The former Dragon Rider from Alagaësia makes his debut on Fact Pile against fantasy legend Gandalf. Even with Gandalf’s vast experience, I think this is Brom’s match to lose. Brom bring’s to the table a wide variety of powerful and versatile magic.
This match takes place in the outpost on Utgard Mountain.
Brom cannot use the Death Words.
How will these two settle the score?
HaHa first and everybody under me can kiss my nuts
@Eric
Is this Movie Gandalf or Book Gandalf?
It would default to Book, unless specifically mentioned otherwise, as the Book version is in this case the source material.
“Even with Gandalf’s vast experience, I think this is Brom’s match to lose.”
This is a rather confusing statement. Do you mean that despite Gandalf’s vast experience, he will lose? Or is it that Gandalf wins due to his aforementioned experience?
Gandalf wins for a more epic beard
Not very affiliated with either character to give an educated opinion
I’m honoured to receive my second star…too bad it was to such a shameful comment…
“This is a rather confusing statement. Do you mean that despite Gandalf’s vast experience, he will lose? Or is it that Gandalf wins due to his aforementioned experience?”
I believe he means that even though Gandalf has much more experience, Brom has the advantage and therefore it will be his effort (or lack thereof) that determines the winner.
It’s like how in sports, if one side gains a big lead early on, the match becomes ‘theirs to lose’. As in, the only thing that can make them lose is if they screw up or just implode on themselves (metaphorically, of course. However awesome that would be).
That’s a surprisingly difficult saying to define…
I am not acquainted with Brom’s feats and traits and given that it’s been a while (10 years give or take) since I read the LOTR trilogy, I am not sure about Gandalf’s other than him being technically a demigod and being able to deflect swords as shown in the movie. Whether that is show in the books I am no longer sure
This is when Gandalf reunites with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli:
“The old man turned away and went towards a heap of fallen stones and rock at the foot of the cliff behind. Immediately, as if a spell had been removed, the others relaxed and stirred. Gimli’s hand went at once to his axe-haft. Aragorn drew his sword. Legolas picked up his bow.
The old man took no notice, but stooped and sat himself on a low flat stone. Then his grey cloak drew apart, and they saw, beyond doubt, that he was clothed beneath all in white.
‘Saruman!’ cried Gimli, springing towards him with axe in hand. ‘speak! Tell us where you have hidden our friends! What have you done with them? Speak, or I will make a dint in your hat that even a wizard will find it hard to deal with!’
The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock.
There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli’s axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.”
Hopefully, I will provide more later on.
sorry for the triple-post but…..that excerpt is from Chapter 5 from the book “The Two Towers.”
Don’t know enough about either to really comment, but I’ll say what I can. Grax had some great comments about what Maia (what Gandalf is) ought to be considered capable of in the Saruman versus Yoda thread. A problem is that it’s somewhat hard to gauge *exactly* what Maia in their crotchety old wizard forms are capable of.
Brom seems to be able to use his magic in a much more direct, and variably direct, manner. However, unless I’m remembering wrong, Brom needs to speak to use any of his magic (as in, absolutely needs, and cannot use magic if he is forced to stay silent).
If someone can show Gandalf having an ability to stifle someone, keeping them from talking, then…oh wait.
In “Hobbit” Gandalf is shown to have the ability to conjure lightning, he can also conjure fire and a Shield/ Ward. Though I’ll have to dig into the books again to find these instances.
“A problem is that it’s somewhat hard to gauge *exactly* what Maia in their crotchety old wizard forms are capable of.”
If the fight against the Balrog is any indication of their physical prowess, then I’d say that Gandalf is capable of handling himself in melee combat. If he can do it to a Balrog (corrupted Maiar seduced by Morgoth) then Brom would be no problem – then again I don’t know much about Brom.
Also, Brom trying to engage the White in melee would be considered suicidal at the least if you consult the excerpt i provided from “The Two Towers.”
“However, unless I’m remembering wrong, Brom needs to speak to use any of his magic (as in, absolutely needs, and cannot use magic if he is forced to stay silent).”
In Brisingr it was revealed that it is not the words, but the intent behind the words. So Brom can just think his spells. There is a catch however. Since magic must do everything that it is instructed – even if it costs more energy than the user has available (in which case the user dies) – any stray thought that creeps into the mind while casting a spell using the mind may alter the spell. This could have very serious consequences. Brom was taught not to use this method unless he absolutely needed to.
Question: how is Gandalf at blocking intrusions into the mind?
“any stray thought that creeps into the mind while casting a spell using the mind may alter the spell”
Such as a blinding light? And Brom entering a WTF moment caused by said light?
“Question: how is Gandalf at blocking intrusions into the mind?”
Does resisting the sway of the Ring of Power count as attempted mind-rape?
@Eric
as the poster of the match aren’t you supposed to be neutral or do your comments hold and value?
I’m just laying out facts, not trying to persuade anybody.
I didn’t stay particularly neutral on the match I posted, though most of my comments were to refute claims that I had rigged the match or adjust the match to be more proper (overlooked details, underthought aspects etc.) As for this match, does Brom have the same ability as Eragon with the death words? I never actually cared for the series, but I’ve seen it quite a bit here. If he does, is it true that their easily defended against by counter magic? Depending on the answers to those questions, this match could turn one way or another.
Nevermind on the death words, missed that in the OP.
“In “Hobbit” Gandalf is shown to have the ability to conjure lightning, he can also conjure fire and a Shield/ Ward”
I don’t recall instances of lightning. It’s possible you’re mistaking descriptions of flashing swords, magical lights etc for the real thing. Tolkein’s writing is so damn ambiguous:
“The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightning, as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt. But he never leaped.”
That could mean any manner of things.
As for fire, it is always rather unimpressive albeit colourful sparks of fire, only working against particularly flammable creatures such as wolves.
I don’t remember anything about a shield…
@josh
“As for fire, it is always rather unimpressive albeit colourful sparks of fire, only working against particularly flammable creatures such as wolves.”
What about when he was on Amon Sul(weathertop)? That was pretty impressive.
Having read the Eragon books not too long ago, I think I can safely say Gandalf takes this one. Brom doesn’t do anything particularly spectacular, and dies shortly into the series. Gandalf… well, I think everyone is familiar with Gandalf’s pedigree.
@ Ian
More impressive than the flaming pinecones perhaps, but remember the nazgul are also extremely susceptible to fire, losing physical form when their robes are burned away.
It would be far more impressive if we had some description to go by. The ambiguity of Aragorn simply finding evidence of fire on the hilltop is too much to use as a viable feat in a battle. All it really tells us is “Gandalf can create fire”, which we knew already from the Hobbit.
“Gandalf… well, I think everyone is familiar with Gandalf’s pedigree.”
Not enough people on the site. I hate seeing ignorant comments in battles with Tolkein characters based on scenes from the film or very limited knowledge of a maia’s divine status.
Is that the queen douche Jeremy Irons? Or just someone that looks like him lol.
Don’t know much about these fellas, Gandalf has a good rep though. So, why not him.
” The ambiguity of Aragorn simply finding evidence of fire on the hilltop is too much to use as a viable feat in a battle.”
*isn’t enough to use as viable feat in battle.
Blah.
It’s been a while since I’ve read aragon but it seems to me that Nazgul>Razac. Since Gandalf held off *six* (from memory) nazgul, and brom was killed by 2 razac it seems to me that gandalf would win.
@ Dethenger
Brom killed seven of the Forsworn, including one of the most powerful Dragon Riders ever to exist – Morzan. Brom also slew his dragon in the process.
Gandalf is a lot older and has much more powerful magic than brom. He’s also fought much deadlier creatures, like the Balrog. Gandalf is also immortal.
And, unlike Brom here, Gandalf actually survived his book series, and lived on to the ripe old age of 10000000000000000000000.
Idk about more deadly creatures, I think that morzans dragon couldve kicked that balrogs ass. This opinion is based on the abilities of thorn who is far younger and smaller/weaker than morzan’s dragon wouldve been. Brom killed morzan and his dragon at the same time, paolini was kinda vague on that tho
@Eric
“Brom killed seven of the Forsworn, including one of the most powerful Dragon Riders ever to exist – Morzan. Brom also slew his dragon in the process”
That IS pretty badass
@fang
“I think that morzans dragon couldve kicked that balrogs ass.”
Im not so sure about that, but I can’t support it with anything as of yet.
“I think that morzans dragon couldve kicked that balrogs ass.”
You realiz that you’re saying that a dragon would beat a very powerful demon of the underworld, right? A demon that personally kicked the crap out of gandalf, the most powerful wizard in LOTR, remember?
“You realiz that you’re saying that a dragon would beat a very powerful demon of the underworld, right? A demon that personally kicked the crap out of gandalf, the most powerful wizard in LOTR, remember?”
-Not a demon of the underworld.
-Gandalf was not the most powerful wizard at the time.
-Dragons were considered the mightiest creatures on Middle Earth when they were alive.
“-Not a demon of the underworld.”
It isn’t? What the hell is it then?
“-Gandalf was not the most powerful wizard at the time.”
Let me fix that: SECOND most powerful
“Dragons were considered the mightiest creatures on Middle Earth when they were alive.”
And yet one got done in by a midget and a human
There are still dragons in middle earth I think
“It isn’t? What the hell is it then?”
Balrogs are maiar, like Gandalf and Sauron, though they were corrupted by the influence of Morgoth (the Satan figure of Tolkein’s world) and bought to evil,
www.glyphweb.com/arda/b/balrogs.html
“And yet one got done in by a midget and a human”
Balrogs have been killed by elves and men, Saruman was killed by a knife in the back, Shelob was killed by a hobbit gardener, Morgoth was crippled by an elf whom he dwarfed in size and power and nearly eaten by his giant pet spider.
Greater dragons like Ancalagon breathed flame hotter than any other on earth, were capable of corrupting minds with their speech and were so large they blocked out the sun.
“There are still dragons in middle earth I think”
Perhaps I should have said the great dragons, or the named dragons. They are all gone with Smaug, and I don’t believe there has been any mention of other, named or not.
I don’t think my question has been addressed: how adept is Gandalf at resisting mind control? Brom has the ability to reach his consciousness out and take over his opponents mind. In fact, that is always the first tactic used when facing another magician.
Brom lost his immortality when his dragon was killed. After that, he just had longevity.
I’m having trouble, but didn’t Brom fight the Ra’zac? Or was that just in the movie?
“Balrogs are maiar, like Gandalf and Sauron”
So, they’re like evil gods?
“, Saruman was killed by a knife in the back”
Serves him right for not looking
” Shelob was killed by a hobbit gardener”
A badass gardener, with elven weaponry and a shiny thing
@Eric
That was in the movie
“So, they’re like evil gods?”
Sort of. More like angels or beings of similar status. Sauron is the same.
@Eric Gigliotti
“how adept is Gandalf at resisting mind control?”
Aside from resisting the will of Saruman, which could bend the minds of men with some ease, I can’t think of any specific instances.
Does Brom tackle people who are capable of resisting mind control to some degree?Is it a completely dominating will, as is Sauron’s? If so, he should have no problem with Gandalf.
Backing up Josh here. Gandalf’s best example of resisting mental dominance comes from his resisting Saruman’s voice. While every other person there was getting ready to agree with him, Gandalf was still well in control of himself. As Saruman’s voice is built up to be a force not quite on par with the One Ring as far as ability to sway the minds of mortals (technically better at doing it in the immediate sense), that’s not a small feat.
@Eric
You reminded me about the specifics of the wizardly mental effects! Amusingly, I would think a similar scenario to what necessitates that trick would be in effect here: whoever gets off their human-body-annihilating attack(s) first seems likely to win.
“Does Brom tackle people who are capable of resisting mind control to some degree?”
I believe that almost all magic users fight mind to mind who ever is strongest wins so yes he has experience fighting people with mind resistance . i could be wrong its been awhile since i read the books
“Is it a completely dominating will, as is Sauron’s?”
Not sure maybe some one else can answer
Does Brom get his ring with a lot of magic stored up in it? i can not remember the name of it.
@Michael
Yeah I belive in the book he just got stabbed by the Raz’ac when he was sleeping.
@JMF
I think Brom does tackle people with mind defence. Its to distract them mostly. Most of the fighting in the “Inheritace Series” is a mix of magic, melee and mind attacks when it comes to the higher ended Magicians. Brom was trained to block out his mind and to explore with it. So in combat he could use his mind to attack. He also did have a great mental defence since he was a Dragon Rider.
For this fight Brom really needs his Dragon because without it he is not as nearly as powerfull as he was with it. Also, could someone remind me how his Dragon died. Just out of curiosity, I completly forget.
And yes a Dragon could easily beat a Balrog. Well an Elder Dragon from “The Inheritance Series” could anywas. Since a dragons size and strength greatly depends on its age. I think evil dude from “Eragon” dragon could do it (forget his name). Since he did a bunch of black magic on it to make it stronger. It wasnt his originally though so I dont know if it would be as powerfull.
Brom’s dragon, also named Saphira, was killed during the Battle for Doru Araeba – where the Forsworn mounted their final attack on the Dragon Riders. Brom swore to avenge her death by killing Morzan – who he blamed.
Standard fighting among magicians are as follows – fight for the mind. If one magician were to go in for the kill, the second magician would have a split second to do the same. So both usually ended up dying. The Dragon Riders came up with their method – win over the mind of the other so he/she cannot strike back (or at least the magician can get a glimpse of the others intentions if total control is not achievable).
@Eric Gigliotti
Ah, damn. I guess not nearly recently enough if I forgot something like that.
@ Dethenger
Most of this information on Brom is revealed after his death, in Eldest and Brisingr.
“Most of this information on Brom is revealed after his death, in Eldest and Brisingr.”
Yeah, Brom’s a textbook example of a Posthumous Character.
Yeah its kinda annoying. So have we decided if gandalf can resist brom’s mind attacks or not? Even if he can, brom might still be able to immobilize him. Soemthing like that was done by that shade in brisingr to eragon, I don’t have the book with me so I can’t quote but according to memory eragon couldn’t move because the shade’s mind assault was so strong and it took all of eragon’s concentration to resist
It’s been 10 years since i’ve read the books, Josh. The most recent Tolkien novel I’ve read – do note that I use “Tolkien novel’ rather loosely – was ‘The Children of Hurin’, so it is understandable that I do not, accurately, recall Gandalf’s feats.
I can try and dig up my copy of The Two Towers if we want the exact lines where Gandalf resisted Saruman’s influence. Other than that I won’t be able to help with this issue much.
And even without the mental issue, there’s a question of who can outright destroy the other first, supernaturally or otherwise…
Post #9 shows Gandalf in melee action.
Here is the true power of Gandalf.Wisest of the maiar, his name was Olorin,he had more wisdom then any other maia, so I think he could resist this brom.In the Two towers it states that Gandalf is more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord,his wisdom,and experience in both magic and battle give him the win.
I find it funny when new pilers put their opinion out with no supporting evifdence and without knowing anything about their opponent
@Fang
those people are not and should not be considered pilers.
Brom never really fought with brute force. He could if he wanted to with the ring ‘Aren’, but it does say in the books that he was able to outsmart morzan and the others in their mental battles. I’m guessing these two are equally matched in this respect, as Gandalf does seem like a smart cookie.
Regarding melee combat. Didn’t Gandalf get cut up a bit after the battle of five armies, also Brom would be using Morzans sword which cuts through magical defences. Plus Brom was in the top 5 swordsmen of Alagaesia, so i think Broms wins if he gets up close.
Also Brom died because he was tied up and a razac stabbed him/ He only lost to them earlier because he panicked and tried to get them in the dark ( their preferred conditions) and they ambushed him.
After Gandalf fought the Balrog didn’t he die of exhaustion and exposure to the cold, does he still come back if he has had his head lopped off?
@ Fang, are you talking about me?If so you are wrong,I have read factpile for a long time,I did post sooner because I did not what to,@ Blood Dancer,I’m not a real piler because you say so,B.S.My supporting evidents is that Gandalf,is an immortal Maia, with thousands and thousands of years of experience,He lived before the world was made,he fought in the war of wrath,helped to beat Morgoth, fought in the war of the ring.He had the red ring of fire,was the wisest of the Maiar.And do not tell me that I’m not a real piler,who the hell made you boss of this site.
@George
You may consider yourself a piler, boy. But I, who have been here for quite a while, do not see you as such.
I recall Gandalf in a battle of wills with Sauron (a much greater, corrupting force than Saruman) upon the hills of Tol Brandir when Frodo was frightened into putting the ring on by Boromir when the ring broke his will with illusions of grandeur.
I’ll find some quotes later, (maybe tomorrow) but I recall Sauron putting a lot of pressure on Frodo (Sauron is pretty adept at mindfucking) and Gandalf managed to break through that and tell Frodo something along the lines of: “The ring, take it off now, you fool!”
So I suppose if Gandalf was able to lock wills with the most powerful Maiar (in terms of corruption and mental capabilities rather than brawn) I think that he would be able to battle with Brom, who also has an iron will. I think the fact that although the Maiar were restricted from using their powers to openly oppose Sauron, they still had the power of their minds and gave counsel with it. Although when Saruman used his will be brought Rohan to its knees and it required some great heroes to save it along with the work of Gandalf the White (who would have an even greater will of Saruman, some of whoms feats are already documented in the thread).
First I am a man not a boy, you don’t see me much because I have a 12 hour shift were I work, so I can’t post as much as you.
@ blood dancer, I am new here true,but I can post here if I like,just like you.
@ Ridwan
Yes Brom was ambushed by the Ra’zac who tied him and Eragon up. When Murtagh showed up however, the Ra’zac threw a dagger at Eragon to kill him out of spite – and Brom hurled himself in front of the dagger. The dagger stuck between his ribs and punctured his lung. He tried to keep himself alive but did not have enough energy to heal himself and died a couple hours afterward.
You seem testy Blood Dancer. You don’t seem to mind when I post, and I havnt really been here that long.
What’s wrong?
@ Joshman
I forgot about that scene. Although in the version I’m thinking of, Gandalf’s primary contribution was the supernatural equivalent of going “HEY! A**HOLE!” at Sauron, and then FORCING the latter (in all his power and ability for mental dominance) to keep his attention on him and OFF the other hill, where Frodo was cowering. Thus giving the hobbit time to get the ring off. Still a tremendous example of a feat of will, either way.
@George Liquor
Rather than argue, why not just cite sources for your points? You sound like you know the source material very well, grab ahold of the books and throw up some quotes for us about these things Gandalf can do!
(I don’t usually work 12 hour shifts, but I can sympathize with not wanting to dig through even well-liked reading material when coming home from a work day like that. Still, you have to cite sources if you want to be taken seriously).
“, Gandalf’s primary contribution was the supernatural equivalent of going “HEY! A**HOLE!” at Sauron”
Rofl, I liked that part.
“where Frodo was cowering.”
I remember him doing that quite a lot
Here are some sources,The Silmarillion, page 30, of the Maiar,wisest of the Maiar was,Olorin[Gandalf] more wisdom then any other Maia,even Sauron.Maiar were great spirits,who were made before the world was made.Gandalf was of this order,and so lived for millions of years,so he had a great deal of experience.He fought in the war of wrath,He fought the balrog,and won.He had the red ring of fire,he fought in the battle of five armies and he fought in the war of the ring.His wisdom, experience in battle,he fought in all the wars in LOTR, and the power he has as a Maia,would be hard to beat. Hope this is good enough.
I don’t know if i have the LOTR books anymore, and i havnt read them in a while anyway. And is the simarillion a LOTR book? Or a chapter in one of the main trilogy books?
The silmarillion, tell the story of the creation of the world.it deals with the first and second age.It is what happened before the LOTR.
Isn’t Gandalf said to be inspired by the likes of Odin, the Chief of the Aesir/The ‘Pirate King’ of Asgard, so to speak?
That in itself, for a lot of reasons, pretty much describes the fact Gandalf is not going to be a push-over.
Yes he was inspired by Odin,Christ as well.
Actually you should expect people to do there research on their opponent or at least have a competent knowledge before they come charging in with.
“LAWL BROM WILL WIN CAUSE GANDALF IS AN OLD MAN”
Not that that is what anyone has said. But that is what those who know LotR deal with.
Gandalf is something beyond Brom’s capabilities to handle. He is more an avatar of an angelic being than he is a “old wizard”
And Gandalf was forbidden by the Valar from revealing his true power,if not for that I don’t think this would even be up for debate.
What stuns me is that everyone seems to have it down that Brom would be able to crush Gandalf’s mind and take over him, which is profoundly wrong.
Of course, Gandalf was forbidden from revealing his true power on Middle Earth, but if Brom tried to get into his mind, he’d either find himself running into a brick wall or he’d be at the mercy of Gandalf, who has demonstrated an extremely strong will. Could Brom have resisted the ring in the way Gandalf The Grey did, let alone the more potent Gandalf The White and could Brom have managed to pierce through Sauron’s hold on Frodo to tell him to take the ring off while battling with the Dark Lord?
The problem with LOTR and Inheritance is that the magic is very different, LOTR magic is much more subtle but potent all the same and on top of that, Brom battles in a very different manner to Gandalf in terms of magic
It seems that things are unfair here, as a Maiar in all of his power, Gandalf would rip Brom apart without a second thought, but the Gandalf used is always the one who is forbidden from using his power, all he has are a minimal set of canon spells (like lighting the fire in the FOTR) and his strong will to get by on.
The problem I think,is that people think of Gandalf as a traditional wizard.He is not,he is an Istari,they are quite distinct from wizards and magicians of other legends.Gandalf did not get his power from a book of spells or from long secret study.His power come from him being a Maia.In his full power he would win any battle against a traditional wizard.
@George
“@ blood dancer, I am new here true,but I can post here if I like,just like you.”
Never said otherwise. I just don’t see you as a piler.
You can call me a douche or an ass. Many have done it before, but that’s who I am.
@Michael
Testy? Nah. I don’t mind it if you post or Liquor posts. But to consider someone a piler? Matapiojo is a piler, Expert is a piler, OriginalA is a piler, Diana is a piler, Megaraptor and Kenny C. are pilers as well as Krazycrismore, Galorian or Hitman94 and Envoy or my friend Jwlynas. These are the ones that I could name off the top of my head. There some more that I view as pilers.
@ Blood Dancer what makes someone a real piler then?
@george liquor
I’m guessing a few dozen stars for starters
@Ian
Mike has those but i doubt anyone sees him in that light.
@George
Posting is not enough. All those I named have done something that put them out there. Something that makes them recognizable. Take me for example, I tend to go on venom spitting routines while managing to get my act together and debate seriously without resorting to insults.
@blood dancer
Ya your right, but that’s why I included the for starters part.
Do you consider me a piler?
I don’t think that all I did was post,I give facts about Gandalf,his origin and his power’s.That’s all I or anyone else can do,give the facts.If that’s not enough,then what is?
“he’d either find himself running into a brick wall ”
More like a wall of steel. With spikes.
So who wins? I’m going with Gandalf
My vote is for Gandalf.
Unfortunately votes don’t constitute the win but rather a good debate and this one has been rather dry, so I doubt this match will conclude in an FP award.
@Blood Dancer
Sounds like you need to be devoted to the site AND write your own gimmick of sorts or a signature and stick with it. :p
@Joshman
Contribute to the site’s growth in one way or another.
Stupid new login…
@blood dancer
You havnt answered my question yet
I have to agree I lost half of my old account
My vote is for Gandalf. For those who don’t know LotR lore, Gandalf is one of five Istari, embodied Maiar (spirits, some form of lesser Angels, while Valar are Archangels) sent to Middleearth to oppose Sauron (who was Maiar himself); they have bodies that can be damaged or killed, but they are extremely powerful – each is as strong as Sauron is, or even maybe stronger, but they are not allowed to use their powers openly unless no other option exists. Thus they usually just wander around giving advice and guidance to anyone willing to oppose Sauron.
Balrogs also were Maiars seduced by fallen Vala Morgoth and they were in his service during First Age of Arda. Some of them survived Morgoth’s fall at end of First Age (after Valars attacked Morgoth), and remained hidden.
So Brom cannot kill Gandalf, but question is whether Gandalf (Olorin, Mithrandir) decide to use his true power. If he does use it, Brom is cooked and baked. If not, then Brom *might* be able to force stalemate.
LotR literature for those who want to know more:
Lord of the Rings trilogy: The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King
Other:
Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, Hobbit, Children of Hurin, History of Middle Earth volumes 1-12
Books by other authors (not J. R. R. or Christopher Tolkien):
The Logistics of Minas Tirith by Anders Blixt
The Biology of Middle Earth by Friedhelm Schneidewind
Tolkien Atlas of Middle Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad
@Blood
Do you consider me a piler? Just curious. I know I don’t post much here, but I think I have made myself a “member of the family” In the Topia at least
To the debate……honestly I have nothing new to bring up about either of them (I only watched the LoTR movies [though I know them by heart.......I used to watch the hell out of those films as a kid]but never read the book, and I haven’t read Eragon or even seen the film)
have we just assumed that gandalf wins this?
Actually, I think I have used facts to prove that Gandalf should win.The truth is that Gandalf is to power for a traditional wizard.Gandalf is an immortal Maia from Valinor.He lived before the world was made.He has fought in some major battles, from the war of wrath in the first age,to the war of the ring in the third age.I just don’t see how he would this fight.
lose this fight
Saying that Gandalf wins because he is a Maia is an Association Fallacy. Read the rules of Fact Pile here. Just because it is known Maia have certain capabilities does not mean Gandalf does with them – unless there is proof of this ie. Gandalf actually using his powers as a Maia.
Furthermore, this is Brom vs Gandalf, not Brom vs Olorin. We are using the earth-based wizard form for this match.
@ Eric,I did not say that Gandalf would win simply because he is a Maia.I wrote in my post more than that,his experience,the thousands and thousands of years he has lived.His battle experience,all the wars he has fought in.Your right I don’t know all the powers he has as a Maia,that because he was not allowed to use them.But I suspect that he is far stronger than what we saw in LOTR.
Well we know Gandalf’s far stronger than we see/read in LoTR as mentioned before he has been forbidden from using his full power. The problem is we really don’t see Brom or Gandalf do anything we can really use as a sense of how powerful they are. It’s like comprehending the power of a nuclear blast. Without the necessary learning, people simply know it’s an extremely potent force, but they can’t say how potent it is compared to something else.
Now what I find odd is that people are saying that the Elder Dragons of Alagaesia can easily defeat a Balrog. That is the same type of thinking people are complaining about just on the other side. Prove it or don’t claim it at all.
I’m making no claims here as to who wins as my views would be horribly biased. I personally think the Inheritance Trilogy is a completely unoriginal story that has to steal it’s ideas and names wholesale from many different stories especially Lord of the Rings. Seriously look at some of the names of locations, places and even people in the Inheritance Trilogy and then look at the names in LotRs.
On another point, I think Blood Dancer needs to lose the elitest attitude before he posts again. “Oh I don’t consider their posts valid as these people don’t count as Pilers to me!” Nice logic fail. Who cares what you think, if a post has a valid point then it’s valid, doesn’t matter who wrote it. Yes, often newer people make some mistakes about posting without doing some research, but that’s because they’re new. If they learn and stick around then I’d say that makes them a factpiler. If they don’t then they’ll eventually just leave.
Placing yourself and a select group of people above others because you think for some reason that because they have more posts and have been here longer makes them their arguments more valid is incredibly narcissistic and arrogant. Some of the people you mentioned have made their share of stupid posts at one time or another.
“Saying that Gandalf wins because he is a Maia is an Association Fallacy. Read the rules of Fact Pile here. Just because it is known Maia have certain capabilities does not mean Gandalf does with them – unless there is proof of this ie. Gandalf actually using his powers as a Maia.”
THANK YOU. I am absolutely sick of
“Gandalf is a god, he will win”
“Gandalf beat a balrog, he will win”.
The main problem is IMO that Gandalf’s use of magic is pretty vague. We never see him running scared, or what techniques he use against something he does not know for sure he can defeat. His toughest battles are more or less simply refered to. In the fight with Nazgul at weathertop we never really learn what Gandalf actually did to drive the Nazgul away, the same with the mindbattle vs Sauron to save Frodo. He seemed to somehow draw Saurons attention to himself long enough for Frodo not to be dicovered, and ended up in “dark thoughts” for a while. Also in the balrog fight, we never know what happened (in the book) after they fell down form the brigde at Khazad-Dum. We never see Gandalfs true potensial either, but if he risks death vs Brom, he might unleash everything he has. And as Blood Dancer pointed out, even Anduril cannot harm Gandalf after his “death” in the balrog fight.
Brom easily.
Gandalf has some okay tricks (like pushing people away, being protected from fire, and making light) but brom has very deadly magic as anyone who actually read Paolinis books has seen.
If Brom and Gandalf had a discussion about their magic, Gandalf would be like “what’s a ward? and what the heck is a counter? holy crap you guys shoot lightning and freeze people? all i do is knock you over and shoot light.”
Plus Brom has his agility and youth and is a way better swordsman, oh let’s not forget the red sword (forgot its name) could pretty much cut right through any defense gandalf might conjure.
Now if only Guardian Angel were here to discuss more on this fight, itself, then we would be sure that there’s something worthwhile to discuss that isn’t(at least directly) pertaining to Eragon, himself.
Dude, Gandalf is a freaking DIVINE BEING! Also, they can’t show their true form to men while in the campaign against Sauron, but I don’t think Manwe would care if Gandalf used his true power to beat Brom. On top of that, Gandalf can deflect and control Brom’s fire attacks (I think those are Brom’s specialty, not sure) and no one has ever touched in battle Gandalf except Saruman and Sauron.
“Now what I find odd is that people are saying that the Elder Dragons of Alagaesia can easily defeat a Balrog. That is the same type of thinking people are complaining about just on the other side. Prove it or don’t claim it at all.”
.
Fine. The elder dragon Belgabad’s was described posthumously:
Inheritance pg. 499:
The biggest he saw was a skeleton with ribs that he guessed were at least eighty feet long and perhaps fifteen wide at their thickest. The skull alone – a huge, fierce thing covered with blotches of lichen, like a rough craf of stone – was longer and taller than the main part of Saphira’s body.
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Many people, like me, need a visual reference. Here you go. Photobucket downsized it majorly, so I’ll describe – The picture in the top left is saphira and eragon (same pic as enlarged. Going off approximate height of Eragon as 5’6″ (average height of a male in medieval times), we get the 80ft line for Belgabad. If Gandalf was 5’11″ (height of Ian McKellen) then the Balrog is as shown compared to Belgabad.
@Eric
Woh.
@Eric: That’s not the match.