Suggested many times by many readers…
This is a battle that I knew had been coming for quite some time and couldn’t hold off anymore as I got soo many requests for this fight. Here we have Rand al’Thor from the Wheel of Time series up against Richard Rahl of the Sword of Truth/Legend of the Seeker universe.
For the battle we are using the book version of Rahl.
Rand has a power forged sword (unbreakable) and no power enhancing items. Richard has the Sword of Truth.
The battle takes place in the Aiel Waste.
Every reader of this site knows who I’m gonna take, what say you?
none of what i have said has been countered except for the balefire vs sub.magic debate still going. and if i finally convinced you guys that richard’s subconscious gift is valid and rand’s ta’……something is not.
should i assume you all agree with the rest of it then?
and please don’t try to use word play about the universe thing, the other side of existance by definition is a parallel universe. universes don’t have actual sides. it’s not NY to LA or whatever. richard closed the gateway to the other side of existance, a parallel universe. so i guess it would look the same.
@mike
It is useless trying to reason with you. Your points have been countered, but obviously you do not see them as being countered. This discussion is going nowhere, unless anybody brings in new evidence neither of our opinions will change. You are obviously going to believe that Richard will win this fight until an FP award is given. While the majority of us are going to support Rand. I going to try and not respond to any more posts that are just repeating the same information over and over. This may be the way you will win, by making all of the people supporting Rand to lose patience with you and stop participating in this discussion. Blood Dancer has, apparently, already stopped replying to your comments with any relevant information. Galorian has stopped trying to reason with you. And now I have lost all patience with you. If I continued countering your arguments then most of my civility will be quickly lost. So, until book 13 comes out I am done debating with you.
I hope I haven’t come across as too cold and brutal to anyone (except maybe Mike) since my last post. I try not to be, but I’m afraid I can be that way sometimes when fanboys continue to pester me with their faulty logic.
“Trying to read Mike’s comments is both depressing and is giving me a headache, so I’ll avoid my usual point by point rebuttals and simply sum up Mike’s debating style-
“Mike: 2+2=4, therefore sharks ride bicycles.
Someone: No, 2+2=4 has nothing to do with sharks, and sharks swim in the ocean.
Mike: I proved that 2+2=4 and you said that sharks swim in the ocean. The ocean is blue, therefore sharks ride bicycles. See? I proved it!
Someone: *head explodes*”
Galorian, this post is 110% epic win. Sums Mike up perfectly. I commend you.
Really, Mike, the “factpile debating rules” lists fallacies that one should AVOID, not a checklist of things to do in every debate.
I don’t think we’re ever going to convince Mike. I spelled it out for the convenience of his arrogant fanboy ass, and he still doesn’t seem to get it. No matter how we try to tell him that Richard cannot create gods and universes, he does the same thing: He gives quotes from the books that say nothing about the extent of Richard’s powers and then claims that it is “proof” and our arguments have been debunked, while ignoring our logic in return. He keeps saying the same things over and over again, keeps saying that they’ve been proven, keeps saying that we’ve been debunked, keeps quoting wikis, and still hasn’t managed to pull his head out of his ass and realize the simple facts.
Frankly, I’m tired of his hypocrisy (“Richard’s subconscious doing anything isn’t a no-limits fallacy, but Rand being Ta’veren is!”), I’m tired of his fallacies and erroneous logic, I’m tired of listening to his immature chattering, etcetera. I think I speak for all of us here when I say that I’m out of patience with Mike and his nonsense.
So, unless Admin wants to come on here and debate civilly with the rest of us, I propose that we end this right now. This debate isn’t going to go anywhere except more circles around Mike’s adamant refusal to acknowledge the truth and continuous spouting of his fanatical SoT fanon dogma, and we’ve pretty much covered everything. So, in light of the following points:
1) Rand, with the True Power and all else, has greater power, knowledge, skill, control of his magic, and a larger arsenel of spells than Richard.
2) Richard’s subconscious is not omnipotent or capable of doing anything necessary to beat Rand.
3) Rand is Ta’veren.
4) Balefire defeats subtractive magic, and if it doesn’t, erases Richard before he cast it.
5) Richard does not have the knowledge of the Temple of the Winds or the Power of Orden.
6) Richard cannot create gods or universes, whatever Mike tries to claim.
7) Richard can teleport and turn invisible, while Richard cannot.
8) Rand can block subtractive magic while Richard cannot block balefire.
9) Several intelligent people have supported Rand and proved his victory, while only one desperate fanboy is still defending Rahl with illogical nonsense, showing Rand’s victory in this debate.
10) Rand can control his magic while Richard cannot.
11) Richard cannot dodge, block, deflect, avoid, or otherwise survive balefire.
12) Everything else I covered in my previous posts.
13) Etc.
I nominate Rand al’Thor, the Dragon Reborn and Lord of the Morning, for the Factpile Award and final victory over Richard Rahl.
How about it, everyone? Shall we ignore Mike from this point on, end this +400 comment debate, and give Rand the award?
I second and third (my gravatar agrees) the nomination.
I also ask that the admin please step in on this to deal with Mike. I know I’ve been asking a lot of the man that stands above Chuck Norris but…sheesh. I think we need it.
” Richard can teleport and turn invisible, while Richard cannot”
I fourth the nom.
I too support the nomination. Count is to 4 now
“I nominate Rand al’Thor, the Dragon Reborn and Lord of the Morning”
You forgot, Prince of the Dawn, Car’a'carn, Coramoor, Shadowkiller…
the only point i will try to make here, is Rand has had more training, and time to learn to use his gifts whereas Richard has just begun to learn to use his by the time the last book ended. in saying that, i dont really think there is much of a comparison. Rand is the obvious master and Richard is not.
I fifth the nomination for the Lord Dragon Reborn.
Nomination for the Dragon Reborn has been sixth’d
7th nom right here.
Looks like rand takes it by a landslide, unless some kind of a retarded SoT fanboy silent majority kicks in at the last second.
@Krazycrismore
You think I’m belittlig Mike? I’m hardly playing. Ask Anime Hero Kevin or Rorschach the hard time I gave them just for the sake of it. I don’t like fanboys and as such I apply a small dose of tough love.
wow, insults and no responses to logical points. you claim i’m illogical and don’t show why, you insult me and make no point to address any of mine. and you guys are calling me illogical. i’ve asked before for you to show me what’s illogical about what i’ve said and none of you had anything other than your opinion on how balefire works against magic, and you were basing it off of what isn’t even known in the books, and i was basing it off of what specifically did happen. you also try to make the true power sound like sub.magic when i have stated specific properties of sub.magic that true power doesn’t have. you claim it’s like it because it damages the pattern, well it does damage the pattern but doesn’t erase the thread of whatever targeted. glad i looked up the difference between the two so you guys can’t claim it erases anymore, at least not directly like was claimed.
-i have caught Krazy lying or changing his stance on what true power is to suit his neeeds
-blood dancer seems only capable of insults now due to being insulted once over a month ago.
-galorian hasn’t posted much and the most recent have only been insults.
-ahem’s last post completely ignores some of the things that i proved that aren’t even debatable. ie. richard has more power ie. U&G and rand doesn’t have that power
-johnny hasnt commented in 113 comments and what he did say is that he “debunked” every point i had, and not only did new info come up, i did counter everything you said.
——————————————————————————————————————
i don’t know what your guy’s problem is. you get mad at me and call me a fanboy. fine i don’t care what you think of me, but it’s not part of the debate and holds no grounds here. doesn’t matter if all of you agree, i already showed you how #s don’t make right earlier regarding if richard gave up orden or not. i stated clear definitions of how specific things work for both sides and showed you why richard would win because of it. You almost completely ignore everything i say that damages rand’s chances, such as that lengthy comment i had #75 on the last page i think, explaining in detail the different powers the both have and how they would react to each other based on what is known of them. You believe balefire to be the best thing in the universe and when i show you it isn’t you just say no because it goes back in time. you don’t even realize it doesn’t matter what effect something does affter two things that erase out of existance hit each other. they are both gone instantly and can’t do anything else. all of you always claim to have countered my points when i see no evidence of this and refuse to respond to my points when i counter yours saying you already countered it. this doesn’t make sense. if you don’t address the issue you don’t counter anything. i have responded to every point everyone of you has made. you have ignored most of mine calling them illogical with no reason why, other than claiming i’m a fanboy. not a counter point.
“Really, Mike, the “factpile debating rules” lists fallacies that one should AVOID, not a checklist of things to do in every debate.”
-ahem
-i don’t even know what you mean by this. are you refering to me calling out blood dancer on his insulting and not addressing points being an ad hominem? as far as i know i have not broken any of the rules and stating that i have without pointing out what it is or when i did it or at least a quote is completelly meaningless and just trying to belittle my cause on here, which is also against the rules.
-4. Appeal to motive – “You are obviously going to believe that Richard will win this fight until an FP award is given.” you are trying to invalidate my points based on a possible motive.
-1. Ad hominem – too many to list and i think the only one to not outright insult me without a point in the same post would be Krazy.
-5. Appeal to popularity – “AHEM said it very well. You claim that all of your arguments are logical, when you may have one person that is actively participating in this discussion agreeing that it is logical, while everybody else is disagreeing. That is almost always a sign that you are not being logical.” – Krazy
10. Association fallacy – “This is when someone claims that since A has certain qualities, and B is in some way associated with A, then B has those qualities as well, without actual proof of this.” -this has to do with what you claim the true power can do and how it’s similar to sub.magic. Sub.magic is a. and truepower is b. you said the true power is like sub.magic because it damages the pattern which is like sub.magic. i had to show major differences in the two and i still haven’t heard you accept the differences and how the true power is not like it.
11. Argument from ignorance – ““There is no evidence of A, so A cannot possibly be true” – this one goes out to blood dancer “Like I said Mike you are twisting the words and Terry Goodkind’s words as well. Richard gave up the boxes. ” just gave evidence to show he has the boxes and you come back and just bluntly say that.
13. Argument from belief – “This is when someone states that they personally believe something to be true, without providing any actual evidence.”
-”One stream of balefire didn’t affect the other because it was immune to magic, and vice-versa. How was balefire supposed to affect something that was immune to magic? Develope an immunity to immunity.” Krazy.
-not only didn’t you provide evidence of this i’m only bringing this up because a couple of posts later you stated this “It is also unclear how balefire interacts with magic”
15. Appeal to tradition – This is when someone claims that an argument must be true because it’s the way things have always been done previously, or the thing that people always believed before. – this pertains to the point someone made about rand being able to cut richard off from his gift because he has already been proven to be able to do so against other universe characters in the link & eragon vs rand debates.
i’m stopping at # 15 because i think i’ve made my point. i just started to read through the rules and used only my memory to recognize what most of you have done. so i brought you quotes of those times. and i’ll finish this posts like i usually do and counter some of your points. this time only ahem made any in the last 10 comments.
1)claiming rand has the bigger power when not addressing how i’ve said rahl has the larger, rand does have more knowledge, with skill you’d have to be more specific on what you mean by skill, because they both have done impressive things, ignoring and or not addressing that i showed richard has complete control over his magic, and stating that rand has a bigger arsenal than richard is probably true, but can never be known since his subconsious casts spells richard doesn’t know but within his powers.
2)no one ever claimed it to be omnipotent, and bluntly stating it can’t beat rand isn’t even a point.
3)already proved this a non limit fallacy for how someone said it works. you can’t always win because fate is strong in you. “If we factor this in as an actual ability or Rand’s, then fate will keep him alive through this battle no matter what” – ahem
4)i have explained how these two would work based on everything known on their properties and all you say is that if it doesn’t it will erase richard before he cast it. how would it erase richard if it didn’t even beat sub.magic? this doesn’t even make sense.
5)never claimed he did, just said he did at one point and not at current incarnation, this is not a point.
6)you are missquoting me and not reading how i’ve proved similar. richard has the POWER to do it, not the KNOWLEDGE, but he did have the KNOWLEDGE while in the temple of the winds. another point no one has addressed other than this being, what the 3rd 4th time i’ve been misquoted on it?
7)i think you ment rand, but i have already shown you why these wouldn’t affect the fight, and you are not addressing why i say that. richard can sense life not just magic and fought hundreds of invisible things before. don’t even know what teleporting would bring to the fight since you haven’t answered my last inquarry about it.
8)i have showed both to be false and no one has refuted the claims since. rand doesn’t have the properties of magic to be able to block sub.magic that is only blocked with similar or same properties. no one has shown me why my point of how the sot can block balefire is incorrect. i have proven it able to do EVERYTHING cuendillar does, and even made from more power.
9)claiming intelligent people say one thing and only one person disagrees and that that one person’s argument is illogical and nonsense without any proof of any of it. this is not a point
10)i have already shown you that richard can, and no one has refuted this other than just saying “he can’t”
11)i have showed many ways some of which no one addressed on how rahl can accomplish this.
12) & 13) are the same thing…….nothing.
before you guys get on a rand for fp award kick again, please address the issues i’ve brought up and stop the claim i’m a fanboy and illogical to hide behind. show me why you think it’s illogical. other wise you are just another voice in the south park crowd….rabble rabble rabble rabble…..meaningless.
i still have a few questions that really havent been answered, but it seems that they wont be answered, maybe were already answered, or were completely disregarded because they didnt count. i guess i’ll just have to read the books again and find out for myself, so I’ll nominate rand bloody al’thor as well or more accurately concede the fight. since i never really thought that rands power or ability were in question(i apologize for a few vodka enduced posts in the middle there). it was all richards to prove that he can match up with rand……which i tried to do, but im at the mercy of terry goodkinds magics that he gave to richard, which were never really fleshed out to the point that robert jordan did with rand. so the bloody dragon reborn ftw.
that was not addressing any point on how i think richard would win. if you want ptaine i’d gladdly explain to you any topic you have questions on.
my apologies to you i didnt realize that you had posted something while i was writing my last post.
i understand most of what both sides are saying in this debate. some of it i dont agree with based on things that i’ve read in both series, and some of it i do. ive raised a few questions which havent really been answered, and they mostly have to do with rand.
that’s alright, in this specific thread we’ve been addressing almost every point in every comment and i’ve been (think it’s called) ninja’d by two people at a time before due to long typing.
can i clear anything up with richard?
and what were your questions about rand that weren’t answered? maybe i know of someone answering them already on here.
Mike.
Shut up.
Everything you brought up was addressed multiple times and nothing else you can say will be a valued part of the debate.
no it hasn’t, prove it by showing it. you just can’t state i’m wrong or you’ve proved me wrong without showing me why.
There’s 419 posts prior to me posting this. How many of them were not your’s? All of those proved you wrong.
lol, that’s not how it works cide. new points are made, new info is brought into it. many of my points haven’t been addressed since new info along with others not proven wrong in any way. opinions aren’t proof. i’ve brought proof, i’m the only one to post links and quote from books with exact pages in at least the last 120 posts. no one has even tried to show me why my points don’t work for them. all anyone has done is say how illogical they are and that i’m a fanboy because i haven’t given up. the only kind of “debunking” anyone has done to me is asking for proof of what i claim richard can do, and i have provided the proof after them asking for it.
You haven’t brought a lick of proof with you to ANY post you made. Multiple people (including myself) all showed you what’s wrong with your points and your posts. Do I need to go through again? Just read Ahem’s last 2-3 posts. He addressed EVERYTHING you brought up. And I mean everything. There’s a reason even the SoT fans sided with Rand in this fight.
well……i think that the major problem with Richard……and the one that i have been trying to get by without much success……is the sheer amount of attacks that rand can throw at Richard, and Richards incapability to do anything about it. Because the simple reality is, if Richard sends a subtractive lightning bolt at rand…..all rand has to do is dodge (which has been done in the SoT series), send flows of air at Richard to tie him up (which richard cant see even if he can sense that rand is “wizard” of some sort, all he would see is rand with his hand up in an instant with nothing happening and being tied up) and send a weave of fire at him to burn him up. So even if Richard could get out of being tied up (which I think that he could) rands other attacks would be on him before he could do anything at all to stop it. And these are just simple things that rand can do with a thought……..this scenario doesn’t even get into the more complex, and more destructive weaves that rand can do, that Richard REALLY couldn’t defend against, even with the way his power works, and what has been done in the SoT series
And all of that makes EVERYTHING else moot. No balefire against subtractive lightning. No dodging balefire. No having greater power. No being shielded. No anything else.
Thank you but I don’t think he’s gonna listen to you either, ptaine. We’re gonna need the word of god on this one or something.
@cide
i haven’t brought proof? i’m the only one to post links and quote pages from books for proof. what are you talking about.
ahem didn’t address any of the new information i brought up quite awhile ago, stated things as fact without proof, and he lied about what i said and misquoted me on what i said, when i’ve asked them to stop misquoting me on the same subject before. it’s all in post #12
@ptaine
-richard has shown to cast spells multiplied +1000times/casted+1000 times instantly. proven as shown how lightning works in that world in every other situation as being a one shot one kill no arcing. and richard killed +1000 in the valley in pillars of creation and thousands at the people’s palace. with one move of lightning multiplied/cast multiple times.
i agree he can get out of being tied up due to rand supporters saying you can break confining weaves if you have more or similar power, and i’ve shown that the power richard has is the same power that made the boxes of orden and the sot. which is the power to create a god and universe. proven as how all he got from the temple of the winds was knowledge, not the power, to make and destroy the sword of truth.
“The sword may have been created later, but the magic invested in it was the magic created by the same wizards who created Orden.” – pg.589 confessor
shields are also common in richard’s world, his gift by itself as far as i know hasn’t made one yet but he does have complete control of his gift now and has made air shields before to block arrows and such.
“A war wizard’s power comes from instinct and emotion, particularly driven by need and anger. A war wizard can use his power freely and with abandon if he understands the Wizard’s Eleventh and Final Rule.”
richard did understand the eleventh rule. it’s all here
sot.wikia.com/wiki/Wizard%27s_Rules
i think this clears it up sufficiently.
post #75 on the last page and post #12 on this one cover most if not all issues.
i think i explained the strength of richard’s power in post 25 here alot clearer since i wasn’t addressing many other issues at the same time.
So… 9th nom, then?
@mike
Showing wiki articles is not showing proof. As has already been said wikis can be changed by anybody. I would show you how your posts are wrong, until I remembered that we have already done that at least 10 times while you continues claiming that you are correct. I am contemplating reading the supes vs goku thread to see how similar the current situation is with the situation you had in that fight.
So, the counts are currently Rand-8(AHEM, CIDE, Nemo, Krazy, Johnny, Zazax, Galorian, ptaine, and Flagro) to RIchard-1(mike)
“I am contemplating reading the supes vs goku thread to see how similar the current situation is with the situation you had in that fight.”
Don’t bother, i’ll tell you. He waltzed in there claiming that Hypersonic>>>>FTL based on math. Said math was done using Goku’s Max Power level when the last time his power level was measured was in the Freeza saga. He also claimed that GT was canon and used such info.
as i said before i didn’t even know what the term canon ment. i was using what multiple sites and games used as his power level at the end of the boo saga, along with my memory of twice the powerlevel=twice the speed and strength. i know that’s not canon now and i wasn’t going to watch the whole dbz series again to find who said pl= db spd & str. so i conceded.
and if you really had counter points and are so sick of me you’d show me these fictional counter points you’ve made. all any of you has done is say you’ve countered them for a long time now, even after i’ve brought in new info. and wiki is useable on here, the things i’ve took from it are from the book if not directly quoting it, then describing it in other words out of story line characteristics. so do it. show me how you’ve proved me wrong, or illogical, or whatever. you can’t because you didn’t.
if you would like i could start quoting you guys to make my point
sub.magic vs. balefire and non similarities to the true power
“It does not have material existence and is in and of itself a sort of negative substance.”
- ahem post #50 on sir daniel fortesque vs. richard rahl
not like true power at all and balefire has nothing to hit. thanks ahem
here’s another one from ahem. didn’t even think about it until now but it would protect from attacks of this type and maybe even put to rest you guys stating rand would shield him from his magic without an explanation of how.
“Richard is the living incarnation of a powerful ancient magic of D’Hara known only as the “bond.” This provides him with total immunity to psychic or psionic influences and attacks. His mind cannot be controlled or bent, even by the strongest telepaths in the SoT universe” – ahem post #29 from sir daniel fortesque vs richard rahl.
“He has a limited gift for prophecy, and can sense intuitively when danger is coming or when someone is sneaking up on him” -ahem- post 29 sir daniel fortesque vs richard rahl
-forgot about these too. these would help rahl further quell your argument about not seeing weaves and not being able to react and rand turning invisible, coupled with his exp. of killing hundreds of invisible creatures already.
I was going to be the ass that I usually am towards you Mike but I am too tired to care. So this is what I say, AHEM is considered by the FP community a credible debater. Far more credible than you’ll ever be. Hell, even I am more credible. But that’s besides the point here.
Rand Al’ thor for the FP award. I know that admin is a huge Rahl fan but he’s also reasonable.
here’s a good one for the sword fight part even though that’s already been decided.
it’s a good thing i got you guys to remind me of these things
“In one occasion, he was fighting an opponent who was protected by magical shields that were so strong, she could turn away blows from the Sword of Truth like they were nothing. She had Richard pretty much on the ropes, knocked down and everything, until he suddenly used the White Magic. It went straight through her shields and killed her almost instantly, while Richard whispered, “I forgive you.”
- ahem post #37 sir daniel fortesque vs richard rahl
so…..???? you are agreeing with the point i’ve made on richard’s behalf that was quoted from ahem? and for credibility i think i’m doing fine for myself with quoting books and posting links as to where the information comes from. and i’m still waiting to see one of these points you made that puts all of what i said down.
“you are agreeing with the point i’ve made on richard’s behalf that was quoted from ahem”
No, I agree with AHEM. I’d have to be either drunk or dying to to agree with you on anything…and even then I’d take my chances with a rat.
@ Mike, who on earth ever said that Rand would be using psyionic attacks against Richard? Also, from what I’ve read, there are very specific circumstances for Richard to turn the Sword of Truth white, and I seriously doubt he’d be able to turn the sword white in his fight against Rand. Also, there’s a huge, fucking absolutely massive, difference between sensing danger, and knowing exactly what that danger is, what form that danger is coming from, and where it’s coming from. Here you are, still trying to claim that Richard’s gift makes his abilities damn near omnipotent.
I don’t see how you think that Richard’s limited gift for prophecy and his intuition suddenly means that he can see Rand’s weaves. Then again, these are the same sorts of conjectures you have used since you started posting in this duel.
Just because you don’t see your points as debunked, doesn’t mean that they weren’t. It just makes you an idiot to not be able to see what everyone else so clearly can.
no one, i just said he would be protected against them. No one has ever gotten into detail on what rand casts.
to turn the sword of truth white he just needs to truly forgive the one he’s going to use it against. based on richard’s character, not even knowing who he’s being forced to kill, i can easily see him forgiving him. probably by coming to the same conclusion that the other guy is being forced also.
putting words in my mouth again are we. i never said omnipotent, i said it would help to know when attacks are happening magic or otherwise and to fight rand invisibly. please don’t put words in my mouth.
and again no one has stated any way how they have proven my arguments wrong. and now they are putting words in my mouth to use as conjecture and stating without proof that i’ve done it before. wonderful, way to go guys.
Where the hell are you getting your information? Why, why, do you think that he can fight Rand invisibly. As I just fucking got finished explaining not 20 minutes ago, an intuition for sensing danger, and a limited gift for prophecy do not mean that he will be able to fight if Rand is invisible. To state that he could is pure conjecture. Also, that quote you gave never said that Richard would know if magical attacks were being cast at him. If what you said about turning the Sword white is true, then please, by all means, explain to me why Richard didn’t use that ability more often throughout the books. Also, people have gone into plenty of detail on what Rand is most likely to cast, chief among his abilities being Balefire. Then there would be deathgates, fire blossoms, walls of fire, weaves of fire and air that cause the opponent to literally explode from the inside out, shielding, or cutting off, from the source of one’s magic, exploding ground, likely centered under the opponent, lightning storms, and weaves of air to restrain his opponent.
he can sense life and where it is, and has fought hundreds of invisible things before(mriswith). you’d know this if you read or payed attention to my posts you so claim are illogical and what not.
didn’t have to say magical attacks. i figured you’d understand that magic attacks are dangerous too.
he didn’t use that power in the books due to some choice by terry goodkind. you can’t make your character seem to over powered all the time, that wouldn’t make much suspense now would it.
exactly, for any wizard that’s not much of a repituar. i’m sure he has more. i thought maybe he had psychic, or psionic attacks in there somewhere. and balefire was the only one put into detail. others were just mentioned that he had them.
“weaves of fire and air that cause the opponent to literally explode from the inside out”
Not that it matters but it is an earth weave.
that’s right they weave from specific elements, forgot about that. wot magic is really completely different from sot. just curious but does rand have psionic or psychic attacks other than shielding from their own magic type of stuff? and i’ve gotta go for the day, yeah some of you are going to be happy, i know, but i’d still like to see what everyone claims debunks any of my points. i’ve looked this thread over and there isn’t anything, not to mention no one countering on subjects with new info(info from wot and sot).
No, Rand does not possess any psychic attacks. The closest he would have would be the ability to enter tel’aran’rhiod, the world of dreams, and attack Richard through there. He could also theoretically use compulsion to force Richard into doing what he wants. I don’t believe that Richard would be saved from either of these attacks as they are not psychic in nature. Particularly, tel’aran’rhiod is on a different plane of existence, but what happens to someone there will stick. However, Rand’s usage of either of those abilities is extremely unlikely, for while he has the brute strength, and the control, to use both of those abilities, he has never been shown to use either of those. Compulsion is a method normally reserved for either the dreadlords or forsaken, and Rand would be wise to stay out of tel’aran’rhiod… his dreams are never safe.
From what I just read, admittedly on a wiki page, the sword requires the wielder to both love and forgive his opponent for the blade to turn white. If this is indeed true, then I go back to what I said before, which is that I seriously doubt that Richard would be able to use a white Sword of Truth in his fight against Rand.
Also, just found some info on another page. Once again, this isn’t a quote from the books, so let me know if it’s wrong. In explanation of the Mriswith cloak that is what makes them invisible:
” This cloak also makes the wearer undetectable by those with only the additive side of the gift but can still be detected by wizards with the subtractive side, making everyone vulnerable to attack.”
And here is the link for that page:www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Creatures_in_The_Sword_of_Truth#Mriswith
So, if that is true, then we have a reason that Richard was able to fight an invisible creature, which is because of the subtractive side of his gift. That still doesn’t mean that he can fight Rand if he’s invisible.
I’m a little ashamed now that Mike is taking my quotes from another battle involving Richard and citing them out of context in an attempt to prove that Richard would win, as if Richard having a limited ability to understand prophecy means he’d be able to anticipate the attacks of dozens of weaves coming at him at once.
Johnnyquest is correct about psychic attacks and the mriswith cape. The bond only protects against psychic attacks that involve the psychic actually going inside the target’s head, such as a Dreamwalker’s power, and provides no defense against similar mind-altering magic such as Confession, which means that Rand could still use compulsion against him.
Not that that matters, though. As far as I’m concerned, the debate is over. I think even Admin, who loves the SoT and the characters, would admit that Rand has won this debate fair and square. Better points, his advantages spelled out, Rahl’s advantags and so-called powers debunked, several logical debaters supporting Rand with one crazy fanboy in the opposite corner . . . I think we’re done.
Just ignore the fanboy, everyone. He’s not going to stop claiming that his logic is correct and we’ve all failed to debunk it, no matter how untrue his absurd logic is in any place in existence outside of his little mind.
So, for the Factpile Award:
Rand: AHEM, CIDE, Nemo, Krazy, Johnnyquest, Zazax, Galorian, ptaine, Flagro, and Blood Dancer.
Richard: Fanboy, AKA Mike.
Yeah, I think it’s pretty conclusive. Rand for the win.
Wait for itttt…..
“No one has ever gotten into detail on what rand casts.”
Fireballs
red lightning from his hands that cuts throught walls
blades of air
earthquakes
balefire
10 arrows of fire from every finger
Blossoms of Fire=pilars of fire that go boom
gateways
deathgates
eruptions
sheilds of air
freezeing
manipulating things with air
fire sword
lightning from the sky and hands
summoning storms
fireballs that engulf hilltops
making fire burst from someones pores
something that killed every darkspawn in a castle
compulsion
And I’m shure I’ve forgotten some.
Well, at least this debate has me reading WoT again. I started at the Great hunt the other day, and am now on The Dragon Reborn. I forgot how badass the development of the characters are. Also, I’d forgotten how amazing the other characters are. Perrin and his wolf brothers are just awesome as hell. Even myrdraal are afraid of him in combat. Mat Cauthon is also a badass. He could’ve killed the man who probably has the most potential as a swords man Jearom, the greatest blademaster of the age.
Imo, in terms of shear badassery, no other book series has nearly as many in it. Plus, there’s the way that the One Power is described, like it’s a fight, every time they use it, to not draw so much that they burn out the ability to channel, or worse, burn themselves to ashes.
Of course, alot of the reason that I chose to start reading again is because book 13 is scheduled to come out November 2nd. In this next to last book, one of my favorite characters will likely make a come back: Moraine Damodred, the Aes Sedai that guided the three Ta’veren towards their destinies. I get chills just thinking about it.
i’m not sure if i’m out of context or not, but i’ve read all 11 books in SOT and isn’t Richard immortal after he opens the right Box of Orden, which would means unless that Rand al’thor can undo the Magic Of Orden(which comands over life and death), i don’t see any way of Richard losing.
I haven’t read the WOT series, so please correct me, if i got it wrong.
@count draco
it was decided early on that the boxes of orden arent in play.
@johnnyquest
i agree…..i was really bummed out when robert jordan died without finishing the series. then i found out that brandon sanderson is finishing it up with a triology i had to read the series again. which incedently is how i found this thread.
@Ptaine, have you read book 12 yet? It’s the first one Sanderson did, and I gotta say, he’s doing the series justice.
i did indeed, ive actually read it about three times through because i liked it so much. im actually thinking about reading his other books now, besides anxiously awaiting the next book.
@ptaine
i don’t want to sound repetitive or annoying, but as of book 11 richard seems to be like a demigod( the only beings stronger then him will be the keeper and the creator) due to the magic of orden, which is the core of the SOT series, so wouldn’t removing their magic, automatcaly put richard at a disadvantage against Rand……….
unless Rand is also banned from using something from the WOT series as monumental as the Magic of orden in the SOT, then as far as i can see this is fairly a one sided match.
From what i have read about Rand, without the magic of orden, Richard would be severely at a disadvantage in magic fight against Rand due to his inexperience. But if this fight is only based on swords I think Richard would win.
And i want to add Richard can turn The SOT white whenever he wants, shown in the second book when richard and kahlan prevent the Batak fighting the mud people, he turns the sword white, showing that he is capable of doing so.
sorry for the double post,
i just wanted to add that since he opened the right Box of orden in book 11, Richard controls the magic of life and death. So the boxes need not be in play for it to protect him, he currently controls their magic.
AHEM has a few posts about it a few pages back that might answer your questions,
But basically i believe it said something to the effect of if he had the boxes it would be stated in the grounds for the fight, and it is basically Rand vs Richard with their respective swords.
And there is a lot of other stuff in there as well, so youd have to read it and decide for yourself what you think…
@ptaine
LOL, should have those post first before posting now i sound stupid. As much as i love Richard and Hate the WOT series(they seem to be confusing to me), i have to accept that as long as Rand is allowed his magic richard is never going to win, unless Goodkind suddenly releases a new book, in which Richard is capable of using greater magic power OR he gets the power to steal souls like the slide in book 8.
I realy wonder what would happen if Jansen Rahl gets hit by a balefire:). In SOT series she is immune to magic.
yeah….the sword of truth series is my favorite series and i would really like to see Rahl put up a fight, but it’s really impossible to have him win outright much less even defend against Rand because he is pretty much a beast.
for the mrswith thing, richard could sense them because of his sub.magic. he could also sense them from being able to sense life. the only reason others couldn’t sense them before is because they can’t sense life and don’t have subtractive magic. that’s why they stayed out of that forest outside of the palace of prophets. he couldn’t actually see them or anything, just sense they were there. and still killed hundreds of them. oh, and they were assasins made out of war wizards wearing the cloaks. the cloaks turned war wizards into mriswith. you had to have both sides of the gift to make the cape work.
richard was immune to the touch of a confessor because he knew how to get past total destruction and servitude of his mind, you leave no room for it, and have absolute conviction. complete and absolute servitude for the rest of your life, and the servitude is so strong that if some confessors(kahlan in peticular because that’s who he did it against) just say they want you to die, then you do on the spot. is compulsion stronger than the magic of confessors? i doubt it. you’d have to show me.
richard’s bond also protected him from the dream walker that was able to enter dreams and move in and out of your mind faster than thought and do it to anyone no matter how strong magically or otherwise they were, unless you had the bond. so dreams wouldn’t work against him either.
these are your new points, and they are debunked.
and yet again none of you has showed me these fictional debunks, or illogical parts of my points. i think i’m starting to see why now. all of you know you don’t have any. it’s been going on this whole page pretty much. i’ve looked over almost the whole thread and none of you has proven anything against what i’ve said. you either refuse to believe what i’ve said and quoted from the books and wiki, proving what i’ve said right(and don’t say wiki isn’t usable i’ve seen it used by some of you on other pages and most of what’s on there about the sot is from the books directly or worded differently), or didn’t address new info. if you really do believe you have counters for what i’ve said, and you really don’t like me like all of you have said, and you really do think that rand can win. then you’d at least SHOW me why and stop CLAIMING you have reasons that counter mine.
oh, and i didn’t quote you out of context in any way ahem. i posted the exact post # and the thread i got it from, so if you’d like to prove you’re claim of me taking your own words out of context, go ahead. don’t even see how though, since they are just abilities you’ve stated he has or how he is able to do them or what the characteristics of sub.magic is. no context to take them out of. so go ahead, show i’ve taken you out of context.
and here is even more evidence of subtractive magic beating balefire and rand’s shields. and also a little tid bit about one of you earlier asking proof of sot magic making things out of nothing. it’s almost nothing just a fear, but it didn’t physically exist.
“I do the same thing. I can use whatever I need in nature to change things. I can change a bug to a flower, I can change a fear to a monster, I can make a broken bone knit, I can take heat from the air around us and add to it, multiply it, into wizard’s fire. i can make my beard grow. But, I can’t make it ungrow.” A rock big as his fist started rising into the air. “I can lift something I can change it.” The rock crushed to dust.
“Then, you can do anything,” Richard whispered.
“no. I can lift or crush or move the rock, but I can’t make it vanish. Where would it go? That’s called Subtractive Magic: the undoing of things.” page 583 wizard’s first rule.
sub.magic is the undoing of things. what is balefire? a weave. and what happens in wot series when a weave is undone? it stops working. there now we don’t have to debate on the used to be ongoing which one would erase the other.
there goes the whole balefire part of the debate. that was one of rand’s strongest aspects. the other being multiple spells at once, but i’ve proven richard can do that two, by showing two separate occasions in the books that he cast/multiplied +1000 times at once, and the highest any of you said rand could do was dozens.
so how is rand going to win?
“The Seeker focused the sword’s magic into the power that bound him to the wall. With a loud crack, the bond broke and he tumbled away from the wall, rolling through the sand.” pg. 475 stone of tears
-this is another way richard can break magical shields on himself. and the only reason he let himself get into that situation was because he was trying to get the sister to stop what she was doing, and when she magically bound him and started causing him some sort of burning pain, he gave her one last chance. she refused, he broke the magical hold and then cut her head and part of her shoulders off in one swing. although this was not the real sister he thought it was,because it was a defense mechanism for the towers of the barrier between the old world and the new, made by thousands of wizards, war wizard’s included, giving their lifes to create. so he was up against very powerful magic. and apparently he can call upon the sword’s magic to break magic. the same magic that the boxes of orden were made from, which has the power to create G&U.
I might actually respond to what fanboy said if I thought it was worth it… but I know better.
wow johnny, if you are just going to ignore points what are you doing in a debating site? oh wait i know, you don’t have anything to counter it.
@Mike
We’d rather have Johnny than you…That much is clear.
No, no Mike, I’m not just going to ignore points. I’m just going to ignore your points. See, big difference there. If anyone else wants to put in a counter argument against Rand, I’ll be happy to try to counter that. But not you. No, Mike, I’m afraid you just aren’t worth my time.
ok, whatever, you do know that if there is still a counter point that no award can be given don’t you? and that everyone’s argument with me started by not addressing my points and saying they did. even though i’ve showed you how sub.magic would counter balefire before, i just showed you how it would completely dominate it now, and you aren’t going to agree or try to counter it, when the evidence is from the actual book? what the f are you doing here anymore then. if you don’t want to debate go somewhere else. if you think i’m that unreasonable go to admin. i’ll tell you what though. you are all going to look pretty stupid if you have to have a grown up come in here and tell you to stop acting like children, when it’s obvious to anyone who reads this thread how i’ve caught some of you lying, repeatidly misquoting me, ignoring points and new information, stating i’m illogical without stating even why, and claiming i don’t have proof when i’ve quoted the books. and being so stubborn that when i quote you(ahem) with things about rahl that you try to claim i’m taking it out of context; well i’ve put the exact post # and thread, prove it don’t just claim, so far that’s all any of you do is just talk, you got nothing to back it up. have some self dignity and admit defeat or grow some balls and tell me why you think you are right. because you haven’t done the latter in what??? like 150 posts or something? are all of you under 15 or something?
“grow some balls and tell me why you think you are right”
Funny you should say that, seeing as how you haven’t admitted that your math was wrong in a certain thread…
“are all of you under 15 or something?”
Again, your concession speech on that thread indicates precisely that. Should I mention that your grammar also does it?
my math was correct. nothing about it was wrong except the # came from non canon sources. and i didn’t know what canon ment at that time. like i said, first time debating ever on the internet.
grammar? really? who cares about grammar. if the point is made grammar is moot.
@mike
I just wanted to clear up a few things for you, maybe, from my perspective. Basically you have to disregard everything and take it to the beginning and ask yourself if Richard can
A) sense saidin
B) see the weaves and attacks that are coming towards him
C) provide an adequate defense against these attacks
These are 3 important hurdles in my mind that need to be addressed before you can even say that Richard can compete with Rand.
A)So there is really no way to prove this other than to try and see if there is an equivalent to saidin that Richard has access to in the SoT series, which there is not. You could also maybe try to say that Richard can see all forms of magic in the SoT realm, which he can’t.
–In WFR when he eventually got caught by the mord-sith, he had no idea that he was even affected by a drawn spell, a form of magic, until he ran into an invisible barrier that was slowly trapping him.
–He also couldn’t sense that Betty the goat was inhabited by the conscious of Nicholas the Slide in Naked Empire, which for all intents and purposes IF he can sense all forms of magic in his universe he should’ve been able to sense Nicholas in Betty, which he did not.
So at best you could only say that he can only tell when someone is a magic user because Rand can sense when someone is holding saidar and apparently cadsuane could tell when he was holding saidin. Plus Richard could also sense Nicci and brother Narev are magic users, but this ability really doesn’t do much for him in a fight scenario.
I also provided the only way that I personally think that he could see the weaves with my idea about the SoT being the key to the boxes of orden which is the power of life, and Saidin and saidar being pure life. Nobody really said anything on this, but I will be the first to admit it is as much a contrivance as me saying that Richard can make cuendillar.
B)So if Richard can’t sense/see saidin he can’t see the weaves, but Rand does have to raise his hands to manipulate the weaves and there are some visual and auditory signals that can be reacted to for some of the weaves…….but not all of them. So Richard wouldn’t really be able to react to something that comes for him at the speed of thought if he can’t see it, let alone the dozens of somethings that would be coming at him with the speed of thought.
–In Knife of Dreams during the battle with trollocs, Rand made blossoms of fire, which are described as vertical red shafts 10 feet tall no wider than his forearm which then expand out in the span of a heartbeat to a disc of flame 30 feet across. This is a complicated weave of earth, air and fire, and he made six of them spaced out among the trolloc charge in a moment.
–In the Shadow Rising Rand lifted Egwene and Elayne into the air, shielded them from the source, performed several acts of bursting things into flames and melting others, while spinning books through the air, and bursting the mattress apart. Egwene is one of the strongest women channelers and she couldn’t see any of his weaves, and was instantly cut off from the source, while Rand did a dozens of simple destructive things in a matter of moments. Richard would be just as helpless as Egwene and Elayne in this same scenario.
C) So let’s just for moment say that Richard can somehow see the weaves, he basically has three options for defense……1) his sword 2) subtractive magic and 3) a shield of some sort.
1) I tend to think that if Richard used his sword he could cut through the weaves and disrupt them. His sword has been shown to cut through magical barriers and destroy rather indestructible things, and weaves have been shown to be disruptable given the right conditions. The main issue against Richards sword though, which has been pointed out several different times, is Rand could simply knock it out of his hand with a weave of air or fire. I really don’t have a counter to this.
2) If Richards sword gets knocked out of his hand he could use subtractive lightning against the weaves, which I think would either remove the weave itself to the underworld, or would disrupt it enough to render the weave useless. But as has been said before you would have to show that Richard could keep up with the amount of attacks that Rand has at his disposal.
–The Stone of Tears example which not only relies on the enhancing effects any Rahl gets in the Peoples Palace it also relies on the skrin bone and the bond which the first helped close the veil and the second helped destroy all the enemy combatants. Richard had no idea about the lightning and he had no control over it at all because it was the bond which helped out there. So in my mind…..and everyone else’s mind here, this isn’t a good example of targeting multiple magics and defending against them because there are simply too many variables.
–The Pillars of Creation example just simply isn’t a case of multiple lightning bolts. Nowhere in the reading does it say that. It explicitly says one bolt in the space of a heartbeat. You can infer all you want about 1000 lightning bolts, but it really just isn’t true….and nobody else is buying that this example proves that, myself included.
– Mriswrith while fast do not move at the speed of thought, so to say that he could combat the weaves the same way that he could combat the mriswrith isn’t really viable. You would have to show somewhere in the SoT series where a magic spell was cast to defend against many invisible weaves.
So you’ll have to find other examples that explicitly state that Richard has used multiple attacks and explicitly states that he has defended multiple attacks if you want anyone else to believe this is possible. Which I have been trying to think of one anywhere else, and I come up with nothing. Maybe you can find another example, but I don’t think that you will.
3) The only time that I can ever think of that Richard made a shield was when he was shooting arrows in the Stone of Tears. The reality is though he didn’t actually block the arrow. He just made the air thicker so he could catch the arrow. Nowhere else is it stated that Richard created a shield of anything and blocked anything, magic or otherwise, which is why I basically stopped using the shield as a defense. Maybe he could somehow make the air thicker and disrupt the weaves, but I seriously doubt that would help him at all with some of the more destructive weaves that Rand can cast at him.
And btw all of C is assuming that he could even see the weaves in the first place, which hasn’t been proven, and more than likely will not be proven because it simply isn’t possible. So the question becomes how can Richard subconsciously, creatively, angrily, and needily defend against things that he can’t see moving at the speed of thought? And this is taking Richards ability to the extreme of his power, and Rands to the beginning of his power. Rand doesn’t have to use any of the more destructive weaves to dispatch Richard, he could do the same exact thing that he did to Egwene and Elayne, and Richard simply would be powerless…..there is absolutely nothing he can do. Bottom line.
As for the dream-world, the only way I see Rand using it is by making a gateway to the place where he not only has saidin but also mental control over reality. Rich ,if he followed Rand into the dream would also have controll over reality but he would be unfamiliar with how to use it. It is VERY unlikley to be used, as well as compulsion
As for Rand’s equivalent for BoO, he had the Cheodin Kal which gave him the power to clean saidin and destroy the world.
But both are not operable.
@Mike
Read my previous posts, and the previous posts of the other people here who support Rand/are fed up with you. I think we’ve made it abundantly clear by now why we are tired of you, why we find your logic erroneous, and why we no longer consider your fanboy ranting to be valid in this debate any longer. We’re no going to get anywhere if we continue to tear your arguments to pieces, yet you ignore our points, claim that they’re false, make up faulty logic that you claim “debunks” our posts, claim that your logic is flawless, and otherwise ignore reality and continue to keep your head up your fanboy ass.
But I’ll sum it up for you: 2+2 equalling 4 does not mean that sharks ride bicycles, so stop trying to “debate” with us if you are incapable of doing anything other than using meaningless points to try to “prove” your absurd fanon beliefs about SoT, or try to argue points that we have repeatedly proved or disproved simply by citing the most basic agreed upon points in either series. We’re tired of trying to make you see sense when you will not, and we’re tired of arguing with you pointlessly when you refuse to see reason. So, we’re not going to. It is in bad taste to encourage n00bs, trolls, fanboys, or other such persons by continuing to argue with them when it is clear the debate will go nowhere.
A good example for you. You are still trying to claim that Richard can cast thousands of spells at once. If you read the posts of any of us, you would know why this is untrue and why you are thus wrong to claim it, yet you continue to ignore good sense and continue to cite the same dead horse point over and over again. Frankly, you’re inability to grasp the simple facts makes you incorrigible to debate with.
But like I said, I’m done trying to show you how your fanboy logic fails, because clearly, you aren’t listening. So, I’m not going to bother responding to your continued use of incorrect “facts” regarding Richard’s power, or your pathetically misconceived notions of Richard being immune to confession.
I must, however, commend ptaine for his logical and lucid points in post #470, which spell out the flaws in Mike’s reasoning admirably. It pretty clearly spells out Rand’s victory in this match for anyone who isn’t sure.
Vin would own Richard Rahl. Three words: Pull and Push
“Vin would own Richard Rahl. Three words: Pull and Push”
Huh? When did Vin get involved? Isn’t this fight about Richard fighting Rand? I believe there’s a separate thread for the battle between Rahl and Vin.
@Ahem
I just got back from 9 hours of working and as such am a bit…numb. and now I realize my mistake…Mike will go there…
@ AHEM
I’ve been trying to defend Rahl for the better part of the past week or so, and my previous post was what I’ve been wrestling with the whole time. After the verbal ownage of your last few posts and several of the other people defending Rand I came to the inevitable conclusion that Rahl has been bested in this match. So as much as SoT is my favorite fantasy series I have to go with the logical outcome of this match. Thank you sir and my hats off to you…
@ptaine
a)in no way have i ever stated he could sense any magic rand has. and his sense of imminent danger would let him know something was coming, as it always has.
b)don’t even know why this would be a concern with sub.magic tearing through anything rand has.
c)knock it out of his hand or not i have just shown he can break magic on him without he sword being in hand(if it didn’t state it in hand just look it up on google boods with the quotes i mentioned). same page and all, just didn’t want to quote a whole page.
for the subtractive magic part i have just shown how it undoes rand’s magic making it obsolite, and richard could just do what he’s done before and cast a hell of a lot of lightning or for that matter ANY SUB.MAGIC to kill rand instantly.
“It explicitly says one bolt in the space of a heartbeat. You can infer all you want about 1000 lightning bolts, but it really just isn’t true….and nobody else is buying that this example proves that, myself included.”
- i hope you do know that one bolt is any size or shape of lightning. by definition. and any other time lightning was used in any situation it was a one shot one kill with no arcing. not to mention….”I can take heat from the air around us and add to it, multiply it,” multiplying is a major aspect of the sot universe. and even if no one believes me about what i’ve just proved, then explain to me how it(killing +1000 in the valley) happened?????? it didn’t abide by the regular rules of lightning. if you shoot a gun, and every time one bullet comes out, and then someone shoots a gun and a thousand bullets come out, what would you call it?
for the invisible part, he would know the general direction of rand because of his sense of life. wouldn’t know exactly where he is, but all of you fail to recognize that richard’s sub.magic is pretty much like balefire and he would shower the field with it, killing rand. or even as i stated before(which would be a huge advantage) make a dust cloud with spells exploding or otherwise and rand couldn’t see(disableing him as has happened in the books) and richard would see him with his sense. and kill him with sub.magic.
shields? rand has nothing to protect himself against richad’s sub.magic at all. even if we got into the debate of richard’s sheilds abilities rand would already be dead.
what am i even thinking, with this new understanding of sub.magic rand is just toast no matter what he does ,rand has nothing to protect himself, balefire i just proved would be “unweaved” and submagic would kill rand, he could maybe dodge if he wanted but either way that event did happen where he exploded a whole field of +1000 people with add. and sub.magic. rand would die in an instant with richard’s most basic attack of sub.magic lightning.
show me how rand would survive and you don’t even need to address my previous posts like you have so avoided.
you know what though, rand cannot survive a field wide sub.magic attack. even if he got off another attack and it happened to hit richard, rand would be dead already. holly crap. just found an instant win for richard.
he has nothing to defend it with and richard has shown it to kill in a non dodgable wide area.
thought, boom, dead. rand loses. plain as that. and it is as simple at that after i’ve showed you how sub.magic works. and what richard has done. just use sub.magic exactly the way he has before and rand is dead with no counters. cast whatever he wants at richard, maybe he’ll block it maybe not. but rand is dead in a point and thought
“just use sub.magic exactly the way he has before and rand is dead with no counters. cast whatever he wants at richard, maybe he’ll block it maybe not. but rand is dead in a point and thought”
Just use balefire exactly the way he has before and Richard is dead with no counters. Cast whatever he wants at Rand, he’ll block it, or balefire will undo it, but Richard is dead with a point and a thought.
you sir missed my point entirely, which i was fairly sure was going to happen given how it has happened basically this entire debate. my only point mike is that everyone here has taken your points and disproved them several times. just because you dont believe it doesn’t make it any less disproven, and you continue to use these disproven points as facts without bringing any other concrete evidence to the table to prove any of these facts true. while i personally agree that Richard is capable of some of the things you claim that he can do there is no proof other than extrapolation and supposition.
throughout this whole debate you have shown a complete lack of understanding of the way Rands power works and a complete misunderstanding of the way Richards power works. I want Richard to win, but in order to show that he can compete with Rand you need to show more evidence from the books, and not some crazy extrapolation using several passages from several different books to show Richard can do something. Rands powers are explicitly spelled out. Richards powers that are explicitly spelled out cannot compete with Rands. Bottom line.
If you want to keep arguing for Richard you need to make sure that you avoid the wizards first rule, and you must guard against the wizards sixth rule. I in no way believe that i can get through to you where others have not, but i hope that the irony of arguing for Richard while violating those two rules is not lost on you. I fear though that my hope will ultimately be in vein.
@ptaine
I’m glad to see that at least some people who support Richard here can see reason and concede a point where it is clear. The Sword of Truth series really gets a bad rep, what with fanboys like Mike coming on here and giving it a bad name. However, it really rounds out the matches and adds to them when people who support Richard but can admit when he’s lost a match, like yourself, participate. Especially given your excellent job of spelling Mike’s failings out to him.
Well, anyway, it’s Sunday. Just to reliterate Rand’s support for the Factpile Award:
AHEM, CIDE, NemoVonUtopia, Krazycrismore, Johnnyquest, Zazax, galorian, ptaine, Flagro, and Blood Dancer.
Ten nominations and counting. Rand for the award.
Waiter! Check please!
Tenth Nomination for Rand!
Mike, I’ve met some persistent rabid fanboys in my day, but you are tied for taking the cake!
i just showed you how balefire wouldn’t do anything to sub.magic. you guys are ignoring things again. i have showed you how sub.magic works with quotes from the books, and showed you a senario in which richard could use it to kill rand and rand would not be able to stop it, and would die and lose. you countered with nothing, just like rand, good job guys.
everyone keeps saying they disproved my points several times, what the hell. i’ve looked over this entire debate since you guys started to claim that and nothing like that has ever happened. all of you even refuse to give me one example of what you are even refering to. if you can’t provide proof then you didn’t do it.
you guys seem to just have gotten frustrated with me because i’ve put up some damn good arguments and have showed richard can win, just even in the last post i’ve had.
now ptaine is on board with you, maybe you(ptaine) can show me how they’ve proven me wrong???? because i can’t find it and they refuse to show me any proof of anything, not even just these so called debunkings, but also why they even think that my arguments are illogical other than that i’m a fanboy.
no one has disproved anything i’ve said. how many times are you guys going to claim that and show no proof of it?
rand has no deffense against sub.magic.
sub. magic undoes things=balefire’s weave is no more, and rand’s shields are no more.
everyone here thinks balefire is so awesome and it can beat anything, well i just showed you a coulple of times how it can be beaten and no one has responded to either. even got the way it would do it straight from the books, quoted them, posted page #s and everything.
I have been accused of being illogical, taking things out of context and many other things and i’ve asked you liers to show me exactly how. you haven’t because i didn’t. i on the other hand I have accused you of lying, misquoting, etc… and have shown evidence as how. none of you have a leg to stand on other than having #s on your side. i’ve proved how richard can win, and i’ve showed how you’ve broken the rules, lied, and misquoted. you haven’t shown anything on this whole page and most of the last other than this childish defense mechanism of just denying everything i’ve said and stating you’re right without proof.
@AHEM
Thats actually kind of crazy to think about given the philosophy that Terry Goodkind writes into his books. “wishes and whims are not facts and have no basis in reality”, so you would think if someone is truly a fan of the SoT series they would abide by some of its basic precepts. i gave some ideas on the way i think Richard could win, you guys said no with very convincing rebuttals and sound logic, and i couldn’t argue anymore. I mean it really is as simple as that, or at least it should be.
@Mike
Like i said i dont know if i can show your where others have not, but i will try one last time, and if you dont get it your not going to get it.
ok first of all i just want to clear up something. somewhere along the thread of this debate it turned into subtractive magic vs balefire, which is not the case. that is one likely scenario if these to guys meet on the field of battle to be sure, but not anywhere close to the only one. i understand what your saying about them interacting magically, but there are to many unknowns there so at best you could say they would cancel each other out……more than likely though the scenario everyone arguing for Rand will occur. Richard gets wiped from existence and his subtractive lightning is never fired. this is sound logic and i cannot refute it. for you to keep arguing against this shows a complete refusal to accept reality.
they’ve also shown how rands shields will block subtractive lightning.
-the only thing that Rands shields cannot block is balefire.
-subtractive lightning, while having similar properties to it, is not balefire because magic in the SoT series can block subtractive lightning, and balefire is not blockable. making them not equal.
-so this makes subtractive magic blockable by Rands shields.
i cannot argue with this logic either. while i personally think that subtractive lightning would take down Rands shield because of how it works i have no way to proove it, and this logic just makes to much sense. again your continuing to argue this point also shows a complete refusal to accept reality.
and i just want to point out my previous post about making crazy extrapolations. you claim that multiplying is a major aspect of SoT cannon, and applied that to the pillars of creation scenario. first off your example was about additive magic, specifically how to make wizards fire, so applying it to the pillars of creation example and saying this must be how he multiplied the lightning without having any concrete proof anywhere else that Richard has done this is a false assumption on your part.
–so Richards lightnings are blockable. you have not proved this otherwise.
–balefire is either negated or will do what it does, neither is a hinderance to Rand, it is to Richard
–Read post 470 and actually read it this time because nothing in there is false. and i never claimed that you said any of that possible except to debunk some of your claims. i just said these are things that Richard has to be able to do to even compete with Rand.
–having said all that my last question stands. how can Richard fight against dozens of weaves that are traveling at the speed of thought, and are invisible to him even if he can sense danger, which Richard as absolutly no way to defend against?
if you can somehow prove any of that (hint: you wont) you might have a leg to stand on. ive been trying to defend Richard, but i cant find anything in the books to refute any of that. if you can bring new concrete evidence to the table that might help your cause, but as i said before i dont think youll find it.
“if you can somehow prove any of that (hint: you wont) you might have a leg to stand on”
Deja vu. I told him the same thing in another thread and he came up with fake math.
”
@Mike
I think it was Admiral Kizaru who said something in the lines of: “Speed is power” (However that was taken from a Fansub so I’m not sure it’s accurate).
And if you want to go by strength, show me proof that Goku can move a planet or a whole bunch of them…then you’ll get your point across.
P.S. You won’t because he has never done so.”
From the Superman vs Goku thread
good someone is actually bringing up past points i’ve debunked. i’ll tell you again how and with quotes from the books.
““no. I can lift or crush or move the rock, but I can’t make it vanish. Where would it go? That’s called Subtractive Magic: the undoing of things.” page 583 wizard’s first rule.”
-that’s how sub.magic erases, it undoes what ever is there. balefire is a weave. it undoes the weave. it’s not that it hits the balefire and has a contest to see what’s stronger, it’s that instantly it’s not balefire anymore, and instantly it’s undone. nothing there to erase time, or destroy, or to counter anything. completely logical.
“they’ve also shown how rands shields will block subtractive lightning.
-the only thing that Rands shields cannot block is balefire.
-subtractive lightning, while having similar properties to it, is not balefire because magic in the SoT series can block subtractive lightning, and balefire is not blockable. making them not equal.
-so this makes subtractive magic blockable by Rands shields.”
-other than the properties of sub.magic i just showed. rand doesn’t have anything that blocks balefire which goes through or whatever it does(everyone states it’s unknown, lol) and sub.magic undoes everything. if he can’t clock balefire, he deffinetelly can’t block sub.magic. he has shown no similar properties to sub.magic which is what is required to block it. everytime in the sot series sub.magic of whatever varied spell was used was only blocked by something with sub.magic imbued in it, or actual sub.magic it self. you said “magic” can block sub.magic, that’s not the whole truth. only sub.magic can. if you want to say rand can block it, you’d have to show he has something with similar properties, which balefire is the closest and failed, or that something other than sub.magic blocked sub.magic in the sot series. you won’t find it. nothing can block it but itself because of it’s specific properties of undoing.
“and i just want to point out my previous post about making crazy extrapolations. you claim that multiplying is a major aspect of SoT cannon, and applied that to the pillars of creation scenario. first off your example was about additive magic, specifically how to make wizards fire, so applying it to the pillars of creation example and saying this must be how he multiplied the lightning without having any concrete proof anywhere else that Richard has done this is a false assumption on your part.”
-nice point but you missed some of the facts. the lightning richard used in the pillars of creation to kill those +1000 men was both additive and subtractive. the lightning that he sent through the peoples palace was only additive though. i only assumed that he multiplied it, people said that i needed to prove it so, i looked through the books and every time people any lightning was used it was one shot one kill, with no arcing even with other people(enemies included) near. so i proposed on how everyone wanted to take this as being multiplied(i thought more logical) or just that many spells at once(i thought a stretch). so since then, probably 200 some posts ago, i’ve been as you can read your self, refering to it as multiply/multiple. i’ts one or the other, or even the most illogical, both. no one has tried to explain why they think it wouldn’t be other than it’s illogical. which it isn’t because it has to be one of the two. and additive works off of adding(multiplying) things. that’s about as logical as it gets.
“–having said all that my last question stands. how can Richard fight against dozens of weaves that are traveling at the speed of thought, and are invisible to him even if he can sense danger, which Richard as absolutly no way to defend against?”
-sub.magic would block all of rand’s magic. richard now has control of his gift.
“A war wizard’s power comes from instinct and emotion, particularly driven by need and anger. A war wizard can use his power freely and with abandon if he understands the Wizard’s Eleventh and Final Rule.”
richard did understand the eleventh rule. it’s all here
sot.wikia.com/wiki/Wizard%27s_Rules
if everyone is still going to complain that wiki is not reliable, i’ve stated that most of it is from the books anyways along with that the way he understood the wizard’s eleventh rule involves him understanding the meaning behind the book “secrets of a war wizard’s power”. shields aren’t rare at all in the sot series. richard can use his gift at will now and he has sub.magic. He would have impenetrable armor to rand’s magic.
“since Richard’s gift has seen this attack before he has learned it, and can provide an adequate defense against in a cuendillar shield….which blocks Rand’s balefire….result….Stalemate.” – ptaine post #65 on one of the pages, i think it’s the 200s. richard has encountered many shields in the wizards keep sub.magic and additive alike, he knows them, has control of his gift, so he can cast them. very logical.
rand has no way to touch richard with magic. no matter what or how many he casts, even though i’ve shown that richard can have multiple/multiplied spells out there too.
and blood dancer, deja vu, implies something that reminds you of something that happens before, and you just applied it to a common phrase. lol. do you get deja vu every day then?
i don’t know what your deal is about the goku vs. superman thing is. i did no math wrong, i just used # i found on official game sites before i knew what canon meant, i even admitted being wrong afterwards.
“Secrets to a War Wizard’s Power” was using memory before, this is what the book was actually called. sorry for the triple post. the book was blank, but because it was such an important book and blank richard realized why it was left that way, something about seeking the truth and nothing is there until you know the truth, etc…something lke that, but the point is he figured out the secrets to his power from the teachings of the blank book, and the secret was also the wizard’s eleventh rule.
“deja vu, implies something that reminds you of something that happens before, and you just applied it to a common phrase. lol. do you get deja vu every day then?”
Here’s a lesson in semantics and grammar from a guy who wasn’t born in an english speaking country. Deja Vu is indeed what you said, however in this particular situation the term can be loosely applied, seeing as how back then I called you out to prove something that you could not with the aid of conjecture and fridge logic. Which is the same thing you are doing now. And ‘lol’ I wouldn’t use it here since i wrote nothing that was remotely funny.
“don’t know what your deal is about the goku vs. superman thing is.”
My deal with that thread? Your condescending attitude? Your lousy concession speech?
“i did no math wrong,”
All I saw were numbers in “…”.
Anyways, I have given my insight on this thread a few pages ago and as krazy kindly pointed out it’s highly unlikely that I will respond to you with relevant information.
So, Mike, you don’t have to worry about me pouncing at you anymore.
i “lol” laughed at the thought of you getting deja vu from everyday phrases. wasn’t trying to give any lessons dude. just thought it was funny how you got deja vu that way”loosely applied”.
never worried about it, just didn’t get how you could hold a grudge over something like that given how i conceded and didn’t know what main rules of internet debate were. if you really want to “pounce” on my posts, try to prove any of the bull you guys have said about my points on this thread about my last points that ptaine asked me to try to show, and i did. nothing illogical about it, everything proven, and no way for rand to win.
Wait for Sunday Mike. Admin gives out award on that day. Then we will see who is right and who isn’t. And I am not even worried about him being a Rahl fan.
“just didn’t get how you could hold a grudge over something like that given how i conceded and didn’t know what main rules of internet debate were”
Your condescending attittude.
if there’s any award it should be for rahl. i’ve shown you guys over and over again with quotes from the books and links to wiki showing what he can do and how it trumps rands abilities. the first counter point to be made in about 200 posts was ptaine who asked very good questions on how richard could beat rand’s abilities. sadly all of the rand supporters have been blabbering on about how they (falsely) proved me wrong for so long ptaine didn’t even know that his inquarry had already been answered before. so i explained again, in more detail with stuff from the books and wiki, exactly how and why everything works, making richard the obvious winner.
unless someone wants to argue with the facts that i’ve stated, i’m putting in a vote for richard rahl for factpile award.
“unless someone wants to argue with the facts that i’ve stated, i’m putting in a vote for richard rahl for factpile award.” – Mike
Bwahahahahahaha! You honestly think that Rahl could beat someone who is at least as powerful as an upper-tier DragonBall Z character? A man who could “crack the world like an egg”? A man who nearly unraveled reality itself? Sheesh.
laugh all you want, just look at the facts though. even in your mocking you give no counter to how i’ve proven richard rahl can win.
and i’ve shown that richard has much more power than that himself too.
“The sword may have been created later, but the magic invested in it was the magic created by the same wizards who created Orden.” – pg.589 confessor
the sword was made with the same magic by the same wizards that made the boxes of orden which can make universes and gods. richard in the temple of the winds showed he had the power to make the sword of truth. he has far more power than rand. besides the fact that rand has no defense against, and no offense that can defeat subtractive magic. so laugh all you want.
Yeah, balefire could just erase the subtractive magic, prevent the spell from ever being cast. Also, remember how I said Rand once nearly unravelled reality? That was with so much balefire being used. Yeah. Universe-busting balefire.
Ooh! I got an idea! Remember how my first fight was Rand and Kharn vs. 60 Million Uruk-Hai? How about Rand and Kharn vs. 60 Million Mikes?
i just explained why balefire wouldn’t do that in post #88, read it. never heard of him nearly unraveling reality either, i know that the true power damages the pattern and that whatever that war was a long time ago in the wot series, everyone stoped using balefire because it messes with the pattern but no one has shown that he almost unraveled time. he once hyperbol-ly stated he gathered up enough of the true power to destroy the world, but didn’t even state how ie. kill all life directly, blow up the planet, cause volcanic explosions making atmosphere unable to support life? it doesn’t give any explanation of how.
and just bluntly stating it is in no way bringing up how or why you even believe balefire would beat sub.magic, much less counter my point. all you said is it just does. when i explained with how they both work why it wouldn’t.