Suggested many times by many readers…
This is a battle that I knew had been coming for quite some time and couldn’t hold off anymore as I got soo many requests for this fight. Here we have Rand al’Thor from the Wheel of Time series up against Richard Rahl of the Sword of Truth/Legend of the Seeker universe.
For the battle we are using the book version of Rahl.
Rand has a power forged sword (unbreakable) and no power enhancing items. Richard has the Sword of Truth.
The battle takes place in the Aiel Waste.
Every reader of this site knows who I’m gonna take, what say you?
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Hmmmmmmmm, tough one. Now if this where not Rand Al Thor, then my choice would be different. What battlefield are they on?
@Admin
I’ll be honest with you. I’m inclined to take Rand Al’thor’s side because of balefire…
But why not make it a two stage battle. One where it’s swords only and another where they go all out.
What say you?
Also, are they fighting in a desert or a forest?
@Admin
Are we using Richard at his current status at the end of the 11th Book (Confessor), correct? Thanks mate.
- pf
@Pondering Fool – Yes.
@Blood Dancer – Sure, let’s make one fight a sword battle and the second all powers available.
If it’s a forest, I imagine it will rapidly become a desert.
Well, I think that in a straight sword fight Rahl could take it with his Dance of Death or whatever. Also the fact that he can draw from the experience of hundreds, maybe thousands, of warriors will give him the edge.
As for magic, I’d give it to Rand because I have a feeling that Rahl’s magic relies on “need” to work it. Whereas Rand seems to be in full control of his abilities.
That’s what I have grasped from the information provided by others in this site and from skimming through the books.
If I am wrong, in any possible way, feel free to smite me. I am here to learn.
@Blood Dancer
“I am here to learn.”
Sounds familiar……………..
@Rorschach
There’s a difference here. My knowledge on these characters is fairly limited. Unlike you I am no newbie on this site….Don’t forget that I am your senior.
@Blood Dancer
My knowledge is too, but I know enough about Rand Al Thor and I think I saw an episode or two ofthat seeker thing so I know at least something about Richard.
@Rorschach
We’re not using that Legend of The Seeker canon. We’re using Sword of truth canon, Rahl’s book version
@Blood Dancer
I know, but are they close to being same, otherwise I need information also?
@Rorschach
Legend of The seeker literally butchered the Sword of Truth canon. Other than names and central plot almost everything else changed. I also know that the characters’ fighting prowess was toned down ( a lot).
@Rorschach
I hate it when filmmakers do that!
Kind of like the Wachowski Brothers with V for Vendetta, almost completely different script, plot, everything!
That was off-topic, so now what?
Now we wait for the ones with higher authority like AHEM, Mazrim, Matapiojo or Admin himself to say their piece. I have said mine and I believe that I was rather accurate, especially given that my knowledge on them is limited.
You forgot L-W……
Never debated with him on any topic, but I hear he is a respected person on this site
Rancor Trouble.
Ah! I’ve been waiting for this battle for a long while, and now I can finally give my opinions.
In a sword fight, these two are very closely matched. Richard took on a whole group of blademasters, two or three at a time in multiple waves, and slaughtered them all. However, Rand has also held his own against, and disarmed and defeated, multiple blademasters coming at him at once. He finds the best warriors in the land and then competes against all of them at once.
Richard has the Sword of Truth, unbreakable and incredibly sharp, fueled by his anger, but Rand wields a power-wrought sword which can not be broken and is shaprer than any ordinarily forged razor.
Richard has the experience of countless previous Seekers in his head, turning him into the absolute pinacle of skill and deadliness with a sword, but Rand is a blademaster in his own right and training without any such enhancements, and he practices and invents dozens of sword forms in combat.
Richard can draw upon his anger to make his strikes unnaturally fast and powerful, but Rand can fortify himself using the Void to grant him increased pain tolerance, heightened reflexes, and unshakable calm. Think of it like Drizzt Do’Urden’s Hunter aspect, only in a state of emotionless calm instead of controlled fury.
They’re both taller than most men, and described as heavily muscled and very fast for their sizes, and they both can withstand pain that would make a lesser men beg for death.
Rand has the home field advantage, and has spent much more time in, and had fights in, arid environments than Richard has.
In short, it would be a fantastic sword fight to witness, and would probably have a different outcome in every individual fight. For the first match, it could go either way.
Is it just me, or do those pictures make them look identical?
“Is it just me, or do those pictures make them look identical?”
Rand has red hair. Rahl has dark hair. Other than that, though, their faces and clothes do look kind of similar . . .
It’s fitting, I think, as the two have very similar roles within their own stories, and it’s possible that Rahl was based partially on Rand.(The two series have many similarities, and Rand existed four years before Rahl.)
@AHEM
How do you think the White Magic of the Sword of Truth would factor into this? Probably not at all, but who knows.
- pf
By the way, Admin, when you say, “Power-forged sword” do you mean one of the indestructible metal swords that last for thousands of years, like the Heron Mark Sword Rand used to have, or the Power-forged swords of fire that Rand often creates and uses in place of a regular sword? The latter would be more probable in this duel, as Rand doesn’t have the Heron sword anymore but uses the blade of fire as one of his primary weapons.
“How do you think the White Magic of the Sword of Truth would factor into this? Probably not at all, but who knows.”
The White Magic would significantly increase Rahl’s bladery abilities and make the Sword of Truth all the more lethal to the touch, like, “go through Rand like he’s made of butter” lethal, and might just be the edge that Rahl needs to break the near-tie in physical combat.
However, Richard hates using the White Magic because of the immense emotional cost to himself of killing someone that he either loves or forgives entirely, and only ever uses it as a last resort. He is also exceedingly unlikely to use it on someone he does not know, as there is virtually no chance for him to have a strong affection for them or else be aware of everything they’ve done and forgive them utterly for that. Neither will happen, in my opinion, against a man he spontaneously encounters and is forced into a fight against. Every time that Richard has used the Sword of Truth, it’s been against a person that he knew closely, and the two or three times he’s actually killed with it, the victim had committed numerous aggressions against him that he was able to recognize, and thus forgive them for.
The White Magic would be a great help, but it’s impractically unlikely to be a factor at all, even if Richard is forced into desperation. He doesn’t know Rand personally, after all.
Haha. I knew that requesting this every day would end up making it happen. Glad I decided to do so, because this is the one duel I’ve really been looking forward to. First, let me clear this up: Rand does not have any advantage due to balefire. Yes, balefire is a one hit KO, however, Richard has a very similar power when he combines both additive and subtractive magic to make that crazy black lightening. Anything touched by that is instantly vaporized. In terms of combat skill, these characters are nearly even, however, I think that Richard has a bit of an advantage in sword play, while Rand seems to have a bit of an advantage in magic powers.
Richard does use his powers through need, however, I think that he would quickly realize his need through fighting an enemy like Rand.
In terms of magical feats, Rand and Richard have done some fairly nuclear sh*t. Richard destroyed the barrier between the new and old world that it took many War Wizards to create in the first place. Rand, however, cleansed the taint on Saidin, annihilated miles upon miles of the Aiel Waste (which is where this battle takes place), and, at on point, held enough Saidin to completely destroy the planet in one blast of balefire. Unaided, he nearly destroyed the royal castle of Andor, he is one of the only channelers to use balefire without aid, he has managed to capture or kill almost every single forsaken, and he is proficient with all elements.
I’m going to go ahead and say that I think Rand has this. It would be a tough and grueling fight, but when it comes down to it, I think magical usage is what will determine this one. While I think Richard could hold his own for a while, he simply doesn’t have enough knowledge of his own skills. The only advice he ever really had on how to use his magic was a book with blank pages. Rand, on the other hand, has had the mind of one of the most powerful Aes Sedai to ever live dwelling inside of his own mind, teaching him little tricks and things. Rand has been known to bring back weaves that haven’t been seen since the Age of Legends. He has summoned massive lightening storms, leveled mountains, brought water to deserts, created walls of fire, and rediscovered teleportation, just to name a few things. His talent for creating new weaves on the go, even in the heat of battle, is what I think will determine this battle.
By the way, on my own suggestions for this battle, I meant cuendillar heron mark blade, not the blade of saidin that Rand is able to create. Mainly because the saidin blade could possibly cut right through the Sword of Truth.
“First, let me clear this up: Rand does not have any advantage due to balefire. Yes, balefire is a one hit KO, however, Richard has a very similar power when he combines both additive and subtractive magic to make that crazy black lightening. Anything touched by that is instantly vaporized.”
The black lightning is entirely subtractive and does not require additive magic to create and use. Richard does sometimes combine the two to form stronger lightning, but that results in a dualism-styled chain of normal lightning and black lightning together.
Subtractive magic doesn’t vaporize things, by the way. It consumes them and sends them to the Underworld. If they were vaporized, there would be a vapor residue left over from where the solid matter was turned to gas. Subtractive lightning leaves nothing behind.
Anyway, should he choose to use subtractive magic against Rand, Richard will run into a problem; Rand’s magical shields and defenses.
Richard has never really demonstrated any spells that protect his body, save for some air manipulation to slow down or stop uncoming arrows. Rand, however, has covered his body in shields that have stopped powerful magic attacks at point blank range, and woven wards around areas that specifically counteract certain advantages of his enemies, such as killing any Shadowspawn that cross them, or sounding an alarm when an enemy draws near.
Subtractive lightning has penetrated magical shields before, but only of wizards and sorceresses who wielded only the additive. If judged by SoT standards, Rand would be considered to have both additive and subtractive magic, given that he can change and create as welll as destroy.(Such as through Balefire.) It isn’t a sure thing that Richard would be able to hurt Rand at all with his subtractive magic, while Richard has no equivalent defense against balefire.
“By the way, on my own suggestions for this battle, I meant cuendillar heron mark blade, not the blade of saidin that Rand is able to create. Mainly because the saidin blade could possibly cut right through the Sword of Truth.”
Okay, that’s different. Cuendillar would be a nice advantage on its own for Rand, since it can absorb or deflect any attack, even the unstoppable balefire, and would make a nice extra defense against subtractive lightning.
Damn, I didn’t think about that when I suggested it. Personally, Ahem, I don’t think one could say that balefire woud be subtractive. If I had to do a comparison, I’d say that the True Power, the power of Shaitin, is closer to subtractive magic. To say that Balefire could be considered subtractive, would mean that Richard could potentially block balefire with his own subtractive magic. I have to agree with you though; Richard isn’t really known to use any wards or shields, though it is conceivable that he could do so, as his talent with magic relies on his own instinct and need.
I’d say that either character’s best bet against either Balefire or Subtractive lightening would be physical skill, aka, dodging. Balefire and Subtractive lightening have both been dodged numerous times in both series, so it’s certainly not impossible.
I see what you’re saying though, which is that, even though it would be an interesting fight to see, Rand certainly has the upper hand through feats of magical strength. Richard hasn’t done anything near what Rand has done in the heights of his power, and Rand is known to go into battle with a big bang. Quite frankly, he doesn’t f*ck around. While Richard would be trying to charge Rand with the Sword of truth, or trying to build up enough need to use his magic, Rand would simply engulf the entire area in flames.
@Admin, Thank you very, very much for posting this battle. When I found this site many months ago it was because I had just started reading the Sword of Truth series, and I was looking for this very battle. To my dismay, it hadn’t yet been posted on this site, while it had been posted on other, not very good sites. Over the months I have enjoyed many of the duels and other things on this site, but this has always been what I was really looking forward to.
With that said, I will consider writing a short story, much like the one with Wolverine and the Spartan that was on here a couple months back, so long as you would consider posting it. Just give me the word and I’ll start today. I don’t like to toot my own horn, but I am a fairly talented writer, and it would be one hell of an explosive story.
Sorry for the triple post, but I forgot something. AHEM, if I were to decide to write a short story about this duel, would you be able to help me out a little? You are easily as knowledgeable about both universes as I am, and I would be grateful to have your help on such a subject.
Balefire is unblockable, so I doubt it would matter if richard somehow managed to raise a shield. In terms of magic rand takes this fight hands down.
I a swordfight it all comes down to rand’s weapon. If rand uses a physical blade he’s pretty much done for, since he can’t match richard’s supernatural fighting ability. If rand uses a power wrought blade of fire I’d go for him winning, since it’s practicaly a lightsabre and by his own account makes fighting blademasters like fighting children.
Balefire is unblockable is No Limits Fallacy. For example, Subtractive magic sends everything it comes into contact with into the underworld. Balefire makes everything it touches cease to exist. What happens if Subtractive lightening hits Balefire? Probably a paradox that destroys the universe…
I disagree with everything Johnnyquest said because he is a terrible person.
@Johnnyquest, there was a time when two bursts of Balefire touched each other. All it really did was give the two wielders headaches and dizziness.
BTW, I think No Limits Fallacy can be taken farther or disregarded when dealing with magic, because, well, it’s magic.
(AHEM, I know the One Power is more like the Force, but still.)
Balefire cannot be blocked or deflected by magical shields no matter how strong. That’s a fact.
If richard somehow miraculasly managed to get a subtractive shield in place to block the balefire it’s wizard’s web will be consumed by the balefire -before- the balefire hits it, leaving him defenseless.
Not that richard is likely to raise said shield, given his handicaps.
A No LImits Fallacy is when a phenomenon that is poorly understood or has not yet encountered any limits is extrapolated to infinity. Balefire being unstoppable isn’t a No Limits Fallacy; it’s exactly what is stated in the canonical books of the Wheel of Time. Nothing can stop it, no magical shields, no armor, no weaves, nothing. The closest thing is the indestructible Cuendillar, which balefire reflects off of and keeps going, probably to avoid the paradox of an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. Since Richard doesn’t have any Cuendillar on him, and has never really used magical shields anyway, the odds of him somehow blocking balefire are next to zero.
In addition, as galorian said, balefire has the advantage of removing whatever it touches from temporal existence, something that subtractive lightning cannot do. If balefire hit a web of subtractive lightning, then said lightning would no longer have existed in recent history, and thus, balefire encountered no resistence, nothing happened to start a paradox, Richard never counterattacked, Rand is unharmed, and Richard is no just a memory.
I didn’t say that balefire was necessarily made of the same subtractive magic seen in SoT, just that it would be ‘considered’ to be subtractive in nature and function by the standards of SoT. In SoT, any magic that destroys or takes away from the world is subtractive, and that is what balefire does. The True Power doesn’t fit quite as well, because it can be used for non-destructive purposes as well as destructive, though it is primarily harmful.
“Sorry for the triple post, but I forgot something. AHEM, if I were to decide to write a short story about this duel, would you be able to help me out a little? You are easily as knowledgeable about both universes as I am, and I would be grateful to have your help on such a subject.”
What kind of help?
Mainly a proof read to make sure I haven’t made any mistakes in terms of the characters and their abilities.
“Mainly a proof read to make sure I haven’t made any mistakes in terms of the characters and their abilities.”
Sure, I suppose I could do that.
Well, this thread isn’t getting nearly the attention I hoped it would. Either way, we’ve decided that Richard can’t really do anything against balefire, whereas Rand could block anything that Richard threw at him. If no one has anything to add in defense of Richard, I nominate the Dragon Reborn for the FP award.
seconded.
I hope admin won’t be too bummed out by this turn of events.
I third the nomination for Rand al’Thor for the FP award.
They’re fairly even with swords, and Rand owns with magic.
My knowledge is severly handicapped on these two subjects, what are they’re powers?
Additionally, Rand is Ta’veren, so Richard could trip and brake his neck
Factpile award? Already? But we haven’t really gotten any arguments in favor of Richard yet! And I barely even scratched the surface of how these two would fight it out with magic.
C’mon, seriously, surely someone will defend the Lord Rahl? Admin? Anyone?
I already added my bit Ahem. Imo, it comes down to the fact that Rand has an ability that can’t be blocked by Richard, being Balefire, whereas Richard has no moves that Rand can’t blocked, based on your argument against subtractive lightening, which I happen to agree with. While I’m sure that the battle could go either way, given battlefield uncertainties such as chance, I’m inclined to go with logic on this, and logically, Rand can block Richard, Richard can’t block Rand.
To be completely honest, the only reason I supported Richard in the first place was so that Rand would be eligible for the FP award, as the FP award can not be given in a match that does not have opposing arguments. However, my arguments for Richard have been easily brushed aside by your logic, and theres nothing else I can see Richard doing to save his own hide.
Surely, Richard is a great warrior, but I don’t personally have much respect for him as a mage when sizing him up against Rand. For me, Richard’s greatest strengths were always his ideals, not to mention his ferocious sword play. However, in almost any universe, magic will trump sword play on any given day.
When it comes down to the blade, I know Richard would win. The most blade masters Rand has ever fought at once was anywhere from 3-5, I don’t remember the exact number, but I know it wasn’t more than 5, or less than 3. He was training in the royal Andor castle, and he technically lost after receiving a blow to the head. Richard, however, fought with them two or three at a time, just as AHEM said, and massacred them all. The total number of blade masters was 50, if memory serves. With just a sword, I don’t think Rand could match that.
Magically, the most destructive force of magic I’ve seen Richard wield would be when he killed a small army in the old world with just a gesture and a bolt of subtractive lightening. Rand created a trolloc seeking electric cloud inside of Tear Keep, which killed god only knows how many trollocs. He also created a lightening storm outside Arad Doman that decimated the Seanchan army. He completely reformed miles upon miles of the land scape of the Aiel Waste when battling just one other forsaken. He left the Andor castle in ruins after going apeshit as a result of watching Matrim and Avhienda take a lightening bolt to the face.
Then we have the difference in attitude. Richard does what he thinks is necessary to live with Kahlan in peace. Rand believes that his death has already been decided, and that there is nothing he can do to stop it. Rand believes that he must be hard, emotionless, a stone cold killer, with no reservations about doing anything so long as it forwards his goals. He was willing to wipe out an entire castle with a massive wave of balefire, just to kill one forsaken… maybe. Balefire is the worst fate someone in the Wheel of Time universe could have. It completely takes your thread out of the wheel, taking away your existence, and your chance for rebirth. Rand goes into every situation as explosively as possible. Even his once close friends are now frightened of him. Against such a monstrous personality, wielding such insane powers, Richard wouldn’t have a single clue what to do. He would be torn apart from the inside out before he even had a chance to think. Rand is a nuke, while Richard is ground zero. Long live the Lord Dragon Reborn.
Long Live Richard Rahl and Long Dead Rand. That’s how I sized up your explanation on how these two charaters are compared to one another. It must really be the works of the author’s imagination in putting those awesome powers in their characters. Imagine Rand being that invincible and so monstrous at the same time. No qualms about destroying universes. Universes, my dear. And humans of course! I’m not surprised Richard Rahl keeps on saying “I hate magic”. He must really be coming to a level already that he is now getting to understand what this awesome gift can do to him and to his soul. Only in my nightmares!
@Elin
How about you actually start contributing to the discussions instead of providings us with these…errr…I don’t know what to call them.
Anyways I’ll be blunt. Are you infatuated with Richard Rahl? The very few comments you made on this site indicate that…
You know he’s not real, right?
Hi. Me again. I’m really awed at the level of powers the heroes of these battles possess. And I get to see how “insignificant” on how it looks and described in the books, R. Rahl’s powers compared to them. i read the books of SOT and I like how the author describes how the power is acquired, learned and used. I have’nt read the other books actually except the books on Starwars. In both SOT and Starwars, the authors’ description is for me more real that just a pigment of imagination. I read a lot of books on metaphysics, mind power, inner mind, theophysics, whatver comes on hand that has everything to do with hidden yet potent powers of man (i.e., the gifted). These books I mentioned somehow describes how powers are learned and used, based on certain principles and logic. Yes, logic! I was even surprised that the books even mentioned mathematical principles and the use of continuum ratios (hope i got it right). The truth is I love the vales and principles imbedded in these books. The Jedis’ and the Seeker’s principles. They’re immortal. How can anyone beat them?
“The Jedis’ and the Seeker’s principles. They’re immortal. How can anyone beat them?”
Balefire? Not the Priniciples, but those who stand by them.
Thanks Blood Dancer. I do love Richard Rahl and Anakin Skywalker. I thought this discussion wiould cover not just the “displayed and known” to us powers of the characters. Whatabout getting out of the box and probe on the yet to be known “unknown” powers of our heroes.
@Elin
Thinking outside the box….You do know that what we do in this site is put characters from different universes (we’ve even had facebook vs myspace) up against each other and have them fight to the death, which is pretty much the case here as well. Sometimes matche don’t involve any fighting at all – We’ve had a chess match. But yeah, thinking outside the box here….This a straight-forward fight.
Would Richard Rahl be able to use a Mord Sith?
“I do love Richard Rahl and Anakin Skywalker.”
Anakin Skywalker is a b*tchy, whiny, depressed, evil, and all around bad guy. In no movie has he ever acted like a Jedi, and the closest was episode 1.
BTW, why did you bring up Anakin in the first place?
@JA, no, a Mord Sith would certainly be considered to be outside help, which is not allowed in these duels unless specifically stated. For this battle, all Richard, and Rand for that matter, has is himself.
@Aelfinn
Elin is in love with them. Seriously just go check her comments in Rahl’s fights against Byakuya Kuchiki and Vin. You’ll see it.
@JA
It’s outside help. By the way it is Rahl’s book version not Legend of the Seeker
“The total number of blade masters was 50, if memory serves. With just a sword, I don’t think Rand could match that.”
It was 30.
@Admin, I think the Factpile award or SOME award needs to be given when, very quickly, logic has made one side win over the other.
I think I can come to the aid of Rahl, but I need a bit more time.
In either sword fighting or magic Rand wins. A whole slue of past generations and knowledge and experience up against one dude.
Yeah, Rand wins.
ah I have been awaiting this battle for a long time……
On the surface it seems as if Rand would win at full power and Richard would win in a blade fight. I will have to go into detail another time. While Ricard Rahl has the skills to defeat Rand in an all out sword match I dont think that His Magic will suffice against Rand….Its a 50/50 win win for both depending on what they do. But this would be an epic battle to watch from a long long distance away.
At least Rahl would force Rand to go all out, unlike alot of characters out there.
“On the surface it seems as if Rand would win at full power and Richard would win in a blade fight. I will have to go into detail another time. While Ricard Rahl has the skills to defeat Rand in an all out sword match I dont think that His Magic will suffice against Rand….Its a 50/50 win win for both depending on what they do. But this would be an epic battle to watch from a long long distance away.”
Maybe Richard could take this at close range, but I doubt he could match Rand magically. Rand has a lot of abiliites than Richard could not duplicate, as well as the memories of Lew Therin Telemon inside his head (kind of like Richard’s blade skills, only for magic instead), and more raw power. The biggest feat of magic Richard performed was killing +1000 horsemen at once. Rand has slaughtered armies of Trollocs many times that size, reformed landscapes, and inflicted sufficient casualities on a vast Seanchan army by himself to force them to retreat.
I have read the wheel of time and am anticipating the next one out, and have read the Sword of Truth all the way up to the law of nines, the match would be a very extensive and highly destructive match.
Both men have a sword that can’t be broken, yet cuts through anything, neither man wears armor to encumber him in battle. They both only use one weapon, and use it two handed.
Magic usage would have to be given to Rand, he knows and remembers how to use his specials weaves, Richard only uses his magic through need, i would imagine he would see the need fairly early on in the fight, but there’s no telling how he would use it, he isn’t inclined to kill as quickly as Rand is. Also, there’s no telling if their individual magics would even do anything to the others, they are both completely different types, Rand weaves his, and Richard envisions his, both completely differrent.
The sword fight would be long and arduous, Rand can embrace a newly cleansed saidin, that doesn’t make him try an puke, and use his enhanced abilities tied together with Lans teachings. Richard can call upon the vast numbers of dead mens memories and enter the Dance with Death. So the actual sword fight might be given to Rand due to the fact that he has Saidin embraced and he won’t physically tire out until his body shuts down completely. Richard has been known to tire, it might be a long time until he does, but he will eventually become to exhausted to fight anymore, i’m betting on this happening before Rand collapses.
The area of battle (The Aiel Waste) gives Rand the “homefield advantage”, he has trained and lived there and is used to the heat and dryness offered by the land, the arid landscape might make Richard tire even faster.
All-in-all, i’m going to have to give the battle to Rand ‘al Thor, he just has too many things going for him and Richard has to many things going against him.
So what im thinking and hearing is in a purely physical sword fight Richard takes it unless Rand is using one of his Saidin swords but in terms of magic Rand wipes the floor with Richard….. how felicitous….
here’s a twist for you all to consider. rand at the pinacle of his power vs richard as he is inside the temple of the winds. discus….
Well, it’s been eleven days without a post on this duel. In my opinion, there has been sufficient evidence given that the Dragon Reborn would be victorious in this battle.
So, once again, I nominate Rand al’Thor for the FP Award.
The Temple of the Winds Rahl is an interesting factor to consider, and might bring in some new pros and cons for Rahl in this battle. Possibly a hope spot for Rahl, right there.
Admin, you’d better hurry up if you’re going to defend Rahl. If he doesn’t get some support soon, it looks ilke this is going to end with Rand winning because no one can muster up any good arguments for Rahl.
@admin
Is Rand going by current incarnation in the sword duel? If he is then he has nochance in the sword duel, becuase he only has one hand and wilds a sword intended for 2 hand use. But, if we allow Rand to be able to fight the sword portion of the duel with two hands, I believe he may have a bit of an edge. Most people are underestimating the significance of the home field advantage Rand has. Anyone that has gone from a generally mild climate to a hot dry climate to do hard physical labor can tell you, it is very tiring. The Aiel Waste is almost definitely drier and hotter than Texas, with Rand’s experience in the waste and ability to at least partially ignore the fatigue and heat that will be affecting Richard may give him the edge that he will need to win the sword part of the duel. But the full power portion of the match easily goes to Rand.
i don’t see the home field advantage as being any factor since richard has spent much time in places very similar to this through out the sot series. the daharan plains, the oldworld being hot, the deserts in pillars of creation, and he never had any trouble there. in fact that’s where he killed +1000 men with lightning.
if rand only has one hand, that would severely put him at a disadvantage for the sword fight part of the arguement. and is there any reason why richard’s +3000 yrs. of fighting experience wouldn’t out skill rand? and with richard fighting the blade masters; he didn’t want to kill them, he actually fought for quite a while just parrying and dodging their attacks, finally to try to get them to stop he started making precise attacks like slashing legs and cutting off arms still trying not to kill. finally when he saw they wouldn’t stop he started to kill them and in the prossess of killing them the sword started to “speak” to him and that is how he learned the dance with death(which is not a style as many think but a state of mind, commit himself to his feelings and call forth the knowledge of all those who wielded the Sword of Truth before him) meaning he didn’t even have the knowledge and skill of +3000 years of seekers while beating the blade masters, whom trained everyday from childhood. The Sword also instills and amplifies great anger and rage thereby giving the one wielding it added strength, agility and conviction.WFR.
bael fire is a no limit fallacy since it was claimed as unstoppable in the books and in this fight it is going up against magic that is completely different, and not in their world to compare it against. same goes for richard’s subtractive lightning against rand’s deffenses. the only logical thing to do (i think) is consider both equal enough to cancel each other out.
i don’t know how fast bael fire travels but the only way anyone dodged lightning in the sot books is by interpreting where it was being fired by judging the opponents body language. i’m not sure but i’m guessing rand is just as capable as richard in doing this. and since i doubt bael fire is faster than lightning both characters in theory should be able to dodge these attacks once in a while with no way of knowing who would mess up first.
assuming a sword fight would go on until someone collapses or tires too much doesn’t make sense. don’t know if it happened in rand’s series but it didn’t happen in richard’s, at least not against one person. hundreds yes, but with one on one, someone will learn and exploit the others weaknesses.
richard’s magic works off of need and or anger and richard’s magical accomplishments seem to be given far less credit than they are worth too. there’s the +1000 men he killed with lightning, the barrier between the old and new worlds hundreds of miles long standing for over 3000 yrs. created by thousands of wizards giving up their lifes and power willingly to create, he took down. not to mention when angry or in need his subconsiousness casts spells such as when he thought the aydindril (probably spelled wrong) counsel beheaded kahlan, he charged through the castle blasting through guards and gigantic doors with walls ripping away with them using some sort of air concusive blast; he described it as just kind of happening as he was running(not having to think about it or do any specific moves and or materials to cast). he also creates new magic, can’t remember something to do with the chimes and some guy that was on a different plane of existance by a lake?( if anyone remembers help fill me in on the specifics of it).
so basically with dodging, need and or anger stopping or equalling rand’s magic it won’t take long for richard to cover the distance and finish him off at close range.
if richard has his bow with him given to him by “the bird man” of the mud people(nothing special about the bow though) he could use it to his advantage too. one part of his gift he did master(in the first book) was being able to hit anything exactly where he wanted to with a bow, within the bow’s range.
and i’m guessing this isn’t taking richard at the end of the series when he has the power of orden. this would be over in a thought then. at the end of the book he gained the power, then righted all wrongs(generalized), made a new universe, telleported millions of people there and then gave up the power. he was at his strongest like 20 pages before the end(estimate) but gave it up because he isn’t power hungry.
turning the sword of truth white has no power other than showing that the one that does it is the true seeker, can kill ones you love(other wise you have to percieve them as an enemy), and activating the boxes of orden.
from jonny
“By the way, on my own suggestions for this battle, I meant cuendillar heron mark blade, not the blade of saidin that Rand is able to create. Mainly because the saidin blade could possibly cut right through the Sword of Truth.”
-the sword of truth is considered unbreakable also. and even though rand’s wouldn’t break(if it is unbreakable, i havent read much rand) the only sword that didn’t break like balsa wood against the sword of truth was a sword forged by an extremely powerful sorceress who had made a deal with the Keeper, from 100 bloody sword tips of the armory of the Palace of the Prophets. his sword also has blocked magic and cannot be destroyed by anything in their world(won’t say anything since that would be non limit fallacy) leaving me to believe it could parry rand’s power wrought blade of fire(from what i get from the earlier post it’s like a lightsaber) meaning it wouldn’t just go through and hit him behind it.
that should suffice as a good defense for richard and if i do say so myself a very good argument for him to win also.
@ Mike, If Rahl has the boxes of Orden, then Rand has the Choedan Kal. This would give him enough power to fight God. The kind of god that Christianity has.
Or if not that, then the True Power. I believe it has been stated to be as powerful as the Choedan Kal. Not sure though.
With the bow, Rand just stops the arrow in mid-air.
Balefire isn’t No Limits Fallacy. It isn’t poorly understood, and what you said would be like Rahl’s magic not working because Rand isn’t the same.
You do have a point with balefire being dodgeable. It has been reacted to. But can he dodge the next, and the next, and the next…
I second Rand for the Factpile Award.
well not sure about some of what i said now after finding this. from
www.terrygoodkind.com/forum/showthread.php?p=70677
just a guys opinion but he makes a good point for richard not only getting magic from need and or anger but from controlling it also. also a point about the boxes of orden, but still not sure if it’s being counted as a power in this fight.
“As to the other aspects of an earlier question, it’s also a safe bet that Richard has “understood” his power, it’s workings and the reality that he is it’s master. While to do not believe for an instant that Richard “knows all”, I feel that he’s learned that he can conceptualize and call his power knowing what he needs to accomplish. Much in the manor of his feat in SotF, creating new magic to accomplish what he needed. He’s just moved to the acceptance or and moved away from the reluctance of his Gift.
Another point I think that is being asked is, does Richard still have and control the power of Ordin. I think it’s also a very safe bet that the power remains with him and is his to command, as has been stated several times regarding the person who opens the correct box in previous books. As we noted in LoN’s there are several things that occurred after the initial transition of the POC’s and the IO to the new world, that indicate he still has/control’s said power. “
You said he gave the power up, and I know the choedan kal broke, so how about we leave them out?
As of before the end of The Gathering Storm, Rand had the CK and wasn’t afraid to use it, he almost erased his father’s soul from existence and destroyed a castle to kill one person. I know this is not totaly the most recent incarnation but without Tower of Darkness we can’t tell how Rand is.
As Aelfinn said bale fire is not no limit, culendar can survive and I think Rand made a sheild that may be able to survive, I can’t accuratly recal.
I’m not shure if anyone has said this, but as per the senario Rand almost certainly wins, even without sa/ter/angral and there is no orden boxes. In the Aiel waste there are lizards and snakes that can kill with one bite.
Rands advantages:
Dragon Reborn-past life experiences and great power
Ta’veren-bends chance and reality by being there
True Power-even stronger than the True Source
Blademaster-not shure haw one hand affects things
Warder-tires slower than normal men
If we ignore the senario Rand has
Angreal and Sa’angreal-magnify power
Also Rand couold open a portal into Tel’aran’rhiod and turn the environment against Richard.
Admin, you watching? The debate is starting back up again.
@Aelfinn
the boxes of orden do give richard the power of a god. absolute unchallanged power and authority over all things living and dead. not to mention all the other lesser powers like being able to create uninverses at will and many many others because of giving him an extreme amount of knowledge including full controll over his war wizard gift. all of this instantly. but that is all besides the point because as i said before i don’t think that any of this is involved in this fight. hence “Rand has a power forged sword (unbreakable) and no power enhancing items. Richard has the Sword of Truth. ” stated by the admin.
“With the bow, Rand just stops the arrow in mid-air. ” just saying he has that also, which would help occupy rand while richard runs at him from whatever distance they are starting at apart.
“Balefire isn’t No Limits Fallacy. It isn’t poorly understood, and what you said would be like Rahl’s magic not working because Rand isn’t the same.”
-i don’t think you understood me, to say balefire could not be stopped in this fight would by definition be non limit fallacy. since it has never encountered magics like in the sot series you couldn’t say with certanty that nothing could stop it. same as the subtractive magic in richard’s universe, only subtractive magic can stop it not additive. rand’s world hasn’t encountered it either so it wouldn’t be fair to say unless rand had the specific subtractive magic from richard’s universe he couldn’t stop it. it is non limit fallacy by definition. look it up even on this sites debate rules, think it’s # 17.
“You do have a point with balefire being dodgeable. It has been reacted to. But can he dodge the next, and the next, and the next…”
- i already addressed this earlier that they would both end up dodging balefire and lightning but there is no way to tell who would mess up first. that being said you didn’t address what i was inquiring about if rand has actually shown himself to dodge like this. in the post earlier i was giving him the benefit of the doubt waiting for someone who knew to set it straight.
can someone with considerable knowledge of rand and civil debating skills work this out with me?
yeah, i’m always in for a good richard fight, always turns out epic. and from everything i’ve read on here and in different threads rand seems almost like rahl in a different universe.
I have heard that comparison as well.
Anyone else gonna post? we could make this more interesting.
@Alfinn
Are you one of them snakey folk?
Finally, someone gets my name!!!!!!
I bugs me that I can’t remeber for shure which ones are the question and the giving.
Fox=question
Snake=gifts
Right?
Oddly, the snakes were the “good” people, they answered the questions.
The foxes were the gifts.
Especially odd because normally the reptiles are bad, and the mammals are good.
@NemoVonUtopia
stating things rand can do is not explaining how they would counter anything richard can do. i have just found this thread read everything in it and countered every reason why everyone previously thinks rand would win. and yes, someone stated that a few things in rands world could stop balefire, sorry. just was so much stuff about how it was unstoppable i figured i’d put down that aspect of it which was non limit fallacy. so there is no reason to assume that something rahl can do wouldn’t stop it either, including his sword now that i think about it. it’s stopped addative wizard’s fire and subtractive lightning too(being made of both sides itself).
I don’t know much about Rahl, but from what I know, the only thing that could stop balefire would be the sword, with its anti-magic abilities. But that might not work because balefire might remove protection. Could you please show how you went against everything said for Rand?
@Aelfinn
“Could you please show how you went against everything said for Rand?”
stuff in post #67 & #73
Well given that my knowledge of Richard is linited to scanning this thread and a few episodes of Ledgend of the Seaker, I figured that someone else colud list his stuff. All ive seen is fire and sub. lightning which is much like things Rand can counter.
@Aelfinn
1) Why are there mosquitoes?
2)What is the question of which the answer is 43?
3)When is Nynaeve gonig to stop being annoying?
oh, don’t even go by the legend of the seeker show. not only was it stated by admin it was the book version of richard, to give you an example of how much they mutilated his abilities i’d be willing to bet me, Aelfinn, and NemoVonUtopia could beat him. hell they, in the first season of the show, acomplished what the book finally did in the 12th; open the boxes of orden, and then decided to make it some kind of jedi mind control or something. they don’t even have the same family in that show. darken rahl is supposed to be his father not brother. his mom was supposed to have died in a fire when he was a kid. ahhhhh, i could go on forever about it but i won’t. my point is legend of the seeker is to the sot series as a nasa space shuttle is to a super star destroyer in star wars.
@NemoVonUtopia
1) to keep pansies out of minnesota
2)21+22
3) don’t know who Nynaeve is but it is the nature of all things to always be who they are unless hit on the head really hard or death(sometimes caused from the hard hit to the head)
BAMMM!!!
@ NemoVonUtopia
1) Are you talking about Lilo and Stitch?
2) Do you mean 42?
3) When Lan dies.
I mentioned it to show my complete ignorence of Richard and thus why I didn’t talk about counters.
” to keep pansies out of minnesota”
Meh, they arn’t as bad as Texan mosquitos, I can’t believe I am saying this but even though Minnesotan mosquitos are bigger (cringe); however, Texan mosqitos are ninjas. I went camping in Minn/Canada, I woke up and easily killed 15 or so mosquitos. Now in Texas, even if I know its there, I can’t see it. (BTW do you know why I asked those questions?)
nope not at all, just sounded interesting to answer
@Mike
In WoT there is a door that leads to the land of the Aelfinn and they will answer 3 questions. There is also the Elfinn that grant 3 wishes but arn’t trustworthy(they’ll try to kill you)
@Aelfinn
Dangit, I wasted a question.
I’ve looked through all the WoT related thread and it makes me sad to see how few comments there are.
so can anyone counter the points i made about richard taking rand?
@Mike
Besides balefire, Rand has a multitude of ways to dispatch Richard with the One/True Power. Removing all the air around/inside Richard, Destroying the ground Richard is standing, ripping Richard apart inside out, Shooting rapid-fire streams of fire at Richard, lightning, and many more ways. Oh, he can do all of those at once. He can also most likely cut Richard off from his magic, not sure how SoT magic works. Also while he is doing all of his destructive weaves he can also have a protective barrier around him, I think AHEM said Rand tanked nuclear level explosions with it. Also saying that the barrier might not protect from Richard’s lightning is also saying that balefire would also not be blocked.
After a bit of sword fighting, Rand would realize he probably wouldn’t defeatRichard that way and would turn it into a hand-to-hand ground game fight, by tackling richard after a parry or such. Rand’s extensive training with Aiel would almost certainly guarantee him a victory in that fight. Although that situation probably wouldn’t happen. Rand has also been bonded twice, not sure if the effects stack, so him being a warder gives him increased endurance, strength, speed, and he is able to suffer much more damage before dying than a normal human.
This is how I see the chances, with the information given on RIchard in this thread.
Swordfight Rand’s chances 35-40% Richard’s 60-65%
Full Power Rand 95% Richard 5% (I am being generous to Richard here)
Rand is very skilled with the sword, has boosted physical attributes due to being a warder, and would use the void in the fight to ignore outside influences. On the magic part, Rand completely outclasses Richard, without using the True Power. If he used the True Power in the full power match Richard would stand almost no chance.
you must not have read what was posted for either side, or at least not understood it. no hand to hand would happen and if it did richard’s 3000+ years of experience skills and knowledge aren’t restricted to swords, just fighting in general. if it came to a wrestling match it would be over very quickly, since richard doesn’t need to hold the sword of truth to access it’s powers, they are always with him after he mastered it in the second book in his series.
listing off all of the magic spells rand can do isn’t a counter to what i said richard can do, the things i said richard can do was to counter anyone doing just that. yes they both have magic and yes they both can use it. every spell you say rand can do has been done in the sot series and within the capabilities of richard. you did nothing to counter my point of keeping him busy with spells and or arrows until getting close to finish him off.
sword fight richard has more experience and two hands so he beats him.
magic is a wash because he is just as powerfull as rand and could at least counter (please don’t say i’m assuming, in the books zedd describes war wizards as having their gift manifest whatever it is needed to win whatever they are doing) and it comes as need, anger, and from his subconsious just doing things for him.
and if you want to bring the one true power into it, that would be completely trumped by the power of orden. which gives richard (quote from the books)===
“If Rahl opens the correct box, he gains the magic of Orden, the magic of life itself, the power over the living and the dead. He will have unchallenged power and authority. He will be a master with immutable dominion over all people. Anyone he does not like, he will be able to kill with a thought, in any matter of his choosing, wherever that person is, no matter how far away.”
not to mention many many other powers including but not limited to: creating other universes instantly, teleporting millions of people at a time, cancelling any magic in the world he wanted, bringing structures from the underworld(hell)to the living world, bringing if he wanted the keeper(satan) to the living world, completely controling the mind of anyone(immutable dominion) ….etc….
so you didn’t counter anything either. just stated spells rand knows, made up a fantasy fight scene about wrestling and (not your fault) didn’t know how powerfull the power of orden was.
if you would address my points, i’d be happy to address any you will come up with also.
“magic is a wash because he is just as powerfull as rand and could at least counter”
If you look at AHEM’s post a few above your first post you will see him show that Rand is more powerful than Richard in magic. Without any angreal or sa’angreal too.
Box of Orden is not applicable to this match, but Rand can access the True Power now, not that he would need to. You are approaching fanboyism for Richard, if you haven’t already hit that point. You haven’t countered Rand’s magic, all you have said is that somehow Richard would be able to counter his magic, but have given no evidence to back up those claims.
once again you are speaking of what you don’t know, you should have asked what the temple of the winds was(TOW). richard’s amount power never changed, the temple of the winds just gave him the knowledge to use his powers consiously and perfectly. richard is just as powerfull as the war wizards of old and they(and a few things in his current timeline) have done things comparable to what rand has done. not to mention things that richard has done as i have stated earlier also.
if it is a full power match rand can have his true power and rahl can have his orden power, simple as that, because it’s both of their full powers.
true i do like the SOT books but all i have done is show you ways he could defeat rand and you call me a fan boy. sounds desperate.
and in the evidence to back up how rahl would counter rand’s magic all you have to do is read earlier posts where i DID address it. if you don’t have anything new to add, i’d perffer not to argue with you at this time.
@Krazycrismore
maybe you can help me out with something else on here. how do you get a pic for your avatar or gravatar pic box?
“if it is a full power match rand can have his true power and rahl can have his orden power, simple as that, because it’s both of their full powers.”
Full power match as in not just sword fighting, but also magic. In the description all it said Richard had was the Sword of Truth, no box, and that Rand has no power enhancing items, angreal or sa’angreal. By your logic full power Rand would be when he was drawing power through both Choeden Kal, in book 9. Then he was using magic on the level that if his concentration slipped he would almost certainly destroyed the world.
The site is gravatar.com
sorry for triple post, but where did you say anything about Richard countering magic, I have read through your posts, and didn’t find anything about it. But I may have missed it.
post # 4 admin said “Sure, let’s make one fight a sword battle and the second all powers available.” and with richard having the power of orden it would be over as quick as a thought. doesn’t matter the level of devastation rand can produce, he could literally have a nuke and it wouldn’t matter. you’ll have to correct me if i’m wrong on this but didn’t rand get the “one true power” after the Choeden Kal and wasn’t it more powerfull anyways? on some other thread someone quoted when he got it and that he didn’t need the sword or whatever it was anymore to harness the power.
thanks for the gravatar thing too.
If Richard has the powers from the box of Orden, then Rand could just balefire him with enough force to remove him from existence to a point before he opened the box, removing him from having that power. And no, you haven’t given adequate reasons on why balefire wouldn’t work on Richard.