Rand al’Thor Vs Richard Rahl

Rand al'Thor Vs Richard Rahl

Suggested many times by many readers…

This is a battle that I knew had been coming for quite some time and couldn’t hold off anymore as I got soo many requests for this fight. Here we have Rand al’Thor from the Wheel of Time series up against Richard Rahl of the Sword of Truth/Legend of the Seeker universe.

For the battle we are using the book version of Rahl.

Rand has a power forged sword (unbreakable) and no power enhancing items. Richard has the Sword of Truth.

The battle takes place in the Aiel Waste.

Every reader of this site knows who I’m gonna take, what say you?

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4,484 Comments on "Rand al’Thor Vs Richard Rahl"

  1. ptaine March 2, 2012 at 10:07 pm -      #1901

    This thread took a direction I wouldn’t have thought…
    .
    That was what I talking about as far as a social experiment before in this thread Mike. ptaine is not exactly how I am in real life either, and to be honest if I could translate myself on this forum it would make things a hell of a lot easier to debate with you. You would understand that comprehension garbage is nonsense, and conversely I would know if you truly believe that or not. I know that sounds arrogant, and it is purposefully so, it also happens to be the truth regardless of whether you believe that or not. The problem is most of that comes from nonverbal cues, and a more genial rapport and a mutual understanding of one another.
    .
    The thing is it has nothing to do with subconsciously wanting to be another way in real life. It’s like acting, you create a persona and you react as that persona would in a given situation, and that isn’t necessarily how you would react. It makes things a hell of a lot more interesting for me and is one of the reasons I like this site….the fictional characters are a rather neutral way to debate because generally the irrationality that often comes with things like politics or religion aren’t always in play.

  2. Blood Dancer March 2, 2012 at 10:19 pm -      #1902

    “The thing is it has nothing to do with subconsciously wanting to be another way in real life. It’s like acting, you create a persona and you react as that persona would in a given situation, and that isn’t necessarily how you would react.”

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    Exactly.

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    Blood Dancer is Blood Dancer and I am not Blood Dancer.

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    I don’t want to be like him at all.

  3. Mike March 5, 2012 at 11:14 pm -      #1903

    “you are only questioning the ability to cast magic with just a thought, and that the speed of those thoughts do not directly apply to the perception of time(which is thoughts) they go into whenever they use their “han”(magic)
    .
    The oversimplification here still amuses me. So I will do an over exaggeration. If I have a thought to build a house the process of house building does not take the entirety of the thought even though the thought initiated the process. That is the fundamental flaw in your reasoning here. IF, and it’s a big if, the perception is in microseconds (and again that has never been proven either), it does not mean that a spell will be completed in that timeframe. You have never one time PROVEN that stance and that is the entire issue with your argument. It isn’t the speed of the thoughts, it’s the length of whatever process that is being initiated is because of those thoughts and how that correlates to the perception. That is where the fallacy of correlation implies causation comes from in your logic.”
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    -first off, the microseconds are proven even without agreeing with what i showed in the temple of the winds example. even if we take the maximum effective range of crossbows(about 40yards, look it up anywhere) and take a low end speed of 200mph, that still leaves richard’s perception at 1 second equaling 136 microseconds(if you want the math, i’ll post it).
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    “does not mean that a spell will be completed in that timeframe”
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    “Linked as they were, the female and male Han, the Additive and Subtractive Magic, they had enough destructive force to make wizard’s fire seem a candle by comparison. With a mere thought, she could level the hill atop which sat the fortress. With a mere thought, she could instantly level everything in the range of her sight, and possibly beyond.” ch.26 blood of the fold
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    ” As quick as thought, with thundering fury, the Additive and Subtractive Magic exploded outward in a murderous blast. ” ch.26 blood of the fold
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    “”You know your problem, Uiicia?” he asked, still chewing. “You use magic that you can unleash as quick as a thought.” ch.27 blood of the fold
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    -magic is used as quick as a thought, not started and have to wait for the spell to form as quick as a thought.
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    -opinions on that?

  4. ptaine March 6, 2012 at 7:07 am -      #1904

    -first off, the microseconds are proven even without agreeing with what i showed in the temple of the winds example. even if we take the maximum effective range of crossbows(about 40yards, look it up anywhere) and take a low end speed of 200mph, that still leaves richard’s perception at 1 second equaling 136 microseconds(if you want the math, i’ll post it).
    .
    You haven’t shown when Richard sensed the bolt to accurately apply any timeframe of perception, so what exactly are you using as a basis here?
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    opinions on that?
    .
    Again, Mike, none of that shows that the timeframe of “instant” and “quick as a thought” happens in microseconds because of the time perception. You are trying to force your opinion of fast as thought into the confines of the time perception while using descriptions of real time applications of that very same idea….
    .
    …These: As quick as a thought, magic exploded outward………unleashed quick as a thought……with a thought everything could be leveled instantly.
    .
    Don’t indicate this: ”magic is used as quick as a thought, not started and have to wait for the spell to form as quick as a thought.” or that the magic is used in totality within the confines of that thought. Or more accurately that the thought and the instant are directly tied together in the same moment of time which is what you are advocating. I really don’t see how you can continually deride me for arguing “opinions” when you are the one hellbent on validating your own without sufficient proof.

  5. Aelfinn March 6, 2012 at 8:09 pm -      #1905

    “With a mere thought, she could instantly level everything”
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    Using this as proof would be like me saying “With a mere thought, I could instantly move my hand”. That is true that my hand would start to move “instantly” from my perspective (not that it would cross the space instantly). If I suddenly saw everything in slo-mo, then this does not mean that my movement would still begin instantly.
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    “” As quick as thought, with thundering fury, the Additive and Subtractive Magic exploded outward in a murderous blast. ” ch.26 blood of the fold
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    “”You know your problem, Uiicia?” he asked, still chewing. “You use magic that you can unleash as quick as a thought.” ch.27 blood of the fold”
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    Notice how it says “as quick as thought”? That is just describing the speed of it. If I said a cheetah was as fast as a car, that is true if the car is about 70 mph. If the car accelerates to 300 mph, then that does not mean the cheetah reaches 300 mph, too. The cheetah is as fast as the vehicle in that instance.

  6. Mike March 10, 2012 at 5:43 pm -      #1906

    “You haven’t shown when Richard sensed the bolt to accurately apply any timeframe of perception, so what exactly are you using as a basis here?”
    -i used the entire flight of a bolt at effective range. that’s as low end as it can get for that calculation.
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    “Again, Mike, none of that shows that the timeframe of “instant” and “quick as a thought” happens in microseconds because of the time perception. You are trying to force your opinion of fast as thought into the confines of the time perception while using descriptions of real time applications of that very same idea….”
    -your post on the other thread indicated that you didn’t agree that the effects started as fast as thought, as in the spell needed time to form, not just be thought up. i provided 3 quotes stating that the effects are instantly there with the thought. the speed of those effects are determined by what the effects are though(explosion isn’t going to expand as fast as thought unless stated to do so, as Ulicia said).
    -cast with thought = fact, think fast = fact. you are saying that they don’t apply to each other. that makes no sense at all. hell, even in the scene where nicci was watching lightning coming at her slowly she was trying to think of a spell to cast to protect herself from it and only didn’t because of her diminished power. there wouldn’t be a need to try to think of a spell to cast if you couldn’t cast one in time.
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    “Don’t indicate this: ”magic is used as quick as a thought, not started and have to wait for the spell to form as quick as a thought.” or that the magic is used in totality within the confines of that thought.”
    -actually it specifically does say that. as quick as a thought it exploded out, unleash as quick as thought, with a mere thought can instantly level everything………those all say it is so.
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    @aelfinn
    “Using this as proof would be like me saying “With a mere thought, I could instantly move my hand”.”
    -wow, just wow. it’s not the same at all. the quote i provided gave a time frame and a distance, the example you provided gave the thought to do it, and not a time frame. the “instant” is the difference. it would be the same if you stated “With a mere thought, I could instantly move my hand to the table” because then there is a point of start and finish to put into the time frame.
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    “Notice how it says “as quick as thought”? That is just describing the speed of it. If I said a cheetah was as fast as a car, that is true if the car is about 70 mph. If the car accelerates to 300 mph, then that does not mean the cheetah reaches 300 mph, too. The cheetah is as fast as the vehicle in that instance.”
    -not just the speed, the application of it. hence the “with a mere thought” quote. comprehension failure.
    -the time perception that SoT magic users enter into would be the 300mph car in your analogy.
    -i still can’t believe how you guys don’t get “cast with thought” and “faster thought” = faster casting. casting is specifically dictated by the ability to think it into being, thinking faster or slower would not change any of it. that ‘s like saying you wouldn’t believe someone that thought slower would cast slower. it’s not even like the magic can’t be used in a smaller amount of time, it’s the MAGIC ITSELF that allows the perspective state.

  7. ptaine March 10, 2012 at 7:06 pm -      #1907

    Statements against the post on the Factpile Award thread: The fact of the matter is I haven’t accepted many of your opinions. I “believe” Rand can win a handful of sword fights because of his skill and Ta’varen nature. Yes, he will be severly hindered in a sword fight, but that doesn’t in any way mean that Richard will take all of them. And with magic I “believe” that Richard doesn’t stand a chance to win a majority, if any, fights here.
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    -i used the entire flight of a bolt at effective range. that’s as low end as it can get for that calculation.
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    Ok, so again I will ask you what are you using as a basis? A 200 MPH shot covering 40 yards, the equivalent of 293 FPS covering 120 feet, covers that distance in about 409 milliseconds. So where are you getting your microsecond figure?
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    ”-actually it specifically does say that. as quick as a thought it exploded out, unleash as quick as thought, with a mere thought can instantly level everything………those all say it is so.”
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    Really?! None of those quotes indicate the entire action of the spell happens in the span of microseconds. You are continually trying to force your interpretation onto those quotes using circular reasoning, and you are missing the point of actually PROVING the timeframe you are advocating beyond a circumstantial argument. If you can’t see that what you are arguing isn’t definitively proven with those quotes I really don’t know what to tell you.

  8. Mike March 10, 2012 at 7:42 pm -      #1908

    “The fact of the matter is I haven’t accepted many of your opinions.”
    -like i said on the award thread, none of this is my opinion, it’s just straight up quoted facts about the physical ability of richard combined with skill. richard outclasses rand in every way when it comes to sword fights, factually richard wins every single one.
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    “I “believe” Rand can win a handful of sword fights because of his skill and Ta’varen nature.”
    -his skill is outdone by richard’s and ta’varen qualities are just plot devices only usable by the author because of it. you cannot base a victory off of an unquantifiable factor.
    -”belief” that someone will win is against the rules to use as a point for a victory of any nature.
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    “Yes, he will be severly hindered in a sword fight, but that doesn’t in any way mean that Richard will take all of them”
    -like i said, physically superior(not to mention 2 hands) and better skilled. if you can find a factor that rand is better than richard in that affects a sword fight then by all means bring it up.
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    “And with magic I “believe” that Richard doesn’t stand a chance to win a majority, if any, fights here.”
    -with the sword part going all to richard, you only have to “believe” richard would win 1 of 50 fights for richard to win the award. besides, as i said before, even if there isn’t any altered perception of time and richard uses magic with thought, that means that rand and richard have roughly equivalent casting speeds along with each having one hit kill spells. if you honestly think richard won’t win 1 of 50, then you are truly delusional.
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    “Ok, so again I will ask you what are you using as a basis? A 200 MPH shot covering 40 yards, the equivalent of 293 FPS covering 120 feet, covers that distance in about 409 milliseconds. So where are you getting your microsecond figure?”
    -that .4090909….. of a second seeming like an hour to him. and it cannot be any lower than that because when addressing the subject of what that hour was in relation to he was talking about the imminent danger of the bolt(even if you don’t believe that when he says a distance and a time for how long that distance was to be for an object traveling it, that when he says how long that time frame to him seemed like means he is basing it off of the previously mentioned distance and time……which is completely retarded).
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    “Really?! None of those quotes indicate the entire action of the spell happens in the span of microseconds.”
    -i never said the whole action of the spell happens in the microseconds, i said the spell is formed in the time frame of thought and starts it’s actions limited to it’s properties. lightning would move at a good chunk of relatavistic speed, explosions would move at speeds relating to real life examples of HE that moved at that speed(you can actually directly relate things like that by analyzing the destructive force of it to get speed and what type of HE it would be most similar to and then we would have a known speed for that amount of force).
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    “ou are continually trying to force your interpretation onto those quotes using circular reasoning, and you are missing the point of actually PROVING the timeframe you are advocating beyond a circumstantial argument.”
    -they say the spell is unleashed as quick as thought. that’s a finished spell doing what it is made to do, not a spell started with a thought, then having to form before having it’s effects. one of the quotes even directly states the thought is the time frame of the destruction of the spell in completion.
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    “If you can’t see that what you are arguing isn’t definitively proven with those quotes I really don’t know what to tell you.”
    -if you could comprehend what is being discussed then you would not be so confused about this matter……..

  9. ptaine March 10, 2012 at 8:22 pm -      #1909

    -if you could comprehend what is being discussed then you would not be so confused about this matter……..
    .
    Ah, so you are going to continue harping on the comprehension thing? Good for you my friend, however, a biased opinion in no way indicates a lack of comprehension, so we can continue this useless back and forth if you wish since you pretentiously think that you have a greater ability to comprehend quotes. Obviously you seem to think that you have struck a nerve, but I assure you all you are doing is continuing to make yourself look like an ass. So, please, continue with your unbacked assertions…
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    ”-like i said, physically superior(not to mention 2 hands) and better skilled. if you can find a factor that rand is better than richard in that affects a sword fight then by all means bring it up”
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    Physically superior and better skilled is an opinion, it is not a factual stance by any means. Based on quotes from both series they are on par with each other, and Richard holds an advantage here solely because of Rand lacking a hand. That doesn’t in any way mean that Richard will win every sword fight.
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    that means that rand and richard have roughly equivalent casting speeds along with each having one hit kill spells. if you honestly think richard won’t win 1 of 50, then you are truly delusional.
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    Which is what I have been saying all along, neither fighter holds an advantage with casting speeds. But the one hit kills gets into the Subtractive Magic argument, and you will still be hardpressed to convince me that Balefire isn’t superior here, despite your attempts of……..what 5? Ways to out maneuver Balefire with Subtractive Magic. That are solely based on semantics and fallacious reasoning?
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    -i never said the whole action of the spell happens in the microseconds, i said the spell is formed in the time frame of thought and starts it’s actions limited to it’s properties
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    And yet that is what you are continually arguing against. The action of the spell MAY, START, in microseconds, but that in no way indicates a completed spell in that same timeframe which is what I have been arguing, and what you are seemingly arguing against.
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    -they say the spell is unleashed as quick as thought. that’s a finished spell doing what it is made to do, not a spell started with a thought, then having to form before having it’s effects. one of the quotes even directly states the thought is the time frame of the destruction of the spell in completion.
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    While I can see how you would derive that particular interpretation, that quote doesn’t exactly specify that and therein lies the problem. It says the destruction happens in the span of a thought, but it doesn’t tie the thought and the destruction together in the same timespan…..do you really not understand this? You have definitively tied MICROSECONDS to quotes the only, sort of, prove that idea. THAT is the entire problem, nothing is concrete here.
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    -that .4090909….. of a second seeming like an hour to him. and it cannot be any lower than that because when addressing the subject of what that hour was in relation to he was talking about the imminent danger of the bolt
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    But, you are still asserting that the hour holds some sort of meaningful context beyond hyperbole when nothing in canon actually proves otherwise. 409 milliseconds is a max number based off of a modern crossbow, but all of that is still assumptions that are in no way ABSOLUTELY validated by the evidence. And, AGAIN, Rand has the possibility of reacting to a magical attack in 2.4 milliseconds. The entire point being that Richard holds no advantage with your argument.

  10. Mike March 10, 2012 at 9:27 pm -      #1910

    “Ah, so you are going to continue harping on the comprehension thing? Good for you my friend, however, a biased opinion in no way indicates a lack of comprehension, so we can continue this useless back and forth if you wish since you pretentiously think that you have a greater ability to comprehend quotes. Obviously you seem to think that you have struck a nerve, but I assure you all you are doing is continuing to make yourself look like an ass. So, please, continue with your unbacked assertions…”
    -you didn’t even understand my argument which i laid out very clearly and have used on both wot vs sot and rand vs richard for almost a year now. that the spell is there as fast as thought but has to abide by what it is to determine how fast it’s effects reach out. you very clearly didn’t understand this. so complain about it all you want, it is true.
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    “Physically superior and better skilled is an opinion, it is not a factual stance by any means. Based on quotes from both series they are on par with each other, and Richard holds an advantage here solely because of Rand lacking a hand. That doesn’t in any way mean that Richard will win every sword fight.”
    -there is no opinion about this. i posted quotes of richard doing things that are beyond peak human and of his experience being far far more than rand. even the feats of people they have each fought are far in richard’s favor, in that the baka tau mana are 50/1 fighters and no one in the wot universe was shown to be that good, and richard beat 30 in one fight. then factor in that rand only has one hand and you get a sword fight stomp.
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    “Which is what I have been saying all along, neither fighter holds an advantage with casting speeds. But the one hit kills gets into the Subtractive Magic argument, and you will still be hardpressed to convince me that Balefire isn’t superior here, despite your attempts of……..what 5? Ways to out maneuver Balefire with Subtractive Magic. That are solely based on semantics and fallacious reasoning?”
    -you mean the 5 that still stand without proof of them being what you say? yeah, those 5(or however many it was).
    -sub.magic and balefire aren’t even a factor in this though. there won’t be any spell being cast by either of these two that would allow another normal speed thought which means the only thing that makes balefire more than a one hit kill in this(the retro actions) will not be a factor to counter act anything.
    -i know it’s what you have been saying all along, this is a what if scenario where i stop arguing for casting withing the acute time perception state where i have shown that even with things working the way you want them to, it is impossible for rand to win them all.
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    “And yet that is what you are continually arguing against.”
    -not at all. this is exactly why your comprehension is horrible. i have never once stated that the effects of the spell move in any manner other than what is obvious and true to it’s nature. i have only said that those spells come into being as a whole as fast as the thought that thought it.
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    “The action of the spell MAY, START, in microseconds, but that in no way indicates a completed spell in that same timeframe which is what I have been arguing, and what you are seemingly arguing against.”
    -quit messing everything up you tard. microseconds have nothing to do with the spell conversation and i have never mixed them. this is about when the spell starts to have it’s effects. as in think “explosion” and the explosion happens at the end of the thought, not think “explosion” and magic starts to work to create an explosion after the thought and finishes the action of making a completed spell some time later.
    -the quotes i provided each show that the effects of the spells are directly related to the time of a thought, and that time is the actual thought.
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    “While I can see how you would derive that particular interpretation, that quote doesn’t exactly specify that and therein lies the problem. It says the destruction happens in the span of a thought, but it doesn’t tie the thought and the destruction together in the same timespan…..do you really not understand this?”
    -holy cow man……… “With a mere thought, she could instantly level everything in the range of her sight, and possibly beyond”
    -that is the thought of the spell and the time it takes to have effects after the thought. you are flat out wrong. and unless you want to take the “quick as a thought” as the effects speed, it means it’s the application of how the spell is cast, and is directly related to them saying they cast with a thought. your whole logic on this matter is preposterous; for your thought of this being assumption on my part to be true, every spell in the SoT universes completed effects would have to happen within the time frame of a thought, of which we know they all don’t.
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    “But, you are still asserting that the hour holds some sort of meaningful context beyond hyperbole when nothing in canon actually proves otherwise.”
    -nothing indicates it is a hyperbole and we have gone over this a long time ago. there’s literally a dozen or so aspects that show that time was slowed down to a great margin and we know that altered time is a fact. to say it’s a hyperbole you would have to show that richard was for some reason embelishing the situation or unable to correctly keep track of time; when the fact is that it was written in a manner of inner thoughts from a narrative objective and he has shown he is adept at knowing the time going as far to know how to read celestial bodies and by just checking the sun; hell the man built a sundial. so once again completely wrong.
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    “409 milliseconds is a max number based off of a modern crossbow, but all of that is still assumptions that are in no way ABSOLUTELY validated by the evidence.”
    -that is a factual number based on factual real life speeds of bows and bolts that are able to cover the distances(thus having to have the speed) that SoT bows and crossbows are able to achieve. .40909…. is as fact as anything can get.
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    “And, AGAIN, Rand has the possibility of reacting to a magical attack in 2.4 milliseconds. The entire point being that Richard holds no advantage with your argument.”
    -that is the most ridiculous thing ever brought up on favor of anything wot related. for some reason you guys think that a few quotes that are vague informationally incomplete show that the main character has relatavistic speeds when nothing in the entire series other than those two dubious quotes shows anything beyond peak human for the same guy?……..and you claim this after the audacity to refuse to accept the time perception ability when i had dozens and dozens of quotes for it from multiple people and argued with you guys for about a year, and you only accepted it when i provided a quote that directly stated it to be an ability? go to hell you hypocrite.

  11. ptaine March 10, 2012 at 10:22 pm -      #1911

    ”-you didn’t even understand my argument which i laid out very clearly and have used on both wot vs sot and rand vs richard for almost a year now. that the spell is there as fast as thought but has to abide by what it is to determine how fast it’s effects reach out. you very clearly didn’t understand this. so complain about it all you want, it is true.”
    .
    I understand the idea just fine you fucking moron, YOU don’t understand that you have not substantiated that argument. I UNDERSTAND HOW YOU ARE DERIVING THE ARGUMENT! But, and here is where you continually misjudge what I am arguing against, the evidence does not support you absolutely. I can, LEGITIMATELY, derive a much slower reaction time from the evidence you have presented AND I can present similar reaction times from Rand using similar assumptions. It’s a fucking stupid argument, and has been since you brought it up. If you are going to argue comprehension, at least be right you idiot.
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    -there is no opinion about this. i posted quotes of richard doing things that are beyond peak human and of his experience being far far more than rand.
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    Of course there is opinion in your assertion, if you really think otherwise you are delusional. And, experience, while important, counts for jackshit when you are dealing with fighters of Richard and Rand’s caliber. Yes, the hand can become a liability, and I’m not suggesting otherwise, but Richard is NOT going to stomp Rand in a sword fight. He will probably win a majority, but not all like you continually assert.
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    -i know it’s what you have been saying all along, this is a what if scenario where i stop arguing for casting withing the acute time perception state where i have shown that even with things working the way you want them to, it is impossible for rand to win them all.
    .
    And that is all well and good, but it still doesn’t negate the one hit kills are based off of Subtractive Magic and Balefire. Every other attack is blockable. And I have provided the fallacious reasoning that your arguments are based off of for the interactions between the two attacks so it really just goes around in circles at this point.
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    -not at all. this is exactly why your comprehension is horrible. i have never once stated that the effects of the spell move in any manner other than what is obvious and true to it’s nature. i have only said that those spells come into being as a whole as fast as the thought that thought it.
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    And this is why you are an idiot. The spell may start at the initiation of the thought, but that in no way indicates that the entire spell happens that fast. Richard thinks a spell, it starts to form as his Han reaches out, and then the spell proceeds from that point. BUT, nothing, and I mean nothing, indicates that the spell will happen in 682 microseconds per your assumptions from the Temple of the Winds quote. Pay attention to the ideas that are being argued, it really isn’t that hard.
    .
    -nothing indicates it is a hyperbole and we have gone over this a long time ago. there’s literally a dozen or so aspects that show that time was slowed down to a great margin and we know that altered time is a fact. to say it’s a hyperbole you would have to show that richard was for some reason embelishing the situation or unable to correctly keep track of time; when the fact is that it was written in a manner of inner thoughts from a narrative objective and he has shown he is adept at knowing the time going as far to know how to read celestial bodies and by just checking the sun; hell the man built a sundial. so once again completely wrong.
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    Oh, thank you for telling me that. I would’ve TOTALLY forgotten all of that. Seriously you are continually changing the argument I am making to suit your ideas here. How long does it take for an explosion to expand out from where it is initiated from? And where exactly is the proof that shows that the explosion is directly tied to a thought that happens in microseconds?
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    -that is a factual number based on factual real life speeds of bows and bolts that are able to cover the distances(thus having to have the speed) that SoT bows and crossbows are able to achieve. .40909…. is as fact as anything can get.
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    And I’m not disagreeing with this number. If you had bothered to read anything I have posted on this subject you would see that I have provided numbers similar. That still doesn’t show that Rand wouldn’t be able to react to a spell formed in this timeframe and that is the problem.
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    -that is the most ridiculous thing ever brought up on favor of anything wot related. for some reason you guys think that a few quotes that are vague informationally incomplete show that the main character has relatavistic speeds when nothing in the entire series other than those two dubious quotes shows anything beyond peak human for the same guy?……..and you claim this after the audacity to refuse to accept the time perception ability when i had dozens and dozens of quotes for it from multiple people and argued with you guys for about a year, and you only accepted it when i provided a quote that directly stated it to be an ability? go to hell you hypocrite
    .
    FUCK YOU! Holy shit. I can’t even believe that you would even argue something so fucking idiotic when I have gone out of my way to explicitly state that my calculation aren’t based off of relativistic speeds.
    .
    140,000 MPH IS NOT RELATIVISTIC! Pay attention you idiot.
    .
    AND AGAIN. My argument has NEVER centered around the time perception actually happening. IT’S ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT WHAT THAT COMPARISON MEANS! Go read the posts when I argued against that you idiot and actually understand what the fuck I am saying.

  12. fallstar thief March 10, 2012 at 10:48 pm -      #1912

    shouldnt elementle compatibility allow rand to remove rahls ability to use magic?

  13. StealthRanger March 10, 2012 at 10:50 pm -      #1913

    Yes. Same reason why the force effects non force senstitives and the warp is considered magic

  14. Mike March 11, 2012 at 12:02 am -      #1914

    @fallstar
    -no, they are different enough to where it could not work. WoT blocks an outside force that is their magic, SoT uses a force from inside themselves.
    -
    -
    -
    @ptaine
    “I understand the idea just fine you fucking moron, YOU don’t understand that you have not substantiated that argument. I UNDERSTAND HOW YOU ARE DERIVING THE ARGUMENT! But, and here is where you continually misjudge what I am arguing against, the evidence does not support you absolutely. I can, LEGITIMATELY, derive a much slower reaction time from the evidence you have presented AND I can present similar reaction times from Rand using similar assumptions. It’s a fucking stupid argument, and has been since you brought it up. If you are going to argue comprehension, at least be right you idiot.”
    -lol, you do realize that i said you don’t understand because you literally responded to something i didn’t say and you claim i did right? so yes, you don’t comprehend it either from your lack of general intelligence, or reading and comprehension failure. fuck man even you bitching about time frames and reaction times clearly shows you don’t understand since i never even mentioned them in the point and they are not relevant to it. re read what you thought you understood about my argument and maybe you’ll see.
    -
    -
    -
    “Of course there is opinion in your assertion, if you really think otherwise you are delusional.”
    -you are a fucking idiot. when i post quotes that show richard doing things that are humanly impossible, it is not my opinion that it is humanly impossible.
    -
    -
    -
    “And, experience, while important, counts for jackshit when you are dealing with fighters of Richard and Rand’s caliber.”
    - this “opinion” of yours doesn’t negate teh FACT that experience is a factor in any fight and having more is better. you seem to be using a lot of argument from belief today to make your “points”.
    -
    -
    -
    “Yes, the hand can become a liability, and I’m not suggesting otherwise, but Richard is NOT going to stomp Rand in a sword fight. He will probably win a majority, but not all like you continually assert.”
    -see what i mean? you use the word “probably” when you don’t have anything to substantiate your this opinion, other than your own opinion. you are basing opinion on opinion in a factual debate. bad form ptaine.
    -
    -
    -
    “And that is all well and good, but it still doesn’t negate the one hit kills are based off of Subtractive Magic and Balefire. Every other attack is blockable. And I have provided the fallacious reasoning that your arguments are based off of for the interactions between the two attacks so it really just goes around in circles at this point.”
    -you are assuming that two offensive thinnish attacks are going to strike each other. “assuming” is the key word here.
    -
    -
    -
    “And this is why you are an idiot. The spell may start at the initiation of the thought, but that in no way indicates that the entire spell happens that fast.”
    -the quotes state it outright. the effects are instant with the thought.
    -
    -
    -
    “Richard thinks a spell, it starts to form as his Han reaches out, and then the spell proceeds from that point. BUT, nothing, and I mean nothing, indicates that the spell will happen in 682 microseconds per your assumptions from the Temple of the Winds quote. Pay attention to the ideas that are being argued, it really isn’t that hard.”
    -yep, you have no reading and comprehension ability at all. this in no way has anything to do with time frame ever mentioned before, just in the process of how the spell is formed, and the quotes state it outright that it is instantly done with the thought.
    -
    -
    -
    “Oh, thank you for telling me that. I would’ve TOTALLY forgotten all of that. Seriously you are continually changing the argument I am making to suit your ideas here. ”
    -i have not changed it once, but you either repeatedly change it to troll, or don’t have the comprehension skills to be able to hold a conversation. this is shown in how you talk about what is not being talked about above.
    -
    -
    -
    “How long does it take for an explosion to expand out from where it is initiated from? And where exactly is the proof that shows that the explosion is directly tied to a thought that happens in microseconds?”
    -depending on the strength of the explosion and it having to be in the HE range and not below(only HE produce blast waves), it can be 4k to 25k fps, and that ‘s just commercially available explosives. www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/explosives.htm
    -and there you go with microseconds again. right now all i am doing is showing it happens directly with the thought, you are the only one who thinks that right now i am trying to use this information to prove the thoughts in the altered time perspective can also create spells relative to them. hence your comprehension failure.
    -
    -
    -
    “And I’m not disagreeing with this number. If you had bothered to read anything I have posted on this subject you would see that I have provided numbers similar.”
    -so not only do you try the hyperbole card, you then try and say you don’t disagree with it being a fact when you specifically said its assumptions in post 1909, and even stated the rand reaction thing as a side note(just so you don’t try and say they were part of the same thing, i’ll point it out now).
    -you are just completely full of shit today.
    -
    -
    -
    “That still doesn’t show that Rand wouldn’t be able to react to a spell formed in this timeframe and that is the problem.”
    -you have not shown any reaction time for rand anywhere. humans can’t react to explosives if they are relatively close. = rand has not been shown to be able to react to an explosion of any HE explosive.
    -
    -
    -
    “FUCK YOU! Holy shit. I can’t even believe that you would even argue something so fucking idiotic when I have gone out of my way to explicitly state that my calculation aren’t based off of relativistic speeds.”
    -you can do your calculations based on whatever you want, the fact is though that lightning travels at very different speeds, some of which are up to 1/3 the speed of light. so what you find and then say rand can react to has no precidence what so ever unless you can prove that both instances you are basing his “lightning dodging” feats off of, are on the slow end of the scale of speed capable by it. www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/wea00/wea00189.htm
    -this has a post from someone at the U.S. department of energy office of science argon national labratory and works in the atmospheric research section environmental research division saying it is normally under half the speed of light and usually much less, and another post that brings up that the discovery channel put out a video that showed them figuring it out to be 60,000 mps which is about 1/3 the speed of light.
    -
    -
    -
    “140,000 MPH IS NOT RELATIVISTIC! Pay attention you idiot.”
    -i never said it was YOU idiot. just because you use an assumed figure doesn’t mean every one has to abide by that. besides, you didn’t address the actual point i made in bringing this up…….you being a hypocrite in that you want something to be taken into account when you can’t even prove it happened, much less how fast it is, when you wouldn’t accept a similar concept that had a dozen times more evidence.
    -
    -
    -
    “AND AGAIN. My argument has NEVER centered around the time perception actually happening. IT’S ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT WHAT THAT COMPARISON MEANS! Go read the posts when I argued against that you idiot and actually understand what the fuck I am saying.”
    -did you have a stroke or something? whether or not it revolved around it or not, you wouldn’t accept it as fact, and that ‘s what matters in relation to how you are being a complete hypocrite right now. it’s clear who doesn’t understand what is being said.

  15. frothbyte March 11, 2012 at 12:10 am -      #1915

    Even if Rand can sense Rahl’s additive/subtractive magic, I doubt he can shield him. Despite Rahl not having that much control over his gift, there’s no doubt that he has a lot of raw power.

    Shielding only works if you’re a lot stronger than your opponent in power or if you can take him by surprise. Considering that these two will fight with a heads up, I doubt Rand can shield Rahl.

    I also believe that Rahl’s additive/subtractive lightning has as good a chance of killing Rand as balefire has of killing Rahl.

    What I do think gives Rand the sure victory though is his sheer mastery of his powers. Rahl is very fickle with his powers, and even with the latest books he still has trouble summoning basic spells at will.

  16. fallstar thief March 11, 2012 at 12:11 am -      #1916

    “no, they are different enough to where it could not work. WoT blocks an outside force that is their magic, SoT uses a force from inside themselves.”
    he stops them from drawing upom thier magic.
    unless i see a good reason it wouldnt work this is what rand does to rahl.
    also without the ability to tap into his magic he wouldnt get the enhanced reaction time correct?

    on another note
    “in that the baka tau mana are 50/1 fighters and no one in the wot universe was shown to be that good, and richard beat 30 in one fight. then factor in that rand only has one hand and you get a sword fight stomp.”
    in responce to this rand fight multiple ail each of whom are worth multiple elite soldiers. i mean competent soldiers not the crap in sot

  17. Mike March 11, 2012 at 12:31 am -      #1917

    “What I do think gives Rand the sure victory though is his sheer mastery of his powers. Rahl is very fickle with his powers, and even with the latest books he still has trouble summoning basic spells at will.”
    -there is not one instance of him trying to use magic in a fight or when others are threatened and it not working.
    -
    -
    -
    “he stops them from drawing upom thier magic.
    unless i see a good reason it wouldnt work this is what rand does to rahl.”
    -WoT shielding stops magic users from being able to draw from the source outside their body, it’s completely different fundamentally.
    -
    -
    -
    “in responce to this rand fight multiple ail each of whom are worth multiple elite soldiers. i mean competent soldiers not the crap in sot”
    -the best the aeil have shown is beating 3 to one when they took over that fortress. rand has quotes up on this site somewhere where he shows that he fights people to use to train against him and if they draw blood he gives them a coin and they make the cut of being a sparring partner, in the same quote he states he wants to be better than some other guy who is good enough to fight 5 people at once and that he is not there yet. the baka tau mana kill 50/1 and richard killed 30 in one fight while surrounded. you may not like it, but SoT has much better fighters than WoT, and richard is better on at least a scale of 30/1 than the best of those.

  18. StealthRanger March 11, 2012 at 12:32 am -      #1918

    Dark Schneider for the FP Award

  19. frothbyte March 11, 2012 at 1:06 am -      #1919

    While I do agree that Rand wins this, please let us not disrespect Rahl where respect is due.
    ——————————————————————
    Rahl is definitely the better swordsman. He did beat a group of baka ban mana, first while they were coming at him one at a time, then later all together. Rand has difficulties beating 5 good swordsmen.
    ——————————————————————
    Like I said in my previous post, I really don’t think Rand can easily shield Rahl’s power. You have to remember that for someone in WoT to shield another, he/she has to be a lot stronger than the other in power, or at least get the jump on the opponent. Despite Rahl not having as much control over his power, there is no question that he has a huge huge power store. And I don’t think Rand outpowers him enough such that he can shield Rahl.

    As for Rahl’s power not once failing him in combat, the ONLY thing I’ve seen him do in combat is his lighting strike. Though it’s pretty destructive, it sure doesn’t give him that much creativity against rand. Considering that Rand can make the ground explode under Rahl, make walls of air, lighting storms, fire storms, rotating death gates… and then all Rahl can do is lightning? Sure, I still stand by my earlier argument that Rahl’s lightning can kill Rand as easily as balefire can kill rahl but still… Rahl will need to get way more creative and tactical here if he hopes to win this.

  20. Mike March 11, 2012 at 1:26 am -      #1920

    “As for Rahl’s power not once failing him in combat, the ONLY thing I’ve seen him do in combat is his lighting strike. Though it’s pretty destructive, it sure doesn’t give him that much creativity against rand. Considering that Rand can make the ground explode under Rahl, make walls of air, lighting storms, fire storms, rotating death gates… and then all Rahl can do is lightning? Sure, I still stand by my earlier argument that Rahl’s lightning can kill Rand as easily as balefire can kill rahl but still… Rahl will need to get way more creative and tactical here if he hopes to win this.”
    -he’s done the lightning twice(faith of the fallen and the naked empire), a concusive fiery blast(stone of tears), and used a pure form of his magic(additive side, so sub. would be able to be done also) to kill the blood beast(confessor). might be more but i can’t think of anymore off the top of my head, but those are only the direct offensive spells.
    -being tactical doesn’t matter if both cast near instantly and both have an insta kill shot. the tactical aspects would be useful in the wot vs sot debate but not so much here since it will be a magic speed blitz.

  21. frothbyte March 11, 2012 at 1:33 am -      #1921

    @Mike: I forgot about the fire blast. But anyways, the insta kill shots will only work if this was like a quick draw shoot out. First one to fire wins. But from what we’ve seen from both Rand and Rahl, they don’t exactly just stand there when competing against similarly strong opponents. They use the environment, running around, ducking, dodging, in Rand’s case weaving in and out of gateways. If it does come to a quick draw shootout, then both of them dies, the other just dies a micro second later. However if this fight lasts more than the first draw, and I believe it most likely will, then tactical advantages and creative magic manipulation will play a big role in the outcome.

  22. Mike March 11, 2012 at 3:48 am -      #1922

    “But from what we’ve seen from both Rand and Rahl, they don’t exactly just stand there when competing against similarly strong opponents.”
    -another reason why the aim dodgeable balefire can be avoided by the low end bullet timer richard, and then add in the fact that richard’s add.&sub. magic lightning explosion would kill rand no matter where he dodged, even the time of the movement to go through the gate would be too much and he would be caught in the explosion.
    -
    -
    -
    “If it does come to a quick draw shootout, then both of them dies, the other just dies a micro second later.”
    -if it’s a straight out quickdraw it would then be who can cast faster and that is exactly what i have pointed out richard is faster at through multiple means. no one wants to accept that the thoughts while in an acute perception of time still activate the spells relative to the thought still. if that were the case, nicci in the book confessor wouldn’t have been thinking of what to cast to block the lightning….
    -
    -
    -
    “Despite her power being so diminished that the commitment of force failed, in that instant of connecting with her Han, Nicci still had enough use of her gift to feel the familiar shift in her perception of time.
    Her arms and legs felt like lead. The world, within the tunnel of her vision, seemed to slow almost to a stop.
    She could see every bit of stone tumbling as it flew toward her through the smoky passageway. She would have had ample time to have counted them all while suspended in midair. She could see each chip, flake, and speck rotating as it flew. All the while the lightning thrashed wildly, lashing ever so slowly back and forth, leaving a dazzling tracing of afterglow in Nicci’s vision. The lightning blasted through stone wherever it touched.
    At the same time as the world slowed, her mind raced, trying to think of a way to stop what was inexorably coming toward them.
    But there was nothing within her ability to conjure that could stop Additive and Subtractive Magic laced together in such a violent mix. The power of it cut through stone down to bedrock. The air itself sizzled.” ch.20 Confessor
    -
    -
    -that and by the same logic, slower thinking would mean slower casting which comes down to wot supporters basically wanting proof that the magic can come into being/work that fast even when it is directly stated to be as fast as thought and opperate at the level of perception because it actually is what causes the perception. really doesn’t make sense to me how they don’t see it, it’s placing a restriction on SoT magic where none is stated or seen all while i can show magic being used in that mind set, just not to their liking in how fast it was cast(the temple of the winds instance). eh, as long as i’m on it, i’ll post the quote again with some comments on it…
    -
    -
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    “Richard paused. His head came up. Nadine was behind him. He had the oddest sensation.
    The hair on the back of his neck stiffened. Richard heard the air whine as he spun.
    The world slowed. Sound dragged. He floated as he moved. The air felt as thick as mud. Everyone seemed a statue in his vision. Time was his.
    His arm stretched out as he drifted ahead. He commanded the thickness of the air. In the eerie silence, he could hear the feathers singing. He could hear the hiss of blade. Time was his. Nadine’s startled blink took forever. He closed his fist.
    With a slam of sound, the world crashed back with a wild rush. In his fist, Richard held a bolt from a crossbow. The blade wasn’t three inches from Nadine’s wide eyes.
    A fraction of a second more and it would have killed her. That fraction of a second had been an hour to him.”
    -
    -what this quote means to the topic at hand is if it can be shown that he controlled the air stopping the bolt relative to how fast he was able to think. now on a low end scale the spell was done within a “fraction of a second” which is vague but generally the term “fraction” is applied to units that are less than half. on a high end scale we take what is stated to be how magic works in that universe. in an average scale to look at it, we know richard was already reaching for the bolt before he stated to control the air, and we know richard can move his arms very fast (calculations done for the mud people arrow shooting arrow scene posted on a few threads on this site) and this puts his arm reaching forward at .00666…. of a second, so in that time frame the spell was thought of and enacted it’s effects…..actually that would make that one the low end calculation since it has set fact parameters. i’ll leave it at that for now, but it does show that richard can cast while in that state and it being much much faster than normal human thinking.

  23. ptaine March 11, 2012 at 5:23 am -      #1923

    ”-did you have a stroke or something? whether or not it revolved around it or not, you wouldn’t accept it as fact, and that ‘s what matters in relation to how you are being a complete hypocrite right now. it’s clear who doesn’t understand what is being said.”
    .
    What the fuck are you talking about? I am sick and tired of you continually telling me what I am thinking when you are clearly wrong about it. I have always, AND I MEAN ALWAYS, argued against the legitimacy of the numbers you derived from the Temple of the Winds quote. Specifically, the microsecond figure, AND THEN, I stated that that timeframe seeming like an hour is hyperbole.
    .
    The time perception was never in question, Mike, so you can continue being a pompous ass about what I’m talking about, but it doesn’t mean you are correct. It’s the meaning of what that actually entails that is the problem.
    .
    ”-i never said it was YOU idiot. just because you use an assumed figure doesn’t mean every one has to abide by that. besides, you didn’t address the actual point i made in bringing this up…….you being a hypocrite in that you want something to be taken into account when you can’t even prove it happened, much less how fast it is, when you wouldn’t accept a similar concept that had a dozen times more evidence.”
    .
    It isn’t an assumed figure, it’s a low end calculation based off of the stepped-leader propagation which I provided evidence for despite the fact that you couldn’t see it. The entire point of this exercise was to show the Rand has reacted to magic similarly. And I can prove that he reacted because it specifically says that lightning flashed and he formed a shield, it’s pretty basic stuff here. Furthermore IT’S A LOWEND CALC! You changing the argument into something else that I’m not arguing, nor even advocating, is idiotic, fallacious, and just plain ignorant.
    .
    ”-yep, you have no reading and comprehension ability at all. this in no way has anything to do with time frame ever mentioned before, just in the process of how the spell is formed, and the quotes state it outright that it is instantly done with the thought.”
    .
    So, are you or are you not, arguing the idea that Richard holds a speed advantage here because of that idea?
    .
    -the quotes state it outright. the effects are instant with the thought.
    .
    The effects are not “instant” they still take an unquantified amount of time, and “fast as thought” in no way indicates the timeframe either.
    .
    ”-you are assuming that two offensive thinnish attacks are going to strike each other. “assuming” is the key word here.”
    .
    I’m actually not assuming anything, if they do touch Balefire wins, if they don’t touch Balefire REALLY wins. It’s an academic argument that has no bearing on anything here Mike.
    .
    this “opinion” of yours doesn’t negate teh FACT that experience is a factor in any fight and having more is better. you seem to be using a lot of argument from belief today to make your “points”.
    .
    It is in no way an opinion to state that experience doesn’t count for much when you are dealing with fighters of this caliber. Both of these fighters have practiced swordplay extensively in the novels, and both have become masters of the blade. When you are dealing with a novice and a master, yes, experience counts more because a master sees many things that a novice does not, and while experience helps in fights it isn’t a factor that will outright win a fight.
    .
    ”no one wants to accept that the thoughts while in an acute perception of time still activate the spells relative to the thought still.”
    .
    That isn’t what is being argued. Nicci tried to move Ann out of the way, and that action was initiated with a thought…….that is an overexaggeration of the argument, but the idea is applied the same way. Nothing indicates that “instant,” “fast as thought,” happen in microseconds OR in a timeframe that is detrimental to Rand.
    .
    That same time perception can be argued to be milliseconds which changes the nature of the timeframe. And nothing in those quotes you provided actually indicates otherwise. You can make them fit that idea, but unequivocally proving the timeframe is altogether different.

  24. Mike March 11, 2012 at 6:20 am -      #1924

    “What the fuck are you talking about? I am sick and tired of you continually telling me what I am thinking when you are clearly wrong about it.”
    -wow………just…….wow…….
    -remember when no one on your side including you would believe that the altered time perception wasn’t hyperbole even when i had dozens of quotes of it happening to multiple people? and only accepted it as an ability when i found a direct statement of nicci saying it was? now try and hold yourself to the same standards here moron. if you don’t accept the opposing sides evidence and bring in less of a similar kind for your own side and expect it to be taken seriously……..nope, not going to happen. especially when nothing else in the series supports this at all and when they can even sense magic to begin with.
    -
    -
    -
    “I have always, AND I MEAN ALWAYS, argued against the legitimacy of the numbers you derived from the Temple of the Winds quote. ”
    -and here is where your comprehension fails in that i was not recently talking about the numbers derived from it except in my last post where i just brought up the subject again(of which i didn’t bring up the numbers and you did not address as of your latest post).
    -
    -
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    “The time perception was never in question, Mike, so you can continue being a pompous ass about what I’m talking about, but it doesn’t mean you are correct. It’s the meaning of what that actually entails that is the problem.”
    -maybe you are that dense that you don’t see how you are using double standards…..
    -
    -
    -
    “It isn’t an assumed figure, it’s a low end calculation based off of the stepped-leader propagation which I provided evidence for despite the fact that you couldn’t see it. ”
    -it’s assumed because it’s not proven. i might as well claim richard can dodge lighting because he has before and then use the same calcs for a low end huh?
    -
    -
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    “The entire point of this exercise was to show the Rand has reacted to magic similarly.”
    -only if it’s proven……and i want a direct quote of someone saying that rand can react to and cast fast enough to block lightning without knowing it is coming before seeing it….holding you to your own standards and all.
    -
    -
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    “And I can prove that he reacted because it specifically says that lightning flashed and he formed a shield, it’s pretty basic stuff here.”
    -yet he also states “fire and something to meet fire and something” in one of the only two quotes you have of this vague circumstance happening, indicating that he felt the magic, which means almost certain foreknowledge. imagine that.
    -
    -
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    “Furthermore IT’S A LOWEND CALC! You changing the argument into something else that I’m not arguing, nor even advocating, is idiotic, fallacious, and just plain ignorant.”
    -only your reading and comprehension failures could explain this.
    -
    -
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    “So, are you or are you not, arguing the idea that Richard holds a speed advantage here because of that idea?”
    -that you have to ask what i am arguing doesn’t bode well for you…
    -you stated that the spell wasn’t proven to be in existence and functional at the end of the spell from your post in the other thread that i quoted in post 1903. i then proceeded to show that the actions of the spell happen directly with the thought. this wasn’t about speed, but can be used in the speed argument as evidence of function.
    -
    -
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    “The effects are not “instant” they still take an unquantified amount of time, and “fast as thought” in no way indicates the timeframe either.”
    -”instant” is quoted, and in the other quotes the spell was stated to do the effects in relation to the thought with time.
    -
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    “I’m actually not assuming anything, if they do touch Balefire wins, if they don’t touch Balefire REALLY wins. It’s an academic argument that has no bearing on anything here Mike.”
    -first, claiming you are right about the interactions between balefire and sub.magic without defeating the opposing sides arguments is just stupid.
    -second, with how fast everything is happening, if they both do or don’t have the super fast thinking/spell casting, the difference in the thought processes would be far to distant for both to get relatavistic speed spells off while not hitting the other person before they cast theirs.
    -third, this topic started off with someone saying the interaction would come into play here, when even if all of the factors in my second point miraculously happen, both spells are thin line shots and have a very little chance of hitting in the first place.
    -
    -
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    “It is in no way an opinion to state that experience doesn’t count for much when you are dealing with fighters of this caliber.”
    -except the feats of these people clearly show a vast difference in fighting skill……..and this is your opinion again.
    -
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    “Both of these fighters have practiced swordplay extensively in the novels, and both have become masters of the blade.”
    -”master” is a title, just like “god”. just because you have a title in your respective works of fiction doesn’t mean you are even close to equal. just ask a god of war god if you pit him against a marvel god. that’s why i use quotes of abilities and feats and not just my opinion like apparently you do.
    -
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    “When you are dealing with a novice and a master, yes, experience counts more because a master sees many things that a novice does not, and while experience helps in fights it isn’t a factor that will outright win a fight.”
    -oh my fucking god. so you just admitted it’s a factor nice……..and it’s a factor that that can be weighed in richard’s favor. all i need to prove and have been arguing with you, you just admitted you agreed with all along…….fucking waste of time even talking to you.
    -
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    “That isn’t what is being argued. ”
    -this is what would be a major factor in what frothbyte and I were talking about.
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    “Nicci tried to move Ann out of the way, and that action was initiated with a thought”
    -……..what? wouldn’t you like to address the actual point of the quote i provided and not an off topic action in the quote? or do you like not comprehending what others are showing? the only point with the nicci quote was to show the only reason she didn’t cast a spell in time to stop lightning was because she didn’t have the power, not that she couldn’t; if she couldn’t it would be pointless to even mention trying to stop it. even just the concept of having altered perception like that would be useless unless you could act upon what you saw to a point that was at least somewhat in relation to how fast you saw the world.
    -
    -
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    “that is an overexaggeration of the argument, but the idea is applied the same way.”
    -no, that’s not an overexageration, that’s completely off topic from what was being discussed from that quote.

  25. Mike March 11, 2012 at 7:14 am -      #1925

    @lightning
    -your opinion on what should happen holds no merit. not only have you not been involved with this thread, but apparently from your comment on the cartoon network civil war, you have absolutely no idea what is even going on in this thread.
    -
    -a comment more out of ignorance i have not seen.

  26. Mike March 11, 2012 at 7:19 am -      #1926

    woops wrong thread clicked on wrong tab.

  27. frothbyte March 11, 2012 at 7:19 am -      #1927

    @Mike: I actually believe that Rahl is faster than Rand in casting speed. During the start of WOT, Rand needed to touch his source, think of his weave, then make the actual weave. Rahl since the start of SOT has always just casted out of instinct on those few times he was able to control his magic. Of course, Rand later on in his series became so adept at casting that his casting became near instantaneous to his thoughts. I still think Rahl has the slight speed advantage, but not by much. By microseconds at most. It would be like the difference of how fast your right eye can blink vs. the speed of your left eye.
    ————————————————————————So if it does come to a quick draw, it really doesn’t matter if Rahl is faster. they’ll both end up dead. Why? Because they both can cast magic far faster than they can move out of the way. Rahl will just end up dying a microsecond later from Rand. At least that’s if you consider that balefire or Rahl’s +/- lightning is not dodgeable. I however am of the opinion that balefire is dodgeable. After all, all throughout the series the forsaken have been throwing balefire after balefire at Rand and his allies… but they’re still alive and kicking till now. So Rahl with his superior martial skills should be able to dodge it as well given the right conditions. BUT if balefire can be dodged, then so can Rahl’s lightning.
    ————————————————————————–
    So if they end up dodging each other’s first attacks, then this is where Rahl get’s into trouble. While Rahl only has the option to keep shooting his lightning, Rand can resort to other means, like oh say wrapping up Rahl in weaves of air or making the ground errupt from under him or maybe creating a ring of fire around him or other such stuff. As far as I’m concerned, Rahl’s lightning basically cancels out Rand’s balefire as they are both going to be insta kill shots if they hit. But after than, Rahl has very few other options of winnning this fight other than a swordfight. Rand still has a whole load of other magical arsenal.

  28. Mike March 11, 2012 at 7:25 am -      #1928

    “I still think Rahl has the slight speed advantage, but not by much. By microseconds at most. It would be like the difference of how fast your right eye can blink vs. the speed of your left eye.”
    -microseconds is all it would take for one of their reletavistic spells to kill the other. if one gets one off first the other will not have the time to get his off.
    -
    -
    -
    “So Rahl with his superior martial skills should be able to dodge it as well given the right conditions. BUT if balefire can be dodged, then so can Rahl’s lightning.”
    -balefire is a beam that has been proven to be dodgeable and richard is faster than anyone in the wot series with far better reaction speeds. additive and subtractive lightning is sent out as a bolt, but it explodes in about a mile diameter; there is no dodging that for rand.

  29. fallstar thief March 11, 2012 at 4:39 pm -      #1929

    if richard hit rand with sub-lightning and rand hit richard with balefire shouldnt the balefire undo the effects of sub-lightning

  30. ptaine March 11, 2012 at 7:41 pm -      #1930

    ”-remember when no one on your side including you would believe that the altered time perception wasn’t hyperbole even when i had dozens of quotes of it happening to multiple people? and only accepted it as an ability when i found a direct statement of nicci saying it was? now try and hold yourself to the same standards here moron. if you don’t accept the opposing sides evidence and bring in less of a similar kind for your own side and expect it to be taken seriously……..nope, not going to happen. especially when nothing else in the series supports this at all and when they can even sense magic to begin with.”
    .
    Here is your biggest problem, Mike, I will tell you AGAIN, and maybe this time it will get through your thick fucking skull, I NEVER DISAGREED WITH THE TIME PERCEPTION, EVER. You want to continually lump me into something I was never a part of. AND just to actually show you this is from Post 1100 in this thread. Now realize this is just a quote and I don’t actually need you to respond to it, it’s just to show you how much of an idiot you are being with your continued obstinate behavior here
    .
    ”Speaking of which…since you keep bringing up that BS with Nadine, the first issue with this particular argument is that you are taking a very specific incident, and applying it to the whole entirety of the series in a way that is speculation. Why you ask?? Well pretty much because Richard has never shown the ability to do what you claim he can do. This incident happened in the fourth book of the series, which I might add only included making an air shield and catching an arrow……not perceiving time to the point that you have made him able too. If this was something that was within Richards abilities then it should’ve come up at some point after, which if I am not mistaken he never one time attacked anyone in the manner that you are trying to speculate him being able to from this quote did he?
    .
    Not only that this specific incident is in regards to a defensive ability…..the making of a shield that slows down an arrow so he can catch it. So while he can slow down an arrow and catch it….that doesn’t mean that he could attack in the same way. Even if he could attack in the time frame (it does seem likely) this was only ONE spell done in this timeframe, not the amount that you are suggesting. Have his perception of time slowed so much, so such a small amount of time is an hour to him, and therefore he can attack at will thousands of times before Rand even realizes he is dead? That’s just silly, and isn’t substantiated by the rest of the quote.
    .
    On top of both of those points, the most ludicrous part of your argument is the fact that you are taking a statement that was meant to be part of the story telling rather than a literal translation of an ability of Richards, and are taking it so literal that you are saying that Richard could cast a crazy amount of attacks in the space it took him to cast one spell and catch an arrow because it seemed like a long time to him. That is just stupid. If this was truly an ability that he possessed he could’ve just taken the entire Imperial Order on by himself, and saved Goodkind from writing a few more books (this is complete sarcasm by the way). And the bottom line with this is that even if you mathematically figured out something it doesn’t mean that you are right in your interpretation of events here again.
    .
    I seem to remember you having a conversation with Zazax on the cloud thread about something similar in terms of storytelling. Goodkind could have written that particular passage by saying, Richard sensed something, he made the air thicker, and caught the arrow. Not particularly good storytelling……..but if you immerse the reader in the action, and tell the story in the way Goodkind did it makes for a far better read (I think so anyway). It doesn’t mean that Richard has this incredible ability that you claim he has at his disposal though. This quote only proves that he can make an air shield and catch an arrow…..that is all.
    .
    Please spare me your rebuttals to this as well…..just because it says time was his doesn’t mean that time actually was his. Just because it says it was an hour to him doesn’t mean it was literally an hour. Just because it says Nadine’s blink took forever doesn’t mean that Richard actually had FOREVER to react. Furthermore it does not mean he had any control over his perception of time. All of this is to enhance the storytelling, and actually just points to the fact the Richards perception of the event was slowed down, that doesn’t in any way mean he can do things to the scale that you are suggesting….it didn’t say that he moved normally while everyone else was a statue…..it says his hand stretched out sure, but that doesn’t suggest any mastery over time. It certainly doesn’t suggest he could cast thousands of spells in this timeframe either….especially considering he was just as much a slave to normal physics and time as everyone else in this quote. Except for the only thing that he actually did do, which was slow down the arrow by making the air thicker to catch it….speaking of which, where exactly in your calculations did you take into account the friction of the air shield slowing the arrow down? How exactly would you quantify that? How much of this is Richard’s reaction to the bolt, and how much is his ability to slow the arrow down with his air shield?…….Do you see how you are again speculating something to be fact when all you can really say from this quote is Richard can create an air shield and catch an arrow?”

    .
    My position has not changed much from this, there are tweaks here and there throughout the argument on this, BUT not once did I EVER disagree with the time perception, what I did disagree with, however, is the degree which comes directly from you .7 millisecond calculation. There is a big difference in meaning, and comprehension of how I was applying my argument.
    .
    If you are going to continue and claim that I argued with the time perception and didn’t believe that it happens until you posted the Nicci quote, you’re wrong, plain and simple. So Fuck off, and pull your head out of your ass.
    .
    ”-only if it’s proven……and i want a direct quote of someone saying that rand can react to and cast fast enough to block lightning without knowing it is coming before seeing it….holding you to your own standards and all.”
    .
    You really are not getting the context of the argument. You supplied a claim that said Richard could kill Rand before he could react because of your fallacious reasoning. I have argued against your fallacious reasoning on one front, AND supplied evidence of Rand doing similar feats with similar assumptions in place (Distance, what is being reacted to, etc). The entire point being that your claim fails on two fronts, and Burden of Proof is on you to then support your claim in totality. It isn’t on me to absolutely prove anything because I am not making a positive claim, I am arguing against the legitimacy of yours. Big difference in context.
    .
    ”-oh my fucking god. so you just admitted it’s a factor nice……..and it’s a factor that that can be weighed in richard’s favor. all i need to prove and have been arguing with you, you just admitted you agreed with all along…….fucking waste of time even talking to you.”
    .
    Dude you really are a moron. I NEVER SAID IT WASN’T A FACTOR! You really need to actually read what the fuck I am saying because a majority of our arguments stem from you not understanding the context of my argument. Kind of ironic when you think about it. At any rate though, my argument is that, yes, it’s a factor, BUT NOT AS BIG OF A FACTOR AS YOU ARE CLAIMING! There is a big difference in what you are saying and what I am saying here in terms of context. Pay attention and figure it out.
    .
    ”-……..what? wouldn’t you like to address the actual point of the quote i provided and not an off topic action in the quote? or do you like not comprehending what others are showing? the only point with the nicci quote was to show the only reason she didn’t cast a spell in time to stop lightning was because she didn’t have the power, not that she couldn’t; if she couldn’t it would be pointless to even mention trying to stop it. even just the concept of having altered perception like that would be useless unless you could act upon what you saw to a point that was at least somewhat in relation to how fast you saw the world.”
    .
    I was addressing it, you however continually misunderstand what I am saying. I really don’t know why, and at this point I’m not going to explain myself again. READ. UNDERSTAND. AND THEN REPLY! If your response is still similar then you are missing the point.

  31. ptaine March 12, 2012 at 8:16 am -      #1931

    And since I forgot this…
    .
    -yet he also states “fire and something to meet fire and something” in one of the only two quotes you have of this vague circumstance happening, indicating that he felt the magic, which means almost certain foreknowledge. imagine that.
    .
    And you do realize if you are correct it lowers the 2.4 millisecond figure right? He saw the flash of lightning, and then felt it according to you, even though it’s entirely possible that he instinctually threw magic up to block lightning instead of feeling the weave?
    .
    Now let’s say he felt the specific weave beforehand since that is undoubtedly what you are arguing, even though there is nothing to substantiate your argument in either the quote or other evidence that has been provided before. This action take fractions of a second, forming a weave. So I will arbitrarily pick half a second. So if Rand feels the weave, sees the lightning and then reacts that takes 502.4 milliseconds
    .
    Now, in post 1626, I provided these numbers for Richard in the Temple of the Winds quote: ”Essentially, if we assume the guy was standing 30 yards away from Nadine, the flight time of the bolt, using 250 fps for modern crossbows and 140 fps for medieval, could be anywhere from 360 milliseconds – 643 milliseconds” Which also includes the number you derived at 40 yards, AND this number for Rand.
    .
    And Furthermore in regards to both fighters speeds off the given quotes from post 1611: ”The point I am making here is that we have to take into account every possible variable when we are potentially dealing with milliseconds of reaction time/casting time. AND I will stick to my original point in that neither fighter holds an advantage in regards to reaction/ casting”
    .
    Again, I will reiterate the fact that I understand what is being assumed in both cases here, Rand’s lightning and Richard’s bolt, but you have never acknowledged the fact that you are assuming quite a bit to make your claim. As I stated previously in my last post you have Burden of Proof to actually substantiate your claim because of those assumptions.

  32. Aelfinn March 16, 2012 at 8:24 pm -      #1932

    “-balefire is a beam that has been proven to be dodgeable”
    -
    You know, it has only been dodged when people who could feel the weaving did something like duck. And they were not being aimed at, by the way. Whenever balefire has been dodged, the shooter could not see the target, or the ter’angreal which produced it was very wild and inaccurate.
    -
    “additive and subtractive lightning is sent out as a bolt, but it explodes in about a mile diameter; there is no dodging that for rand.”
    -
    Rand could just make a shield, or he could just melt all the land around Richard. Before he was fully-powered and at his maximum range (albeit with an angreal), he was melting hills.
    -
    “additive and subtractive lightning is sent out as a bolt,”
    -
    You know, this also counters your “sub. magic is a void” argument, but that debate is going on at WoT vs. SoT.

  33. fallstar thief March 16, 2012 at 8:26 pm -      #1933

    i will ask again
    “if richard hit rand with sub-lightning and rand hit richard with balefire shouldnt the balefire undo the effects of sub-lightning?”

  34. StealthRanger March 16, 2012 at 8:27 pm -      #1934

    Since it erases stuffs from existence, possibly

  35. ptaine March 16, 2012 at 9:10 pm -      #1935

    i will ask again “if richard hit rand with sub-lightning and rand hit richard with balefire shouldnt the balefire undo the effects of sub-lightning?”
    .
    Short answer, yes.
    .
    Long answer, Mike has argued that Subtractive Magic will send Rand to the Underworld and he would not be able to return passed the veil. So according to him, no.

  36. CIDE March 16, 2012 at 9:19 pm -      #1936

    It doesn’t work that way though. Balefire would mean that Rand never went past the veil in the first place so there is no “dragging him back”.

  37. ptaine March 16, 2012 at 9:40 pm -      #1937

    But, it’s instant CIDE so you aren’t taking all of the factors into account….
    .
    .
    .
    .
    *crickets chirping*
    .
    .
    .
    I guess it’s not funny anymore.

  38. CIDE March 16, 2012 at 10:01 pm -      #1938

    I’m going to respond seriously even though you didn’t.
    -
    Doesn’t matter how fast something happens if it’s completely undone. As in it never happened. So there is no “pulling Rand back” because he never went there in the first place. It’s the same as someone going back in time and doing something that would have prevented Rand from behind hit by the Sub lightning in the first place.
    -
    And unless there is something explicitly in terms of fights that show Sub lightning overcoming Time Hax then anything said against this is bullshit.

  39. ptaine March 16, 2012 at 10:18 pm -      #1939

    ”Doesn’t matter how fast something happens if it’s completely undone. As in it never happened. So there is no “pulling Rand back” because he never went there in the first place. It’s the same as someone going back in time and doing something that would have prevented Rand from behind hit by the Sub lightning in the first place.”
    .
    And that is such a simplistic concept, with actual proof behind it, that it’s extremely baffling that one would argue against it in the vein I just did (in terms of the joke that is). It doesn’t make any sense even with the extraneous information that has been provided, because:
    .
    ”And unless there is something explicitly in terms of fights that show Sub lightning overcoming Time Hax then anything said against this is bullshit.”
    .
    True to form CIDE you present the crux of the argument. No valid evidence has been provided explicitly stating Subtractive Magic overcomes anything time related. Just an opinion of what the dimension of time not existing in the Underworld means in that regard, and that, for all intents and purposes, is bullshit since it is nothing beyond an opinion.

  40. fallstar thief March 16, 2012 at 10:23 pm -      #1940

    it dosnt matter if time exists in the underworld if richard never sent rand there in the first place

  41. CIDE March 16, 2012 at 10:30 pm -      #1941

    @Ptaine:
    The same type of guy that doesn’t understand that Sub Magic is a simple teleportation spell. The only difference is it’s one-way and you can’t pick the destination. Otherwise it fits in every other way.
    -
    It’s Ctrl A+Cut+Paste Vs Ctrl A+Ctrl Z.

  42. Aelfinn March 16, 2012 at 10:41 pm -      #1942

    “it dosnt matter if time exists in the underworld if richard never sent rand there in the first place”
    -
    Trust us, we know. There is just one person in particular who doesn’t get it.

  43. ptaine March 16, 2012 at 10:47 pm -      #1943

    @fallstar thief
    ”it dosnt matter if time exists in the underworld if richard never sent rand there in the first place”
    .
    See therein lies the problem, it comes down to an interpretation of what time having no meaning in the Underworld means. I say that the dimension of time exists there, but in an infinite setting it becomes meaningless. But Mike insists that a before and after in terms of a sequence of events in relation to the World of Life doesn’t exist because of that same premise……..or that it can’t exactly be proven (despite a direct correlation of events) one way or the other which is a complete unsubstantiated opinion.
    .
    The thing is, Rand was sent there, BUT, because of Balefire’s property of erasing what a particular thread in the weave did (in this case Richard) it never happened because that whole sequence of events never happened as it was erased from existence. Because of how it’s worded, the opinion can be advanced of how that affects the interaction, but that doesn’t lend any validity to that stance. And, as you say Rand was never technically sent to the Underworld to begin with.
    .
    @CIDE
    ”The same type of guy that doesn’t understand that Sub Magic is a simple teleportation spell. The only difference is it’s one-way and you can’t pick the destination. Otherwise it fits in every other way. It’s Ctrl A+Cut+Paste Vs Ctrl A+Ctrl Z”
    .
    And then that guy further convoluting that interaction into the difference between existence and nonexistence, despite that very same analogy…

  44. Mike March 16, 2012 at 10:52 pm -      #1944

    wow.
    -
    -(clears throat)
    -
    -balefire burns back the thread of what it hits, therefore erasing what it did in the pattern.
    -the underworld where sub.magic sends things is completely outside of reality(pattern).
    -balefire cannot change what sub.magic does.
    -
    -@ptaine
    -to put it in another manner that you do accept……
    -just as SG can jump realities and not be affected by the time line they were originally from, things erased with sub.magic that go to the underworld cannot be changed by something that only changes what is a part of the original reality.
    -
    -its very simple and doesn’t even get into the whole “time exists or not” aspect.

  45. Mike March 16, 2012 at 10:58 pm -      #1945

    this also is only relevant in this fight if both of them somehow get off both of these attacks without either attack hitting and killing the other first, and by the speed of these attacks that chance is 1 in a billion.

  46. Aelfinn March 16, 2012 at 11:03 pm -      #1946

    “-balefire burns back the thread of what it hits, therefore erasing what it did in the pattern.
    -the underworld where sub.magic sends things is completely outside of reality(pattern).
    -balefire cannot change what sub.magic does.”
    -
    But Richard would never have used the sub. magic in the first place. Because it erases back in time. You know, this time-rewrite issue is eerily similar to the Xeelee vs. SG issue. Whatever.
    -
    “this also is only relevant in this fight if both of them somehow get off both of these attacks without either attack hitting and killing the other first, and by the speed of these attacks that chance is 1 in a billion.”
    -
    Godfuckingdamnit

  47. Mike March 16, 2012 at 11:09 pm -      #1947

    “But Richard would never have used the sub. magic in the first place. Because it erases back in time. You know, this time-rewrite issue is eerily similar to the Xeelee vs. SG issue. Whatever.”
    -no, it’s completely different than the still argued points in that debate. in this one i am showing how being outside of the pattern renders balefire useless in that manner since it only affects the pattern, in the SG ve Xeelee debate the xeelee side has already accepted that being outside of the time changing effects range is doable by leaving the reality, it’s just that the xeelee don’t think that SG will be able to get to the point in time to leave. in this case the action happens, being sub.magic’d first, then balefire tries to erase what it did. it’s kinda funny, you guys accept it there but not here……

  48. Aelfinn March 16, 2012 at 11:25 pm -      #1948

    I’m talking about a time rewrite. And Richard would never have used sub. magic. That is the definition of a time rewrite, which balefire does.

  49. Commander Cross March 16, 2012 at 11:28 pm -      #1949

    @Aelfinn

    At this point, would it be better if Rahl had to fight the Jack of Blades?

  50. Mike March 16, 2012 at 11:29 pm -      #1950

    “I’m talking about a time rewrite. And Richard would never have used sub. magic. That is the definition of a time rewrite, which balefire does.”
    -balefire does not destroy the soul, sub.magic takes the soul; there is no way for rand’s soul to get back.
    -
    -
    -balefire erases the pattern of an object to cancel out it’s actions in the past, everything that is rand, physical and spiritual would be outside of the pattern and therefore outside of balefire’s ability to affect. so in the 1 out of a billion chance that they both get their shots off before each shot hits the other, and then both shots hit the one they were aimed at……both would be dead and gone from reality.

  51. Aelfinn March 16, 2012 at 11:34 pm -      #1951

    “-balefire does not destroy the soul, sub.magic takes the soul; there is no way for rand’s soul to get back.”
    -
    But he wouldn’t have gone there in the first place. BECAUSE HE WAS ERASED BEFORE HE FIRED IT. This is getting nowhere, anyway, let’s drop it. It’s an unlikely event, anyway, what with Rand’s shown ability to send at least dozens of weaves at once, while Richard might get one off fast. Maybe. Under your interpretation. Kinda.
    -
    “At this point, would it be better if Rahl had to fight the Jack of Blades?”
    -
    I have literally no idea who the Jack of Blades is.

  52. Commander Cross March 16, 2012 at 11:36 pm -      #1952

    fable.wikia.com/wiki/Jack_of_Blades

    This is the guy I meant. T_T’
    Maybe it’ll help end the endless waves of bickering I feel is going on?

  53. fallstar thief March 16, 2012 at 11:39 pm -      #1953

    imo rahl beats jack despite jack being a better character

  54. Commander Cross March 16, 2012 at 11:42 pm -      #1954

    @Squire

    So quickly via Power-Blitzing? D:
    Aww…I was hoping for an epic fight where Rahl might wind up half-way dead in the process after a hard-fought battle, at the very least. T_T

  55. Aelfinn March 16, 2012 at 11:43 pm -      #1955

    Whatever I have said about Richard, he’s close to Rand levels from what I’ve seen. And that means very little can beat him.

  56. Commander Cross March 16, 2012 at 11:47 pm -      #1956

    @Aelfinn

    BLAST IT!!! T_T

  57. Mike March 16, 2012 at 11:48 pm -      #1957

    because they cast with thought, it takes beyond human reaction times and attacks to go with it to be able to beat them to say the least.

  58. Aelfinn March 16, 2012 at 11:50 pm -      #1958

    Not to mention that they have a couple of attacks that are high-tier even in comparison to sci-fi. It is tough going to find a match fitting for them. I guess that is why this fight has so many comments.

  59. StealthRanger March 16, 2012 at 11:52 pm -      #1959

    Well Rahl is a Class 100+, FTL universe buster after all….

  60. Commander Cross March 16, 2012 at 11:53 pm -      #1960

    @Aelfinn

    You mean…Rahl’s invincible? T_T
    Why not try Richard Rahl vs Bass.Exe?

  61. Aelfinn March 16, 2012 at 11:56 pm -      #1961

    “Well Rahl is a Class 100+, FTL universe buster after all….”
    -
    Hey, we’re having a bit of a moment right now.
    -
    “You mean…Rahl’s invincible? T_T”
    -
    Definitely not, but it’s hard to find a good fight for either one because if you get someone close to their level, they’ll either stomp or be stomped. The only time they’ll be stomped is with some really-high tier stuff, though, or things with INCREDIBLE speeds.

  62. Commander Cross March 16, 2012 at 11:58 pm -      #1962

    @Aelfinn

    Which is why I’m thinking Rahl vs Bass.Exe.
    Also any luck with Dresden, Springfield and Skywalker at their most powerful vs Rand?

  63. Aelfinn March 16, 2012 at 11:59 pm -      #1963

    I don’t know who Bass.exe is. And that three-person fight vs. Rand, well, I suggested it, but it obviously hasn’t been posted. Did you suggest it, too?

  64. Commander Cross March 17, 2012 at 12:03 am -      #1964

    @Aelfinn

    Apparently not, because I’ve yet to recall the badass imagery for all 3 people vs Rand, and I actually LIKE Rand, blast it!!!

    Bass.Exe’s the guy whom Reager1 is vouching for, in fact, and he claims that Bass.exe’s far superior to Richard Rahl in every single way possible, while I insisted that 2 people I’d otherwise back would blitz Bass easily.

  65. Aelfinn March 17, 2012 at 12:05 am -      #1965

    I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I don’t want Mike to go against DReager1 like that. If anything, it would be an unworthy Top Thread spot.

  66. fallstar thief March 17, 2012 at 12:05 am -      #1966

    nicol bolas >richard rahl
    yuki nagoto >>>> richard rahl
    Seirei No Hebi Sakai Yuji > richard rahl

  67. Aelfinn March 17, 2012 at 12:08 am -      #1967

    Are those super-fast anime characters? They kinda look like it.

  68. Commander Cross March 17, 2012 at 12:08 am -      #1968

    @Aelfinn

    Personally I’d vouch for Hawke vs Rahl if things were different(granted either Dresden or the .hack-verse dude who’s not currently on my current gravatar has to inflict a SUCCESSFUL beating on the former, 1st, before I can consider that idea!) but as it is, I’d risk Bass.Exe vs Rahl, at this point.

    @Squire

    Most of these guys, Rand has a shot in Tartarus to get rid of as long as he fights smarter than normal, right?

  69. StealthRanger March 17, 2012 at 12:09 am -      #1969

    Dark Schneider>Richard Rahl
    Lord of Nightmares>Richard Rahl
    Sanit Seiya Hades>Richard Rahl
    Lucifer Morningstar>Richard Rahl
    Krona>Richard Rahl

  70. StealthRanger March 17, 2012 at 12:10 am -      #1970

    Oh and Dormammu>Richard Rahl

  71. fallstar thief March 17, 2012 at 12:12 am -      #1971

    @Aelfinn
    “Are those super-fast anime characters? They kinda look like it.”
    the second is
    #1)nicol bolas – extremly powerful planeswalker from magic the gathering
    #2)yuki nagoto- ftl reality/time/data/probobility warper
    #3)yuuji- time stop nuff said

  72. Commander Cross March 17, 2012 at 12:13 am -      #1972

    Megas > Richard Rahl?

  73. Aelfinn March 17, 2012 at 12:14 am -      #1973

    Then I don’t know about nicol bolas, unless their power is super-high with incredible range, Richard and Rand have a shot with either sub. magic or balefire.

  74. Commander Cross March 17, 2012 at 12:15 am -      #1974

    @Aelfinn

    5 Bucks says Rand does, Rahl doesn’t.

  75. Aelfinn March 17, 2012 at 12:17 am -      #1975

    I would take that bet, but then the fight would start again. It’s… kinda peaceful right now. We know it’s fake, but we can pretend.

  76. Commander Cross March 17, 2012 at 12:18 am -      #1976

    @Aelfinn

    Fair enough.
    I’ll try to save those wagers for later on, right now you gotta tell me where the Tartarus can I find those badass images you found for Rand and the 3 people we agreed to send him against, alright?

  77. Aelfinn March 17, 2012 at 12:19 am -      #1977

    I just google-imaged each one, and picked a suitable-looking one for each. It wasn’t too difficult.

  78. Commander Cross March 17, 2012 at 12:21 am -      #1978

    @Aelfinn

    Still seriously speaking, where are the 3 images you used against Rand?

  79. Aelfinn March 17, 2012 at 12:23 am -      #1979

    I’m pretty sure the links are in the WoT vs. SoT thread. If they’re not on the current page, they’re on the last one.

  80. Aelfinn March 17, 2012 at 12:24 am -      #1980

    Ignore that. I was thinking of something else. I never got pics for them.

  81. fallstar thief March 17, 2012 at 12:25 am -      #1981

    Arcueid brunstud drops the moon on rahl

  82. Commander Cross March 17, 2012 at 12:27 am -      #1982

    @Aelfinn

    WHY THE TARTARUS DID YOU FORGET TO BRING THEIR IMAGES IN???? :cry: (tries to hide the urges to cry rivers of tears)

  83. Aelfinn March 17, 2012 at 12:27 am -      #1983

    Like I said, you gotta be pretty high tier to beat one of these two guys.

  84. Aelfinn March 17, 2012 at 12:28 am -      #1984

    I’m sorry I failed you, Commander. Tell you what. Tomorrow we should both suggest the fight with pictures for each one.

  85. Commander Cross March 17, 2012 at 12:30 am -      #1985

    @Aelfinn

    I’m holding you to your word, alright?
    Otherwise you need to get to factpiletopia.com and be ready to assist me in setting up a vs match between Ginny and Atoli, so we can make DANG SURE it’ll be worthwhile together, alright?

  86. Aelfinn March 17, 2012 at 12:32 am -      #1986

    I will do my very best to help suggest the fight tomorrow. Aelfinn’s honor.

  87. Commander Cross March 17, 2012 at 12:33 am -      #1987

    @Aelfinn

    Just your word as a factpiler’s enough, you got mine as a fan of the Potter-world and Camp Half-Blood(plus the .hack universe!) and as a Leader of the Knighthood(not overall leader though, current incarnation rules dictated this much!) that I’ll do my best to be there, alright?

  88. Mike March 17, 2012 at 12:34 am -      #1988

    I’d actually love to see different characters other than rahl from the sword of truth series. maybe a chase and rachael vs another duo. ulic and egan vs another duo. zedd vs another magic user(he doesn’t have sub.magic or strange requirements to use his power like richard or kahlan) and not against someone without feats that has an unquantifiable unusable aspect to him(gandalf was a previous fight of his). gratch vs another monster. daharan first file or special forces vs another medival military group. siege on people’s palace from a tough force(not like siege on wizard’s keep vs LoTR orcs).
    -
    -
    @stealth
    -do you even realize that you are doing what chuck does with dante only the opposite? don’t be like them. don’t make this thread even start to look like the cartoon network civil war. and no one ever said in seriousness, only in trying to make fun of me, that richard is class 100+, FTL or a universe buster without the appropriate powers he doesn’t currently have(because he literally had a power that was said to be able to do this, and he did the opposite and made a univiverse).

  89. Commander Cross March 17, 2012 at 12:51 am -      #1989

    This is not good. T_T

  90. Soldier's Shadow March 17, 2012 at 1:17 am -      #1990

    Why don’t people use Darken Rahl more? He seemed cool, at least in the show he did.

    ===

    Also, enough with the Rahl trolling people. It’s fairly annoying, I don’t even like SoT or Rahl but it’s really gotten as old like suggesting Master Chief armorless with a knife vs Galactus.

  91. ptaine March 17, 2012 at 1:20 am -      #1991

    -to put it in another manner that you do accept……
    -just as SG can jump realities and not be affected by the time line they were originally from, things erased with sub.magic that go to the underworld cannot be changed by something that only changes what is a part of the original reality.

    .
    So you are going to continue and put words in my mouth? No, I don’t accept that reason, and the logic behind that is causality.
    .
    There is a very specific sequence of events that is happening, which is being erased by the time aspect of Balefire. I have already stated, and which you have not provided an argument beyond saying I don’t comprehend something, something to the effect of that particular reality no existing because it is a direct branch off the main timeline.
    .
    But, in SoT, in terms of events that happen between the World of Life and the Underworld there is a direct casual link in terms of the timeline so your point is completely and utterly wrong.

  92. ptaine March 17, 2012 at 1:23 am -      #1992

    ”(because he literally had a power that was said to be able to do this, and he did the opposite and made a univiverse).”
    .
    Not that I necessarily want to get into this again, BUT there is equal probability of it being a world, as in a planet. Not a Universe.

  93. Mike March 17, 2012 at 1:37 am -      #1993

    @soldier’s shadow
    -Darken Rahl in the books was a very evil character, but not many feats for him unless you take others feats as his since he is supposed to know more than them but it is never shown.
    -
    -
    -
    @ptaine
    “So you are going to continue and put words in my mouth? No, I don’t accept that reason, and the logic behind that is causality.”
    -causality doesn’t reach to other timelines by it’s very nature of working by a timeline.
    -
    -
    -
    “There is a very specific sequence of events that is happening, which is being erased by the time aspect of Balefire. I have already stated, and which you have not provided an argument beyond saying I don’t comprehend something, something to the effect of that particular reality no existing because it is a direct branch off the main timeline.”
    -you are trying to say that alternate realities will go away if you erase the reality that it spawned from before the choice that branched off the reality. this does not make sense since it is it’s own separate reality with it’s own timeline at that point.
    -
    -
    -
    “But, in SoT, in terms of events that happen between the World of Life and the Underworld there is a direct casual link in terms of the timeline so your point is completely and utterly wrong.”
    -the things/people that go to the underworld only realize time if they bring the perception of them with them. and that is not always even true, when entering the slyph they can’t tell how long they were in the underworld and have to check the stars/moon/sun.
    -this in no way means that balefire can affect something in an area that is specifically out of it’s effects parameters.
    -the simple undeniable fact is that balefire affects the threads in the pattern, and the underworld is not part of the pattern by it’s very definition of what it is.
    -
    -
    -
    “Not that I necessarily want to get into this again, BUT there is equal probability of it being a world, as in a planet. Not a Universe.”
    -there is NO probability of it unless you think that when they say “world” and are talking about their entire universe, that their entire universe is a world(and they have shown stars/sun/moon).
    -richard created a copy of their “world” and put it on the other side of their infinite afterlife of nothing, and that “world” has a complete sky of stars exactly like their own and is supposed to be the real life earth. so yes, he absolutely created another universe with the power of orden.

  94. ptaine March 17, 2012 at 5:50 am -      #1994

    ”-the things/people that go to the underworld only realize time if they bring the perception of them with them. and that is not always even true, when entering the slyph they can’t tell how long they were in the underworld and have to check the stars/moon/sun.”
    .
    This is completely irrelevant to the point Mike. Rand doesn’t need to perceive time to be affected by time. Richard doesn’t need to perceive time to be affected by time. HIS thread is being erased from the pattern, and everything HE did is erased.
    .
    ”-the simple undeniable fact is that balefire affects the threads in the pattern, and the underworld is not part of the pattern by it’s very definition of what it is.”
    .
    And the simple undeniable fact is, Balefire is erasing Richard so, AGAIN, this point is irrelevant.
    .
    ”-there is NO probability of it unless you think that when they say “world” and are talking about their entire universe, that their entire universe is a world(and they have shown stars/sun/moon).”
    .
    Of course there is a possibility, but this again goes to your stubbornness in admitting you can be fallible in your interpretation. When they say “world” they have no concept of the scope of what that entails. Because as I said before they also say New WORLD and Old WORLD, without it having to mean universe but this again goes into the way its described.
    .
    ”-richard created a copy of their “world” and put it on the other side of their infinite afterlife of nothing, and that “world” has a complete sky of stars exactly like their own and is supposed to be the real life earth. so yes, he absolutely created another universe with the power of orden.”
    .
    Or, he bent existence which is the Universe and placed a copy of his world there, which is the planet or the real life Earth. Nothing beyond you stating worlds means dimensions even hints at anything less.
    .
    He ABSOLUTELY created a WORLD and what that entails is speculative and not in any way able to be proven ABSOLUTELY.

  95. Commander Cross March 17, 2012 at 3:15 pm -      #1995

    @Aelfinn

    Your word?

  96. Mike March 17, 2012 at 4:49 pm -      #1996

    “This is completely irrelevant to the point Mike.”
    -only brought it up because you did, and yes it is irrelevant to the point, thanks for pointing out YOUR point is irrelevant.
    -
    -
    -
    “And the simple undeniable fact is, Balefire is erasing Richard so, AGAIN, this point is irrelevant.”
    -yes…..and you forget that burning richard’s thread only affects things in the pattern……which the underworld isn’t…….which is where Rand will be in this scenario.
    -
    -
    -
    “Of course there is a possibility, but this again goes to your stubbornness in admitting you can be fallible in your interpretation. When they say “world” they have no concept of the scope of what that entails. Because as I said before they also say New WORLD and Old WORLD, without it having to mean universe but this again goes into the way its described.”
    -
    -you really are just an idiot aren’t you.
    -just the simple fact that you have to travel through an infinite realm of nothingness to get to the second “world”, and you pop up there out of nothing, and that second world has it’s own stars and all means it is in no way the same universe as the original and is a whole universe itself.
    -
    -
    -
    “He ABSOLUTELY created a WORLD and what that entails is speculative and not in any way able to be proven ABSOLUTELY.”
    -your ability to understand things has always been what has held you back on this site. you don”t see it, but it’s very obvious.

  97. ptaine March 17, 2012 at 5:11 pm -      #1997

    ”-only brought it up because you did, and yes it is irrelevant to the point, thanks for pointing out YOUR point is irrelevant”
    .
    Your idiocy in not understanding, HOW I brought it up, and your further argument, which IS completely irrelevant, has no bearing on MY point being irrelevant. But continue to present a Red Herring which has absolutely nothing to do with anything. But let’s go to the next point shall we since THAT actually is the argument yes?
    .
    ”-yes…..and you forget that burning richard’s thread only affects things in the pattern……which the underworld isn’t…….which is where Rand will be in this scenario.”
    .
    Are you really arguing this? I mean, you don’t seem to fathom that where Rand ends up is irrelevant, IT’S ERASING RICHARD’S THREAD, WHICH IS IN THE WORLD OF LIFE! Rand’s thread still exists, and Richard’s thread, and every action he ever did ceases to exist.
    .
    Do I actually have to spell this out for you? It isn’t complicated.
    .
    ”-just the simple fact that you have to travel through an infinite realm of nothingness to get to the second “world”, and you pop up there out of nothing, and that second world has it’s own stars and all means it is in no way the same universe as the original and is a whole universe itself.”
    .
    And you are just full of fallacious arguments aren’t you? That is such a blatant non-sequiter it really baffles me how you can state this and think it proves anything.
    .
    In Babylon 5 ships travel through Hyperspace, another dimension, and when they come out THEY RETURN TO THE SAME UNIVERSE! And stars existing somehow means that it’s a different Universe? Really?!Because I don’t know how they could be stars on the other end of it. You are trying to derive a conclusion from evidence that in no way actually proves that stance.
    .
    ”-your ability to understand things has always been what has held you back on this site. you don”t see it, but it’s very obvious”
    .
    Your problem here is that I understand all too well. Just because your trolling me at this point doesn’t change anything. (seriously grow up a little bit and stop putting biased unbacked assertions). You have never proven that I don’t understand anything you have said one time, you ALWAYS convolute what I am saying (Strawman Fallacy) and argue against that. Refer to the post you have yet to respond to on this page for that evidence.

  98. Mike March 17, 2012 at 5:22 pm -      #1998

    “Are you really arguing this? I mean, you don’t seem to fathom that where Rand ends up is irrelevant, IT’S ERASING RICHARD’S THREAD, WHICH IS IN THE WORLD OF LIFE! Rand’s thread still exists, and Richard’s thread, and every action he ever did ceases to exist.”
    -his “thread” is in the underworld, outside of the pattern.
    -
    -
    -
    “Do I actually have to spell this out for you? It isn’t complicated.”
    -not complicated at all, you just don’t seem to realize that when something is outside of something’s effects, that it can’t affect it.
    -
    -
    -
    “And you are just full of fallacious arguments aren’t you? That is such a blatant non-sequiter it really baffles me how you can state this and think it proves anything.
    .
    In Babylon 5 ships travel through Hyperspace, another dimension, and when they come out THEY RETURN TO THE SAME UNIVERSE! And stars existing somehow means that it’s a different Universe? Really?!Because I don’t know how they could be stars on the other end of it. You are trying to derive a conclusion from evidence that in no way actually proves that stance.”
    -for your idiocy to be true, they would have to have been put in a spot in the same universe that has exactly the same sun, moon, and same astrological signs. that’s impossible.
    -fuck man do you even realize that if it is the same universe that they couldn’t use magic anymore? because of chainfire…..
    -
    -
    -
    “Your problem here is that I understand all too well. Just because your trolling me at this point doesn’t change anything. (seriously grow up a little bit and stop putting biased unbacked assertions).”
    -that you see them this way is how i know you don’t/can’t understand what is being talked about. not only are there multiple reasons why it is not possible to be just a world brought up before, but the newer chainfire point proves it in itself also.
    -
    -
    -
    “You have never proven that I don’t understand anything you have said one time, you ALWAYS convolute what I am saying (Strawman Fallacy) and argue against that. Refer to the post you have yet to respond to on this page for that evidence.”
    -have time and time again, it’s not my fault that you are incapable of seeing it, and that’s why i haven’t responded to some of your posts, which is VERY not like me. but i’m getting way to frustrated trying to explain things to you and find other ways to show you that you are wrong when you can’t see it in the first way i’ve shown you. as i said before, why this and wot vs sot will probably never get an award.
    -
    -no more today, i must go out and enjoy St. Patricks Day.

  99. ptaine March 17, 2012 at 6:06 pm -      #1999

    -not complicated at all, you just don’t seem to realize that when something is outside of something’s effects, that it can’t affect it.
    .
    It’s not outside of somethings effects, Mike, and that is why your point is irrelevant. Richard’s actions caused whatever happened to happen. Balefire undoes it. Therefore that cause never happened.
    .
    Now you somehow believe that introducing the concept of being outside the pattern somehow changes that fact? Rand’s friends died and are effectively outside of the pattern, and when he Balefired the cause of their deaths, they came back to life because what cause there death never happened.
    .
    Again, this concept isn’t complicated and your Red Herring argument doesn’t change this fact.
    .
    ”-for your idiocy to be true, they would have to have been put in a spot in the same universe that has exactly the same sun, moon, and same astrological signs. that’s impossible”
    .
    And? The entire problem is that you are asserting that the Sun, Moon, and astrological signs are all the same when you have not provided proof that is the case. Yes, it would make sense given how Richard stated he duplicated the world.
    .
    Just because I understand your opinion, which I ALWAYS DO, does not mean that you have actually supplied valid proof to substantiate that opinion as fact. That is ALWAYS the problem with your claims.
    .
    ”-fuck man do you even realize that if it is the same universe that they couldn’t use magic anymore? because of chainfire…..”
    .
    You are assuming that Chainfire is a Universal affect. It affects his world, but that doesn’t in any way mean that the term world means Universe OR that those effects will translate across the cosmos when there is no connection to the other world. In order for this point to actually have merit you would have to provide evidence beyond your circular reasoning here.
    .
    ”-have time and time again, it’s not my fault that you are incapable of seeing it, and that’s why i haven’t responded to some of your posts, which is VERY not like me. but i’m getting way to frustrated trying to explain things to you and find other ways to show you that you are wrong when you can’t see it in the first way i’ve shown you. as i said before, why this and wot vs sot will probably never get an award.”
    .
    You continually explaining a concept to me, which I already grasp, shouldn’t make you frustrated. If you actually provided proof I wouldn’t argue with you at all. Take this Universe/World/Planet argument, if there was some sort of claim of Universe and World being tied together unequivocally pointing to the fact that Richard created another Universe. That has never been done before though, and Goodkind went out of his way to provide both explanations in Law of Nines. The information is vague all around, and while it can be interpreted as a Universe being created, and I understand how that can be derived, BUT that in no way invalidates the interpretation of a planet being created on the other side of the Universe from the very same evidence.
    .
    This also point to the claim of wanking, YOU always go to the best possible interpretation of any situation, in this case A Universe being created, while NEVER admitting that a lesser interpretation is also valid, the fact that it could just be a Planet.
    .
    Your problem is that I know better, and I know you cannot prove your claim absolutely. THAT’S why you get frustrated because I won’t let you get away with it. Not because of a lack of comprehension on my part, but you are more than welcome to live in the delusional world you’ve created for yourself.

  100. Aelfinn March 17, 2012 at 8:46 pm -      #2000

    I actually kinda agree with Mike on it being a different Universe. I’m not saying he created a whole Universe, but at the very least he copied the world and put it in another Universe.
    -
    “put it on the other side of their infinite afterlife of nothing,”
    -
    This seems to indicate an inter-universal space.
    -
    However! I feel Mike’s analogy of timeline-splitting does not count here. There is obviously a closer connection between the World of Life and the Underworld than between the World of Life and the Law of Nines Universe. Heck, if Mike’s other arguments would be considered, than apparently spirits could just walk right out of the Underworld and into the World of Life. Not that this argument would need to be considered. The balefire would make it so that the sub. magic was never fired in the first place.

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