then provide some documented evidence that the flashy lights are plasma. You simply seeing something and assuming it is plasma is not a canon feat, you have to PROVE it.
“AT Fields do not magically stop all damage that is not also from AT Field generated attacks. Particle beams have been used to pierce them at long range, the n2 Mine did a number of Sachiel as well. Different angels (and EVA’s) may have differing levels of AT Field strength but they don’t just instantly nullify anything not also generated by AT Fields.”
I never claimed they did, they do however tank a hell of a lot more than the other combatants have been proven to bring to the field.
“The reason we aren’t giving the EVA it’s guns is because they wouldn’t have any effect. Lancelot would dodge them and the Liger and Gundam would tank them. The only thing that really matters is the AT Field.”
Unfounded and unsourced claim.
“Blade Liger’s shields can be ramped up to tank shots that are stronger than what has broken the AT Field.”
Proof?
“The Gundam’s beam saber has never not vaporized what it touched.”
All that says is that it can best the materials in the gundam universe, not that it can pierce EVA armour, EVA flesh or EVA AT field. Nor does it prove that a little hole caused by it would be fatal to an EVA, which has on numerous occasions regenerated entire limbs.
“Including Gundarium. The stuff others have already conceded the EVA wasn’t strong enough to punch through (although beam rifles are.. so what’s that say about them?), although they’re strong enough to hurt each other.”
Others? You mean you. Give us a feat of the tensile or compression strength of the armour and we’ll see what an EVA can do to it.
This debate has resparked my interest in Evangellion anyway. So i’ll go grab EVA feats as I progress through the series (original).
“I’m also not really sure Tanging is much of an option here”
and i am not really sure where you get that i implied that was a legitimate strategy in this fight. i was simply sketching out the at-fields proven abilities. although technically in the movie everyone got tanged, shinji decided people should be able to be individual, and a grand total of one person took shinji up on the offer in the end-asuka,.
cananatra-
“Nor does it prove that a little hole caused by it would be fatal to an EVA, which has on numerous occasions regenerated entire limbs”
unit two has also fully regenerated its head being blown off. which, for a biological contsruct like an evangelion, is usually much more final than it is for a mech like a gundam, where the head is little more than housing for a pair of cannons and some camera’s.
@andrew
Angels, and by extension EVA’s, seem to only be stoppable once their core has been taken out. Everything else if regeneratable, including as you said, its head.
I want to mention that when Zeruel removed 01′s right arm is exactly what I said would happen when an AT Field materializes inside of an object. There is no explosion and a clean cut.
01 was already matching Zeruel’s already proven powerful AT Field by mere fact that it was able to physically touch Zeruel, so 01 could not defend itself with its Field. Also 01 was trying to keep collateral damage to a minimum since it was inside NERV HQ.
“which has on numerous occasions regenerated entire limbs.”
Most of the time that took days. 01 was able to remake an arm in the Zeruel fight (show version) by using the biomass of Zeruel itself, and in the Rebuild fight against Zeruel it makes an AT Field arm. Neither case is 100% regeneration of a biological arm without surplus matter from an outside source. 01 did, however, rebuild one of its eyes within seconds without an outside source so minor damage could fairly easily be regened, but limb removal could be very serious.
“unit two has also fully regenerated its head being blown off.”
Are you talking about after Zeruel and into the Ariel fight? I was under the impression they just reattached the head (it wasn’t totally destroyed till EoE, and 02 didn’t come back from that).
Oh… I just thought of the Ariel fight again… Poor Asuka.
It would seem the main argument against the Eva is a gundam wielding a beam saber, stepping aside the argument about if it could inflict damage, no one seems to have addressed the matter of the small problem, of the gundam attacking something twice it’s size and many times it’s strength with a close combat weapon, because the weapons potency won’t matter, whilst the gundams crushed under the Eva’s foot whilst having it head ripped off.
“Most of the time that took days. 01 was able to remake an arm in the Zeruel fight (show version) by using the biomass of Zeruel itself, and in the Rebuild fight against Zeruel it makes an AT Field arm. Neither case is 100% regeneration of a biological arm without surplus matter from an outside source.”
However for functionality in a match, an AT arm is just as good, if not better, then its own biological arm. It probably wouldnt have much difficulty reattaching its arm either.
Eva 01 has this fight in the bag 100 out of 100 times!!
I’d call it dead even between Eva 01 and Laevatein. Eva because AT field HAX and Laevantein because of Lambda Driver HAX. However, the ARX8 is more reliable than the Evangelion, even though the eva peaks far higher than the Arm Slave. CIS might kick in as Sousuke is a far better pilot than Shinji. Unless 01 goes berzerk, laevantein can just blast the umbilical and activate ECS for five minutes.
The battle between the other three is far more interesting. The Blade Liger, and I assume you mean Van’s BL, has excellent defense and attack. The blades have been known to slice right through virtually any zoid without pause and the shield can resist beam weapons. However, the Liger lacks ranged firepower and turns far too slowly. The gundam would jump over it while the Lancelot would out flank it.
The RX 78 is the second biggest mech in this battle and definitely the oldest. It’s beam sabers and rifle give it incredible close and ranged firepower while the magnetic coating on the joints and the thrusters allows high jumps and fast reactions. The jumps are often enough to grant limited air mobility. However, the RX-78′s defense lets it down. The shield is made of normal armor and get’s destroyed on a regular basis. Luna titanium is tough, but not invincible. If you hit RX-78 hard enough, it takes damage and dies like any other mech.
The Lancelot has a very potent blend of firepower, speed, and defense. It’s agile enough to weave through MG fire to close to melee range. It’s maser vibration swords can cut through most armors with ease. The VARIS railgun has been known to blast through bedrock. The Blaze Luminous shields have never been breached while still powered. It’s only weakness is it’s power filter, which has limited endurance.
“However, the ARX8 is more reliable than the Evangelion…”
how so? generally speaking the evangelion can be relied on to wreck whatever it needs to wreck, plot not withstanding.
” Unless 01 goes berzerk, laevantein can just blast the umbilical and activate ECS for five minutes.”
the most recent unit-01 has an s-2 engine (series) or is already berserk and in full-on cosmic abomination mode (rebuild 2.22-though admittedly it’d also start with a lance of longinus through its chest, which seems to have put it to sleep) giving it a functionally unlimited power source, because in either case it is able to fight for as long as it needs to.
as to shinji and CIS, he wouldnt kill the pilots. doesnt mean he cannot wreck their robots. for example, he shows no qualms about grappling with the jet-alone even whilst misato is aboard it.
I intended to finish watching Full Metal Panic before posting again, but some other projects get in the way.. glad to see Cananatra is still a complete and total factory of fail on every level though.
@ Cananatra
“You should try actually reading properly. I’ve reposted the quotes below, you will note there are 3 quotes in total. The FIRST quote is about the beam SABER. The SECOND quote is about the beam RIFLE. The THIRD quote is about particle weapons. The first claims that a beam sabre is a modification of beam rifle technology. It goes on to state that the particles form the blade, it nowhere mentions plasma.”
Except minovsky particles are not by themselves lethal.. They are used to house plasma. Considering pretty much every gundam anime just about shows lightning (again, plasma) leaking from the blade when it strikes something. The same wiki goes in to further explanation of how the beam saber works. It cites plasma. You are a liar and are looking simply for a way to discredit the gundam. We know it has to be hotter than 4000 degrees celsius. All I’ve asked for is proof that the EVA armor can tank something like that. Otherwise, any attempt to strike the gundam physically will result in that hand or arm getting sliced clean off. Amuro is no stranger to carving up much larger targets. The biggest issue is would the EVA-01 just get back up and regenerate its body parts even after Amuro’s turned Shinji and the plug in to ashes.
The rest of your post pretty much shows you’ve not been really paying attention to the thread while at the same time accusing me of not reading when I’ve told you that you were quote mining and need to look at the rest of the page.
@ Shaun
You’re bigger and stronger than a porcupine. You run up to it and try punching it. Tell me how well that works out. If the beam saber hurts the EVA then anything it tries will result in serious damage for it, while the Gundam’s armor could tank getting stomped on. Remember, it’s taken nukes before. What needs to be watched out for is Shinji just swinging his AT Field about like nobody’s business. There’s also the Gundam’s Super Napalm that no one’s commented on, which is hot enough to have an instant effect on heavy gundanium armor that a beam saber does… No one’s mentioned if the EVA was in the blast that took out part of the mountain and if it was then I concede these two weapons likely won’t have much of an effect…
Then there’s the zoid..
Another issue we need to worry about is we’ve seen the Deathsaurer’s beam will instantly vaporize any zoid it hits and leave deep trenches of molten magma even when the targets are shield ligers with their shields up.. So we have to ask if the EVA can even get through the Blade Liger’s shield when the Death Saurer could not.
Neither the Gundam nor the Liger can fly, only jet jump, or jet dash so I’m assuming they can use these abilities. I don’t know if the Lancelot can use it’s flight abilities to merely enhance it’s movements as opposed to just flying.
Shinji’s lack of actual piloting prowess in the end may be what does him in, when you have an ace here from Geass, a veteran from Zoids.. and of course the original real robot ace himself, Amuro. If it really does end up coming down to how good the pilots are, Amuro wins hands down. Mainly because Shinji ALL THE TIME just stands there like a dope and takes it for a while before he tries to do anything back.. which is why if any of them can bring the EVA down it will go down hard.
I can’t say much for the FMP camp.. outside of the fact that he seems kind of like Heero with a mook suit for the few episodes I’ve seen… I guess I’ll comment on them later.
” Shinji’s lack of actual piloting prowess in the end may be what does him in…Mainly because Shinji ALL THE TIME just stands there like a dope and takes it for a while before he tries to do anything back.”
and ofcourse you are going to back that statement up with proof that shinji’s sole battle-strategy is to get the crap kicked out of himself?
because, you know…you can’t. not without lying.
“So we have to ask if the EVA can even get through the Blade Liger’s shield when the Death Saurer could not.”
which is more powerful? the evangelion or the death saurer? we figure that out and you likely have your answer.
“You’re bigger and stronger than a porcupine. You run up to it and try punching it. Tell me how well that works out. ”
bad analogy is bad.
” If the beam saber hurts the EVA then anything it tries will result in serious damage for it…”
there are two important things in this sentence. one is “if”. youve yet to prove gundam’s weapon can harm the eva. the second part is “then anything it tries will result in serious damage for it…” which is problematic because you are conflating the ability to cause damage to a thing with the ability to cause serious/crippling damage to a thing.
by way of analogy, i present this (which is precisely the argument you just made, simply with different beings involved): chuck norris attacks an untrained 13 year old. if the 13 year old is capable of hurting chuck (the general implication being that it can), then any attack by chuck norris will result in him being seriously injured.
“Remember, it’s taken nukes before.”
hilariously weak ones, if the relevant video is anything to go by. (i mean seriously, lalah is provided sufficient protection by char standing his mech in front of her. her jeep, which is unprotected, is undamaged)
“Except minovsky particles are not by themselves lethal.. They are used to house plasma.”
particles cannot house plasma. because plasma is ionized particles. particles cannot house particles. not in the way you imply anyway.
” We know it has to be hotter than 4000 degrees celsius”
no we dont. we “know” the beam saber uses plasma. we “know” (via wikipedia at least) that plasma generally exists at a temperature of “several thousand degrees”. several being a term used to describe a number between 3 and 7. we dont know what effect your minovsky particles have upon the plasma i.e. how well they conduct heat without entering a plasma state themselves, which would defeat the purpose of the plasma being “housed” in them.
“All I’ve asked for is proof that the EVA armor can tank something like that.”
its been given. you know, those video’s that show an evangelion suffering and surviving attacks for periods of seconds that instantaneously vaporize structures made of hardened concrete, and vaporize entire hills, which are made up of many thousands of tons of soil, bedrock, and whatever else happens to be in the hill. or the evangelion surviving an attack which blasts through all the armour and bedrock protecting the geofront.
or the three evangelion units containing and surviving the explosion of an angel that would have turned tokyo 3 and a considerable part of the kanto into a new bay of the pacific ocean.
“Otherwise, any attempt to strike the gundam physically will result in that hand or arm getting sliced clean off. ”
really? i didnt know the gundam was made of monomolecular unobtanium blades!
“The rest of your post pretty much shows you’ve not been really paying attention to the thread…”
really now? because the rest of his post is (i quote):
““AT Fields do not magically stop all damage that is not also from AT Field generated attacks. Particle beams have been used to pierce them at long range, the n2 Mine did a number of Sachiel as well. Different angels (and EVA’s) may have differing levels of AT Field strength but they don’t just instantly nullify anything not also generated by AT Fields.”
I never claimed they did, they do however tank a hell of a lot more than the other combatants have been proven to bring to the field.
“The reason we aren’t giving the EVA it’s guns is because they wouldn’t have any effect. Lancelot would dodge them and the Liger and Gundam would tank them. The only thing that really matters is the AT Field.”
Unfounded and unsourced claim.
“Blade Liger’s shields can be ramped up to tank shots that are stronger than what has broken the AT Field.”
Proof?
“The Gundam’s beam saber has never not vaporized what it touched.”
All that says is that it can best the materials in the gundam universe, not that it can pierce EVA armour, EVA flesh or EVA AT field. Nor does it prove that a little hole caused by it would be fatal to an EVA, which has on numerous occasions regenerated entire limbs.
“Including Gundarium. The stuff others have already conceded the EVA wasn’t strong enough to punch through (although beam rifles are.. so what’s that say about them?), although they’re strong enough to hurt each other.”
Others? You mean you. Give us a feat of the tensile or compression strength of the armour and we’ll see what an EVA can do to it.
This debate has resparked my interest in Evangellion anyway. So i’ll go grab EVA feats as I progress through the series (original).”
which pretty much seems to be calling you out on making unsourced claims, and claims that concensus has been reached where none has. for example; no one in this thread other than you has accepted that gundanium is impervious to the evangelion. we have simply stated that it doesnt matter if it is or isnt, because the parts of the gundam which arent gundanium, such as the electronics, the weapons, the engine, and, most importantly, THE PILOT, most certainly are not.
I’m a noob when it comes to Code Geass and Full Metal Panic but I’ll say that EVA Unit 1 would totally win because it could turn into it’s angel/god form (I don’t remember what they called it in Evangelion 2.22). Also a Zoid wouldn’t last 10 seconds out there. If it comes down to it, an EVA outranks everyone with it’s impenitrable AT field and arsenal of weapons. So my vote’s on EVA Unit 1
@ Andrew
“and ofcourse you are going to back that statement up with proof that shinji’s sole battle-strategy is to get the crap kicked out of himself?
because, you know…you can’t. not without lying.”
Average episode is EVA gets whooped on for a while and suffers horrible wounds. Then it goes bad ass and wins.
“bad analogy is bad.”
No I think it’s quite good. Go punch something that causes you to suffer wounds when you punch it. See how well that works out for you.
“which is more powerful? the evangelion or the death saurer? we figure that out and you likely have your answer.”
We’d need to find an image of an EVA putting out the same level of fire power.
“there are two important things in this sentence. one is “if”. youve yet to prove gundam’s weapon can harm the eva. the second part is “then anything it tries will result in serious damage for it…” which is problematic because you are conflating the ability to cause damage to a thing with the ability to cause serious/crippling damage to a thing. ”
I’ve shown the levels of damage gundarium can tank. and beam sabers cleave that with no problem. I’ve pointed out to times when the EVA 01 took damage from seemingly not that strong of an attack. Many people try to point out to where these really strong attacks are used and tanked but the problem is attack strength is usually not what they claim it to be, and like the size of the EVA’s, what does and does not hurt an EVA is all over the place.
“by way of analogy, i present this (which is precisely the argument you just made, simply with different beings involved): chuck norris attacks an untrained 13 year old. if the 13 year old is capable of hurting chuck (the general implication being that it can), then any attack by chuck norris will result in him being seriously injured.”
I don’t think you understand the point of the analogy. This is more like David and Goliath than Chuck Norris and a Child.
“hilariously weak ones, if the relevant video is anything to go by. (i mean seriously, lalah is provided sufficient protection by char standing his mech in front of her. her jeep, which is unprotected, is undamaged)”
It was still strong enough to send a boulder far larger than a 60 foot robot flying in to it. You can keep going back to Lalah being protected by the gelgoog but the fact of the matter is that the movie’s animators simply didn’t put in new footage for Lalah when they changed the explosion from the Gyan’s nuclear reactor to a nuclear mine field of far greater strength. Do I like admitting to this laziness on their part? No. But as it’s become apparent that the power displayed in the blast and the power displayed outside of the blast are extremely contradictory, especially now that I’ve done a little nuclear weapon research.. I think it is relevant. How this effects the nukes’ yield is up to the reader of course, but I believe it helps to know that the reaction involving Lalah was not originally animated for the mine field, which was only added in for the movie.
“particles cannot house plasma. because plasma is ionized particles. particles cannot house particles. not in the way you imply anyway.”
Minovsky Particles can. Are you always an idiot? Do you really try to apply real world physics to a giant robot anime’s made up magical particle X that explains all the crazy unrealistic stuff that happens in said giant robot anime?
“no we dont. we “know” the beam saber uses plasma. we “know” (via wikipedia at least) that plasma generally exists at a temperature of “several thousand degrees”. several being a term used to describe a number between 3 and 7. we dont know what effect your minovsky particles have upon the plasma i.e. how well they conduct heat without entering a plasma state themselves, which would defeat the purpose of the plasma being “housed” in them.”
Ok, it’s settled. You are a god damn moron. We know it’s hotter than 4,000 because it melts gundarium, and gundarium has tanked 4,000 degrees with NO visible damage. It wasn’t even turning red or anything during the Adzam’s attack.
“its been given. you know, those video’s that show an evangelion suffering and surviving attacks for periods of seconds that instantaneously vaporize structures made of hardened concrete, and vaporize entire hills, which are made up of many thousands of tons of soil, bedrock, and whatever else happens to be in the hill. or the evangelion surviving an attack which blasts through all the armour and bedrock protecting the geofront.”
No EVA ever tanked an attack that blasted through all the armor and bedrock. It used that attack to get down in there and then later used a fairly small and puny beam to hurt the EVA which didn’t even cause any explosions or damage to the base or anything. Never was an attack wiping out half a mountain tanked either. The best I’ve seen is that the characters were BY it.
“really? i didnt know the gundam was made of monomolecular unobtanium blades! ”
It’s not but it’s made of something stronger than the EVA’s Armor =)
“which pretty much seems to be calling you out on making unsourced claims, and claims that concensus has been reached where none has. for example; no one in this thread other than you has accepted that gundanium is impervious to the evangelion. we have simply stated that it doesnt matter if it is or isnt, because the parts of the gundam which arent gundanium, such as the electronics, the weapons, the engine, and, most importantly, THE PILOT, most certainly are not.”
1. You kind of need to provide proof of them tanking things stronger than other stuff we’ve seen in Zoids or Gundam. I need to see proof of EVA Armor tanking far greater than 4,000+ Centigrade degrees worth of heat. We need to see one attacking with such force that it causes greater destruction than the Death Saurer’s been witnessed to do. That’s pretty much all I’m asking for.
2. I’m sorry, is it firing a mega particle beam? Then yes, the gun can hurt a Gundam. And No, it can’t get through the shield liger’s shields. We’ve seen it tank the Death Saurer. The weapons still don’t matter. Please kindly shut up about this now.
and 3. I’ve never argued that Amuro would survive a direct punch when taking that in to consideration, if I recall. My argument is he’ll side-boost and chop off the limb. There’s nothing Shinji can do that Amuro won’t see coming.
Anything else you’d like to cover? Or do you still want to ignore that boulder in the nuke? Or the Gundam’s beam saber being ridiculously hot? I’ve given all I want to be provided to concede, and the best I’ve been given in return of “THERES NO WAY GUNDAM CAN BE STRONG ENOUGH IF I BITCH AND WHINE AND IGNORE THE PARTS I DONT LIKE!” Well.. not quite so Halo-fanboyish but pretty damned close.
“It was still strong enough to send a boulder far larger than a 60 foot robot flying in to it. You can keep going back to Lalah being protected by the gelgoog but the fact of the matter is that the movie’s animators simply didn’t put in new footage for Lalah when they changed the explosion from the Gyan’s nuclear reactor to a nuclear mine field of far greater strength.”
They are in space. There is no gravity there. Nothing has any weight! They only have apperent weight due to inertia. In that kind of situation all you have to do to make something weightless is remove it from the ground. From there it is an easy matter “to send things flying” because they have no means to stop themselves… ever.
This, along with the known size of the local area, means that the nuke, regardless of its source, is significantly less than 1 kiloton in yeild. There is NO OTHER WAY TO INTERPRET THIS CORRECTLY.
“They are in space. There is no gravity there. Nothing has any weight! They only have apperent weight due to inertia. In that kind of situation all you have to do to make something weightless is remove it from the ground. From there it is an easy matter “to send things flying” because they have no means to stop themselves… ever.”
There is weight in a colony along the walls strong enough to simulate Earth. I’m afraid you’ll have to explain why the explosion was great enough to move the boulder better than that. If for no one else’s benefit than my own. As either you’re wrong, or I don’t understand, and if I don’t understand I’d at least like to be able to.
“This, along with the known size of the local area, means that the nuke, regardless of its source, is significantly less than 1 kiloton in yeild. There is NO OTHER WAY TO INTERPRET THIS CORRECTLY. ”
And I didn’t argue it in my last post. Only explained why a possible lower end extreme like that can be calculated. Your boulder bit however doesn’t pass.
“Average episode is EVA gets whooped on for a while and suffers horrible wounds. Then it goes bad ass and wins.”
because that is definitely what happens in the “average” evangelion episode, because there is an “average” evangelion episode. yeah.
“No I think it’s quite good. Go punch something that causes you to suffer wounds when you punch it. See how well that works out for you.”
ah but here is the thing. you are assuming the evangelion would be wounded simply through punching it.
“We’d need to find an image of an EVA putting out the same level of fire power.”
well, you’d have to provide an instance of the death saurer doing something equivalent to any of the angel or evangelion based beam attacks first.
“I’ve shown the levels of damage gundarium can tank….”
the thing is youve not shown that the beam saber can penetrate the at-field. the properties of an actualised metaphysical force field with a functionally infinite fuel source are different to those of a metal.
“Minovsky Particles can. Are you always an idiot?…”
well, first you are going to explain the science behind how minovsky particles are different from any other particle in existence, because you saying “they can” isnt in any way shape or form proof. and then you are going to explain why you think ad-hominem attacks somehow support your point rather than weaken it, through the means of making you look a fool.
“Ok, it’s settled. You are a god damn moron. We know it’s hotter than 4,000 because it melts gundarium, and gundarium has tanked 4,000 degrees with NO visible damage. It wasn’t even turning red or anything during the Adzam’s attack. ”
ofcourse, you will give the instance where gundanium is unaffected by 4000 degrees of whatever, because googling the adzam gives me no indication of the power of its attacks…also you are going to explain how any given material will react in the exact same fashion to any form of stress, be it resulting from heating, crushing pressure, or kinetic force. because then i can point out just something having a high melting point means precisely jack shit. for example, steel can be stoved in by a human fist in small enough quantities, and more easily by an iron or steel hammer, but it would take upwards of 1300 degrees celsius to melt it. either path destroys the steel as a useful object, but they take very different approaches and use very different forces.
“No EVA ever tanked an attack that blasted through all the armor and bedrock.”
eva 01 versus ramiel, episode 4/rebuild 1. survives close range attack from ramiel for several seconds, the particle beam in question having instantly vaporized 3 or 4 buildings and a shield to reach unit 01 in rebuild
eva 00 versus ramiel, episode 5/rebuild 1. blocked the particle beam attack of ramiel after its shield being destroyed for long enough for shinji to make the kill shot. in rebuild, this particle beam is precisely the one that vaporises a hill.
eva 01 versus zeruel, episode 19/rebuild 2. blasted both in the arm and chest by zeruels beams, and did not lose combat effectiveness
eva 02 versus zeruel, rebuild 2. despite being struck by such attack repeatedly, it was still effective enough in combat to aid unit 00 against zeruel by eating zeruel’s at-field.
“1. You kind of need to provide proof of them tanking things stronger than other stuff we’ve seen in Zoids or Gundam.”
no, you need to prove that the stuff from zoids and gundam equals the stuff from evangelion, which you havent done yet. youve stated as much repeatedly, but havent anything to back it up (the video’s dont back it up to be frank)
“2. I’m sorry, is it firing a mega particle beam? Then yes, the gun can hurt a Gundam. And No, it can’t get through the shield liger’s shields. We’ve seen it tank the Death Saurer. The weapons still don’t matter. Please kindly shut up about this now.”
i am not sure what this quote refers to, since it seems to have little to do with your quotation of my post that precedes it.
“My argument is he’ll side-boost and chop off the limb. There’s nothing Shinji can do that Amuro won’t see coming.”
well then you would have to do something to back that argument up, like, i dunno, definitively prove the gundam is faster in ground combat, that the blade is able to defeat the at field and the armour of unit 01, that this would negatively effect unit 01′s combat prowess, and that amuro’s and the gundam’s psi-abilities are any more applicable to the fight than shinji’s/unit 01′s.
ignoring the ad-hom at the end.
anyway:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtjJe4elifI
do any of the other mecha demonstrate the strength to lift many thousands of tonnes of matter under earth gravity and weaponise it? (1.29-before you argue warships of that size would typically weigh around 3-12 thousand tonnes, dependent upon class. it looks like a light cruiser to me, and based off that classification it could fall anywhere in that range in historical terms.) do they display reaction times sufficient to not only dodge and block but punch missiles out of the sky at short range?(1.44-2.20) do they demonstrate the ability to defend against metaphysical assaults powered by souls, or the ability to attack enemies in the same same? (repeatedly throughout the series, movies and rebuild. two examples of attacks are provided in the first post here: forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=445741)
as to lalah and the nuke, originalA describes my point of view quite well, i dont think i need to repeat him.
“eva 02 versus zeruel, rebuild 2. despite being struck by such attack repeatedly, it was still effective enough in combat to aid unit 00 against zeruel by eating zeruel’s at-field.”
yeah, ignore most of that sentence, i was too busy smugposting to notice what i had written.
“ah but here is the thing. you are assuming the evangelion would be wounded simply through punching it.”
The shield liger’s shields hurt everything that touched them. Blade Liger’s too. Blade Liger tanked stuff that instantly vaporizes entire swaths of zoids and left deep gouges of magma where said stuff had swept. So I think punching Blade Liger would probably be a really bad idea for the EVA.
“well, you’d have to provide an instance of the death saurer doing something equivalent to any of the angel or evangelion based beam attacks first.”
Already provided a video of it whooping stuff with the charged particle gun.
“survives close range attack from ramiel for several seconds, the particle beam in question having instantly vaporized 3 or 4 buildings and a shield to reach unit 01″
Funny how it wasn’t delivering enough energy to turn the ground to magma or anything though, huh?
“blocked the particle beam attack of ramiel after its shield being destroyed for long enough for shinji to make the kill shot. in rebuild, this particle beam is precisely the one that vaporises a hill.”
Was this in any of the given links that I may have missed?
“well, first you are going to explain the science behind how minovsky particles are different from any other particle in existence, because you saying “they can” isnt in any way shape or form proof. and then you are going to explain why you think ad-hominem attacks somehow support your point rather than weaken it, through the means of making you look a fool.”
Minovsky Particles are simply stated to be able to. You were being an idiot when you tried to apply real world physics to them. I was simply pointing that out to make you realize how foolish it is to try and do what you were doing. Minovsky Particles are used for all kinds of stuff, including creating “cushions” for anti-gravity flight like with what the White Base does. They naturally form a lattice which severely hampers anything along the EM spectrum trying to pass through. They basically do whatever wonky crap the writers want them to in order for said crap to sound like it’s following some set of rules.
“no, you need to prove that the stuff from zoids and gundam equals the stuff from evangelion, which you havent done yet. youve stated as much repeatedly, but havent anything to back it up (the video’s dont back it up to be frank)”
No, you just don’t accept the videos. They provide proof that the Death Saurer is able to deliver EVA levels of whoop ass and that the Blade Liger tanks it. The Gundam videos do a damn good job on their own of showing how durable a gundam is, and that a beam saber must thusly be stronger than such. We haven’t seen any evidence of the EVA’s in this debate proving they can tank that kind of heat! When I say I want proof that the EVA can tank a beam saber, I mean I want to know if it can take well over 4,000 degrees centigrade. If we have nothing showing that it can, then we have no reason to believe than it can not. I’ve already given the best evidence available and the only response I’m being given is “you need to provide proof”.. how’s about instead of being evasive we’re given an exact moment I can use to go “Ok, yeah, it can tank it.” Similarly, we’ve seen the Blade Liger dive through the Death Saurer, which tanked everything everyone else had shot at it, and it dove through the charged particle gun’s ray too. This seems to heavily imply that it could probably hurt the EVA with such an attack if Van can manage to pull it off.
“do they display reaction times sufficient to not only dodge and block but punch missiles out of the sky at short range?(1.44-2.20) do they demonstrate the ability to defend against metaphysical assaults powered by souls, or the ability to attack enemies in the same same? (repeatedly throughout the series, movies and rebuild. ”
I get the feeling you don’t watch much Gundam. So I’m just going to say yes. It is not uncommon for missiles to actually be shot out of the sky, or for psychic attacks to be used. There have been instances of spiritual assaults and the like. There’s a lot of wierd paranormal crap going on in UC. There’s a point that an asteroid is stopped through sheer human will power alone. There’s another point where a beam is shot down with another beam. It just gets ridiculous sometimes with their psychics. I would suggest that if you can sit through Gundam (and I know you can if you can stomach Evangelion) then you should follow up with Zeta Gundam.
“as to lalah and the nuke, originalA describes my point of view quite well, i dont think i need to repeat him.”
I’d still like an explanation concerning the boulder.. I believe you still need energy to move mass..
Considering that none of the combatants are allowed to fly I would bet on the Blade Lyger because currently it is an upgraded Shield Lyger. That gives it speed, defense, shields, and blades. With the organoid Zeke attached to it the Blade Lyger gains regeneration. Van is your stereotypical skilled, talented, and eventually trained pilot.
Good luck convincing anyone in this debate that its shield can tank more than potato chips.
FYI: The only mech here that can fly is the Lancelot, to my knowledge. ARX-8 might be able to.. still haven’t forced myself to sit through full metal panic all the way, yet. Nice as the mechs are I shouldn’t have to sit through like five fucking episodes of high school hijinks with fail heero being an idiot the whole way through just to see some giant robot action. Especially when I’m forced to endure it AFTER a really interesting introduction. The rest of the mechs here simply jump, sometimes with boosters assisting them, but it’s still not flying. Gundam can just VERY high with the boosters..but the first mobile suit capable of actual independent flight won’t be around for a good 8 years in Gundam.
Van’s also not the best pilot in this match. The best is, with out any doubt at all, Amuro. Followed by Suzaku probably. Then I’d say it’s Van but I don’t even know who pilots the ARX-8 but he’d have to do some crazy stuff to trump the original ace of aces and this Suzaki fellow as well. At the end of the pack is Shinji.. who’s just a shit pilot.
His trump card is the tang.. which in the one cross over in which this was pulled that involved Amuro, he and the rest of the heroes actually resisted it.
So Amuro seems to take this. Still.
He’ll know what Van’s about to do, and the megaparticle gun is likely to shred the Blade Liger if it hits while the shield isn’t up.
@Sauro
Amuro may be the best pilot, but the RX-78 is just way too outclassed to win. Lancelot is just too fast and hits too hard. By the time Amuro can swing his beam rifle around to react to his precognition, Lancelot has popped of a dozen VARIS rounds. The RX-78 was already straining from Amuro’s speed, it has no chance of winning.
Sousuke Sagara has been a soldier since childhood and specializes in Arm Slave use. As such, he’s an ace pilot even without his ARX-8. The ARX-8, much like the ARX-7 Arbalest is equipped with a lambda driver which essentially allows the pilot to apply inertia in any way he wishes. For example, he can deflect bullets with it, lighten the apparent weight of his AS, and has managed to punch through a friendly AS to destroy the foe behind it. Sagara has also shown to be able to apply this effect to bullets, increasing their effectiveness and allowing them to punch through lambda driver applied shields.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWeEOBif0Mc&feature=sh_e_se&list=SL
From 13:00 onwards. Please note this is actually the ARX-7. The ARX-8 is an upgraded version with greater firepower.
@Conlan
The blade liger was able to tank charged particles not because it had superior defenses, but because of an odd interaction between charged particles and the liger’s blades. Furthermore, the shield only protects the front of the liger and Van has a tendency to charge his opponents.
Exactly how come a god-tier giant robot along the lines of the Ideon isn’t included in this match?
Is it for the same kind of reasoning why adding Megas XLR and Gurren Lagann’s a terrible idea?
Sosuke Sagara should be in a factpile fight with his Arm Slave, actually.
Anyone from MechQuest worth recommending?
But who would be piloting the ARX-8?
Since this is a mecha match-up all pilots are of equal skill and can use the machines to their fullest extent.
I think it should be known that RG-78 Gundam was not…..that great.
It’s armor was it’s only real redeeming feature. It could take a beating from shell weapons used by Zeon suits at the time and its performance wasn’t exactly leaving Zakus in the dust. In fact as far as mobility and reaction time goes, the Zeon Gouf was on the same level.
Coming from a former Gundam fanboy, I’m pretty sure the Gundam will be the first down.
“Amuro may be the best pilot, but the RX-78 is just way too outclassed to win.”
-
The stupid.. it hurts..
-
“The RX-78 was already straining from Amuro’s speed, it has no chance of winning.”
-
It was upgraded to be able to keep up. Here’s your sign.
-
“I think it should be known that RG-78 Gundam was not…..that great.
It’s armor was it’s only real redeeming feature. It could take a beating from shell weapons used by Zeon suits at the time and its performance wasn’t exactly leaving Zakus in the dust. In fact as far as mobility and reaction time goes, the Zeon Gouf was on the same level.
Coming from a former Gundam fanboy, I’m pretty sure the Gundam will be the first down.”
-
Gundam fanboy calling it a RG-78.. Yeah.. you lose.
-
So what we have is a Gundam pilot who, in the only cross over where Gundam and Evangelion have met, was far and away the better pilot. In a Gundam which can tank nuclear weapons and has a plasma blade and megaparticle rifle able to deliver more energy than sustained 4000c+ saturation was able to against the EVA 01, who has never shown to be able to tank plasma, and is being piloted by a kid who is in no way able to keep up with Amuro. The second best opponent is the knightmare frame.. which lacks the fire power to harm the RX-78-2, and lacks a pilot capable of matching Amuro as well. This match is -still- ridiculous. Amuro takes this.
I’m amazed at how much EVA get down-played here, while some other community wank him too much.
—
As said in the other EVA vs DeathScythe the Hell topic. EVA AT-field deal with nuke level damage or more on a regular basis (N-2 mines/missiles are the equivalent of ‘clean’ nukes, same damage with no radiation, and they are totally useless vs high level Angel and veteran EVAs).
—
The sole reason AT-field don’t always show up whenever an EVA get hit is because EVAs fight Angels, monsters that also has battle-grade AT-field, which can negate the EVA’s own. If their AT-field is not enough to even slow down an Angel’s attack, AT-field does not manifest in the visible spectrum. It’s always there, however, being the barrier of the souls. Without AT-field, everything organic will melt into LCL like what happened in EOE.
—
Now, in original series, we have Nerv EVA 01′s ‘rescue operation’, which is essentially dropping enough N-2 to devastate a country on its head, and it’s said that while the pilot will die, that’s not because of shock or heat, but life support-system failing, the mech itself will not be heavily damage.
—
Also in same original series, Eva 01 stopped the descent of a giant Angel from orbit with its field, despite said drop was supposed to be enough to destroy Geo Front.
—
Now on to the brand new Reboot, Rebuild of Evangelion:
No heat resistance you said?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l9s9bdhuRs&feature=related
EVA 01 tanked Ramiel’s beam, which was later shown to be able to insta-melt a mountain. They did not expect Ramiel to be able to attack that far, Shinji didn’t see the beam and the At-field still appeared.
In their rematch, Ramiel countered after the first positron beam couldn’t destroy it, and Eva 01 was relative unharmed.
—
Onto Sahaquiel fight
www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-lEHqsIMa8
This Angel tank N-2 mine the defense Satellites threw its way like nobody business, then it was estimated that upon Impact, it will cause a blast 420 000 meters wide and 15000 meters deep. That’s 420 kilometer, and 15 kilometer respectively.
Eva 01 tanked this with its AT-field, and was only damaged because the Angel was eroding its AT-field and piercing its arm.
Yes, Eva 01 can tank frigging Colony Drop if it wanted.
—
Then come Zeruel
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvI1nUCKpvU
Just like all other Angel, this guy shrugged off waves after waves of N-2 missiles on its way to Tokyo 3.
Then EVA 02 take down all its AT-field with Beast mode (essentially controlled Berserk mode), while Eva 00 AT-field drill a N-2 missile into its bio mass and detonate said missile.
00, even without its AT-field (since it used it to create the drill, only get a bit burned.
Zeruel, on the other hand, was not even singed.
It then process to absorb 00 and get stronger.
Then Shinji return, and introduce to us Awaken mode
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwSm9uVauyo
And Holyshit BBQ, his eye laser punched through Zeruel’s AT field and bio mass in one go.
Then he soul fucked a frigging angel and drag Rei out of its core.
And go on to destroy the world.
—
Saying a low-tier Gundam like RX 78-2 can do anything to EVA other than look on in despair is wrong.
New Type prediction does not matter, armor does not matter. All Eva 01 has to do is jump high, extend its AT field to max and do what Sahaquiel did, let its AT-field crush Gundam underneath.
Once again. Eva stomps.
“As said in the other EVA vs DeathScythe the Hell topic. EVA AT-field deal with nuke level damage or more on a regular basis (N-2 mines/missiles are the equivalent of ‘clean’ nukes, same damage with no radiation, and they are totally useless vs high level Angel and veteran EVAs).”
-
They don’t nuke the EVA’s on a regular basis. They’ve used nukes before, and it broke through the AT-Field. The best method of dealing with AT-Fields is to not let them use them. Shinji’s AT-Field wildly alters in power as it is, usually requiring him to be in berserk state to be able to over whelm an opponent’s.
-
“Saying a low-tier Gundam like RX 78-2 can do anything to EVA other than look on in despair is wrong.”
-
You have failed to really provide anything new.. the EVA’s were barely able to touch the Gundams in SRW, and this Gundam has one of the top gundam pilots in history controlling it, and Shinji was a vastly better pilot in SRW. What you’ve done is shown a relatively weak attack hurting the EVA 01 from Zeruel.
-
“New Type prediction does not matter, armor does not matter. All Eva 01 has to do is jump high, extend its AT field to max and do what Sahaquiel did, let its AT-field crush Gundam underneath.”
-
The AT Field has never shown enough physical force to even dent Gundarium. As soon as Shinji tries punching Amuro, he’s getting his hand cut off. Amuro has taken on exceeding stronger, faster, better armored, and better armed opponents before, and always come out on top, including the Big Zam and Alpha Azieru, both of which would put the EVA 01 on it’s ass. There’s no reason to think an inferior pilot in something which isn’t on par with enemies he’s brought down before will be of any use against him.
Beyond this.. Amuro CAN block the mental abilities of enemies.. what’s stopping him from messing with Shinji’s projection of the AT Field? He’s completely negated Char’s newtype abilities, blocking him from being able to use the usual newtype abilities.
xxxx
They don’t nuke the EVA’s on a regular basis. They’ve used nukes before, and it broke through the AT-Field. The best method of dealing with AT-Fields is to not let them use them. Shinji’s AT-Field wildly alters in power as it is, usually requiring him to be in berserk state to be able to over whelm an opponent’s.
xxx
They broke the AT-field of the Third Angel, which is a weakling compare to the rest of them and the EVA once their pilots gained better control.
Watch those video, said ‘nukes’ were being thrown around like candy, and later Angels didn’t even notice em.
—
xxx
He was not Berserk in the Sahaquiel fight
He was not Berserk in the Ramiel fight
The only time he went Berserk in Rebuild up till now is against the Third Angel.
xxx
—
xxx
You have failed to really provide anything new.. the EVA’s were barely able to touch the Gundams in SRW, and this Gundam has one of the top gundam pilots in history controlling it, and Shinji was a vastly better pilot in SRW. What you’ve done is shown a relatively weak attack hurting the EVA 01 from Zeruel.
xxx
Again, SRW is only canon to itself, and game play is not canon even to SRW.
Only scripted encounter count.
Otherwise, Hi-Nu can dodge better than a FTL Shin-Getter or Nirvash, as well as can one-shot Space Monster that hatched out of Suns with its beam rifle.
—
xxx
What you’ve done is shown a relatively weak attack hurting the EVA 01 from Zeruel.
xxx
Said “weak attack” not only has an AT-field (being Angel’s attack) which can overwhelm an AT-field that tanked what amount to a Country-bursting Colony Drop, but also sliced off EVA’s bio mass, which have proved to be able to survive N-2 detonation without AT-field.
—
xxx
The AT Field has never shown enough physical force to even dent Gundarium.
xxx
A field that can stop a colony drop, unable to damage Lunar Titanium alloy which get damaged by sustained canon fire?
You will need to show me a Gundam tanking a colony drop or Genesis to make this claim legit.
—
xxx
Amuro has taken on exceeding stronger, faster, better armored, and better armed opponents before, and always come out on top, including the Big Zam and Alpha Azieru, both of which would put the EVA 01 on it’s ass. There’s no reason to think an inferior pilot in something which isn’t on par with enemies he’s brought down before will be of any use against him.
xxx
Proof that Big Zam or Alpha Azieru can tank a colony drop that cause a 420 km wide and 15 km deep explosion, has a cannon that insta-melt mountain?
Nope, there’s none.
On the contrary, Shinji did all those, without Berserk.
—
Let me re-phase it:
Big Zam and Alpha Azieru look cool, took down a lot of mook, shot down a lot of ship that can be down by bazooka.
EVA tank Colony Drop, shrug off nuke and mountain melting beam, without going Berserk or Awaken, can cause global-wide destruction by going Awaken, and unlike Berserk mode, Shinji can actively enter Awaken mode and control it.
We go by what characters have been shown to be able to do, we don’t go by intimidating factor.
—-
xxxx
Beyond this.. Amuro CAN block the mental abilities of enemies.. what’s stopping him from messing with Shinji’s projection of the AT Field? He’s completely negated Char’s newtype abilities, blocking him from being able to use the usual newtype abilities
xxx
AT-field is the barrier of the mind and soul.
He can mindfuck Shinji outside EVA may be? But once inside, show me proof of Amuro penetrating that kind of mental defense.
If there is no feat, you cannot say he can do that, and for discussing purpose, it’s the same as he’s not able to.
Now show me feat of Amuro resisting a soul-fuck on the scale Shinji pulled against Zeruel, an Angel who mind and soul was powerful enough to generate AT-field unassisted, an AT-field that shrug off nuke.
BTW, pardon the grammar mistakes. I’m too used to having an edit function at hand.
“He was not Berserk in the Sahaquiel fight
He was not Berserk in the Ramiel fight
The only time he went Berserk in Rebuild up till now is against the Third Angel.”
-
I didn’t watch rebuild. Just going off of the original show and movies.
-
“Again, SRW is only canon to itself, and game play is not canon even to SRW.
Only scripted encounter count.
Otherwise, Hi-Nu can dodge better than a FTL Shin-Getter or Nirvash, as well as can one-shot Space Monster that hatched out of Suns with its beam rifle.”
-
I don’t consider game stats to be highly indicative, but it does roughly reflect some of their abilities. The EVA’s were never a match for a Gundam even though they could kill a gundam, the likelihood was very low unless you were doing something wrong. The story suggests that the EVA’s failed to kill any of them though, if I recall, although it’s been a while.
-
“Said “weak attack” not only has an AT-field (being Angel’s attack) which can overwhelm an AT-field that tanked what amount to a Country-bursting Colony Drop, but also sliced off EVA’s bio mass, which have proved to be able to survive N-2 detonation without AT-field.”
-
The attack failed to really cause any environment destruction. The EVA’s always take crazy damage in their fights even from physical blows which lack the mass or velocity to match country-busting. If they fail to raise their AT Field in time then the attack lands.
-
“Proof that Big Zam or Alpha Azieru can tank a colony drop that cause a 420 km wide and 15 km deep explosion, has a cannon that insta-melt mountain?
Nope, there’s none.
On the contrary, Shinji did all those, without Berserk.”
-
The EVA 01 can’t do that with out raising the AT Field or it’s PIS, it’s abilities are all over the place, kind of like it’s size. It’s as bad as the original transformers show sometimes.
-
“Proof that Big Zam or Alpha Azieru can tank a colony drop that cause a 420 km wide and 15 km deep explosion, has a cannon that insta-melt mountain?
Nope, there’s none.
On the contrary, Shinji did all those, without Berserk.”
-
All the giant beam gun weapons in Gundam are capable of monumental damage, carving through rock like a hot knife through butter. Even the large rifles for the mobile suits would rip through asteroids 20+ meters in size. Big Zam and Apsalus were designed to assault Jaburo, meaning they hit as hard as Zeruel’s enormous beam that ripped through NERV’s defenses. Alpha Azieru was the most powerful mobile armor ever built at it’s time, combining the strengths of all mobile armors that came before it.
-
“He can mindfuck Shinji outside EVA may be? But once inside, show me proof of Amuro penetrating that kind of mental defense.”
-
Shinji’s mind is so broken it’s ripe for a newtype to get in their to mess with. That’s all Scirocco did was play with fragile minds. Amuro messed with the likes of Char. Amuro is NOT getting soul fucked, hell, again, SRW, Shinji didn’t soul fuck ANY of the Alpha Numbers. They took him down with out any issue at all, and, again, that version of Shinji was superior to the anime version.
-
I like how the one time EVA and Gundam actually crossed over, people want to completely dismiss it because it isn’t part of their core canon, even though it’s the only officially endorsed occasion we’ve had where the two franchises encountered each other.
“BTW, pardon the grammar mistakes. I’m too used to having an edit function at hand.”
-
Oh I fuck up all the time. Don’t sweat it.
SRW Kira Yamato >>>…>>>(the dots are for the extra thousand ‘>’s to take place) Anime!-Kira Yamato, for instance, right?
I’d like to point out we usually don’t factor pilots or crews in mecha battles…
“I’d like to point out we usually don’t factor pilots or crews in mecha battles…”
-
When using character specific mecha I see no reason to not consider them. Otherwise the EVA would be useless. You can just have “generic joe” as the pilot.
xxx
I didn’t watch rebuild. Just going off of the original show and movies.
xxx
Even in the original, even though he went Berserk against Zeruel, he still tanked Ramiel’s beam and Sahaquiel without going Berserk.
Even if we don’t use Rebuild feat, that mean he can still tank sustain heat that melt metal bulk head in a matter of seconds and stop small-scale (compare to Rebuild only, it’s still enough to wipe out entire base, think colony destroying level) meteor drop.
—
xxx
I don’t consider game stats to be highly indicative, but it does roughly reflect some of their abilities. The EVA’s were never a match for a Gundam even though they could kill a gundam, the likelihood was very low unless you were doing something wrong. The story suggests that the EVA’s failed to kill any of them though, if I recall, although it’s been a while.
xxx
No, the stat is totally wrong
Take Gun Buster mook vs Gundam for example.
They are Space Monster who hatch out of stars (as in, heat is not an issue they have to worry about), can flight at sub-light to FTL speed, and will absolutely decimate anything from Gundam.
In game play, any Gundam worth his salt can one-shot these guys.
—
In SRW, Gundam hanging out with stronger mechs can be justified as they did a lot of tech trading, but canon Gundam cannot receive this benefit.
Even with this justification though, game-play is still wrong.
Let take an OG example:
R-1 is an extremely durable mech in plot, an Anxion Buster from R-Gun Rivale can only damage its armor and even Magnum Break from Rapiecage cannot take down its R-Wing form.
However, in game play, it can get taken down by any attack a little too strong.
I can recall tons of other example off the top of my head, but that would be too long.
—
The story never had any Gundam vs Eva confrontation. The closest things I can think of is EOE stage in Alpha 3 and intermission talk.
In EOE stage, it took the entire Alpha Number to win.
In the intermission, Shinji was called out on his angsty nature by the Gundam cast though, and later he himself told Kira to stop being a whim.
—
xxx
The attack failed to really cause any environment destruction. The EVA’s always take crazy damage in their fights even from physical blows which lack the mass or velocity to match country-busting. If they fail to raise their AT Field in time then the attack lands.
xxx
Because said attack did not touch the environment and it’s a cutting attack. AOE =/= power behind it.
As show in Ramiel case, AT-field auto activate even when the pilot does not notice the threat. It just that using a full power field or manipulate it (drill, throw, etc) require active concentration.
In case of AT-field canceling each other, if one AT-field is so overwhelming, it can actually erode the other without manifesting in the visible spectrum (the hexagon). This is reflected in SRW animation too, as when you attack ANgel with Eva, AT field never show up. That’s why some attacks seem to connect without anything stopping them, while some encounter a hexagon.
xxx
All the giant beam gun weapons in Gundam are capable of monumental damage, carving through rock like a hot knife through butter. Even the large rifles for the mobile suits would rip through asteroids 20+ meters in size. Big Zam and Apsalus were designed to assault Jaburo, meaning they hit as hard as Zeruel’s enormous beam that ripped through NERV’s defenses. Alpha Azieru was the most powerful mobile armor ever built at it’s time, combining the strengths of all mobile armors that came before it.
xxx
They can destroy city block and melt though a metal mass the size of a ship, yes.
Some MA can even blow off the top of a mountain.
They still cannot instantly melt mountain.
But you didn’t watch Rebuild…
So
Look at N-2 that was used against Sachiel in original series. It’s a clean nuke, and was show to be able to melt the area where it was used into magma, so we can’t discount its heat either.
All it did was slightly damage Sachiel’s face.
Sachiel is easily the weakest Angel. It was only a threat and managed to make EVA 01 Berserk because that was the first time Shinji pilot, he couldn’t even walk.
Later, EVA 01 can match AT vs AT against the like of Sahaquiel even before it get the S-2 Engine.
Then there’s the ‘rescue’ plan I keep mentioning.
—-
Now, RX-78-2 can own Big Zam (not Alpha Neuziel, since, you know, SRW =/= canon) because they fought in space, it was not constrained to 2 dimensions movement, and it was faster, despite having far weaker weaponry, allowing it to strike the Big Zam’s weak point.
This match, from the line up, seem to take place on Earth. And RX 78-2 cannot fly on Earth.
EVA is not slow like Big Zam, it’s fast, not Gundam-in-space level fast, but still as fast as any MS operating on ground without flight capability; its AT field can tank whatever RX-78-2 can throw its ways with no weak point to exploit, and it can stay activated indefinitely with S2 Engine. LCL provide the pilot with any necessary nutrition allow longer lasting power too.
So, how would RX-78-2 defeat it?
With Amuro’s precog, he can stay out of the way. But he has virtually no way to hurt EVA 01.
And the moment he can actually become a credible thread… Berserk EVA.
The best he can settle for is a draw.
—
xxx
Shinji’s mind is so broken it’s ripe for a newtype to get in their to mess with. That’s all Scirocco did was play with fragile minds. Amuro messed with the likes of Char. Amuro is NOT getting soul fucked, hell, again, SRW, Shinji didn’t soul fuck ANY of the Alpha Numbers
xxx
That’s because I was talking about Rebuild Shinji.
Original Shinji only soul fucked when he was given control of Instrumentality.
Again, whatever happen in SRW is not canon to the original series. And no, Rebuild Shinji is even more powerful than Alpha Shinji. Alpha Shinji only go from meek to slightly determining, Rebuild Shinji went Ryoma batship insane on Zeruel and performed what Shinji Alpha can only do with support from MP EVA and extensively prepared ritual.
—
xxx
I like how the one time EVA and Gundam actually crossed over, people want to completely dismiss it because it isn’t part of their core canon, even though it’s the only officially endorsed occasion we’ve had where the two franchises encountered each other.
xxx
Consider how characters who were not able to resist soul fuck in the series could do it in @3, the kind of horror the @ Number faced before which undoubtedly harden them and all the infinite sentinel power protecting them (Getter Ray, Ide, Irui, to name a few).
Yes, they are non canon to original series and cross series vs. They have grown, become more powerful, to the point they can frigging take down cosmic level entity like Keisar Erphes. They never went through all that jazz nor grown that much in their canon time line, and cross-series vs rip the character from the canon time line, not SRW.
And what you said might have some merit if Gundam and EVA was the only series in SRW.
As it is, there are mechs that can easily stomp Instrumentality among the @ Number, and the feat could have been done by them. You have nothing concrete to prove Gundam > EVA even in SRW beside gameplay, which is horribly wrong compare to in-story canon of SRW itself.
Talk about gameplay and story difference, did I mention how frigging HTB Cannon can be weaker than Rampage Ghost?
Ughh…
“Even in the original, even though he went Berserk against Zeruel, he still tanked Ramiel’s beam and Sahaquiel without going Berserk.
Even if we don’t use Rebuild feat, that mean he can still tank sustain heat that melt metal bulk head in a matter of seconds and stop small-scale (compare to Rebuild only, it’s still enough to wipe out entire base, think colony destroying level) meteor drop.”
-
I’ll admit I can’t debate against rebirth, having never seen it, but I’ve gone over how hot the plasma in the Gundam’s beam saber has to be already. Gundarium wasn’t showing any signs of damage from the plasma leader from the Adzam, we’ve been over the temperatures, how long it tanked it, ect. Now beam sabers have to be considerably hotter to be strong enough to cut through gundarium. There has to be considerable energy in beam weaponry as well.
-
“The story never had any Gundam vs Eva confrontation. ”
-
It is possible to have Gundams during evangelion events.
-
“They still cannot instantly melt mountain.”
-
All anti-jaburo mobile arms are capable of ripping through mountains, as I understand it. They don’t completely wipe a mountain only because their beams are never that big. My point was Amuro has shown the skillsets needed if one wished to find if he could take on an enemy in a bigger, more fearsome unit. All of those mobile armors would have defeated Shinji.
-
“Look at N-2 that was used against Sachiel in original series. It’s a clean nuke, and was show to be able to melt the area where it was used into magma, so we can’t discount its heat either.”
-
Well, at least I’m finally satisfied that an EVA can tank magma levels of heat.. but that’s not even half as hot as the Adzam’s plasma leader. I’m talking about some real seriously high temperatures here.
-
“Rebuild Shinji went Ryoma batship insane on Zeruel and performed what Shinji Alpha can only do with support from MP EVA and extensively prepared ritual.”
-
I’ll have to take your word for it.
-
” and it can stay activated indefinitely with S2 Engine. LCL provide the pilot with any necessary nutrition allow longer lasting power too.”
-
It still seems to me that they fail to bring up their AT Field A LOT. It might be more reliable in rebuild (Which I will never watch. I can not stand the new EVA designs at all) but from the older series and movie it just seemed like it was only used when the plot called for it, and otherwise it was forgotten.
-
“As it is, there are mechs that can easily stomp Instrumentality among the @ Number, and the feat could have been done by them. You have nothing concrete to prove Gundam > EVA even in SRW beside gameplay, which is horribly wrong compare to in-story canon of SRW itself.”
-
Unless the gundam characters present during the EVA points in the story were hiding off the front lines, it seems unlikely that I have no grounds to stand on as far as the SRW story goes, although I’ll hand it to you that they had some magnificent back up. I believe the point still stands that the EVA units failed to kill any of the gundams in the story. However I will concede that with advancement in character and tech the SRW Gundams are unlike the actual anime ones.
This is going to be rather underhanded.. but isn’t SRW RX-78-2 and Amuro the most recent incarnation? Would that fly? Or is it a no?
xxx
Gundarium wasn’t showing any signs of damage from the plasma leader from the Adzam
xxx
Adzam use Electric Plasma that overload MS electric circuit
A quick google give us the definition of electric plasma:
“An electrical plasma is a cloud of ions and electrons that, under the excitation of applied electrical and magnetic fields, can sometimes light up and behave in some unusual ways. The most familiar examples of electrical plasmas are the neon sign, lightning, and the electric arc welding machine”
—
So it varies from neo-light and welding machine to lightning.
Consider how it was employed to overload circuit and not melting armors, I’m betting on the lower range.
—
In fact, ZZ beam sabers were considered very powerful, more powerful than RX-78-2 and we got a figure for it: 1.1 MW
—
Wait, I even found RX 78-2 beam saber power rate: 0.38 MW
xxx
It is possible to have Gundams during evangelion events.
xxx
Again, game play
Not scripted event, and nothing in story suggest Gundams were responsible for beating EVA
xxx
All anti-jaburo mobile arms are capable of ripping through mountains, as I understand it. They don’t completely wipe a mountain only because their beams are never that big. My point was Amuro has shown the skillsets needed if one wished to find if he could take on an enemy in a bigger, more fearsome unit. All of those mobile armors would have defeated Shinji.
xxx
blowing and flash melting are two entirely different matters. And the talk about size just make your case worse.
The beam of Ramiel was only slightly bigger than the positron beam.
And those bigger unit you mentioned don’t have full body barrier capable of blocking MA level beam cannon for an extended amount of time plus infinite energy source to recharge said barrier.
xxx
I’ll have to take your word for it.
xxx
Or just watch the Zeruel clip I linked.
xxx
Unless the gundam characters present during the EVA points in the story were hiding off the front lines, it seems unlikely that I have no grounds to stand on as far as the SRW story goes, although I’ll hand it to you that they had some magnificent back up. I believe the point still stands that the EVA units failed to kill any of the gundams in the story. However I will concede that with advancement in character and tech the SRW Gundams are unlike the actual anime ones.
xxx
EVA units never get killed by Gundam either. No event of that happening.
—
If you use game-play, EVA can easily tag and kill high end Gundam enemy units (who will absolutely stomp RX-78-2) just like Gundam can tag and kill enemy units from EVA.
Stat wise Gundam, while RX-78-2 never appear, EVA is more powerful than several MS considered more advance than it in-story.
—
So, we cannot draw anything conclusive from this method.
xxx
This is going to be rather underhanded.. but isn’t SRW RX-78-2 and Amuro the most recent incarnation? Would that fly? Or is it a no?
xxx
No, RX-78-2 never gained the ability to fly on Earth during the canon story.
Not even Nu or Hi-Nu can fly on Earth.
In SRW, it can only fly if you bothered to give it a Minosky Craft, which is a technology that was invented long after RX-78-2 get destroyed, and if you count that as ‘can fly’, then EVA can fly too, with the very same part.
Judging by the length of most of these comments, we could all write a book on this subject. Heh, we’re all such nerds.
Anyway, I reckon it would boil down to a fight between the Gundam and Eva-01 (as has probably already been established). In terms of damage resistance, Eva-01 wins full stop and I doubt very much that even a beam sabre could do enough to stop it. As for the skill of the pilots, I’m assuming everyone in Gundam has military training (I haven’t watched much) and the only Eva pilot that could match them in terms of skill would be Asuka.
Evas are basically the 200 metre tall equivalent of a contortionist, whereas Gundams are rather bulky and probably aren’t flexible to such a degree (geddit?). However, Gundams are pretty awesome at range with their giant cannons that I can’t remember the names of. Although I’m pretty sure an AT field could take even that. i think there’s a pretty massive size difference too, and don’t even get me started on NERV’s positron rifle…
Additionally, there’s also Shinji’s crazy, murderous spirit mom inside the Eva, and also the crazy murderous Dummy Plug, and even the occasional crazy, murderous Shinji.
I reckon Eva 01 has the odds in its favour, but anything could happen, maybe even the Third Impact, but they’re probably saving that for the film. Why do we have to link the series and guess what would happen? It’ll be Aliens vs Predator all over again… Although I very much doubt that any movie would be made about this.
Has anyone else seen the Avengers yet? That overcomes the problem of nerds arguing about why a particular superhero is better by making sure that in every superhero vs. superhero fight, neither character wins.
Wow this match is tough! I’m going with Lancelot or Laevatein on this one ;D
“Adzam use Electric Plasma that overload MS electric circuit
A quick google give us the definition of electric plasma:
“An electrical plasma is a cloud of ions and electrons that, under the excitation of applied electrical and magnetic fields, can sometimes light up and behave in some unusual ways. The most familiar examples of electrical plasmas are the neon sign, lightning, and the electric arc welding machine””
-
The scene specifically tells us what the temperature outside of the mobile suit is. I think Zeon was going a little over board with the weapon is all… but they had no idea what the capabilities of the Gundam were so you can’t really blame them.
-
“we got a figure for it: 1.1 MW”
-
I don’t trust the tech manual numbers, the power output is much too low. Look at the Zakus, they’re putting out less power than a modern tank and they’re currently supposed to be big enough to effortlessly step on one. That doesn’t fly with me.
-
“blowing and flash melting are two entirely different matters. And the talk about size just make your case worse.”
-
Except most megaparticle weapons don’t have a ridiculous corona effect like, say, the buster rifles. They only destroy what they touch if the beam is big enough to touch it. The only time an anti-base mobile armor has ever fired on a mountain, it did instantly kill like half the damn mountain.
-
“So, we cannot draw anything conclusive from this method.”
-
All right, point taken.
-
“No, RX-78-2 never gained the ability to fly”
-
I was actually kind of joking, and not implying that it could fly, but implying that the more powerful video game versions of it should be used.
*The scene specifically tells us what the temperature outside of the mobile suit is. I think Zeon was going a little over board with the weapon is all… but they had no idea what the capabilities of the Gundam were so you can’t really blame them.*
—
And it was?
===
*I don’t trust the tech manual numbers, the power output is much too low. Look at the Zakus, they’re putting out less power than a modern tank and they’re currently supposed to be big enough to effortlessly step on one. That doesn’t fly with me.*
—
Keep in mind the year the original Gundam was released. Back then they don’t have an idea about modern day weapons’ power
—
As for Zaku stepping on tanks with that kind of output.
They weight several dozens tons.
You don’t need high power output to do that.
===
*Except most megaparticle weapons don’t have a ridiculous corona effect like, say, the buster rifles. They only destroy what they touch if the beam is big enough to touch it. The only time an anti-base mobile armor has ever fired on a mountain, it did instantly kill like half the damn mountain.*
—
You misunderstood
By “blowing and flash melting are different”, I was not talking about the AOE, but the energy requirement for the two phenomenons.
Melting require tremendously more power than blowing up something of the same size and mass. Flash melting is an entire different league from melting.
Beam Cannons have been shown blowing up big things when it hit the mark, but only Twin Satellite Cannon ever shown an effect close to flash-melting, and that thing is stronger than even a colony laser.
Elaborate on melting vs blowing things up
While a MA beam cannon shot can flash melt what is directly in its way, when it’s fired at a target as big as a small mountain and expend all its energy, it only blow a large chunk of said mountain. That mean all its energy was not enough to melt said mountain, only blow up.
—
If something is shot at a mountain, and the energy it releases can melt said mountain with the need for sustained fire, that weapon is magnitudes stronger than the aforementioned beam cannon in term of energy output.
correction: the energy it releases can melt said mountain without the need for sustained fire
>.>
@Riverla
You have more to share in this match?
Its sort of awe-inspiring with how aware of all sides you are, in here.
Awe-inspiring? I sort of agree… sort of. I thought I knew a lot, but it seems I haven’t scratched the surface. Oh, well, it was my fault for joining a forum argument in the first place. I feel so small. Anyway, my friend got a girlfriend yesterday, so I figure if he can, so can I. You guys might wanna try that too. I’m not being insulting, but it could be fun. So, I’m off for the moment …
EVA-01 WILL WIN HANDS DOWN FULL STOP SCREW THEIR TECHNOLOGY, SCREW THEIR GUNS, IT’S WAY BETTER SEE YA PSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHWEEEEEW gone…
Sorry about that, I’m being a bit mean, but really, does it matter how much of a mountain can be melted? Instead, why not think about what the gun would do to its opponent, as opposed to a large shaft of rock and earth jutting out of the ground. Are Gundams made of soil? No.
*Sorry about that, I’m being a bit mean, but really, does it matter how much of a mountain can be melted? Instead, why not think about what the gun would do to its opponent, as opposed to a large shaft of rock and earth jutting out of the ground. Are Gundams made of soil? No.*
—
Because it give an idea of how powerful the weapon is (For example, something that can destroy a whole mountain is obviously more powerful than something that can destroy a building), and thus give an idea of how powerful the armor/barrier that can tank said weapon is.
Not to mention, for weapons of the same principle, blast zone AOE is directly relate to the amount of power. For example, if both nuke are single-warhead, the nuke that cause bigger explosion is stronger.
@Riverla
Is there more to teach us in here, so far?
I am here to learn!
Eva-01 is clear winner here.
I have Lancelot being 2nd place, but its disputable maybe with Gundam. I put it Lancelot ahead, being the only one with enough firepower to theoretically damage/defeat an Eva (FLEJIA launcher)
But Eva takes this.
In any case, the outcome of this battle would be a crushing defeat of everyone at the hands of Eva-01. Why?
1. Eva-01, with an S2 engine, would be unstoppable with it’s unlimited energy source.
2. Even without an S2 engine, Eva-01 can stay functional for 5 minutes while it wreaks havoc; it can also go berserk and destroy everyone and everything. It can also awaken and turn into an ascendant being close to becoming a god.
3. Nothing from any of the other mechs is shown to be capable of neutralizing an AT field.
Aside from this battle, I would like to state that in my opinion, a battle of all mechs/robot-like beings would end up with Cybertron Primus standing atop a galaxy of fried electronics and scrap metal with Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann at his side. Why, you ask?
1. I am a hardcore Transformers fan. Cybertron Primus is a planet, for Christs’ sake! It can probably destroy anything like it’s swatting a fly.
2. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann defies logic and turns into an omnipotent being that wages war on top of Galaxies. It’s not very logical, but it’s still depicted as very powerful.
@Jeffery
You are forgetting either Megas XLR or the Ideon, WHY, exactly?
Seriously, I’ve been trying to plot us a match involving Gurren Lagann with the other two, above but I need a hand to make it work!
“And it was?”
-
I’ve already mentioned the temperature was over 4,000 degrees C, and the armor was suffering no ill effects.
-
“Keep in mind the year the original Gundam was released. Back then they don’t have an idea about modern day weapons’ power”
-
If the numbers don’t hold up, they don’t hold up.
-
“Beam Cannons have been shown blowing up big things when it hit the mark, but only Twin Satellite Cannon ever shown an effect close to flash-melting, and that thing is stronger than even a colony laser.”
-
Beam weapons are not explosive. I don’t know where you get this from.
-
“While a MA beam cannon shot can flash melt what is directly in its way, when it’s fired at a target as big as a small mountain and expend all its energy, it only blow a large chunk of said mountain. That mean all its energy was not enough to melt said mountain, only blow up.”
-
The only time an MA has fired on a mountain it flash melted away half of the mountain. Granted, it has a beam cannon that could have competed with the Big Zam’s, but still.
-
“Eva-01 is clear winner here.
I have Lancelot being 2nd place, but its disputable maybe with Gundam. I put it Lancelot ahead, being the only one with enough firepower to theoretically damage/defeat an Eva (FLEJIA launcher)
But Eva takes this.”
-
Except Amuro is the superior pilot, has better armor, and better weapons than the Lancelot, and the only argument I’ve seen in favor of the Eva tanking a fucking plasma blade is that the AT field will perma-block anything that doesn’t also have an AT-field, despite Amuro being a newtpye, able to get in to people’s heads, surpress their own psionic abilities, and the fact that the AT field does not always block everything. Stopping nukes is not the same thing as having a sliver of a damn star shoved inside of you.
-
@ Jeffrey
-
The TTGL may not be able to stop..
A. Neo-Granzon
B. Neue Regisseur
C. Kaiser Ephes
D. Getter Emperor
E. Valzacard
F. Outlaw Star while it has causality smashing powers.
G. Megas XLR, because it always seems to have causality smashing powers.
H. Ideon, because it’s the fucking Ideon.
I. Mazinkaiser, it’s invincible, and it may not be able to bring down TTGL, but it’s still invincible.
-
Does that cover everything? I feel like there should be more. I expect America and Japan to have robots in that list.. but I’m sort of surprised that I can’t think of any British robots for it.
@Lizard God
Bummer the TM multi-verse has no giant robot on par with Original!-TM’s mad fighting skillz, or you’d add it to that list to boot, right?
And I am trying to get a match involving the TTGL, the Ideon + Megas all fighting each other among others to the site, before I hit college next summer, anyone mind lending me a hand?
Megas is a walking no limits fallacy, I don’t ever suggest putting it in a fight.
@Lizard God
But against the two cases above…does it have potential to work, if done right?
*I’ve already mentioned the temperature was over 4,000 degrees C, and the armor was suffering no ill effects.*
—
Sorry, but please screenshot that, or quote a source stating 4000 degrees C.
I cannot trust you on this, because the weapon was specifically said to be used to fry the circuit, not destroy the MS.
===
*If the numbers don’t hold up, they don’t hold up.*
—
They are still canon. Unless the series specifically contradict it, you cannot ignore them.
===
*Beam weapons are not explosive. I don’t know where you get this from.*
—
When they hit the ground, they do explode.
But that beside the point.
I should have make it clearer.
Only Twin satellite Cannon ever has a corona that can flash-melt things. Big things.
===
*The only time an MA has fired on a mountain it flash melted away half of the mountain. Granted, it has a beam cannon that could have competed with the Big Zam’s, but still.*
—
1. That beam will kill anything in UC without insane I field if it hit. It’s far beyond RX 78-2 rifle
2. The entire MA reactor was dedicated to that cannon.
3. Flash melting within the beam radius =/= flash melting with just the corona. Watch Rebuild movie 1.1 for the beam effect and power.
===
*Except Amuro is the superior pilot, has better armor, and better weapons than the Lancelot, and the only argument I’ve seen in favor of the Eva tanking a fucking plasma blade is that the AT field will perma-block anything that doesn’t also have an AT-field, despite Amuro being a newtpye, able to get in to people’s heads, surpress their own psionic abilities, and the fact that the AT field does not always block everything. Stopping nukes is not the same thing as having a sliver of a damn star shoved inside of you.*
—
AT field always work unless the pilot recognize something as non-threat, allowing it to pass through.
Yes, even when it does not appear as hexagons, the AT field is where.
You example of Eva 02 in the movie was addressed. Asuka said she was using AT-field. A closer look at the army shooting Eva 02 has the ordinances bouncing off air before it can reach the unit.
—
Amuro was never the mind-fucking type of Newtype. His expertise is telepathy and precog.
And AT field is the barrier of mind/soul.
Amuro has no feat of bypassing such a powerful protection.
And Shinji mind raped/soul raped an Angel in Rebuid with sheer strength of mind. So yeah.
—
His armor is not better. RX 78-2 was damaged by re-entry. Dom’s 60mm Bazooka used by the MS-09 Dom also had the ability to do moderate damage.
Gundam Alex, also used Gundarium, only survived chain mines thank to its Chobham Armor and was critically damaged by mostly Zaku and one Kaempfer in the end.
In Sentinel, a Nero, MS using Gundarium allow, got it’s AI screwed when on automatic landing, and was destroyed. This is the moon (lower gravity) and landing procedure we are talking about, not ramming.
—
The beam sword will not work vs AT field.
It worked vs I field because I field cannot stop solid matter, and thus the hilt can get pass it.
AT field stop both energy and matter,
If the beam saber heat wanted to have a ghost chance in hell of hurting EVA with its heat, it will need to insta-melt entire Mobilesuit into slag with a swing/stab, not just cutting through or melt a hole.
===
===
*The TTGL may not be able to stop..
A. Neo-Granzon
B. Neue Regisseur
C. Kaiser Ephes
D. Getter Emperor
E. Valzacard
F. Outlaw Star while it has causality smashing powers.
G. Megas XLR, because it always seems to have causality smashing powers.
H. Ideon, because it’s the fucking Ideon.
I. Mazinkaiser, it’s invincible, and it may not be able to bring down TTGL, but it’s still invincible.*
—
Actually, remove Neo, Neu and Outlaw sTar from the list.
-Neo best feat is system bursting, and -Neu is not even planet bursting.
-Outlaw start can fuck with causality, but TTGL can do the same, fucking up probability, time, space and dimensions.
Add to that list:
-Zinv and Idol: merged two collapsing universes together and reality warp it
- Xenogear: damaged a construct that survived Big bang without a scratch. Its pilot inherited the power of a being that create universes without trying
-War God Demonbane and Elder God Demonbane: War God can destroy universes by running into them (universes are said to be like atom to it), Elder God repeatedly defeat a multiversal God that trolled War God for the lulz.
Ughh, correction to my post:
“Yes, even when it does not appear as hexagons, the AT field is there.”
“Sorry, but please screenshot that, or quote a source stating 4000 degrees C.
I cannot trust you on this, because the weapon was specifically said to be used to fry the circuit, not destroy the MS.”
-
I’m guessing you just don’t remember. I cited this from the Adzam’s plasma leader. Although I don’t remember the exact episode it shouldn’t hard to track it down. I know youtube has all of the original gundam anime up. The plasma leader does appear to have some effect on the circuitry but it mostly seems to be effecting the pilot.
-
“They are still canon. Unless the series specifically contradict it, you cannot ignore them.”
-
I wouldn’t ignore them if the series didn’t blatantly appear to ignore them. I’d say hey the numbers don’t lie.. but in this case they do.
-
“When they hit the ground, they do explode.
But that beside the point.
I should have make it clearer.
Only Twin satellite Cannon ever has a corona that can flash-melt things. Big things.”
-
They deliver thermal and kinetic energy to whatever they touch. This causes what you see. Like the explosion of a rail gun or meteor impact
-
“AT field always work unless the pilot recognize something as non-threat, allowing it to pass through.
Yes, even when it does not appear as hexagons, the AT field is where.
You example of Eva 02 in the movie was addressed. Asuka said she was using AT-field. A closer look at the army shooting Eva 02 has the ordinances bouncing off air before it can reach the unit.”
-
If I recall they’re firing missiles at her, which explode near targets, not on targets. Asuka said something along the line of her mother’s gift being the AT field, she didn’t specifically cite it as what she was using. The restraining armor on the Evas is, after all, an armor. It’s pretty obvious that the armor was tanking the attacks.
-
“Amuro was never the mind-fucking type of Newtype. His expertise is telepathy and precog.
And AT field is the barrier of mind/soul.”
-
Char specifically cites Amuro as blocking his powers in CCA. Rewatch that movie.
-
“His armor is not better. RX 78-2 was damaged by re-entry. Dom’s 60mm Bazooka used by the MS-09 Dom also had the ability to do moderate damage.
Gundam Alex, also used Gundarium, only survived chain mines thank to its Chobham Armor and was critically damaged by mostly Zaku and one Kaempfer in the end.
In Sentinel, a Nero, MS using Gundarium allow, got it’s AI screwed when on automatic landing, and was destroyed. This is the moon (lower gravity) and landing procedure we are talking about, not ramming.”
-
The Gundam Alex never took damage until it got heat hawked. You need to give examples of the Lancelot’s armor being superior, although I routinely hear on how knightmare frames are fragile for mecha, so I don’t really expect you’ll find what you’re looking for.
-
“The beam sword will not work vs AT field.
It worked vs I field because I field cannot stop solid matter, and thus the hilt can get pass it.
AT field stop both energy and matter,
If the beam saber heat wanted to have a ghost chance in hell of hurting EVA with its heat, it will need to insta-melt entire Mobilesuit into slag with a swing/stab, not just cutting through or melt a hole.”
-
The Gundam’s beam saber is very efficient at containing its heat. You would never see anything like that happen. I also never claimed the AT Field was like an I-Field. I claimed it doesn’t always activate, and Amuro could plausibly knock it out.
-
“-Neo best feat is system bursting, and -Neu is not even planet bursting.
-Outlaw start can fuck with causality, but TTGL can do the same, fucking up probability, time, space and dimensions.”
-
Causality is not the same thing as probability at all. It’s the rules that the universe runs on. When you can change what probability even means, that’s an I-Win button. Neo and Neue also put out enough hurt that a hit from either could potentially bring down TTGL, especially since Neo-Granzon wormholes all over the place, it’s already too great a match for the Cathedral Terra, it would have a harder time but Shu’s intelligent enough that he could probably figure out where to strike with his black hole to bring down the TTGL, which was incapable of tanking a singularity, mind you.
*I’m guessing you just don’t remember. I cited this from the Adzam’s plasma leader. Although I don’t remember the exact episode it shouldn’t hard to track it down. I know youtube has all of the original gundam anime up. The plasma leader does appear to have some effect on the circuitry but it mostly seems to be effecting the pilot.*
—
After looking up youtube article about Adzam.
No, the plasma was not at 4000 degrees. The plasma field actually is there to make the dust that was scattered before that heat up to 4000 degrees, as a result, frying whatever circuit said dust could come into contact with.
Small dust particle and entire field is a big difference.
And even if the dust melted the armor, you has noway of observing the damage, as it would be only a dust particle-size hole.
===
*I wouldn’t ignore them if the series didn’t blatantly appear to ignore them. I’d say hey the numbers don’t lie.. but in this case they do.*
—
I’ve yet to seen anything that contradict the number of their weapon output.
All you ever mentioned is beam coat for early shield (which is untrue, beam coat was only invent during zeta era, and units whose seal had beam coat was noted) and motive power.
Contradict feat only invalidate the info relevant to it, not everything.
===
*They deliver thermal and kinetic energy to whatever they touch. This causes what you see. Like the explosion of a rail gun or meteor impact*
—
I know, and the explosion happened because the beam was actually stopped, expending all it’s thermal and kinetic force.
Except the beam Eva tank punched right through a mountain (as in, it did not expend all its energy), and mass that never come into contact with it was insta-melted. That’s how much energy and kinetic force it contained.
-
*If I recall they’re firing missiles at her, which explode near targets, not on targets. Asuka said something along the line of her mother’s gift being the AT field, she didn’t specifically cite it as what she was using. The restraining armor on the Evas is, after all, an armor. It’s pretty obvious that the armor was tanking the attacks.*
—
Those missile also deal no damage, despite EVAs less armored parts have suffered at least slight damage from less powerful force when its AT field was down.
And the scene where the tanks and chopper shoot at EVA02, a closer look shown the ordinances bounced off air, even before it come into contact with 02.
Unless you are telling me explosive tank shells were designed to deal damage by bouncing of target instead of exploding upon impact, or the restraining armor can make bullet bounce off it even without any contact. Eva 02 was using its AT field.
===
*Char specifically cites Amuro as blocking his powers in CCA. Rewatch that movie.*
—
Blocking another Newtype =/= mind fucking the opponent.
Amuro never used his ability to mind-hack other people, and while most NT have some similarity, each have unique strength.Assuming he can mind hack just because, say, Sirocco can, is no good
===
*The Gundam Alex never took damage until it got heat hawked. You need to give examples of the Lancelot’s armor being superior, although I routinely hear on how knightmare frames are fragile for mecha, so I don’t really expect you’ll find what you’re looking for*
—
you were talking about Lancelot? Then it’s my bad.
===
*The Gundam’s beam saber is very efficient at containing its heat. You would never see anything like that happen. I also never claimed the AT Field was like an I-Field. I claimed it doesn’t always activate, and Amuro could plausibly knock it out.*
—
1. effectient at containing its head is worse in this case. It need to heat to transmit through the AT field, which is usually a small distance from the body, unless the pilot purposefully erected it close, which would be OOC for Shinji.
2. it’s power output was listed as below beam rifle. Even if you ignore the exact number of output, the outline that rifle > sword in output remain.So even if it was not containing it heat, the heat of a beam saber is useless against AT field, which tanked far more destructive heat beams.
—
AT field is always on, or at least can be erected fast enough to block a beam the user never expected, and can be maintained as long as the pilot wanted, provide there are energy (which is practically unlimited in Awaken mode or with S2 engine). Amuro simply does not have the damage to knock it out.
===
*Causality is not the same thing as probability at all. It’s the rules that the universe runs on. When you can change what probability even means, that’s an I-Win button.*
—
Causality is the relation between cause and effect. Warping causality mean you can make some event has no result, or some result happen without the cause.
There’s also limit to it, which must be measured with feat. For example, can the user make a result with zero chance of happening happen? What is the largest scale event whose result was nullified?
—
Probablity manipulation on the level of TTGL can have similar effect. Causing sometime that cannot happen to happen (effect without cause), and causing thing that should certainly happen to not happen (event without effect).
—
To change the very definition of probability require powerful reality warping, not causality control.
===
*Neo and Neue also put out enough hurt that a hit from either could potentially bring down TTGL, especially since Neo-Granzon wormholes all over the place, it’s already too great a match for the Cathedral Terra, it would have a harder time but Shu’s intelligent enough that he could probably figure out where to strike with his black hole to bring down the TTGL, which was incapable of tanking a singularity, mind you.*
—
How would destroying a system level or life wiping level fire power do anything to something 100 times the size of Milky Way galaxy?
—
How would teleporting with worm hole help against something that can home on target regardless of the time and dimension they were in?
—
Probably can figure out where to strike vs probability control… uh oh..
—
And no, TTGL jumped on galaxies. At the core of each galaxies is giantic Blackholes/singularity. So I don’t know where you get the ‘incapable of tanking a singularity’ from.
What endanger the Cathedral Terra and the Arc Gurren Lagann was a “Spiral energy singularity” that suck up Spiral Energy around it before converting them into pressure, essentially mean the more Spiral power the main cast generated, the more powerful it become, while sapping all those time and dimension fucking ability from them. Neo does not have this kind of singularity machine.
—
Also, Cathedral Terra and Arc Gurren Lagann =/= TTGL. We are not talking about the former
“After looking up youtube article about Adzam.
No, the plasma was not at 4000 degrees. The plasma field actually is there to make the dust that was scattered before that heat up to 4000 degrees, as a result, frying whatever circuit said dust could come into contact with.
Small dust particle and entire field is a big difference.
And even if the dust melted the armor, you has noway of observing the damage, as it would be only a dust particle-size hole.”
-
I don’t believe I ever said the Gundam was coated in plasma, although the name implies that the dust was heated up to the point of becoming plasma. The field around the Gundam was clearly super heated by this junk. It would not have made tiny pin point holes, and assuming it needed direct contact, the constant saturation of the heat would have shown some visible effects. The Gundam’s armor remains completely unharmed through the entire process.
-
“I’ve yet to seen anything that contradict the number of their weapon output.
All you ever mentioned is beam coat for early shield (which is untrue, beam coat was only invent during zeta era, and units whose seal had beam coat was noted) and motive power.
Contradict feat only invalidate the info relevant to it, not everything.”
-
Beam coat has been around for a long time, unless you can cite your claim. The Gundam’s rifle, also, if I recall, doesn’t have a power level given to it if that’s the argument you’re trying to make. I’ve theorized that because it’s much more powerful than needs to be, scaled with the usual numbers, it’s probably in the 12 megawatt range, but Gundam weapons either A. are capable of doing more damage than their energy input would suggest or B. the numbers are just wrong and the energy of their attacks should be substantially higher. However, the age of the animes does make things like damage out put lacking in uniformity. Still, you shouldn’t be getting many of the results we’re given.
-
“Except the beam Eva tank punched right through a mountain (as in, it did not expend all its energy), and mass that never come into contact with it was insta-melted. That’s how much energy and kinetic force it contained.”
-
You’re lying. The only time an Eva took a hit from Ramiel it was 02, and she was using a shield which was still barely able to protect them. This would imply an Eva can not take a direct hit from one of those, when they need a solid chunk of their best armor as big as they are to stop the beam. The beam also did not punch right through a mountain. It melted roughly half a small mountain. This actually kind of implies that if Apsalus fired on Eva-01, the poor thing wouldn’t stand a chance.
-
“Blocking another Newtype =/= mind fucking the opponent.
Amuro never used his ability to mind-hack other people, and while most NT have some similarity, each have unique strength.Assuming he can mind hack just because, say, Sirocco can, is no good”
-
I didn’t say he can mind fuck, I said he can fuck with mind powers. If he could mind fuck like Sirocco the fight would have been over the moment Shinji tried anything too dangerous.
-
“1. effectient at containing its head is worse in this case. It need to heat to transmit through the AT field, which is usually a small distance from the body, unless the pilot purposefully erected it close, which would be OOC for Shinji.”
-
AT Fields appear to be a reflex action, instead of a latent one. Unless the Eva and the Gundam are one on one fighting, I don’t how Shinji would be able to expect Amuro, who routinely relies on striking when the enemy isn’t expecting or isn’t looking in Gundam.
-
“2. it’s power output was listed as below beam rifle. Even if you ignore the exact number of output, the outline that rifle > sword in output remain.”
-
Beam sabers routinely get through what beam rifles do not. your argument is invalid.
-
“Causality is the relation between cause and effect. Warping causality mean you can make some event has no result, or some result happen without the cause.
There’s also limit to it, which must be measured with feat. For example, can the user make a result with zero chance of happening happen? What is the largest scale event whose result was nullified?”
-
“Causality is the relation between cause and effect. Warping causality mean you can make some event has no result, or some result happen without the cause.
There’s also limit to it, which must be measured with feat. For example, can the user make a result with zero chance of happening happen? What is the largest scale event whose result was nullified?”
-
No, the ability to alter causality is the ability to change the fundamental workings of the universe. If you have control over it then you have complete control over anything. It’s superior to probability altering, because you’re still working with in the rule sets of your universe, eve if you can bend them, you can’t rewrite them.
-
“How would destroying a system level or life wiping level fire power do anything to something 100 times the size of Milky Way galaxy?
—
How would teleporting with worm hole help against something that can home on target regardless of the time and dimension they were in?
—
Probably can figure out where to strike vs probability control… uh oh..
—
And no, TTGL jumped on galaxies. At the core of each galaxies is giantic Blackholes/singularity. So I don’t know where you get the ‘incapable of tanking a singularity’ from.
What endanger the Cathedral Terra and the Arc Gurren Lagann was a “Spiral energy singularity” that suck up Spiral Energy around it before converting them into pressure, essentially mean the more Spiral power the main cast generated, the more powerful it become, while sapping all those time and dimension fucking ability from them. Neo does not have this kind of singularity machine.
—
Also, Cathedral Terra and Arc Gurren Lagann =/= TTGL. We are not talking about the former”
-
Uh oh, you didn’t watch TTGL did you? The anti-spirals were going to defeat the TTGL with a singularity. When you can teleport through time and space it helps you get in range to attack. Shu would only have to strike the Cathedral Terra itself to take out the TTGL.
-
Neue fires galaxy wiping beams. Galaxy wiping. It’s a galaxy buster. TTGL was threatened by having galaxies thrown at it. You do the math.If it got hit with one of Neue’s beams, it’d get knocked on its ass.
-
When the TTGL can tank singularities, come back and lemme know. Find the scene where it does it. I’ll be glad to change my opinion once you do.
-
Also, add to the list Diebuster. I forgot about her.
It’s clear that if Eva-01 does awaken/eats an s2 Engine then it’s a Curb-Stomp Battle since even a technologically-superior Gundam cannot stop what is basically an immortal mind-fucking “god”. The biggest hope for a tech-based mecha in ever getting through that metaphysical AT Field is the Eva’s pre-awakening limited power supply that experienced ace pilots can easily take advantage of.
In a normal mecha battle, it’s theoretically easy for a Gundam to defeat an Eva because of the advantage of having a better pilot (any Gundam pilot > Shinji) and an independent energy source (arm it with a Positron Rifle, or modify a Beam Sabre for positrons, and AT Fields go down quick)
However it’s different when it’s a Gundam vs. Berserk Eva: Here’s where the difference and confusion lies. You’re not dealing with just another mecha anymore, you’re dealing with a supernatural Lovecraftian Eldritch Abomination beyond all plausible science and operated by the unstoppable rage of the pilot’s dead mother. Anything can become possible at this point. Heck, Eva 01 in normal combat lost against one of the most powerful Angels (Zeruel) simply due to running out of normal power, but when it got berserk it did not even need power to be able to eat Zeruel alive (even worse in the Rebuild where Eva-01 got freaking eye beams and regenerated an arm out of its own AT Field to perform an Erupting Burning Finger). A berserk Eva ignored injuries inflicted by an Eldritch horror so how can Eva be harmed by a mere “Real Robot” such as a Gundam. A Gundam may be able to punch out this “Cthulhu”, but it’s highly improbable, but maybe we can use radical modifications (in tactics/weapons and), luck, sufficient skill, encyclopaedic knowledge of an Eva’s weaknesses, megatons of AT-piercing energy, and of course the willpower to resist the insanity effects of Eldritch Abominations (Being Brightslapped helps)
Awakened “God” Eva with s2 Engine and Instrumentality/Mind Rape abilities is definitely overkill for everyone else listed above except probably some other Reality Warper-level mech such as TTGL.
*(arm it with a Positron Rifle, or modify a Beam Sabre for positrons, and AT Fields go down quick)*
—
Among the Gundam verses, only Seed has positron weapons, and even they do not have positron melee weapon.
We are using RX-78-2 here. It simply do not have access to what you are proposing.
And only the positron cannon or sniper rifle was show capable of piercing AT field. The performance of lesser scale Positron weapons like normal rifles against AT fields were… disappointing, to put it lightly.
And technically, non berserk Eva 01 with S2 Engine = perpetual energy.
===
* A Gundam may be able to punch out this “Cthulhu”, but it’s highly improbable, but maybe we can use radical modifications (in tactics/weapons and), luck, sufficient skill, encyclopaedic knowledge of an Eva’s weaknesses, megatons of AT-piercing energy, and of course the willpower to resist the insanity effects of Eldritch Abominations (Being Brightslapped helps)*
—
In short, to have a chance, the Gundam has to have access to technologies they don’t possess, the ability to refit and modify the mech when fighting.
Then you should just go with ‘no chance’.
What’s the point of using Gundam when you make it into something else entirely?
===
*Awakened “God” Eva with s2 Engine and Instrumentality/Mind Rape abilities is definitely overkill for everyone else listed above except probably some other Reality Warper-level mech such as TTGL.*
—
Nah, reality warping is overkill..
One single Ghost Drone from Macross, dropping a planetary scale Dimension Eater on the planet. Problem solved. You kinda lose a habitable planet, but it’s better than dieing.