Suggested by Soldier’s Shadow
Been a while since either character had a match on the Pile, so let’s have two of the most powerful characters from their respective worlds collide!
Darth Vader arrives from Star Wars ready to enforce his will upon Sephiroth of Final Fantasy.
Who wins this smackdown?
So, CIDE, Pyre and myself are the current nominees for the award…
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Anymore?
Would get mine, but I don’t see any way Darth vader could stand a chance.
Same here.
“Would get mine, but I don’t see any way Darth vader could stand a chance.”
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Even EU Vader? That’s the one I had in mind for this match and that seems to be the one that was debated for against Sephy.
“Even EU Vader? That’s the one I had in mind for this match and that seems to be the one that was debated for against Sephy.”
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Vader is hardly more powerful in EU really EU makes alot of characters Uber like Luke and Palpatine, but Vader still seems Vader. He’s never been too impressive really.
“Vader is hardly more powerful in EU really EU makes alot of characters Uber like Luke and Palpatine, but Vader still seems Vader. He’s never been too impressive really.”
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While that maybe true Vader seems more on Sephiroth’s level than either of those as Luke is pretty damn beastly, perhaps too much so for Sephy at his height.
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Palpatine maybe more even than Vader against Seph though.
In terms of the physical Sephiroth still stands far above either. Above anything in Star Wars Canon in fact. It’s the psionics that come into question on that one.
can’t vader just own seph with the force powers?
That was the consensus but somehow Vader ‘lost’
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And admin! Did you get my Ninja Master Gara vs Sephiroth request?!
“can’t vader just own seph with the force powers?”
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Yeah, because no one’s brought that up…
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Thing is it was clearly demonstrated throughout this thread that in order to “own” someone through the force they have to have no means left to defend themselves from TK. Basically, he’d need to weaken the target if said target has TK powers of their own.
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Considering the mechanics of Sephiroth’s powers too they match up relatively well to the Force. Even the bit about how it encompasses the entire known universe rather than a single planet as originally thought in the game.
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So it came down to Vader defending against Sephiroth’s far, far, far, far superior physical abilities and more versatile psi/magic set up. Like…transmutation, time stops, etc.
“Yeah, because no one’s brought that up…”
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seriously!!? no one brought up Vader’s only offense(especially force choke) that’s crazy no wonder seph’s gay ass is winning. If I was a star wars nerd I’d defend vader
“Thing is it was clearly demonstrated throughout this thread that in order to “own” someone through the force they have to have no means left to defend themselves from TK. Basically, he’d need to weaken the target if said target has TK powers of their own.”
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I thought you needed equal TK to counter and since when has Sephiroth shown equal TK to Vader?
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“Considering the mechanics of Sephiroth’s powers too they match up relatively well to the Force. Even the bit about how it encompasses the entire known universe rather than a single planet as originally thought in the game.”
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Lambaste me if you will but where was this brought up?
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“Sephiroth’s far, far, far, far superior physical abilities”
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Pre-cog makes speed irrelevant and given they start at range pre-cog would work and Vader has some leverage
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But i do agree Vader would lose in CQC
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“more versatile psi/magic set up. Like…transmutation, time stops, etc.”
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I recall in Dante vs Sephiroth that they needed time to charge, with pre-cog Vader would see whats coming and use one of his force attacks against Sephiroth, which would be lethal
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And do Sephiroth have time stops or half the materia people say he has such as Death, Stop, Slow, etc?
Again….WHY can’t Vader just Force Crush Sephiroth into a human baseball?
@NZ
b3c0z $3ph1r0th 1$ $00p@h f@$t!!!11!!! trololo
“b3c0z $3ph1r0th 1$ $00p@h f@$t!!!11!!! trololo”
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Yup, just lost a brain cell trying to read this.
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“Again….WHY can’t Vader just Force Crush Sephiroth into a human baseball?”
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I ask that question for pretty much every telekinetic in fiction i see.
“I ask that question for pretty much every telekinetic in fiction i see.”
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Meh, or why Vader could make Sephiroth implode
Well has there ever been a case where a Jedi or Sith lord has imploded someone with the force? It’s best to stick with what we know Darth Vader can do, rather than think of what maybe probable.
“Well has there ever been a case where a Jedi or Sith lord has imploded someone with the force? It’s best to stick with what we know Darth Vader can do, rather than think of what maybe probable.”
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Obi-Wan imploding Durge
“Well has there ever been a case where a Jedi or Sith lord has imploded someone with the force?”
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Only seems to be the case when the force user was in the thing being exploded.
Vader could easily use force crush on Sephiroth. I just doubt it would be successful. Doesn’t Sephiroth have tremendous durability? I believe he does.
“Only seems to be the case when the force user was in the thing being exploded.”
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And then theres the shatterpoints technique, where force users can shatter things
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“Vader could easily use force crush on Sephiroth. I just doubt it would be successful. ”
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How so?
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“Doesn’t Sephiroth have tremendous durability? I believe he does.”
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What durability feats does he have?
@Stealth
Obi-Wan was inside Durge when he made him explode, so you cant say that counts.
“Obi-Wan was inside Durge when he made him explode, so you cant say that counts.”
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I found out about the shatterpoints technique where force users can implode things if they can find a weakness
“What durability feats does he have?”
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Pretty sure I listed it on Dante vs. Sephiroth. Sephiroth pretty much got several direct hits from Cloud’s building-bashing sword in ACC and still stayed together. Well, granted that he died afterward, but it should still count for something.
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Also, I think the current questions have been answered somewhere in the previous pages. Mostly by Pyre, if I remember correctly.
Meh, Vader has crushed AT-ST’s and TIE fighters made of durasteel (which is 300,000x stronger than steel), and even if he can’t fully crush Sephiroth he can always target specific body parts to crush such as the heart or the brain
“And then theres the shatterpoints technique, where force users can shatter things”
-That technique “shatters” certain chains of events, not physical objects, though.
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“What durability feats does he have?”
-I’m pretty sure he was able to fall a very long distance and land with his feet causing a huge dent in steel, among other things. I’m not too knowledgeable, but I learned a bit about it on the Cloud Strife & Sephiroth Vs Illidan & Arthas thread. Zazax was very helpful in that discussion. I’m sure he would be here, too.
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Yeah, I’ve found it: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s1VyV3OP4Q
Start watching at 0:55. The color is inverted or something, but you can still see the feat quite well.
“That technique “shatters” certain chains of events, not physical objects, though.”
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I found that force users such as Cade Skywalker used it to shatter objects
@SR
There’s something about Sephiroth being a metaphysical entity or an astral projection, as that’s how he was in Advent Children. I’m quite sure the same question was answered earlier during the thread. Talk to CIDE about it if he decides to come back to the thread, but at the very least make sure you know the counter-argument well enough so you know if yours still stands.
“There’s something about Sephiroth being a metaphysical entity or an astral projection, as that’s how he was in Advent Children”
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Yeah i heard something about that as the reason why he doesn’t lose limbs or receive physical damage
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Although he can be damaged by physical weapons and all so im somehow thinking force techniques of Vaders will be lethal as Vader has TK superior to Sephiroth
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“Talk to CIDE about it if he decides to come back to the thread, but at the very least make sure you know the counter-argument well enough so you know if yours still stands.”
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Very well
“I found that force users such as Cade Skywalker used it to shatter objects”
-Hmm. Didn’t know about that.
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“Meh, Vader has crushed AT-ST’s and TIE fighters made of durasteel (which is 300,000x stronger than steel)”
-Has proof of durasteel’s strength and Vader crushing it already been posted? If not, could you get it? I think that may win him the match, right there.
“Well has there ever been a case where a Jedi or Sith lord has imploded someone with the force?”
Starkiller has imploded AT-STs before with Force Crush.
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Also, why wouldn’t Force Choke be just as good again?
“Also, why wouldn’t Force Choke be just as good again?”
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Targets that are affected are shown to be physically weakened first, before that can even work. Plus apparently all someone needs to block it is impressive enough TK. I swear, the debate didn’t get this far without having answered questions, that people have been posting since the first page.
“Targets that are affected are shown to be physically weakened first, before that can even work.”
Heh heh….no. Vader has Force Choked people that were not weakened in any way. He’s choked one of his own men through a fucking moniter screen before.
Yep.
@Stealth & Negative Zero
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Did either of you even read the entirety of this debate to understand why Vader lost? Doesn’t seem that way…
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“I thought you needed equal TK to counter and since when has Sephiroth shown equal TK to Vader?”
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Going by the Extended Universe and Force Unleashed, Vader never demonstrated showing the ability to force crush a healthy TK using opponent. He didn’t do it to Marek’s dad, he didn’t do it to those Jedi that beat his ass on Kessel (where his pre-cog failed him) and Merkhana. Granted he was still getting used to his armor at this point (Merkhana) but that shouldn’t have stopped his force powers from working.
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“Pre-cog makes speed irrelevant and given they start at range pre-cog would work and Vader has some leverage”
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Bullshit. Throw a pre-cog Force user against a supersonic or hypersonic character and they’ll be overwhelmed just fine. Show me a character in SW who moves at those speeds at all. They can react to blasters which are apparently only on the same speed as bullets but fire enough blasters and they’ll be overwhelmed by sheer volume for the most part.
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Prime example, Aayla Secura got killed by a squad of what looked like 8 Clones despite her pre-cog. Grievous completely overwhelmed four Jedi including Shak Ti (I think it was her) and Ki-Adi-Mundi in the Clone Wars just because he was too fast and too agile for them and at least one of them is a Jedi Master.
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From what’s known, Sephiroth’s above Grievous and far above Vader in speed, agility and maneuverability. Do the math.
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“I recall in Dante vs Sephiroth that they needed time to charge, with pre-cog Vader would see whats coming and use one of his force attacks against Sephiroth, which would be lethal”
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Pale Horse and Supernova need charging. I don’t recall Break needing any. Also, as shown in Advent Children, spells require little cast time so Sephiroth could bombard Vader with other spells like Quake or Bolt.
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“Meh, Vader has crushed AT-ST’s and TIE fighters made of durasteel (which is 300,000x stronger than steel),”
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I HATE to use this as an example because I’ll probably be bitched at but… If durasteel AT-ST’s are 300Kx stronger than steel…. Why were they destroyed by two logs smashing into them? Were the logs emitting the same power as turbolasers? Just asking.
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“I found that force users such as Cade Skywalker used it to shatter objects”
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Bring proof that Vader can do this, bub.
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” Vader has TK superior to Sephiroth”
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Yet he couldn’t use Force Crush on those Jedi in my above examples… Nor in most EU instances from what I gather.
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“Heh heh….no. Vader has Force Choked people that were not weakened in any way. He’s choked one of his own men through a fucking moniter screen before.”
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Wow, didn’t know Imperial officers have TK powers like Jedi!
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No, they don’t and that’s why Vader was able to crush them like ants just fine as opposed to Jedi, who with their inferior in, some cases, TK have resisted Force Choke/Crush.
“I swear, the debate didn’t get this far without having answered questions, that people have been posting since the first page.”
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Hence why I asked if anyone disputing the verdict actually read the debate before spitting out outdated claims.
“Zazax was very helpful in that discussion. I’m sure he would be here, too.”
Egad, it appears I have been summoned. How’s it going, Soulerous?
“Also, why wouldn’t Force Choke be just as good again?”
There’s the argument Soldier’s Shadow has presented, but there’s also the fact that Sephiroth is less of a physical being and more a projection of energy at this point (note that while being slashed to hell by Omnislash 2 at the end of Soulerous’ video, he’s not bleeding or displaying any actual wounds, despite Cloud very clearly bleeding earlier). We don’t even know if Vader is capable of affecting a being like Sephiroth with the Force, let alone if being choked would affect Sephiroth in the slightest, seeing as he’s already dead.
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“Meh, Vader has crushed AT-ST’s and TIE fighters made of durasteel (which is 300,000x stronger than steel)”
A few things here. I’ve never actually seen a source for the 300,000 times stronger than steel bit. And even if one is provided, stronger how, exactly? Tensile strength? Heat absorption? Hardness? These are all different ways to make something stronger, but not all of them would make a lick of difference against something imploding you.
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Then there’s Sephiroth’s magic to consider. Supernova and Heartless Angel (his two most well-known moves) wouldn’t likely be very useful here, but he has a number that would. Due to Vader’s nature, Break, Pale Horse, and whichever Bolt variant Sephiroth has (Bolt2, I think?) would all be one-shot kills (and Break and Bolt take as long to use as it takes Sephiroth to extend his hand. Mind you, this is someone who can move his arms fast enough to deflect bullets). It would not at all surprise me if Sephiroth could get his first spell cast before Vader even has started choking him. Hooray for Speed Blitz.
For those not in the know, the Bolt tree of spells are all lightning bolts of varying intensity (and we know that Force Lightning is the absolute bane of Vader’s life support), Break is petrification (as in turning to stone), and Pale Horse is a whole number of things including but not limited to being turned into a frog (at least I think thats Pale Horse. If not, he does have a spell that does that).
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If we’re including Sephiroth’s other forms in this (namely, his Bizarro and Safer forms) he also has regenerative capability (including the ability to regrow his own head) and standard healing magic that he can use on himself. In Crisis Core we see him teleporting around during his fight with Zack in the Nibelheim reactor.
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And, of course, this is all assuming Sephiroth isn’t using materia. If he is, Vader doesn’t even have a snowball’s chance in hell.
Hey, look at that. Welcome, Zazax. I trust you’ve been well.
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Considering Vader is quite slow, at least compared to other force users, and certainly not a bullet-timer like Sephiroth, I would hazard a guess that he gets terminated the split-second after the fight starts.
“seriously!!? no one brought up Vader’s only offense(especially force choke) that’s crazy no wonder seph’s gay ass is winning. If I was a star wars nerd I’d defend vader”
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Sarcasm.
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“I thought you needed equal TK to counter and since when has Sephiroth shown equal TK to Vader?”
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Even mook force users could keep from going down by a (comparatively) pathetic force choke. Sephiroth’s feats just have to match those. Which they do at the moment.
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“Lambaste me if you will but where was this brought up?”
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I brought it up somewher in this debate. I think with the links to the audio-books I provided too.
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“Pre-cog makes speed irrelevant and given they start at range pre-cog would work and Vader has some leverage
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But i do agree Vader would lose in CQC”
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Eh, it was more a way to counter the precog. Vader may see the blows coming but Sephiroth would probably never be hit by Vader’s in turn as he’s too slow.
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“I recall in Dante vs Sephiroth that they needed time to charge, with pre-cog Vader would see whats coming and use one of his force attacks against Sephiroth, which would be lethal”
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Depends entirely on the power. Using Advent Children as a frame of reference for spell casting in real time it takes no longer than some force powers we’ve seen before.
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“And do Sephiroth have time stops or half the materia people say he has such as Death, Stop, Slow, etc?”
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That depends on how you see the bit from the audio-book as well as dialogue. It states Sephiroth has access to anything you can find in the lifestream as far as powers go (I.E. all known materia). We just don’t see him use everything.
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Which…COULD possibly be PIS (as a single casting of Knights of the round would slaughter the FFVII team in and outside of gameplay) but I’m not sure on that. It would make sense with the issue on him playing around with the FFVII cast.
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“Again….WHY can’t Vader just Force Crush Sephiroth into a human baseball?”
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Why not read the debate?
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“Well has there ever been a case where a Jedi or Sith lord has imploded someone with the force? It’s best to stick with what we know Darth Vader can do, rather than think of what maybe probable.”
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This too.
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“Vader could easily use force crush on Sephiroth. I just doubt it would be successful. Doesn’t Sephiroth have tremendous durability? I believe he does.”
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As well as his own telekinesis.
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Hell, in current incarnation his entire body is purely a psionic manifestation.
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“And then theres the shatterpoints technique, where force users can shatter things”
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IIRC this was rare. Has Vader been shown using it?
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“Meh, Vader has crushed AT-ST’s and TIE fighters made of durasteel (which is 300,000x stronger than steel), and even if he can’t fully crush Sephiroth he can always target specific body parts to crush such as the heart or the brain”
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Feats for durasteel durability, pleezz. Heard it before but never saw evidence.
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“-I’m pretty sure he was able to fall a very long distance and land with his feet causing a huge dent in steel, among other things. I’m not too knowledgeable, but I learned a bit about it on the Cloud Strife & Sephiroth Vs Illidan & Arthas thread. Zazax was very helpful in that discussion. I’m sure he would be here, too.”
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Actually, it was Cloud’s blow to him that dented the roof of the building. Sephiroth actually landed very gracefully and lifted his sword to block.
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“I found that force users such as Cade Skywalker used it to shatter objects”
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Yea, but what about Vader?
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“Although he can be damaged by physical weapons and all so im somehow thinking force techniques of Vaders will be lethal as Vader has TK superior to Sephiroth”
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Cloud’s attack wasn’t pure physical force however. It did “physical” damage during gameplay but I hardly think the ability to fart out meteors for a human is realistic in any way. Or to call down a laser from a sattelite that doesn’t actually exist.
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“Heh heh….no. Vader has Force Choked people that were not weakened in any way. He’s choked one of his own men through a fucking moniter screen before.”
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Yes, but to do the same thing against others with telekinesis they all had to be weakened first. THAT is the point we’re trying to bring up.
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“Did either of you even read the entirety of this debate to understand why Vader lost? Doesn’t seem that way…”
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I was wondering the same thing.
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“They can react to blasters which are apparently only on the same speed as bullets but fire enough blasters and they’ll be overwhelmed by sheer volume for the most part. ”
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Slower depending on which movie scene we use.
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“I HATE to use this as an example because I’ll probably be bitched at but… If durasteel AT-ST’s are 300Kx stronger than steel…. Why were they destroyed by two logs smashing into them? Were the logs emitting the same power as turbolasers? Just asking. ”
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The claim I’ve seen (no proof) was that they were made of titanium. OInly the feet were durasteel.
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“There’s the argument Soldier’s Shadow has presented, but there’s also the fact that Sephiroth is less of a physical being and more a projection of energy at this point (note that while being slashed to hell by Omnislash 2 at the end of Soulerous’ video, he’s not bleeding or displaying any actual wounds, despite Cloud very clearly bleeding earlier). We don’t even know if Vader is capable of affecting a being like Sephiroth with the Force, let alone if being choked would affect Sephiroth in the slightest, seeing as he’s already dead.”
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I would imagine the force could damage him in the same way limit breaks/materia could hurt him. At least…ASSUMING Materia can hurt him since no one used any against him during Advent Children.
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So…anyone asks for the match to be revived?
LMAO, newb arguments coming back to haunt me O_o
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Anyways, after reading the thread several times and thinking things through I revise my statement on this match
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Vader is hugely outclassed in strength and speed by Sephiroth, durability is moot given Sephiroth can level skyscrapers with his blows and since Sephiroth has telekinesis to defend himself from TK and force crushing, Vader can’t insta pwn him and Sephiroth has vastly superior stamina to Vader, as such Sephiroth would win in attrition if anything
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So yeah, without any reliable way to one shot Sephiroth and being too slow to land a hit also coupled with being inferior in terms of strength, speed and stamina, Vader loses
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So I revise my statement as vote Sephiroth for the FP Award
You know, Vader has this truly amazing power that I’ve never really understood.
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Fans of his will continue to shout “force choke”, all day long in any Vs he’s in, and insist that it somehow makes him win, no madder if his enemy even needs to breathe in the first place……
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I know absolutely nothing about “Sephiroth”, but just seeing that he’s an end boss from a Final Fantasy game tells me all I need to know about Vader’s chances against this guy.
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+1 for Sephiroth.
Btw, anyone noticed that that’s not actually Sephiroth in that pic of him?
Not Sephiroth? It certainly looks like him. Who is it then, pray tell?
browse.deviantart.com/?order=9&q=Sephiroth&offset=24#/d2dr6ey
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Its actually a cosplayer on DeviantArt
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Ugh, she looks so much like Sephiroth in that pic
Holy crap. I could have sworn that was CGI. Nice find. Cosplayers never cease to amaze me… in one form or another.
I know, I was searching for Sephiroth pics on DA and I see this pic and im like “Oh look, its that image on Vader vs Sephiroth *clicks*”
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And then I clicked on the poster’s username and noticed her cosplay pics and im like “holy crap, she looks soooo much like Sephiroth in that pic”
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Anywhom Sephiroth for the FP Award
“Ugh, she looks so much like Sephiroth in that pic”
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“she”
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BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Isn’t Vader’s reactions far above Sephy? Not to mention Sephy doesn’t have resistance against the LS?
Perhaps, but that doesn’t change the fact that Sephiroth can one-shot him and Darthy can’t do a thing about it.
EU isn’t canon here Lightning.
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Heathens.
“EU isn’t canon here Lightning.”
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Well Soldiers Shadow chose EU Vader for this match, as stated at the top of this page:
“Even EU Vader? That’s the one I had in mind for this match and that seems to be the one that was debated for against Sephy.”
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@Stealth
After reading this page and your initial arguments for Vader… well, I’ll try not to let you forget you thought Vader could beat Sephiroth xD
Um sure… scary how earlier posts can come back to haunt you O_o (srsly what was I thinking?)
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Anyways Sephiroth for the FP Award
Lolwut?
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EU Vader?
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Fuck, let me go get feats, he stomps this.
Go on then, +1 for Sephiroth.
EU Vader’s has Mach 19000 reactions. Wth is Sephy going to do? Get slashed to shreds?
“EU Vader’s has Mach 19000 reactions”
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?
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Sephiroth can fly and Vader can’t. Sephiroth also has petrification, polymorphing, insta death and dimensional banishment spells (Zazax gave info on them in Sephiroth vs Dresden on them)
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With Vader’s telekinesis not being an insta-win for him as Sephiroth also has telekinesis to defend himself, how does Vader counter Sephiroth simply flying and using any one of those spells on him, BFRing or one shotting him?
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As for CQC Sephiroth is far stronger than Vader and can teleport around him
As I said, counts for shit when Vader’s reactions would allow him to predict all that especially with pre-cog.
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I would debate but I’m going to bed. I’ll post the calc tomorrow.
“EU Vader’s has Mach 19000 reactions. Wth is Sephy going to do? Get slashed to shreds?”
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If all Force Users had that stupidly high levels of reactions, then EU Star Wars matches here are in need of some serious evaluation because last I heard and remember, nothing in SW even moves stupidly fast except starships when they jump to lightspeed. Until we get the calcs for this and the sources, I won’t buy this calc.
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“As I said, counts for shit when Vader’s reactions would allow him to predict all that especially with pre-cog.”
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I believe the point of superior reactions = curbstomp was discussed in Sephiroth vs Kratos. Hard to summize but I will bring forth that argument later.
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Vader also has no means of causing harm to Sephiroth without him getting close, superior reactions or not. Sephy can fly out of range, spam his blade beams, magic attacks, and charge up big ones like Pale Horse or Break which are OHKO. Vader can block whatever but he will tire out and he won’t be making any runs for it at his 2 miles a year movement speed.
@Soldier’s Shadow
I believe the point of superior reactions = curbstomp was discussed in Sephiroth vs Kratos. Hard to summize but I will bring forth that argument later.
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^ “as he entered a vast room, the glow instantly blossomed into a blinding glare,,brighter than the chariot of helios at mid day. kratos shielded his eyes with one enormous arm until the brilliance faded enough that he could bear to look upon it. immediately ahead was a huge door with the sirgil of Poseidon on it. in fron of the crest gleamed a shaft thrust into stone. “the trident of Poseidon,” kratos said, looking about as he advanced. his caution saved his life as red beams swept across the room,driving him away from the trident. somersaulting, he came to his feet and faced a wraith. he reached back for the blades of chaos but instead drew the weapon he had been gifted by Artemis,turning its broad blade sideways to reflect the red beams. everything touched by the reflected wraith light sizzled.”-god of war novel
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I’m sorry but i heard you mention reaction times. kratos reacted to light beams without knowing where they came from.
Take it elsewhere, Gendrons.
@Soldier’s Shadow
. So how do we quantify dodging light beams around here any way?
Fine
“Bullshit. Throw a pre-cog Force user against a supersonic or hypersonic character and they’ll be overwhelmed just fine. Show me a character in SW who moves at those speeds at all. They can react to blasters which are apparently only on the same speed as bullets but fire enough blasters and they’ll be overwhelmed by sheer volume for the most part.
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Prime example, Aayla Secura got killed by a squad of what looked like 8 Clones despite her pre-cog. Grievous completely overwhelmed four Jedi including Shak Ti (I think it was her) and Ki-Adi-Mundi in the Clone Wars just because he was too fast and too agile for them and at least one of them is a Jedi Master.”
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Bad example there. This match is for EU Vader, sop therefore EU feats. You gave examples of movie canon that weren’t even Vader.
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“Yet he couldn’t use Force Crush on those Jedi in my above examples… Nor in most EU instances from what I gather.”
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You can’t claim that either. Not can’t, but was never shown to. Vader has force crushed Imperial officers and Mace Windu force crushed Greivous’ lung. What’s stopping the same results against a TK user again? If its because he the opponents TK will “fight it back” then I fail to see how this stops Vader. If it turns into a sort of TK battle while Vader tries to crush, and Sephi tries to prevent it, then feats need to be brought in to see who is the stronger TK user. That should go to Vader, and his TK strength should overwhelm Sephioth’s.
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” It would not at all surprise me if Sephiroth could get his first spell cast before Vader even has started choking him. Hooray for Speed Blitz.”
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Vader has precog though. Sorry I know this has been brought up.
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“For those not in the know, the Bolt tree of spells are all lightning bolts of varying intensity (and we know that Force Lightning is the absolute bane of Vader’s life support)”
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Force lightning and regular lightning aren’t the same. It would severely damage him if it hit. But precog prevents that. And also Vader’s ability to defend himself against lightning prevents that
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I’m pretty sure Sephiroth still wins this though…
“Bad example there. This match is for EU Vader, sop therefore EU feats. You gave examples of movie canon that weren’t even Vader.”
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EU includes movies so it sticks.
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“What’s stopping the same results against a TK user again? If its because he the opponents TK will “fight it back” then I fail to see how this stops Vader. If it turns into a sort of TK battle while Vader tries to crush, and Sephi tries to prevent it, then feats need to be brought in to see who is the stronger TK user. That should go to Vader, and his TK strength should overwhelm Sephioth’s.”
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Yet Vader has shown that he couldn’t just TK crush those beneath him in the past.
“EU includes movies so it sticks.”
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That wasn’t the point. Yes your example was a valid one, but no it isn’t a “prime example” because it didn’t incorporate any of the events outside of the movies (point of having this match EU) which is basically showing the bare minimum strength wise for force users in general and then applying it to EUVader making him appear weaker than he is.
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Also several Jedi you did not include in your list did use precog to escape order 66. Prime example: Yoda.
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“Yet Vader has shown that he couldn’t just TK crush those beneath him in the past.”
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My response to this statement was already posted above. You didn’t answer my question. Like is said, its not that hes incapable of force crushing people. He has force crushed people, so whats the difference if they have TK or not? I said this same exact thing right up there^
“That wasn’t the point. Yes your example was a valid one, but no it isn’t a “prime example” because it didn’t incorporate any of the events outside of the movies (point of having this match EU) which is basically showing the bare minimum strength wise for force users in general and then applying it to EUVader making him appear weaker than he is.”
EU+Film continuity, thus SS’ argument stands
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“He has force crushed people, so whats the difference if they have TK or not?”
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As Pyre and CIDE have said earlier in the thread, Vader never demonstrated the ability to do this to a regular force user because they had telekinesis to defend themselves from force crushing. The only time Vader has ever done this to any force user is when they were too tired/injured to the point where they can’t fight back
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Sephiroth has telekinesis to defend himself from force crushing and TK rape and while a lightsaber hit would severely injure Seph, Vader has to land that hit, which will be damn near impossible against a bullet timer like Sephiroth who is also far stronger than Vader and has far greater stamina
“Sephiroth has telekinesis to defend himself from force crushing and TK rape and while a lightsaber hit would severely injure Seph, Vader has to land that hit, which will be damn near impossible against a bullet timer like Sephiroth who is also far stronger than Vader and has far greater stamina”
Don’t forget he has magic too.
“Don’t forget he has magic too.”
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Yeah I know, but I don’t think Sephiroth really needs it to win given he stands far above Vader in physical power alone
“EU+Film continuity, thus SS’ argument stands”
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I never contested this in my response. I even said its a valid example, but a rather biased one in the context he posted it.
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“As Pyre and CIDE have said earlier in the thread, Vader never demonstrated the ability to do this to a regular force user because they had telekinesis to defend themselves from force crushing. The only time Vader has ever done this to any force user is when they were too tired/injured to the point where they can’t fight back”
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This is what I was getting at. He has demonstrated it on a regular being. In order to prevent himself from being crushed, Sephiroth would have to have TK strength equal to or greater than that of Vaders.
Vader doesn’t need to be shown force crushing or force wounding a force user because we know he can do it. He has force gripped and force choked force users yes? The ability to apply pressure to a specific organ is the same as a force choke just localized to a different region. They are all just variations of force crush. Force choke is crushing the persons throat and force wound is crushing a persons vital organ. They are all the same.
So since there’s elemental compatibility, Sephiroths TK must be compatible with the force (a given)
So, the question is, if Vader crushes Sephiroth’s heart, how would he fight back?
“So, the question is, if Vader crushes Sephiroth’s heart, how would he fight back?”
-That is the question. I was under the impression that Sephiroth is made of energy, though. So follow up question is: Would Sephiroth even die?
~
Beyond that, Sephy can still kill Vader but a moment after the fight begins. I add my vote to Sephiroth for the FactPile Award.
“-That is the question. I was under the impression that Sephiroth is made of energy, though. So follow up question is: Would Sephiroth even die?”
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If he’s made out of energy, then how did a sword cut him? I’m not saying you’re wrong, but just that he isn’t necessarily intangible/un-hurtable/I-spelled-that-last-word-wrong.
“If he’s made out of energy, then how did a sword cut him? I’m not saying you’re wrong, but just that he isn’t necessarily intangible/un-hurtable/I-spelled-that-last-word-wrong.”
-Oh, he’s not at all intangible. I believe Zazax showed how when Cloud slashed him a bunch of times, Sephy didn’t even bleed, despite Cloud having bled himself moments before.
~
The point is, Sephiroth doesn’t need organs. He may not even have them. He also may or may not be too durable to take much damage from a force crush in the first place, I’m just ignorant as to what feats have been brought up for that. You know, besides him being slashed by a B.F. Sword a bunch of times.
“That wasn’t the point. Yes your example was a valid one, but no it isn’t a “prime example” because it didn’t incorporate any of the events outside of the movies (point of having this match EU) which is basically showing the bare minimum strength wise for force users in general and then applying it to EUVader making him appear weaker than he is.”
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That was just meant to show that pre-cog didn’t make speed irrelevant as was being stated above. Considering Aayla was a skilled Jedi Knight (or Master?) and she was completely caught off guard despite her pre-cog that’d have normally allowed her to cut down those troopers.
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Considering Vader’s power was greatly reduced following Mustafar, he wouldn’t exactly be too much better than Secura was.
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As for an EU example, General Grievous completely blitzed Ki-Adi-Mundi and his Jedi entourage despite their pre-cog. Ki-Adi was a known Jedi Master and he was beaten by the General because he was too fast for him to deal with before and after the initial attack.
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“He has force crushed people, so whats the difference if they have TK or not? I said this same exact thing right up there^”
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Galen Marek’s father serves as an example of this. Vader should have been able to just Force Crush him or TK rape him from the beginning and be done with it but he was only able to do so after he weakened him from a prolonged battle.
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Same applies to the incidents on Kessel where he didn’t just TK rape the Jedi there.
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“Sephiroth would have to have TK strength equal to or greater than that of Vaders.”
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No he doesn’t. It was discussed across this thread on that possibility and it has been discussed, shown and demonstrated that Vader has never Force Crushed or TKed a non-exhausted or weakened fellow TK user. He couldn’t do so against Starkiller at all in there fights (granted Marek is more powerful than Vader) except when he weakened him with that backstab in TFU. Marek’s father is another example that I explained above. Darth Maul was known to be a weaker Force user than Vader and he didn’t just Force kill him off the bat.
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“Vader doesn’t need to be shown force crushing or force wounding a force user because we know he can do it.”
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He certainly hasn’t been shown the ability to do so on a non-exhausted or wounded Force user unless someone can bring forth proof.
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“He has force gripped and force choked force users yes?”
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After he exhausted them.
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“So, the question is, if Vader crushes Sephiroth’s heart, how would he fight back?”
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He’d have to weaken or exhaust Sephiroth to use the Force to overwhelm him.
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Then we have magical powers that Sephy has aka time stop, polymorph and elemental attacks. The first two are practically auto-wins for Sephy.
As for other durability feats of Sephy, he survived being plummeted through a skyscraper by Cloud without losing momentum and emerging out of the building unscathed
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“Vader doesn’t need to be shown force crushing or force wounding a force user because we know he can do it”
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Except he never did this to a force user right off the bat and he only showed the capacity to do this when they were too injured or tired to fight back, same goes for other force users and why you don’t see them going “lol, TK rape bitch” on eachother right off the bat (ie, Vader vs that Jedi on Kashyyk, Starkiller vs Vader pop to mind near immediately)
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As far as telekinetic power goes, Sephiroth casually levelled a large section of a skyscraper with his telekinesis and restrained and tortured Cloud and his party in the Original FFVII
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“So, the question is, if Vader crushes Sephiroth’s heart, how would he fight back?”
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Better question, could he do this when his opponent has telekinesis to defend himself?
“Then we have magical powers that Sephy has aka time stop, polymorph and elemental attacks. The first two are practically auto-wins for Sephy.”
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And dimensional banishment spells, which is also an insta-win for Sephy
Obi-wan has Relativistic Reactions and can swing his Lightsaber at >Mach 5000.
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Vader> Obi-Wan.
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Sephiroth get’s Godstomped.
“Sephiroth get’s Godstomped.”
-You must be joking. Reactions aren’t going to do a thing against the powers that Sephiroth can bring to bear.
Did you miss the part where Obi-wan physically moves his blade at Mach 5000?
Of course not. It seems, though, that you missed the part where Sephiroth has time-stop, polymorph, and dimensional banishment spells. That’s in addition to being able to jump hundreds of feat, hurl energy waves that can slice through metal without slowing down or weakening, and… well, just read the posts above. Fast sword-swinging isn’t going to help Darth Vader.
^Sephiroth can also fly
The ability to cut him into a billion pieces before he can even react>>> all of those.
“Fast sword-swinging isn’t going to help Darth Vader.”
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Pretty much this.
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“Vader> Obi-Wan.”
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As Anakin, I’m pretty sure that’s true. Suited Vader is canonly a shadow of his former self.
Not to mention that Vader could just mind rape him at relativistic speeds.
“The ability to cut him into a billion pieces before he can even react>>> all of those.”
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He’d have to be able to hit him first and Sephy can easily lengthen the distance between the two.
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“Not to mention that Vader could just mind rape him at relativistic speeds.”
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Vader has shown to be unable to offensively use the Force against unexhausted, healthy TK users without first tiring them.
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Also, is that relativistic calc for Vader or Anakin?
Random question, would Anakin potentially be able to beat Sephiroth?
@Captain
Maybe, maybe not, its a loaded question that depends on which particular incarnation of the One-winged Psycho you are talking about.
That and it depends on how well mostly-Flesh-and-blood!-Anakin can draw into Force Powers to get Sephiroth before Sephiroth gets him.
At the very least, even if F-A-B!-Anakin were in an Anti-tech zone, he can still fight back just relatively fine, compared to his Cyborgified!-self that was in the time of the Galactic Civil War, at least.
“Random question, would Anakin potentially be able to beat Sephiroth?”
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It’d certainly be more even.
@Soldier’s Shadow
Or at least less bleak than what’s going on in here, right?
What’d say you to Revan’s odds against Sephiroth, though, given its (generally) agreed that he’d get Sideous in an actual fight?
“Also, is that relativistic calc for Vader or Anakin?”
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There is a Mach 1000 calc for Obi-Wan, which was based off him deflecting blaster fire from all directions and moving his lightsaber so fast that it appeared a blue bubble shield had formed around him
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However said calc has a bajillion assumptions in it
It’s not even a calc.
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Obi-wan is specifically stated in words to react and use the force relativistic speeds.
“There is a Mach 1000 calc for Obi-Wan, which was based off him deflecting blaster fire from all directions and moving his lightsaber so fast that it appeared a blue bubble shield had formed around him”
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Which piece of SW fiction has this happened? I also wonder how it could be that high when last I heard, blasters were only bullet speed or marginally better/worse.
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“Obi-wan is specifically stated in words to react and use the force relativistic speeds.”
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Couldn’t that possibly be hyperbole?
“Which piece of SW fiction has this happened?”
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ROTS novelisation on Utapau (sp?). I think the quote is on another thread here
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“I also wonder how it could be that high when last I heard, blasters were only bullet speed or marginally better/worse”
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Me too
At the very least relativistic speeds are so high that they’d become an outlier. It’s pretty much negated by all of the movies where this never happens. If he could swing the blade to bubble-speed, then what would stop him from defeating all of his opponents by using this + walking forward?
EU is included in this match. The quote apparently came from a novelization of the movie so I’m sure your point would still stand.
“Couldn’t that possibly be hyperbole?”
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Nope.
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It’s in the novelization as well I think.
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Obi-wan is fighting Magnaguards, it’s specifically mentioned that he can outspeed their relativistic processors or something.
How about posting the direct quote, just to make sure? If it’s not too much to ask.
Kay, let me go get it.
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“Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hyper-sophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan’s ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn’t even fighting.
He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him. In the Force, he felt their destruction: it was somewhere above and behind him, and only seconds away. He went to meet it with a backflipping leap that the Force used to lift him neatly to an empty droid socket in the ceiling hive. The MagnaGuards sprang after him but he was gone by the time they arrived, leaping higher into the maze of girders and cables and room-sized cargo containers that was the control center’s superstructure.
Here, said the Force within him, and Obi-Wan stopped, balancing on a
girder, frowning back at the oncoming killer droids that leapt from beam to
beam below him like malevolent durasteel primates. Though he could feel its close approach, he had no idea from where their destruction might come…until the Force showed him a support beam within reach of his blade and whispered, now. His blade flicked out and the durasteel beam parted, fresh-cut edges glowing white hot, and a great hulk of ship-sized cargo container that the beam had been supporting tore free of its other supports with shrieks of anguished metal and crashed down upon all three MagnaGuards with the finality of a meteor strike.
Two, three, and four. Oh, thought Obi-Wan with detached approval. That worked out rather well. Only ten thousand to go. Give or take. An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once. Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there…
Leaping girder to girder, slashing cables on which to swing through swarms of ricocheting particle beams, blade flickering so fast it became a deflector shield that splattered blaster bolts in all directions, his presence alone became a weapon: as he spun and whirled through the control center’s superstructure, the blasts of particle cannons from power droids destroyed equipment and shattered girders and unleashed a torrent of red-hot debris that crashed to the deck, crushing droids on all sides. By the time he flipped down through the air to land cat-footed on the deck once more, nearly half the droids between him and Grievous had been destroyed by their own not-so-friendly fire. He cut his way into the mob of remaining troops as smoothly as if it were no more than a canebrake near some sunlit beach; his steady pace left behind a trail of smoking slices of droid.
“Keep firing!” Grievous roared to the spider droids that flanked him. “Blast him!”
Obi-Wan felt the massive shoulder cannon of a spider droid track him, and he felt it fire a bolt as powerful as a proton grenade, and he let the Force nudge him into a leap that carried him just far enough toward the fringe of the bolt’s blast radius so that instead of shattering his bones it merely gave him a very strong, very hot push-that sent him whirling over the rest of the droids to land directly in front of Grievous.
A single slash of his lightsaber amputated the shoulder cannon of one power droid and continued into a spinning Force-assisted kick that brought his boot heel to the point of the other power droid’s duranium chin, snapping the droid’s head back hard enough to sever its cervical sensor
cables. Blind and deaf, the power droid could only continue to obey its last
order; it staggered in a wild circle, its convulsively firing cannon
blasting random holes in droids and walls alike, until Obi-Wan deactivated
it with a precise thrust that burned a thumb-sized hole through its thoracic
braincase.
“General,” Obi-Wan said with blandly polite smile as though
unexpectedly greeting, on the street, someone he privately disliked.”
-
This contains both the Mach 5000 feat and the Relativistic reflexes.
“Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit
flash-blind the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence,
half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once. The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine? Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them-But he could feel them in the Force.
The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with
power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow’s murderous
exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous”
Quotes for Anakin himself.
Which is all overridden by what is seen in the higher canon *films*.
Facepalm.
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Welp, I’m out.